570. Why Trump Acts Like a Russian Asset and Miliband’s West Bank Sanctions

21:59Rory Stewart:It's not just that we've sort of ignored people. It's that there's so much to be hopeful about there, so much energy, so many of the solutions come from that. I mean, what I felt is that things that seemed impossible to fix in Westminster when you turned up in Cumbria, actually people had ideas because they really knew their neighborhood, their street, what the problems were and what the solutions were and were prepared to get involved in solutions. So actually, it's a lot of things. It could be, I totally agree with Andy Byrne and partly about changing the structure of our politics, getting power down locally because local people know more, can do more than distant people.

22:33Rory Stewart:But it's also taking ideas from the ground, fixing things from the ground will sort of fix our politics. But one of the problems I've had with this book is how do you get people excited? Because the conversation in politics is still so Westminster related. If I say to people, actually, the answer to a lot of Britain's problems is places like Cumbria, look closely at this particular constituency, these issues, everyone's like, oh, well, that sounds a bit boring. But actually, it's the freshest, most exciting thing. And it's what we feel in our own neighbourhoods. The thing that actually makes us positive about our lives are what we see around us, not what we see in Prime Minister's Questions.

23:10This week's newsletter, Extract from Middleland by Rory Stewart.

23:14Rory Stewart:And there will be a special chance to win a signed copy too. So to read that and enter the draw, go to therestlesspolitics.com forward slash newsletter. A couple of prizes, you'll get a free signed book and you'll also get slightly more bizarrely a new sculpture that I've made if anyone wants to own a Rory Stewart made work of art and if you'd like to come to a live show to hear more about this I will be on at the Dominion Theatre this Sunday with Lewis Goodall discussing the themes of the book and you can buy tickets with fane.co.uk. Let's take a break and then when we come back as I say we'll talk a little bit about the West Bank settlements we're going to talk about John Healy's first outing big speech as Chancellor and also what the questioner calls our friend Alexander Vucic and what's happening following the death of Mladic and a very interesting Putin Medvedev style move by Mr.

24:04Vucic.

24:10Rory Stewart:Welcome back to the Restless Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair Campbell. So Alistair, first pretty challenging question from Michelle for you. does Ed Miliband's speech and actions on Israeli settlements compared to John Healy's first statement as chancellor suggest that actually Burnham made the wrong choice and Ed Miliband would have been a better chancellor of the exchequer? Ah, a live debate, a live debate at the time. Well, tell us firstly about the John Healy speech. Well, I didn't see it all. I saw bits on the news. I haven't read it. And as you know, I like to read speeches before I pass judgment.

24:45But sometimes you don't have time. But I did think there was a bit of a problem that the main news that I picked out of it appeared to be John Healy refuses to rule out tax rises in budget. Right.

25:00Rory Stewart:And so just to land that, I mean, it's obvious to you and it'll be obvious to all professional politicians listening, but that is exactly what you don't want to achieve as your press release, right? I mean, that is central. No positive story coming out of the chancellor. All there is is the potential attack line on labor, which is they're going to raise taxes. Yeah. So you had, and like I say, I haven't read it, but what that says to me is, Do you remember I always used to say, I don't know why Keir Starmer does that thing of making a speech and then taking questions? I'm imagining, I'm guessing that came out of questions after the speech.

25:35Otherwise, he wouldn't be refusing to rule out. Well, otherwise, you're not going to say, yeah, exactly. I refuse to rule out. Exactly. You're not going to put in a speech, you know, and I hereby today refuse to rule out.

25:44Rory Stewart:So that means none of the speech made it into the headlines. It would be the failure to answer a question that made the headlines. Yeah, I think, look, what I think he did was to set out how difficult things are, which Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer did a lot. set out some of the positive agenda that Andy Byrne has been putting forward, particularly about devolution and some of the stuff we've talked about. But it said to me, and then on the tube in this morning, I was looking over somebody's shoulder as they were reading John Crace and the Guardian. The headline was something like boring, insubstantial something.

26:16It was very, very, very, very hostile.

26:17Rory Stewart:This is really sad because I'm afraid one of the fatal problems from the beginning of the start of the government was Rachel Reeves basically giving those sort of speeches. Speeches which were, we've inherited a grim situation, we don't really have much answer on what we're going to do, and I'm not really communicating. And I was hoping Healey would be a different sort of figure. Now, people like me who are more center-right thought he was quite a reassuring figure because we thought he was a safe pair of hands, he wasn't to bankrupt the country, he wasn't going to do anything too reckless. But I would also hope that he will begin, as he keeps going, to get a bit of liveliness and fun and humor.

