A World Champion Athlete & Oscar-Nominated Writer on Mindset, Performance & Persistence

27:51Right, right. And I mean, I'm super lucky in that I've married an amazing man who has spent his life being a top researcher. So I think, you know, digging deep into the landscape of any craft that you're in and finding absolute joy in the mastery of the craft. And what does that mean? So taking every, you know, screenwriting class we can imagine, knowing every theory that's out there, kind of almost like knowing everything so that you can let it go and find your own way, which again, is ever evolving and it depends on which project you're working with, which artists you're collaborating with. You know, is it a studio film?

28:32Is it an independent film? There's so many different facets, but that's kind of the beauty in it. So yeah, just kind of, I think, and it's the same in sport, knowing almost, you know, getting obsessive about knowing everything so that then you can find your own little path. Right, well, triathletes are notorious for just being obsessed with data and they walk around with blinders on and just think about their training. And it's so individualistic, right? It's about you and you. Screenwriting, filmmaking is a collaborative art. It's political, there's a lot of strong personalities, a lot of opinions, there's money involved.

29:10There's so many complexities. That puzzle is comprised of millions of pieces. and it's very challenging for the most savvy political operator and the most talented creative to navigate that to a place where a movie actually gets made. It's like a miracle any movie gets made. And that's an incredibly different skillset than just, I need to hit these Watts and I'm training seven hours a day. It's just me in the basement or me out on the pavement. It is and it's not right because you're always having to navigate the many different things it's going to make you have a good performance on any given day whether that's you know how you're going to sleep what you're going to eat what the facility is like then you've got you know as you are doing that activity all of the tiny little details that come into making that a good session so for example swimming shit you know, technique in swimming, are you kidding me?

30:10It's like, okay, if you've got a slight pivot of the right hand and then you're coming and then, you know, get that elbow high and da, da, da, da, da, you're thinking about all the muscles. So there's so many different things that come together to create a good performance that you have to think about on a daily basis. So I think actually I've developed. And you're not good at it until you're not thinking about it at all. Right. Which is what we all seek. And it comes very rarely. You know, of course, we all know it's called being in the zone. Right. And I've experienced it only a handful of times to a real top level.

30:48and that is the thing that everybody is chasing when it all comes together and you barely remember it. But there's just this beautiful meditative moment where your mind and body have just gone and it's fucking poetry. Yeah, and there's only so much you can do to invite that into your life. It has its own energy. You can set up the circumstances for that to arrive, but you can never put yourself in a position to be dependent on that. Right. And I think that through hours, you know, I was always known as an athlete that would train a lot. I try and put myself in every single circumstance I could in order to create those neural pathways, right?

31:34So that I could cope with anything and still come up with the goods. And I think that that's again, why I've reached success is I've just kind of worked harder than anyone else. You know, I've pushed to the absolute fucking limit day upon day upon day and taken great joy in that as well. Like, what am I capable of today? And I really think about like, why, where does this need come from? And again, you know, coming back to my dad and it's interesting, a lot of our scripts have father-daughter relationships in it. I love my dad. I'm so close with him. But, you know, he is from that school of if you're too emotional, you're weak.

32:14and my mom was a very emotional person. So from a very young age, I saw emotion as being a weakness. So I thought if I could wrestle my brain and get on top of it, that I was a winner, that I'd succeeded. So I think my pursuit of finding that zen in sport, that zone, that moment is all about have I been able to control my brain? Oof, it's getting deep and dark in here. And your emotions when they should and need to come out, when being emotive is a benefit. Right. You know, when you're writing, you need to be in touch with that sensibility. And when your dad comes in and you find that it's helpful for you to kind of shut it down a little bit, to grit yourself through whatever painful experience you're about to encounter.

33:08Right. Right. Interestingly, I wrote my master's thesis on something called task emotion theory. Don't ask me too much about it because I can't even bloody remember. But the essence of it is taking the emotional essence or the value of an emotion and putting that in a character when you're acting. So even if that emotional quality is nerves or anxiety, you're seeing that is kind of having a value. And then you're taking that and you're putting it in to fuel you. It's almost like you're gas, right? So I kind of saw emotion as a good thing rather than a bad thing. So you take that emotion and you fuel it towards, you use it as a task emotion.

33:58Interesting. So yeah. That's what happens in theater school. You write thesis papers. I thought it was just mask work and you know. I know, dancing. Let's pretend to be a tree. No, but you know, the funny thing is, is I studied my undergraduate in drama and English at Loughborough University in England. And it was a very, very theoretical degree. And I loved it. I love just digging deep into the theory of theater and the history and, you know, all of that. And again, that critical analysis has really helped me now that I'm in the world of storytelling and screenplay writing. And it's far, you know, the magic is that you don't see it as an audience member.

34:43But the brutality is, is every single tiny little piece is an intricate bit that is put together to create this end result. And it's the same in sport. You train for hours and hours and hours and hours to have this perfect performance. and then everyone goes, oh my God, you're so amazing. You're so lucky. Wow, you're so talented. And I'm thinking, you have no fucking idea. Do you know what I mean? And I've had arguments with age groupers. I'm not joking. Like if I'm super, like maybe I'm hungry or I'm tired. I remember one day being in the shower after a master's swim session and this lady said to me, oh man, I would love to just be able to train all day.

35:23And I said, would you like to pay your mortgage by training all day? Do you know, I mean, there's just no, again, it's an amazing thing. I love it and I feel so privileged and lucky to have done it. But at the same time, it's fucking hard work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure you get asked all the time how these two worlds inform each other, how being an athlete makes you a better screenwriter vice versa. But I'm sure these worlds come into conflict also and work at cross purposes with each other when you're on a deadline and you really wanna get out and ride, Like what wins when those two worlds collide in that way?

35:59At the moment, I think because my life has been so much about training, that I'll just like not sleep and get up and get my three hours of training. I've read like you'll get up at two in the morning, three in the morning, like if it's a busy day, just no matter what. And I'm sitting here thinking, you just went to the Oscars, you're having this incredible moment right now where doors are opening up and you're probably getting offered all kinds of cool stuff to do. I know you just got back from London and did this fashion thing and you earned that and it's okay to go do that. Like you've trained a lot, like you can take a break.

36:38It's cool. It's always there. So it's like, this moment will not visit you again and I'm sure you'll go on and have many more successes, but there's only one first and there's something really special about that. And it would be tragic from my perspective if you like shunned those because you needed to be on your trainer. Oh, totally, totally. And I think like I, to be honest, I wrestle with that a lot because I think to get to the level I have in sport, it's an addiction. Sure. It's not like I'm saying to you, I'm just gonna go train because I wanna do well at a race or I wanna be fit, no, it's an addiction.

37:20Yeah, like to put a exclamation point on this, I mean, you, so the film premiered at the Toronto Film Festival, fall of 2021. Yeah, right. Is that right? And you like left the screening and like drove five hours to go compete in the world championship. But you know what, I like that crazy shit. You know, it's also part of who I am. and that's where my joy comes from. So I think it's like finding, and I hate the word balance, but just assessing every day, like where's the importance and can I face, you know, this need to train and push that aside and focus on what's important. And I think that the balance will start to turn as we get more films going.

38:12Because really, truly, the only thing that takes me away from training in a way is the joy of the creativity. When we're collaborating, when we're on set, when I'm working through a problem and then I'm just in this place of wonderment about the world. So if I can kind of push aside those - The obsessiveness that you apply to sport is just transferred over to the joy and the love of solving a creative problem. Totally, oh, it is. But at least I feel like that is more enhancing in my life because any story that we're doing, any project that we're a part of, it has some bigger purpose. I want the films and stories I tell.

39:00And it's forever. Yeah. You lay it down and it's for other people to see and to have an impact on. And those are the types of projects that we're choosing to do.

39:18I'm sorry. You said when you have all these projects going on, then maybe you'll have more balance. And my head is going, first of all, no, you won't. But secondly, that still presumes that you're in pursuit of balance. And I don't think that you are. I think you're somebody who has come to terms with yourself that balance is not for you or you feel alive in your unique extreme approach to your life, which is something I share and appreciate it. And it took me a long time to not feel guilty about that and to let go of trying to adhere to some imaginary social standard of what a balanced life should be and look like.

40:03And you're an example of that. And somebody who I know has thought a lot about that word balance and what it means. Oh, yeah. And I hate it and I love it all at the same time. I think it means different things to different people. I think for me, it means sitting back and understanding maybe what's important or how to fuel your soul in a different way and not going down the rabbit hole of obsession to the point of it breaking you down, which it has done in the past and it can continue to do sometimes. I kind of dig, dig, I push, push, push, and then I fall off a cliff. And that seems to be my rhythm in life.

40:46Right, but I think the trick or the Jedi move is to not fall off the cliff, like to push and know yourself well enough because it's not a marathon, it's an ultra marathon, and you got a lot going on and a big bright future ahead. and you wanna have that energy and enthusiasm 10, 20 years from now that you have today. And there's something unsustainable about that extreme kind of rigor of pushing yourself in that way that as somebody who's a little older than you, I can tell you at some point you gotta find a new way, a little bit of a new way while honoring that aspect of who you are. And I think like my art helps me realize that because you're digging into different facets of society, different people, how they operate.

41:43And it's giving you that self-reflective ability about what's important. What do you love? How do you address those inner demons? Like it's really helping. It's like your own form of therapy. so um I know what's good for me and what can pull me back um and we always do it so you know for me it's definitely spending time in my family I don't have children myself and and that's been something I've wrestled with like do I do it or not and so spending time with like nieces nephews brothers sisters like making the effort even although you're like I'm so busy I can't do it blah blah Once you actually do it, you're like, oh my God, there's so much joy and happiness that comes from that.

42:26So I think I know what you're talking, like I know where the edge of the cliff is and I know the things that kind of bring me back and they kind of center me. Your partnership with your husband is super interesting too because this is somebody that you've met while out riding, another kind of endurance enthusiast who also, is he a neuroscientist also, psychologist? He's a psychologist. PhD, so brain performance guy turned like screenwriter producer, like that's like a very interesting pivot and it's in its own right for him to kind of shift his attention, interest and curiosity, more in the direction of kind of where you were coming from and this collaboration that you have that goes kind of uncredited on his part, it seems like, but you're always certain to make sure that, But now you have this production company and you've got all these things going on.

43:23And he's really headlining that with me. I think it, again, it's an artifact of growing up in the UK, right? Being British, you're on a track, you do your undergraduate, your graduate, your masters, your PhD, your postdoc, you get your job and that's what you're supposed to do. It's the social norm. And then you get there and you think, oh, fucking hell, I don't like it. Like what the hell? and most people at that point, they're married, maybe they've had children, they have a lot of demands and they have a lot of fear to take a jump. And I've spent my life taking jumps. So when Simon got to that point in his career in academia where he was hating it, I said, babe, get up.

