Andy Ramage on the Benefits of An Alcohol-Free Lifestyle

23:42I just pretended I was drinking. I did that a lot in the early days. So there was one brand of alcohol-free drink in a certain bar. So I would often meet clients. You always try to go to that one. And I'd get my special drinks made for me. So for a good while, for the first, I'd say, three or four months, no one really knew that I wasn't drinking because I made it appear as though I was. I actually sat with a client once opposite him on a table pretending to drink wine. So I put it to my lips, put it back down, and put it to my lips, put it back down. They'd keep filling up his glass and not my own.

24:11And I think I got away with it to this day. And then the courage built. The more like loaded someone gets, the less they're paying attention to whatever you're doing. Like, yeah. And you realize like no one actually cares and they're paying a lot less attention than you think they are. Yeah, exactly. You go into it thinking it's going to be this big thing and it turns out not to really be a thing at all. Yeah. And then as the courage built, then I would order my sparkling water or my non-alcoholic beer. And what I found really quickly was something fascinating for me. For example, let's just say I took out 10 clients and I was the first to order.

24:44And by the way, I was like leading the charge in the drinking days. So of course, if it was my option to order and I'd been drinking, I'd have ordered an alcoholic drink and the rest of the table would follow. We're such herge creatures. And then I put myself back in that environment. And of course, now I'm leading the charge again, only I don't drink. And I would order a sparkling water or an A beer. and what amazed me as it went around the table, it was like I'd given everyone permission. I'd given them permission to choose what they really wanted to choose and almost instantly 50 % of the table didn't choose an alcoholic drink.

25:17So what that said to me, all of these years, half of the table didn't want to drink in that environment. No one actually wants to be doing this thing that they think everybody's expecting them and needing them to do. Yes. That's very interesting. It was fascinating for me. So it gave me real courage right from the start. And I realized that most people sitting there thinking, it's a lunchtime or it's an evening. You know, I've got something on tonight. I don't want to be, you know, inebriated. Or I've got something on in the morning or I'm training in the gym. So it was like I was giving permission to these people to make better choices.

25:48So right from the start, I've got to own it. The broken community were brilliant. I thought I was going to be thrown out of it. They've been absolutely brilliant with it. You know, and I think it's really been appreciated. And of course, it's still a boozy industry. Yeah, and there's always that one guy who's like good to go and he's like pushing the pace and like, where are we going after this? That's the guy. And that guy tends to be the most vociferous and sometimes the most charismatic, right? Yeah, there's a lot of that going on. So it was giving people a different permission. But then instead of me just doing a drinks night, because all the other brokers did that, I had to think outside the box.

26:23So we'd go to a Barry's Bootcamp or go on a surf trip or yoga. Who would have thought it? Yoga with brokers. But then that became my USP in many ways. So it turned something that could have been... Wait, your USP? Like your distinguishing thing? Yeah, my unique selling point, as it were. I didn't know that acronym. Yeah, yeah, that was taking them out and doing something different. So it flipped the script. Plus, then I was unbelievably consistent. So I was about 10 times better at my actual job. So rather than having to deal with a client or a broker that might have gone out to lunch on a Thursday or a Friday and is not quite on top form because they're out till silly o 'clock, I was banging the drum every single day, a nine out of 10, a 10 out of 10.

27:03And the clients could feel that. So I started to build better relationships and deeper relationships, because I was really good at what I was supposed to be good at, as well as able to socialize and have fun and still laugh and do the banter and all the things I need to do. So it was rocket fuel to my broken career, which gave me real great heart. So I think for those people that are fearful of that, I think I'm a great example. That is the most boozy industry in the world. and I went into that industry and was able to transform it almost from the inside out. It's one thing to have this revelation to change your life in this certain way, to become happier, more fulfilled, more productive, all the things that you mentioned.

27:37It's another thing to then decide I'm gonna walk away from this thing I'm suddenly really good at and successful at to make the alcohol-free lifestyle my sort of life's work and calling, right? Like stepping away. I remember we grabbed a bite to eat when I was in London and you were still straddling both worlds at that time, trying to figure out if you should really, you know, cut the umbilical cord of being a broker and take that leap of faith, which is not an easy leap to take when you have a family and bills and you're sort of accustomed to a certain type of lifestyle and, you know, salary that's coming in predictably.

28:13Yeah, it's huge. And especially my setup was I owned a broken business. I built a franchise in the end, which I owned whilst I was in the business. But if I leave the business, I said goodbye to it. so their golden handcuffs were locked pretty tight, so it took a ton of courage to walk away from that. But I think like yourself, you've made so many courageous decisions in your own life. What I've realized is the most courageous decisions I've ever made have always been the best decisions. And they come with a lot of fear and trepidation, but following that passion, I didn't know when I stopped drinking 10 years ago it was going to become my life's work.

28:46I had no idea. I just went on this little adventure of taking a break, and it's become the thing that gets me out of bed every single day. I've been pretty much going live on Instagram and Facebook for 10 years, banging the same drum every day because I love it and I live it. And I think that shines through.

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32:30what are some of the things that have changed since we last spoke in terms of your life and the movement more broadly yeah so in terms of my life what i stepped down from uh one unit beer as mentioned in in 2019 really because i wanted to come up this whole alcohol free space from lots of different angles i wanted to collaborate i wanted to work with lots of different people so one of the big things that happened, if I wind the clock back a bit, 12 years ago, I read a book by Anthony Robbins, Awaken the Giant Within, the classic book. And what's funny about that, I don't remember buying that book.

33:03I think I bought that book after a few drinks. It's the great truth of it all, because it sort of appeared on my bedside table. And there were two bits of that book that changed my life. One of them was a quote, it's not events that shape our lives, but our beliefs about them. There's such a powerful quote that traces all the way back to stoicism and epictetus. We'll come back to that. And the second part was that Anthony Robbins mentioned that he'd trained with a guy called John Grinder. John Grinder was the co-founder of NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming. If you're familiar with that, it's like a coaching tool.

33:35So I thought, imagine if I could train with the guy that trained Anthony Robbins, that would be pretty cool. So I found John Grinder and I trained with John Grinder. This is 12 years ago before I stopped drinking. And it blew my mind. So this was a coach training course, like an executive coach training course. I had no intention of doing anything with that. I just wanted to learn the skills. But I loved it. I fell in love with that side of learning, how your brain works, coaching. And really that was, I think, the thing that gave me the confidence to start the One You Know Beer movement, effectively, which was group coaching.

34:03So when I stepped out of One You Know Beer, I thought, how can I collaborate with more people? And what I realized is, having gone back to university and done degrees and master's degrees in positive psychology and coaching psychology to get the real science behind it, What if I started training some coaches to effectively do what I do in many ways? And that's been the greatest gift of my life for the last four years. You know, I've worked with about 200 different coaches that I've trained in executive coaching. We train them all in alcohol-free performance coaching. So this is coaching for the middle lane.

34:31And out of that, there's been so many wonderful stories. Because what I realized is I'm just one person. Can I inspire another wave to go out and do their thing? Some of the organizations that have come out of that training are incredible. A lady called Jo Hall was in the NHS as a manager. She'd come to take that training, trained as a coach, went back into the NHS during COVID. We built a course together around positive psychology that went out to 50 ,000 NHS staff during COVID. Podcasts, Over the Influence, a lady called Sharon Hartley come to train with me at 1-1-0-Bear as a coach. Over the Influence reaches hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people.

35:08The Dry app, which we'll get to later, was born out of that. So that's been the big change for me personally. has been training coaches and then allowing them to go out into the world and mentoring them and helping them do their thing so we can magnify the reach. And that reaches into the millions now of people that we've inspired to take a break from alcohol, change their life in lots of different ways, which has been so exciting. What I really appreciate and what I want to hear more about is the broadening scope of the work that you are now doing compared to what you were doing. It has an alcohol-free component to it, but the aperture is much broader, right?

35:42You have this wealth of understanding and education and experience in psychology generally, behavioral psychology, coaching psychology, et cetera. And this has applicability, of course, to anybody who's trying to break up with alcohol, but there are so many other use cases for this, right? Like it doesn't have to just stay in that lane. And so how has your work kind of grown outside of the alcohol-free ecosystem into, you know, other areas of maybe not high performance is the right word, but, you know, higher performing in general. Yeah. And that's the thing. Once you understand how change works, whether it's alcohol-free or optimizing yourself to perform better.

36:24These tools can be used in other ways, right? It's the same stuff. I think that's why when people go alcohol-free, they often transform their lives because they've just learned a set of skills that they can apply to their nutrition, to their diet, to their careers. Some of the real broad learnings if we come to them and then how we're applying them. There's a couple of principles that I love. One of them is the map is not the territory. This is what John Grinder taught me all these years ago, but it's a really fascinating insight. And what he means by that is no one sees objective reality. And it's one of these sort of philosophical understandings, but it's so powerful when you get your head around it.

