571. Rory and Alastair Challenge Ed Miliband on Israel-Palestine

24:51I confidence it was Russian. Holding the Russians accountable is World War III. They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people. Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. You've got to ask yourself, do you want to play or not? You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing!

25:12We would need to understand the policy context. All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today. Disseminated into an operation order. Or Frago? Or Frago that says to kill the president of Russia? Yes. New from Goalhanger. Who is going to be able to pull this off? You're my soldier, are you? Sergeant Tom McDuff. Duffy! An audio drama journey like no other. Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons. Devised as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller. We have two times friendly key. Where Britain plays its strongest hand against its strongest foe. Don't do it, David!

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26:15Rory Stewart:Welcome back to the Rethys Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart. And me, Ernest Campbell. So let's now look at your bigger role. You've just become foreign secretary. You've been in for how long now? Seven, eight weeks. Seven, eight weeks. And it's amazing. You're leader of the Labour Party, almost prime stare. You've been the energy secretary. You've been connected to politics for a very long time, but you've never been a foreign secretary. And you're taking over a time when Britain is much, much weaker in the world. I mean, one of the things, if I was being cheeky, I would say, if I was being critical of this debate, we're still talking as though the exact question of what you say about these things is going to make much difference to what happens on the ground.

26:55Rory Stewart:The real challenge that you face is how does Britain with its limited power create alliances and actually reshape the world around it? So why yet again did the British government not make the announcement at exactly the same time in a unified statement with France and Canada. That was true about the recognition. Okay, thank you. I apologize. That is not how it's been reported in the British press. I think it was. Well, okay, let me lead you into this then. Why is it not being seen as the beginning of development of a completely different way of thinking about the world, moving beyond a US and China centered world towards thinking about how middle powers define values, define ambitions so that we can really see over hopefully the next three years of your tenure, the beginnings of reconstructing a new architecture rather than Britain flying its own flag.

27:48Rory Stewart:You're hired. Tell us about the object. Look, I agree with lots of what you said. So let me deal with this with the seriousness it deserves. I come to this very much with my family background, prominent in my mind. My parents came to this country as Jewish refugees, they saw a country that wasn't just a sanctuary for them, but stood up for a set of values, the rule of law, fight against fascism, and so on. And those values are more threatened under question than they've been, I think, any time since in the last eight decades. And that's very much the context in which I think about this job. I don't agree with you, actually, about Britain and its ability to make a difference in the world.

28:40I think we underestimate our ability to make a difference, actually. The thing that struck me a lot in this job, in the couple of months I've been doing this job, is people want Britain to be present. Not on its own, but working with others. People think Britain has a lot to contribute. And so I think providing one doesn't sort of approach it arrogantly, I'm here to make a difference. Ed Llewellyn, who is the political director in the Foreign Office, former chief of staff to David Cameron, who I think is absolutely brilliant. I probably shouldn't be saying that, but he's really very wise. He said to me on the first day in office that Lord Carrington used to say, one of my predecessors, Lord Carrington used to say at the end of meetings in the Foreign Office, and so, in other words, and so what are we going to do?

29:28And I think we can make a difference. I think you are absolutely right, Rory, that working with others, and one of the things we thought about a lot over the summer in August, as we were thinking about our own action and knew we were going to act, is let's assemble a coalition. It will be much more meaningful if it's France and Canada and others coming along. I went to the Gimnic, the EU foreign ministers meeting at the beginning of September, talked to other colleagues about what we were going to do. This was our plan. Others had already moved, actually, to be fair. Ireland had already moved.

30:00The Netherlands had already moved, Spain, so on, Belgium. So, mobilizing that coalition, 100%. And I think that is what we can do. One other thing just I'd say is sometimes people pose standing up for our values against standing up for our interests. And I think that is wrong. I think by standing up for our values, we're not only doing the right thing, but it is pursuing our interests in a stable world. And a stable world is a world based on the rule of law. That is the only basis for peace and prosperity.

30:34Rory Stewart:Okay. I think I maybe wasted time getting into this question of how important Britain is. And of course, as a foreign section and politician, you're going to tell us that Britain matters a lot in the world. Fine. The more interesting question is what is the formal architecture that we're going to create? Right? We've got, and of course, you're going to say we're going to stick up for values, we're going to work with other people. But Mark Carney has done something very unusual, which is to say there is a possibility for an alliance of middle powers. And it really matters. We desperately need strategic autonomy.

