Beyond Eat, Pray, Love: Elizabeth Gilbert's Raw Truth About Addiction, Codependency & The Awakening That Saved Her Life

27:41You just said that so well. And that's exactly it. And I remember when she was flaming out and my life was tanking, and I was so trapped in this nightmare, like suddenly this beautiful love story turned into Sid and Nancy. I'm like, what's going on? How is my house? Literally tying her off and shooting her is crazy. Crazy. How am I going down to Chinatown to get clean needles? How am I, like the lady who wrote Eat, Pray, Love, like taking - This is like the A24, you know, like - Thousands of dollars out of my ATM to buy cocaine from teenagers in the East Village for my partner so that she'll love me.

28:19Like, how am I in this? You know, I mean, and how am I in this is I think, I don't think it's possible for anybody to go through their earth school curriculum without having multiple occasions of how am I in this? Like, how did I end up? I thought this was a parachute, but it's a backpack full of bricks. Like, you know, like what's happening? Like, how am I? And I remember at that time just being so bewildered. Like, how is this happening? And I went for, I remember going for a walk and leaving her in this like cloud of cigarette smoke and drugs in our apartment and walking down the street in New York.

28:54And I was like, I need to pray, I need to pray, I need to pray. and I don't think I've ever told this story before but you just spurted in me which is the weirdest prayer came out of me I was on like East 9th Street broad daylight and I was like and before I could even like check the words the words came out make it worse like I said to God like make it worse whatever this thing is you're doing to my life this like sledgehammer that you've taken to my life I don't get it I don't I still don't get what this is. I know this has got to be part of an earth school curriculum, but all I see is like useless suffering and pain.

29:34So don't be easy on me. If there's something that you're trying to show me, hammer it harder, like destroy me so that I can see this. Cause there's obviously something I can't see yet. And it did get worse and I still couldn't see it. You know, It took a year after she died for me to finally be like, oh. And it took somebody sitting me down and 12-stepping me, essentially, and just saying, I've watched you do this for 35 years. And there's a room for this, and I think you're not well. And I'll go with you to a meeting. And I was like, me a meeting? I'm not the drug addict. Yeah, it's so interesting.

30:17the midst of it and can't see it for what it is, which I think gets to that other earlier point about like, it's tough to notice. And until you have some education into what this thing actually is for you to be able to identify it. Yeah. Paint the picture of this relationship with Rhea, like how it began and kind of where it ended up. So people understand, you know, kind of the trajectory. It was a very slow burn. It was like, she was an acquaintance and then she was a neighbor and then she was a friend and then she was a close friend and then she was my best friend. And then there was a moment I reached where I was like, oh, she's indispensable.

30:56Like I saw the impact that she had on me, that her incredibly grounding, reassuring, and strong presence had on me. So I'm somebody who has always had a very deep fear of people and a fear of the unpredictability of people. And like anyone can go off at any moment. There's reasons that I have this fear, but like folks is crazy here, you know, like, and my job that I took on from earliest childhood was like vigilance, you know, like vigil, like you must be vigilant. You must never, never rest because these people are capable of anything. So read the room, feel the room. I can read a face from a hundred yards.

31:37I can feel, I can sit in a house with 10 people in different rooms and I can tell you what everyone is feeling. Like it's essential for me to know and monitor and track the moods and the sensations of everyone in the room for my own safety. This is how I always felt. You grew up in an alcoholic household. I grew up in an alcoholic influenced house, you know, and I grew up with children of alcoholics and deep alcoholic damage multiple generations down the line on both sides of the family. So I'm nervous and I think, and nervous is my baseline. So Rhea shows up and she's not nervous. And whatever insanity anybody brings, She'd lived on the streets.

32:14She'd been in Rikers Island. She'd been in insane asylums. She'd like been in the Tompkins Square riots. Like she could handle everybody and everything in this seemingly effortless jujitsu way. And whatever crazy anybody brought, she just met it with this sort of clear eyed, like, why are you being crazy, man? And like, just she was like, she could just top out. She was like the calm dog in the herd of like in the pack of dogs who all the other dogs laid down when Rhea walked in. So when I saw what that did to my nervous system, I experienced for the first time in my life when she was in the room this feeling of absolute safety.

32:50And once I experienced that and externalized that feeling of safety where you are the provider of that, you can't leave now. Because otherwise I have to go back to the anxiety field that I live in all the time. And that began my addiction to her. and it starts with hey i you can you can stay rent-free in my house you know you can do like i have a spot for you yeah like all these sort of moves that you're making unconsciously to bring her closer and make yourself indispensable exactly i will make myself indispensable to you because you have become indispensable to me none of this was above the level of consciousness and none of this was ever spoken, right?

33:33This was like, this is the secret operating system that I've got underneath me that's hustling to make sure that my needs are met because I can't meet them.

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36:51With this hypervigilance and this sense that the world is not a safe place to encounter somebody who is completely unafraid, is insanely truthful in every regard, has no care for other people's opinions. Like there's something intoxicating about being in the presence of someone who feels that liberated when you're so guarded and so afraid to be yourself and trying to figure out which mask you have to wear in which context, which is exhausting, right? And then here's this person who doesn't have any of that. How is that possible, right? And you're the successful one, and she's the hairdresser who's weathered hardship and, you know, is not really living in the same socioeconomic, you know, sort of strata as you are and operating in a very different world.

37:38Yeah. So I was like, I'll bring you up to my strata, which is where you've always wanted to be. And she pulls, instead she pulls you down. We did a little of both. A little, yeah, yeah. We did a little of both, you know? I mean, she did write an incredible memoir. You guys did a tour together, right? And I helped her get it published. Like there were things I was doing for her. I mean, I'm very careful in the book to say there's two things I don't want to do. I don't want to pathologize every single instance of this relationship. And I also don't want to idealize. So that's also why it took me so long to unthread this book.

38:09Like, where's the truth here that's somewhere between pathology and idealization? Because we loved each other a lot and we cared for each other a lot. That comes across very clearly. And we helped each other a lot. And I think you do an excellent job of showing, like, listen, like this was an incredible person who had insane gifts, who was so courageous and unafraid and capable. And cool. Was this person that everyone wanted to hang. There are all these amazing qualities, right? And also this, you know, self-destructive thing inside of her. And this was a person and here's what I could. And so once I'm blinded by need, now I cannot see the full truth of you.

38:50Because once I've idealized you and pedestalized you and decided that you're my solution and that you're my drug and you're the reason I don't have to suffer anymore, it's imperative that you not have feet of clay. You can't. I mean, this is a child's idealization of an adult. It's like you are my, I mean, I made her into my higher power. Like, absolutely. I was like, in any circumstance where I would now go to what I call my higher power, where I would now get silent and pray and meditate and ask source, what should I do? I called Ray and said, what should I do? and she would tell me great advice most of the time about what to do but what I wasn't seeing through that haze of idealization was for instance this was somebody who had 13 years sober I mean this was somebody who was like a hard low bottom drug addict like living on a park bench with a needle in her arm drug addict multiple stays in jails like hard hard hard drug addict who finally found recovery in 12 step and whose ego decided after a certain amount of time and 12 steps she didn't need it anymore and decided that she didn't need to go to the rooms anymore and announced to me and to the world, I am no longer an addict.

40:02I've cured myself of my addiction because I'm Raya fucking Elias. But the best part is that she says, she says like, I wanna start drinking wine because my friends are pressuring. It's like, she put it on her friends. Her family. She said they had an intervention. My friends had a, I don't even know if this is true. I doubt that it is. We need you to start drinking wine. We need you to start drinking a wine because it's uncomfortable for us when we're at the table drinking and you're not. And she's telling me this and she's saying, I'm going to start drinking again. Oh, and by the way, don't tell any of my friends in 12 step because they're going to be really upset.

40:32So this is going to be our little secret. This from the woman who taught me the phrase, we're only as sick as our secrets, right? So she comes to me and says like, I want to start drinking. It's not a big deal. Alcohol is not a problem for me. I'm a heroin addict, not an alcoholic. Don't tell anyone. and I also kind of hate alcohol. And I was like, okay. And because I had created a construct in which everything she did was right, strong, powerful, and cool, I'm like, Rhea's so cool. Rhea's so cool. She's the addict who can drink. So this is the kind of stuff that when you give your power away and you give your perspective away and you give your wisdom away, what you're left with is just, I have to go along with whatever you say, because I've fully given you my power.

41:17I don't have the power to be like, hang on, what? Your friends had a reverse intervention and they told you they want you to start drinking? That doesn't even make sense. Yeah. It collapses on top of itself immediately. Instead, I'm like, let's get a bottle of wine. And so I can see now that she was slipping back into losing herself at the same time that I was losing myself into her. So of course the end game was a disaster. I'm curious around your response now that you've had time to reflect on it when she gets diagnosed with cancer, which that was like 2016. Like in a perverse way, that is almost your opportunity to really lock it in because now she really can be dependent upon you.

42:10I will take care of your every need. Yeah. And I remember in the horror of the diagnosis and some things happened very quickly. There's that famous line in F. Scott Fitzgerald about first slowly, then quickly. It's been used a million times, but that's often how benders go. You know, like first she sort of slowly drank Amistar bitters and then she sort of slowly drank wine and then she started smoking cigarettes again. And then she started doing mushrooms and ayahuasca and MDMA again. And then it's like, oh, we might as well have a little cocaine, you know, and then it just like builds and builds and builds.

42:41But the slow love story that I was having with her escalated immediately upon that announcement that she had six months to live. I'd been hiding that love for her from me, from her and from my husband up until that point. But the thought that she was going to die very quickly was the energizing excuse that was needed for me to finally say this thing that I hadn't been saying for years, which is this, I am in love with this person. And I left my marriage to go to be with her. And I remember even in the horror of I'm losing the foundational person in my life, in the first weeks of her diagnosis, I remember showing up at her apartment with my suitcase and saying, I'm not going anywhere.

43:26I mean, like a threat. When I see it now, it's kind of a threatening thing to say to somebody. I didn't say, do you want me to stay? I just said, I'm not going anywhere. and for somebody who can't take care of herself and gets her worth and value and esteem from what I can give to others and then have reflected back to me about my value from what I'm giving, this is a perfect storm because the feeling I had was one of utter, I remember this deep calm where I was like, now I know what I'm here for. My purpose on earth is clear. I am here to serve res every need. I don't have to have an identity anymore.

44:03I don't have to have any needs. I can completely abdicate responsibility for myself. No one would blame me for it. I mean, I'm being heroic. I'm showing up for somebody who's dying. Yeah, that's the added bonus. Like, look what a good person I am. I'm an angel. I'm so committed to this other person. Which is what I've always wanted to be. So it's this weird thing because on the one hand, there's this liberation from the marriage that wasn't working. Like you were able to stand up and speak your truth and there's a freeing, very healthy, you know, kind of piece to that, but only so that you could entrap yourself in, you know, in a situation and kind of indulge this, you know, addictive tendency.