27:01Rory Stewart:He can take some risk. I mean, he's quite a veteran. He's not like Rachel Rees, he's a relatively young politician. He's somebody who presumably could afford to enjoy himself a bit. Well, I think the most important thing is to have arguments that people want to debate and discuss and talk about and get moved by and so one thing i thought was very interesting at our live show is how much enthusiasm there seemed to be from you know there were a lot of young people there but it was a fairly middle-aged to older audience but actually seemed to be completely up for the idea that they've got to look at the triple lock as a way of addressing intergenerational equality and also raising some money and i know we're in london and london's very kind of anti-brexit but that's another one where i just think we need to hear more than just the sort of mood music we've been having so far.

27:43Rory Stewart:And sorry, the really disappointing thing is that it signals that there is basically no new radical economic policy or vision. So he could have said, and I think you and I would have supported this, we're getting rid of the triple lock. That would have been an unbelievably exciting moment. And this is the moment to do it. It's the moment where Burnham's riding highest in the polls. This is the honeymoon period. This is where you take the risk. So get rid of the triple lock, announce that you're going to radically simplify the taxation system. Who knows? Combine national insurance with income tax.

28:16Rory Stewart:Announce that because of the defense problems, you're going to raise income tax and you're going to have a broader tax base, more Scandinavian tax base instead of tinkering around at the edges. This is the moment and he's missed it. Does that mean it's never going to happen? No, because what the Treasury will be saying to him and always do say, chances, don't put stuff out before the budget. But I think those days have gone. I think you need a big framing argument ahead of the budget. And the, so listen, I am going to go back today and read the whole thing because I may, you know, it may be that we're being unfair doing what I don't like to do, which is just sort of absorbing the negative headlines.

28:52But I was hoping for something that, you know, I actually penciled in the diary, he's making his first big speech on the Monday, you know, query, do we talk about it in the main episode?

29:01Rory Stewart:Well, here's another question for you. I mean, I know you like to go for a bit of a walk on Hampstead Heath with your friend Keir Starmer, right? Is he not in an absolute boiling rage? Because John Healy, who was his defense secretary, was the nail in Keir Starmer's coffin. He resigned from Starmer's cabinet because Starmer refused to commit to spend 3 % of GDP. And John Healy said that meant that defense wasn't safe in his hands. Absolutely. Healy then becomes Charles Dick's checker and announces he's not going to commit to 3 % GDP. Well, he hasn't quite announced it, but the mood music is in the move.

29:33If you were Keir Starmer, how would you be feeling? I'd be very pissed off about that. I think Keir Starmer, I'm not saying I've been for a walk with him, Rory. I'm not saying I've been anywhere near Amsterdam. But you're not saying you haven't spoken to him either? No, I'm not saying I haven't spoken to him. I mean, you know, keep in touch with all people across the government and across all the politics, as you know. But I would imagine he is, I think actually when he was stepping down.

29:57Rory Stewart:Alistair refuses to rule out having spoken to Keir Starmer. No, you don't rule out having spoken to you. You refuse to confirm or deny. Very good, very good. But what I think he would be thinking, because I think when he stood down or announced he was stepping down, to be fair to him, and actually there was quite a lot of to be fair to him in that audience. We asked them whether they're broadly sympathetic to Keir Star and what he'd done as leader of the Labour Party. But I think he said he was going to do it with good grace and without bitterness and anger. And he did that. Although, just quickly on this, I also think this...

30:30Rory Stewart:I was going to do a but, but carry on. Stepping down is a bit weird. I mean, without over-praising Theresa May or indeed Rishi Sunak, everybody said when Rishi Sunak lost the election that he was going to go off to California, put his kids in, become a tech entrepreneur, live the life for the super-rich. And he has remained in Richmond as a Member of Parliament, remained on the back benches, continues to attend Parliament. So if Rishi Sunak can do it and Theresa May can do it, why is Keir Starmer not doing that? I think a little bit different when you are stepping down as prime minister. I think if Rishi, so Rishi lost the election.