36:56So for example, if I was to put a cheeseburger in the middle of the room and three people were sitting around this cheeseburger, the cheeseburger is the territory or the reality. Now, someone could be sitting there as an ethical vegan. They could smell the cheeseburger, sense the cheeseburger. And at that moment, it goes into their brain and through their beliefs as an ethical vegan, they might feel a sense of rage and upset. The actions that flow there might push that burger away, that cheeseburger away. Another person could be sitting there, is hungry, hungover, and a meat eater. They smell the cheeseburger, sense the cheeseburger.

37:25They might experience emotions of excitement and they can't wait, enjoy it. And they want to move towards the cheeseburger. A third person might sense it, you know, smell it, and be, for religious reasons, have no interest. And their emotions might be one of, nah, just not interested. Now, if you look at that, the cheeseburger, the reality, didn't change magically for each different person. But their beliefs transformed their experience of the cheeseburger. And when you start to understand that, our beliefs actually dictate the world that we live in. Einstein said the greatest choice we ever get to make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.

38:02So when you start to understand how beliefs work, you start to realize things like this. You've probably had this experience. We've all got a different map of the world because we've all got a different set of internal beliefs, past histories, traumas, successes. No one sees the same reality. The cheeseburger is never the same for anyone. And that's indicative of the lives that we lead, which is such wonderful philosophical wisdom. And you'll start to see this now. For example, in our relationship to alcohol, I bet at some point, someone said something along the lines to you, such as, Rich, why don't you just drink less?

38:34Did you ever get that kind of wisdom? Yeah, I mean, plenty of that. Yeah. It's me telling myself that also quite a bit. And I think what that is, very often when you receive that type of wisdom, that's someone through their map of the world, it makes perfect sense to them to just drink less. Whereas for someone else's map of the world, that might be the worst wisdom insight that anyone shared with them ever. So I think we're all running around slightly confused, thinking everyone's got the same map. But we've all got these unbelievable different maps of the world. And I think that's where advice given at times or mentoring falls a bit short.

39:08But coaching can be really powerful because we understand that people have got individual maps. And the second principle, which is interesting, is self-determination theory. Self-determination theory really builds on this principle from Harry Harlow, who's this incredible researcher. He looked at primates and he was testing these primates in the 1960s. And really at that time, we just thought motivation was all about the carrot or the stick. That was the only two types of motivation. So Harry Harlow was about to do some work with these monkeys. He was going to put some puzzles in with the traditional carrot and stick.

39:36He thought, I'll just get the monkeys acclimatized to the puzzles. He puts the puzzles inside the cage, thinking they're not going to go near these things unless we have a carrot or stick. Lo and behold, the monkeys start to solve the puzzles. This transforms psychology. Dan Pink writes about this in his brilliant book called Drive. And he describes it like this, and I love it. He said it was like watching a steel ball roll down an incline, only to see it float in the air. This was the transformation. What they discovered was internal intrinsic motivation. We are more motivated by internal desires.

40:08I want to rather than shoulds. So why this is really applicable broadly, not just in the alcohol-free space, and what I try and do, we try and inspire people to figure it out for themselves, i.e. through their own map of the world because no one knows them better than themselves. And then also turn it into a want. So it's their desire to change rather than someone else's desire to change. Really powerful tools. And then you can apply that to anywhere. So that's led me on this wonderful adventure all the way back to the Professional Footballers Association, which is so cool. You know, it's a real highlight of my life in many ways.

40:40What are you doing with them? So they've just started a business school. So they've never had a business school before. So this is for players, past and present. Some of the best athletes you've ever seen are now going to the business school to start to transition their careers after their playing days, That's interesting. So they created a business school for the players to help them transition when their careers are over. Yeah. And basically, they got wind of a lot of the work that I was doing. I was working with a lot of professional athletes, as it were, and they invited me back in. And it's a great honor for me to be part of that business school.

41:11I'm pretty much involved in every course they run. I go in as the beliefs guy, the sort of mindset coach, getting them ready to learn. But my story is when I got injured and my football career came to an end, I'd run up a bit of a credit card bill. Not a whopping great big one, but a classic. I think I'd spent too many summers in IB for at that stage. And I thought my career was going to go on forever. And I was waiting on my next contract. And of course, that contract didn't come because I was injured. And my PFA representatives said, get in touch with the footballers union. So everyone that plays professional football is in that union.

41:42David Beckham's in that union. And I wrote to the PFA a letter and they cleared that credit card for me. No questions asked. And it wasn't a lot of money, but that was a lot to me. And I always vowed I wanted to give back to them. So the fact that I'm now back there in that full circle, and the reason I'm there is for this alcohol-free adventure to lead me on that journey, which I'm so thrilled by. I love this idea of intrinsic motivation, this idea of intrinsic motivation kind of upending a paradigm of carrot and stick, you know, kind of dualism over how behavior works. In the sobriety context, it's sort of stated like you can't make somebody willing who's not willing.

42:20Like you can't instill willingness in another human being. It's almost like having to perform an inception. Like a lot of people who have somebody who struggles with a substance addiction in their life are trying to help them get sober. And it's a heartbreaking, you know, sort of situation where until you realize like I can't help this person because they don't want to help themselves, which is really what you're getting at in the alcohol-free context, right? So as a coach who's understanding behavior in a different way, how do you work with somebody or how do you try to instill a sense of intrinsic motivation in somebody who doesn't want to interrupt their behavior pattern?

43:02Yeah, and this is a great question. And this comes back to the stages of change model. It's a great model, the trans-theoretical model by James Prochaska. And it gives us this insight into how humans change. And humans have to be ready. and I'll give you a quick story about that and again this is I'm always talking about the middle lane so my wife my lovely wife Tara so she does this fitness program called the six pack revolution and it's a really skillful concept because when you're on the inside part of it is you don't drink which is really clever on my part because I know you're going to lose weight and you're going to be more optimal and more consistent and she does this this course gets about 45 days in and this is only a year ago so bearing in mind her husband for the last nine years has been like the vanguard of this movement banging on about the joys and the wins and Tara pulls me to one side as if she's telling me a secret.

43:46Pulls me to one side and says, I'm about 45 days alcohol-free. And do you know what, Andy? I've got more time. I've got more energy. I feel a bit better. I'm like looking at it going, are you having a laugh? Have you not listened to me for the last nine years bang on about this thing? But that is such a beautiful example. People have to be ready to change and change is not all about action. It's also who they're hearing it from. Like you can't always be that voice for the people that you're closest with. Yeah. They need to hear it from somebody else. It's so true. Because you're just fucking Andy.

44:15You know what I mean? Like, what could you possibly offer me that I don't already know? You know, the substance of what you're saying doesn't matter. It's the messenger. It's so true. And if we look at that stages of change model, there's these various stages. One of them is pre-contemplation. And then you go into contemplation. And then you go into preparation and action. But pre-contemplation. And while I like James Brachaska, just coming back to that, his dad died of alcoholism. And his dad was very wary of any medical help. so he vowed and I love people like that he was impassioned to figure out how humans make change and show humans how to self-change so pre-contemplation is when you've got a certain set of behaviours but you're not aware that they're damaging you for example but other people might be able to see it so you're sort of unaware so the move from pre-contemplation into contemplation is a massive move and I think people don't appreciate that so there's no action but the action is someone now is aware of their relationship with alcohol and it potentially needs to change.

45:10And I think what you and I do brilliantly, and especially yourself with this podcast, you take a lot of people from pre-contemplation into contemplation. And that is a huge move and that should be celebrated, i.e. they've become aware that maybe their middle lane drinking relationship is not serving them. And I think that's why we confuse action at times with the whole enchilada, when actually to move from unawareness into awareness is a great moving point. And then from that place, and the research plays this out, which is really interesting. When people suddenly become aware, so they've become aware of their relationship with alcohol, maybe they want to change it, it takes on average two years.

45:46Two years before they actually take action. See, a lot of people don't realize that. They think, again, it should be this instant action thing. And not only that, this is where I love this information. I think it's really important to get it across what Petraska found out for anyone making a change. Very often, it's like an upward corkscrew. it takes four or five times around that loop before they make change. So what that also tells us, slip ups, departures from the wagon, blips, whatever you want to call them in any context, they're a necessary part of change for most people. They're not a reason to be ashamed or to give up.

46:22So a lot of the work that I do actually with the coaches that I train or in the world that I'm involved in, especially around change, I actually coach a lot of people and prepare them for when it goes wrong. That's one of the most important things that I do. I want to get into that. But before we do that, this idea, this two-year window, right, between awareness and action, what have you come to understand about the human experience and the human mind that it would take a human being two years to put into action a change that they know is in their best interest? Like, what is wrong with us? It is fascinating, isn't it?