44:44Yeah. One of my friends in the rooms, she and I have our sort of daily kind of test of sobriety. sobriety is kind of easy to chart when you're a substance addict like you're either using you're either drinking it's hard to know when you've hard to know so we're like so i have a couple kind of markers that i can use so one one definition i love of relapse is that in all the relationship programs of 12-step is relapse is returning to your original role in the family system so good right so if i'm the caregiver if i'm the one who's got to make everyone happy if I'm the one who has to take care of all the grownups, if I'm the golden child, like that's a relapse for me.

45:25But another way that we sort of test relapse is no abandonment of self. That's our, that's this friend and I, that's our motto, like no abandonment of self. So at the end of the day, like, was there anywhere in this day where I said yes, when I meant no, like when my body said no, but my mouth said yes, where I people pleased my way through some sort of situation in order to gain love approval, validation, and acceptance where I infantilized myself because I was in a really difficult situation and I didn't want to face it. And I try to make someone else do it. It's like, no, you be the grownup and you do this thing because I can't, I don't want to.

46:02So those are sort of these markers, but handing over of the power of your own life force to pour into somebody else is what I used to call love and what I thought was love. And now when I, when I see it, there's a sign, Rhea was a songwriter and a musician and we used to write music together. And there was a song I wrote for her that at the time that I wrote it, I'm like, this song is so beautiful and it's so romantic and it encapsulates completely this story. And she wrote the music for it and she sang it and performed it. I was like, this is so great. And one of the lines in it, in my voice at her was, I'm just trying to give you a home.

46:39my body and life are your own right it's like this complete and in our culture we actually kind of like reward that as what a beautiful romantic story but when i hear those lyrics now i'm like yikes like my body is yours like my life is yours my money is yours my energy is yours i'm your home where's mine if i'm making my whole existence into your home there's no one home here, you know? And I see that now and I'm like, my little cousin, when she was little, used to have a little seal and we used to play this game where the seal was trapped and we would just say, help, help, I'm trapped in kelp.

47:20And I look at that now and I'm like, help, help, I'm trapped in kelp. Like, what am I doing? And I'm calling that love and I'm calling that friendship and I'm calling that nobility and sacrifice. But what it also actually is, this complete and total abandonment of self. How much self-awareness did you have prior to going into the program around this? Like, presumably, I mean, you're the, you pray love person, right? Like you're, you're in touch with your, your past and your trauma, you know, there's therapy, there's all these other things that you're doing that I would imagine gave you a glimpse of some of these patterns and habits prior to, you know, kind of all the chaos that ensued later.

48:02And why was that not enough? Addict to addict, you know. I'm not setting you up here. You have a disease. You know, addicts have a disease that lies to them and says you don't have a disease, right? So the first person we fool is ourselves, right? So there's like a section of Eat, Pray, Love that I quote in this new book where I describe my addictive tendencies. And that was 20 years ago. Like I could have written a doctoral thesis by the time I was 30 called why I act like this. Like I totally know the psychological reasons why I act like this. It didn't stop me from acting like that, right? Like what they say in the room is discovery is not recovery.

48:37Like knowing why something is - Self-awareness will avail you nothing. Of nothing, right? Like I was an expert on my dysfunction. And every single time I was like, this isn't that though. Even though it matches up completely with the fingerprint of what I always do, I'm not doing it. In the same way that Rhea was like, the drinking that I'm doing isn't a problem. It's not a substance. Drinking and drugs are not the same thing. I'm an addict, but I can drink. It's not okay. And I was like, all right. And she was like, all right. She's so honest about everything else. She's so candid. She's not hiding it.

49:13She's telling everyone she's doing it right. So I have infinite capacity to be a PR agent for my own bullshit. You know, and I have to, I mean, addicts, one of the things I write in the book is that addicts have to lie. Addicts have to live double lives because they can't, until you find recovery, you can't live without the thing that you're using. And so you've got to create these incredibly elaborate sort of narratives to pretend that you're not doing what is so obvious that you're doing. I mean, Rea said to me during her spiral, when I confronted her, since when is cocaine addictive. She looked me in the eye.

49:52She looked me in the eye with these like pupils like this. And she's like, since when is cocaine even? She's like twitching. And I'm like, what did you just say? And she said, it never used to be back in my day. And I'm like, you're amazing. Addicts are amazing. We will say anything. And I believe that if you'd hooked her up to a lie detector test at that point, she would have believed what she was saying. Right. Of course. Since when is cocaine It's one of my favorite lines I've ever heard in my entire life. God bless her and me. So I was doing precisely what I have done a million times. I was leaving someone to go be with someone else, which is my pattern, while at the same time saying, it's not like that this time, even though it 100 % is.

50:35Had you ever not been in a relationship? Did you just go, you were just overlapping them all along from the get go? Stacked like cordwood. Yeah. One after another. I mean, I started when I was 15. I would have started a lot earlier if I was prettier. Like I was trying to do it earlier. But, you know, it wasn't until I got over my like ugly duckling thing that I could make it work. You just can't not be in a relationship. Can't. And there was a part of me that always knew that I was missing, I was robbing myself of something. I knew, I knew that it's important to learn how to be with yourself and to learn how to be alone.

51:10So the only time I didn't do it, there was like a nine, 10 month period during the Eat, Pray, Love journey when I didn't do it. But then I met somebody who was so loving. Yeah. You know, who was so attentive and so loving and so dialed into me. And I was like, I can't deny myself this. Like this person's so good to me and so kind to me. This is why it's such an innately human story. Like you go on this journey with Eat, Pray, Love and you meet your maker and probe the depths of your soul trying to find these answers. You return, you meet this man, you get married and you write this book and it's this smash sensation success.

51:51And then you kind of slowly, you know, slink back into self-will and old habits. Slink is such a good word for it. And then you're just kind of doing your thing and you're like, it's fine, right? Yeah. And you need this comet to collide with your planet in order to wake up and realize like, oh, the work wasn't done when I left Bali. Like there's still more that I have to do that I have to look at. What is it about needing these incredibly painful moments in order to get us to awaken to ourselves and make those changes that are obvious to everyone else except ourselves? It's such an intractable human problem.

52:29I know. It's adorable. We're so cute. we're so cute and hopeless and adorable and loved. And when I bring that up with my, what I call God, you know, and I want to be really careful when I use the word God that there's a Rob Bell line that I love where he was always like, whatever God you don't believe in, I also don't believe in that God. So we're good. Any God trauma that anybody has, but it's a word I use for the mystery that doesn't have any other word that I do feel loves me and wants me to be okay. And the way that it speaks to me is like, oh honey, we tried as gently as we could to get your attention about this.

53:07Like we tried. Right, there were a lot of knocks before it got loud. If we could have done this without sending the comment. But why can't we just heed that gentle knock? Because you can't see what you can't see. And I think when you're somebody who's accustomed to being very powerful, which is something like there's another element of me where I'm like, I'm the manifester. Like I can create things. Like I can make, like I can do stuff in the world. I'm a person who can do stuff very successfully. I'm accustomed to being successful. Raya was accustomed to being powerful. She was accustomed to walking into the room and being the effortless alpha in every room that she walked into.

53:46Why the hell could she not manage a little bit of cocaine? Like why the hell could she not manage a little bit of alcohol? It's like, this is her Achilles heel, right? Like I'm accustomed to manifesting beautiful things. so why can't I have a normal relationship like a normal person and the thing that I find so touching and that I come back to again and again about addiction that I find so sweet about us I say us as addicts of all sorts is like because you can't like there are certain things that I can't do that other people can do and I just know that now and I hope I don't forget that But like other people can do things that I can't do.

54:26I have a friend who's a ferocious alcoholic and we were at a wedding together and somebody handed her a glass of a flute of champagne to make the wedding toast. And she just went like, you know, it says in the big book of AA, we recoil as if from a hot flame, right? And, you know, she's calling nine years sober. And she just was like, you know, she just like backed up from this thing. And the person was like, it's just for the photo. Like you can surely hold a flute of champagne safely in your hand. you're not going to drink it. And she just said, I cannot do things that other normal people can do.

54:57Like, this is what I have to know about myself. In this regard, I am not normal. And I think what I was doing for my entire relationship history was trying to like, I wrote a whole book about marriage, trying to figure out how do I contain this thing? How do I do this successfully? How do I be normal? And I'm not. And that's lovely. I'm just not. This is how it is. And that That abnormality that brought so much pain and suffering and shame and degradation is also my path to God. Right. Because it's where my power ends. And if I were as good at relationships as I am at everything else, I wouldn't need a God.

55:36I'd just be out here giving seminars. I mean, it would find you in some other way. You know, and then, you know, I'm so good at life. Here's what's great. Here's what's great. You're cruising around, you know, America doing these workshops with Rob Bell on creativity. You know, I adore Rob. Like what a wonderful human being. And the two of you together, it's like a supernova. It's like an amazing energy. These two human beings who have this spiritual connection and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that creativity is something divine. It's something that we can court and make ourselves available to flow through us, but it is not something that is generated inside of us.

56:21And it descends upon us when we open the portal or in a place of ease and allowing. Like, you know, all of that, like, you're the best at this. There is no question that you are tapped into something very real and deeply spiritual. And yet you're walking around with this God-sized hole in your soul, determined to fill it with externalities. What applies to creativity doesn't apply to relationships. You have compartmentalized your spirituality. And, you know, God came down and gave you a reckoning and said, you're like surrender is half-baked, right? Like you have it for this. You're very clear about that.

57:08You helped all these people and you've been able to, you know, build this beautiful, creative, inspirational life in this one area. and yet you can't seem to understand that you need to apply it, not just to this other area that's going sideways, but to everything. And I'm curious, like, where's Rob Bell in this? Is he going, hey Liz, is he seeing this? Is he not seeing this? Like, where's the blind spot? Oh, for me, like calling me out or being like, as your friend? Not for him necessarily, but it's like the blind spot is what's interesting because we all have them. Like, I'm not like judging you.

57:44I have a million of them. You know what I mean? It's like, we think we've got it figured out. I feel like you just, I don't feel judged. I feel the delicious, velvety softness I always feel in the truth. You know what I mean? Like that's just what you just said is true. Like I'm like, yep, that you just, what that guy said. And so, yeah, Earth School says, we've got another class for you, right? Right, right. We hate to do this, honey. And we'll do it as gently as we can, but here we go. I don't think the definition of a blind spot is that you can't see it. You know, I mean, that's where the beautiful human quality of mercy has to come in.

58:24Not instead of like, how could you not see this? It's like, of course you can't see this. Like, of course, of course you can't. Like, I feel the only compassionate way to look at an addict is not like, why do you keep doing this? But like, why in the world wouldn't you? you know like why in the world wouldn't you and nothing can save me but a miracle like psychology can't save me like my own massive creativity I mean how many times did I say precisely what you just said Rich like I wish I could be in relationship with people the way I am in relationship with creativity it's so clear to me how this works in creativity it's so effortless It's so beautiful.