44:04He's like, you're in your track position. What? But, you know, probably most other partners would have said, oh, but we've got the mortgage to pay or what about the pension or such a good job. Will you get anything again? It doesn't mean shit if you're not happy. So I've always been driven by that. So then he got out of it. And of course he spent his life writing, albeit academically writing, but he, you know, he's so creative. And then when you're a psychologist, it's all about subtext of people. So then writing characters for him just has been second nature. so we have this sort of amazing partnership now where we come to the table with very different skill sets I'm a lot more macro I'm a lot more story structure architecture, character development, concepts all the stuff I was trained in at uni and then he's nitty gritty scenes getting in the world you know of the dialogue and he'll just like jump in it so we have it's really wild after 20 years of my age to just have so much so much bloody fun.

45:09Do you know what I mean? That's cool. Yeah, we're like be bopping around and we've got a project set in Ghana. We just met the king of Ashanti in London. Oh, wow. In what world, you know what I mean? And we're like, we both looked at each other last week when we were meeting the king and we're like, you know what? Yeah, well, it's a function of cultivating and acting on that intuitive voice, right? You talked about your life being one of taking these leaps, and you probably get more used to taking them the more that you take them, right? And you know, because it's worked out, like this is a good way for you to follow your heart.

45:53But what does that look like for you when you have to make a leap or a big decision? How are you checking in with yourself? How is that decision made? What part of your process involves like what the head is telling you or the fears or the insecurities? Or are you just like, no, this is my, I need to do this. And even if it doesn't make sense on paper, this is where I'm going. My biggest fear in life is missing out. I have major formal so that I did not take an opportunity. I don't care if I fail, if I'm crap, if it doesn't pan out, if I have not taken that opportunity. So that's actually what gets me into trouble is do, you know, taking on too much or, you know, yeah, just always trying to, you know, be someone that is taking up every opportunity.

46:41You know, I gotta get obsessed with that. Right. Like now I'm sure you're shellacked with all kinds, like you could, if you said yes to all the cool stuff, people are inviting you to, you would never get anything done. No, totally. And I've, I'm not joking. I've kind of, you know, and I'm kind of at that point where I'm like, okay, now I need to say no. now I need to like focus on the task at hand. But luckily again, I've had those skills, right? From sport, how do you refine your process? How do you figure out where you want to go and what are the steps that are going to take you there? And I know where I want to go.

47:13So you have to always kind of check in with the steps that are going to get you there. Right. And sort of, I think a lot of the other, a lot of the other stuff is about ego and sort of what makes you feel good or what's giving you a pat on the back or I just have a lot of inherent confidence. Like I don't, I love being shit at stuff. I know that sounds weird and silly, but it means that therefore I can jump in and figure out how to get better at it. And the pursuit of that is where I find my meaning and where I find my joy. Yeah. That's so important to have that beginner's mind and to not get caught up in the perception of failure because then you're jumping into all different kinds of things all the time and doing it for the joy and the learning experience of it rather than how people are gonna perceive you if you don't do it perfectly.

48:13Right. I'm curious where that comes from because I think that's hard rot for a lot of people. They don't wanna try new things. It's just easier to keep doing the thing that you're pretty good at or that people kind of socially approve you for? I think it's the love of suffering. And you can sort of assess that any which way you will. And interestingly, I've been digging into Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning for another project. And I seek that, I seek the suffering. And again, I don't know if that's that Calvinistic, the deficit model. You can't truly have joy if you haven't had pain.

48:58And absolutely that has been my mantra for life. So I always seek the pain, whatever that looks like. Yeah, whether that's physical, whether that's mental. And I don't mind if that comes with not being good at something. Do you feel when you're writing a screenplay that if you haven't bled on the page that you haven't given it everything that you have? Like, is there a way to create with ease or do you think the best artistic expression that you're capable of requires the level of suffering and pain that is demanded from endurance sports? I think that, I guess I don't observe it like that. Something is good or it's not, or you have a sense that it's good or it's not, or it's gonna make head where it's not.

49:54Every single script is incredibly difficult to write because we want our scripts to be layered with a lot of depth, which involves deep, deep thought on every single level. Whether that's the impact, you know, what do you want the audience to feel when they walk out of the movie theater or, you know, off their phone or however they watch it? and to create that feeling in an audience member takes so much intricate, you know, putting together of these puzzles. It's like a mathematical problem to figure it out. So some scripts are definitely easier to write than others and they just kind of come out.

50:34But even if they kind of come out, they go through so many different iterations, you know, along the way. Once you get feedback from your mentors, once you get a director on board, once you get an actor on board, It's gonna go through all these iterations and that's the beauty of it. You layer it and layer it and layer it. So the really, truly great films, you know, have this collaboration of all of these wonderful minds. And if you open yourself up to that, that's where the beauty of it comes. The best idea wins. And the best ideas in a layered sense are conveyed cinematically with great intentionality, but also incredible efficiency, so that they become almost the backdrop.

51:18So an example of that in my mind would be in All Quiet on the Western Front, the recycling of the uniforms that were introduced to in the beginning. Like it barely, it's not even really in the forefront of what's actually happening, but just the process of seeing that says so much about what's actually happening. It's the entire theme of the movie is built into that sequence, right? So it's a genius device that happens, you know, in a matter of seconds, that's incredibly profound and stays with you. And so that's not something like the, however that idea came about, is not something you could will into being, it's almost like a gift from the beyond, right?

52:04To discover, to have that discovery and then translate that onto a page and ultimately onto film. And I guess that's about preparing, preparing, preparing so that you can let it go and have it come to you. And then it allows itself to express. And I'm sure it comes to you when you're training, right? That's the other thing. Like, yeah, like, cause then you're in that space of that. There's something about the breath and the elevated heart rate that creates vacancy or space in your mind for that inspiration to come. Totally. And I'm thinking, I'm trying to imagine you, because I know what I do when you're out and you're in the middle of a session and you have something like that hits, how do you capture that?

52:47Because I know what it's like to say, I got it. And then at the end of the session, I've forgotten the idea. Do you stop and write it down in a note? Do you record a voice memo? Do you just repeat it to yourself so you don't forget it? Sometimes it's just a feeling. So it might not be as concrete as a natural idea. So sometimes it's just a sense of something. and then I percolate that sense and then come up with an idea. So maybe I'll use a whole run. I get a sense of something and then I start to like bounce around. Okay, what about this? What about that? Well, I need to do this, but what about...

53:21And it just evolves and I let it evolve. And then once it's done that, then I'll kind of, okay. Oh my God. Pull over in the car or whatever. No, I forgot it. You know, or I'll be, you know, in the middle of a gym workout or I'll be up the side of a mountain and calling Simon, oh my God, I figured it out. Yeah, so it's again, sort of preparing your mind enough to be able to let it go. And that means watching a lot, reading a lot, understanding what you need out of a scene, like an opening scene, for example, is so important. It captures, as you said, the essence, the thematic essence of what you're trying to say in this film.

54:08So it's very, very important. But you want to do it in a way that isn't what we call on the nose. You're not directly saying it, you're indirectly saying it. But then you've got the parameters of the story that you're telling. So for All Quiet, for example, we knew we wanted to start on the battlefield because it was really important to give the audience a sense of this is the world that you're going to be a part of for the next, you know, two and a half hours. but our main character Paul we needed him still to be at home to be caught up in the patriotic verve that was a really important part of the story so you're like okay so we need to start out in the battlefield but then we need to track and come back home how do we do that so you start to put all of these kind of pieces together and then bit by bit you know you figure it out and interestingly I figured that piece out because I just watched Schindler's List and there's a sequence in there with a girl with a red coat, where the whole film is in black and white and there's this girl in this red coat and you see her, you know, sort of walking around.

55:09And then of course you see her body in this red coat. And it was so beautiful and heart wrenching. And that's, you know, so I watch a lot, I read a lot, I think about those parameters and then boom, something will come. And then you build on that, right? So for example, Ed, our director, Edward Berger, he's a co-writer on the script also. He elevated it even more by at the end of the sequence where you follow the uniform back and the tag is taken off. The tag is dropped on the ground along with loads of other pilot tags. That wasn't in our original script. So all the time you're getting these concepts elevated by both the script writer, the co-script writers, the director, then you've got the music, then you've got the cinematography, all these layers of meaning, which just add up.

55:59And it's the same as sport, all of these different layers that you're building on, to create this performance and to create this film. So it just makes sense in my head, how one helps the other. Yeah, it's fascinating and inspiring. But we haven't even gotten to the really compelling aspect of this story, which is the grit and the perseverance and the determination and the patience that you demonstrated to birth this project to the screen. So in the timeline of your life, we're only at rugby and ballet. Come on, Rich. We don't have nine hours, we have plenty of time, but basically you get into running, fell running after that, you find your way via your dad into triathlon, You have a lot of success pretty quickly out of the gate.

56:55As a triathlete, you pursue it in college. And despite your success, you realize like you're just not gonna, you're just kind of a rung shy of the Commonwealth Games slash Olympic team caliber in this ITU world of draft legal and where you have to be really fast as a swimmer, which is not your main thing, which disheartens you from the sport. And you ultimately, I don't know why I'm telling your story. You should be telling it, but I'm trying to get to the good part. You get to the part. This leads you to kind of step back from sport for a while. You come out to San Diego with Simon. Am I on the timeline right?

57:34And you get your master's in theater and you're gonna pursue this career in the arts initially as an actor. Right, which was bananas. And again, that was like, you know, facing your fears. I'm this, you know, wee girl from Scotland and all of a sudden you're in Hollywood doing auditions for directors, albeit, you know, for small films and student films and so on. But I had so much joy in that period of my life because I was so disappointed at being a failure in sport, or at least not feeling like it wasn't even about realizing my potential, it's that I'd lost my passion. So again, I'll come back to sort of finding joy in the process of what I'm doing and the mastery of the craft.

58:22And I'd lost that with triathlon because I'd been funneled down a path that didn't suit me into a sport that didn't suit me that I didn't find joy in. And I didn't think there was any other way to do it. And it wasn't until I came out to California and got into the arts again that I rekindled, oh my God, I'm really passionate about Oh my God, I really love it. I'm so excited. I can't sleep because I just wanna get up and do it. You know, and - And what a gift because most athletes upon retirement, I mean, let's face it, you know, it's only the rare few that make it to the Olympic team. It's interesting that you characterized that aspect of your career as a failure.

