Against All Hope: Former NBA Star Chris Herren on Addiction, Sobriety & Service

30:21a lot and invested a lot to his own risk. Yeah, yeah. With you. Both of our backs were up against the wall a little bit, right? He was fresh out of Vegas. He was going home to Fresno. I needed to get out of New England, 3 ,000 miles away. I figured, I truly believe, and you hear it all the time in the rooms, that me moving from Massachusetts to California was the solution. Right, the geographic. Yeah. And, you know, obviously it chases you. Right. But in Unguarded, you have, you talk about, you get there and you're like, what am I doing here? I don't belong here. You're calling your... Yeah, yeah.

31:02I'm at Jack in the Box. Yeah. You're like, there's the payphone, you know, where I was telling her, I can't, I'm not gonna make it here, you know? Well, she was the person that I could be truthful with, right? She knew that boy. You know, not many people got to know me in seventh grade. Yeah, you met your wife in seventh grade. Yeah. So she was one of the few people in my life that I could go to the jack-in-the-box, pick up the phone and say, I'm crumbling. I'm crumbling in Fresno, California. I've never heard of it. It's 120 degrees. I need to get out of here. But the truth is I had nowhere to go, right?

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35:13You make a good go of it for a while there. It seems like it was a relatively healthy environment with Jerry's sort of mentorship and belief in you and a certain sort of team cohesion there. And you had a good run for a minute. I think it started off rocky. I was in a Black Angus parking lot and surrounded by, you know, the SWAT team. I got into a fight in the bar. It started off rocking, you know? From an athletic standpoint, it was great, right? Like we're playing in front of 13 ,000 people, selling arena, it's live. Fresno was a lot like Fall River in a bigger sense. It was a very blue collar town.

35:56And I think they respected the way I played the game. And I think they respected where I had come from. And I became the long shot, the underdog. So I think they, and I played that way. You know, I played, you know, when people say, Chris, you were talented,

36:17I was emotional. Like that's what drove me, not talent, emotion drove me. Like when I could kick it into another gear, it was all emotion and fear. So that's where I believe I excelled. But part of me on the basketball court in Fresno knew at some point, you're gonna try to tap into this and it's not gonna be there. Yeah, there's that, was it the first game where you come back and you're playing in Boston for Fresno? Oh God. And Boston fans, not exactly forgiving, right? They're booing you. Yeah, yeah. You know, here's this kid, he's back here and you just crush it, right? So when you say, like what you're saying is when the stakes are super high and you could tap into that emotional state and just play out of your mind.

37:09I look at as honestly, humbly, I look at it as lucky. Like I just, I made my first shot, which allowed me to, my esteem, to feel comfortable out there. I was paralyzed with fear walking into that arena. I just got my ass kicked to University of Oregon. Now, mind you, I get kicked out of BC. I sit out a year. I'm trying to get my drug problem under control. I'm going to AA. I'm working with my assistant coach and busted my ass to get back. And I step on University of Oregon's basketball court and they destroy me. They took everything from me that game. and from Eugene, Oregon to Boston, Massachusetts, I contemplated quitting.

38:01Like, I can't do this. I can't embarrass my family. I can't embarrass myself. I'm not a division one basketball player. I'm so far from that McDonald's All-American. Just transfer, go to a division two school and play at that level. So for six hours on a plane, I cried. like I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do this and I didn't sleep you know I'm in the hotel and we're practicing and my family's coming so there was an immense amount of pressure on me and I didn't do well with that you know I I didn't I didn't do I had I had to create it in a sense you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it.

38:49But I'm imagining just this young kid who's just so burdened by expectation and an outside sense of responsibility, like it's life or death for you. Like if I don't play well in this game, then this whole town is gonna turn on me or you know what I mean? And I felt that about me, you know, like it was life or death for me. No wonder you didn't have joy for basketball. How could you? I didn't. I think I, and that's what I was saying. I think I excelled at being incredibly fearful. Like that drove the fire to rip your throat out on a basketball court. Right, but - Not that I could like dribble really good and shoot on, like it was more of that intensity that was living within me that allowed me to thrive.

39:43Sure, but fuel, as a fuel source, fear isn't gonna bode well long-term. And if you're harboring that much fear all the time, it's only, you're ticking time bomb in terms of when you're gonna use again. Again, because you can't walk around with that level of discomfort being an addict without picking up at some point. And I knew it was, I knew that this whole gig was gonna end. I just didn't know when. Like you got to think about it. At 18 years old, I went on this journey to be a professional basketball player. But at 18 years old, I knew at some point I'm going to self-destruct. So every time I walked into a gym, every time I played in a game, I knew at some point it's not going to be the person across from me who beats me.

40:33It's going to be me. Right. And is it going to be tonight? It's a horrible way to live. Meaning they're going to find out. Mm-hmm. They're gonna expose me. And the amount of like energy that you have to output to maintain this double life. So no one really knows what's going on with you is exhausting. So fear, exhaustion, panic, doom, all of that. And you're like 19, 20, 19? I loved it. Like I'd be screaming on ESPN, the cameras. I'd be an absolute maniac out there. after the game, I'd jump up onto the scorer's table and get the fans fired up and they loved it. But there was just something about that 19, 20 year old that as I'm celebrating, I know deep down inside that this is not gonna, it's not gonna be long.

41:26Yeah, it's not gonna last forever. Yeah, and it didn't. You're right about that. Yeah, yeah. You break Jerry's heart a couple of times, and it kind of, you're sort of, it's weird. It's like this X, like on the one hand, your career's continuing to go up. Like you get drafted, you're playing for Denver, then you play for the Celtics. But at the same time, your problem's getting worse and worse and worse, right? So it's this weird confluence. It is weird. And honestly, I can say at that time, if I look back on it, there were times I was the healthiest I've ever been. You know, like at Fresno, walking into a trailer for an AA meeting and, you know, opening up the big book and smoking cigarettes and hugging people.

42:13Like I felt phenomenal, right? So there were periods of time where I had some pretty strong sobriety at 19, 20, 21 years old. And then I went to Denver and, you know, it was well documented that I went to rehab and, you know, Rolling Stone did a big piece and Fox did a reality show. So everybody kind of knew kind of my legend. And I walked into that locker room and the guys in there immediately embraced me and said, you're a second round pick. You know, you're 33rd. You got two years guaranteed. We're gonna make it 10 years. and as men who suffered through substance use with family members in the past we will i will not sit back and watch you suffer so we're going to do everything in our power for you to take advantage of this opportunity and they did antonio mcdice george mcleod chauncey billups popeye jones they knew my history and they were like it's not going to happen here so they they babysat for a season.

43:26And I wasn't perfect by any stretch, right? But I was better. I was much better. And that's why when I came back the following year and I got traded, it broke me. Do you think if you hadn't gotten traded to the Celtics and you stayed in Denver, that ultimately you would have been able to figure it out? You know what I found out in the NBA, to be truthful? my emotion didn't work anymore. Then it was real talent. Then it was real size. You know, that fiery, tough, you know, blue collar kid on the basketball court. Like that wasn't giving me an edge in the NBA. So whether I self-destructed or not, I don't think in hindsight, looking back, I would have had this long, successful NBA career because I was at my limit.