59:06It's so warm. It's so soft. It's so free. There's no stakes. I've got no attachment to the outcome. I can, this just happened a couple of years ago. I can write, like spend four years, write a book. Yeah, you wrote this novel and then - And then just be like, oh, okay. And just not publish it and not lose a minute of sleep over it, right? That was insane. I remember talking to Adam about that. I was like, she met, like what was the interior experience of that? Mellow. But I know you were like, it's cool. It was mellow. It was kind of like, there'll be another one. Because you were doing it for the love of doing it in the process.

59:33But I can't, that level of detachment, that level of non-attachment to outcome, I have never been able to do that with a person. You know, it's just like once I feel that they have something that I need, like all addicts, you can't take it away from me until it's got claw marks in it. So that's my thing. That's what I came here in this lifetime to address. And that's what I'm doing to the best of my capacity. With the help of a very amused God, you know, who's like, all right, honey, how many more times do you want to do this? You done yet? If you're done yet, come with me. If you're not done, go try it again.

1:00:16Like, go try it again.

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1:03:01When you came into the program, were you open-hearted about it and willing to do the work? or were you fighting it and trying to convince yourself that you didn't fit? Which time when I came into the program? I don't know. Well, you tell me. When I came into the program the first time, I came as a spectator. And so a friend 12-stepped me and was like, you got to go check this out. And I went and I checked it out and I was like, these people are super sick. You know, like these people are really not well. I'm not nearly as fucked up as these people. The literature is good. I get it. I'm very smart.

1:03:38I'm a lot smarter than other people. So I'm just going to read the book in an afternoon and download it and be like, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. I see that. Definitely not going to get a sponsor. Definitely not going to ever make a program call with another fellow because these sick people, I don't really want to deal with these. Tragic. Like this is how I was seeing it. And I was there for a couple months and then I was like, I think I've, you know, I'm an accelerated student. So I think I got it. Cool. Thanks a lot. Thanks for the lessons. I don't need this. And I went out and picked up again, like instantly picked up another person and instantly did the thing I do.

1:04:16So after that kicked my ass, and this was after Rhea died, like one comment wasn't enough. It's never enough. You know, like I'm a low bottom sex and love addict. I have to have many more serious consequences than a normal person to finally I give up. But then I came the second time I was like, okay, got it. Let's do this now. Who will be my sponsor? Let me take 10 phone numbers. Let's do the steps. Let me put this thing down. And I was still negotiating. There was a beautiful moment at the beginning of my recovery where I said to my higher power, who I feel like I can hear and who hears me. I said, if I do this, if I do this right and I'm good and I do the steps and I get a sponsee and I like am the perfect A student, will you send me another great love story?

1:05:10And instantly I heard, I will promise you no such thing. Yeah. It's not a conditional thing. It's not a quid pro quo, like the gift of sobriety is sobriety. But I want the cash and prizes that come after and the invitation that I felt at that moment was, are you willing to fully put this thing down? Are you not willing to just do like 90 days of no contact with your qualifiers or a year of celibacy and working on yourself? Are you willing, this is my deepest dream. This is always my best idea for how to be well. And God was like, will you, what I heard was like, will you put it on the divine fire and not take it back out?

1:05:50Like just here, you can have this, you can have this dream. You can have this fantasy that the entire culture has celebrated. I mean, Eat, Pray, Love ends with me as Julia Roberts literally sailing into a sunset with Javier Brutal. Like, that's the story. Like, it's literally. And like, that's the story I had built and created. And God was like, can I have that? Can I have that dream? Like, can I have that dream? Can I have all? And what I often hear God saying about surrender is like, can you come to me with your hands empty? Can you come to me with nothing a little bit hidden behind your back as an ulterior motive of if then?

1:06:32If I do this, then maybe I can, you know? And I did. I was like, I pushed all the chips in. I'm like, I'm putting this down. like I'm putting this down with no promise that I'll ever get anything in return except a life that is for the first time in my life manageable right which is the gift of sobriety like I can actually handle my life today today I'm okay so that's the only deal that requires a tremendous reservoir of willingness and willingness is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. And I want to run this idea by you that I've been thinking a lot about and working on. Your ideas around ideas in big magic, that's something I think about a lot, like the notion that ideas are out there in the ether.

1:07:29And when one occurs to you or you grab it or it descends down upon you, it is your responsibility or obligation to bring expression to it, or it will evaporate, return to the ether and make itself available for somebody who is willing to do that. In the way that ideas work, I think there's something to be said that's analogous around the way that willingness works. Because I don't think that willingness is something that can necessarily be self-generated. You can like be willing to be willing, but that's sort of like wanting to want something that you don't actually want. You can aspire to willingness, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

1:08:13I think willingness is something that arrives from somewhere else, much like an idea. It strikes you and then you have a brief moment of time where it's your responsibility to exercise that willingness through some kind of action, some kind of contrary action. But if you don't do that, it will pass and evaporate. Willingness is like this very fickle thing that I can't quite put my finger on, but it's so powerful when it does arrive. If you have the awareness and the presence of mind to recognize it and take that contrary action, because in that moment where you did have the willingness, this extreme capacity to turn everything over.

1:09:00It's a very dramatic act. There were many days and probably darker days, more desperate times when you didn't have that and couldn't make that choice. I always say I wish I'd found recovery programs in this problem earlier, but I also need to call myself out on how very unlikely it would have been that I would have availed myself of them because I think I still felt like I can, I can solve this, right? I can solve this with my intellect. If I learn more, like I'm a great student. So it's like, I'll learn, I'll learn more. Like I felt like I divorce proofed my second marriage by writing this book called Committed, where I spent three years researching the history of marriage, all the sociological data around marriage, interviewing everybody that I met about marriage, and then collating it into this book where I was like, now I'm divorce proof because I have every single piece of information that there is about marriage because I never want to go through a divorce again.

1:10:02So I'm like, I'm going to just apply this. I'm just going to learn my way into safety, which is not the same thing as being willing to not know. One of the things when I was going through withdrawal and withdrawal from the dream, right? Withdrawal from the dream, the fantasy that someday I'm going to get this thing right. Like the humility of being like, I might never get this thing right. I might not be here to get this thing right. This thing maybe can't be made right. Like all of that. And the deep loneliness, the deep loneliness, like the searing physical pain of waking up in my bed in trauma, literally shaking and crying like a baby.

1:10:49And this voice being like hysterical inside me being like, this is not okay. Like, this is way too much. We need someone here. We can't like go get someone, like go get some, you know how to go get someone, go get someone. It doesn't matter who, like, doesn't matter who, just a body needs to be here in this bed. This is not okay. And sitting with myself through night after night of that and calling and just being very unhappy and miserable and uncomfortable, like all withdrawal and calling my sponsor and saying, when will this end? And what will be my reward? You know, like what will be my reward for all this discomfort?

1:11:31And when will this end? And she said, it'll end when it ends. And when it ends, it won't be you who ended it. That's a classic sponsor thing to say. It'll end when it ends. And when it ends, it won't be you who ended it. And can you live without knowing what the reward is? Can you do, she said, can you do what your sober predecessors before you did and walk through this withdrawal without knowing what you're going to get? You who love to know. I mean, knowing is how I stay safe. and I found there to be something like when I when she introduced the concept of a lineage like others before you have done this like others before you I don't know why that makes me just want to cry right now but like others before you have been in this much pain like this pain is not original to you and the people who were in this much pain before you found a series of actions that they could take that kept them out of extreme degradation and suffering.

1:12:31And can you just walk where they walked without knowing why you're even doing it? And I think, I don't know whether my willingness to do that was a decision of my own will, or if it was a gift from the mystery to be like, this kid has suffered enough. Like, let's just put her on this path. Like, let's just make her willing to be on this path. Like maybe she's had enough of this particular kind of pain. When did the idea of doing this extended celibacy come in? I didn't make a decision to be extendedly celibate. I made a decision to leave that up to God. So I'm not in a celibacy experiment. God is in charge of what I do in this realm.

1:13:25I don't make any decisions around this realm. So for me to say, I'm going to be celibate is just as ridiculous as me saying, I'm going to stay faithful in this marriage or I'm like not gonna be attracted to this person. Like I'm powerless over this. So what the relationship that I'm in is, what's your will for me, God? What is your will for me that would be of the highest use of me and service of me to this gift of life that you've given to me and to others where I would cause the least harm and be able to do the most service? And so far, you know, as of like 20 to four on this day, six years into my recovery program, God's been like, I want you doing just what you're doing.

1:14:11And I will notify you if that needs to change. And if that needs to change, it's not going to be your idea. It'll be my idea. But, you know, actually the shorter answer is when I say to my higher power, should I be dating? God's like, LOL, no. like uh and other people in my program do date you know and they date with sober dating plan I mean I have a sober dating plan I've got a document in place for if that day should come and I hope that I have the sobriety to use it if that day should come but for now the answer is we have so much healing to do of the it's not just that I have so much healing to do of the damage to me from 35 years of abandonment of self, degradation of body, disregard for my own wellbeing.

1:15:00Like there's so much healing to, that's a long time. I was deep in the paint in this thing for a long time. Right. So there's a lot of amends that I'm making to myself about things I'm sorry that I made myself do in order to get love approval, validation and acceptance. And so the immense process for me is like, we're not going to do that now. Like, I'm not going to make you go do that. Like, I will take care of you so that you don't have to degrade yourself so much so that somebody else will. But there's a lot of healing I have to do with people who I harmed. And that's been a really long process because the immense process is difficult when these kinds of actions hurt people at such a profound level.

1:15:44And so there's a, there's a lot of delicacy in terms of like, is it even safe for them if I approach, is this a person who ever wants to hear my name again? Like I did the worst thing to this person. Like, do they even want to, you know, so there's a lot of like, there's a lot of healing. I think of it as like healing a wetlands, you know, it's like these heavy metals that are in there take a long time to get out. And I don't want to rush. I don't have a deadline on that process. Like that's an open-ended process. So that's where I'm at. The amends, you know, it's a case-by-case thing, right? Like when is it a living amends?

1:16:20When is it appropriate and in the best interest of everybody to directly approach somebody? Like it's hard to know. And when those harms are severe and cut deep, you know, sometimes it's better to leave them be and to just, you know, kind of change your behavior going forward or write a letter to them that you don't send or just treat other people in a manner befitting your recovery. Like it's a hard thing. It's really hard. But when it's unresolved, it also makes it more difficult to move forward and release the baggage. And so you're still somewhat connected to those feelings of guilt and shame that surround it.