31:00Rory Stewart:We've got AI taking off, we're reliant on China and the US in terrifying ways. So here is an opportunity to say, let's create a formal structure around Europe where the UK, Norway, Switzerland, who knows, Turkey, the Western Balkans, Ukraine, Canada could actually create an institution that could steer the world through a time rather than ad hoc pick and mix, Woolworths will do something with them today, will do something tomorrow. But we really recognize that we're getting into a world in which we need three legs to a tripod rather than just the US and China. So let me come to the sort of, I think, the kind of principle question and then the architecture question.

31:43On the principled question, this is an ugly phrase, but plurilateral alliances, really, really important. I'm going to be convening ministers to UNGA, not just alongside Jordan on Gaza, but also on climate, climate security. One of the biggest national security threats that we face alongside AI. And those coalitions, building those coalitions, incredibly important. On your specific point about Europe, it's really interesting that you say this. I wasn't really struck at the Gimnick, which is this EU informal foreign ministers meeting, because you had Canada there, you had Iceland there, who just said no to accession talks.

32:29You had Norway there, you had the UK there, you had Ukraine there. I'm very open to the kind of thing you're talking about. And how formal it is, I don't know. But, you know, countries working together on these issues, on a whole range of issues, alongside us having a stronger and deeper relationship with the European Union, I think is really profound and important. But isn't what the post-war settlement showed is that you do need international institutions. And essentially, we got a lot of questions about Mark Carney's speech. It was a very important speech. back in Davos. Speeches matter, as you and I both believe.

33:07We both believe that. We always have done. But Mark Carney's speech was interesting because he was really the first to say, this is a rupture, not a transition. Now, we can have a debate about that. But he actually, I think, is leaning into a post-US hegemonic world. He is saying that to leave the world in the state that it is with only the US and China as the driving powers. And as you say, if Britain does have a role in this, is shouldn't we be leaning into that more, actually trying to think through new structures to meet some of these challenges we're talking about? Yeah, and I'm open to that.

33:43Leaning into our relationship with the European Union, in my first week, I was in Manila at the ASEAN forum. But the second week, I deliberately went to Paris, went to Madrid. I think forming a deeper, closer relationship with the EU, whether it's on defense or security or trade or all of climate, all of those issues is crucial. I just want to say about the US though, you know, maybe foreign sectors tend to say this, but I do believe it. The enduring alliance with the US also matters to us. Matters for NATO, matters for trade, matters for defense, matters for intelligence, all of those things.

34:21And so, you know, I think you can do both of those things. You don't think we need a complete new international architecture. The post-war settlement is frankly breaking down. And while we pretend that we can get it back, we actually might be doing it. What does that mean, though? Sorry to ask this question, but what does it mean for a whole new international architecture? You actually get together and say that this settlement is broken down. We have to work with our allies. A little bit by the BRICS are doing an equivalent. They're doing an equivalent of this.

34:55Rory Stewart:Or maybe to comment behind Alistair, If we were, and we've interviewed Mark Carney twice, and I think without putting words in his mouth, he would say Britain still hasn't woken up to how much the world has changed and the US has changed. One of the things that frustrates him is that Britain continues to have its cake and eat it and pretend that it's going to be able to have a confident 5, 10 year future where it's going to be incredibly dependent still on the US over the next 10, 20 years for its patriot missile defense, its AI, its cloud computing, its everything. And it doesn't need to worry about that because US will always be a reliable partner and there's no vulnerability there.

35:31Well, I wouldn't. I don't think I would characterize my position that way. I mean, look, for example, I think, you know, becoming the foreign secretary makes you more of an advocate for defense spending and Europe being able to do its defense properly. And, you know, when you look at what's happening in Ukraine and the importance of that fight for us against Russian aggression, not just as a matter of principle, but as a matter of our future security. Yes, you know, European security, really, really important. But then at the same time, I would also say, and I think Mark would sort of agree with this, is that if you think about, well, how are we going to really get on track for a two-state solution or Israel-Palestine, you need the US to be part of this.