59:03You did great. You just weren't gonna go to that next level that very few get to. So I would consider that a success, but that aside, in retirement, It's very rare for that individual to recapture the passion that they had in sport in some other field. Right. And it's super fascinating when you look at athletes and how many suffer from deep depression, anxiety. There's a lot of, you know, high suicide rates, post athletic career. Because you've had such focus, because you've had such drive and, you know, and then you've lost that, you know, where's your purpose and meaning? and that's why I've always kindled these two separate pieces of my life that have given me equal joy in different ways and never let any one of them go and anytime I do let one go too much or one is elevated too much I actually kind of like don't become a good person in a way like I'm very very challenged I need to keep some semblance of both going at all times yeah and And yeah, so I think coming back to studying a master's, being in a different world, getting to sort of reinvent myself in California, do crazy shit, act in like horror films, get eaten in the half by a chupacabra.

1:00:27Yeah, did you do some like slasher stuff? Oh my God, Rich, buddy. Can we find that? Yes, you can, it's super embarrassing. Like Roger Corman type stuff? But it's like, you know, naff American accent, you know, like stupid blonde girl giggling, you know. I even at one point had to, yeah, I had to imagine getting eaten in half. And I was like tied up and I had to like give this big scream. And I'm thinking, but you know, it was just, it was so fun. It was so ridiculous. It was fun. I felt like I was living in a movie, you know, literally. Yeah. And then just the relationships are developed through that, you know, I felt like it was feeling my soul because the pursuit of endurance sport can be a very sort of myopic thing.

1:01:15It's, you know, you become very self-centered and, you know, kind of numb emotionally. And this just opened my world up again. And that's what I mean by if one takes off too much, then I'm in trouble because if I become too ethereal, too emotional, I don't, I lack the discipline. If I become too, you know, obsessive compulsive sports, like structure, structure, structure, I lose my sense of soul and being. So it's like, I always have to have bits of, bits of both. But, um, yeah. So then I think by finding myself again, by finding passion again, I then started, I vowed I would never do another triathlon again, no joke.

1:02:00When I came to California, I'm like, I'm not doing that fucking sport. It's really stupid. It's really crazy. What the hell? I was like watching a couple of buddies race. I'm like, who are those idiots? Flash forward, you know. But you're in San Diego, which is like the Mecca of all of this, right? Were you in the North County or were you like in the city down? I was in the sinful south. Yeah, it's like nobody from the north goes, you know, further south from Hawaii. All the triathlon geeks live up in the north. Yeah. Oh, they do, they do. And once you're accepted in that, you know, click, then you know, you rise to lofty heights.

1:02:33But yeah, so it was like, I was in this place, it was known for triathlon and I wasn't doing it, but then I kind of got the bug again and I got into cross country running and I started to meet some really cool people. And I was just like really ambivalent about it, really just getting back to enjoying it and being fit again and what that felt like. And then I found Xterra, which is all off-road triathlon. I was like, oh my God, this is like rugby plus triathlon equals Xterra. This is amazing. So, and I felt those butterflies in my stomach, like, oh my God. And I was like, I'm gonna give this a shot.

1:03:11And that was kind of it. I did my first one. And I remember I was racing against McKaylee Jones and a bunch of other big names. I was right up there and I'm like, I think I've just made my sport. Was that the one that you went back to Scotland and you just jumped in on a race and wanted or something like that? Or did that, or was that the lightning bolt moment that told you, oh, this world of XTERRA is like where I should be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you came back and you just start absolutely crushing it. And you win three world titles in XTERRA, right? Like 2011, 12 and 18. Right. Yeah. And then two other world championships in like offer, I don't even know what that is, like off-road.

1:03:57Yeah, it's cross triathlon. What is that? It's just the two different governing bodies. So, ITU has its own off-road triathlon governing body called ITU cross triathlon. So, they have their own events. So, it's like just two different governing bodies. So, yeah, that has been a crazy ride, man. That's been a crazy ride. Simultaneously, you make this decision. when was it 2006, 2008, that you are going to option this book written in 1929, called All Quiet on the Western Front that we all read in school. A lot of us of my generation saw the 1979 TV movie. There's the 1930 movie that won the Oscar, right?

1:04:42This is not a hot property. For some reason you decide to aim your focus on this project. So let's start with what struck you about this book and convinced you that this was worthy of your investment of not only time and energy, but significant resources. Yeah. A lot of moolah. So it was interesting. So as I got into the film world and I was acting, I met my co-writer on this project, Ian Stokow. And we teamed up and he said, listen, Les, if you wanna be an actor, you really have to write and produce your own stuff. If you wanna go far enough because then you have some kind of control over what you're doing.

1:05:27And that really made sense to me. Again, thinking outside the box about how to achieve. Especially since there's such a strong female lead in All Quiet in the Western Front. Hey man, we had a whole other storyline that had a great female role. I can't imagine how many drafts there were of this project over 16 years, but go ahead. And so, well, so then we started writing scripts together because I had not written before. And I was learning the craft and kind of enjoying it. And then we were both reading this book and I don't know what possessed us, but we wondered who had the rights to the book.

1:06:00Because here's the thing, when you're a writer or a producer and you're very much on the outside, you don't really have connections, you don't have an agent, you don't, none of that. You have to do something that's gonna set yourself apart. and certainly in this industry now, it's all about intellectual property, IP. If you have some kind of IP, that's a worth. That's something that's gonna set you apart from everyone else knocking on doors. So we were reading this book. It was like a sale at Barnes and Noble and Ian's like, gosh, I wonder who has the rights. And we both love war films. I mean, I love Saving Private Ryan.

1:06:35I love Apocalypse Now. These are all films I watch and watch and watch and watch because it's such war films. like they're this amazing canvas at its most extreme to really investigate character. And so World War I at that time had really not been done. And it's, there's so much tragedy, but so much beauty. It's like this alien landscape that visually is so arresting that I was, I was absolutely drawn to that. Like, gosh, we need a modern retelling of this story. So we went about, going to the estate of the author. Well, first of all, you would assume that some studio has it tied up just for the purpose of not letting anyone else make it.

1:07:17Correct. And as much as it didn't seem like a big title, that's a big title. Everybody knows about it. If it has that kind of recollection, that means it's worth something. So Universal had just let it lapse. So we jumped in, we made a bid, we pleaded our case, we said, this is how we wanna do it. and they said, okay, what the hell? So that was like, oh my God, we've made it. Right, and just for people who are listening or watching who don't understand what that means, as a former entertainment lawyer who did a million option agreements, you are purchasing an option on the property, which means you are paying for the exclusive right within a given period of time to buy the book, to make the movie.

1:08:05The option is a relatively nominal fee in comparison to the purchase price. It's basically saying no one else can buy this during this period of time except us. And for that right, we will pay you X. And in your case, it was like 15 to 20 grand a year. Was it where you were doing yearly annual renewals on it? Sometimes it was 12 months, sometimes it was 18. and it was about 10 ,000 to 15 ,000, which seems nominal to a big studio, which it is, but to your everyday, husband's an academic, earning not very much, you're a professional triathlete, like what? It was a lot of money. That was a lot of money.

1:08:47Yeah, your student, you're right out, this is during school or right when you got out of your master's program? Went right when I got out, yeah. And I was just, I think it was - Yeah, so who's got 10, 15 grand lying around to just say I have the right to shop this thing. I mean, shit, I was working at a bike shop for minimum wage, you know what I mean? So it's like, but there was something about it that and really Ian taught me this is you have to take risks. You have to take a gamble. You have to go for something if you really believe in it. And so we thought, well, why not just give it a go?

1:09:23You know, if this is what's gonna set us apart and give us a step up on the ladder. and yeah, that was what we thought. And as soon as we got it, I remember signing the paper, we faxed it. Would you believe that's how long ago it was? I remember getting the fax through and being like, oh my God. And yeah, we thought that's it, we've made it. You know? And then of course you have to adapt the fucking thing, which by the way is incredibly difficult because when you're taking a text like that that was written so long ago, So, you know, it certainly wasn't written cinematically. I mean, it's beautiful, it's poetic, thematically there's so much there, but it's like excerpts of a diary.

1:10:06And that's what, you know, as a screenplay writer, you're looking for some kind of direction, some kind of structure to hang it on, some kind of narrative through line. So that still respects the essence of the book. How do you do that? So that took multiple drafts. Do you go back and watch the 1979 version the 1931, or do you avoid those? Like you wanna learn, like from just a curiosity forensic perspective, like how did they structure it? And watching that after being so familiar with the book, you would get a sense of how they figured out what to focus on to create a narrative out of this series of diary entries.

1:10:46So we watched everything and anything. We read everything and anything that we could. We did as much research as we could. and then looking at the current landscape of film, what audiences respond to, what did we feel was important? How were we going to elevate this? Because one of the biggest questions was always going to be, well, why do this again? Why is it important? Why now? And that's a question that we come back to in all of our projects. Why is this relevant now? And if you can't answer that and answer it authentically and effectively, then don't do it. What was your answer to that then?

1:11:23I know the answer now. Yep. So then it was really about the betrayal of a youthful generation. Because that for me rung true because I'm Scottish. I'm of that underdog mentality where you're fighting against what you deem to be that upper brass. so I could really relate to being manipulated by something up here. So I love that aspect of it. So betrayal felt really potent and that's something that we dug into right from the get-go. And then for us, like I'm really fascinated by history in general, but also how we manipulate history depending on which side you're on. So once we dug into things like the reparations that Germany had to pay after World War I, the signing of the armistice, all of these different aspects of the story.

1:12:20It was fascinating. I'm like, we are not taught any of this. And of course the book was written when World War II had not occurred. So how to update it is to give it some kind of historical context that gives you an understanding of how World War I caused World War II, which I think is really critical in understanding how do we prevent things in the future? What does this mean? and how can we teach our audience in some way about what the future can hold? Sure, yeah.

1:13:00Yeah, I'm wondering whether that pitch at that time was sufficient enough to convince anyone to say, yes, we're doing this. Because when I think about the moment when the movie came out, it seemed to make so much more sense. It was very current and relatable in the context of what was happening in the Ukraine. And it was constructed on the shoulders of a couple developments in Hollywood that suddenly made the movie make sense. The first being the explosion of streaming, which created more outlets for production and distribution. the acceptance of foreign language cinema as a mainstream art by dint of movies like Parasite.

1:13:51And then thirdly, the success of 1917, of course, right? Which opened up the door, oh, these movies work. People do care about this period of time. None of which you could have scripted or imagined. They came about in the process, the 16 year journey that you went on to like get this movie made. but in 2006, seven, eight, when you're trying to get this thing up on its feet and you're knocking on doors, what is the response that you're getting? I mean, were you going in thinking, of course they're gonna wanna make this movie. Everybody knows this book, right? Totally. Well, our classic saying, we should've gotten t-shirts.