1:17:04But when you take dating off the table and you can no longer export or externalize how you feel about yourself upon the opinions of others, you're in this rare place of solitude where you can do that work and you can begin to exercise self-care. And that gets into this really important piece around self-love, which is like something I still like so many years later, I struggle with so deeply. it feels so cringy the whole prospect of it all because deep down I still harbor all of these like negative emotions about myself that creep up and start to infect my relationships and there's a whole terrain that still is out there for me to you know travel I try to avoid using terms self-love and self-hatred because self-love can feel really cringy and self-hatred is so dark and I just think of it in terms of friendliness and non-friendliness.

1:18:07Like the thing, the way I'm speaking to myself in this, I can like do a little assessment and be the way I'm speaking to myself right now isn't very friendly. It's not even about loving. It's just like, this is unfriendly. Like I would never speak to a friend this way. I would never degrade a friend this way. Is this a friendly moment or an unfriendly moment? Do you know the story about the Dalai Lama and Sharon Salzberg, the meditation teacher? Have you heard this story? I don't think so. So when the Dalai Lama came to the West for the first time through California, and it was probably in the 70s, 60s, early 70s, I think.

1:18:43I don't have the exact date, but nobody really kind of knew who he was. He wasn't this huge global figure yet. And some people, I'm going to guess, around Esalen brought him in that sort of circle, people who were philosophers and thinkers and meditators. And they had a kind of summit and they brought him and invited various therapists and thinking people in academics to meet this kind of obscure Tibetan monk. And Sharon Salzberg, the great meditation teacher who teaches a lot about metta, loving kindness meditation, was in the room. She was a young meditator and she had the opportunity to ask him a question and his English was very poor at the time.

1:19:21and she said, what is the traditional prescribed, within your lineage, what is the traditional prescribed cure or treatment for self-hatred? And he had to talk to a translator for 15 minutes before he even understood the question. He kept thinking he was hearing it wrong because he kept saying, who's the person that you're having a conflict with? He kept coming back and being like, who's your enemy? Who's the one that you're in trouble with? And they kept saying, like me. And he's like, but that, you're your own enemy. That doesn't even make any sense why you would be your own enemy. Cause you're the only one, like you're you, why would you, why would you be an enemy to you?

1:20:04And he was bewildered by this question. And then he was even more bewildered when he sort of took a survey around the room and was like, does everyone have this? Like, is this a thing? Like, is this, and everyone's like, every Western hand goes up. And he was, as a person of compassion, he was devastated. And he said, his exact quote was, I used to think that I understood the mind, but I find this very, very disturbing. He came away from that and his sort of approach toward the West was, we're going to have to start with this because this is not okay. And this absence of a sense of just inherent, your sovereign right to feel friendly toward yourself has been so violated and decimated in in this culture that we think it's natural to hate ourselves when it's actually the very very furthest thing so it's that's where I sort of start with with people you know um and where I start with with myself like and the way that I see it now on a sort of cosmic level is I believe that my little soul spirit that came here to come to earth school that god or whatever or the great mystery gave this one to me like i don't know totally what's going on here but i know that i'm not you i mean i know we're at one level one but in this duality like you're having a totally different experience over there than i am like so there's a rich guy there's he's in there and then And I'm in here and I'm in here talking to you, but like this one was entrusted to me to carry through this experience of Earth School.

1:21:46And I like now the way I think of it is they must have thought I could take care of it, you know, or they wouldn't have entrusted me with something as sacred as a soul. Right. So now the way I see it is like all the rage and resentment and fury that I felt at Raya and many other people where I'm like, you abandoned me. Like, you betrayed me. We had a contract. You were supposed to take care of me. You know, and it's like good guess and a totally innocent misunderstanding. Like, this is mine to carry through this world. Right? And I'm just learning how to do this. I'm just learning so I'm just learning how to look in and be like are you all right in there how can I serve you what do you need like how can we I can see you're suffering this little one is suffering in here and one of when I was going through withdrawal and having those nights where that addict voice that's trying to get me what I need it's like jonesing and being like we need to get someone here you know what I was saying out loud in my bed and this is I also remember having this feeling like, I'm so glad I'm alone.

1:22:54I'm so glad I'm living alone so that I can do all this stuff that would look very weird to someone, you know, like flopping about PTSD, shaking, talking to myself, comforting myself. I'm like, I'm actually really glad that I've got this container of this house that I live in where I'm not pulling anyone into this drama with me. I'm actually in the crucible with myself. And the only people here are the ones who need to be here. She's like me and God. And I would just say out loud, I would say to her, I know, I totally know why you want that. It makes so much sense. I know, I know your whole story and I know why you want me to get someone here.

1:23:33And I know what you think you're going to get out of that. And you're not wrong. Like that would actually be a fix for tonight. Like it would work. It always works like all drugs. It's like it would feel better. You play it out to its conclusion. You play the tape out. And it's like, and then I would just say to that part, like, do you remember all the other times we did that? And do you remember how it always ended? And it always ended worse. So we're just going to not do that. And I was watching this division in me. Like this thing was trying to run away from me. And it was like, I don't trust you to take care of me.

1:24:09I want to go find someone else. And I'm like, I get why you don't trust me. you shouldn't all I've ever done is abandon you but like I'm it's like I'm in parenting school at the Y learning how to take care of you now and I'm not going to always be great at it but you are my priority now and even if I'm not always a great mom like I'm here and and I'm not going anywhere and I'm not going to let us bring someone else in here because that actually ends up harming us and it's okay if you don't like that and it's okay if you feel like that's enough and we're gonna and I I don't care if we're up all night doing this.

1:24:39Like I am not leaving you. And I think the thing that I have always most needed to hear is, I don't care if we're up all night doing this. I am not leaving you. You cannot exhaust me. You are not too much for me. And I'm the only person, I now believe I'm the only person in the world who I am not too much for.

1:24:58Like, because it shouldn't be anybody else's job to do that. Like that's too big a job. They have to be doing that for themselves. They've got their own like neglected, abandoned kid in there who needs them, who they would abandon if they tried to do that for me. Right. So it never should have been anybody else's job. But I didn't know that. And I couldn't know that until I knew it. It's not dissimilar from the way, again, like back to creativity, like the idea that you talk about like, oh, the negative voice, the self-defeating voice, like we're going on a road trip. But you can come, but you gotta sit over there.

1:25:35And if you pipe up, you're going in the back seat. Like you're not allowed to like raise your voice. Like, I love you and I'm not abandoning you. Like you're part of me, but like there's rules, right? Yeah. So good at setting boundaries around that. But here we are, this is the same situation. It's just that you have to cleave off a deeper part of yourself that you have a harder time disassociating with or letting go of. right the wounded child that needs care that you're they've got bottled up in here like the negative creative voice that's easy for you you know but this is the tough one but on some version it's like russian nesting dolls like this is just it's the same thing right yes that's so well put rich exactly exactly and reya used to say there's always a i mean i think it's a common recovery phrase but there's always a trap door under every bottom like just when you think you You've hit rock bottom, it's a trap door and you can always go lower.

1:26:31But there's also always a ladder of ascension. You know, you can always evolve higher. Like you can always, your soul can always be sort of more polished. And I think a lot of sort of the journey of life is like you start to get rid of the, you know, the external things that you've been using to not go to the bottom of the bottom of the bottom of the thing. and when they're all gone, then it's just you and the little creature at the bottom of the hole, you know, who, when I met her, frankly looked at me and had no hope. I mean, she looked at me, she had the thousand mile stare of a 10 tour of duty soldier.

1:27:11And I was like, what do you need from me? And she was like, you will always abandon me. You will always abandon me. You'll always choose everybody else's comfort over my safety. Always. You'll always, people please your way into destroying, you'll always give everything that's mine away to everyone. Like, I can't count on you for anything. And I was like, you're right. You're right. Let me see what I can do. Let's start over. Like all these things though, they, they track back to childhood wounds and traumas. I'm sure you have some awareness around how this pattern originated and what locked it in.

1:27:54Beyond 12-step, are there other healing modalities that have been helpful, like internal family systems? I mean, there's a panoply of stuff out there. Yeah. IFS has been great. I would say for me, the two modalities that I think have actually given me transformation because everything helps, but I don't think helping is quite the same as having a transformative awakening experience where you feel like you're actually being changed. Say more about that. So I did talk therapy for probably two and a half decades and it was helpful. Like it's helpful. It was such a bandaid. It was so helpful to go in there and talk about my problems and have somebody compassionately listen, but I didn't stop doing those things, right?

1:28:41I didn't. Some people, it may actually transform. So for me, it was almost like a methadone clinic. It's like, I'm going to go get a little bit of love and connection with this person that's going to be able to keep me alive for the next week until I go get another. But I don't, you know what I mean? Using the therapist to like meet your addictive need. Yeah. The validation. You'll be a kind of temporary mommy for me, you know, and comfort and understanding. And then these little awakenings where it's like, oh, an epiphany, I understand more, but I would go out and do the same thing again, you know?

1:29:11So the two things that I feel like are the only two things that for me have actually made me not do those two things again, those things again. One is 12-step and the other is Byron Katie's work and self-inquiry and the four questions like that. Right. It's called the work, right? It's called the work. I don't know that much about her stuff, but... I find it to be really, that it creates radical transformations of thought within my mind. It asks me to have a really open mind and to be able to sort of jujitsu flip my beliefs where all of a sudden I kind of physically can't believe that anymore.

1:29:48It has something to do with basically just challenging everything you believe is true, right? Like what if it's not true? Your negative thoughts. Like releasing your attachment to ideas and identity. Is that right? Yeah. So yeah, a good one would be Raya abandoned me. I'm in that belief and I'm suffering enormously because I'm in that belief. So anyone would agree with it. Like anyone would have looked at her, like checked out on the couch, spending money on cocaine with a needle in her arm and be like, sure looks that way. Like I could definitely get a consensus of people to back me up on that.

1:30:20But what that work would do would be to ask me to dare to have an open enough mind to, I can always go back to the belief later, but would you sit in meditation and ask these four questions of this belief and the first one is is it true um that raya abandoned me and the answer to that can only be yes or no so you have to really think about like is it true she abandoned me the second question is if the first answer was yes the next question is can you absolutely know that it's true and that's where the ego starts to kind of like disintegrate like a slug when you put salt on it because it's like well i can't absolutely know much you know what i mean like it's like it looks true it feels true but like absolutely absolutely like it starts to introduce this possibility of doubt to this belief that I'm hanging my whole life on and then the third question is how do you respond when you believe that it's true I'm a victim I'm enraged I have to go find someone else to love to make up for what I lost with her you know I'm sick and suffering and pain and who would I be without that belief is the fourth question and it's like if I didn't have the belief that she abandoned me I would be free from that rage and then you do the really cool jiu-jitsu part is you take the original belief and then you try to find three opposites of it and you try them on she always says try them on like a pair of shoes and walk around in it and just see how that belief feels so with that belief rey had abandoned me an exact opposite would be i abandoned me that actually when i try that on a walk around in it it feels more true it's like oh wait a minute that actually kind of feels like like i did that like i agreed to go buy all those drugs.

