514. Who Is Profiting from Trump's Iran Catastrophe?

21:04Rory Stewart:Horrible. Horrible. But the reason this has a bigger ramification is that the fundamental demand from Iran is going to be, we will not accept being Gaza or Lebanon. So in these negotiations that they're trying to do with Trump and through all their intermediaries, what they're saying is, yes, we can give up a nuclear program. That's the one thing, the one kind of win they can give Trump. Although they're complaining that Trump's team doesn't seem to understand the technical specificities. So there's a real demand actually from the Gulf for the Europeans to get involved and try to act as translators for Wyckoff and Kushner to understand what the Iranians are trying to offer here.

21:44Rory Stewart:They will give up the nuclear program, but their conditions are very tough. One of those conditions is they don't want any of these Gulf countries to continue to host US bases, which is almost unimaginable for the Gulf countries. But the second thing is not just the US stops its operations, but the US undertakes to make Israel stop because what they're not prepared to have is a situation which is what they feel Israel did in Gaza, which is a ceasefire or what they did in Lebanon, which is to say, oh, we're suspending hostilities. But any day when Netanyahu wants to get out of bed in the morning and bomb Iran, he gets to do it with no warning and no justification.

22:19This piece from this guy, Phil Clay, because he's struggling. He's sort of going through, well, is it this and is it that? And Rubio said this and Vance said this, and I can't work out what they're trying to do. And his conclusion, he says that the one rationale that has remained absolutely clear and absolutely consistent throughout is a delight, particularly for Trump and Hexerth, in American domination and violence. He says, power does not grow out of the barrel of a gun. Cruelty is not the same as strength. And a politics built on such ideas promises ruin, delusion about the limits of our power, and a betrayal of the promise of our founding.

22:56And there is something, when you watch Hexerth doing those briefings, particularly he wraps himself in God and starts reading from the Bible, it is a sense of the glorification of the violence per se. And I think that is why this idea from Besser that this is the basis for some sort of new Middle East peace process is literary for the birds. But these people you're talking to, are these the talks that Britain were partly involved in largely through Jonathan Powell? Or are these the talks that Trump is referring to in saying that's where we've made progress? Or are they one and the same thing?

23:29Rory Stewart:There's a whole series of separate conversations going on, and it's extremely difficult to coordinate. But the Gulf countries are trying to develop a unified position. They're very, very aware that their biggest threat, or they feel, maybe not a big threat, but they feel one of the big threats is divide and rule. The Iranians are trying to do it. They haven't really struck Qatar in the last two days, or Oman. They're saying Qatar and Oman are the good guys. UAE are the bad guys. They're trying to say, you know, because Bahrain is - And where are the Saudis in there? Well, Saudis, they've been hitting harder, which is making Saudi very angry and Saudis just expelled.

24:02And where are they on this suggestion that the Saudis were quietly happy that this strike happened? The initial strikes.

24:11Rory Stewart:Well, that the Saudis are now denying. I mean, I don't have any insight into the center of their government. And a lot of this is very centered around Mohammed bin Salman. If they did think that, they're certainly now denying it because it doesn't look like such a good idea anymore. They're trying to hold together there. And what they're trying to do, I think, is to think about what happens next. The likely scenario, I'm afraid, is the one that you're spelling out, which is that Trump returns to this war, and that he's actually driven by Netanyahu back into this war. Or he's driven by events. Or he's driven by events.

24:38He's driven by the Iranians doing something. He's driven by a mistake somewhere else. You don't feel that anybody's in control here. I also think there's an opportunity. I mean, let me try something else on you. Is it impossible, do you think, for the leaders that we talk about a lot. Europe, Kani, Albanese, the new Japanese Prime Minister Takechi, South Korea. Is it impossible for them to come up with some joint position and insert themselves more deeply somehow into these negotiations? And the joint position starts from the premise that this war should not have happened. But since it has happened, we now all have to find the ways to bring it to an end.

25:19So that means actually calling out Trump.

25:22Rory Stewart:Yeah. Well, I think calling out Trump's very important because I think one of the problems that Starmer's got himself in is because he didn't speak clearly. He said, I wouldn't participate, but he didn't speak clearly about his horror and condemnation. He's allowing himself to be portrayed as a coward, as though he's sort of weaseling out of it instead of taking a clear principal position. But the bigger point I think is a good opportunity is that the Gulf countries will be looking for partners after this. They're not partnering with the US in the same way that they did in the past. They can't.