44:24You know, when Shaquille O 'Neal tries to block your shot and you feel like there's a tree over you. It doesn't matter how angry you are. No, yeah, that's not gonna help. But you gotta find some kind of other gear, right? That's a little more sustainable if you're gonna operate at the highest of the elite level. And that gear required discipline. It required sobriety. and I couldn't have it. Yeah. You know, if I was going to make this work, I'm going to get sober and I'm going to lock in and I'm going to show up every day to put the work in. I didn't have that ability. So I knew I was going to lose it.

45:05And that's why I kind of enjoyed going to Europe. You know, I was running away again. You know, I won't fail in front of, I'm gonna head to Europe and fail on my own. Yeah, you're getting paid well. You can do this thing you know how to do, but the stakes are a lot lower and no one in the US is paying attention and you can fuck around and you're so far away from home. It's not gonna make the headlines in the Boston Globe. I'll never forget it. I have a horrible story. I don't even know what's appropriate to be on here. No, tell it. So my wife wanted me to get help, obviously. And there was this pain management clinic in Boston that puts a pellet inside of you, right?

45:56So sadly, I can't even describe it because I went up there and it was$750. And we didn't have$750. So I walk into this office and my wife is sitting there and she's so happy that I'm gonna get this opiate blocker implanted in me that I walk in the back to meet with the doctor and I had a razor blade and gauze pads in my pocket. So I met with him for about 15 minutes and I said, you know something, sir, I'm gonna pass on the pellet. May I use your bathroom? I walked into the bathroom, I sliced my stomach open. I put gauze pads, tape, and I walked out and my wife saw it and she was like, way to go babe yeah and there was no pellet the 750 dollars addicts are crafty man yeah yeah but but but saying that is i i took an immense drug habit you know um intense drug habit to italy with me you know i was and and part of me if i could like those are people that I never made an amends to the Italians, the teams that I played for because they didn't get what they scouted.

47:13I got off that plane and I was taking thousands, 1600 milligrams of oxys a day. That's the athlete that you just acquired. Yeah. You know what I mean? So. Yeah, so opioids, OxyContin enter the picture. when was that? It was shortly before you started with the Celtics. And then that quickly ramps up into a 1600 milligram a day habit of Oxy while you're playing for the Celtics. There's a crazy story where you're warming up for a game and you go out shortly before you're dope sick, you go out to the parking lot to score so that you could just play the game. and you end up having a pretty good game.

48:00Which is like, you had this unreal ability to play high or stay up all night, party your ass off and just be an absolute wreck. And then like four hours later, take the court and crush it, which is - I did so at a younger age, right? Like when I got - That doesn't, that's not gonna - It's not, it wasn't gonna last to me. In high school, right. But 1 ,600 milligrams of Oxycontin a day and I'm sitting in my locker room and I'm like, I'm not feeling good. Like the early withdrawal symptoms are coming on. I'm kind of like, I got a runny nose, I'm sneezing and starting to get a little achy. And I call my drug dealer and I said, listen, I'm playing.

48:38I need you up here before, right? I'll leave him some tickets. I'll meet you after the game. I'll give you a couple of thousand dollars and I'll get what I need, but I need you now. And he punched it and he drove and, and I kept running off the floor. No, and like, think of that moment. Like I'm starting and my family, they're so proud of me. And this is the dream growing up in Massachusetts to play for the Celtics? I guess so, right? I mean, if you think about it, I guess so. I mean, was it really? Apparently, you know, I don't know. I mean, if you really look back at it, was that my dream? Maybe my dream was to like paint and like play music.

49:24you know yeah i just never was exposed to anything else but that but my point is i was um i ran outside the arena with like eight minutes to go and the place was packed and i run i leave the locker room go left another left down the stairs through the player's parking lot and he's waiting for me i pay him he gives him to me i throw him into my I went back to the arena and they introduced me shortly after. And that's normal. Like there's people who will watch this show, you know, and say, oh, that's, I get that. Yeah, of course. And there's people who watch it will say, what a sick bastard, you know?

50:10But. Yeah, and I think a lot of that has to do with not understanding that you need that just to be normal. Without it, there's no way you're gonna be able to play. Yeah, and I hate - It's not about like being in some peak state of being high. Of performance, yeah. Yeah, you're just trying to get to a baseline. You know, I think it's always, it was in the beginning, it was a really hard question to answer. Like, did you ever play high? And every part of me wanted to say no. But the truth is I wouldn't have been able to play unless I was under influence in the world of opiates. You know, like I didn't do cocaine before the game because it was gonna make me perform at a higher level.

50:56I did opiates so I could be normal and perform at a normal level. And that's the chase, right? I think, you know, even as a professional athlete, what you start to fall into, right? I'm strung out on oxys and I would try to like get myself away from it and get in the gym just as whether it's sprints, runs, shots, My body didn't feel right on him. I mean, without him. Without him, yeah. So I knew that I was gonna have to step away from the game of basketball for about six months to kind of rewire my brain and my body to the muscle memory to be able to perform at that level without him. Wow. So I just chased, it was just a constant chase.

51:45So your time at the Celtics ends, you go overseas, you play in all these countries, Poland, Turkey, China, Italy, you bring like a big bag of oxy with you, right? Did you travel internationally with that? No, it's a good story. Did you get it shipped to you or how did you actually? So I brought some to Italy with me, I believe. Yeah, so I brought, it was probably like 300 oxys with me. And I was like, I'm gonna manage this. And then the next country I went to was Turkey. and I was like, there's no way I'm bringing to Turkey, right? Yeah. If you're of a certain age, you saw a certain movie that terrified you.

52:30Oh my God. Yeah. So I'm like, I'll figure it out when I get there. Uh-huh. And I went on that flight without. I fought in my hotel room. My father came with me. He witnessed my withdrawals. You know, I would wake up and the bed would be sideways. Um, that's how active my legs were kicking. And, um, I started really trying to hustle some heroin, you know, some, some, some opiates and, uh, couldn't find any. So for like a month, I'm sick. So I call a guy at home and I said, I just wired you 5 ,000, send me a bunch of oxys. and he sent them. And the plan in a newspaper, you can't feel them, FedEx.

53:24So I get a phone call from my team that says, here's a package down at the local shop, but for some reason they want you to come here to pick it up. Oh man, it's a sting. It's a total sting. Wow, in Istanbul? I went for it. I didn't care about this thing. Like there was$5 ,000 worth of OxyContin in that package. so I go there and as I'm sitting there at the counter signing IDs with some of my like the team personnel outside with me I'm like these guys are about to witness Midnight Express like I'm about to get locked up in Turkey and the guy comes around the corner and he has the package wrapped in tape and I'm like fuck it's it should I run should I say it's not mine I grabbed So I turn around and as I'm walking out of there, I'm like, how come nobody's tackling me?