1:31:55I made you into my higher power. I enabled this. Or Raya abandoned herself. Like that also feels very true. She abandoned her recovery program. She abandoned her highest ideals. She abandoned her integrity. It depersonalizes it where suddenly it's like, she didn't do that at me. She was just doing it. Like she was just an addict having a relapse. It wasn't personal to me. Like if I wasn't there, she'd be yelling at a tree. You know what I mean? She was just in her own experience. And so you start to take these beliefs and have the, I love an open mind. So that's why I think I really love that.

1:32:31Willingness is an open mind. Like when God said to me, are you willing to put this thing down and just come in with no understanding? Are you willing to be in a beginner's mind? Are you willing to be in a don't know mind? So her work helps me with my fears and resentments throughout the day. of like, I've got, you know, cause all addiction comes from fear and resentment. So when those ideas are challenged and you feel an emotional charge, obviously that's when there's something there to explore. Yeah. The resistance is because whatever that idea is, no matter how much it's leading you in the wrong direction, it is doing something for you.

1:33:12It's fulfilling some sort of need that needs to get understood and deconstructed and filled in a different way. It's crying out to be liberated. You know, that's how I see it because like a free mind, an open mind, a soft mind isn't getting, like I'm thinking of like a snag in a river. You know, like a free and open mind is just sort of a river flowing and then there's like a bend and like a giant log sort of just gets snagged. And then like all the other logs start hitting. I mean, we've seen it so many times in nature, which is like just hooked on that thing and so those like deep endemic beliefs those self-hating self-abandoning betraying beliefs are like these snags that i just keep getting caught on and once i'm caught on them i have no choice but to act out the way i act out like if i'm trapped in this belief of rey abandoned me i have to go find someone who's not going to abandon me like i have to like if i if i believe that like i have no choice and of course i'm going to go do that and if I retreat to wait, oh, I abandoned me.

1:34:13Now I love one of the definitions I love of sobriety is sobriety is the restoration of choice because addicts have no choices. It's like, you've got to do this thing. You're so compelled. So it's like, well, now I actually have a little bit of space where I can decide how would I like to respond here. I mean, that's a good way of putting words to the fear that a lot of people have around 12-step recovery, which is this idea of surrendering to a higher power, this notion that you're giving up, that you're relinquishing any agency over your life. It's a very confronting, threatening prospect that is short-sighted in that it doesn't fully comprehend the liberation that occurs when you kind of let go of all these attachments and turn it over and really develop this spiritual connection.

1:35:09I mean, truly like that is, you know, this is the, you get your diploma in earth school when, when you realize that there is nothing, there is nothing more important than your divine connection. Like it's really, that's it. Right. And we struggle so much and try to figure that out in all these material ways that lead us astray when all we want to do is kind of go home. Right. And it's so hard for us. And I fight it tooth and nail. And we try to make so many other things our home. And it's like, my surrender's conditional. Like, yes, but like, I'm still, I still need to like, you know, over here is where like, I'm in control of this.

1:35:45And the idea of relinquishing control, like that notion that maybe you're not in control, like that's where all the juice is. Like that's when you open the portal to all the good stuff. And it's so difficult to make that leap though. There's a line in the book, I actually did a little illustration of it, that you don't want to surrender because you're afraid of losing control, but you never had control. All you had was anxiety. All you had was anxiety. You know, and there's the other line that says like, when you give up control, you're giving up something you never had in the first place. Like you're just giving up this dream of this thing that you never had.

1:36:23When I work with sponsees and they're having trouble with steps two and three, which are the, you know, made this decision to turn our will and our life over to the care of a higher power and came to believe a power greater than ourselves, those ones. Especially people who have a lot of religious trauma, which I'm extremely sympathetic to, where those concepts can feel really, really super threatening. One of the things that I invite them to do is that they get to write, I asked them to write an essay too. They get to create, it's like a Build-A-Bear, you get to create your own higher power. So write down what the qualities, it's almost like the qualities you would want in a partner.

1:36:57What are the qualities that you would have to have in a higher power to surrender to them. Like, cause it's not going to be to the God. You can't surrender to the God you were taught is judging and hating you. Like you already hate yourself. Like you already hate yourself so much. You already judge yourself so much. Like that's not going to feel good. So I'm like, just, you get to create your own HP. Let's go. And they're like, you can't do that. Can you? I'm like, totally you can. And why would a loving, mysterious God not take whatever form it needed to take for you to find it, right? So it's interesting because usually the first thing they have on the list is unconditionally loving, especially love addicts.

1:37:38You know, it's like, I need a higher power who thinks I'm absolutely perfect as this wreckage that I am right now. Like that's where it's gotta start. Like I can't have a God coming in here and shaming me. Yeah. I can't. The other idea that's helpful for people that come in with that kind of baggage and resistance, to anything spiritual in any regard because of their religious background or whatever is to just say kind of what you said earlier, which is there's wisdom in these rooms. Like a lot of people have faced and overcome things that you're struggling with right now. And one of the choices you can make is just to make the group consciousness your higher power.

1:38:19And that is a higher power at work, certainly being channeled through those people. and it just grounds it and makes it a little bit easier to make that leap. Yeah, I love that. That's the G-O-D equals group of drunks. Isn't that what they say? That you make that your God, the crew. I also love, there's a couple questions I've heard, which is like, can you imagine, and it's just a hypothetical, that there might be an intelligence in the universe greater than yours? And you don't have to know what it is, but even looking at the ocean tides, I'm not doing that. And it's a very intelligent system, the way it's working.

1:38:59There's like a beauty and an order that might be smarter than me. Like it might be, like, could it be? Or is my brain the highest intelligence in the universe, which doesn't even make sense, especially looking at how badly I've done managing my life, right? Like you can just take that as an example. Like if I'm so smart, why do I keep driving myself over a cliff, right? So could it be possible that there's an intelligence in the universe? And you don't even have to name what it is or know what it is. And the second question is, if the answer to that is yes, and if it's possible, could it be possible that it cares about you?

1:39:33That you're part of it, like you were created unto this. And if it's possible, you don't have to know, but is it possible? And then third question is, if it's possible that it cares about you, can you imagine a possibility that it might want to be in communion with you? which brings us back to creativity and this idea of like ideas in the ether that want to be in communion with you and is it possible that it's trying to communicate with you and that if you ask it to communicate with you it will and if you ask it to help you it will is it possible or are we going to stick with your brain is the highest intelligence and it's got all the answers as evidenced by the wreckage of your life Pete Holmes has a pretty funny bit about this.

1:40:20Have you heard this one where he talks about nothing? You know, like you ask people what happens when you die and nothing, nothing happens. And reconciling that with the idea that, you know, before the big bang, there was nothing, you know? So if it's nothing, well, then that's God. You're just calling it nothing. It's something, you know, like - Right, it all leads back - I mean, obviously he does it in a brilliant way that's hilarious or whatever. I have seen that quote, he's so great. but it's like a mental, like gymnastics to like get around the language. And Rob Bell has said beautifully, you don't have to call it God, but that doesn't solve the problem of what the hell is going on.

1:40:56Liz, what is going on? Like what is going on? Earth school, I think. I'm taking this off. I mean, I think that's what's going on. I think earth school is going on. And when you look around what we've been able to see yet of the universe, it doesn't appear there's anything else that we've found yet that's like this. Something very special is going on here. This is a very special place, this planet. And consciousness seems to be a very special thing. And the Buddhists say that it's a very precious thing to have a human life, even with all of its suffering. I have not always felt that way. I've often felt like checkpoints.

1:41:31I don't care for it. No, thank you. Zero out of five stars. But the Buddhists say your chances of being born in human form and having the opportunity to have this spiritual experience on life. They're so glancingly slim. They're like, it's the same as the chance of a turtle that lives at the bottom of the ocean that only comes to the top of the ocean once every hundred years, coming to the top of the ocean for a moment and its head coming up in a ring that's floating on the ocean. Those are the odds, which actually biologically is true when you look at sperms and eggs. It's like the odds of the, that one like inseminating event are so like, what are the, they're like astronomical, you know?

1:42:15And, and so you're being offered and invited, but not forced to have an interesting experience here and show up for it. Like, let's show up for it and see what happens next. One of the things that you talk about is this idea of like purpose anxiety, right? Because when you talk about that preciousness, then that trickles down into, okay, I'm here. I have a certain amount of time. What am I going to do with it? Let's get to work. and there is a cultural pressure out there that I think really makes people feel lousy about themselves where they feel like they have to, like, what is my purpose? What is my thing?

1:43:10Like, I'm falling behind. I don't have it. I don't know what it is. So I'm less than as a result because the more you talk about how precious this life is, I think that that can like turn the volume up on that feeling of like, well, how do I fit in here? And am I anything if I'm not special in this particular way? Yeah. Americans can contaminate anything. We took preciousness and turned it into purpose theology. You have to earn that preciousness by achieving something or leaving an impact or changing the world. The problem with that, And again, I think there's an innocence in that belief, but one of the problems with that is like, when do you know you've done that enough, right?

1:43:59Especially in a culture where nothing is ever enough. Because you and I both know people who appear to be at the very top of that purpose game. And when you're in their company, you're like, this person's not well, you know, like you can feel that they're not well. And they're nailing it. Like they're just extremely anxious in a much nicer house than I will ever have. You know, it's not work. It's not even working. That purpose-driven thing doesn't even seem to be working for the people that it's working for. And the anxiety is not gone, you know, despite the tremendous accomplishments, like people with tremendous accomplishments kill themselves all the time.

1:44:36So do people with no accomplishments. So it's not, it's not that that kills you. It's just that it doesn't seem to answer that deeper question. and you know there's a story that i think we've all been told in a million commencement addresses about this idea that you've got this unique spark offering and it's your one job to figure out what it is and then you've got to monetize it and then you've got to bring it to other people and you've got to have a legacy like you've got to be remembered after you you know all of this to me just sounds like the fears of the ego like am i important am i special did i earn my right to be here?

1:45:11Did I waste my time? Should I have done more? Did I save enough lives? Did I leave a long enough legacy? Did I make enough of an impact? You know, all of this is like ego, ego, ego, ego, ego. Whereas the preciousness that I feel like I'm speaking about doesn't need any of that. It just is. It's intrinsically precious. It is sovereign in its preciousness. It is precious whether you're living under a bridge, wearing a garbage bag and screaming at people when they walk by or like running the world. There's something happening that is extraordinary, which is that you're here. And so the thing that I'm always, when I teach, like I ask people to forget about purpose.