31:06Well, Theresa May, she stepped down. She did. She did. She did. No, I think these are massive. I think they really, really, really, there's a big, big personal decision to make that, isn't it? Do you want to just hang around knowing that the only interest is going to be in you as a political figure is how you're then seen in relation to your predecessor?

31:24Rory Stewart:I think Theresa May and Rishi's, you know, kind of a bit well. I think they've both done it well. But look, back to one of my constant bugbears, I do think politicians on the left get treated and judged differently. So I sort of understand it. But I think the last time I did see him, he said, you know, he genuinely seemed to think that it was a good thing that Andy Burnham was having such a good honeymoon. Does Labour need a by-election? Is that the ideal thing, if you're a Labour strategist, for him to trigger a by-election? No, no. Right now, I don't think by-elections are any good for anybody.

31:51But I think Labour will win it. Obviously, I don't think Polanski is going to win this by-election. and interestingly he's being he's being challenged for the nomination by one of the green councillors who says he's got six of their 10 camden councillors backing him so that suggests polanski's maybe in the wrong part of town for this but i think that he but kia will be if there's one thing that i think will be making him utterly enraged is this thing about defense he knows that that was i mean we said on the podcast at the time this was like a death blow you know we did i think we did an emergency podcast didn't we said that you know this could be the end for kia starmer and it turned that it was the end of Keir Starmer.

32:25So then to see John Healy sort of essentially, and Andy Burnham said, look, I made him defence chancellor because I know about his commitment to defence. Well, that has to mean what he said he was going to do when he was defence secretary. So that's going to be very, very tricky. So you, I get from the way that you read out Michelle's question, I get the sense that you are probably more content with Ed Miliband.

32:47Rory Stewart:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, you know, I owe an apology to Ed Miliband, which is that I've consistently underestimated him. I sound like your friend, the biographer of Keir Starmer. Tom Baldwin is his name. He has a name. I think I've been consistently unfair to him. I love the way you're so dismissive of my friends. Your friend, Emmanuel Macron. You did it with a saying, your friend, Emmanuel Macron. I do that, don't I? Your friend, the king. Your friend, the king, exactly. So, Edmund Urban, I think, has been really genuinely surprising. That was a big deal. Now, it's consistent. Just to explain what he's done.

33:26Rory Stewart:What he's announced is that there will be sanctions on goods produced in Israeli settlements, particularly agricultural goods, if they are grown in what Britain considers to be occupied Palestinian territory, illegal Israeli settlements. We will not be purchasing goods from those places. And it was very interesting talking to Maoz about this. Maoz is obviously an Israeli, and he's been doing a lot in London, talking in JW3, talking to the Board of Deputies. And he was saying, it's very striking that when he talks to Jewish friends in London, they're very much in favor of sanctions because they understand that being Jewish and being a supporter of Israel does not mean that you support illegal settlements.

34:12Rory Stewart:But when the British government does it, they're much more thrown off balance and worried. And I think a lot of the British Jewish community are very, very troubled by the idea that Ed Maliband could do it. So even if they privately feel that they don't support the settlements, when the British government makes a policy, and of course, what we've learned with the recognition of Palestine is that it can quite quickly embrace quite a lot of the rest of the world. Remember the Canadians recognized Palestinian state, French recognized Palestinian state. I'm also a little bit cross, as I was with that recognition, they haven't coordinated more.

34:44Rory Stewart:This goes back to our middle power discussion before the break. It would have been more powerful if a range of countries had done this together. Yeah. I mean, look, Ed's going to get a lot of blowback on this from all sorts of people. Mick Huckabee, the US ambassador in Israel, even before this had been announced - He said this was Jew hatred. He said this is Jew hatred. Well, I'll just point out to him that Ed Miliband is Jewish. And indeed, I noticed that there were Palestinian critics who said, you can't have a foreign secretary who's Jewish because they were assuming he was going to be too pro-Israeli.

35:12And also, there is then also the argument about - Oh, and Tom Tugendhat's now been attacking him, saying, we can't afford to imperil our

35:19Rory Stewart:relationships with this important ally. So it's really interesting the way that the Conservative Party is reframing itself against the more liberal values-based international order that Miliband is still championing. In fact, actually what Tugendhat says is that Miliband is behaving like his brother, your friend David. Look, I think broadly this will be approved of by the British public. It will certainly be approved of by most people in the Labour Party who think that we've been too soft. But there is always a risk in this. I mean, don't forget the Labour Party is still pained by the Corbyn leadership and the issue of anti-Semitism and the damage that did.