54:24I get in the backseat of the car, I start opening up. When I get to where they were supposed to be, someone in the airport beat me to it. Got rid of all the pills and wrote me a little note. Basically like, get your shit together, man. This is sad. Like a customs officer who knew who you were. Intervened, intervened. Wow. That was turkey. You can't make that shit up. No, what you can't make up is the fact that I went, you know, like that's - Well, that's, I mean, that's addiction in a nutshell. And I think that's what people who don't have familiarity with this disease don't understand. Like it's gonna drive you to just make insane decisions because nothing else matters.

55:10I'm on that drive over, right? To the FedEx in Turkey. And I'm like, I have a child. I have a wife, but there's a chance I'm gonna feel better. And there's a chance I'm gonna go to prison. And I went for it. That's wild. And for many people, maybe that would have been wake up call enough. Not for this guy though. No. No, it wasn't. And sadly, right? Like I say, I tell these stories with great pain and embarrassment. You know what I mean? Like I never, I don't get any enjoyment or it's painful to say because I know on the other end of this, like my son who's 25 and my daughter who's 22, they're gonna go on and they're gonna watch this interview.

56:00But they know these stories. They do. And they know you and they know the way that you've showed up over the last 14 years. But it doesn't mean they wanna always hear them. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I signed, that's when I did Unguarded, our world changed. That was a big deal. I mean, that documentary is so powerful and unbelievable. I had no idea, honestly. And it didn't even happen by accident. Like John Hawk could tell you most of the footage, the hours they spent with me was me teaching kids how to play basketball in a gym. At the tail end of them wrapping up, filming, I got a couple of speaking events and he followed me and he said like this is this is the documentary right I'm gonna tell it you're gonna tell it in your story um and that's where Engadded came from it was not supposed to be me telling my story and you know I had no idea 15 years ago 14 years ago how powerful that would be.

57:02The mission was for outreach, right? Someone just say, hey, I want help. Like if someone can hear my story and say, I wanna stop my recovery process, that was really my mission at its core. And I would walk into these schools and I would tell this story of my life. And they would message me on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and say, I'm so happy for you. God bless you. Hope you stay sober for your kids. I had 3 ,000 kids in that gym and nobody told me their story. So I'm like, how am I not interacting with the, like, why can't I get to them? So I pivoted and did the first day. And, you know, I don't, I mean, it was said long before I said it, right?

57:54But I think we put way too much energy and effort in the worst day and we forget the first day. You know, everybody wants to say how bad it got, not the reason it began. It makes you look in. Yeah. You know, when you think about it, you're a parent, right? Your son, your daughter, there's parents out there that the kid walks in shit-faced, cockeyed, you know, like drunk. First question is, where'd you get it? How'd you get it? How much did you drink? Like, who'd you do it with? What time did you finish? Never why. Parents don't ask why. Right, it's fear and punishment basically. But the why is everything.

58:42I think so. I think that allows us to kind of open it. Right, right. I'm like, dad, maybe my self-esteem isn't as good as you think it is. Why did you feel like you needed to do that to be with your friends? And the first day idea is this notion of meeting kids where they're at by sharing what it was like for you at the beginning, not necessarily the end, because no high school kid can imagine that that's how their life is gonna turn out, but relating to them why it was that you made those decisions early on and then being curious about their lives. And it's also a very compassionate way of communicating with young people because you're treating them like sentient beings as opposed to judging them or coming at them from this holier than thou, you shouldn't do this.

59:36If you do this, this is gonna happen. Like it just doesn't work. It didn't work for me, right? But I became that. That's why I pivoted. Like, I mean, we started off this interview, Len Bias was the first thing I said. And that wasn't enough. Midnight Express in a Turkish prison wasn't enough. Right, exactly. That's not enough. So what can I do? I can try to reverse, go backwards, get that boy under the bed, on the bed, pull him out of the bed and sit with him and try to make peace with him. Yeah. You know, like I had a therapist who said to me, how great would it be to spend time with that little kid?

1:00:26you know like how great would it feel to like get to know him you've stored him away for so long like we need to bring him out and what would you what would you say to that little chris i'm a i'm a super emotional i'm like a big i'm like a big baby right i would i would cry on his shoulder man i'd hug him like people say that to me all the time what would you say to your younger I don't know if I'd be able to speak. I would just hug and hug and hold and hug. I think that would be my approach with the younger version of me. Yeah, I've seen you do that with other high school kids too. At the end of these talks that you give, these presentations, you embrace these young people and you just hold them and you say, you're not alone.

1:01:19We're huggers. You don't even need to say anything more than that. Yeah. They feel heard, they feel seen, they feel understood. The recovery community is a bunch of huggers. Yeah. Right? And hugs feel good. And to walk up to a kid who's struggling and give them a hug and hold them and tell them that I hear them, that's why I do what I do.

1:01:50I wanna get through the rest of the story. I wanna hear, you know, kind of how it all falls apart and ends up. So you're in Turkey, you're in China. I hear the heroin in China is pretty good. You're spending all your money. I'm smiling. Somehow. Like how sick am I? Somehow like - You said heroin in China is good and I'm smiling. Yes, heroin in China is extremely good. okay um i uh i'll never forget i i walked into a nightclub in china and i was like 45 days sober and i asked this kid if he could get cocaine like i got a little buzz on in a nightclub in china and uh he said i absolutely and he walks out comes back in gives me a little bag and i walk into the bathroom and i do the line of cocaine and i know within 15 seconds that he just sold and he told me heroin.

1:02:46So I was off and running. Was that your first heroin experience? No, no. That was in Italy, trolling the train stations. Yes. Yeah. The guy had it tied to his tooth. So like, think of that, right? He jumps in my car and he starts doing this. And I'm like watching this string come up and he's got a little baggy. Oh, he like swallowed it. And anchored it to his tooth. Oh my God. Wow. And then he, does he shoot you up for the first time? That's how it works. And then I went away from shooting up, because I was completely a sniffer and then sniffing wasn't enough. And then I turned into like, there were people that had to do it for me.

1:03:31And then I went to the, doing it myself. Where does the whole house of cards collapse on top of itself? The house of cards collapse multiple overdoses.

1:03:48The last time I was 32 and I put Chris and Sammy on a school bus and daddy is gonna walk up to the liquor store, get my pints of vodka and I'm gonna stop at a little Cumberland Farms and I steal the ashtrays.

1:04:08The cigarettes that were poked out, were my cigarettes. So I would take a scoop of a bunch of stranger cigarettes. And I would sit at my house and I would drink vodka and I smoked their cigarettes and wait for my kids. And I got a phone call that day. Come down. I'm going to take care of you. I jumped in my car, drove. I had about a pint and a half of vodka in me, knowing I shouldn't. He pulled up on the side of me. He threw it through my window. I shot it. and I immediately knew that I was overdosing. And the only thing I can remember is saying the school bus. I cannot not be there when they get off the bus.

1:04:54Like I cannot have my kids live in that moment of fear like where's my dad? So I started driving and they found me like a mile away crash into a cemetery. And I woke up in the back of an ambulance and I thought, okay, I'm going to the hospital and I'm gonna kill myself. Like I'll go through the motions here, but once I get away from the police, I'm gonna kill myself because I don't wanna do this to my family anymore. I'm 32, Chris is nine, Sammy's seven, Heather's pregnant. Like I'm over this. And basketball career is over. Yeah, basketball is long gone. We had nothing left. food stamps, no lights, some nights no heat in the house.