1:14:27Well, why wouldn't they? That was, why wouldn't they? You know, I think there was still some World War I movies coming out, you know, that we thought like a very long engagement and things like that, that we thought, well, you know, maybe we've got a chance. And we knew that it was just about finding the right person at the right time. And film is a weird one. It's just, it's all about timing and you can't predict when that timing is going to happen. You just have to stay true to your intention and why it's important to tell why you feel it is. And then that's going to keep you going. And so our path took us down crazy journeys.

1:15:07So like at the start of this, we thought we were going to do it as English language with German accents because 16 years ago, you could not have raised the maintenance. Yeah, you couldn't do it in German language. No way. So we're like, okay, then you start looking at the business side of it and you say to get a film off the ground, you need either a big director. So we went to a lot of big German directors who all turned it down. You know, a lot of German directors were scared of the material. Yeah, like there's not a lot of upside in touching that material. Unless you get it exactly right, which, you know, I believe Ed did.

1:15:40But he was so passionate. He knew his vision right from the get-go, what he wanted to do. And we hadn't found that. And then it was okay, so we try and get a big cast member, right? That's going to fund the film. No, it's not. So we went to Daniel Radcliffe. This was way back at the start, which was kind of bananas. We managed to reach out to him and we got a meeting with him. And we flew overnight because we couldn't afford a hotel. and he was living in New York. We're like, okay, we'll get a cheap flight overnight. We rock up to his apartment thinking, is he gonna like, is this really happening?

1:16:14You know, we chat up on the door and he flipping answers. Harry Potter answers the door. We're like, what is going on? So we rock into his apartment. He's getting us cups of tea. His parents are in the back. Mom, dad, stay back there. We're like, oh my God, we're with Harry Potter. Was this around like his Eccis phase? Yeah, he was massive. Yeah, he was on Broadway then. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And he has a big apartment in New York. And so he was like, I love your guy's script. That's it, I wanna come on board. We're like, oh my God. So my claim to fame is that, you know, I dropped one in Harry Potter's toilet.

1:16:48Yeah. So that's it. There you go. That was it. That was a paracletic. That scene in the biopic stays in. That's right, exactly. But you guys didn't have any money, right? Like what was - Nothing, nothing. So, but then you realize you have to learn the business. Like, how do you put a film together? How does that work? And we quickly realized that Daniel Radcliffe was not going to get it off the ground because outside of Harry Potter, it wasn't worth anything. And then, of course, his agency didn't want him attached to something that wasn't getting made, so then he came off it. So you're learning all of this about the business as you go on, and you're trying to sort of strategize and how do we knock on those doors?

1:17:27How do we get those attachments? How do we this, how do we that? We got different producers on board, one of which went to jail. I mean, you couldn't. Right, but you haven't really paid your dues in Hollywood trying to get a movie made unless one of your producers goes to jail at some point. Totally. Right? So embezzlement or something like that. It was Belgium, Belgium embezzlement. Right, from some insurance fund or something. Totally, totally, you're like, oh man. And then we've just had some crazy meetings, you know, like I remember going in to meet this producer and I kid you not when I say his office, he had a stage and he had a throne on a stage.

1:18:03And that was like, I'm not joking. That was like his office. Are you gonna name names? I can't even remember who it was. It was that long ago. And then we've met other directors, you know, where you're walking in. I remember this one director and I remember walking in and his assistant went, and this is, you know, and pronounced the name and I'm thinking, what? Anyway, so that bit, you know, You have to kind of see each experiences something in and of itself. And even if the film doesn't get made, we never would have had those kind of opportunities. You're learning as you go about how things actually work.

1:18:40And you were doing that without representation. You didn't have an agency opening any of those doors for you. And the ticking clock, much like the armistice in the background of All Quiet, you have the ticking clock of the option. You've got to come up with this money every 12 to 18 months. And the way to do that is to win world championships. So while you're pursuing this movie, you're like training six, seven hours a day and then showing up and crushing it. There's two stories that I want you to tell from this period. The first is when you went to the, I think it was, which one was it? Was it the 2000?

1:19:25No, it was the 2011 XTERRA in Maui. World Championships, my first world title. Yeah, so there's that story and then obviously there's the Costa Rica story, but let's start with Maui. Start with Maui. I think the reason that that's so important is that it changed the course of my life. Because when you've been in pursuit of something like winning a world title or being the best in the world or an Olympic title, whatever that is, and you're faced with incredible odds and then you overcome that because you just keep going, it changes everything about what you have to do if you want to succeed at something.

1:20:00So at that specific race, I came out of the water in pole position. I was the fittest I'd ever been. I was like, oh my God, today's it. Today is the day. And you don't get that feeling often where all the stars are aligning. And I got on my bike and I rolled out of transition and I had a flat tire. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? I've never had a flat tire in a race before. Like what? And so everyone's passing me. And I just remember this moment thinking I can either throw in the towel and just like succumb, woes me, never meant to be. Or I can say, you know what? I'm going to fight because I'm fit.

1:20:41I'm in a beautiful place. like, why not? Why not? Like, you know, at least I'll get a workout and then I can have some, you know, frigging ice cream and not feel guilty about it. So, um, I, I fix a puncture and I bike and I just keep going and I make it up into fourth position on the bike, but I am 10 minutes down on the leader with only, sorry, six minutes down. So you changed the flat. You didn't ride on a flat. So I changed the flat. So it was, what happened was the tire pressure was so low on a, sometimes on mountain biking in order to get traction, you have low tire pressure. So it was too low.

1:21:15So it burped the tire. So I then had to get my canister and pop it so that it popped. Not that I knew that at the time, but after a few stop and goes and figuring it out, I realized that what it was, that's what it was. I heard a pop and I'm, oh my God, I'm on my way. So I cycle, I just keep on going, I'm feeling great. And I'm like, well, fuck it. And I cycle up to fourth, but I think it was six and a half minutes down on the leader with a 10K to go. And I'm like, well, effort and attitude, just give it everything you have. And I climb my way back up to second. I remember being at the top of the hill on the specific course and I saw a helicopter come over.

1:21:55I'm like, holy shit, that means the leader's really close. So I'm barreling down this hill and I see the leader, Melanie McQuaid, in front of me and she's stumbling around. I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to pass her. so I pass her with literally I think I don't know it was maybe a K to go half a mile to go something like that and she ends up collapsing and not finishing the race and I just remember like Simon's face he's like wigging out he's so happy and I just thought I could have given up I could have not bothered I could have thrown in the towel and that really just it changed everything for me to just keep going So, three pieces of information you left out, which is first of all, that prize money allowed you to extend the option.

1:22:46Yes. 10 ,000 bucks I think it was. Secondly, you ran 43.54, which was the same as the men's winner, Michael Weiss, who is like elite, like that guy is a beast, right? So you ran just as fast as the men's winner. And for context, your run split was 10 minutes faster than Lance Armstrong who was competing in that race. Yeah, screw it, Lance. How's about them apples, buddy? I'll take you on. That's unbelievable. And that was the first, was that the first XTERRA World Championship that you'd competed in? No, it was not. It wasn't. I competed in others. That was maybe my third. That was the first that you won.

1:23:32That was the first that I'd won. Yeah, okay. Yep, yep. You go on to win a bunch of races. You won in 2012 also, but then you have this, when does the Lyme disease situation kick in? So it was really interesting that was like 2013. So 2012 when I won for the second time, it's interesting because any athlete will tell you the first time is elation, but it's quickly followed by the doubt in Thomas's where I don't deserve this, I'm not really that good. You know, it was all questionable. Melanie McQuaid had collapsed. Can I do it again? And I went through a period of just like, oh my God, I'm not that good.

1:24:17And I quickly brought on my husband and we figured out how do I, you know, get better? How do I make this happen again? So 2012, I think - Starts with not getting a flat. It starts with not. But it starts with your essence of like why you're doing it, like the beauty of it, like what's important to you. And I remember that summer, the thing that got me ready for 2012 was my training buddies. I had the best partners in the world and we had this wonderful friendship and I had so much joy in my training. And that took me to this world, the second world title, and that was the best race of my life.

1:24:51No doubt about it. That was that, to this day, every single piece of it was perfect. Every piece. And my dad was there watching. and he was not there in 2011. Did he give it up for you? He did. I'm glad you got it from him. He got so pissed that night. It was amazing. And anytime my dad gets pissed, as in drunk, you know, I always ask him for money because he'll give me everything. So I'm like, all right, pops, give me the money for the option. No, but yeah, so that was 2012. And then after that, I think, I just kind of dug myself a hole. You know, when you've found this moment where you've achieved what you deem to be real greatness.

1:25:31And then you are searching for it again. It takes you down some dark paths of that obsessive personality. So I lost a lot of weight. I just like really compromised my immune system. And then all of these symptoms started to arise. And that's when I realized I had chronic Lyme disease. And that set me on this path that was awful. And yeah, so I went from being the best in the world and getting the fastest runtime split to, oh, now you're in bed and you can't get out and you're in chronic pain. So the leveling of that, I think that's where now dealing with failure, I couldn't give a toss because having gone from the highest highs to lowest lows, you have so much gratitude for being able to do anything that you don't care whether it's good or it's bad.

1:26:24You just want to be doing it. How long were you bedridden? Like what was that discovery and recovery process like? Years, really. Wow. It was years. I never really got over it. Because with Lyme disease, it's really curious because your body cannot fight it off because there's many other things going on. So you have to figure out all of the different things going on in your system that has created this perfect storm for you not to be able to recover from it. And that's when I embarked on my, what we call my investigative health hustle, which is I'm going to stop at nothing to figure out what's going on.

1:27:06So I spoke to every doctor, every therapist, went all over the world. And at that time, I was also suffering from chronic pain, chronic pelvic pain, which meant I couldn't sit down. I could only lie down. I couldn't drive anywhere. I had to have someone drive me to places. All the while I'm still trying to compete. I'm still trying to speak to sponsors to get money. So you're trying to grit and train your way through it. Oh, it's awful. And was the pelvic pain related to the Lyme disease or that was a separate thing? No, it was kind of related. It was understanding kind of what my body was dealing with.

1:27:43It was exposed to a lot of toxicity. It was exposed to mold toxicity and some heavy metals and various other things. I had a lot of gut problems. I'd had a lot of antibiotics, a lot of sugars, a lot of... I mean, my body was a mess, right? It was just a mess. And that all led to this kind of chronic inflammation. And certainly if you experience mold toxicity, which is relatively unknown, pelvic pain is one of the major symptoms because the pulling of the toxicity, the mycotoxins from the mold, They actually pool in your urethra and you're kind of around your urine and around that bowl, that pelvic bowl where all those nerve ends are.