35:58So there is a balance to be struck here. And it was interesting to watch. I don't think, I mean, it would be very difficult to accuse Evan Lovano being anti-Semitic. I mean, his parents are literally Jewish refugees from Europe. I mean, it's not. Exactly. But it doesn't mean that they won't. It doesn't mean that the Americans, there might be a price to pay with them. And I mean, did you not think it was extraordinary? Because when we had this whole Rest is Fest where Gary Lineker was there and the rest is money and the rest is history. All the rest is podcasts at the South Bank. But the guy who was in charge of the whole thing told me that the loudest applause across the whole weekend was when we announced Maoz and Aziz coming on stage as surprise guests.

36:42And they were just, I mean, they were brilliant.

36:44Rory Stewart:And anyone who hasn't listened to our leading interview, please do. It doesn't matter what side you are in this debate. What they do, which is so radical, is they say you just start from peace. You don't start from the technicalities of a deal. You start from, do you or do you not want the killing to stop? Yeah. The truth is that the Israeli government, particularly that tale of Ben-Gavir Smotrich, they don't want to stop because they basically think that the Palestinian territories are theirs and they're going to take them. I support what Ed Miliband has done on this, but I'm simply saying there's always a balance.

37:17It's a difficult balance because there's so many competing arguments around this. Okay. Now, here is a question which really hits us hard.

37:24Rory Stewart:This is from Marko. Marko. Your friend Vucic is calling an election two years early. Is it a sign of confidence or proof of the protests since the canopy collapse rattled him? And Jared, what does Mladic's funeral reveal about the political identity of modern Serbia? Well, when it says your friend, was that directed at both of us because we went to Belgrade? I'll take that as well. Okay. So we went to Belgrade. And if you remember, But during the interview, I asked him whether he might do a Putin Medvedev. He's working his way through his second term as president. He can't do a third. And if you remember, he was basically saying, well, there'll be discussions in the party and we'll see.

38:07And it depends on the sort of pressure that might come on me, et cetera, et cetera. You and I both said afterwards, look, he's definitely going to run for prime minister. So his party is now, surprise, surprise, he's going to run as prime minister. There's going to be an early election. Meanwhile, I don't know whether the time is related to it or not, but the outpouring of nationalism on the back of this convicted war criminal who died in The Hague.

38:34Rory Stewart:Yeah, well, let's just remind you about this because this is very much our world and we both worked on Bosnia and Kosovo. Rako Mladic was convicted at The Hague of mass displacement, genocide killing. This is the general who oversaw the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and more than anything else, went into the so-called UN safe area of Srebrenica, where there were 8 ,000 Bosnian Muslims, was filmed there with civilians who then proceeded to be murdered. Filmed, telling them that they were safe and patting the children on the head. 8 ,000 of them killed. It's very, very difficult to think of somebody who is more clearly associated with the horrors of that war.

39:20Rory Stewart:So this guy is flown back. He comes off the plane with essentially everything that feels like a state welcome. He's taken into the main cathedral that we saw. Vucic's son is there. The head of the Orthodox Church is basically praising him as a martyr. And I sent you yesterday what's happening in the football stadiums, which is Serbian crowds basically - This is Red Star Belgrade with the huge Tifo of Maladic. So those things take organization. And essentially threatening a second genocide against their opponents. This is well beyond normal nationalism. And the fact that Vucic has refused to condemn this or distance himself properly from this thing, he didn't attend the actual funeral.

40:09Rory Stewart:But basically, yeah, a convicted genocidal war criminal has returned to a hero's funeral in Serbia. And Vucic, who tried to pose on the interview with us as a sort of intelligent chess playing moderate, it. Basically, the mask is off. The guy is a fascist. Wow. Okay. So there was me thinking, I'll give Vucic a call and see if we can get another interview with him now. Do you think I've helped with that? I think you probably ended it slightly. But what is absolutely clear is that the scale of the Serb nationalism that was represented, and not just the tolerance of a convicted war criminal. But the celebration, because that funeral was massive and it was a celebration.

41:00If you're celebrating somebody's life, above all, you're celebrating their values, their character, and the things for which they're most remembered. He is most remembered for the events that you've talked about.