1:05:41It was hard, like we lived hard. And you're back in Fall River? No, I'm living in Portsmouth, Rhode Island at the time. My mom passed away and she left me and my brother a home and Heather and I were living in that with the kids. Yeah, but not a lot of good friends around anymore. I didn't want friends. Support. You know, a buddy of mine sent me a collage of my mugshots.

1:06:12And like one day they popped up on my phone, like his like the collage of mugshots. And one of my last mugshots, I was so broken. Like I didn't recognize myself, right? at all.

1:06:34But the first thing I thought of was Heather.

1:06:40She stayed with him.

1:06:44Like that, she walked with me. Yeah. You know, whether it's birthday parties, in school, parent meetings, I walked with her and she pulled me along like that. Like that's what I thought of as soon as I saw the mugshot, like my poor wife. This woman that you've been with since seventh grade who stood by you through all of the insanity. And there's two different ways of looking at that. You can look at that and say, what unbelievable fortitude and belief that she held in you and your ability to overcome this. And then on the other hand, you can look at it and say, she was insane to stick around.

1:07:35I'm sure everyone in her life was telling her to run away many times. Always.

1:07:43She wanted that little boy back. You know, she saw me probably at my most innocent phase of my life, sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade. you know like i was just i was still in the driveway uh-huh you know what i mean i wasn't playing in front of 4 000 people there were no lights on me yet um you know she was someone i could talk on the phone all night to and fall asleep on the phone and and talk to my about my parents divorce right so she's been in it since the beginning in the fight you know it was just a different type of fight. Yeah. But addiction, it causes people to get sick. And we were both very sick.

1:08:28As a family, we were both very, very sick. You know, one year in active addiction, like you close your eyes and it's 10 years later. You just wake up. I woke up when I was 32. to like, holy shit. Time flew for all of us. Yeah, but you're emotionally stunted. Oh, big. So it's like when you finally stop. I'm still emotionally stunted. You have the maturity and emotional skills of the age of the person you were when you began. So you're looking at like a 14 year old. Yeah, yeah. Right? So where are we at now? Like 19? Yeah, we're probably around, I would give myself maybe like 20. I'm hoping, I hope in like 26, 27, maybe.

1:09:19Right. I'm getting there. That's pretty good. Yeah, I think so. The prefrontal cortex is almost online. Yeah, yeah. Right. So the mug shots. Yeah. The overdose, the crash into the cemetery. Is this where you end up in treatment courtesy of Chris Mullen? Yeah, so it is. But before that, and I was going, I'm walking out of the hospital and suicide is the plan. Like the handcuffs were taken off. I was discharged and I'm walking out and I said, I'm gonna kill myself. And a nurse intervened in my life. And she intervened by telling me that she saw me play basketball when I was a kid and she was friendly with my mother.

1:10:06And my mom had passed away. So her saying she knew my mom, I broke. and I'm like, I'm thinking about killing myself, but you know my mom hugged me and she brought me back into the hospital and created the opportunity of Chris Mullen to come in. Chris Mullen might've never walked into my world if she didn't walk out of the hospital and chase me down. And she's a nurse. She's like, you don't have to leave the emergency room and run down the street. That's not in her job. Yeah. So her name is Diane Reed.

1:10:47It's because of her. Mully and his wife, Liz, gave me the gift.

1:10:57Mully calls me up and says, I got a buddy named Murph and Murph is gonna help you go to a treatment center. I never met Murph, right? Right, Murph facilitates, navigates the treatment center for me.

1:11:14And I checked into this center called Daytop in Rhinebeck, New York. And Murph talked to him a couple of times on the phone. Thanked him. How you doing? Checking in, yada, yada.

1:11:28So I go home and relapse. Murph stops calling me. they doubled down on my wife Liz Mullen Murph said you know what we're gonna focus on Heather's well-being at this point which I wasn't aware of so fast forward um nine years sober maybe eight years sober and Mully's getting inducted into the hall of fame and Murph is coming I never met the man that put me in treatment. I hadn't met him. So I was so incredibly emotional and ready to hug this dude. And he died that day. He never made it to Springfield, Mass. Wow. I never met the man. I've never hugged or met the man that saved my life. Murph. Yeah.

1:12:19So you just never know. Like be somebody's Murph. Murph didn't need to be out front, you know? Yeah. Or he just did the work for me. He got me there. Yeah, yeah. And that lingering feeling like you don't have closure there because you couldn't give that guy a hug. And also knowing your mom didn't survive to see you get sober. Oh, I've hugged Murph. I've hugged him. I've hugged him extremely close and strong for the last 15 years. You know, like without Murph, I wouldn't be here. My mom, that was her dying wish. She never saw her son sober. I wish. I'm so... I love sitting down with people and saying, like, you have an opportunity for your mom and dad to see you sober.

1:13:13And I lost that. But I believe she sees it. You know, I believe my mom's kind of walked with me in this journey. I think I got the Murphs and moms behind me. Yeah. In that treatment center where you lived for 11 months, you went out for a minute, came back. You basically find God in this tiny little kitchen. What's it called? The pot wash, the pot sink. Yeah, and unguarded, there's a scene where you're standing there. It's this tiny little room with a bunch of sinks, right? And you're like, this is where I was from dawn to dusk every single day. It was my punishment for relapsing, right? So it was behavioral modification.

1:14:07They can't really do it anymore. So it's wearing signs saying I'm a scumbag, announcing yourself as a loser. So really that was kind of the bulk of my punishment for relapsing when Heather gave birth to Drew. I went home, I relapsed, I failed terribly. And I went back completely broken. And they said, get in the pot sink. So from 4.30 in the morning till eight at night, you're gonna wash dishes for this community. And there was 96 of us living in there. And lunch, breakfast, lunch, dinner, guys would walk by and just throw trays and dirty stuff through the window and i had i had hoses sinks and i would spray them down and i would get them in the dishwasher um i had no contact so i couldn't lie to my wife i couldn't promise my wife i couldn't over i couldn't do anything it was just me in the pot sink and that's when things started to turn for me a little bit because because it's kind of like I let go and I let her kind of come in.

1:15:28And the next time I talked to Heather, she was pulling up with a two-month-old infant and my two children walking into Daytop to have a family meeting. Yeah, this surrender, the letting go, the finally putting to bed, any idea that you're there to save your marriage or to be whatever, like letting go of all of that and just focusing on being present with what you're doing. Just be still, right? Allowing whatever is meant to happen, happen. I know that one of the counselors said something to you, like the most compassionate, benevolent thing that you could do is to call your wife and tell her you're never coming home.

1:16:09And it went even a little deeper. He said, play dead for them. like why don't we fake your death car accident and and let them go let your children emotionally you know get rid of you in a sense and um i said that to myself countless nights like i knew that there was a better man out there than me i knew my wife deserved a better man than me I knew my children should have had a better dad than me, provider, but when he said it, it kind of hit me. You know, like I went to bed with that narrative, but him saying that out loud to me was probably extremely reckless therapeutically, but it's one that I'm extremely grateful for.