36:18Lots of these things are just not going to happen without the US being at the table and being part of those discussions. And so in a way, I think one can have a position which says closer, deeper relationships with the European Union, continuing your alliance with the US, accepting that there'll be times when you disagree with the US administrations, but it doesn't mean that the enduring partnership doesn't carry on and isn't important.

36:47Rory Stewart:I guess the alternative view would be that, which is what Canada I think is doing, which is to say, let's actually work backwards and map all our dependencies, map all the ways in which we're now discovering that interdependency is now a choke point vulnerability that somebody can weaponize. We're going to list out who are we dependent on for cloud computing, who are we dependent on for AI, who are we dependent on for defense, who are we dependent on for critical and minerals and boroughs. And then we're going to work with Canada and Europe and perhaps South Korea and Japan, who knows, to fund an entirely autonomous third source of supply across all those domains so that in the future, if God forbid you were dealing with the US administration that decided to deny you access to the latest frontier AI model, or God forbid, switch off the Google accounts of the International Criminal Court, or God forbid, suddenly close the Strait of Hormuz through some war with Iran, you would have some form of resilience and independence.

37:48Rory Stewart:And that will be absolutely critical. And that you, I'm afraid, if you don't do it, in 20, 25 years' time, people will be deeply critical, saying, could you not see the writing on the wall? Why didn't you do something about this? Well, where I'll come with you is that greater national resilience is an incredibly important part of the world that we are in. We're too small for national. We need regional resilience. National Residence is also working with others. I do accept that. And if you just think about what is happening in the Strait of Hormuz and what it's meant for energy prices and so on, the agenda that I used to be in charge of around energy and clean energy takes on even more importance.

38:29But look, I agree with you in that you want diverse partnerships, is the way I would put it. So we've talked about, you just mentioned the Strait of Hormuz. What do you really think about Trump and what he's done in Iran? What I would say to you is I wasn't in favor of us joining the action at the start of the conflict, as you know. I think Keir made the right call. I think it was a hard call to make because it doesn't tend to be what British prime ministers do. but now i mean what was this going on well now if i'm net look now if i'm frank we had the memorandum of understanding the peace agreement with between the u.s and iran and and iran has has actually broken it by attacking uh ships in the strait and and i think i i i think it is it is actually iran now that has moved away from that peace agreement and it constantly looks like you're going to get an agreement between iran and oman to get back on track and allow the strait to reopen.

39:33And Iran just keeps pushing, making greater demands, pushing further demands. And I don't want to see a nuclear Iran. Nuclear Iran is dangerous for the world. So I didn't agree with the action. What we need now is a proper ceasefire, the strait reopened, the nuclear talks to recommence, Iran to have its ability to access a nuclear weapon put beyond reach um and this was incredibly important and it's part of do you have any sense of the uk having any ability really to shape the response that is required from the

40:08Rory Stewart:united states to meet to move towards those goals yes i do actually because i think that is that why we never call them out well when you say that we did say at the beginning we were you said you wouldn't join the action you paid we couldn't have we couldn't have been clearer at the beginning of the action. At the beginning, but then since then this thing's gone on and on, the economic hit continues, and it's like we're spectators. And now we're increasingly following American talking points on this. It's very difficult to see distinction between what an American spokesman would say about Iran and what we would say about Iran.

40:38Rory Stewart:Well, I'm not sure I... Where would you differ from an American spokesman on the situation in Iran? Well, because we thought it was wrong to join the conflict to begin with. Today, in the analysis of who's to blame, you are essentially saying all the blame rests with the Iranians and the US haven't done anything wrong here. Certainly, mischaracterization of what I'm saying, because I wasn't in favor of the offensive action against Iran to begin with, nor was the British government. All else has flowed from that. But you've got two different positions. You're just wanting me to keep talking about what shouldn't have been done at the beginning.

41:14Rory's talking about something else. Well, what I would say to you is our work with our Gulf allies who are trying to get some kind of breakthrough and agreement. My conversations with Marco Rubio, my job as foreign secretary is to help the British people with the terrible cost of living crisis they face. And one of the biggest contributors to that is the fact that the strait is closed. So my job is not to say what should have happened at the beginning. My job is to say, okay, what can we do now to get out of the mess we're in? And that is absolutely what my diplomatic focus is on. That's what I talked to the Secretary of State, US Secretary of State about.

41:57That's what I talked to. In the first week in the job, I went to Doha, I went to Qatar, talked to the prime minister about what can we do to try and get this thing back on track.