25:53Rory Stewart:Their view of these US bases has been completely changed from opportunities to risks. And they really appreciate what Europe's done. They're very grateful. In fact, in many ways, what it's taught them over the last two weeks is that Europe actually has been quite a reliable security partner. There's been praise for the UK and its joint air force squadrons. They're praising what the French have done. They're praising what the Italians have done. And actually, there are other European countries who've done, the Greeks have done stuff helping to defend the Saudis. So they would really like to come out of this in a world in which they really strengthen.

26:28Rory Stewart:And this goes back to your four-cornered thing. They would like to bet on Alex Stubbs with a sort of European vision. And so there will be a huge opportunity to say, this is the moment to reach out to Qatar, Saudi, UAE, and bind them more closely into a Canada-European-South Korean framework. But to get there, they're very, very complimentary about Jonathan Powell and what he's doing. They are horrified by the British Foreign Office and Yvette Cooper. For example, a statement was put out by the British on the Straits of Formus where they didn't bother to consult with the Gulf before they put out the statement.

27:06Rory Stewart:With the result, they put out the statement, then asked these countries to sign up afterwards and found that a couple of the countries would sign up, a couple wouldn't. There was no attempt to coordinate. This goes back to my problem from the beginning of this, which is if these middle powers that work together, they've got to coordinate. They've got to talk to each other, show each other some respect. You know, we talked about Mark Carney, who I think is, you know, was one of the first ones out there and he was kind of... Well, he was very, he sounded pretty pro-Trump. He sounded quite supportive and he's now in a completely different position saying we're having nothing to do with this.

27:34I just think that maybe there has to be, this has to become part of this sort of, if we are genuinely going through creating a new world order in which America is not a reliable ally and which international rules have to be re-fought for and re-defended. I think it's very interesting. This week, for example, Richard Herman, the Attorney General, who's probably the closest thing that Keir Star must have, a genuine friend in the government, close friend, going back years and years and years. There's a piece in one of the papers today, and he's got a big speech this week where he's absolutely making the case for human rights, international law.

28:05And I don't know whether the speech is going to mention Trump by name, but it's very, very clear what he's talking about. He's talking about Iran. Now, I think that that is the right position to be in, but I think it's the opportunity to build. I mean, I'd love it if Keir Starmer and maybe got together with, I don't know, Mertz and Carney and Albanese and said, let's have an international conference on what we mean by international law.

28:28Rory Stewart:And the Gulf, right? I don't want to leave the Gulf out because it's a miracle over the last 40 years what they've done with their countries. They are vital to our security. They're vital to the global economy. They have so much to contribute. They're such important investors in our economy, it would be criminal not to include them. But where I'm worried, there are two things. First, the British government would have to be interested in building institutional structures. So actually thinking about how you coordinate and create structures to coordinate, I've heard it before. Rather than doing things ad hoc, yep, first thing.

29:01Rory Stewart:And that's, I think, the question with Jonathan Powell, who's been an incredible national security advisor. But can he move from being the firefighter who's in the negotiations, sorting out the things, to designing the institutional structure and working out how Britain plays? And secondly, resources, the spending on our diplomats, the spending on our international development, which we'll get onto in tomorrow's episode. But Britain's not going to be able to do this, create these institutions, do the soft power, unless it's prepared to put some resources behind it. And all the evidence, unfortunately, is that Starmer both doesn't think in these big institutional terms.

29:40Rory Stewart:He doesn't like talking in big abstract vision terms, unlike Carney. But secondly, the evidence of the budget suggests he's not prepared to put any money behind it. I sort of woke up in the middle of the night on this idea. Could we put together a coalition of sensible to take on Trump. You know, the other thing that's not been - But you've also got to stand up to him. I was really struck. You saw some people that we both know right at the center of our security establishment who said, and I was really struck by this when we went off to see the Spanish prime minister, that one of them had said to you, well, what's going to happen to Spain when they get attacked?

30:14Rory Stewart:Is America going to help them? I then realized that that was exactly what the US Secretary of State shouted at the British ambassador in Washington when Wilson refused to join the Vietnam War. This is a very old story. 55 years of the US saying, unless you come along with our illegal wars, we're not going to help you if you're attacked. And the fact that our security establishment is still believing that line, which I thought had been exploded in 1968, tells you an enormous amount about how vulnerable we are to being bullied and our inability to actually say clearly, hey, this is a war crime. This is disgusting.