1:28:27So I had both biomechanical issues that were creating like high hamstring tendinopathy, but then at the same time, this chronic neural inflammation in this area caused by mold. I mean, how would I ever have known any of that? Yeah, I'm wondering how you even came to that diagnosis with pelvic pain being the primary symptomology. I mean, mold would not be on the list of the top 100 causal. Well, it took me eight and a half years to get to that point. So it was eight and a half years of chronic pain. And at some points, so debilitating, I'd go to bed at night crying and wake up wishing that it would be okay in the morning.

1:29:13so you know and once I got to the point and I've only been out of pain for about a year and a half wow which is wild and in fact my last outing I went I have this butt pad everyone knows me it's really funny I have this like it's totally minging as in like grotty foamy thing that I have to sit on anytime I go anywhere and it was this running joke are you going to take it to the Oscars, you know, you're gonna be in a red carpet. Who's gonna be holding your butt pads? And I think it was two weeks ago, I went out on a day of meetings in London and I went without my butt pad and I sat on hard chairs and I sat in the tube and there was no issues.

1:29:59So it's just amazing that like you deal with all this adversity and the gratitude that comes out of the simple things like sitting on a chair. And the healing, the recovery from the mold and the Lyme, what did that entail? Like once it was diagnosed and you were on a certain protocol towards getting better, what did that mean? It's ongoing because once you've experienced such toxicity and so many issues in your body, it's like peeling back layers of the onion to figure out how to get over it. and it's very expensive. I mean, if you work with any what we call functional medicine doctors, root cause medicine doctors, you know, you're paying out of pocket largely and it's thousands.

1:30:47I mean, just to get tested is thousands, let alone the treatment. And then, okay, so you're exposed to mold. Well, most houses have mold in them, you know, and then you have a genetic component, which means that if you have this specific gene, you're more susceptible to being impacted by it. So not everyone is. So how do you explain that to people? You know, then you're renting an apartment that has mold somewhere. How do you test for it? It's like 10 ,000 bucks. Then, okay, you find you've got mold in your house. How do you remediate it? That's, I don't know, 25 grand. So do you know what I mean?

1:31:22It's like all of these, it's a very frustrating process, but at least the knowledge and the awareness of what's going on helps you deal with the symptomology that you're going through. Right, right, right. wow, I didn't realize it was that severe, acute and prolonged. Oh yeah. And it can cause extreme, if you're exposed to it chronically, and again, it's like this perfect storm, there's other stuff going on in your system. Then, you know, various symptoms, anxiety, panic attacks, depression can be huge, huge factors. So, and Simon being the scientist that he is, he was quite, he didn't really believe in it, I guess I would say.

1:32:06And then we realized that we were both working beside a unit in our old house that once we ripped it out, it had black mold everywhere. And he was suffering from, you know, pretty extreme anxiety that had gotten worse and worse and worse. So there's, it's just, gosh, I mean, we could go right. You could go down that whole. That's like a whole podcast in and of itself. Like you spent hours on that. I'm sure when you move now, the first thing you're doing is like doing the mold analysis before you eat. It's like, oh, for God's sake. Wow. So during this period, so the onset of this is 2013 around.

1:32:44Yeah, so while this is going on, you're like three years into this. Right. Still trying to train, still trying to keep the option alive, the dream alive, trying to function in the world. and in was it 2015 or 2016, you go to Costa Rica to compete in this race. Broke, desperate for the win because the option laps is on the horizon and there's just no negotiation here. Like you need that money. Totally. And I just come off the back of a lot of illness. So I was coming back to racing. So I had that fire in the belly to wanna do well. You were on an upswing health wise. I was on an upswing and I'm like, I'm gonna go out to this race, I'm gonna win it.

1:33:31I'm feeling great. Training has for the first time in a long time gone really well. And the day before the races and off-road triathlon, you wreck the course, right? You check out where the little descends, where the rocks, all that good stuff. So I go out on a pre-ride like the day before and I fall off my bike and I'm like, wow, that really hurt. Come to find out, I've broken my shoulder. did not know that then all I knew is I could not lift up my arm and I was like I was devastated you know lots of tears lots of oh my god not only are we gonna lose the option because this is our only way to pay it and like through this whole health journey you finally have a glimpse of feeling okay enough to race and I'm just like what so I quickly went out on the bike and I I kind of propped up my hand and I'm like, well, you know what?

1:34:25I can hold on with my right and I can probably steer. The course isn't very technical. Maybe I can ride my bike. Running, that was actually okay because of where I broke my shoulder. The up and down motion was actually okay. Then I was like, went down to the water's edge with Simon. I'm like, can I swim? Could not lift up my arm. I mean, not one iota. I couldn't put a bobble on, couldn't get my bra on. I was like - A bobble, what's a bobble? A bobble. A bobble for your, you know, like a wee... Oh, like a hair tie? Hair tie, it's a bobble. Got it, I don't know. Cardridge, Germany. Cut through the Scottish.

1:35:00Cut through the Scottish, you know. So I go down the water's edge and Simon looks at me and he's like, well, you know, you're really good at the one arm drill. I'm like, you know, he's right because I spent so much time when I was younger trying to figure out how to swim that we do a bunch of drills. I was really good at one arm drill. So I go in the water and I'm like, well, I can kind of get, I said, maybe. And I thought, well, what's the worst that can happen? You start the race, you go out 50 meters and you come back, big deal, I might as well start, right? It's that whole, let's take one step and see what happens.

1:35:30So I get into the water and it's an ocean swim. So I get through the waves with one arm and I'm kicking like nobody's business. And I'm exhausted. Which is not good because it doesn't create a lot of propulsion and it's really tiring on your legs and you've got to ride and run. Oh, totally. And I'm like, you know, and everyone's overtaking me. And of course, everyone knows me as a fricking former world champion. So Simon's on the beach. She's taking a video and someone looks at him and goes, God, he sees me off the back and he says, hey, they'll let anyone, anyone in the pro field these days, won't they?

1:36:07And Simon's chuckling to himself knowing it's me. So I come out the water. I make it through, you know, 1 ,500 meters with one arm. So I'm pooped. and I get on a bike and just going through transition with one arm's difficult. I can't imagine. I get on a bike and I have to carry my bike down any of the descents, but I start making ground and I make my way up to second position on a bike. And then of course my running is my strongest and I run three to first. I like how you just brush through the fact that you rode through the entire field all the way up into second with a broken shoulder after doing the swim leg with one arm.

1:36:43It's true. I think I was 12 minutes down. You made up 12 minutes on the bike. I made up 12 minutes. Close, I think it was about, I made up like, I don't know, 10 minutes or nine minutes on the bike. So, and then got on the run and ran through to the win and it was like - And that was it. Oh yeah. So you win this race with a broken shoulder after swimming with one arm. Yep. And get the prize money, renew the option. This is the story that Hollywood loves. This is a story that got recycled in every profile piece about you around the Oscars. This is like the key moment in the hero's journey, biopic of Leslie.

1:37:25Oh, totally. And it was, and it's funny because when you're in it, you don't really think about it. You just have built a career on just trying to take the next step forward. And don't forget, I'd come from such devastation of being at the pinnacle of something that I truly love. I mean, I'm a runner at heart. I love it to then not being able to do it and just dreaming about doing it of any shape or form for years and then getting on a start line. I'm like, I'm not going to lay a broken shoulder. Weigh me down. You know, I'm going to make this happen, whatever it takes. So, you know, I think when you've come from that, you know, you just, you find a way.

1:38:10It's an incredible story. And you're 10 years in to the journey of trying to get this movie made. Right. How do you, how did you remain undaunted and unrelenting? Was there a moment where you thought, are we really gonna renew this option again? Like, let's move on. Like clearly the town does not want this project. There's plenty of ideas out there we can work on that might not involve us spending a bunch of money on an old book that doesn't exactly lend itself to cinema in the way that maybe we misjudged. Do you know what? You're so driven by a need to tell a story. And I felt like this angle that we had was so unique.

1:38:54I knew we just had to find the right person. And Hollywood is littered with stories of this took us 10 years, this took us eight years, this took us 12 years, whatever. and I thought to myself, this is our chance. We can't give up on a chance. But then also reconciling that in your head and saying, is this about the journey or is this about the destination? And so it was opening doors and it was giving us something because we were still able to get meetings with people based on the fact that we had the option to the rights of all quiet. People are intrigued. Like these no-name writers have that option.

1:39:31Like what the fuck? So we just saw this almost like a business venture. This is giving us opportunity, just like you invest in your business, we're investing like that. So don't think so much about whether this film is gonna get made or not. You're seeing it as an opportunity to develop the connections and open doors that you couldn't have had opened beforehand. And that was a mindset. It's all about mindset. It's like kind of growth mindset, right? And then it happened. Right. Right. So what was the inflection point that led to it getting made? Was it meeting Berger? It was. It was all very circuitous and weird and complicated.

1:40:14So we had another producer that was helping us at the time. And through various connections of his, like five times removed, Edward Berger got the script along with his producing partner, Malta Greiner. and they reached out to us and we were kind of tied up with other people at the time. So it all got very complicated. But they reached out and said, we love your script. Would you guys consider doing this in German? And of course we always had, but it would never have been possible before. And Ed's vision, along with that idea, we were like, oh my God. So we had to quickly get out of the arrangement that we were in, which was very expensive and very stressful.

1:40:54and then we embarked on a journey with these guys. And it was when something feels so right, you realize how wrong everything felt beforehand. And when we got involved with Ed and Malta, it was like everything happened. You know, they say the overnight success, but it truly is like that. When everything is right in Hollywood, like when people aren't returning your calls, it's because it's not right. Right. If they want it, they'll call you then. So that's kind of how it was with us. Everything came together at the right time. And then everything happened really quickly. Yep. What's interesting about that is despite all of that, like you see the movie, it's exquisite.

1:41:35I mean, I haven't even like showered you with praise for like how much I love the movie. Like it's just, it's gorgeous. It's haunting, it stays with you. It's so eloquently, beautifully rendered. Every detail is so thoughtfully and intentionally, you know, positioned to, you know, evoke the emotional response that you're trying to get out of the audience. Like I just, and you know what, I didn't watch it right away. Cause I was like, this move, you know, like it kind of popped out of nowhere. It wasn't in the theaters and suddenly it's on Netflix. And, you know, no one was really talking about it until suddenly everyone was talking about it.