1:17:03Yeah, I mean, I feel like among the countless relapses and many stabs that you had made into sobriety, nothing was really able to penetrate your core until your wife said, that's it, I'm done. And this guy said, pretend your family's dead, right? And that seemed to seep into you in a way that really changed you. Yeah, really profound moments, right? Like Heather, the nurse, all of a sudden the Mullins with Murph and the counselor. The angels, the Eskimos. Yeah. Yeah. The Sherpers. Yeah. To get me up that - Everybody needs one. To get me up that mountain, absolutely. And anybody can be that person for somebody else.

1:17:50And I'm really proud of that. Like I am so incredibly blessed that in my recovery, I give it to others in a sense. You know, like it's, I'm here because of them. And I've always lived that way. I went to bed at night dreaming of being Chris Mullen. That was my dream. Not Chris Mullen, the shooter. Chris Mullen, that man who picked up the phone and helped me and my family. I dreamt of that. Like that was my, the game of basketball and millions of dollars was no longer my dream. My dream was just to be on the other end of that phone call.

1:18:39And I think I've made that dream come true. You 100 % have. It's one of the principles, our primary purpose is to stay sober and help another alcoholic achieve sobriety. but you have taken that to an entirely new level, my friend, because you are not only of unbelievable service to so many people, you've repaired your life, you've repaired all of your relationships with your family, et cetera. You're this incredibly present dad and your entire life is about giving back this gift that you've been given. And that's rare. I mean, service is part of what it means to be sober in this program, but to really shoulder that responsibility and take it so seriously that you're delivering, I don't know, 200 speeches a year, like you're constantly on the road.

1:19:35You have a self-awareness that your story resonates because of the extraordinary things that you've done with your life. And that gives you a rare opportunity to connect with all kinds of people because they're gonna pay attention to you in a way that they might not to somebody else. And for some of those young kids, it's their first introduction to what a sober man looks like, you know, and what their stories sound like. Heron Project, you know, my foundation, that was the dream. Heron Talks evolved into me traveling and telling my story. And now you have a treatment, you have two treatment centers, right?

1:20:14And I love it. I keep it real raw that I'm not a clinician. I'm the furthest thing from that. I don't pretend to be because I have a foundation around substance use. I have a wellness center. I'm just how they say like a bozo on the bus. But I get a front row seat. I watch families, husbands like me, fathers like me walk in on day one and then to sit in their year celebration and see their children like that's not many people get that opportunity yeah you know not many people that's that's what's so incredibly beautiful about Alcoholics Anonymous is you know the guy used in all time he used to tell me wait till you see the miracle and I honest to God in the beginning I thought he was talking about me I'm like okay one day I'm gonna look in the mirror I'm gonna see the miracle So you believed in that from the get-go?

1:21:17No, not what I believed in is that I was the miracle. Wrong. It was the newcomer that walked in at like 18 months and I witnessed it. Right. I witnessed the lights go on and somebody else. Yeah. That was the miracle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just got a big smile on your face. You're like your whole facial expression just changed. Yeah. And that's how I know it's for real. You know?

1:21:44in all of the talks that you've given, all of the kids that you spent time with, like what have the kids taught you about how to communicate with young people and how to understand them? I mean, there's a lot of parents, I suspect listening to this, who maybe have a kid who's having a hard time. Maybe it's substances, maybe it's not, maybe it's something else, but like just being a teenager, no matter who you are and where you live is fucking hard. And I think a lot of parents, myself included, It's like, how do I understand this young person? How do I connect with them? How do I get on their level?

1:22:17And you're almost like, what do they call it? Like, not a Seuss there. Like you're like a whisperer, like a teen whisperer on some level. I mean, just to me, I look at it as I'm a vehicle, right? Like there's plenty of people that are gonna follow up on my message that can deliver what they need, right? And that's why with Heron Project, years ago, we hired clinicians because I felt irresponsible walking into a school telling my story because there was nothing there on the backend. So now we have the backend. So when I walk into a school and I tell my story, those kids reach out, those kids will be helped.

1:23:02We will deliver for those kids. So I'm just a small part of it. And I like that. I like the fact that I'm in that school for an hour and a half and I'm gonna tell my story and I'm gonna hopefully get, whether it's good or bad, get kids to walk out and tell a little bit of theirs. Did you ever imagine that your life could have so much impact? Like, it's crazy. It's so far beyond anything that you could have ever achieved, even if your wildest dreams as a basketball player that had come true. Like what you're doing now is so much more meaningful and profound. It is, but I, in full transparency, I gotta be careful with it.

1:23:48You know, like I've run hard for the last 14 years. I've run really hard. And getting up and sharing your story and talking to all these kids is not recovery. You can delude yourself into thinking, well, all I do is recovery all day long. No, no, no, not even close. It's actually - It pulls you away from it. It's working at cross purposes. And I'm very open and honest. and I tell people in my center that are currently living there, year 12 to 15 were the toughest years of my life. Why?

1:24:20Because I drifted away. I drifted away from the core. I isolated myself, COVID, all of it. It just pulled me away from where I needed to be. and it was an extremely difficult three years. And when I celebrated 15 years the other day. Congrats, man. Yeah, no doubt. That's right, August 1, right? Yeah, yeah. I shared that, you know, that it was, 15 was a motherfucker to get there. You know, it wasn't easy.

1:25:02and I had hip replacement surgery on July 8th. And after hip replacement, I lost Bill Reynolds and I lost a man bite like he's on my arm. I got it way before he passed away. I lost Chucky Monas. I lost the two men in my life that were willing to tie themselves to me during the storm. Like the two men who would, they would anchor to me in a heartbeat, no matter how high, how low they were with me. And I came out of surgery and I was told that I lost them both two days apart. Oh, wow. And I'm laying in bed and I'm recovering from hip replacement. but I guess you got access to drugs if you want it I guess yeah but I guess the point is is for me where what recovery allowed me to see is God kept me still like hip surgery like I was in I was in his hands I was still I couldn't run I couldn't do anything but face what I was facing.

1:26:23And, you know, it's a perspective, that recovery. Has that allowed you to kind of reinvest in what you know works? Totally. And get back? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I went through that. COVID was rough, man. I really struggled with the Zoom thing. And it's only recently that I've really tapped back into like my core group of guys. COVID was like the exact opposite of what I need. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, let me drag you out way into the woods and try to find your way out of here. And my disease is telling me like, oh, isolation. I can do this. Perfect. I actually like this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:27:05Right? I was living saying, how come they didn't have COVID when I was shooting heroin? You know what I mean? Like I would kill for COVID back then. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man. I think it was not great for the recovery community. I'm not, listen, 12 to 15 was a beast. One through 12, I walked right through it. 12 to 15 was a battle. Yeah. You know? How do you think about the languaging? We, you know, I'd mentioned earlier, like you shy away from saying substance abuse. You like to call it substance use. And you're very conscious about word choice when it comes to how you talk about this condition.

1:27:47I am. I think it's necessary. I think it's kind of softened the stigma that is attached to it. I don't like the word rock bottom.