41:11Rory Stewart:That banner runs Direkcion Potokari, and Potokari is the Serbian word for Srebrenica. It is basically like holding up a pitcher of Heinrich Himmler with the sign Direction Auschwitz in a football stadium. Yeah. And Vucic doesn't condemn it. Yeah. I'm wondering whether his calculation politically, because the timing is interesting, they've done this now around this. With his Minister of Justice meeting the casket at the airport. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting. When I was at my football match in Croatia, one of the players was Nemanja Vidic who used to play for Manchester United Serb very very very good guy and a very intelligent guy who's got a really good political mind I'd love it if he went into politics one day I think he'd be great and he felt as a lot of people felt that we were way too soft on Vidic we were I think yeah and we probably were and we probably were and that was because our general approach was let the guy speak don't just get down and dirty about you were this in Kosovo and even when he said I was unprincipled and all that, I didn't even respond.

42:20If I go back to the time when we were virtually opposite numbers, he was Milozovic's right-hand man, I was Tony Blair's right-hand man, and I was working at NATO during the Kosovo War, would I have thought that somebody who was so close to Milozovic had the capacity to be as nationalist and aggressive and, your word, fascist as now can be seen. Probably. Yeah, probably. Did I think that because of his political skill, he had navigated a very, very different approach to this that maybe made me think he'd become a bit different? Yeah, probably. Would somebody like Nemanja Vidic and others say to me, maybe you're being a bit naive?

43:02Yeah, maybe.

43:02Rory Stewart:It's a big problem though, isn't it, for the things that we all believe in, which is the Western Balkans coming into the European Union, Turkey coming to the European Union. When you see people like Vladivosti, and actually some of the ways that Erdogan behaves. You can see why people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we're really up for Iceland coming in, happy with Norway. But this is pretty tough stuff, which is why I'm increasingly in favor of a single market for freedoms option rather than bringing them into the EU. I was talking to a European commissioner over the weekend, not Marta Kos, who's in charge of enlargement, but somebody else who's more on the economic side.

43:38And we were talking about enlargement in general context. And we're going through the list of all the things, you know, Canada, we'd love it. Norway, we'd love it. UK, it's got to happen. Serbia was a very big no-no, and this has not helped.

43:51Rory Stewart:To finish, Jenny really loved the two live shows. What did you make of the live shows? And what's the difference between doing a live show and doing a pre-recorded podcast? It's interesting, isn't it? They are different. They're very different. They're very different. I think with both, it's kind of how do you stay uplifted and how do you stay positive? We talk about all this grimness. You're also quite, I think you're quite a thespian. The more I see you on a stage, the more I'm sort of won over by the idea that actually you're quite a performer. Like what? Well, you've got - I play the bagpipes.

44:19Rory Stewart:No, no, no, not just the bagpipes. Although it is true that you let me dance, which was cool. You danced twice. You danced with the mooch and you danced with my eyes. Did you like the tune that I wrote for my eyes and eyes ease? Lovely. I thought it was really beautiful. Lovely. And I - Pissed off. I've not seen, nobody filmed the whole damn thing. No, really? Nobody has sent me a complete film of me playing that tune, which I wanted to send to my friend Finley. I thought Maors danced much better than the Mooch. He actually set properly. The Mooch just spun around in a circle. I was also a little worried because with the Mooch, of course, he looks so young, thanks to the amazing plastic surgery in her hair, but I wasn't quite sure how long I could spin him for without the ticker going on.

44:55Yeah, or without him falling off the stage. I was a bit worried, but that's why I only played one part of one tune.

44:59Rory Stewart:But those who'd like to get more of the unique personality and charm of the Mooch, not just dancing live, can hear him on Leading, where we are interviewing him about Trump, himself, America, and much more. But I'll tell you the thing that really uplifted me. Obviously, Myers and Aziz were just amazingly uplifting. And Fiona said afterwards, that was just like, you could have literally, they were hanging on every word and it was so moving and positive and etc. I also like the fact that when I asked people, because we had been so grim, hands up who's feeling optimistic about their own life, virtually everybody put their hands up.

45:34Rory Stewart:Well, this is my sort of crief story. This is your middle land. This is my middle land story. Yeah, yeah. Basically, so many parts of Britain I go to, people are creating really worthwhile, valuable, interesting lives. They're not easy lives, but there's so much to be positive about. It's a bit weird that the narrative is that Britain's broken because of course, there are bits of Britain are broken, but so many bits of it seem so much better than they were 20, 30 years ago. We also had a, we did our live polling thing. So, and I'm guessing, you know, I'm there, pretty identified as Labour, you're there as sort of, you know, not very fond of your old party.