1:42:13And even then it took a while for me to say, all right, I'm gonna take the time to watch it. And then you see it and you're like, oh my God, it's nothing like what I, because we have this relationship with this property in this book, we project onto it some baggage about when we read it in high school or whatever it is. But it's so artfully made down to the finest detail. And yet on every level, it does defy all of those hardened laws of Hollywood. You need an A-list star, you need a A-list director, You gotta come in with the agency and a big package, and you're gonna go to the studios, and there's gonna be the theatrical release and the marketing campaign.

1:42:58You have none of that, none of it. I mean, Berger's direction is unbelievable, but he had some like a few credits and he'd done some television, but he's not Ridley Scott. And then you find this kid, Felix, the whole movie rests on this kid's ability to carry it. Totally. If that kid doesn't work, the movie doesn't work. Somehow you find this unknown person who's never started a movie before and just shoulders that film with such pathos with this face that tells you everything you need. Yeah, it's like, I'm like, how did all of these things come together in this way to make this work. And it's like on Netflix in a foreign language.

1:43:50I know, I know. I think it all starts with intention and it all starts with passion. I think that both our script and then Ed's clear, clear passion about how he wanted to tell the story and why he felt it was important. And every single frame of that film is imbued with that. and it's such an important piece to German culture and what it represents. The sense of shame that Germans feel about any kind of war, the fact that they cannot view war in any kind of heroic sense is so unique and so compelling that that elevated the material above anything that you see out there. And so, you know, I really think that it takes, it takes, and the interesting thing is Ed, as a director, as soon as we got this email from him, I reached out to a few people that I know in the industry and said, you know, how is he viewed in the industry?

1:44:58Because we were very much on the outside. We don't really know, because there's like this whole inner circle of like who's talking about who that if you're on the outside, you have no fucking idea. So I reached out to a few folk that kind of knew and they were like, oh my God, he is like mega hot property right now. He is the next best thing. So he was like on the come. He was like, he was about to pop even though he didn't have this body of work behind him. So he's about to pop. Then you have this amazing producer Malta who's done a lot of very quality work. And then we presented it. And then you have like, you know, it's European Netflix, which is operates very differently.

1:45:35We had Sasha Bueller, head of European Netflix, championing the project. So you have all of these individuals that combined make this epic quality. And then it's all about authenticity. It's all about bringing on the right people at every single level to make sure that this is going to be the the best film you've ever seen. And the attention to detail, I mean, when they cast Felix, he went through rounds of additions. Even although Edward knew he was right from the get-go, he pushed him, I don't know. He was like, there was a relationship, somebody knew him and he was in a theater group or something like that.

1:46:19It was our producer's wife that works in theater. and he was quite a well-known theater actor or at least making noises. And in some of the auditions, for example, they dressed them all in his uniform to see how he would walk, to see how he would embody this character. And every step of the way, he was pushed and he was pushed and he came up and he came up. And then Edward was like, yep, he is our guy because he's going to be on set hours and hours and hours a day and pushed emotionally and physically to limit. I mean, his uniform when he'd come off a day of shooting was a hundred pounds. Yeah, I read that somewhere.

1:46:59Yeah, you weighed the uniforms. These wool, like just absorbing all the water. Absorbed the water and it was cold, it was muddy. And then it was an incredibly emotional shoot. I mean, think some of those scenes and what it means to people and how impactful they are. You know, I mean, gosh. so anyways I just think it what it what it tells me as well is so many young people have watched this movie and responded to it that people are ready for content that matters that has that kind of depth but it all starts with story and unfortunately that can often get lost and we're We're in the midst of a writer's strike right now and we're not given the value of, you know, of being that foundational creator.

1:47:53It's the starting point of everything and we're overlooked and marginalized and lumped together. We can get this person in that part, you know, and it becomes this mishmash and then you end up with all this crap content. Yeah, it's very strange. We're in this transition phase with how movies and television get made and how they get distributed. The syndication model, the broadcast television model, the ancillary revenue stream model, all of those are gone. And we have these streaming behemoths that do these buyouts where they pay all the money upfront for the talent. There's no ancillary revenue streams coming later.

1:48:38and that's given them the opportunity to shortchange talent, mostly the writers. On top of that, there is an utter lack of transparency around how many people are seeing these properties, how much money they're making, such that you can't help but think they're making more money than they want you to know. Because if you knew there'd be more than and the writers just going on strike right now. Totally. Is that a fair assessment of the landscape? It's only fair assessment. And there's people put in these positions, it becomes just another business metric, right? And again, the heart of storytelling, what it means and its impact has become so diluted and pushed away.

1:49:28It's become so separated from the business aspect. I understand it's a business, that money needs to be made. films are expensive to make. So, but at the same time, you've got people in these positions that have no idea about story, about script, you know, and they're giving you feedback or they're green lighting things based upon what, based upon, you know, how other things have done well in the past or what that package is. But, you know, nobody's read the script. Can you make it more like this? Oh God, if I'm told, oh, can we have another, can we have a female John Wick, please? It's like, oh my God, brutal.

1:50:08When you're making the movie, I assume you're on set for - Well, this is the whole other story. This is a travesty. So this happened during COVID. So we were not allowed to be on set. And after 16 years of getting this project on board, we're in LA, it's shot in Prague and we were having to watch it from afar. Oh my God. And that was the hardest thing ever. It was brutal. And it's like, it's not that like we wanted, it wasn't about input, it wasn't about control. It was about the beauty of seeing these collaborators come together. Why couldn't they figure out a way to get you there? That's a whole other conversation.

1:50:50Yeah, there's some political strings attached to that one. I got you. That's a shame. I just assumed you were there. Well, let's put it like this. I think ultimately there's a lot of people in this industry that really don't give a shit about other people, that what they've done to make something happen, there's no empathy for a lot of people out there. And folks don't wanna help other people make their way up the ladder, unfortunately. Yeah, it's a zero sum game perception. Which of course we know it's not. The more you help, the more you get back. Yeah, of course. It's a people business, right?

1:51:29And people like to work with the people that they like and people remember when people were helpful to them. It's so insane. I don't get it, I don't get it. Well, I do get it. It's wrapped in ego, but... Fear and greed and a lack mentality. There's only so many projects and only so many people who can get credit, et cetera. The big question I have for you is... Who designed my Oscars dress? No, we're gonna get to the Oscars stuff. I'm working my, I've got lots of Oscars questions, but here's the biggie. You wrote the screenplay, obviously you, Ian and there's three of you, but you option the property and you renewed that option for 16 years and made sure that you held onto the rights to get that thing made.

1:52:19The role of producer, the title of producer can be defined in many ways. In my book, that entitles you to a producer credit. So although you did not receive the Oscar for best adapted screenplay, you won the BAFTA. We're gonna get into your reaction to all of that. I'm curious why you're not accredited producer on the film because I think that you deserve an Oscar for best picture. So we are executive producers on the project. So, which is something we always fought. well, we fought to have a full producing credit and to be involved in that capacity. They only let how many for Oscar purposes, four or something?

1:53:07No, for Oscars, I think it's four, but there can be many producers in the project. Yeah, but only four can be like Oscar contending, we get to hold the trophy guys. Yeah, so, and even that is kind of contentious. It depends on how much input you've had in the project itself during the production. And of course we weren't allowed on the production. Right. So therefore we couldn't play a role. I think you had a little input. Yeah. But you know, it's one of these things that you learn. Unfortunately, we had a good lawyer, but we were kind of caught between the rock and a hard place in terms of who we had involved in the project and who we had to buy out or buy off to get actually on the road to making it.

1:53:50And so we had to give up that full producing credit in order to actually get it made. Yeah, that becomes a bargaining chip in getting the movie made. Yeah, and we naively thought that we could fight for after the fact, but of course - Once you give up that terrain, you don't, right. Have you seen the movie that you wrote? They're fighting over, you know, once you give up a little bit, you're not getting it back. You're not getting it back. And then especially if the person doesn't want you to get it back, they're gonna do everything to ensure that you can't stake the claim. Leslie, do you know how lucky you are?

1:54:20Like that we're gonna be making this movie with you. You should be grateful. Oh my God. Do you know how many times he said that to us? Yeah. And of course, you're new to it, right? You've been on, this is your last chance, and you don't have any more money to renew an option. So you are incredibly grateful. So you're balancing between, oh my God, I'm grateful that this thing got made. And then I'm frustrated that we're not recognized for what we did to get it off the ground. So it was, you know, that was a bittersweet pill to swallow and that followed us around the awards circuit. And it was emotional.

1:54:58It was hard. We were very much the odd ones out until we were embraced. But, you know, all you can hold on to is your why. Your why is, what is this? why am I doing this? I love to tell stories. And if this allows me to tell more, then I'll suck it up. You know, it's wank at the time, but you suck it up. So I just kept coming back to that. And then also as well, I'm never going to do that to other people moving forward. I'm not going to do that. You know, I'm going to take care of the people that I work with and make sure they're credited for what they did. I'm going to nurture people and mentor them and help them any way I can given the circumstance and that was not our experience and you know i went out of my way to be kind to um be uh collaborative to be supportive uh to stand back uh to support and then it was kind of thrown in our faces um and not a lot of people know that and it's difficult to dig into, but it's been a hell of a learning curve.

1:56:12Yeah, and it doesn't, it would be, you know, there's an argument that it is uncouth to complain given, you know, the trajectory of your success to grouse about something like that. Well, I think it's as long as people know our input and again, you know, our input was big, but at the same time, you know, what they did in production, what Ed did as a director, what all these other heads of department, it's a collaborative process. It's amazing. We feel so bloody lucky. Like, yeah, my question was gonna be like, when you were on set watching it unfold, did you have the sense that this was something special?

1:56:55But having been deprived of that, I suppose you were, maybe you were zooming in or whatever and getting glimpses of it, but probably not until you saw a first cut of the movie, did you get a sense of whether this is even gonna be good, it's probably fair to say the finished product exceeds what maybe you even imagined it could be. 100%. But was there a moment where you're like, oh my God, like this is like even better than I expected or I can't wait for people to see this or were you thinking is any English speaking person gonna watch a German language movie? Like what was going on in your mind around expectations?

1:57:31Do you know when we saw some of the first shots in some of the pictures and every frame looked like a piece of art, I was like, wow, this is, I mean, at least we're going to get something for cinematography. But when we saw the first cut of the film and I watched it, you know, you get a link from Netflix. You're allowed to watch it within 24 hours. And I watched it with Simon and my mother and father-in-law in England at Christmas, whenever it was. And I just sat there the whole way through. You know, it was so bizarre. It was so surreal having gone on this wild journey, then not being able to be on set, then watching your film and it's yours, but it's not yours.