30:52Rory Stewart:We're not having anything to do with it. Thank you very much. F off. Look, I think, I do think, I mean, look, you may not, you may have got very little credit for it, but I do think Keir Starmer's ended up in the right position. And it's interesting. I was at three funerals last week and at one of them, this guy who was a former journalist, now retired, and he came up to me and he said, God, I can't stand that Keir Starmer. I voted for him, but honestly, it really gets on my nerves. But I'll tell you what, I'm glad he's there at the moment. Well, it's definitely true compared to the – I mean, I definitely think – I felt James Cleverley, the Tory former foreign secretary, was on the wrong side of this on television.

31:27Farage is so far. He can't decide whether he's in love with Trump or in love with Putin. He's all over the place.

31:31Rory Stewart:No, I think some is much closer to where he should be, which is happening. But I think he could be much clearer. And if he talked more about values and explained why he's not there, it would be much easier to build these coalitions and mobilise him. given he is a lawyer, I'd quite like to hear him make the speech that Richard Hermer's making. My final point before we go to break, the environment. Five million tons of CO2 equivalent has been put into the atmosphere by the military activity so far. I think this is the bit that always gets lost in you got those raging fires going on. So anyway, I think we're in violent agreement here, Roy, that Donald Trump has made a complete arse of this.

32:10And he's tackoed, as they

32:13Rory Stewart:say. We want him in this case to back out. In a lot of these situations, we want him to back out. And this taunting him every time he threatens tariffs or threatens to go into Greenland or bombing Iran and says he's chickening out when he changes direction is really dangerous because the one thing that drives this guy is vanity and ego. He will have absolutely hated the clip. Did you see the clip by a gentleman from the name of Ebrahim Zolfagari, who is the official spokesman for the IRGC. Trump, you're fired. You're familiar with this sentence. Thank you for your attention to this matter. I think a bit of that doesn't do any harm with Trump.

32:52Rory Stewart:Yeah, I think let's just finish on the final thing, which is this is probably the most dangerous moment we've had for many, many decades. We are very close now to a serious global financial problem. We are very, very close to a wider conflict driving towards third world war-y stuff. We have leaders in Israel and in Iran and in the United States who find it very, very difficult to come to any kind of compromise, have a very absolutist, narcissistic worldview. they're nationalists of a very extreme sort. All the likelihood, as you say, unfortunately, is that we may lurch back into this and then it will deepen, the conflict will deepen because we'll start going deeper after desalination or widen because we'll start hitting more and more critical infrastructure.

33:43Rory Stewart:And our only hope is that for some reason, Trump manages to declare victory and go home. And then we have to make sure that peace remains, that Israel doesn't started again and that the Gulf and Europe create the institutional frameworks for peace. But that's a hell of a, hell of a ask. I was talking to a member of a European, not British, intelligence agency. And I said, do you think this is potential world war territory? And he said, I think we might be in it. And I think there's a very, very, that's my worry at the moment is this thing doesn't feel, there's not enough goodwill, there's not enough expertise, there's not enough people who have the capacity to get this to a better place.

34:29And Trump, and do you know what you said about the Vance, Rubio, Kushner, Wyckoff, all thinking that he's wrong? I mean, it's just pathetic. It's pathetic if between them, they cannot get this into a better place.

34:41Rory Stewart:And it still turns out that he seems to be right when he says MAGA is him, that 80 % of MAGA still seem to be on his side of this. right well to cheer ourselves up let's have a break and then talk about assisted dying very good that's the cheeriest thing you said in a long time this episode is brought to you by nord vpn spring is the season of movement travel shared networks systems that aren't ours when you operate inside infrastructure you don't control your vulnerability increases. Mobility increases exposure. A cyber attack happens every 39 seconds. In the UK, hundreds of cyber-enabled crimes are reported daily with around 4.5 million pounds lost each day to cybercrime.

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37:19Rory Stewart:This episode is brought to you by Whoop. And I'm speaking to you, I'm wearing a Whoop device on my wrist at the moment. Politics teaches you fairly quickly that attention is finite. When attention is drawn to the loud and urgent, it's easy to miss the deeper patterns shaping outcomes. And that applies to health as well. You keep going, you meet demands, you get through the day without noticing that the cost is quietly all adding up and taking a toll. Whereas WHOOP exists to bring background picture into focus, this thing on your wrist is there showing you how your body responds to everyday life, to sleep, to recovery, to strain, and how those rhythms and trends emerge over time.

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38:20Welcome back to The Restless Politics with me, Alistair Campbell.