1:28:01Why refer to probably your saddest moment in life as rock bottom? I just think we have to be better. I think we'd be - Well, I think behind that, at least for me, is the fact that we already hate it. We already hate ourselves. We're already like our own worst critic. So let's attack some tough, yeah, exactly. So when, yeah, on top of that, a headline in the globe that says - What a shame. Yeah, what a shame or whatever. It's like, we're already ashamed of ourselves. So you're just basically putting kerosene on that fire and amplifying the guilt and the shame and the fear and all of that. And a compassionate approach to treatment and recovery requires or could use a little bit more of empathetic languaging around it.

1:28:48I think so. You know, and I try very hard at it. I think it's necessary. I think, you know, again, I don't think they could have the headline, what a shame today. Right. I think if I found myself in a Dunkin' Donuts drive-thru overdosed with a needle, I don't think the newspaper would say, what a shame. And I think that shows you how far we've come in the last decade, two decades around substance use and addiction. You're out talking to professional coaches and athletes. What is the state of the union in terms of kind of recovery awareness in the professional leagues or on the college teams so that there's some kind of safety net or something in place for the kid like you who shows up and has a problem?

1:29:34The safety net is that they're bringing me in. Yeah. But that's not enough. Yeah, there needs to be - Do you know what I mean? I mean, like there's not a lot of alternative support in a sense when it comes to that type of stuff. Like I go to schools, very wealthy, successful, division one football programs. And I'll sit down with a coach who's been there for seven, eight years and he's never sent a kid to treatment. How is that possible? How is that possible? He's got 118 to 22 year old kids and you never sent one kid to treatment. And then there's other coaches. And without even getting into it, because I don't, I would, I'd want permission.

1:30:20He's one of the best coaches to ever coach. And he's all about it. He's all about sending kids away. He's one of the best coaches that will ever step on a football field. And to me, that's his greatest achievement that when his players are struggling, He sends them. Yeah. Yeah. If you were in charge, if you were running the NCAA or you were the commissioner of the NFL or whatever, what kind of programs would you try to create? Would just be a lot of awareness, right? A lot of like, I don't even think there's kids out there that understand what recovery is. You know, I think we show up to a college campus and it's like, here's the weight room, here's the locker room, here's the gym.

1:31:09But what about - There's the frat house and there's the bar. What about my mental health? You know, how about when things get really low for me? Where do I go then? Who's gonna kind of catch me when I'm struggling? We don't do enough of that. You know, I think we're getting better, but I think athletes have been looked at as racehorses. We got four years of this kid in college and we'll see what happens. Right, and to even discuss or bring up the topic of mental health is to kind of imply weakness. And you're not here to be weak, you're here to be strong. So if you're struggling, keep it to yourself and buck up.

1:31:52But most people show up with mental health. Yeah, of course. Like who doesn't? Of course. You know what I mean? What kid isn't gonna show up to college campus and have some type of trauma, something that he's gonna need help with. But we have to wait till rock bottom. Yeah, or something happens, the cops get involved. Yeah, that's when we react. Right. What's the advice that you give to the parent who comes to you and says, my kid's got something going on. I don't know how to communicate with him or her. I don't know how to get this kid to pay attention and understand that he's headed in the wrong direction.

1:32:41I'm sure you get that question a lot. Let a professional step in. Let somebody step, like for instance, my dad, like I hate saying this, but he's drinking himself to death currently. My dad's dying from alcoholism and he lives 10 minutes from me. And it's crazy because obviously he knows what you're doing and what you've done. Of course. And that just speaks to the insanity of the whole thing. I've never, listen, I've sent away through Heron Project and I say this very humbly, like thousands, I think 4 ,000 people in the last 10 years to treatment through Heron Project, through my foundation. I can't help my dad.

1:33:28it's too close it's too raw it's too intense like i have to let others intervene and have a conversation with him um i can't do it as much as as as with everything i've been through the experience i have the the wellness center the foundation I'm still a boy talking to my dad. Yeah. And it's really hard for parents also because you don't wanna be codependent. You wanna keep the channel of communication open, but you don't wanna be a doormat either. Yeah. And it's very confusing. And I think a lot of parents, they're afraid to share their vulnerability. You know, I think there's a lot of parents out there.

1:34:15Like I get, listen, kids email me all the time after I go to their school. And I think there's a lot of parents out there today acting like high school was the best time of their life. And their daughter is completely lost and clueless because she's not living up to that expectation. Like high school is really hard and it has been hard. And I think parents don't wanna share those vulnerable moments. You know, and just an example, like so Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, I played against them. there's a guy named richie mellon who bullied me in sixth grade i can i can tell you everything about richie mellon what he wore to school some days where he waited for me i can't tell you anything about michael jordan but i can tell you about richie mellon uh-huh that says a lot and i think there's there's a lot of parents out there that don't want to share those moments, those losses with their children, which it could be an opportunity to identify.

1:35:18Yeah, I think that kind of vulnerability is always rewarded and appreciated. Me too. There's so much talk about the opioid crisis and now increasing awareness around fentanyl and what's going on there, it's insane. But I don't think there's enough solid conversation around what's going on with marijuana and marijuana psychosis. It's almost as if marijuana has become so mainstream that there's this idea that it's benign at worst. And as somebody who's on the front lines with all of these kids, like what, cause I know what I'm hearing and seeing, like what are you hearing on that side? It's the scariest thing I see in my center as a father, right?

1:36:07Like I have a 22 year old, a 15 year old and a 25 year old. Um, when a kid who shows up at my center with mom and dad holding their suitcases and he's in a psychosis, it is, it, it, it rocks me to my core. It hits me in places that I don't normally get hit. And, uh, I've never seen it. I've been in psychosis, crystal meth and cocaine, but the marijuana psychosis that I've witnessed with kids and young adults is one of the scariest things. You know, marijuana and alcohol have gotten a hall pass. You know, like fentanyl has become the headlines. And the truth is 70 % of this country currently of people in treatment are in treatment for alcohol, but nobody says it.

1:37:07Yeah. And now marijuana, like you said, benign. They framed it, they structured it, they marketed it, they sold it as benign. Right. I mean, in Los Angeles, there's billboards for dispensaries everywhere. And the dispensaries look like Apple stores. So the messaging and the marketing, particularly to young people is this is aspirational, right? This is nothing to be scared of or to have any kind of trepidation about. And I can just tell you as somebody living here who's a parent to young people, it's so unbelievably accessible. Alcohol is far secondary to marijuana with young people. It has now taken over, right?

1:37:49It's like you said, it is alcohol secondary. And it's, I never thought that I would see the impact I've seen around marijuana. I was uneducated on it, right? I almost thought it was benign, right? It gave me the munchies and made me eat, you know, like little paranoia when I was a kid. Today's marijuana is different than - Yeah, it's because it's so potent now, I assume. Yeah, yeah, it's potent. And it just breaks my heart from a, again, and I'm very careful with this, right? Although I've dedicated my life around parts of recovery, I'm also in the room, right? And I'm one of. So I tend to stay away from that little expert seat and stay in the middle of the pack.

1:38:49and it hits me on a level that I haven't been hit on in a long time when I see kids coming into my center with marijuana psychosis. So what does that look like?