1:58:12And it's beautiful and it's gorgeous. It was like a very bizarre experience. And I would say I'd take that emotion of, of, of total joy and total devastation, mesh it together. And that's how it's been for the last, you know, I don't know, eight months. like, you know, on so many different levels. You're so accomplished and you've been so successful. So, you know, the idea of another, you know, great height being achieved probably feels more in your grasp than it might to somebody else. But I'm wondering whether you allowed yourself to start thinking about things like those external validations, like when does the Oscar possibility enter your mind or was that not even part of it?

1:59:03It's just like, I'm proud of the movie. I can't wait for people to see it. I mean, I think it always did. You always have a secret hope that it's gonna go that far, but you can't anticipate it. So you can't, that's what's weird. You can't spend too much time putting energy into that thing that you can't control. Exactly. And you really truly can. And that was the biggest thing that came out of the Oscars. I mean, you can control to a point if you've got a great company and a lot of money behind you to create an awards campaign that really gets a word out. But it is so political and it's so complex that people have no idea.

1:59:35Yeah, I think people don't understand that it is the campaign to Oscar is not dissimilar from a presidential campaign. The amount of money and social engagement that goes into that is insane. And you want a studio who's like, we understand that and we have a team that knows how to do that. Here's all the money. And Leslie, here's your calendar. You're gonna be going to lunches and cocktail parties every single day for the next 45 days. Totally. And you can imagine me. I was like, I'll do everything. I'm like, I'm gonna do it as a athlete. I'll train from two to 5 a.m. and I will be at that lunch in Beverly Hills.

2:00:13But the funny thing is, is he didn't wanna involve us, Ian and myself in the campaign to begin with at all. So it was very much pitched. Why was that? A German authentic film. because you're not German. Because we're not German. We were a dot. We were a scab on the project. That's so interesting because you have the most compelling human interest story of anyone involved. Well, they didn't know it because nobody knew who we were because we were pushed out. So again, it depends on, you know, who's creating the narrative and where you sit within that. And if you are pushed to the side and you don't fight for your place at the table, then nobody's going to know.

2:00:53So it took me, a good friend of mine, Andrew Kossoff, who owns a big company here, I cycle with him. He paid for me because we couldn't afford it. He paid for me to have some PR of my own. And that's when the first couple of stories we managed to get in the big publications about who I was. The what did the Wall Street Journal piece come out of that? But it all escalated. So it started with a Hollywood reporter piece that Simon and I wrote. And that was the Costa Rica story. Right. And that just, you know, and then all of a sudden it was like every, and then all of a sudden Netflix realized, oh, oh, this is your story.

2:01:36Oh, and you're a woman. And oh, this could be beneficial. As soon as it became politically opportunistic for them. That was it. They loved me. So, you know, yeah. But you know, I mean, but they didn't know. Because the people in control of the film didn't tell them. So, and the people in control of the film didn't know because they didn't ask, because they didn't care. So, do you know what I mean? It's like, we've got what we want. So, see you later, guys. And it's just a commercial reality of how that stuff goes down. It can be, it doesn't need to be. I've met plenty of people that have amazing experiences and I've had amazing experiences, you know, but at the end of the day, again, like, you know, four Oscars, seven BAFTAs, like come on now.

2:02:23Like, yeah. So 14 BAFTA nominations, seven wins, including your screenplay, you know, and that was at a moment where it was kind of shocking because it was a sleeper. So I would suspect that your camp was, you know, more than delighted at that result. It certainly wasn't a given. And that created momentum going into the Oscars. Big time. Nine nominations, four wins. And if you watched the show, there was a certain kind of energy that felt like it was building because you guys had a lot of success early and it was like, oh, they're gonna take it all. Cause once you get some of those other awards, you think, well, they're just knocking all the pins down from here.

2:03:08Oh yeah, and we truly thought that. And I think that the whole BAFTA, it's so fascinating, the politics of it, but I think we got such support at the BAFTAs and in the UK because it's a very European story. Sure. It's a European production. And, you know, I'm gonna be contentious here and say that they focused on the craft of the film. It wasn't about the wokeness of the project, not taking anything away from the other projects, but again it becomes a political campaign when it comes to the academy you know is diversity represented is you know the female voice represented all of these issues then become this massive thing whereas i'd say in the uk all of that is almost kind of pushed aside and it's like well which is the best fucking film you know and you know which has the best craft or why and And so we had a sense we do well in the BAFTAs because in the campaigning up to it, like I am not joking, I'd walk in a room and people find out what, you know, what I was a part of.

2:04:15They would get down on their knees. They'd be like, oh my God, you know, you're like, wow, this is amazing. So that was cool. But the BAFTAs itself was the best night ever, ever, ever, ever. It was so fun. I managed to get a ticket from my mom and she was like, do you know what I mean? Like she's in her 70s now. My sister took her out. She got her fancy dress. Netflix flew her down, fancy hotel, the whole bit, paparazzi outside. I have my own dress designer, hair and makeup. My old man comes down with my step mom. And it's like, it's just, and then of course we went everything. Do you know what I mean?

2:04:59It was like, what? And in that moment, the surreal aspect of that experience to reflect upon the 16 years and the toil and the doubt and the broken shoulder and the Lyme disease and the, you name it, that you endured to persistently shepherd this project to fruition. I mean, it's unbelievable. It's awe inspiring and incredibly, it's just incredibly inspirational. It's like on the stage that night was pure joy. I mean, pure joy. And afterwards, we went out and we parted until 4 a.m. Anybody that knows me knows like I'm eight o 'clock at night. I'm in my bed. Do you know what I mean? So 4 a.m. I was so hyper.

2:05:51And one of the best things was the next night after the BAFTAs, we took our parents out for a meal, like a fancy meal, put the BAFTA in the middle. and to share it with our families, like this massive journey and this success, like I really relished in it because I feel like so much of my athletic career, I've been about the future and you know, what's next, what's next, you know, oh my God, I can't live up to this. I really felt like during that time I was in the moment and it was like dreams coming true. Yeah, it's cool. It was, it was, it was so, I'm not joking when I say like massive stars are coming up to you.

2:06:33Cause I had this book. Yeah, I know you, I wanna hear about like, I know you met like Tom Cruise, like throw some at me. What? So you have this, you have the Academy luncheon for nominees and it's more relaxed, people are chitty chatting. And of course Tom Cruise is nominated and you're going around and you're speaking to, you know, I'd met Steven Spielberg, which was amazing. A bunch of other people and Tom's at this do and I see him and normally he's got a ton of people around and there's a little window and I go up to him and I went, hi Tom, I'm Leslie Patterson with all quiet. He said, I know who you are.

2:07:08I know your story. He said, how many hours a day do you train? I'm like, oh my God, this is unbelievable. You're gonna have a training conversation with Tom. I swear to God, like I'm desperate to meet him again to like really dig into what he does and how he recovers in that, you know, but it was just, that was very weird. So it's just, and what you realize, I mean, they're all for the most part, I mean, they're all just people and the people at the top generally are super nice and they love what they do. They're into their craft. They're that top 1%, right? What is the shared DNA sensibility ethos between elite athletes and these elite creatives that you were able to bump elbows with through that experience?

2:07:54Absolutely the same. It's not about the outcome. It's about the process. So they love what they do. They love their craft every single minute of it. They're obsessed with being the best that they can be in every single moment to, and that's where their joy comes, not in the end result. The end result is like the icing on the cake or that that's not even, you know, so you all sort of, you bond over the silliness of it, of the end result in a way. And yeah, you really relate to each other because of the passion of why you're doing what you're doing. There is something just completely inane and absurd about pitting creative expressions against each other in a competition.

2:08:40It makes no sense. And yet for some reason, it captures the imagination of the world who wants to see who's gonna win these things. But the whole thing is just, I mean, it doesn't make any sense. There's no rhyme or reason or objective way to say, this movie's better than that movie, when they're just apples and oranges and both beautiful expressions saying something interesting and important and resonant in their own right. Totally. And yet you are an athlete and you are competitive. You don't win world championships without wanting that trophy. So when you're at the Oscars and it's your category and they're listing out the nominees and you're sitting there with your speech in your hands.

2:09:26Yep. What is happening? It was brutal. I have to say it was the worst night of my life. It felt like everyone's like, oh my God, the Oscars, this and that. But I was so nervous. First of all, it goes on forever, right? Like people aren't even in their seats most of the time. And you're like, is this ever gonna end? It is so exhausting. Cause I started getting ready at what? I don't know, 9 AM. You've got dress designers, you're getting hair and makeup, you're this, you're that, then you're driven there, then you're hanging around. Hours of waiting and waiting and waiting and kind of being uncomfortable, kind of being nervous.

2:10:00Then you're in the seat and then you can't really absorb. This is your first Oscars. You're wondering, are you ever going to get there again? There's a lot of kind of like internal devastation about what's occurred anyway, about your lack of involvement. and then you're waiting there and I've just spent the last three months talking about the narrative of how dreams come true and I can achieve anything and I'm an I amazing and the whole of Scotland is behind you winning and I'm sitting there, I'm holding Simon's hand, I'm holding Ian's hand and I'm like waiting for the name thinking, oh, this is going to happen.

2:10:40I've willed everything into existence. So of course this is going to happen. and it doesn't. And I am not joking when I say, I looked at Simon and went, no. I'm like, thank God they didn't have a camera on me. They probably did. They just chose not to show it. Thank God. And it was so bizarre because in sport you have time to get used to the devastation because normally it's a longer race. You know whether you're having a good one or not. It's generally not a sprint finish. so you're kind of at peace with it I was not at peace with this at all and you know I I know Sarah Pauly who won and she's amazing and she's gorgeous and such a lovely person so you're definitely happy for that and then you're happy for the four Oscars that you win you win best international where you're not invited on the stage which is another thing and again it's this weird dichotomy of like, you should be happy, but you're devastated.

2:11:43You should be happy, but you're devastated. And then pure exhaustion of what you've just been through and everyone telling you, you should be enjoying yourself. This is the Oscars. Oh my God. You know, so needless to say, it was like the parties afterwards, I just wasn't interested in. And which is so crap to say, but like, I find it really hard. I just find it really hard. I appreciate the honesty, you know, the political answer that you always get is, oh, you know, I was just happy to be nominated or whatever. The reaction shots on the faces of the people that don't win who are like, and you're like, no, I'm pissed.