42:08Rory Stewart:But the risk is, it sounds like you're saying what we can do is force the Iranians to the table. In other words, the diagnosis that's being presented from the White House on what we do about it is, forget about the initial invasion. Now, it's the Iranians' fault. It's the Iranians' break the ceasefire. Answer, what do we do about it? We put the pressure on Iran militarily and economically until they open the strait, and the US keeps putting on the pressure until that happens, which is, from my mind, a recipe for actually continuing blockade, continuing cost of living, and this thing not being resolved in the next nine months.

42:42Well, look, I am not saying that the answer is offensive military action against Iran. I do believe that economic pressure on Iran makes sense. And look, talk to our Gulf partners who are still under attack from Iran. They've got a different perspective maybe from what you're saying.

43:03Rory Stewart:I think their perspective would be hell on both their houses. We are furious with the US and Israel were furious with Iran, and the loss of them need to stop it. They see this as fury with Iran, but they also appreciate the extent to which this is tit for tat in relation to US and a razor. I do think I've been very clear about the position we took on the original conflict. I don't think I could make no bones about that. We didn't think it was the right thing to do. I come back to this point that I think the most important thing I can do, because I am concerned about the impact this is going to have on people at home, is, and this is a sort of point about British diplomacy, it goes back to your point about what influence can Britain have.

43:53I know this is kind of like the kind of thing I would say, but thought leadership is incredibly important. That is what the British diplomatic service, British civil service is respected for thought leadership based on values based on our our expertise and that is what we're trying to do the hard yards of diplomacy to find a way through the the situation that we're in mark carney's leading the world on that though isn't he definitely what you mean on middle powers well just i think if there's a if there's a voice that's sort of giving a bit of hope and a bit of leadership to you've done it last week on a specific issue but i think in general terms mark carney i mean our friend the mooch calls him he's the current leader of the western world and i may overstate it but i wonder if we're doing i don't even have been there two months but i wonder if there's not a lot more that we could do well look in a way i think what last week does have a wider a wider relevance which is we stood up for what we think was right now Now, some people would have said, oh, I wouldn't do that if I were you.

44:58The US might be annoyed. Israel might be annoyed. That's not what British governments do. I mean, I don't want to sort of overstate this, but I think it was quite a big moment last week what we did. And the way I think about it is we want to be bold in our values. We want to be strong in the actions we take, and we want to build alliances. And that's the approach I'm going to try and take as Foreign Secretary in a very complex world.

45:28Rory Stewart:My final question, Miriam from Cardiff, which is essentially to say, for goodness sake, please don't stop there. I mean, it would be a tragedy if you launched your time as Foreign Secretary taking one big, clear, bold position and thereafter didn't see how many opportunities that opens up. I just beg to say, you've done the right thing there. Do the right thing on the United States. Call out a changing world. Understand why the one thing for some reason Starmer could never say, which is Trump shows us the world's changed. We can't go back to what so many people in the British government want to do, which is pretend it's all going to be all right when he goes away.

46:07Rory Stewart:We'll be able to get back to the thing. I don't think I am pretending that when I talk about - Carney's been so brave because he's so clear about where America poses a threat. We haven't heard you express what Carney seems to be able to do very, very articulately, which is to point to Greenland, point to the statements on Canada, point to what's happened in Iran, point to the tariffs, point to what he's saying on United Ireland, and say, put all that together. We cannot continue in the way we have. We need an independent policy, independent of the US, and this is what the structure is going to be?

46:41Look, much of what you say, I don't demur from on the specific issues. I think my only point here is our alliance with the US matters. But if what you're saying is we need to recognize the world has changed, particularly regarding our relationship with Europe and the importance of our relationship with the European Union, but also working with middle-sized powers beyond that, 100%. And that's what we're going to do. Final one from me relates actually to the process that led to you being in this job. Somebody at this event last night said to me, it said in the Q &A that followed the film, Keir Starmer lost his job because he got the line wrong on Gaza.

47:27Now, that's a very, very big statement. But I do think that Labour at the time underestimated the political damage that they were doing to themselves and he was doing to himself. Is this part of trying to fix that? And I know you're going to say we're just doing the right thing, but you could have, you know, the previous Labour government, the Stama government could have done the right thing because the facts haven't changed that much in recent weeks and months since you came on, since you came into the job. And the final thing I want to ask you is just whether, I get why you don't want to say genocide and understand that, but do you think Netanyahu is a war criminal?