46:57But that's my story. Is that just alcohol or that's any behavior change? Any behavioral change through Prochaska's model. He was looking at smokers at that time, but it translates into alcohol as well. If you're dealing with a physiologically addictive substance, I'm sure it's a little bit different than, hey, listen, can you just do some other behavioral change that doesn't have that loaded piece to it? Yeah, absolutely. But still, there is a huge delay between change. We think it's all about action, but it's very slow. And I think that's because as humans, we are herd creatures. we build a set of beliefs in our mind which often create ambivalence and I think a lot of this is about ambivalence especially for the middle lane it's that psychological ambivalence for example around alcohol such as an ambivalence being that love-hate relationship so let's look at that with alcohol because that's always an interesting thing to talk about so lots of people will say things like I love a drink on one hand and they might wake up the day after a few drinks and say never again and that builds psychological ambivalence and I think where there's ambivalence you're constantly at the mercy of willpower because you're having that dual conversation inside your brain.

48:03And I think that takes such a long time to overcome for a lot of people. Ambivalence. And very often it's around beliefs that are no longer true for them. So for example, let's look at that. Someone might say alcohol is fun. I like to have fun with alcohol. And my retort to that always, is that true for you still? It might have been when you were 19 or 20, but is that still true for you? You know, is alcohol fun? Let's just say this, I would argue for most people, some of the worst moments of their life have happened whilst under the influence of alcohol. I think that's pretty consistent across the board.

48:36So that logic doesn't hold. Alcohol isn't fun. It might be on occasions or it was on occasions in the past, but it's not consistently fun. Otherwise, every time you're drunk, it would be fun. What other ways can you have fun. You know, you start to break down, I think, some of these limiting beliefs. That's a lot of the work that we do, because I think when you've got that ambivalence in your brain, it constantly trips you up. So I think there's always work to be done that takes time to overcome those limiting beliefs effectively in the brain. So you get closer to what looks like the truth for you.

49:05And when that ambivalence is gone, then the change happens. The idea that somebody could have the worst times of their life under the influence of alcohol and still tell themselves that alcohol is fun. To me, that's like indicia of addiction because that's insanity, right? Like if this is motivating you into behaviors that are like just awful that you're ashamed of and all the like, and you still say it's fun, you know, that speaks to the power of alcohol also. Yeah, and I think it's across the board. I think it's easier to overlook when it's just a social thing and you're cavalier about it. Oh, completely.

49:38And I think it's across the board with alcohol. We build all these limiting beliefs about it. For example, I need it to socialize. so and I love this right as a coach I'm listening to people's language and I'm like is that true you're socializing all the time without alcohol in your job you're socializing when you bump into someone in the coffee shop you're socializing alcohol is just this tiny part of your social life it's not the be or an end of your social life but if we tell ourselves those stories they become our reality so a lot of the work I'm doing constantly is trying to get people to think a bit differently and see the truth for themselves actually I do use alcohol to socialize in certain settings, but I'm socializing all the time without it.

50:17And in fact, it's like a fun sponge very often to the social day after, isn't it? When you're tired and hungover and can't quite be asked to do the things you want to do. Whereas if you remove alcohol, you get more social because then you can jump up and meet people and do different things in a different way. So a lot of these really ingrained beliefs we end up with, alcohol in particular, but many changes, they need a bit of work to undo them in the brain almost. And once they're cleared, then I think people go on to much longer lasting change? Well, the undoing is uncomfortable and it does require putting you in that uncomfortable position of socializing without it, which will probably in the short term produce anxiety because it's a behavior you're not acclimated to because you're so inured to drinking in those social settings.

51:02But the only way to the other side of that is to develop some experience with it and realize like, I didn't die. I was able to have a conversation. It wasn't that bad. maybe I can do that next time. Yeah, and this is really powerful. Just recently, we had a boat party. My great friend, Matt Pink, the no booze cruise. And this went up and down the Thames, 250 people packed. And I'm a bit like you, I'm quite introverted. So a lot of people like that on a boat. You are not introverted. That's a bunch of bullshit. I'm telling you. Oh, come on. I'm telling you. If you don't believe it, I'm telling you.

51:34I get my energy from Solitude. I can do it. I can play a very extrovert game, you know, but equally I am by my nature quite introvert. So you put me on a boat. I can't escape the boat. There's 250 people there. This is just recent. Yeah, I'm thinking, this just feels like a nightmare to me. I would never go on a no-booze cruise. Right. You're trapped. Yeah. You can't escape. But I felt that sense of anxiety. And it started to come up again like it had done all the years before. And I had to sit with it, right? Because there was no option. You know, I'm on the no-booze cruise. Before, I would have turned to a drink and whatnot.

52:03And it was a revelation to me. Because I was uncomfortable for about 10 minutes. And then obviously my primitive brain settled down and says, it's okay. Yeah, there's lots of new faces that you don't know, but it's okay, you're safe. And then it just went away. So what I realized in that moment, I was drinking for the best part of 20 years to relieve what would have disappeared on its own accord had I left it for 10 minutes. And that was a revelation to me. And I think a lot of people find themselves in that situation. Again, why I love people taking breaks from alcohol to have that lived experience of, oh actually yeah there's a bit of a sense of anxiety meeting all these new people but it dissipates and it dissolves and then I get an opportunity to really connect on a completely different level and those no booze cruises by the way are a riot you would never know there was no alcohol on board you'd never know if you were like an outside person looking in you'd be like look at that lot going crazy it's a brilliant brilliant way to connect wow on the subject of the upward spiral and helping people navigate setbacks relapses et cetera.

53:06How do you coach around that? How do you counsel around that? Fact, which is that that's just part of the process for most people. It's the rare occasion where somebody steps over the line and they never go back. The more common experience is, yes, in a weak moment, they'll fall backwards or whatever. I'm sure you've seen every permutation of that. And that's generally accompanied with feelings of guilt and shame and failure and a sense of powerlessness, like I can't do this. And a lot of people, unfortunately, just give up on trying again. So talk a little bit about that world. Yeah. And for me, this is the most important part.

53:45And when I first got into this 10 years ago, and I didn't understand behavioral change in the way that I do now, slip ups or departures from the wagon, they were like Voldemort, he who shall not be mentioned. Because I thought if I go there with anyone, am I giving them license to slip up or take mulligans. So I just didn't go there. And what I found through that lived experience, people would just disappear. They'll disappear out of the groups. They wouldn't come back. And I started to find out they felt ashamed. They felt embarrassed. They felt like they'd let me down. They'd let everyone else down.

54:14And then what I started to realize as I understood the literature and really gained that experience about behavioral change, the best thing to do with it is own it up front, own it in advance. Let's get it out in the open. I'd explain about Petrasker's model and the upward court screw that actually slip ups for most people are a necessary part of change. Of course, we're not trying to slip up, but let's get it out in the open. Let's have a look at it. What are your options if you were to slip up? What could you do? What could you learn from this event? Yes, it might hurt a bit, but if you see it for what it is, Richard Roy talks about this, the great spiritual author who I love to bits.

54:50We learn more by getting it wrong than we do by getting it right. That's how we make lasting change. So by getting it out in the open way in advance of it happening, discussing what are your options, should you slip up, can you bounce back, can you turn that, you know, one drink and cut it off, or can you bounce back the next day, come back to the group, come back to the community, whatever that looks like, you arm people and you disarm the slip up. So when it comes, and it's going to come for most people, they're ready for it, they've been here before, they've spoken about it, they've got new options, and what I found was people then would come back, they'd come back and they'd own that slip up to the group, to me and everyone else, because it's a necessary and a very natural part of change for the vast majority of people.

55:31And with that energy and with that approach, it transformed the way that I would help people change their relationship or change behaviors. We're talking about the middle path. Yes. If somebody has a real problem with alcohol, as we should have said kind of at the outset, you should seek professional help. I always tell people, find your way to a 12-step meeting, raise your hand, don't try to do this alone. But for those people who don't fall into that category, I think there's a lot of wisdom and hope and inspiration in the work that you're doing. But I can't help but be curious, with all the people that you worked with over the years, how often does somebody who really does have a problem, who probably should be, you know, at AA or in a treatment center, they're taking the easier, softer path by saying, I don't really want to do that.

56:20I'm going to go over and see Andy and I'm going to fix my problem this way. For you or the coaches that you work with to quickly find out like, oh, this is a different situation altogether. I'm sure that that scenario has arisen over the years. Yeah. And that's something why I train our coaches specifically in that to figure out who they can and can't work with. So we want to be very much in the middle lane. If someone trips that switch, then we'll advise on, refer on. And just a quick note to everyone listening as well, Now, just a caveat around that, I think if you are inspired by this conversation and feel like taking a break and you experience any unwanted symptoms, tremors, hallucinations, that is a call to your doctor or even to A &E because alcohol withdrawal, for those that become physically dependent, can be lethal.

57:03It can be lethal, yeah. So it's a really important topic. And of course, there are some blurred lines there. Right, because people who really should be in a controlled environment are going to opt to go see you before they go over to do that. And maybe that's a wonderful thing because it's like an early warning signal. And that's the way I see it. It's like, well, maybe that reveals some truths for them to go and get specialists help where they need it. Because my opinion is we're all on the same team, just planning different positions. I love the work that the AA and 12-step do. And all the different recovery communities, that's not where I'm plotted up in recovery.