2:12:24I should have won. I thought I should, I thought I deserved to win. I didn't win. I'm mad. How am I gonna get back there? Like, that's the killer that wins five world championships coming out, you know, this like unicorn unlikely animal who's found her way into this creative world where that sensibility isn't like, doesn't quite jive with how everybody else kind of functions as political animals to, you know, make their way. And I thought, I read that and I was like, good for you. You were just like calling it like you felt it and saw it. Yeah. Do you know what's funny? Because like, I think that maybe that's why I'll be successful is because I'm, I'm, I'm candidly honest, but in a nice way, if it comes from a place of, this is my belief, I'm going to tell you what I really think.

2:13:12I'm in the nicest way possible. Uh, you know, and I think that's where true greatness comes. Um, yeah, you know, but, but man, but when I reflect on that night and, and all of the other things. We did have some good moments in there. You know, I remember after it happening, I ran to the bathroom and here's the funny thing about the Oscars, right? So, you know, you're sat there and you have these commercial breaks, right? And they're like, I don't know, two and a half minutes, three and a half minutes, everyone's different. And they don't tell you when your category is coming up, you know, roughly, but not exactly.

2:13:48And they close the fucking doors if you don't make it back from the loon time. So you can't get back in the auditorium. So you're sprinting in your heels and dress to get to the toilet so that you can get to Lou, do a piss, come back and get in in case you miss your category. So I needed the bathroom after we'd lost and I run down and I'm devastated. I come back up and I know a bunch more of our categories are coming and I miss the doors. I don't make it back in time. But on the way, Kate Blanchett's there. She gives me a big hug. And I'm like, okay, it's not that bad really. All right, okay. The queen.

2:14:31And I end up hanging outside with Phoebe Waller-Bridge and she is as funny as you can possibly imagine. So it's like you have all of these little vignettes of moments that are so fun and wild and amongst all of this like just tough shit. Weirdness, yeah. You know, I feel like I'm recovered from it now, but that next morning I cried all day Monday. and it wasn't, it wasn't, and again, it wasn't so much even about the fact that it was about the fact that we lost, but it was more about, I felt like this opportunity could launch our career and it has already, but it could really launch it and that that had been lost and compared to everyone else involved in the production, their careers are already there and they're already going.

2:15:20Ours are not. This is our first step. And because we'd been marginalized so much in the lead up to it, I felt like, oh my God, we've lost our opportunity. So that's where I felt devastated. But then you kind of kick yourself up the backside and you say, okay, I'm just gonna have to use it. I've fought back from worse. Like let's use what we've got here. It's still amazing. And you create your own opportunities. Well, I think people are learning more and more about the story. I mean, you did win the BAFTA. You got nominated for an Oscar. The doors are opening. I do see a bright future. I mean, of course you would have liked it to have gone a different way in a number of different aspects of that whole journey.

2:16:03But I don't know, man, I'm pretty confident you're gonna figure it out. I mean, if you could be that persistent, focused, diligent, disciplined, hardworking to create what you created in this project, which let's face it, it's your first screenplay. I think that the skies are looking blue ahead. Oh, they are. Yeah, so I know you have a lot of projects now. Is there one that can you talk about what you're working on that's coming up next? Yeah, so we're shooting a film in Scotland in October, which is really exciting. It's a psychological thriller that we've written and produced, we're producing.

2:16:43And we've got Karen Gillan, we think who is coming on board to start on it. So that's mega cool. We have a big project in Africa. That's why we were in London seeing the king of Ashanti. And that's a true story. We have an amazing project set in the travellers community in Ireland. That's like a father-daughter story, a little bit like The Fighter. And then we have a bunch of others, you know. For us, it's about jumping into these crazy, wild, exciting worlds and finding a commonality, finding a thematic essence that digs into something in our society that we wanna talk about, it means something to us.

2:17:27Beautiful. And how are you gonna keep the training up or what is the perspective on racing and all of that? Like how does that fit in on a relevance level and kind of a performance level for you? Racing means something totally different to me now. It's about community. So I love to race now to go and meet my friends and to have an experience, not for the outcome. So I really actually don't mind that much about the results, which is both good and bad. So it's going to be destination races. It's going to be fitting them in in between films when I have the time, when I have the inclination, training on set, having fun with that, you know?

2:18:13Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I mean, I think that's appropriate with everything else that you have going on right now. It is using it. Kind of lunacy for it to be different than that, you know, honestly, right? Oh, totally. And I think it's just using it as inspiration, you know, training and racing is inspiration for my creative world now rather than an end point. Right, right. I'm interested in, you know, when I reflect back on the traits and the behaviors that kind of led you to this place, obviously there's talent. And like I keep saying, the grit, the perseverance, the discipline, the hard work, the mindset, the positivity, optimism, all of that.

2:18:53I'm curious, given that you've said so many of these things are deeply ingrained in just who you are and the way you've always been, how much of this do you think is teachable? Because you and Simon have written this book, The Brave Athlete, you talk about these three different minds. For somebody who is looking to level up their approach to the things that they care about? Like where can someone begin to cultivate more of these characteristics that could lead them in a better direction? It's incredibly teachable. I mean, as you well know, folks like Huberman talking about it, but the neuroplasticity of the mind, right?

2:19:36You can change the wiring in your brain. And I just view it like a muscle that needs working out. and you can change the composition of that. One of the most defining moments for me in my sport was when Simon taught me about the anterior cingulate cortex that sits behind the eyes and it monitors emotional and physical pain. And it actually, as it experiences adversity, it grows and gets denser. I mean, that's kind of a rudimentary sense of it. So for me, it was like, okay, so if I do harder things, it's going to get bigger. so then I can cope with more harder things. Oh, that makes sense. So then I need harder things to do.

2:20:17So, you know, I think that's the essence of understanding how the brain works. And that's what we get into in our book. We give a brain mental model so that people can understand what's going on in our heads, that we're not crazy. You know, this is actually, you know, these are the reasons why we have thoughts and feelings that we don't want. And then certainly in our book, we get into different categories like identity, confidence, body image issues, creating an alter ego, like all these different things. And we give tools, right? Almost like homework to work in it. Cause we work on our bodies, but we don't work on our brain.

2:20:54Right. So. Yeah. And you know, in the athletic context, I mean, I love that, it's fantastic. You know, at the highest level, you have parity of work ethic And for the most part talent, like these people are all incredibly talented. There's only so many hours in the day, they're all maximizing them, at least in terms of their physical training. Under appreciated is the mental game. And perhaps that's because it's less understood or at least the principles or tools or strategies for training the mind are still something we're like learning about, right? And haven't been canonized to the extent that like, we know how to train for a marathon.

2:21:38Like it's kind of like, you know, there's no big secrets there, but the mind still is this mystery box. And to the extent that through neuroscience and what your husband does and people like Uberman are working on helping us to better understand that and provide us with tools where it's like, oh, if you do this, this happens in the same way you have a physical, muscular, skeletal response to a training stress that we can do this with our minds. That's really exciting and seems to open up a giant horizon in terms of performance breakthroughs, not just in athleticism, but in literally anything. Well, it's always been seen as this ethereal thing, this separation of mind and body.

2:22:23And now we know through neuroscience that there's a physiological component to that and we can have an influence on that. So I think it's just a paradigm shift, isn't it? And that takes time. And it can be uncomfortable. it can be frustrating but certainly what we've tried to do is define this a bit more and to you know you know give tools give strategies things that are really like you can taste them you can feel them you can touch them and we came about that because you know Simon's background people like Huberman but then for Simon to peek behind the curtain of a crazy pro athlete and be like, fucking hell, okay, I was taught all this in the textbooks, but now I've seen what actually happens.

2:23:09Okay. You mean through like imaging? Well, I just mean like living with a professional athlete. Like what do they go through? What are the things that impact them? You know, and how can we help with that? So often I would come back from training and be like, okay, sorry, I tried this and I tried that from a mental perspective. And he'd be like, oh, well, that makes sense because the science says this and that. and maybe if you try this. And so we had this wonderful intersection of this kind of creativity of me figuring out how I work and operate and then the science assignment coming together and having something actually tangible.

2:23:44Yeah, the experiential with the academic. Yep. Yeah, super interesting. All right, we got to wrap this up, but I wanna leave, I wanna kind of end this with some practical tools or advice for somebody who is interested in learning more about how performance works and how it might benefit their life if they were to learn a little bit more about the brain or are trying to find a way to get more grit in their life or test themselves in new and interesting ways, but are completely unfamiliar with how they might embark upon that. So read our book, The Brave Athlete. See how I just, I was like, here's, help me help you, Leslie.

2:24:29Here's your plug, I'm serving it up to you. See, so read our book and then, you know, do something that totally scares you every day. I mean, truly, honestly. And then get to know yourself, you know, point the finger back, who am I? How do I operate? What works? What doesn't? What I like, what don't I like? What's my heart of darkness? Create your own film world, get to know your character. That would be my advice. Yeah, create your own hero's journey. become the star of your own movie. See, you've got it. There you go. Beautiful, that was really fun, thank you. It was, thank you so much for having me on.

2:25:08It's such an amazing story. Like I, hopefully, you know, this will help get your narrative out there a little bit more. I find it to just be captivating. And the idea that you're just at the beginning of all of this is like really exciting. Well, you know, hopefully we can make a film together one of these days, Reg. That would be cool. in the meantime, everybody, if you haven't seen All Quiet on the Western Front, I don't know what you're doing, make a point of checking that out right away. And if people wanna connect with you besides the book, where's the best place for them to find you? You can reach out to us.

2:25:42IMDB has my information up there. Also braveheartcoach.com has more information. Are you still coaching? You're not still coaching anymore. So a little bit because you know what? It's like, I love my athletes and my peeps. So you have athletes under your belt right now? So yeah, on the way to the Oscars, I was talking to an athlete about wetsuits and watches. And yeah. Oh my God. I can't believe you're still doing that. I know, I don't know how much longer. It's so funny. I went to your website and I was like, this thing hasn't been updated since like 2016. Like. I know, I'm sorry. You go to the Oscars, you have this website, your personal website up there.

2:26:20And it's like, you're like, we're working on this movie that we hope gets made one day. Hey, listen, I need help with my social media. I know you do. Yeah, and your social media is Leslie Does Try. It is. Right? I think you might need to change that a little. I mean, you do do try, that's good. I do try. I know, that's kind of the point. So it's a two-hour. It feels reductive at this phase of your life though. All right, you're gonna help me, right? I'll help you, yeah, for sure. All right, thanks. Awesome, it's so fun, thank you. That's good, oh my God, I'm sweating bullets.

2:26:59That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way. as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

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2:28:21Portraits by Davey Greenberg Graphic and social media assets Courtesy of Daniel Solis As well as Dan Drake Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting And website management And of course our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt And Harry Mathis Appreciate the love, love the support See you back here soon Peace Plants Namaste

2:28:55Thank you.