48:07And do you think that if he did come to the UK, we should feel his collar? Well, the latter point was a matter for the courts. Well, it's not actually. No, it is. It is. The question of the ICC and so on is, no, no, it's a different situation. That is a matter for the courts. But let me go to your first question. I think it is sort of quite fundamental. And I'll end on a more personal note. You knew my mom who died at the end of May. and, you know, Jewish refugee, most appalling wartime experience. Lost her father, 60 relatives in the concentration camps. Before she got ill, one of the things she really saw, she saw 20 years of her life to was the situation of the Palestinians.

48:54And, you know, politics is a, the timing was a strange thing, but, you know, she died at the end of May. And frankly, in the last few weeks, I've thought a lot about, as I wrestled with this statement and what I should say and what I shouldn't say and how far I should go, I wrestled a lot with what she would say. And she'd say, look at what is happening to Palestinians. Look at what is happening to these poor people. It's wrong and you've got to call it out. And, you know, was saying ethnic cleansing a big deal? Partly because of what the term connotes. Yes. And I thought a lot about that. I thought a lot about talking about war crimes.

49:34And I thought, well, actually, she would be saying, you know, for goodness sake, you've got to say what is happening. You've got to be willing to tell the truth. You know, the least that the poor people who are suffering are owed is the truth. And then to try and do something about it. And genuinely, Alistair, you know, we did what we did. Yes, Gaza has mobilized a whole generation of people. But those people were right, not wrong. And we did what we did because it was genuinely because it's the right thing to do. It's the morally right thing to do. And also, there's something about – we talked about British influence a lot in this.

50:09We lose influence when people think, well, you're willing to call out what's happening there, but you're just not willing to talk about this particular issue. You just won't talk about this issue. And I'm really struck by the number of people, Global South and so on, who've been in touch with me since I made the statement, who said, thank goodness someone's actually called this out.

50:30Rory Stewart:Thank you very much indeed. Thank you for your time. Thank you for giving us more time. Thank you Ed. Become a Trip Plus subscriber. Become a Trip Plus subscriber. Thank you. Cheers. Cheers. Well, I wonder, Alastair, whether I wasn't getting frustrated in the way that I usually do about wealth taxes. Yeah. You weren't quite well taxed. You got close at one point. I haven't quite well taxed. I think it's that I'm worried that having done something very bold on Gaza, in the end, it's a bit business as usual. The truth of the matter is that Gaza has become an incredibly powerful symbol. And in British progressive politics, I think people want to talk about almost nothing except this.

51:10Rory Stewart:And I think that what Edmond Levan did was completely right. But the truth of the matter is that it's unlikely to actually generate two-state solution. I think he's being serious actually about how impossible a two-state solution is. And then when we move away from that region, from the great thing that he's so proud of and that his mother would have loved him to do, to try to think about where Britain should be in 15 years, I've almost felt like I was back to talking about the Foreign Office from 15 years ago. I can imagine if Ed Llewellyn's listening or Lindy Cameron's listening or half the diplomats are listening, they will very much be on the Foreign Secretary's side and saying, Rory's not being realistic.

51:53Rory Stewart:He's still trying to push for some love actually moment. But I think Mark Carney has actually weirdly produced a space for that. He's actually given people permission. And we found this. I mean, when all your friends that we've interviewed, the Norwegian Prime Minister Janis Gassara, the Finnish president, almost all the other European leaders actually are beginning to find a way to talk more confidently about a post-Trump world. Yeah, I think the only place in the interview where you were getting close to your wealth tax rage was when, as you say, he was speaking some of the White House talking points.