1:39:05A little schizophrenia, outbursts, complete isolation and going inward. It comes out in different forms, right? But the scary thing is you don't know when it's gonna clear. You know, like a doctor can't walk up to you and say, your daughter's psychosis will be done in 12 days. You just don't know. We've had young adults come into our center that stayed six to nine months and still struggle. And then we've had young adults that came in and after a month you saw improvement. it just you can't call it yeah what is it uh that you're doing in your in your centers in your treatment facilities your wellness centers um that maybe is a little bit different than what one might find at a typical treatment center when i opened it six years ago i said i'm going to offer as much as i can Right, so I didn't go to a center like mine.

1:40:16There was kind of the narrative, like you gotta go to a place that's hard in order to get it, you know, and I didn't wanna live there. So very holistic, nutrition, sleep, yoga, guided meditation, breath work, personal trainer. You get all of that at my center. Right, like all, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's not just cigarettes, you know, sitting around a circle. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I couldn't live with myself. You know what I mean? Like I couldn't be that guy. You can make a lot more money being that guy in the business. Like if I just threw a bunch of big books and throw out cigarettes and said, come back here in an hour, it'd be a lot different.

1:41:00But people find peace in so many other places. And again, like why don't people track sleep? in early recovery, right? Like let's kind of gauge when you're gonna be at your best the next day. You know, like maybe you only slept four hours. Maybe that's not the best time to go sit down with your life coach, your therapist. Why don't you take a couple of hours, get some rest and we'll revisit this later. You know what I mean? Like we can be much more dialed in. Yeah. You know? I think there's so much room for improvement. Oh gosh. In this space. I mean, I was lucky enough to go to a great treatment center and I was there for a hundred days and saved my life.

1:41:42And I just, I can't say enough good things about it, but I know there's a lot of bullshit in this industry. It's heartwarming to sit across from somebody who's doing it right. And it's thinking about how to really serve because there's a lot of, I don't even wanna call them treatment centers. Like, sober living houses, et cetera. They're like hedge fund guys, real estate plays, renting mansions. That's what it is. And they can rent out those bedrooms for a multiple on whatever the mortgage is. And they're just churning cash and has nothing to do with helping people get better. And that's someone else's story, right?

1:42:22Like for me, I go so far into it that I track obviously the length of stay, male or female, average age. I track, I have data on which life coach in my center is best with young adults, women, men, under 30, over 30. So if someone comes into my center and she's 45 years old and she's a mom, I'm putting her in a specific room with a woman who's like 42 % with women her age. Right. Like I'm identifying that before. You know, you have a small window of time with this. You know, it's like 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. You don't have a lot of time. They're going through detox. They're going through withdrawal.

1:43:12They're not sleeping at night. They're struggling with their nutrition. They don't have enough energy. So I wanted to kind of come in from every angle I possibly could at my center. And at the end of the day, I'm very proud of it. but it's also the community that you create, right? Like that's what kind of keeps you sober. Yeah, of course, of course. Do you have any read on what distinguishes the person who makes it from the person who can't? Because this is the baffling question of all time, right? Like I've been in rooms with people thinking that guy's never gonna make it. And that person becomes like just a pillar of sobriety and vice versa.

1:44:03I'll tell you this, time matters. Like success in long-term sobriety, the length of stay within your center is complete. It can't be denied. The amount of people who celebrated one year, two year, three year, four year, five years at my center that stayed 30 days or less is minimal. Right. The ones who stayed 90 days or more, I mean, we have a whole squad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can remember. I've never understood the 28-day, 30-day thing. I just don't think that you can really make a change in that. When I was in treatment at 30 days, I was barely awake. Who's the asshole that came up with it? I don't know.

1:44:44I don't know where that came from. Five-day detox, 28-day program, 90-day outpatient program. Like who came up with this? You know, like there's people who were detoxing for a month and a half. and you're only giving them five days on your health insurance. Like there's people that come to my center and 40 days into it, they're still struggling, you know, but they're not considered medically in detox at that time. And the truth is at my center, we meet the real person on like day 25. Like seriously, like no bullshit. I got four days. I'm like, I know three weeks of you, but we got to throw that out.

1:45:21Now I know who you really are. Let's start over, you know, and introduce yourself. That's when people start trusting, three weeks, three and a half weeks in, they start feeling a little better about themselves and they trust and they're gonna start being open and transparent and vulnerable. And that's where the work begins. Right, that's where it begins. Yes, but 28 days, they're out four days later. Right, meanwhile, we need a lot of reformation in terms of how insurance works with this access to legitimate treatment, inpatient care, all of these things need to be modernized and updated to get with what's actually happening.

1:46:01I mean, I'm proud of it. Yeah, you should be. I'm super proud of it. And I'm a man in recovery and who spent a lot of his life in the last 15 years of my life around recovery. And it's my greatest accomplishment, Heron Wellness, Heron Project, Heron Talks. I'm extremely proud the way we have all carried ourselves, meaning the runners in Heron Project, the students who I spoke in front of, and the people who trusted me at Heron Wellness. Like that's fucking big time. Like when a mom and dad, like I see a mom and dad coming in from Colorado and I'm like, they're opening up their trunk and they're grabbing suitcases and they're coming to me.

1:46:50Yeah. Like you just flew four hours to drop your daughter off at my place? Yeah. You're the guy on the pay phone in front of Jack in the Box. That's fucking big time, man. That's big time. Yeah. You know, and I never lost sight of that. I never lost sight of what a complete honor that I've been given by servicing. Right, but I see somebody who relishes and embraces that responsibility, which is a huge responsibility in comparison to the responsibility when you were young, which was ego driven of like acquitting yourself on a basketball court because you lived in a town that, you know, wanted you to do that.

1:47:33I mean, these are totally different things. That one, I mean, obviously you were young and you didn't have tools, et cetera, but that all that did was create fear. And now you have this responsibility that's much greater and graver. where literally people are putting their lives in your hands. Wild. And you're like fired up. Yeah, fucking right. Yeah. Well, I'm like, I can't paint the picture or tell it any better. Like there's a mom and a dad in the parking lot pulling out a suitcase to come live at my place. Like what a fucking honor, man. Like what a responsibility, what a duty, you know? And I'm extremely proud of that.

1:48:12Like we've created something really special there. And we hope people stay long-term. They become part of the community. And we do everything. I do everything in my power to service them while they're there. How does this work as a parent? You have three kids and none of them drink or use, right? Nope. And never have, which is wild. Yeah. Yeah. How did you accomplish that? I don't know. I think it's their accomplishment. you know that's their it's their story um you know interesting is that although they've never drank or used i see some of my behavior in them right and my but that should make you even more impressed yeah no son you know what i mean yeah but there's parts of them especially christopher and samantha they were nine and seven they saw nine and seven years of a horrible side of me, you know, very reactionary and aggressive and constantly in flight, pushing everybody away.