57:36And of course, there's blurred lines. But I think even if people begin with us, it might be that they realize, actually, this is not for me. And it's not going to be right for everyone. Let's get some professional help. But equally, my dream is that a lot less people are coming all the way down that funnel and ended up in 12-step and recovery because actually they've got out way in advance. That's the big hope. I like the reframing around the slip-ups and all of that. It really is. It's such a guilt and shame-inducing scenario that works at cross-purposes with long-term recovery because it does motivate you to not want to go back or to hide from those people or to not pick up the phone or not talk to somebody about what happened.

58:19When in truth, it's just part of the process for a lot of people. And to, you know, create a different frame for that, I think is a much healthier approach. And particularly for middle path people, like it shouldn't be any big deal at all then, right? Other than this sense that you violated this commitment that you've made to yourself. Yeah, and I think that's where it gets its power. No one wants to slip up deliberately. Otherwise, you know, you're playing a different game altogether. But should it happen, and it will probably happen for most people, if you're trying to make any change, let's just get it in the open.

58:51Let's be grown up about it. What can it teach you? What can you learn from it? How can you bounce back quicker and more resilient so that if you face a similar scenario next time, you're prepared for it? And I continually see that. People make great long-term lasting change. And bear in mind, I've put hundreds of thousands of people through these type of systems, if not into the millions now. I continually see the same thing. most people's path includes quite a few bumps in the road. And most people will still own the fact that some of those bumps in the road taught them everything they needed to know.

59:22Yeah, they become revelatory because they illuminate your weak spots or your blind spots and then give you clarity about what needs to be redressed in order to move forward to the best of your ability. Exactly. And I think that's what's so important and so powerful. And it takes away that sense of that shame, regret, guilt. and then people go on to make longer term lasting change. That's what it's all about for me. What else have you learned about the human animal and behavior in the five years since we did this? I mean, seeing thousands of people with your understanding of psychology, any surprising revelations that maybe you weren't quite aware of or hadn't really thought about adequately the last time we spoke?

1:00:03Yeah, I think very often it's just this lack of awareness at times. I think if we just come back to the alcohol topic, I think so many people are so unaware of how their behavior around alcohol as a middle-lane drinker, you know, the once a week or twice a week or the occasional binge, the impact that that's having on their life. I see it continually. I just cannot see or comprehend. And I was that person. My friend Matt Pink, I mentioned earlier, he was the co-founder of Dry. He has this lovely saying, when you're inside the jar, you can't read the label. And I love that. You know, you've got to get outside the jar at times.

1:00:37And I think a lot of what I'm trying to do is what Freud spoke about. Freud said the number one objective of psychoanalysis is to turn the unconscious into the conscious. And I think really for me, what I love about the alcohol-free space and change is raising that level of consciousness. How can I inspire people to wake up? And that's why these conversations are so great. To maybe think, oh, maybe my middle lane drinking relationship is the thing that's getting in the way of my performance at work. or is the thing or the reason that I'm a bit inconsistent in the way I nourish my body or exercise or maybe it's getting in the way of my fun or maybe that's the reason the world feels a little bit grey and a bit dark and dull.

1:01:14That for me is massive and I'm amazed, especially with alcohol, the lack of awareness. It's incredible and I think that's where there's this sort of tidal wave of change that's coming because I think more and more people are starting to become aware where they were unaware. Remember that sort of pre-contemplation into contemplation. That for me has been the most exciting bit. Understanding that, that a lot of the work that I have to do is not to get people necessarily to take action. It's to try and get them into that. The awareness. Awareness. That space. Space. I think that's absolutely huge.

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1:03:26Not very many people have your verve and enthusiasm for psychology to the extent that you do. Like you just light up when you talk about these studies and all these books that you've read and, you know, the education that you've had around human behavior. But I think what's really cool about what you've done, and I mentioned it earlier, is the broadening of your aperture to think about behavior more broadly. Yes, in the alcohol-free context, but also in the other areas of our life. And I know personally, and I know this is true for you, that when I was able to get over the hump with my addiction and start to repair my life, it changes your perception of self and your attitudes around your own capabilities.

1:04:12And you start to look around and think, well, I just did this thing that I never thought was possible and it changed my life in such a dramatic way. Where else can I aim this focus? Where are my other blind spots that I can illuminate and go from unawareness to awareness and eventually to behavior change? And that's something I've tried to do and continue to try to do. That's something that you've done. But I think a lot of people can get caught in these plateau areas. I think you can see it in the alcohol-free movement. You have this change. It changed your life dramatically because you did this thing.

1:04:49You're very excited about it. You want to evangelize about it. But you end up staying there instead of saying, well, I did this. What else can I do? And like moving on and continuing that growth trajectory so that you're hitting on all the emotional, mental, spiritual, physical aspects of what it means to be a more actualized human being. You see it in the vegan movement. People, they go on a plant-based diet or they become an ethical vegan. and they went from inside the jar to outside the jar. They're seeing the world differently now and they wanna tell everyone about it. They wanna evangelize this lifestyle because it was so transformational for them.

1:05:29But if they just stay talking about kale all the time and they don't think about where there are other areas of their life where maybe they're inside the jar, I think it can ultimately end up truncating somebody's true growth potential. So you as somebody who I know understands this, how do you get somebody who might end up, you know, stuck in one area to see their life from a more 10 ,000 foot view? Yeah. And this is where self-development comes in. Back to Anthony Robbins and the book that I read all those years ago, a massive part of what I've been doing for the last 10 years is helping people stop something or take a break from alcohol.

1:06:09So that's the initial behavior. And there's that excitement, that euphoria, you know, you feel better, you look better skin starts to glow all those wonderful things yeah but then equally what next let's try and build such a compelling future that there's no room for that old behavior that's always been my approach and always will be what are your goals what are your ambitions what your dreams what can you do now you've got more time you know alcohol gives you so much time back when you go alcohol free seneca spoke about it the great philosopher it's not that we don't have enough time we just waste so much of it on hangovers and drinking itself?

1:06:40How can you leverage that time to start old hobbies or interests? You know, what are the other things you could do in your life? What are your ambitions? What are your goals? How can you leverage the learning as you just described, the courage that you've gained from making this one change in your life to change other areas? Let's get so excited about your future. There's just no room for alcohol. Like why would you put alcohol back into your life when you're crushing it in all these other domains? Maybe you're losing way. You've got more time. You've got more energy. Your relationships are better.

1:07:07You're kicking ass in the office. Why would you put alcohol back in that mix? So that's always been my approach. It's self-development. What are your goals? What are your dreams? How can we leverage the same understanding of beliefs and behavioral change to transform everything? You mentioned intrinsic motivation earlier, and I'm curious about how you think about and how you define motivation more broadly and where motivation sits in the context of a lot of other buzzwords that get thrown around like inspiration or drive, as you just mentioned, ambition, discipline, but maybe even most importantly, words like values and identity.

1:07:47Because from where I see things, and perhaps you'll correct me if you see it differently, motivation is sort of an unreliable energy source. It's certainly more potent when it's internally driven as opposed to extrinsically. But motivation, inspiration, these shouldn't be levers for behavior. I think the true like sort of sustainable lever is when you go from motivation and inspiration and through action, this new behavior becomes encased as a piece of your identity. I am a person who does not drink or I am a person who does these things as a bedrock for how one shows up in the world as opposed to, well, I'll wait until I feel motivated to do it or I feel good enough or this whole mood follows action sort of idea.

1:08:39Yeah, and I believe consistency is king, consistency is queen. And I think what I mean by that is that repeating those behaviors consistently over a long enough time, I think you become that person. The identity emerges from that. And that's the secret to all change. I become someone, I just don't drink. why the hell would I drink? It makes absolutely no sense in my brain. So I don't drink. I'm someone that exercises because I value exercise. So I think that values piece, and this is part of that self-development programs that I run, for example, we do a lot around values. If you look at all the elite athletes, Dr.

1:09:13Stephen Peters talks about this, who wrote the Chimp Paradox. One of the exercises that he'll give a lot of the elite, elite athletes, he worked with, you know, Team Sky is one of the top psychologists in the world. He sits them down and works on their values. What's most important to you. And I do this with the brokers, the elite performers, the CEOs, the entrepreneurs, because very often they lose themselves in the job, in their career. They forget that they're, you know, a husband, a wife, you know, a daughter, whatever it is. So we reconnect with their roles, reconnect with their deepest held values.

1:09:44And there's a lovely exercise for that, which I always like. It's that vision or visualization where you imagine yourself as 100 years old, and you're coming to the last minutes of your life, and you're surrounded by all your loved ones and you've lived this really long, vibrant, healthy, fantastic life. And someone steps forward from the crowd, a great grandchild and says to you, you know, as this hundred year old version of yourself, how should I live my life? What should I do with my one wild, short and precious life? And it's a really nice, insightful technique to just see what comes up, what comes up for people.