38:23Rory Stewart:And with me, Rory Stewart. Now, Roy, the last time we talked about assisted dying, we broadly disagreed. I am in favour of Cameron Leadbeater's dying bill you were against, largely because of your fear that people might be coerced. yeah um now i think a lot of those concerns have been addressed in the bill as it's gone through the house of commons but i'm more interested in what's happening in the in the house of lords because i think it's an absolute abomination what is going on there so and i think now this bill is dead it's not going to happen because what's happened and there were major changes made as it went through the the elected chamber and it's now going to fail because of the tactics in the lords which i think will damage the lords and it's already very very low reputation so just on the process it's got to complete all stages in parliament by the end of april okay it can only be considered in the lords on a friday because it's a private members bill there are only two fridays left it's had 12 days of committee and it's only got to clause five of 60 clauses in the bill and and i think the labor whip in the house of lords has said forget it it's not gonna happen yeah and and one of the reasons is that its opponents put down over a thousand amendments and it's taken so long because lord's procedure requires that every amendment has to be debated if it is not withdrawn and because the opponents have been filibustering talking endlessly making the same points again and again and again.

40:02Rory Stewart:I know you said when we were before the break that it was conservative opponents, but I've noticed even people like Diane Abbott are against. There are. No, listen, I'm not saying it's... I think the organ... This is being organised. Right. Okay. You won't be surprised to know that one of the chief organisers of this whole thing is the current editor of The Spectator, Lord Gove. Lord Gove is very worried about this, isn't he? Well... I thought he was a very liberal Whig who didn't particularly care about these kinds of things. How is it described to me? And if I'm wrong, Michael, you can come on and explain yourself.

40:32I've not talked to Michael Gove about this, but how his position is presented to me by people who have is he's not that bothered about the issue. He's not sort of, it's not one of those issues that he's going to go to the barricades for, the issue of assisted dying, but that he is very much in favor of the whole filibustering and the approach that they're taking to kill the bill. Why? Because Michael Gove loves being at the centre of political drama.

40:58Rory Stewart:I'm slightly surprised by this whole thing, because I can see a particular kind of old-fashioned religious Tory feeling that there are strong religious or traditional oppositions. But Michael Gove, I never really saw in that category. So if you look at all these people, all of these hundreds of amendments, 56 % have been put down by eight peers. The top three are Baroness Finlay of Glandaf, who I think is a crossbencher, followed by Teresa Coffey, who was the ludicrously the deputy prime minister under the ludicrous Liz Truss, and then the former para-athlete Tanny Gray-Thompson. All very strong opponents.

41:39And okay, and one can respect their views. So these eight peers have put down 56%, just to give you a flavour of some of them. So there's one down, that everybody should have a pregnancy test before being allowed to have an assisted death, including men over 60. Don't ask me how that's going to work, but that is an amendment which clearly has to be debated. The death has to be filmed. Don't ask me. You should only be allowed an assisted death if you satisfy a panel of seven professionals. And if they disagree, you have to satisfy the High Court. now the bill has had more than enough time to get through because it by the time this is all over it would have had 16 days of debate over 100 hours way more than most bills get in the lords and more than it had in the commons where a lot of changes were made so these poor laws have been getting dragged in night after night to listen to speeches by i'll give you the main offenders on the speaking front mark harper remember him i do remember tory chief whip lost his seat gets bunged into the House of Lords as a consolation.

42:44He's been making dozens of speech. Sheila Lawler, know her? Right-wing think tank, stuck in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson. Claire Fox, right-wing libertarian, stuck in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson.

42:57Rory Stewart:Presumably, this isn't some great piece of Kemi Baden-Ock's Conservative Party strategy. I don't know. I don't know. It wouldn't really sit like that. This is a private members bill. It's not Labour legislation. It's a private members bill about a sister dying. this is a small group of people i think who have decided i wonder if part of it is the religiousization of our politics to some extent who have decided they're just going to stop this bill now they may have they may have very strong views and they may have good reasons and they may have principles that's all fine but when it's gone through the commons in the way that it's gone and when it is then going through the lords and it is that you literally have people standing up making the same speech that they made before and the difference with the lords in the commons The speaker doesn't have that function to tell people to shut up or that it's repetitive.

43:43You can stand up and talk for as long as you want. That's what they've done. Is there no time limits in the laws?