1:49:25And that comes out in them once in a while. And I was in the kitchen like a year ago and my little guy reacted to something and I was like, fuck. There it is. That's me. And he sat down and I walked up to him And I put my forehead on his forehead and I said, sorry. And then I realized that's the first time I've said sorry to Christopher that way. I'm coming up on 15 years sober at the time. And I haven't made an amends like that. We cried like for 30 minutes. My wife, who is a crier, like she just sat back in the kitchen and watched us and was like, what the hell is going on right now? All that emotion guttural came out of us.

1:50:22But I said, sorry. And it was, I think what he needed and what I needed, which is pretty fucking cool. Yeah, so honesty, open communication, vulnerability, owning up to your mistakes as a parent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's superpowers, really. Right?

1:50:49They've been able to witness for themselves what recovery has done. For my life, for their life, for our family, they've had a front row seat. And it scares me because they have not done drugs or gotten drunk.

1:51:12because I feel like, I hope I didn't scare him away from it. You know? Like, and I say that, like, I hope it was attraction, not promotion. Right. I hope they say, wow, dad, sober. Like, that's dope. Like, that's fucking cool. But in honesty, it's probably a little of both. Totally, let's hope. There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. And, you know, if at some point down the line, they dabble with it or whatever, the longer they wait, the better they, you know, the better chance they are of being, you know, like not having that kind of like addictive response because their brains are more developed.

1:51:52We're back to the brain. Yeah, 25, 26 years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you're kind of back to the X. Like you're at the same emotional age right now. So you guys should just be like a house on fire. Yeah, no shit. Oh man. And there's something so, you had said earlier, like I don't, like, you still struggle with some regret and some guilt around your behavior and the graveness with which you take sobriety. But there is something about levity in the rooms that I think is beautiful. And it's just incredible to sit and witness somebody get up and tell their story and just own every aspect of it, every embarrassing sort of shame inducing corner of what they experienced and doing it in service to other people so that we feel less alone.

1:52:52And I think that takes a lot of courage and a lot of vulnerability. And when I started this podcast, I mean, I've been so impacted by that, that I wanted to bring that sensibility to this for everyday people, because I believe storytelling is such a powerful connector. And I think we learn through stories. Like you can say, don't do this, do this, and here are the reasons or whatever. But when you're on the receiving end of an incredible story well told, that will take up residence in you and linger and remain with you and influence you in ways that you may not even imagine. And I think you're very gifted at that.

1:53:34and I know that, you know, kind of in more recent years, you're like, I'm getting sick of telling my story or whatever, bored of myself or whatever. But I think that you have to remember, like there's a lot of people out there who haven't heard it yet. Totally. You know, and it is so powerful. Yeah, and I walked in here today and I said, you know, like I said, how incredibly blessed is he to have the people come in and just open up to you? You know, like you said, take up residency. Like it's amazing. the people that you've met just doing this and the people that I've connected with in the past 15 years.

1:54:10My story

1:54:15will always be hard. Like if I'm comfortable telling it, get me the fuck out of the room. Like if I'm that guy, then like people ask me, am I nervous? I'm nervous 24 seven, to be honest with you. I'm on the edge of my seat right now. I'm speaking tomorrow and I'll be pacing before I walk out in front of a small crowd, right? If I'm not nervous, like get me, take care of me because I'm not as healthy as I'm presenting to be. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I would have thought you would have had more peace with it because you share it so much, you know? Not yet. Yeah, it's still haunting you quite a bit.

1:54:57It is in a good way though, right? Like I think, and again, 15 years, like it's the echoes, right? Like I'm telling it and I'm worried about my children, you know, and the impact it has on them. Yeah. It was very, like, it was very hard in the beginning. Like I would walk into a high school and speak and my son was in high school. I mean, the amount of little hate, little messages he gotten on Instagram because his daddy, the drug addict was at this school. Like it was painful. You know, we had some major moments as a family, like, is it worth it for us? You know, hurt people, hurt people. Right.

1:55:35You know, and they went at my children for my story. I didn't know that. Yeah, so there's been a lot of sacrifice on both ends. Yeah, I would imagine it's a little different now because when you started speaking, you only had a couple of years of sobriety at that point, right? Like you hit that hard early. Most of my presentations are the first day. That's what pretty primarily, right? There's probably 220 a year and the majority is for first day. I probably tell my story 20 times a year where it used to be the opposite. Yeah. You know, but again, at a certain point, I started feeling too scripted.

1:56:17You got to start checking yourself. Yeah, that's not good. No. Like in my two fucking, in my two scripted. And then you're like, did it happen that way? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just bullshit. It's weird. I've had that experience, yeah. It's not a great feeling. And that makes you not wanna share your story or to really deconstruct the whole thing. Because you're like, I've said it so many times, is that what happened? Or is it because I keep saying that that I've convinced myself that that's the way that thing happened? And you say it so many times, it's tough to connect to. Like you keep going to it And you got to latch onto it, right?

1:56:54So then you get into self-preservation and it's like, stay away from that because you're exhausted. You know, like now you've gone across the boundary of you're exhausting yourself. You're hurting yourself therapeutically by saying this stuff so much. So you try to kind of get some separation in it. And then it's, I mean, it's tough to manage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's beautiful. I mean, I can't imagine doing that much public speaking. I can only do it a couple of times a year. That's it. Well, we should round this out, but I wanna end it with a word about, a word towards the person who's out there who's still suffering.

1:57:41Maybe somebody is listening to this, they're confronting their own behavior for the first time. Maybe they're snapping out of their denial. Maybe they're wondering whether they have a problem or not and maybe need to look at it. What is the message you wanna leave people with before we end this thing?

1:58:02Again, you just, you gave me a snapshot of about 15 different people. Sorry, I tend to do that. 15 different people. I was like, I'm gonna ask this one question and then I complicated. No, no. I think this, the freedom, you know, the freedom to look within, the freedom to take a chance on yourself to find a different version of you.

1:58:28Again, recovery is the greatest accomplishment of my life. It has nothing to do with the Boston Celtics. If you walk in my house, honest to God, you will not you'll walk through my home and you will not see one thing about basketball i do not have one uniform one picture one ring one article in my home so anybody who walks into my home doesn't say like oh there's a basketball player who used to live here but you'll go to my sink and there'll be my 15 year chip sitting there on the on the on the counter you know you'll go to the coffee stand and they'll see you know something with recovery you'll know that before you'll know basketball and i'm just proud of it right i'm i'm super proud of it and never in a million years did i think on june 4th 2008 when i was walking out of that hospital life is gonna get good life is gonna get real good and life got good there's always hope totally Yeah, you did the work, man.

1:59:33You know, I love it. Thank you. You're a gift, dude. It's super inspiring to talk to you. I love hearing your story, but also really appreciate the humility that you bring to the whole experience. Thank you. And at times discomfort, sharing some of that stuff. You know, I could sense that, but I think it's really powerful. And you're a beacon of hope for so many people. and there's a lot of people suffering out there right now. So we need more guys like you. I'm blessed to be a beacon, right? You are. You are. And you wear it well. You look good, man. Thank you, brother. At your service, if there's anything I can do to help you.

2:00:14Awesome. Same. Yeah, man. I'd love to stay in touch too. Love you. Awesome. Cheers. Thank you. Peace. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

2:01:06Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

2:01:44Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:02:26Thank you.