1:10:18And I think you're starting then to get into what's really authentic to you, those deeply held values. And when you align with your deeply held values, and you start showing up and shining through those values and you're consistent in certain behaviors and you become those behaviors, someone that doesn't drink, someone that exercises, I think you really set the platform for like endless energy. And that's where I believe I've been for the last 10 years. I've just tapped into that source and now I can bounce up every dance or sing this song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What in your experience is the differentiator?

1:10:50I mean, well, first, let me just say, like change is hard. Nobody wants to change their behavior. Yeah, like I certainly don't. You have to drag me into doing anything that's in my best interest. So let's just acknowledge that. But in your experience of counseling and coaching and working with so many people over the years, what do you think is the differentiator between those who are able to make that switch successfully and those that can't or refuse or repeatedly fail and end up like opting out or can't sustain it? yeah it reminds me of a good quote as you were talking there w.h alden said we would rather die in our dread than change and i always love that i just think it's a beautiful way of saying it we don't like change you know we would stay in a relationship that doesn't serve us because the pain of the relationship is outweighed by the potential pain of change we see that all the time so you're right to acknowledge that and those i think that end up being more successful when it comes to change, understand that it's at the level of beliefs.

1:11:51And I think we touched on it earlier when we got into that map of the world. I think what happens, we end up with a lot of limiting beliefs around change. So a lot of the work we end up doing is not coaching at the level of action, we coach at the level of beliefs. And what I mean by that is too often people try and change their behavior, but it's too late. So for example, they might say to themselves, right, next time, instead of reaching for the alcoholic drink, I'm going to reach for the non-alcoholic drink, or I'm going to take a bath or go for a walk, which on the face of it looks quite skillful in terms of behavioral change.

1:12:22But it's too late because the belief, whatever the belief was about the given scenario, let's just say I come home and I believe I'm stressed, that kickstarts the emotions that might be like I'm frustrated, I'm tired, which leads to the actions. So the really skillful way to do this is always coach at the level of belief. So if you start to change your beliefs about alcohol, for example, i.e. does alcohol help me relax? and really unpick that and realize that no, it doesn't because actually it blows up your neurochemistry. It gives a sense of relaxation, which is temporary brain damage effectively.

1:12:55When you start to understand that and you change at the level of beliefs, it solves the actions rather than trying to coach at the level of action, which is too late because at the level of action, you need willpower. And we spoke about this earlier. You need willpower to choose the alcohol-free beer over the alcoholic beer when the change is at the level of action. And of course, willpower runs out. We know that through the great research of Roy Baumeister. He taught us that willpower is like a metaphorical muscle. The more you use it, the quicker it runs out. So if you're tired, stressed, hungry, emotional, and you're trying to use willpower to make those actionable changes, at some point, the willpower is gone.

1:13:30You slip up, you beat yourself up, you tell yourself you're no good. But if you change at the level of belief, i.e., why do I want to drink? It doesn't serve me anymore. It doesn't help me relax. In fact, it's going to make me 10 times more stressed. that changes the behavior because the actions then are completely different because you've changed it at the level of belief. That's the real skill, in my opinion. I think there's also wisdom in reverse engineering those scenarios as well. To use your example, like you come home and you have the drink because you had a stressful day. All right, well, what made you make that choice in that moment when on your drive home, you were convincing yourself that you weren't going to do that.

1:14:08And the way to kind of help make sense of that is to go in the reverse direction on the timeline and say, it wasn't in the moment when you picked up the drink that that decision was made. It was made as a result of all these things that led up to it, which is the fact that you were stressed. So how can you be a little bit, how can you de-stress your day so you're not in that position? How can you, like in the preceding hours or even days that led to that occasion, how can you change things so that you don't have this cascade of events that inevitably leads to making that choice that feels powerless in the moment when you had just told yourself you were going to make a better choice yeah exactly you go back upstream and then also you can come to the point of let's just stick with alcohol what is the perceived upside that it pretends to give you and it might be relaxation all right what other ways can you healthily relax let's crowd it out with all these other ways and it's to actually like again you just loosen the legs of these beliefs It very often is a beliefs game.

1:15:07The middle lane, we're always talking middle lane on today's podcast. It's a beliefs game. Rather than physiological, it's psychological. So I think you loosen those legs of beliefs, i.e. it helps me relax. Let's really go after that, does it? Then smother it with all the other healthy ways that you can relax. And then also go back upstream and start to do the work. And of course, if you're not drinking, naturally, you're going to be less stressed anyway. And you might find that a lot of those actual issues start to disappear. Again, this is how you make lasting change. It's a really skillful process when you look at it.

1:15:34And it takes a bit of effort and it takes a bit of courage. But once you understand it, this is, I think, hopefully the message of this podcast, you can use the same set of skills and just drop them onto your nutrition, onto your fitness, onto your career. This is where it's so exciting for me. And I think why we see these massive transformations. Can we talk a little bit about real world scenarios that I think present themselves and are issues for people who are attempting to live this alcohol-free lifestyle? I suspect there's a lot of people watching or listening to this who are like, okay, here these guys are, they're banging on again about the alcohol-free lifestyle.

1:16:08I should probably do it. And then their thoughts immediately turn to, yeah, but my life's gonna be boring and I have to go to that wedding next year. So that's not gonna work. Like immediately, all the excuses and the reasons why it's a bad idea crop up. So I'd like to go through a few of those and you can kind of bat them away. The first of which is my life is gonna be boring now. Like, I know Andy just said that no booze cruise was a blast, but I have a really hard time believing that. And there's no way that it's as fun as the booze cruise that I went on where it was all you could drink and it was an open bar.

1:16:47Yeah. So again, this is that beliefs thing. You know, and that's why we do the map is not the territory. There's a limiting belief that I need alcohol to have fun. So straight away, I'd say to that person, how else do you have fun? It's not just with alcohol. and also let's unpick that belief that alcohol is fun. Have you ever had a night that wasn't fun under the influence of alcohol? We both discovered that earlier. That's completely true. So it's not that alcohol is necessarily bringing the fun because you've had lots of nights that are not fun and is it also true that you can have fun in many other ways and you can connect in many other ways.

1:17:20You start to loosen those legs a little bit and of course, this is not trying to force people to change. I want to inspire people to change. I want to inspire people that actually, that maybe that's a limiting belief and they can have fun in so many other ways and they do have fun in so many other ways. And then I think that's more inspirational and aspirational as opposed to be telling, well, you should do this alcohol-free thing. Because then I think that comes from a place of lacking, a place of loss. I want people to aspire to this. So the person that says, well, I just need it to have fun.

1:17:48Firstly, is that true? It's not logically because there's been lots of times when you've drunk alcohol and it's not been fun. So it's definitely not alcohol. What other ways do you like to have fun? start to get them to loosen the legs of that belief like I described earlier. But ultimately, if someone still believes that because they're a bit further on the ambivalent side towards alcohol, I think that's just a waiting game. I'm not sure there's lots that I can do about that just at the moment. But I think through the lived experience of showing up to life and trying new things, you start to realize that actually I have fun in a million different ways without alcohol.

1:18:19And what about when you bounce up the next day? How do you feel then? You've got more chance of having fun. Yeah, I think it's important to look at the totality of circumstances. right? We can acknowledge that a booze cruise is fun. Like, it's not to say like, you thought you were having fun, you really weren't. Like, okay, it could be a good time. Like, let's be clear. Like, we all drank because, you know, we enjoyed it, at least, you know, in the early stages of it. But when you look at the totality, the cost that you're incurring as a result of that, like, is it more fun to wake up the next day and feel good in your body or to have to deal with that hangover and then the cascade of poor sleep and your lack of attention at work and then, you know, challenges in your relationship as a result of that, like all that other stuff that comes as part of that package.

1:19:05Yeah, if you look at our habitual machinery, it doesn't hang around for very long. So there's a trigger, routine, reward. So let's just say with alcohol, you know, say there's a trigger. For me, when I was 13 year old, there was that emotional pain of being a bit awkward around girls. The routine, drunk alcohol, the reward, it was easy to talk to girls. Like my little brain would have lit up at that and said, that's good. I did that math. Do that again. Yeah, do that again. Keep playing that. And I think so when it comes to our relationship with alcohol, very often we're carrying these limiting behavioral patterns that we formed very early in age.

1:19:37That's why it's so important to turn the unconscious and make it conscious to really look at it like you just described. Take the whole thing into play. Because if our habitual machinery really hung around in our 30s and 40s and took the whole picture in play, it wouldn't build a habit out of alcohol because it'd look around and go, actually, all right, the booze cruise, let's say after three or four, I don't remember much. I said something I regret that I'm ashamed of. It was funny for the first couple of drinks, but you could have achieved that without drinking anyway. And the next day I'm rubbish.

1:20:07I'm not the parent that I want to be. I'm not the partner that I wanted to be. I cancelled the gym session. I didn't meet my mates for the bike or the hike. If our habitual machinery stuck around for a bit longer, no one's building a habit out of alcohol. So I think the way to combat that is to make the unconscious, conscious, really look at it and ask yourself the question, is it the things that I thought it was? And I think most people will find that what alcohol promises, it takes away so much more. And what alcohol free gives you, it gives you a thousand times more. And I think that's the evaluation that I'm trying to inspire people to make.