1:45:59Like when I teach workshops, I'm like, I hope you didn't come here to find your purpose because I'm not going to help you. I'm not going to help you because I actually want to help you kind of let that go and see if you can replace it with presence, which I think is just an awareness of awareness. Like I have no idea what's going on here, but it's objectively very interesting. You know, and even the really horrible worst moments are objectively interesting. I mean, even when Raya was diagnosed, I remember there was this tiny little awakened part of my mind that was like, and I put it away really quickly, but there was a recognition where I was like, this is interesting.

1:46:38Like, this is the person who I can't live without. This is a one person. Like if God had come to me and said, I'd be like, you can take all the rest of them. Like all of them. They can all come, they can all go. You know, like this is the one that you can't take. This is the one that you can't take. This is the one that I can't live with that. And they're like, okay, we're going to take that one. And even in the grief, there was this teeny little thing was like, that's interesting. Like that is really objectively interesting. Like, oh, because lots of times you think you have your purpose and then life will teach you otherwise.

1:47:15Like my purpose is to be this tremendous parent. Like I'm going to be this great parent. And then you fail. Like you have a child who, what Rob Bell always goes, everyone's got that one kid. It's like you got one that it worked with and then you've got one that it just doesn't work with. And then maybe they spend their entire life estranged from you and maybe they spend their entire life blaming you. And you're like, well, this is interesting because I totally thought like so much of my life is things where I'm like, I thought I was going to be good at this. You know, I thought it was my purpose to do this and maybe it wasn't, you know, and Leonard Cohen and it's a beautiful line in a documentary about him where he said, you know, one of the great sufferings that we often have is this feeling that there was some mission that we were supposed to do and we failed at it.

1:48:05And he said, but maybe, and he then went and lived in a monastery for a ton of time and meditated on it until he came away with like, but what if there's a deeper mission, which is to fail at it? And what if it was never yours? You know, you took on the mantle and the assignment that this is what you're here for. And the sort of punchline is apparently not, right? Like, apparently not. And what if just sitting in your shared humanity of the wreckage of your expectation is actually the portal to joining us here in our shared humanity? Like, welcome to your family. Here we are. Like, we all thought we were supposed to do something, you know?

1:48:52And like, even now, like, we're supposed to save the planet. Like, maybe not. I don't know. Like, I can't, I'm like, I don't know. And I feel like we're failing at it. But like, are we supposed to do it? Like, I don't know. So just being present to whatever is. there's a line I love that Byron Katie says, whenever I argue against reality, I lose, but only always. So a lot of my purpose anxiety in the world is about like, I want to imprint myself on the world in this particular way. And reality is like, no. I share that. I mean, first of all, you know, that's beautiful what you just shared. And I think highly advisable and actionable in this moment that we're experiencing.

1:49:37Like it's, there's a lot of crazy shit going on right there. It's very easy to get dysregulated or caught up in your opinions or inflamed, you know, around your attachment to certain ideas. And it feels like that is a pathway to equanimity and compassion for yourself and other people. And I think that we need that right now. You know, in my earth school classroom at the moment, like, you know, all of what you said is like kind of coming up for me right now. Like I just had this serious spinal surgery about five weeks ago and I'm being forced to, you know, stop and slow down and just be with myself.

1:50:18And it's sort of like COVID lockdown, except with physical pain and, you know, not being able to move your body. Like I'm here at work, it's fine, but not being able to kind of do the things that make you feel like yourself. and I'm very good at like outrunning anything that makes me feel uncomfortable and hiding in my work or just, you know, kind of escaping, like I like what I do and it's, and my life is good, like there's not like any kind of chaos happening or huge problems, but I do have a lot of self-awareness around this need to like be seen and validated that's driven by this notion that love is transactional and needs to be earned through achievement and approval and accolades and all that kind of stuff.

1:51:04And obviously that's a hedonic treadmill that leads nowhere. And I don't wanna be a victim of this striver's dilemma. The solution to it is being with myself and not being able to move or escape this discomfort, but to actually sit with it and cultivate this presence with that discomfort as a teaching tool to like learn a different way, to let go, to realize like whatever attachment I have to the meaning of who I am or what I do, or this notion of purpose, like it's all, these are just constructs, you know, that we create and adorn with meaning that create more suffering. And for as much as, you know, my behavior traits have led me to a certain privileged place in the world, they are also the Achilles heels that are in the way, you know, obstructing, you know, my connection with a higher consciousness and a deeper sense of meaning and greater connection with other people and more intimacy and all these other things that I sort of am too quick to kind of shove aside as optional and I'll get to it when, you know, I have more time.

1:52:18But you know what I mean? So this is like - What was that you needed more time? Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, done and done. Let's ground him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're being held in from recess. Right. I know. You're not allowed to go out there on the playground. Yeah. I can come out and talk to you, but then I need to go back and think about what you just shared with me. There's a Bedouin line, I think, that says the only thing that belongs to you is anything that cannot be, this is interesting to say in California at this moment, but anything that cannot be burned in a fire, lost in a shipwreck or stolen by pirates.

1:52:54And that doesn't leave much, you know, including your own body. So what belongs to us, I think is actually like, if we start to, what does belong to you then also I think is the answer to like, what are you? Which I think is also the answer to what is God. It's like the thing that cannot be lost in a shipwreck, the thing that cannot be burned by fire, the thing that cannot be stolen by a pirate. What is that thing? And the Ramana Maharishi used to tell his students, the great Indian sage and teacher, he was like, there's two questions. It doesn't matter which one you use. He was just like, your choice, dealer's choice.

1:53:34I have the solution for you. It's just, you get to pick. You either spend your life meditating on who is God, or you spend your life meditating on who am I? And just sit and keep asking that question. Either one of them will get you to the same place. It doesn't matter which way. It's like both paths lead to each other. You're going to bump into God by asking who am I, and you're going to bump into yourself by asking who is God. And that's the thing that, that's all you have. Like, really? I think. I think. And I think the reason I feel like I know that to be true is when I remember that, my whole nervous system is like, oh, thank God.

1:54:14Are you able to like - Thank God I don't have to go hustle. Then I'll go out and hustle till I forget. Can you marinate in that consciousness and, you know, kind of stay present with it throughout the day? Or do you just have fleeting glimpses of that? Or is it like a practice to always try to return to that place? I couldn't for a long time because my shame was in the way. I think that was the biggest thing. Like I couldn't sit still because I was in so much shame. And like, so anytime I tried to sit still and meditate, all I felt was shame, including shame that I can't sit still and meditate.

1:54:50But then below that, like multiple sub basements of shame where like my mind would just come out with a parade of horrors of like all my shortcomings and failures and disasters and you're garbage person and fraud and you're, you know, I mean, like just, it was like, it would feel like hell to me to sit quietly. And I think 12-step... really has made it easier for me to meditate because I'm sort of like at this point with the transparency that comes in recovery, it's like, bring me one of those things, those horrors that I did. Let me take it out of the sub-basement, bring it to the room, tell a bunch of people about it.

1:55:31You know, like one of my friends and I in the room, like one of our rules is once a week we call each other and we're like, this is the thing I don't want anyone to know about me today. So I was like, let's take this thing out, show it to someone, like let them sit in a loving presence for me while I reveal this. the world doesn't explode because they now know this awful, shameful thing. And then I'm going to show it to God and God's like, I know. You're not telling me anything new. And then I'm going to take it to my sponsor. And it's like, did I do something that was horrible? Like, did I do something that was wrong?

1:56:05Did I do something that was hurtful? Did I do something that I need to immediately fix and not manage, but like take accountability for. So instead of just stewing in this constant, you know, like half of Eat, Pray, Love in the India section is just me describing how much I hated meditating because I was suffering. Like I was just, it was just like watching the worst movie in the entire world. It's like a life review in heaven where your life is awful and it's all your fault, you know? And it's like, here's another thing you did. Here's another thing you did. And, you know, it was horrible, but now I'm like, oh, there's a thing I did.

1:56:40And then I'm like, oh, you're right. I did do that. Like, that's kind of the way to defeat that shame. It's like when the devil comes knocking, you invite them in for tea, what's your worst? Like, show me the worst thing I did. I'm like, wow, I acknowledge that I did that. I'm going to share that thing that I did with somebody. And then I'm going to take it to my sponsor and be like, how do I, how do I make an amends for this? And then that thing doesn't have any power over me anymore. So just doing that like so steadily over the last six years, Like I just wrote an amends letter yesterday to somebody that I harmed like 35 years ago.

1:57:11That's like in one of my sub basements. And I'm like, I think it's time to reach out to this person. And it's like a long ongoing process. So the more of those I do, the less power that awfulness has over me. And then I can sit for a really long time and just be. And when I do that and I get really quiet and I sit there for a long time, what I hear is, I love you, I love you, I love you. That's all I hear, which is all I've ever wanted to hear, which is what I was doing all of this out here to try to get people to say. Right, but you're getting the real shit now. I'm getting from the well that doesn't run dry.

1:57:46Yeah. Rhea was modeling that level of truthfulness all along. Like it's sort of breadcrumbs there, right? Like that was something that was very attractive about her. Like just her past didn't own her because she had learned in the rooms that like honesty will set you free. Like the idea that by sharing with another person, you know, in the construct of 12 step or otherwise, like there is a freedom that comes with that, where that thing that you've pushed down and are so afraid to share and feel like if you shared it, the world is gonna collapse because the world is not a safe place and you're a hypervigilant person and you're scanning the room and you know where everybody is.

1:58:28Because God forbid they know this, right? Right. And then you find out like, oh, nobody cares. And actually other people relate to this. And all of that energy and shame and guilt was for what? Yeah. And it's the contrary action. Because, you know, one of the lines that I say in the book is that there's this series of famous letters between Bill W. And the founder of AA and Carl Jung. Jung, yeah. And in it, one of the things that Carl Jung says is like, you know, the hunger for alcohol is a sort of low level spiritual hunger. What it's sort of semi-adequately doing is giving a person a sense of a connection with the divine.

1:59:12Probably because the shame drops away, right? It's like, I don't have to think. I don't have to know who I am anymore. I can check out and now I actually feel good because I'm not, you know, until the shame, the next day is even worse, right? but he said without a connection to the divine the average person cannot resist I think his exact line was like what the medieval people rightfully called the devil and I find that line like really interesting and one of the things that I said in the book is like if Satan existed and I didn't grow up with a Satan concept so that doesn't mean a lot to me but like if Satan existed he could scarcely do better in terms of like creating misery than to talk inside your mind and feed you this like ticker tape of you're the worst, you suck, it's all your fault.

2:00:02If anyone knows this, they'll hate you. You are uniquely fucked. You are like uniquely broken. Nobody will ever be able to understand you. You deserve relief. You deserve relief from this. You should go get relief by any means. You deserve to get relief by any means necessary and don't tell anyone I said this. Like the big thing is don't tell anyone I said this. Like this must be kept in a chamber of secrets. So I'm going to torment you from within, but you're not allowed to say that I exist, you know? And so the counteraction to that, and I think why 12-step for all its faults and it's not for everyone works so well, is because it's like, oh, that's what we're going to lead with.