43:47Rory Stewart:I think there are time limits. Maybe time limits. Then you just get Teresa stands up, Mark Harper stands up, and Claire Fox stands up, and they just pop up all night. One thing listeners need to understand is this is a private members bill. It's not a bill which the Labour government got behind. It's not in its manifesto. So if the government was behind the bill and it was part of manifesto commitment, it would have to go through the House of Lords on Parliament Act. And if the government really wanted to get behind it, they can force this through the House of Lords. They've chosen not to for perfectly honorable reasons, which is they've decided this is a question of conscience.

44:23Rory Stewart:And in fact, the Labour cabinet split on it. West Streeting voted against, others voted in favor. and the opposition from the House of Commons. I think they won by 31 votes, so it's relatively close to the House of Commons. So constitutionally, this is the type of bill which the House of Lords has the constitutional ability, if it wants, to block. The question is, should it, right? Now, I suppose I want to move it from the... Are you confident that you can distinguish your personal views on the bill from your constitutional views? For example, what was your view when, during Brexit, the House of Lords was buggering around and putting in lots of amendments to try to stop the house of commons vote on brexit uh i probably was thinking yeah let's keep the debate going but i think no i think i am i think i am able to separate it because i think that this is a bill that's now gone through every stage in the commons it has been substantially amended so for example you're worried about coercion the measures in the bill now on coercion are stronger than in any country that has assisted dying the the costs element to the national health service which i I think, are way exaggerated, including, I'm afraid, by West treating.

45:29I think if you look at other countries where this has happened, there's not been that cost. And the debate, the other big debate that pushed all the time is we should be focusing much more on palliative care. The evidence of where assisted dying is now happening is that because it means people are talking more about death, that palliative care services have improved alongside it.

45:48Rory Stewart:So I think it's a good argument for always for institutional reform of the House Lords. Famously, the one thing I liked about the House Lords, which is the hereditary peers, been thrown out. So there's nothing really left. Why did you like that? What's the only reason for it? What was the House of Lords? It's called a House of Lords, for goodness sake. I mean, what is it? It was a historical traditional inheritance. It was like the monarchy. It's just part of our whole heritage. I don't know if you know this, Roy, but the monarchy was removed from political power. Do you remember that? Well, it still has some sort of power.

46:15Rory Stewart:It has soft and a lot of soft power. So no, I can't see the point at all of a house of a bunch of retired politicians. I would like to see something that was much more like the crossbenchers. And I'd like to see it appointed and a proper scrutiny and genuine... Come on then, tell me a great thing that the House of Lords has achieved in the last five years. Well, I think what it does well is it escapes some of the party political stuff and it scrutinizes things more carefully. So during my whole time in the House of Commons, and I remember being attacked by Chris Bryant about this. He said to me, you know, I can't believe the Honourable member is defending the House of Lords on the grounds that it's got more geopolitical expertise than the honourable member has geopolitical expertise.

46:58Rory Stewart:The quality of debate about geopolitics and strategy in the Commons was so much worse. Yeah, I'd agree it's better in the Lords. I'd agree with that. The Lords, if you want to talk about war, defence, Iran, you want to be reading the speeches because it's got ambassadors and generals and spy chiefs and security chiefs and professors. But that's what it should focus on not a bunch of politicians well so what is it supposed to do it's supposed to be scrutiny yeah long-term thinking consequences deliberation and and and i guess our compromise is the government if it really wants to do something can force stuff through and if it doesn't want to get behind it well it doesn't want to get behind it i mean why is starmer not getting behind this if he wants to get behind it he can get it through the lords no listen he could and and i'm hoping yeah that actually as i think this will once this thing finally dies, I think there will be a reaction against it.

47:48And I think whether the government picks it up, the government can do things. I mean, this sort of constitutional niceties can go back. This thing still can be revived, but it won't be revived anytime soon. So I agree with you, I think the government could get behind it. Or might I suggest, Rory, that this is a classic example of where when you've had the Commons vote for it, you then say, let's have a People's Assembly, a Citizens' Assembly on this. Citizens' Assembly. This is the sort of thing it should be used for.

48:16Rory Stewart:Citizens Assembly. I love it. If you're looking. Citizens Assembly is the third chamber. I'm with you. Rory. But institutional redesign. I mean, I'm with you. Well, I was thinking more of a second chamber before it used to go to the House of Lords. But let me tell you this. If you're saying it should be there for sort of long-term thinking and strategic and all this. Moral hazard, technical scrutiny. If you're asking me to put together the John Paul George Ringo of forward thinking on strategy, I'm not picking Mark Harper, Teresa Coffey, Sheila Lawler of one of those ghastly Tufton Street think tanks, or, dare I say, Claire Fox.

48:51Rory Stewart:Very good. So I am furious about this damn thing. Look, I'm not defending the Hustle's current thing. I think the bit of it that I like basically are the crossbenches. But do you still agree? Would you still vote against it if this went back to the Commons and you were still an MP? or do you not think that actually the measures that have been put into it as it went through all its stages actually have strengthened it substantially because I do I think that the you're absolutely right it's strengthened it substantially it seems to be now better than Netherlands, Belgium, Canada where there seems to be a rapid extension I think the last stats I saw in one of those countries is almost 1 in 20 deaths has now assisted dying in one of those countries so I believe this might have been more like an Oregon model they're trying to contain it more The numbers who went to Switzerland last year have gone up.

49:38I think we've ended up in a terrible place because it's a ridiculous institution. Yeah.

49:43Rory Stewart:Well, I think it's one of these horrible things where there will be definitely cases of people in really, really miserable situations. and I've always been supportive, I think, and this is probably where people like me get in trouble, of doctors, in effect, helping people to die when things have got too bad. I mean, I think doctors were always expected, weren't they, decades ago to put a bit of extra morphine and et cetera. So I think the idea that you let people go when they're on their last legs and you don't make them go through unnecessary agony makes sense to me um i think creating a whole legal framework where and this is where i slightly agree with diane abbott poorer more vulnerable people now i'm sure the people who did this bill will explain why it won't affect them but um i i still can't bear the idea that someone might say i don't want to be a burden and you know maybe i so that's right right there we are just on this um subject by the way um tessa jowell much loved much lamented her daughter jess has written a really fabulous book about tessa and about their relationship jess was her family was starting as tessa was dying so it's all that sort of sense of of life and uh and love and what have you but i just sort of had i just texted jess and said what would your mum be voting on this assisted dying bill?

51:22I assumed it would be in favour, but I just wanted to chat with Jess. So Jess is actually going to do an interview with our newsletter, talking about these themes,

51:32Rory Stewart:big themes of loss and love and life and death. Let me just finish my final pretentious comment, which is that one of the things that's connecting these themes is the question of how do governments deal with complicated issues? And you were talking about how everything seems to be in an incredible hurry in Iran. and lack of thought. And how do you design institutions that get the balance right? How do you make sure you get the proper amount of scrutiny, but you don't end up in what the populists sometimes complain about with reason, which is too much process, too much filibustering, too much people getting in the way of making decisions and getting things done.

52:07Rory Stewart:And I think it doesn't matter whether we're talking about Iran or whether we're talking about a sister dying, or whether we go on to talk about international aid or immigration in Australia, we're really struggling to develop political systems which get the right balance between getting on with stuff and having proper care, thoughtful process, and accepting that the whole point about our democracies is we disagree. And we need to create structures which hold this very weird thing in play, which is that you and I can disagree about a lot of stuff. And the whole point about our democracy is institutions where we accept that sometimes I lose, sometimes you lose, and we move on but you know then you have something like trump who literally believes that it should all be done by him signing his signature and that road lies some of the mess that we're that we're in now and by the way i know he's slightly living in my head but his reaction to robert moore's death long-term public servant who yes he and he he did the report on russian influence on trump in his first election campaign and he died and trump's reaction was i'm glad he's dead i mean that is There are some people who I've crossed swords with in the past who, when they die, I won't say anything.

53:23Yeah, but you don't say good. But I'm not going to say, I'm really glad they're dead. I think that reveals a really horrible human being.

53:32Rory Stewart:And then when Scott Besson was asked about this in the interview you were quoting, he refused, I think, three times to say that Trump was wrong to celebrate the death of Robert Mueller. Republican politicians condemned it. And just go back to Charlie Kirk's death, when if you didn't say this guy's a hero, then we're talking about throwing you in jail. I mean, this is one sick, fucked up country, I'm afraid. Right, question time, Sue, tomorrow. In question time tomorrow, we're going to return to some of the biggest issues of our age. So we're going to look at this whole question about how you get defence and international development balanced, in particular what's happening in the UK where we have cut international development to the bone.

54:13Rory Stewart:we're going to talk about the extraordinary victory of your friend and a man who's becoming one of my great heroes peter malinorskas premier of south australia who's just won an extraordinary election but which has also revealed that australian politics sadly beginning to look a bit more like british politics with the right splitting between a far right and a less successful right and we're also going to be talking about uh possibly rejoining the european union king Charles' footpath and we've got some lighter and rather fun curveball questions to come. See you then. See you then.

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