1:20:39And I know with full confidence, if they genuinely do that evaluation, for most people, they'll find that actually alcohol is not the thing that they think it is in their life. Let's talk about dating. All right. How do you go on a date and not drink, Andy? I mean, come on. I guess you could day date or do the coffee thing, but in the classic dinner date context, it can be a challenge. I have a friend who's dealing with this right now who finds it all very cringe to go on a dinner date and be the teetotaling guy. You know, a first date where you're making an impression. I think it's a really common experience.

1:21:20So what say you? Yeah, so firstly, I've got no concept of this because all of my early dates would have involved alcohol. And now I'm happily married. And you're married, right. So you can't share your own personal experience. But equally, let's look at it. And I've had this question come up a lot. So I look at two of our great friends, the happy pair twins, David and Stephen, who are great characters, aren't they? And what I loved about them, And again, this is going to take a slightly different spin on it. They were 21 when they stopped drinking. And they'd pigeonholed their dating life into the classic dinner day or the classic moment on a Friday night where they might bump into someone, you know, after a few drinks and they've got a bit more Dutch courage.

1:21:59And they were courageous enough to stop drinking at 21. And what they realized really quickly, it just opened up the whole world to dating. They didn't have to wait to the classic dinner date or the Friday night after a few drinks. they would start to date girls that would come into their fruit and veg shop. And they'd start to connect with them and have fun with them and socialize with them at eight o 'clock in the morning. They then started to take some of those girls on dates where they'd come to them to the fruit and veg shops at 5am in the morning. It's a slightly different spin on what you're saying.

1:22:28But what they realized is it opened up this whole world of potential dating rather than it being pigeonholed into the classic dinner date or the Friday night after a few drinks. It was 24-7. And those guys, to be fair, I'm sure, had great success. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I'm going to push back a little bit, Andy. I think we could both agree that the twins, the laddies, are two of the most extroverted, charismatic people you're ever going to meet. I'm imagining the person who's not quite so extroverted, who maybe has come to rely upon a little liquid courage in order to straighten their back for a dinner date.

1:23:05You know what I'm saying? I think that's the more common thing. Like Steve and Dave are just, they're bouncing off the walls. So for the average Joe, who then might feel pressure that they have to be that charismatic and energetic, I think it's daunting. Yeah, so I think we flipped the script again. You know, maybe through that haze of alcohol, the perfect person, and I'm sort of going around in circles, but I'll come back to it. Maybe through that haze of alcohol, that perfect match for you has walked past you on numerous occasions and you didn't even notice them after those few drinks. I think coming back to the classic dinner date, again, how do you know until you try?

1:23:43And I know it can be a bit cringeworthy, but maybe showing up as authentically you is the best thing you can ever do. So that true persona, your authentic self, meets someone in their authentic self. What a great way to start a relationship rather than something that is a pretense in many ways. Again, I'm trying to get out of this dating headlock as best I can. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. It's tough. I don't know that you could come up with a really good, satisfying answer to this. I mean, I think it is awkward. So perhaps through practice and repetition, it becomes a little bit less awkward.

1:24:16But maybe the solution is to avoid those kind of dinner dates altogether and make the dates more activity-based or something like that until there's a shorthand and a familiarity and a sense of knowing somebody sufficient enough that you can sit with them across a dinner table in a more romantic setting. and not be completely anxiety riddled by the whole experience. Yeah, and I think it's back to that, me taking out the brokers. I had to think outside the box in the end, the classic drinks night was off the table. So it was yoga and it was surfing and boot camps. Maybe that's a great place to start.

1:24:52You know, forget the traditional dinner date. Go and do something completely different. And who knows, that might be the best thing. Or come up with some kind of creative cool thing that has a flair of romance kind of, you know, on top of it. Yeah, and who's to say that wouldn't be the perfect way to meet that partner of your future? What about dealing with the peer pressure, the questions about your choice? I mean, you had to deal with that with your broker community. If somebody is sort of known as the guy who we go to the pub with, and then suddenly the person doesn't want to do that, it is tricky for people to figure out how to strategically or kind of consciously tiptoe through that process so that they can stay friends with their friends and it doesn't cause just a bunch of nonsense.

1:25:39Yeah, I think, you know, there's a couple of tips around that. I think if you are that person and I was that person, so I was the larger-than-life character. So when you switch that off, it was really hard for friends and colleagues. I think they almost felt offended that I wasn't drinking. It was like, oh, you're not going to drink with me. But, you know, last week you were drinking with everyone else. So I totally understand that pressure. What I did in the end, one, was make it into a challenge because I think when I started to tell people I'm just doing 28 days off alcohol, they used to cut me some slack because in their mind, they thought, oh, they're going to get their drinking buddy back in 28 days.

1:26:11So that was like my masterstroke. That was my sort of move to get me out of many situations. But also I think if you've got that other character in your network, and we all do, right? We've all got that one ringleader in our network. Take them out in advance, i.e. contact them in advance and have that chat with them and just say, look, I'm taking a break or this is the setup. so that if you get them on side, you know what they're like. You've all got that pinnacle guy or girl in your network. If they support what you're doing, everyone else follows. As opposed to getting everybody to turn on you.

1:26:41Exactly. So if you're trying to have that conversation with them in the moment, very often they're the ones that are going to spin it around and put that social pressure on you. I want to talk a little bit about your thoughts on others who say an occasional drink is fine. The difference between being completely alcohol-free versus the, I don't know, 90 to 99 % alcohol-free. So I'm referencing, of course, my recent conversation with your former partner, Ruri, who mentioned in the course of that podcast that he occasionally partakes. And I think that comment produced a strong reaction and let's just say an animated discourse around that decision to occasionally imbibe.

1:27:28You're different. You're completely alcohol-free. But I think somebody who listened to the first conversation that we had and then listened to the one with Rory, who's trying to live an alcohol-free lifestyle, is now thinking, well, do I have to be 100 %? Like, maybe it's okay. Like, I do have to go to that bachelor party next year. Maybe I'll just drink there. Like, how do you think about that? I certainly have my own opinions on this, but I want to hear your thoughts. Yeah, so for me, why bother? why bother drinking at all this is like my personal approach i love what i do i love the life that i lead being alcohol free i want to inspire people to live this life because alcohol is a drug at the end of the day as much as we try and almost disassociate from the fact do i want to take the occasional drug do i want to moderate that drug in my life when i believe it does absolutely nothing for me it takes away my time my energy it made me put on three stone in weight It made me not as good a parent as I wanted to be or a dad that I wanted to be.

1:28:25It made me operate at 60 % of what I'm capable of. I'm never putting that back into my life. So my stance on it is, why bother? Why bring it back in any shape or form? Why have it in your life when you remove it and realize and demonstrate yourself that your life is a thousand times better without it? You can do all the things that you thought you could do with alcohol. You can date. Trust me, we'll get there in the end with that one. You can date. You can have fun. You can be more energized and upbeat. you'll be more consistent in the way that you exercise, the way you nourish your body, in your relationships.

1:28:53You'll tap into your authentic self. Why would you moderate with that thing? Why would you introduce it back into your life? This is just my personal opinion. So I'm very strongly of the opinion. I'm trying to inspire people to come on this adventure with me to such a point they built such a compelling future. Why would they put alcohol back into it in any shape or form? Especially when alcohol-free alternatives are so good now, if you want something that feels grown up, you know, you can have it in an alcohol-free form. So I'm very much of the opinion, personally, I want to go on this adventure and take as many people on it with me from the middle lane and realize actually our lives are a thousand times better without it.

1:29:30It's my personal stance. Now, I totally appreciate that everyone's different, and I totally respect and love that. You know, my wife still drinks, my brothers, my family, my friends still drink. So I think if that gets someone into the space and helps them drink less, I think that's a wonderful thing. It's never going to be my story. You're never going to hear me talking about that because I totally and passionately believe we're so much better off without alcohol in our life. But I will say in dry, so our app, and we can talk about that a bit later, we have sort of three broad camps. One of them is tactically dry.

1:30:00So someone that wants to take a tactical break. One of them is mostly dry. So mostly dry for me is someone that really lives an alcohol-free lifestyle, but for whatever reason decides on the odd occasion to have a drink. That is very different to moderating. And maybe I can just talk about that quickly because I think there's always a bit of confusion around moderation. Moderation for me suggests I really want to drink free drinks, but I'm going to use willpower to drink one or two. I think moderation is doomed to failure for most people because as we described earlier, willpower runs out. Tired, emotional, hungry.

1:30:32You suddenly drink one. And of course, when you drink two, already your prefrontal cortex is getting shut down. Well, once you drink one, alcoholic or not, Like it's game over. Like you lose the ability to moderate or control. Is this not a fair fight? Maybe some people can. I can only speak from my own experience. I know that I can. And I should say, I don't mean to interrupt you because I want you to complete your thought, but I did want to make sure that I say that I have no judgment on Rory and like you have no judgment on anybody's behavior around any of these things. I just wanted to get your perspective on that.

1:31:06And I think I agree with you. I mean, it's off the table for me. Like I can't, but I also think for a middle pather, if you do it occasionally, then you've kind of broken the seal. It's sort of like, well, I was doing this thing, but I gave myself permission to do it this time. Just doesn't that just make it a little bit easier to give yourself permission again? Yeah. For me, that would quickly turn into, you know, a landslide where I fall off a cliff. Maybe not so for many other people. But I think there is something to kind of maintaining the seal. And once you've cracked it, it starts to erode.

1:31:43And then it just gets easier and easier and easier to make more and more excuses. Yeah, and let's look at that beliefs thing in the brain. You're holding the door ajar if you're moderating. You're saying there's some perceived upside to this behavior. Therefore, the noise that's inside your mind, and I know it is because I tried to monitor it. It's a energy train because then you're thinking about it all the time. Exactly. As opposed to just putting it, it's done. I've made this decision. I don't have to think about that anymore. Slam the door shut. Slam it shut. Otherwise, so much of your mental capacity is taken up with, is this a one drink moment?

1:32:15Is this a two drink moment? I've got a wedding coming up. Is it a let loose moment? When it adds no value anyway. And it takes a bit of work to get there. I acknowledge that. But once you've done that work, why hold the door ajar? I understand how behavioral change works at a real psychological level. and I know if you shut that door, keep it shut. Why reintroduce it in any shape or form? Again, it's my personal opinion, but I have total love and respect for everyone in the space and it's important that we come at it from lots of different angles because certain people are going to resonate with certain things.

1:32:43That is my personal opinion and I'm very strong in that opinion because I just want to inspire people to get on the fun side and stay on the fun side. Why introduce it in any shape or form is my opinion. Yeah, I interrupted you though. You were on a jag about something. What was it? What were we talking about? Yeah, I was talking about moderation, my views on moderation and they are like, again, it requires willpower. So, you know, why bother? And I think most people's view of moderation is completely warped. So my view of moderation when I was drinking was two or three drinks. Two or three drinks in a row is technically binge drinking.

1:33:14Do you know what I mean? So my moderation bar was set at the level of binge drinking. And I think most people's moderation bar is, and of course, moderation always remains as one or two drinks and then it becomes seven because as you described, right, you're ingesting this drug and then your prefrontal cortex is offline. So you haven't got that emotional and behavioral control. Two becomes three, becomes four, becomes more. You're back to square one. So for me, again, just to belabor that point a little bit, why bother? I agree with your sentiment about wanting to inspire people by making this lifestyle attractive and being more of a magnet.

1:33:49You don't want to be the smarmy Puritan who's pointing fingers at people. Like nobody wants that person. But for the person who's newly alcohol-free, how do they live with the people that they care about without alienating them or making them feel like they are being judged? Because people do get defensive. You told the story earlier, oh, you're not drinking with me anymore. Like, you don't have to do anything to provoke that response in another person. So how does somebody who's less skilled and brand new to this, what are some tools they can use to kind of ease that aspect of all of it? Yeah, and I think it's to acknowledge that it is a solo journey.

1:34:25Back to the, and it's important, we did that earlier, the maps of the world. So through that individual's map of the world, it makes perfect sense for them to take a break from alcohol. But bearing in mind your friends and peers have got different maps, so it might not make any sense for them. So they're just seeing the world differently. So I think the really important thing to do, and what's been incredible since we last got together, is the rise of the alcohol-free influencer, which wasn't really a thing so much. Of course, there's been recovery community and sober community for so long. But now this sort of alcohol-free influencer, and I think the communities and groups that are available to people are incredible now.

1:35:00And I think it is such a solo mission. It's such a solo choice. I think for most people will find that if they're courageous enough to come on this alcohol-free adventure, most people they know and love are not on that adventure. Therefore, connecting with groups, and you felt the power of this through 12-step, connecting with online groups now is unbelievable. You know, we've got our groups at Dry, but there's many other unbelievable groups and communities out there in all shapes and sizes. There's running groups. AF Runners is a great group where people come together for the love of running.

1:35:27You've got the incredible podcast over the influence that people have got community around. You've got our dry community. I think that's really important. I think it's really important to have a community of people that get you, that understand you, that you can turn to. There's power in your pocket in those moments of tension, because I think it is a really hard thing to do in the world. I'm going to own that for everyone. But it's to appreciate it's a solo mission. And if it's your choice, it's a great choice for you. And I also think the best thing you can ever do for your loved ones is show up and shine as optimally you.

1:35:57And I really believe it. Alcohol is like removing kryptonite from your backpack when you go alcohol free. So for me, that's the greatest gift you can give your family. I think it's getting easier, though. There has been a real cultural paradigm shift. I think I talked about this with Rory, but last year, Andrew Huberman's most popular podcast was the one he did on alcohol. Alcohol, I think it was one of the most listened to podcasts of the year on the entire Apple podcast platform. That says a lot. Yeah, I think that's the movement. It makes the lifestyle cool, like the protocol. A lot of young people's perception on it has really dramatically shifted.

1:36:32So it's just not what it was, even since you were here last time. It's happening. It's happening. All what I dreamt of 10 years ago when no one got it 10 years ago. They didn't really understand the middle lane. Like you said, it was very black and white. I really think fast forward five years, I think alcohol will be like smoking. People will still do it. They'll always do it. But I think it will be so less prevalent in our society. That's a bold statement. Yeah, I'm sticking with it. I'm sticking with it. The last real big scenario I wanted to throw at you is also probably a common one, which is the person who's like, okay, I'm going to do this, but they're in a relationship.

1:37:04They have a partner, a wife, a husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, who's not necessarily enthusiastic about this, still likes to drink, maybe likes to go out and party from time to time, perhaps less than supportive. Yeah, and that's really hard because I think that's the case for most people in truth. I think it's one of the partner. Again, their map of the world changes and their partner's map is very different. So that whole map analogy is really important. First and foremost, is to have empathy for your other partner because they're not seeing the world the same as you. So you've reached that point for your past history and your beliefs and your experiences with alcohol, where your map has changed to such a point that you want to change your relationship with it.

1:37:41But you have to appreciate that your partner lives a different life. They're beautifully unique. They've got their own map of the world and their map of the world is probably not telling them to take a break from alcohol at the moment. So I think instantly get some empathy. I think it's really important to bring that energy to the relationship. Appreciate that it is your solo mission. And also a little bit like what I just said earlier, the greatest gift I think you can give your loved ones is you authentically vibrant and energized and happy and healthy. and if removing alcohol and I believe it will do this for everyone that's a middle lane drinker helps you become more vibrant and energized and healthier and happier that's a beautiful gift to your partner but you have to stand strong with that because it's tough you know when your loved ones or your role models are not supportive but also appreciate the fact that I think most of them will come around and I've seen that in my own life you know my best friends my wife they're my biggest supporters in this now yet at one point when I first made this decision they were all in shock like what's he doing?

1:38:36Whereas they will come around. So I think it's that empathy piece. I think it's that vibrancy piece and trust the process. The greatest gift you can give them is your radiant self. Tell me a little bit more about the Dry app. It's Dry, D-R-Y-Y. Two Ys on the Dry. On the Dry. Extra Y on the Dry. Extra Y on the Dry. This is really cool. So this came out of one of the guys that I trained as a coach, a guy called Matt Pink. He's a better life guy on Instagram. He's a great guy. He's in fashion. So you'll see Dry. It looks incredible. Yeah, I played around with it. It's cool. Oh, the reason it looks great is because I'm not involved in it.

1:39:09In any of the design is the truth. Matt does that. He's got that design background. And he kept coming up with all these different collaborations for me and him. And I just didn't have the time. And then we happened to go to Dublin. We were going for a sea swim with the Happy Pear guys. In March, the coldest time of the year. It's not a good idea. God bless you. But we had this beautiful sunny day. And we sat in Dublin before we went. And it was blue skies. And we sat in this lovely restaurant just outside the Westbury Hotel. And Matt said, I've got this idea. And he got a piece of paper and he wrote D-R-Y-Y.

1:39:42And I was like, that looks cool. He said, the first why, he pointed to the first why and said, your why, you want to transform the world's relationship with alcohol. My why, I want to build a lifestyle brand that reaches millions of people. What do you think? I was like, yeah, you had me at why. So we built this thing, which is built around an app, but it's an online, offline community. It's incredible. It's completely free to download. And I think what I've been doing for the last 10, 12 years is really helping a lot of people in the space build entrepreneurial ideas that do good in the world and make them economical because it's really hard to do, especially in a caring space that a lot of people are around alcohol or any giving profession for that.

1:40:17So what we've done with Dry, which I really like, I think it's skillful, it's totally free. Every single day, there's a live content in there. So I go live in there every Tuesday at 7.30am. Not ideal for the time difference here, but every day there's a live person in there. So one of our incredible life members or Matt Pink or Crystal Day So it's all free. It's a live app and you get the sense of community. But then we've built in that lovely stepping stone for those that want a bit more. If they want to get in a room and train with myself and Matt in a coaching style on a Zoom, we have groups called Get Dry, which help people get dry.

1:40:48And then we have a lot of self-development. So it's like a self-development course within it, all live content, which is really important to me because a lot of the time people use recorded content. It just doesn't have that impact. I wanted to create an aspirational, inspirational space where people are excited to be part of Dry. Matt's done a brilliant job with the merch. People are wearing the hoodies, the hats. We've even got Dry Fest. Yeah, I saw that. There's these real world IRL events. Yeah, so this is Dry Fest. I think it's the world's first alcohol-free festival. It's probably not. It's like the world's oldest Irish pub.

1:41:22There's like about 50 of them. But on June 22nd this year, we've got in Glastonbury, not the Glastonbury, it's in Glastonbury, but we've got a full festival that's an alcohol-free festival, dry fest is happening in a big way. Yeah. So all of these wonderful things of, you know, and within that community, we've got such a diverse mix. We've got a guy in there called Eamon. He's 76, Irish guy. He stopped drinking at 75. And then we've got Abby, who's a student, who's 20. You've got this eclectic mix of these incredible people coming together just to change their relationship with alcohol. And in doing so, transform their lives and the lives of their families.

1:41:58And I'm eternally grateful for it. And it's something that I believe has got the power to reach hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. Given what you just shared about shutting the door and keeping it shut, then why do you have this sort of moderation module on the app then? So we don't have a moderation module. We've just broadened it to tactically dry, mostly dry and fully dry like myself. Because I think what we appreciate is that lots of people look at this very differently. And I tell you what actually woke me up to that was even plant-based, the plant-based movement. So I was fully plant-based for a long while.

1:42:31And then I started to change that nutrition slightly. And I felt slightly alienated. I didn't know where I stood, do you know what I mean? And a lot of people have come to me and said, look, I still drink on occasion. I live a very alcohol-free lifestyle. I still drink very occasionally. Can I be part of this or not? So I think Matt was quite passionate about that, that we've broadened it for people to be in that space because bearing in mind this is the middle lane but my personal view and everything that anyone ever gets from me is slam the door and i think what happens a lot of people might show up with that mostly approach or tactical approach but my vision personally is i'm just trying to inspire everyone to shut the door to shut the door so i view if they stay with me for long enough more of them will shut the door so we just broaden the net to bring them in we don't coach around that it's not an aspirational goal because i don't think it is an aspirational goal personally.

1:43:23Understood. That's cool. Let's talk about the documentary. Oh, yeah. Walk me through what this is all about. I think like all these things, it was never meant to be a thing. What actually happened, John Hyatt, who's our director, he made a great documentary called Screened Out. Screened Out's about phone usage in children. This got picked up by Jamie Raskin, senator, and showed to Congress. And on the back of that documentary, which was so powerful, they passed a bill that donates now $18 million a year to research phone usage and our children. Wow. So John went on to make his next documentary all about health and well-being and went around the world to speak to all the gurus on diet and nutrition.

1:44:01And during that period, took a break from alcohol. He watched my TED Talks. I have a TED Talk, The Limitless Pill. Listened to this podcast, was inspired, took a break from alcohol, middle lane drinker, all the transformation we spoke about, lost weight, got fitter, got faster, got into the editing room for this doc on health and nutrition, not one person mentioned alcohol. And he was like, this is nuts. I've just had this personal amazing experience around alcohol. No one's talking about it. He got in touch with me and said, could you be the voice of alcohol-free in the doc? I said, of course.

1:44:31We batted backwards and forwards. And I said, I think there's a place for a Game Changers documentary in the alcohol-free space. And John came back and said, you are right it doesn't exist why isn't there one and we've been batting that backwards and forwards now for the best part of 18 months we're making it happen we filmed the sizzle this is me getting all la on myself i didn't know what sizzle was i thought that was part of a sausage but we did that in uh june which was great we've already interviewed so many incredible people we're now here filming for the full week and it's something that's going to be really exciting so the documentary effectively is going to be about a celebration of all things alcohol free which is so important to me i want it to be aspirational and inspirational It's not about telling people off.

1:45:12But equally, I've started to lift the rocks now and started to look under some of the things such as what a big alcohol doing in terms of our lobbying and our governments. How are our governments dictating the way that we behave around alcohol? And every rock I lift, I'm finding a scandal, a conspiracy. It's turning that... That's the what the health model, right? Yeah, it's going on this new twist. You turn it into an intrigue like treasure hunt of uncovering all the nefarious bad actors who are, you know, keeping us in the dark about the truth. Exactly, as well as inspiring people to come to the fun side of the island.

1:45:46So I think with that nice combination, we've got something really, really powerful coming up. And just on that note, if I may even use this as an opportunity, anyone listening that's an actor, you know, has got a platform, has got a voice that would like to be part of this. It's actively in production as we speak, which is incredibly cool, which we're so excited about that we want people to collaborate with investors. We want to make this a huge thing. We want to make it like a game changer. You're self-funding or you're raising money through like a GoFundMe platform? As a Kickstarter, but it will be investor funded or, you know, a stream funded, depending.

1:46:18So you're just bootstrapping it right now. Just to turn what is an idea into real action. And on that note, a massive thank you to all those who have contributed to our GoFundMe. And that's important to me because I want people to feel that they're a part of this. I want to build community around it. We're going to go and change the world together. So hopefully you'll be able to put a link to the GoFundMe in the show notes. No doubt. It'd be great if people could get involved. And let's go and change the world together. Let's go and inspire people and create something that's really inspirational as well as lifting a few of those rocks to add a bit of spice to the adventure.

1:46:48I'm going to sit for this documentary tomorrow. Yeah, that's right. So this is happening. Who else have you met with since you've been in town? I'm not allowed to say. But I will reveal that you're on it. That's the big reveal. We can reveal that. Yeah, exactly. We've interviewed loads of incredible people. Loads of people that people will know very well and lots of people that people are unaware of. But really, again, a celebration of the alcohol-free community as well as let's dig around a little bit and then people like yourself that have got an incredible voice to share. So I think between the people that have been involved in already, we've got a real potential to inspire a lot of people.

1:47:22I think that would be something really cool. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you want to get across in terms of the alcohol-free lifestyle? Like, what do people really need to understand about the benefits of this that we haven't already covered? I think it's that jar analogy. You know, you can't read the label when you're inside the jar. We've got 2 billion people inside the jar that are middle lane drinkers. So for anyone listening, imagine if everything that I've just said is true for you. You're going to be fitter, faster, healthier. You know, more time, more energy. You know, maybe you'll be better at your job.

1:47:56Maybe you'll be an even better parent, an even better partner. Imagine if some of those wins are waiting for you. You'll never know unless you try. So why not just take a break and have a little look for yourself? And if you feel marginally healthier, fitter, faster, and all these incredible things, what a beautiful learn that is. Maybe you'll come spend some more time on the fun side of the island with me and we'll slam that door and we'll go on a beautiful adventure. That is alcohol-free. In The Secret Society, we say if you try that and you want to go back, we will happily refund you your misery.

1:48:30You haven't heard that one before? No, that's beautiful. That makes it for me. That says so much. And that's what it's about. It's not about wagging the finger or telling people off. And I think you do that beautifully. And hopefully I do that well. I just want to inspire people and go, come on, have a little look. See what it's like for you. If you feel better for it, what a beautiful learn that is. And you might find that actually the alcohol-free lifestyle gives you everything that alcohol promised. I think that's the secret. Beautifully put, man. Thank you for coming and sharing with me today.

1:49:00We did it. Thank you for having me again, Rich. This is incredible. You have been such a beacon of inspiration for so many people. I personally know countless people who have contacted me and said that they have given up alcohol as a result of the message you shared last time. So I just want to personally thank you. And on behalf of those people, you've made a really indelible and significant impact on the world. If it all ended here, job well done, dude. I know you have a bigger mission and many more things that you want to do, but I just want to acknowledge that you are a change agent. You really have done well for the world.

1:49:39So thank you for that. And on behalf of all the listeners and the watchers, it's great to see you again. And I'm at your service, man. If there's anything I can do to help advance what you're trying to do, I hope you consider me a friend and an ally. You are, Rich. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Absolutely. You mentioned if there's any people out there who want to help you out with the doc, how would those people get in touch with you? I think through, I'm sure we'll share some links, Instagram, any of these things, whatever you are, you know, in terms of, you know, a movie star, you've got a platform, one of the streaming agents, get in touch.

1:50:11Let's go and change the world together. All right, man. It'll be interesting to see what the incoming is. Yeah. Check in. I'll keep you posted. Well, you'll come back when the movie's done and we'll talk about it. Yeah, exactly. All right. Thanks, my friend. Love you, buddy. Cheers. Peace. Thanks.

1:50:54my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com.

1:51:42Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.