2:00:42You're going to raise your hand and be like, here's what I did you know like here's what you know and what I've found what I love about the rooms and I know you get this is like the laughter yeah everybody loves it like instead of it being like this horrible thing everyone's like hi yeah me too and then I had a good idea you know and all of a sudden it's like because the power is changed it's connection people the facts of our experience are different but there's the shared emotional valence of it all so even though somebody's telling a crazy story it's like very different from your story but you're like I know what that feels like.

2:01:14Yeah, I can totally get that. I have my version of that in my life. And so things are funnier than they actually are because of that. You're like, I know this. Yeah. It's so comforting, right? And you're right. Rhea had that and she was great at it. And that was what was so beautiful to me because I was doing, like every word of my mouth was a press release. I've got to like get the wording on this right, you know, so that like people don't set upon me with pitchforks and, you know, it's like, stay safe, stay safe, stay safe, stay safe. Like that was the drumbeat. And she was just like, let's just throw it out there.

2:01:52But the flip side of the I'm a piece of shit consciousness is to be able to simultaneously also believe that you're the fucking best. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like there's a superiority complex, you know, built into that, that is, I think, unique to the addict, the ability to hold those two counterpoints at the same time. Well, that's the ego. It's like, I'm best, I'm the worst. It doesn't mind being the worst as long as it's the most something. Like I'll be the most, right? Am I, did I win? Did I win the worst? You know, do I get a trophy? Am I important because I'm the biggest piece of shit?

2:02:29And I had a sponsor very early on who I used to love because I would call him and I would like share these safe self-hating feelings that I was having. like, I'm like, I'm so shamed about this. And I'm so embarrassed about this. I don't know what to do about this. And he would say, are you thinking about yourself? Like he would just say like, oh, it sounds like you're thinking about yourself. Are you thinking about yourself? And I was like, yeah, I'm thinking about yourself. He's like, well, that's not a good idea. Yeah. You know, he's like, how about you do some service? Anybody you can help today?

2:02:58Like, let's break that. The antidote to self-obsession. Yeah. Like, is there a newcomer you can talk to? Is there somebody, you know, Is there like an act of kindness you can do for another human being? Or do you just want to sit here thinking about yourself? Yeah. Well, because that's out of the heat. Until you want to die. It's like it's doing something for you. It's like feeding your dopamine or whatever, like nourishing that notion that you're the worst or whatever. There's a weird dysfunctional comfort in that. Yeah. Well, the line they always say is, I'm not much, but I'm the only thing I ever think about.

2:03:31Right.

2:03:34and that's the beautiful thing about being another bozo on the bus you know like like i mean i when i first came in i'm like i'm a public figure i can't be in this 12-step room talking about these absolutely shameful episodes of sexual romantic and ethical degradation that i both committed and allowed myself to receive people are going to go to page six about this they're going to tweet about it they're going to you know and and my first sponsor was like you're actually just another bozo on the bus. Like you're not Elizabeth Gilbert here. Nobody actually really cares. They're here to get their own recovery.

2:04:11Doing this thing here in LA. Like I can tell you that the well-known people that get well and stay well are the ones who get over that whole thing. And the ones who don't are the ones who do get caught up in that narrative. It's gotta be hard though. I'm sympathetic to that. Like I understand that fear. Yeah, but there really was a reckoning moment. Especially when you struggle to trust people. Well, and especially because I think you mentioned at the beginning, I feel like sex addiction and especially anything having to do with sex and love addiction for women carries the same stigma now that like being an alcoholic would have carried 40 years ago.

2:04:51Yeah, I think you're right about that. And that's why people don't know about any of these programs because it's like, for shame. You know, and that's another reason why I, with counsel from my sponsor, made the decision to be open about it. Because it's like, well, if somebody's going to do it, I'll do it. I'll do it because everybody already knows everything about me. I've already made it a habit of telling everybody everything. I don't have a partner to embarrass. My family's pretty hands-off, so they don't care. I don't have kids to embarrass. So why don't I do it? I'll talk about it. And then if you hear something that that I'm saying that reminds you of yourself, then you can go look into it and know that it exists.

2:05:31That's the way I feel about it. But there are traditionalists who would say that that's a violation of the tradition, you know, not sharing publicly about these kinds of things. And I understand the reasons behind that, but, and we all have our different line with that, you know, and I never quite know where to land on that, but I generally err on the, you know, kind of the liberal side of it because, you know, for the very reasons that you said. Like there are people out there who are suffering who either aren't aware about this at all or have an affiliation or a mental construct of it that's based on television or movies or something like that.

2:06:09And I think it's important to humanize it. And I think especially when it comes to like SLA and the things that you're talking about, like this is uncharted territory for a lot of people. Yeah, it's interesting. I actually nerded out the way I love to and did a deep dive into what the founders had to say about this. Oh, really? Yeah, because there is a lot. I mean, and there isn't a consensus on it in the rooms. I mean, this is real inside baseball recovery stuff, but people get really heated about it. And there have been articles in the New York Times about it. Is it okay? Is it not okay? You know, people are like, it's an anonymous program.

2:06:40It's right there in the title. You know, and for me, it's like, well, I would certainly never blow up anybody else's anonymity. But I don't see anywhere where it says that you have to, you're not allowed to identify yourself as an addict. And there's also to consider that when all of this stuff was created, you would lose your job if you were an alcoholic back in 1935. You would be shunned from your community. Like it was essential that there was no discussion about this outside of the rooms. And yet, Bill W. wrote a couple of really interesting essays about this very topic. And I was like, what's Bill got to say about this?

2:07:15And his position was you should talk about it all the time. You should always talk about being an addict. And you should always talk about being an addict who has found recovery because you are a beacon of hope for people who need to see that there is a possibility of healing from this thing that has dogged them forever. But you don't have to get into the specifics of naming your program. You can say, I found recovery in a 12-step program that deals with alcoholism. You don't have to say, I found recovery in AA. and his reason which I thought was really subtle for that was if somebody like if somebody hears that they'll go find it but he also said if you if someone dislikes you he's like we have to save the rooms from people's personalities he's like if somebody dislikes you and they hear that you're an AA and they need AA they might not go to AA but if you just say like I was sick and now I'm well and I found a 12-step program about that he was like talk about it write about it put it in the the papers, like everybody should know about this.

2:08:15Well, the other thing they're afraid of is if it's a well-known person and, you know, they're just going everywhere talking about it and they're in early sobriety and they relapse or they relapse later like that, you know, casts a shadow on the viability of the program. Suddenly it's like, oh, that doesn't work. It doesn't work. Because this person didn't work. And these things come in waves as somebody who's been around for a long time. Like every couple of years, there's a sort of zeitgeist moment in the press where it's like, this doesn't work and here's the new thing. I've seen like, you know, so many versions of that.

2:08:46But what's stuck around? This miracle where all these people who can barely get along have somehow figured out to create this thing that has thrived across the globe. Like it's really insane. For almost a hundred years. I mean, it is a miracle. And it's free. What I always say, it's like, where else can you stumble into a room full of strangers, broken, penniless, alone, desperate, not knowing where to go, who to turn. And this group of people will take you in and hold you and help you and ask for nothing in return. It's incredible. That's the part that's so interesting to me is the asking for nothing in return.

2:09:31Because so much of my relationship history has been transactional. you know like i i'm gonna earn your love attention validation and acceptance by huge acts of service or overgiving or you know i'm like we're gonna i'm gonna make sure that i get you locked down my first sponsor used to bring up gifts like i mean that's my giving gifts to people is my love language but it's also my manipulation language it's a it's a sort of a thin line where it's like i'm gonna give you this thing so you love me and don't leave me and i remember her saying like I don't need this you know like it's very sweet that you gave me this necklace I mean now I think it's so like if one of my sponsees was like here I gave you a like I'd be like honey it's not what we're doing here you know like that's not this is the one place that that's not what we're doing here and as your sponsor I think that's what I tell my sponsees now like actually and I remember my sponsor saying to this to me and it didn't make any sense where she's like I'm getting much more out of this than you are taking you through the steps.

2:10:31And I was like, that can't be true. You're giving me all this time for free and dealing with my shit, you know, but now that I have sponsees, I'm like, oh yeah, there's, this is such a gift to be able to do this. How has this affected your creativity and your output? Like you've, you know, opted out of like a lot of drama and a lot of, you know, energy kind of placed in the wrong direction and you've replaced it with your engagement with the program and recovery and things like that. But there's a lot of headspace that is now freed up. I've written three books in the last six years, which is crazy.

2:11:10Wow. I mean, not that that should be a measure of anything other than, wow, look what happens when all of this energy, like I've had a hole in my boat that I've been like, I've been simultaneously rowing the boat and bailing the boat out. And I'm actually really proud of myself for how far I got rowing with one arm, you know, while simultaneously bailing out the boat. But like stepping out of the drama cycle, as you just mentioned, with sexual and romantic engagement, it's like, I got two arms to row now. And it's like, whoa, this is wild. I mean, one of the beautiful definitions I heard of addiction is addiction is giving up everything for one thing and recovery is giving up one thing for everything.

2:11:53And my everything has gotten so big. And it's not just the creativity, but this is the one that kind of a little bit breaks my heart. I've always had great friends and a lot of friends, but my relationships, my central kind of like flagship relationship, whoever it was, whoever I had taken hostage at the moment, whoever I had decided was like that person at the center of my life, the amount, the sheer amount of energy that I poured into that was so enormous. And now when I'm not doing that, I look around and I'm like, I had these incredible friends. Like I've got these decades long friendships that I had been just nominally attending to for my entire life.

2:12:42Wonderful people, like loving extraordinary people and it's like it brings tears to my eyes I was like you were there the whole time like you were there like I was sending you a Christmas card once a year and we could have been doing this like we could have been having this amazing generative creative really fun incredible friendship like community existed you know creativity existed God existed like it's like all this other stuff was there that was being blocked by my one thing because that thing was like the thing I was obsessed with and fixated on. And now you could take it all the way to the river.

2:13:17Hopefully. Explain what that means, the title of the book. So my partner, Raya, was a New Yorker. I mean, she was a Syrian immigrant raised in Detroit, but identified as a New Yorker and particularly a New Yorker on the Lower East Side. And she had this operative metaphor for describing her friendships. And she said, you got your Fifth Avenue friends. So she would look at a map of New York and be like, right here in the center is Fifth Avenue. So your fifth avenue friends are the people that you're completely superficial with. And it's professional relationships. And, you know, you've got a sort of mask on.

2:13:48They've got a mask on. You know they have a mask on. They know you do. You don't want to take the mask off. You know, you're just, you're acting a certain role. And then you go to like a little farther east and you go to like your fourth and third avenue friends. And you start to let them see you a little bit more. And there's a little bit like the mask starts to come off. And then you get to your like second and first avenue friends. and now there's intimacy. Like they know about your history, you know about their history. Maybe you went to their wedding, like you've met their family, you start to see behind the public persona.

2:14:20And she's like, but it's not till you get to your Avenue A, B, C, and D friends, your alphabet city friends. Those are the people who have been in the shit with you and they know everything. Like they know they were with you through your divorce and through your breakup and through your addiction and they dropped you off at rehab. and like they know all the stuff you know and they love you anyway and maybe you've had problems with them you've had fights with them you've had to make up like you've seen them they've seen you and then she's like but if you're really lucky because after avenue d there's just the highway and then there's the river she's like once in your life if you're very lucky you might have an all the way to the riverfront and that's just makes me cry again to say it but she was always like you're my all the way to the riverfront like we're gonna go all the way to the east river together which means you will see everything yeah like there will be nothing withheld and they know you like they know you at the depth of the deepest depth that you can know somebody and she was always like you're my all the way to riverfront and i i was i took so much pride in it and then when she started when we found out she was dying we started calling her death the river so on the day she found out she had terminal cancer she said i want you to walk all the way to the river with me.

2:15:35And God help us, I did. Because as I describe in the book, if you've ever walked all the way from Fifth Avenue to the East River, it's not very nice to walk at times. It's a lot better than it used to be. Like back in the day though, it's like you're going through projects, you're stepping over drug dealers, like you're walking on needles and crack vials. There's dog shit. I mean, like the closer you get to the river, the more intense it is. You got to make it across the, you know, across the highway. You've got to find the overpass. And then you get to the East River and it's the East River, which is like, you don't exactly want to jump in the East River, you know?

2:16:08So it's harrowing. Like the book has been described to me as harrowing. But I think that true intimacy is, you know, like really allowing yourself to be that known, I think is a bit harrowing because we're difficult humans. were difficult and were full of contradictions and dangerous and unreliable and beautiful and sublime all at the same time. Yeah, if you want the beauty and transcendence that a relationship can deliver in the best way, you gotta walk past Avenue D and maybe step on a syringe or two along the way. Yeah. Now it's all gentrified. I think, didn't they just down at - Not at all.

2:16:53By the East River also, didn't that new park right on the river just open right now. It's all nice. I'm still picturing the housing projects are still there. You know, like the abandoned parts of the city are still there. The power plant is there. that weird power plant. You know, that everybody who lives over there has to breathe. And I remember one time, I don't know why I'm thinking of this, but when Rhea got cancer and they put a port in her arm at one point so that they could be able to inject her with chemo drugs and not have to just keep taking a port in and out. And this was before she had her big drug relapse.

2:17:26And we walked out We walked out of the hospital and she was like, her eyes were shining. And she's like, dude, you know what I could have done with this back in the day? She's like, I can't freaking believe they do this. She's like, I could put anything in here. They let her leave the hospital with it in it? They let me leave the hospital with a port in my arm that I could stick a needle with anything in it. She was like, she was kind of like tweaked by it. She's like, I could put Jack Daniels in this. I could put anything in this. I could put like, I could shoot anything I wanted right into my veins so easily.

2:17:56she's like it's great and um and I remember we were up in midtown and like she'd just come from chemo and I was like if you had to find heroin you know now after 18 years clean how long would it take you and she I just remember her whole demeanor changed and she just like she like looked at her watch she did this like really like wolfish kind of look at her watch and she's like and she's like where are we she like clocked the street she was on and she goes 15 minutes 15 minutes i could be an avenue d i know exactly where to go and she said all i would have to do is point to this um and and i was like whoa and and and now that i understand how easy it is to be swept into addiction there's a chapter that i have in my book called you will have 30 seconds to save your life that's about what the vigilance and this is a good use of my vigilance the the vigilance and the awareness that I have to keep as I move through the world to not be like, I could get that in 15 minutes.

2:18:57You know, if I need it. Yeah, my question to you is, how long would it take you, you know, in a crowded room walking down the street or in New York City to like identify 50 meters, like who that person is, who's gonna just light you up and fill those needs and do all the things that, you know, you want them to do for you, like to go right back to that place. I'm getting a little older, first of all. So it might not be quite as easy as it used to. I mean, this isn't about me blowing my horn in any way. It's not hard for a woman. You know what I mean? Like, you simply must agree to make your body available to somebody, and there will be somebody who will happily do that.

2:19:35You know, so it's not like you don't have to be like a master seductress. You just have to be like, you know, just raise your hand and be like, I'm not right here, anybody? You know, like, you know, someone will. So it's not hard. You know, I think it's not hard. It's not hard for any addict to find the thing. The hard thing is to not do that. You know, that's the thing. And the hardest thing, I think, is to not see, is to be able to see where you're setting yourself up, where you're in dangerous territory. You know, where you are not putting yourself in dangerous circumstances. you know for an alcoholic that might be mean like I don't hang out in a bar like I'm just not going to do that to myself I'm just not going to put myself in that circumstance when you think of that younger Liz in Bali on the eat pride love train you know doing the meditation and you know dipping your toe into spirituality when you reflect back on that time were there lessons imparted to you then that you feel like you're only learning now?

2:20:47Yeah. And every bit of it was necessary too. There's a common question that I'm sure you've heard a billion times where interviewers will say, what would you have told your younger self if you could? And I am left with no answer, but do everything you're going to do. Like do everything you're going to do. All of it. You have to do all of it. You have to do all the great stuff and you have to do all the horrible stuff because otherwise I don't get to be here. like this is all of that is what's going to create where we are now and where we are now is good um so yeah i mean and i think i had glimmers of it you know i had glimmers of it but i don't think i believed that i mean and i felt god i've i've i've always loved god i've always kind of believed in god i've always sensed god i've always loved the wonder and the mystery of what I call God, but I've never trusted God.

2:21:40Not for a minute. It's like, I love you. Your work is great. Big fan. I'm going to control this. I'm going to control this. So I think I didn't, well, I felt that I'd had, I did have beautiful spiritual awakenings in that journey as like, I'm still driving this car and that's, you know, mixed results. That's why it's a practice of constantly turning it over and turning it over again. Yeah. And again. And again. And again. I love that the Tibetan Buddhists call meditation remembering. That's their translation for meditation. They don't have a word for meditation. It's just remembering practice.

2:22:23You just sit and remember what you forgot. Right. And some of us need it. That we are all one. Like I said, we're all just trying to get back home. Yeah. Right? We're trying to find our way and addicts, I think, are fundamentally spiritual seekers. They're looking for something. They're trying to fill that hole. They're doing it in wrongheaded ways, but they're very committed and intent upon finding answers, right? And the gift of bottoming out is that then you're blessed with this opportunity to redirect that energy in a healthy way. And a lot of people don't get that. Well, I have a funny experience.

2:23:01I totally identify every addict, doesn't matter what it is. If you're an addict, you're one of my people. I could sit on any meeting and be like, oh yeah. I don't do that. I'm not a gambler, but I could sit in a gambling meeting and I could get recovery listening to people talk about their recovery from gambling, like 100%. because I know what it feels like to think that you can get this thing somewhere. Here's who I don't get. People who don't feel like they're on fire with questions. People who are just like, kind of walking through life. And I can never tell if they're like great saints or just super checked out.

2:23:44People who are like, the new Toyota Camry is nice. And you're like, I'm looking in their eyes. I'm like, do you not hunger? do you not hunger? Are you not like, are you not baffled by this? Are you not like, and they're just like, and I can never tell like, like, what's it feel like to not have your head on fire? What's it feel like to not be famished for experiences? What's it feel like to be satisfied? Like people who appear to just be satisfied are a marvel to me. Like, I'm like, how are you just hanging out? Yeah. I mean, it's either a Buddha consciousness or it's completely, you know it's complete distraction or repression and i can't know yeah so i'm going to assume buddha consciousness because it's a more generous interpretation but like that that's what i don't get i get addiction i just i don't get i'm good you know like if you're not going to the extreme like how are you a lot you know you know people who like live in the town they grew up in and they're like, I like it here.

2:24:44You know, and I'm like, did you not want to go see the other stuff? I mean, God bless those. Did you not want to like go, like, I know it's incredible. Like, and meanwhile, it's like, I'll probably end up back in where I grew up and be like, after all that, I just circled around and came home. You had to do all those things to do. To go be the neighbor with the guy who just never left, you know? Who was like, oh, good to see you. I knew you'd be back. Yeah, exactly. Who's the teacher, Liz? Exactly. I mean, that's why those people are mysterious to me because I'm like, I don't understand. There's a scene in Ibrela with this Irish guy that I met there at the ashram who was deep on a hard spiritual journey.

2:25:22And he said he went home and he was trying to tell his father. His father was like a sheep farmer in County Cork who was like ninth generation on his land, just living in this life of routine. And this kid was just a seeker and he'd spent his entire life traveling the world. and he came home to visit his dad and he was like telling him about meditation and about India and about chanting. And his dad's just listening and like staring into the fire. And he's like, dad, you got to try this meditation. It gives you a quiet mind, dad. It gives you a quiet mind. And his father said, I've got a quiet mind, son.

2:25:56But my friend didn't. And when you don't, I think you have to become a seeker. I don't have one either. So I have one now more than I've ever had one, but you know, it's, it's an arcade in here. Welcome to the asylum. You're the best Liz. I love you. I love you too. This was fantastic. I could, I could just talk to you. I could do this every day with you. You're amazing. You've inspired me in so many ways over many, many years through not just your books, but your example, the way that you show up, your courage to be as honest and as vulnerable as you are. And this latest chapter is just a whole new level of that.

2:26:44It's really beautifully written and I think it's going to help a lot of people. So thank you for that and keep doing your thing. Yeah. I'm always here to support you. I'm such a massive fan. I just have a huge place in my heart for you and feel very connected to the mission that you're on. Thank you. an eye to yours. Let's keep going, huh? Thanks. Final thing. Is it true that you met Adam Skolnick in Bali during that Eat, Pray, Love situation? Is that fact or fiction? Not only is it true, Adam is in Eat, Pray, Love. He is? Yes. I did not know that. He is in - That I didn't know. He is in Eat, Pray, Love.

2:27:22That is like a newsflash. Yeah, it's true. All right, please just tell this postscript story quickly. My friend and yours, Adam Skolnick, I met in Ubud, Bali in 2004 and we became friends and he came to my 34th birthday party, 35th birthday party, which was held at YM, the healer's house. And he's got a couple lines in the book and we've been friends ever since. I didn't know that he had lines in the book. And do you know for when he was, he's obviously a very happily married man now, but when he was a young single man, a very good calling card to get women to like him and trust him was to say that he was friends with Liz Gilbert and that he's a character and he pray loves.

2:28:05How many dinners did you dine out on that one, buddy? How many dates? I plead the fifth. All right. Next roll on. This is going to be Explore.

2:28:22That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful.

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