46:12But we had, so probably a sort of centre-left audience, but we did ask them, and this was very different to how it was a year ago, who do you think will be Prime Minister after the next election? If you remember when we did that last year, we did it several times, and Keir was struggling. Yeah, Keir, nobody thought he'd be the Prime Minister after the next election. And this time, more than 80%, is that right? 83 % Burnham, 7 % Badenock, 1.5 % Davy, 8 % Farage, 0.5 % Polanski.

46:40Rory Stewart:It shows you why changing a leader can make an enormous difference. You go from a narrative of an almost inevitable Labour won't win to now people feeling it's almost inevitable that Burnham will be prime minister for the next eight years. It's actually the same thing, God forbid this happens to Burnham. But of course, the same thing did actually happen with Boris Johnson. You remember in 2019, people thought, oh, for goodness sake, the Tories have been in for nine years, there's no way they can win a majority. They bring in a new leader and they get a stonking majority. And if the guy hadn't been such a dishonest, incompetent wretch, he was actually in quite a strong position.

47:13Rory Stewart:Yeah. So that was interesting. No, I really enjoyed it. I thought the... And I think it's great that people just want to sit down and talk about this stuff. I also loved bringing on Miles and Aziz, and actually Cassie and Anthony. I think it takes some of the pressure off us. I find when it's just the two of us. Do you find that hard? I find it's quite pretty. Is that why you've gone off with Lewis Goodall instead of me? Is that what you find? Yeah, yeah, that's good. Too pressured, yeah. And more people on stage four is good, because then we can do a bit of interviewing with Rebecca. Well, when I do, I've just been going through my schedule for this trip I'm doing to Australia in November.

47:44I mean, bloody hell, I don't.

47:46Rory Stewart:You're attempting to kill yourself, aren't you? I had a long conversation with your mentor, Neil Kinnock. Oh, yeah. who's an absolutely lovely man. Total ledge. Total ledge. But he was saying that he was a bit worried about how much you were working. When did Neil develop this Scottish accent? I don't know, that's true. That's because of preparation, we're going around tomorrow. But anyway, he's worried along with me. And Fiona, yeah. The possibility that you're working too hard. I'll be fine, I'll be fine, I'll be fine. But I think most of the events I'm doing there are going to be kind of just me rocking up and wandering around the stage.

48:16Neil gave me and Fiona a lift home after the event because he was at the thing he said. And he's got a very interesting nickname for the new leader of the Conservative Party. What does he call her? He calls her Bad Enoch.

48:29Rory Stewart:Oh, Bad Enoch. Interesting. I think we're going to go with bad enough. Bad Enoch. What do you think of that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I get it. You know, that's what you want. Don't you tell me this? One of my great moments in my life. So as a young man, age sort of 16. 16? 16. 16. Yeah.

48:49Rory Stewart:I'd overslept at my boarding school at Eton. And I went into the headmaster's study before lunch, where we were meeting people. And there was this old dude standing in the corner. And I went over to him and nobody was talking to him. And I felt sorry for him, my old grandpa. And I said, what do you do? And he said, in my declining years, I translate the Greek New Testament. And I said, oh, well, what do you do before your declining years? And he said, I was a politician. My first name's Enoch. And he stormed off. And it had turned out that I'd missed his sermon where he had apparently said, everybody has forgotten me except for you, the younger generation.

49:25And you've forgotten him. And it was Enoch.

49:28Rory Stewart:Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's interesting how actually sort of public figures are surprisingly vain and sensitive if you don't recognize them. They get quite chippy and offended quite easily. Yeah. Although some people love it. Some people love going from being very, very well-known and not being talked about. Most, I agree, are in the opposite direction. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We've done a lot of plugging as usual, Rory, you with your pedulterous relationship with Lewis Goodall. Final plug, we've done this really good interview for members that was part of the Gen Z series, which went down so well with our listeners and viewers of all ages, where with Rosie Whiting and Keir Mather, who are two very young Labour MPs, both still in their 20s.

50:13Gen Z. And we think that their voice needs to be heard more than it maybe is. So that episode is going out this Friday. Brilliant. Looking forward to it very much. To get that, you've got to be a member. Sign up for therestofspolitics.com. And see you all next week.