52:30You know, I'm determined that Iran doesn't get a nuclear weapon, da, da, da. And I think there is a balance. I don't think we should underestimate how difficult this balance is. And the difference, of course, with Mark Carney is that Trump has openly stated an existential threat to Canada, which means that the duty and responsibility of Mark Carney to stand up against that, first of all, is what made him prime minister in the first place, because he was so strong about it during the election campaign against Ballyebra. but secondly not least last week with yet another of his stupid ai things where he's you know puts iceland and greenland and canada under an american flag on one of his ai things and and the other thing i would say i don't know what ed milliband and andy burnham were going to say on foreign policy at the labor party conference but i'm i'm hopeful that is the next stage at which there is another shift forward on this for me for me personally having watched this and this film really did make an impact on me and Fiona last night I think having watched it I will now make sure he does follow up on that because I think anybody who sees these British doctors talking the way they do about the experiences they've had I think he will want to go further because what he last week it was about the west bank but part of what the whole trumpian madness of the world does is we just move on if last night there was in the film there was a bit about do you remember the the humanitarian fund the gaza humanitarian fund when you know there was this whole new let's keep all the aid agencies out i'd completely forgotten about it i totally forgotten about it and there it was it's not that long ago reliving a total catastrophe of an american initiative which backfired and so i think that he's having to work out whether in a way you sort of ignore and park american stuff i mean it's really interesting if you think about it we're going to talk about this on on the main podcast there was a time when trump an american president saying there should be united ireland that's what we'd have been talking about today it would have been utterly it would have been it would have been epoch making global news trump talks such nonsense most of the

54:41Rory Stewart:They can ignore it. Well, it is interesting, isn't it? Because you were saying quite rightly that a lot of Mark Carney's entire political project is about opposing Trump. But it is interesting to a lot of European leaders seem to be more confident talking about strategic autonomy and why we can't be as reliant on the US and actually being open about all the difficult decisions we would have to make to be less dependent on the US. And here's a great, the United Island thing is a great example. I mean, you said Trump's an existential threat to Canada. It's a pretty existential threat to the United Kingdom for the President of the United States, who this guy says is the only guy who can make things happen, the only guy who can fix the Iran war, the only guy who can bring the two-state solution.

55:25Rory Stewart:That same guy is saying Northern Ireland should be part of the Republic of Ireland, right? So I think he's got to feel in his gut what you and I feel, which is the world's changed. And I think actually the government is behind the public. When we started this podcast three, four years ago, we were having to convince the public in a way that we were in an age of populism and conflict and the rules-based international order was collapsing. And it was quite difficult to do because Biden was still in. Even early Trump things, people would be like, this is Trump derangement syndrome. Now, if you say to people, the world is becoming more dangerous, more conflict-rigged, more populist, more divided, everyone's like, yeah, yeah, okay, So what are you going to do about it?

56:06Rory Stewart:Answer, what are you going to do about it? And you have to work back from that. It isn't just we need more national resilience or we like the European Union, it's we're doing it because we don't want to be dependent on the US and China. Yeah, I also do think, I mean, we had BRICS last week. And okay, they had one or two differences over, particularly over Iran. But they are developing a new outlook, new structures, new systems they're drawing in new countries and i think what i'd love to see britain lead into and by the way i think mark carney is quite confident this will happen but i i'd like to see um whether whether you give them a label or you don't but those countries that still have the values of democracy rule of law anti-corruption all the stuff that's just vanished in the united states and i get why he can't say that he's a politician we're not active politicians he can't say it in the same way.

57:02But I do think he can say, let's rededicate ourselves to the rule of law and let's work out a structure.

57:11Rory Stewart:Let's do that on democracy. Human rights. Here's a narrative. I wonder whether he could say, could he say, listen, we have so much affection and admiration for the United States, but the United States itself has said they want people to be more independent and have more autonomy. and we have to recognize from what we've seen over the last few years that it would be very dangerous for Britain to be too dependent on any other country, even a country that is a friend. And so we are going to create a whole series of new alliances whose exact purpose is to give us more resilience. Yeah. And there's plenty of them.

57:50That's not offensive, is it?

57:53Rory Stewart:He should be able to say that yeah totally totally yeah anyway it was good of him to come in he's uh he's got quite a lot on his plate he's off to ungrish shortly but uh yeah thank you all of those listeners who send in questions sorry we couldn't get through it's impossible to do over a thousand it really is rory by the way i know you sometimes you think i'm too active on my phone while these things i was actually fixing for the doctor doctor victoria rose who is just a heroine to write a piece of the newsletter. So if you want to get the newsletter, which surely you must, you sign up at therestofpolitics.com forward slash newsletter.

58:28And Dr. Victoria Rose is amazing. Thank you very much, Hester. Thank you.

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59:10Rory Stewart:Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms.