Black-ish Creator Kenya Barris On Turning Down A $100 Million Netflix Deal, The Cost of Success & Curiosity As A Superpower With Malcolm Gladwell

36:03You know what I'm saying? Like what most people's dream salary is, I could not live on that per month. And they're like, oh, that's amazing. I'm like, it's amazing until you're not making that. You know what I'm saying? And then you have to realize no one's going to feel sorry for you. You have a different point of view you have a different thing and so it causes it's a it's a fear because i'm like i have to produce at such a level you know i'm saying to keep it going to keep it going and and i thrive off of that you know i'm saying i actually thrive off a sort of back to the wall you know i'm saying and i and i think the one thing that i have realized is that relationships are everything you know i'm saying and they can get you out of most situations but the way that you maintain relationships is through actually being forthright not fucking people over you know i'm saying and actually producing good material right because there's been times when you're like i'm like i'm not on a deal i'm not selling this but i'm like i can get myself out of this you know i'm saying and that's the part that i've like learned that i so i keep my mouth quiet because i'm like i can because i have not pissed people off because i've been so you know hubrisly like talked about my things people will give me things people out of so many different walks of life will you know from malcolm gladwell to two chains you know i'm saying like well come and we'll do things and I feel like it's the first time I've been in a same sentence as two chances yeah um but I feel like I respect if I if I fuck with you I fuck with you you know I'm saying like when I walked we walked out of there I told him I was like I really like him I was like if I don't I don't I don't care if people everyone else does you know I'm saying but I feel like I do believe in relationships and I believe in doing good work and I think that that is the thing that i think i know how to write pretty well i think i'm really good at like connecting people and finding the story to tell you know i'm saying i think i'm a good pitcher you know i'm saying i think more than anything i can pitch michael tells me so i love his when he talks to me about his commercials because i'm like tell me the pitch you know i'm saying i'm like it's phenomenal like malcolm's a really good pitcher and i think the thing that i kind of learned from when i learned the most important thing, and you have it too, is the most important thing I think any of us can have is a voice, right?

38:40Warren Buffett has a voice as an investor. You know, Bosquette has a voice as a painter. So, John says, has a voice as an artist or you have a voice as everyone has a, and if you find your voice, you can use that voice to talk your way through life. You know I'm saying? Because whatever situation you're put in, you now know how to filter it through your voice. So I know my voice. That's the one thing I kind of know is like what my voice is. That's another way of saying that you're operating not only from integrity, but authenticity. And that's interesting in the context of Hollywood, which is populated by, you know, many an imposter.

39:22And I don't have to tell you that most producers are ahead of themselves and full of shit and bullshitting their way until they can get something set up. And you strike me as very different from that archetype. You're a guy who closes, you're about completing the project, getting these stories told, you're not coming from a place of hubris. And I think that's a really valuable lesson because there's this sense that the way to make your way in that town is basically be full of shit. It's prized. You know what I'm saying? That's the thing. When people are actually of integrity, they get caught. You know what I'm saying?

40:06Everything that's happened for me, the biggest things, I took a gamble because I wanted to stand for something in front of my kids and I thought I was going to get fired and just lose my job when I did not, when I left Disney because they didn't want to air. And I love Bye Bye Girl. Also, I mean, is your version of that on some level walking away from the Netflix deal? I took a gamble. You had this like$100 million Netflix deal, right? I took a gamble and we were doing successful. And I don't think it was a great gamble, you know what I'm saying? But I take it and I'll take another gamble. At the time, David Nevins and the president of BT came up to me.

40:49It was George Floyd was going on. Black Lives Matter was in full effect. they were trying to rejigger the corporation. They knew that black things were now selling, that there was a DI was in full effect. Like, you know, and they were like, look, we can't offer you. You know, you're one of the people we want. We can't offer you the money, quite the money that they can offer you, but we can come close. But what we can offer you is 50 % ownership in a black studio. I was like, wow, no one's ever had that. You know what I'm saying? And there's no way Ted Sarandos would tell me no. You know what I'm saying?

41:32As much as he had done for me. At that time. You know what I'm saying? I still was like, oh, my God. But I knew I had this money and I had this place that I was going to keep making stuff. I had a hit show on. But I was like, I want to do something for us. You know what I'm saying? I want to do something. And I took the gamble. And at that same time, three weeks later, the guy who signed me was fired. Trump started like just coming in dismantling DEI the company started being sold I couldn't sell for four years I could not sell anything because they could not sell internally because they did not they were at war and within you know the red stones and the company I couldn't sell stuff outside I was lucky because I could make movies I was lucky because we could I could podcast was lucky because I could do a documentary but I couldn't sell it for four years while I was at the height of my career the height I had starred I've not only created multiple shows spinoffs but I was now starring in one that had been picked up for a second season it was people were talking about it and I could not I left it and I couldn't do get a show so because you could not sell outside of this company and the company wasn't set to sell and I was like this is a really crazy time pandemic happened writer's strike happened my father died from COVID um divorce you know I'm saying and I was like fuck like all this is going on and it's duck on water you know I'm saying you got to kind of you know go smooth but your feet are you know flapping underneath and I kind of feel like it was I think that same sort of thing of I because I hadn't talked too much I was like I had other projects lined up that were I knew if I could get them across the line at least I could get on to this so I kind of think like that was and the voice was the important thing I knew if you came to me with something I knew how I was going to approach it you know I'm saying I don't have to rethink I know sort of my voice how that's going and that's the biggest thing if someone gives you a project you know it's it's glad well in like you know like the the engine goes through now you know you're gonna do the work but the knowing the engine that's going to go through makes it a lot easier when you approach whether a good when you have a when an idea comes to you you know who you are and you're like this sounds on brand for me or this doesn't sound on brand for me you know i'm saying it's the difference between projection and reality like hearing you tell that story you know on paper you read about you and it's like this everything this guy touches like turns into you know something fabulous and he's living this you know incredible life but the day-to-day reality and the conflicts and obstacles that you have to overcome and the the tenuousness you know of the whole thing is very different from what the normal person might imagine my son it was interesting right after my son had some issues with and he's buying me talking about because he's you know my son had some issues with young has interested with drugs you know i'm saying had to go and get some treatment and it was for me contemporarily the biggest scariest moment for me in my life you know i'm saying because this is my guy you know i'm saying at like the he's 15 you know he's handsome athletic funny dressed as well you know i'm saying you know cool but always kind of been a little bit of a messed up kind of like I was you know what I'm saying but he's like my guy and I started hearing all these things at the same time number one cause of death in this country for people under 50 overdose fentanyl number one I was like well that cannot be a true thing I was like not car wrecks like this the number one cause of death for people under 50 I'm basically 50 I'm saying like Like, Ben and I was like, and, you know, we, when I was growing up, you could experiment.

45:33You know what I'm saying? You could do this one pill and they're gone. And I saw him at the worst moment. Like, he was on some shit and then we had to go to rehab. And, like, I saw his fortitude and it re-struck in me. You know what I'm saying? Like, I have to start over too. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, we kind of did it. he came and lived with me and like we kind of did it together and I think those moments we talk about having a voice I knew how to take that story from him and like filter it through my life and like make try to like start over for myself but I think like those moments you have nothing matters when you're only as happy as your unhappiest kid you know I'm saying nothing matters when your kids And nothing, so like having that and you're like, I have to sort of like, no, I got to get him through this expensive this and pay for this and do that.

46:28You know what I'm saying? Like it's, you need those things, unfortunately, that have to happen, but you need, those are the real things that sort of fuel you. You know what I'm saying? You don't get out of life alive. It doesn't matter how gilded your cage is, you know, life has a way. When I hear stories like that, I always think about Phil Stutz. You know, Phil Stutz, the therapist in Hollywood. Oh, yes. There was that documentary with Jonah Hill, who I know you've done stuff with. I had him on the show. He's had a profound impact on me, but he always says, and I've said this before, you know, he treats all these like very successful people like yourself who are also tremendously unhappy.

47:07Like if Hollywood is anything, it's populated with the very unhappy, successful person. And it's like, why are these people unhappy? And part of it is this refusal to accept the uncertainty of life. Like if you become successful enough, you immunize yourself from these kinds of life obstacles. You don't need to work on yourself anymore. And that you will arrive at this place of happiness. And it doesn't matter how successful you are. Life finds a way of throwing curveballs at you. It does. When you hear that, Malcolm, though, like you're a guy who just does your like you're both incredibly prolific, but like you're at the coffee shop eating muffin, quietly writing, wanting to be left alone, keeping your life relatively contained.

47:56Well, making movies and TV shows is just an infinitely more complicated creative enterprise than what I do. The most complicated I get is a podcast, which is 1-5 % of the complexity. And I see it. My best friend is a screenwriter, and I watch him. That business is just hard. It's just incredibly. I don't know if I could do it. Also, in terms of uncertainty, the media landscape is just shifting. It's such an incredible rate. I mean, for a big part of your career, Kenya, it's, okay, it's pilot season. There's this sort of established way of doing things, and it's been that way for a very long time.

48:42And now suddenly, everything is up in the air. It's a whole different way of doing business, some of which is exciting, some of which is threatening. like what is back to podcasts like now podcasting is visual media like what is a podcast what is a tv show what is a limited series versus a comedy that runs for 10 years what is a what is the future of movies like all of these questions are being asked while we're seeing the ascension of the creator economy all of these youtubers we have the success of obsession and back rooms and these young directors who cut their teeth on YouTube and are now like having success in, you know, in a, in a, in, in a cinematic sense, the Emmys just happened.

49:31We've got Kareem from Subway Takes being nominated for an M. You know, it's like wild, like it's all becoming one thing. Like podcasts are becoming television shows and Netflix is doing deals with creators. Is that dizzying for you? Is that exciting for you? I mean, I know that you have like stepped into this world in a little, you know, in a new way. What do you make of the shifting tectonic plates of media right now? It was interesting. Malcolm, when we talked about like, I think the brands are really interesting. You know what I'm saying? Because we all grew up with brands. We all grew up with the Trix Rabbit and you know what I'm saying?

50:11And where's the beef? And you know what I'm saying? Like, understanding like how they were a part of our fabric but now brands are coming into you know a few years ago Saint Laurent like on the Oscars you know I'm saying they had finance all these things and you wouldn't know it unless you do so I think that that is it is dizzying and you're now realizing like you very accurately said like it used to be a pilot season that's not happening anymore you know I'm saying you don't know when there's no there's no fall season there's no winter season you know what's going on so i do think it's there's no residuals there's no residuals you know i'm saying or very little you know i'm saying um and definitely no back end you know i'm saying but i i think that keeping your mind open and seeing like how can like where's the there's always gonna be a need you know i'm saying and how do you sort of find it you know interesting podcast used to be the redheaded freckle stepchild of like you know saying tv like i'm saying it was kind of like this american life was like cool but like they weren't getting like rich you know i'm saying and now you talk to kai sinet or these guys and like mr beast like you know you're looking you're like these guys are flying private everywhere you know i'm saying um you know the cotton their comics do their own podcast and they're making own it joe rogan like you know it's like massive amounts of money i personally feel like it's interesting though because i feel like now they're opiating success opiating was opiating us with success what does that mean who are the new young stars right we're coming up we've been watching eddie murphy for 45 years you know i'm saying will smith was 19 20 years old when he just doing you know 21 years old when he did uh independence day you know uh we saw tom cruise sliding across the thing you know i'm saying we watched these guys for 30 40 years like we they've been the same people we've been watching there's timothy chalamet there's india you know i'm saying maybe you can say jacob lordy you know i'm saying is kind of there but like really bankable young stars is like there's you know maybe tom holland you know i'm saying but in general like young people are not like they don't have the relationship with holly's hollywood celebrity that we did when we were their age.

52:31It's different. It's siloed across YouTube. Everyone has their favorite creators, but there's no monoculture anymore. This affects journalism also, of course. And everything is segmented by smaller subcultures and audiences. And I think when I say opiating was for success is the guys who would be the Tom Cruises how do you make how do you find them and get them to go put the the reps in that are needed to be on a television show to become great actors to become great comedians when they can go do a podcast and make 15 million dollars a year you know i'm saying and subsequently that podcast streamer yeah a streamer you know saying and make 15 i'm saying and then so subsequent that streaming platform then when they decide to go be comics even if they're not great comics people will still go pay them 10 million dollars a year to go stop in places you know i'm saying and they and nestle will give them five million dollars to sell you know like so now you're looking up at this guy who really might have had the potential to be the next great actor or comic you know or whatever they never will become that they will be they will be opiated to a certain they'll get to a certain level and their success will not let them branch out and become that sort of like Hollywood star like that was a really important thing like a Hollywood star like we don't have a lot of young Hollywood stars Michael B Jordan's 40 something years like he's not young he's a great star right you know what I'm saying but like and he worked really hard to get there like when you see these guys now coming up it is really hard to get them to say I want to put the time I want to go work on this television show.

54:25I want to go to acting class. I want to go do stand-up every night for$10 and some wings, you know what I'm saying, and become the best comic I can be and really understand my voice. And, you know what I'm saying, I want to go audition for this role. Like, we give young streamers roles all the time. They're like, how much does this pay? Oh, I can't do that. You know what I'm saying? Because you're asking them to lose$7 million, you know what I'm saying, to come be in your movie for three months. You know what I'm saying? And I kind of feel like that has to stop. What does that auger in your mind for the future?

55:06I think that brands are an important part of this. I think that brands – so back in the day, art used to happen in salons, right? and those salons were protected by scions right who were like letting these artists go and like build you know do what they were to do and that's how great art came because they were protected by wealthy benefactors i believe that brands have the ability and have the the place to go and say you know what we want to go and give shane gillis you know i'm saying x amount of money but we want him to go do a television show, to go do this, to go do a movie. And he'll be able to, we'll still pay him this, you know what I'm saying?

55:49But we want him to, you know, put him in a situation where he can now grow to become a big star. And I think the brands are going to become more and more aware of that, that they can sort of foster, you know, like P &G used to have, like the hour, they can build their roster of really big stars that will only help amplify their brand more if they actually put the work in. And I think they're going to be the new scions of what massive Hollywood success can look like. What is your take on that, Malcolm? I'm struck by when the rules of success change, the kind of traits you need to be successful change.

56:34So when I started my career at the Washington Post, we were all embedded in a very large, stable, wealthy institution, corporation. And all kinds of people could succeed within the Washington Post because there was an umbrella and a safety net. And, you know, they gave you a space and you just plugged your story into the space every day. when you take away the institution then the only way you can thrive is if you're someone who can create that space for yourself you didn't need to be entrepreneurial to be a success in media in the 80s or 90s someone else did the entrepreneurial stuff for you now we're in this period of transition where you have to the trait you need is something that was that never was associated with writing or, you know, traditional screenwriter was the least entrepreneurial person in the world.

57:36They were just a creative person. Everybody has to, speaking of brands, everybody has to become their own brand. Has to come. I mean, you did that successfully, like, you know, the hair and like, you know, like there was a, there's a sort of Warholian like, you know, way of like establishing yourself as a persona in the public eye to distinguish yourself from the newsroom at the Washington Post. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't - I don't know if you did that consciously, but you did it successfully. Well, that was, yes. It wasn't conscious. It was a reaction to the fact that I got a job at the Washington Post when I was very young, and I didn't know, I had no newspaper experience whatsoever.

58:19They probably shouldn't have hired me. And my reaction to being in this awkward position was, the only way I can thrive here is to be different from everybody. Like, I can't. There's no way I can compete with. Bob Woodward was 10 feet from me. Like, I can't do that. There's no way. So I had to do something different. That was the kind of. It worked. I kind of would. So it was in some way, maybe not performatively intentional, but it was like you saw, I need to just be me and stand out. Yeah. It's funny. I was interviewing somebody who was a CEO of a very, very successful company. This woman has been a huge success.

59:05And she was an athlete growing up. And her dad was her coach. and she was relating a piece of advice her father gave her. And her father said to her, don't play the position you want to play. Play the position the coach wants you to play. And as she's saying this, I immediately think of my own father, what my own father would have said. And I thought she was going to say the opposite because that's what my dad would have said. Don't play the position the coach wants you to play. Play the position you want to play. And I thought that's what she's going to say. And I was so astonished that this incredibly successful person had followed this path where you do what the coach says.

59:50It was just so contrary to everything. I didn't think less of her. I actually thought more of her in a certain way. I was like, oh, my God, there's another way to do this. Well, that's how you succeed within the system. Yeah. She chose. She's a system. Yeah. And she played team sports. Right. And I never would play a team sport. No, I mean, you ascended within the system, but also distinguished yourself by being somebody who is kind of outside the system. Yeah. Right? Yeah. In thinking about like the media landscape right now, and you mentioned like benefactors and scions and how brands are kind of moving in on that terrain in an interesting way.

1:00:30It left me thinking about like the state of all the streamers. I remember when Netflix was relatively new and it was like a haven for documentary filmmakers. All these documentaries were getting platformed and mainstream audiences were developing an appetite for really interesting storytelling. Lisa. That is no longer the case. And I know this is part of your Netflix story as well. It's algorithmically driven now. And what that has done is created this vanilla middle to everything that we're seeing. but art always finds a way. And I've just been reflecting on the last week of, we're on the other side of the Venice Film Festival and Telluride, and there's this Luca Guadagnino movie about Sam Altman and open AI.

1:01:23The trailer just dropped. It's pretty transgressive and interesting. The Nathan Fielder, Lance Oppenheimer, Elizabeth Holmes documentary teaser dropped. I think there's some real artistic, interesting stuff that is happening. The point being that art finds a way. You know what I mean? The creative voice and the storytelling and the transgressiveness, all of that always ekes out, especially in times of crisis or constraint. I mean, Netflix, their evolution makes sense, but it also they are and they would probably admit this on some level sowing the seed for their own eventual irrelevance right that you if it's the life cycle of any it's the life cycle of all these places that you you you lose contact with your audience you lose contact with the creative community and you start producing everything that's vanilla and that just creates an opportunity for someone to move in you're wearing nikes story of nike right I'm wearing Tracksmith.

1:02:34Tracksmith's opportunity was created by Nike becoming vanilla. So it's a kind of, so there's always a, you're right, I think art always finds a way and we're just in this little transition period now and sorting through it. This episode is brought to you by Go Brewing. Fall is beer season. You got your game days, you got your tailgates, You got people gathered in somebody's kitchen. And here's the shift that I really love. At every single one of these gatherings now, somebody isn't drinking. Maybe a lot of somebodies. The old move was to hand that person a seltzer and an awkward, apologetic look, but no longer.

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1:04:17On top of that, the intersection of new media into all of this. I had Anand Giridharadas here yesterday. He's launching this book, but he's also launching a YouTube series along with it where he's diving into certain aspects of the investigation that's the subject matter of this book to do deeper storytelling around it. M. Night Shyamalan just launched a YouTube channel. It's so interesting what's happening, how these worlds are intersecting and congealing to create something brand new. Well, Knight's interesting because Knight was one of those people who was set up for this transition. So he was the guy who found a way to be independent, to finance his own movies, He's made them in Philadelphia, not Los Angeles, you know, or Pennsylvania.

1:05:07And stayed there, never moved to Hollywood. So he was like, when this change happens, he's like perfectly controlled his own material. You know, he is the archetype for how to kind of thrive in the, and a huge basketball fan. Too big to, he almost became, you did a podcast on him. I love Night. I know him a little now. I think he's. It was fascinating. I think he is the paradigmatic example of how you have a successful career in the arts in 2026. He should have taken my place in The Unusual Suspects season two. No, you would die. Yeah. He would be really, he's very, very charming. All right. And then you're going to connect me with him so I can get him on my show.

1:05:52Rote Stewart Little. Hmm? Rote Stewart Little. Rote Stewart Little. He's very, he's very, he will say that the reason he does all his movies in Pennsylvania is that he always wanted to be home for dinner. Which is just, it's so wonderful and a charming way to, it's his way, it's his version of Kenya's thing. It's like there's a whole complicated thing below that about it. It's about not being part of the monoculture in LA and having the way you assert control is by staying on another coast. But to frame it in terms of your family obligations is beautiful. I remember one of the scariest moments in my life, and my brother's cask, and I attest to this.

1:06:34I had left, I was leaving Disney to go to Netflix. And you talk about lessons. So I did a cover story for Log Reporter. And I'm in this incredibly expensive ripped shreds jean jacket. and I'm like doing like a cool like look into the camera it's like in the desert and it's like you know why I left Netflix you know what I'm saying I'm why I left you know why I left Disney that was the first one the next one was why I left Netflix two different covers right the net why I left Disney one wasn't as scary because I was leaving for a hundred million dollar deal and I still had a bunch of shows on at Disney I was like I'm set right the why i left netflix one was a little bit scarier and i'll tell you what happened to make it even more terrifying i remember the morning i was seven o 'clock in the morning i had done the article and i get a call and it's ted sarandos seven in the morning wakes me up i'm like oh he's like really we're the cbs of tv of tv you know i'm saying he's like what did i ever do to you but fucking make you rich.

1:07:54Whatever do you but try to like do things. And I'm like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I've not seen the article. He's like, I can't believe you put this article out. He's like, you fucked me, man. You fucked me. He was like, you know, he's like, I never tried to do anything. And I was like, I have to, he's like, you know, don't call me back. And I hang up and I'm like, oh my God. You know what I'm saying? I'm like fucking Bruce Wayne just called me like, and was like, you know, whatever. And I call it class. I was like, what's going on? She's like, let me get a hold of it.

1:08:26And they took a piece of what I said. And I was not saying it like negative. I was like, you know, they were this gunslinging things. And I came and I was like, but when I got there, I realized that they were become so big that they sort of want, they were become like, they wanted to be CBS, which is, you know, they realized that they were becoming more CBS. And that their success needed to be branched out. You know what I'm saying? And I wanted to tell different kind of stories. I wasn't saying it negatively. I was trying to say it just from a contextual place. You know what I'm saying? It was highlighted.

1:09:02You know what I'm saying? All I could hear was like he was the CBS thing, whatever.

1:09:10And I was sick. I was like, oh, my God. You know what I'm saying? I was always been such a good friend to me. It really did change my life. I love him and his wife. And I don't want to have done this. I definitely want to piss this dude off. They control everything. And I caught him. We spoke later. He called me because he's such a nice guy. He's like, look, I understand, man. He was like, I read it with context. He was like, you just got to watch yourself when you're saying these things. And I was like, I can't tell you how much you meant to me and this and that. And we have definitely done more business and become, but it was like, is it, yeah, fuck up.

1:09:49And I was talking to a friend of mine, Kevin Mischer, who used to run Universal. Good looking white guy. You know what I'm saying? I was like, man, you don't want to fucking be the dude who has that happen. You know what I'm saying? You want to be the dude who has the most proud ever dude in the world calling you. He was like, can I tell you something? You don't want to be the dude who doesn't. And I was like, that stuck out to me. He was like, the fact that he called you. He's like, you want to be in the company. You're important enough that it would bother him to call you. at seven o 'clock in the morning.

1:10:20He's like, that means it's something you're doing. You know what I'm saying? I love the 7 a.m. flex, by the way. And Andrew, so the roundabout, I was driving with my son, who's now living with me, and he's looking, and it's like Little House on the Prairie, Last Airbender, just like the most high. He's like, Netflix has become the T-Mu of streamers, right? And I was like, going back to what he was saying, and I was like, I think he would now agree that exactly what I was saying is exactly what they became. They're not the team of streamers. They're the biggest of streamers, but they may be in some aspects.

1:10:54They are now, they're Walmart and they service so much of the span that they've lost a little bit of their voice. And I think that what Netflix, if you talk to them, what they're now probably going back to doing is refocusing their aperture. You know what I'm saying? To say like, look, we have to get back to a Netflix voice. You know what I'm saying? So that moment that I started that he called me at 7 a.m. I think that was a little bit of like maybe he's starting to be right because they've become the stock has dropped you know I'm saying that stock was the best stock you could have and now you're starting to see Apple Amazon Paramount Plus what Taylor Sheridan doing is nothing short of one of the most amazing runs I've ever seen from a writer you know and but it is like he has it i asked him he was like his model is industry and guns i mean he's locked in you know it's just insane how like his his output is unreal unreal with writing sicario and hella high water he has a two billion dollar deal waiting from him in 2028.

1:12:10Wow. When he's done with this deal, they have on the hold, on ice, they signed$2 billion. They're waiting for him in Universal. What is your theory of mind for how he's able to do that? One, I don't know if you've seen him. He's vascular. He's so vascular. Yeah, he... He's very... He's got a presence. I mean, like M. Night. he's not leaving his ranch either he's not you know he's not he's not like Hollywood's coming to him now yes so he bought so but it's it's sort of like John Wells like how is this guy churning out all these scripts focus yeah you have to honestly lock it up when you you get into some grooves right where you're like you know everything you do is going to get put up right and he's in that group he knows everything he makes is going to get made everything he writes is going to get made he take he's taking it really seriously i think the idea of like it's the dude who works out you know i'm saying he was an acting coach he's fit super family guy you know i'm saying um really smart business guy has a you know business people around him well he owns this ranch and then he rents it back to the studios for rents everything on and so he's he's profiting in multiple ways without without the shows he'd be profitable the ranch is almost the size of san antonio two chicago's could fit inside the four sixes ranch he shoots 80 of his shows there you know i'm saying from the from the hangers to lawman landman lioness the the stallone show he there's a scene where i've heard that like the cattle they'll freeze frame this and and they'll circle all the cattle and they're charge her back as extras.

1:14:01Uh-huh. Because it's working ranch. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's brilliant. And they paid for it. He's planted his flag. In many ways, you have done the same. You've built this enterprise that is premised on elevating the diversity of voices, Black voices. You've influenced people. Like, I know Ava DuVernay a little bit. Like she's doing a version of that herself. And it is a way of working with, but also outside the traditional studio system in order to get these projects made and these voices heard. What is the future of all of this look like? I don't know. Me and Malcolm have talked about some things.

1:14:49I really do believe brand. I really go back to that in some aspects. I do think we're going to go back to that old 50s wave. And when you used to have like, you know, Dove Soap presents the such and such. You know what I'm saying? I do think that they're going to be a major. You're seeing family offices and brands, right? Family offices are now getting into content. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. They're getting into sports. You know what I'm saying? I think that you're going to see. Did you see Founders Fund funded that mafia series on YouTube with all the Silicon Valley people? Did you see that?

1:15:26Like limited series that hit. I think in the context of brand ascension in this equation, that means that you don't have to go to Disney or Netflix or CBS. You're doing it on YouTube. I think this is the future for someone like yourself. the fourth or fifth biggest company in the world they could easily they're bigger than all the companies we want to pitch the show to they could easily just do the show right they don't want to do the show they want to be in it but received as like not like they just bought their way in you know i'm saying and they're very it's there it's a really interesting and specified way and And it's the way their marketing works.

1:16:17You know what I'm saying? And I think they're using that. And I think in success, that will be really, they'll benefit a lot from that. You know what I'm saying? From not sort of like just buying in. And they're like, their marketing works off of like legacy and people, you know, true desire. And I kind of think, you know, when you look at, I'm doing some stuff for Mike Judge and, you know, Greg Daniels. And they have, one of the shows I really love, if you guys haven't seen it, is Carter. it's either called uncommon or common side effects um it's about big pharma it's animated and it is the best thing that's on television right now it's a a guy finds a mushroom who's like a stoner right that that can basically cure anything and he becomes enemy number one to america and to big pharma and it's like there was a shit and it's like it but it's going into how we look at like how would we want a drug that could cure everything you know i'm saying wouldn't that how dangerous would that guy be but they went and they did it themselves no one bought it you would think after beavis and butthead and all this my judge and greg daniel's in office that everyone bought it they went and made it themselves and then sold it to adults one because people just weren't getting what it was and now that's their model they go they really believe in youtube you know i'm saying they really believe that that you you know have stuff youtube is bigger than all those other brands combined you know i'm saying well they don't talk about it enough you know i'm saying but like they're bigger than everyone mine so i do think the digital platform you know if you're able to find a way to run that through the machine you know i think that's the thing that they still have is the machine Malcolm, you've always been a print and audio guy.

1:18:07How does this new media landscape land for you in terms of how you think about your future projects? Are you just locked in on your way of doing things? Are you adaptable? I'm adaptable. I mean, I don't approach the question that way. I mean, you think about brands similarly to the way that Kenya does, I think. I do think, I think about it in terms of the project. So I think I told you that I had, I convinced Lance Armstrong to come to Hudson for a week. And so that's an example of a, I have a bunch of projects like that where it's dictated by what you want to do. So what's the story? So you ask yourself, sit with somebody.

1:18:50The best medium for that story. Yeah, what's the story we want to tell? How do we want to tell it? Is it just audio or does it make sense to do this? I'm open to video, but when video makes sense, if something's being, if there is something meaningful being added to the experience of doing it that way, then absolutely. But I know I'm, it's absent of real reason to do it, I wouldn't reflexively do it just because it adds complexity to my life. What is the message to the young, aspiring writer, creator, creative, given the rapidly evolving media landscape and the kind of uncertainty about how do you approach a career path?

1:19:36It goes back to what Kenny was saying about having a voice. I think in the kind of new rules, it really does matter whether there is something distinctive about what you're saying and doing.

1:19:53And that, so that would be one. The other piece would be that I think people, you have to know something. Like. How dare you? You know, like you. Tell that to Kai Sinat, like these guys. I always have people who want to go into journalism. The last thing you should do is go to journalism school. That's not what you need. You don't need to learn the craft. the craft should be learned on you can learn in any number of places what you need is you need to we need to figure out what you want to what what you want to learn what you want to know about and what you want to tell people about go to another part of the university you know or go out into the world and learn that thing but having a having a voice and having a subject are the things that i how we tell people what do you say to young young creatives have something to say you know i'm saying i think so often people are like they want to like come up with these super high concept things and like that are really cool but i'm like what is that what do you have to say through that thing you know i'm saying it's a cool idea you know i'm saying but what were you trying to say through that thing you know saying and i feel like how the difference between back rooms and obsession right using those two models that kid who did obsession had been making comedy sketches and you know things and then he did the chair thing he had something he wanted to say he's he's commenting on our current culture in a subtle way yeah through that not so subtle way you know like and he's also like sort of almost trolling you know i'm saying and it paid off you know in a monstrous way and i feel like that's a kid i would be looking at because he has something to say ryan coogler always has something to say you know i'm saying and he does it also you know also also with the expertise of a savant level auteur you know i'm saying like the idea of you know you hear him and he's everything's purposeful you know he came on with corn rolls he has a bay area accent you know i'm saying dean daly who ran usc was like he's one of my favorites to never because he was very aware he's an ex-athlete so he's disciplined you know what I'm saying he came on and he did a added like a daishiki on with like bear accent corn rolls and he goes and does this viral meme about film formats I know I remember that and it was brilliant because he wasn't trying to be someone else you know saying he wasn't trying to he didn't check doesn't change the way he speaks he doesn't change you know he goes in his own perfectly suited authentic self way and explains film formats in a way that I've never heard it explained it was brilliant and so many people I saw some of my friends particularly white friends who were like but this guy like you know what I'm saying like they didn't want to say it you know what I'm saying but they were like this isn't what I expected you know what I'm was going to get that response.

1:23:20And it actually drew more people to him and to him, what he was saying. And I was like, just have something to say. To me, that video that he made was a way of informing people. You think, you know, something about like what goes into making a project like this? Cause people are like, Oh, I could write that. Or I could write it. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like you really don't. And he's establishing not only like his skill as a filmmaker and his knowledge of, you know, camera lenses and formats and all that sort of thing, but also his incredibly astute sense for understanding what audiences want in high concept material and using that as a vehicle to share a message.

1:24:11Like his personal point of view, you know wrapped up in this kind of trojan horse of a you know like a superhero movie for example um and he's unlocked something incredibly powerful with that like you know he's i can't wait to see what he continues to make it subverts expectations you know i'm saying yeah like and there's something really powerful when you subvert expectations you don't feel like this is the person who's going to say that it makes you listen even closer you know i'm saying when you hear that you're like oh my god like i i didn't know this about film but i definitely didn't think this person was going to tell it to me and so you even listen a little bit closer right like this is the last guy that i thought would be the most articulate on this very very weird subject when balwin went to you know the uk and he did those debates he knew what he was doing he knew that he was going to go and be fish out of water stick out subvert you know i'm saying and tore them up and it wasn't just the fact that he you know it was the fact that he was doing it from a place of like you're not going to expect this you know i'm saying like it was it was showmanship it was pt barnum you know i'm saying like he could have went here and went up against some people who It was sort of like, we went to a place that doesn't have, they didn't perpetrate slavery there.

1:25:37You know what I'm saying? He went back to a country that maybe they might have started colonialism. But like, he ate them up and he did it in his own way. And it made it, that was a moment in history that you were, I can watch it over and over and over and over again. And then what is your version of that? How do you channel that into your work? I'm trying to do, I'm doing Truman Show. i'm doing the Truman Show over at Paramount and like a reimagination of that the reimagination of the Truman Show and then my Truman Show that's ballsy because that was a very successful movie it was a very successful and to have the IP that was protected like how do you pull the sword from the stone from that and in my version of the Truman Show it's an alternate reality in that slavery in 1619, they turned the bolts away.

1:26:28The U.S. turned the bolts away. And so it never actually happened. So sliding doors for all mankind kind of. The Truman Show, Jamal Truman, lives in the hood. The hood is a designed version by this producer. And it's almost a cautionary tale. And people watch it everywhere like, could you imagine living like jamal truman and if you grow up in the hood you often feel like this can't be real you know i'm saying like half so it kind of takes and subverts that and people are at home you know white people are braiding black people's hair watching the biggest show on tv they've watched this kid grow up but he gets out something happens and he gets out of the truman show in the first act and so we're and so it then gets into the idea of like what would have you know what this looks at and i feel like so i say this to say like it kind of coagulates all the stuff i really feel like i live you know i'm saying and i really want to say of like getting around people's expectations what is real what is not you know i'm saying are you on the truman show are we all a part of it you know i'm saying how many times have we looked up and you know idiocracy could not be more it's there's no version of my you know saying like you know it is there's a literally a wrestling match on the white house lawn you know i'm saying like that you know and so i feel like sometime art imitates life in a really interesting way and and if you can sort of use that i don't know if you were part of it you guys but like they used to have like what the government would come and say get writers together and they would give you scenarios and they'd say if you were a terrorist how would you do this and you'd get with a group of other writers and you kind of spend all day and you give your you know version of how you would pull it off and having no knowledge of how the world works but they're like the idea of sometimes that we think about you know i'm saying far go beyond what i think sort of any planning can do you know i'm saying and i kind of think that that's what i would love to do was sort of like take the stuff that i felt like i think about in a really interesting way and how do you sort of talk about it relationships i love to talk about relationships i love to talk about monogamy and relationships you know i'm saying like it's such a judaeo-christian sort of trope that we took that seems to sort of be failing us but we like we we pump ourself up when we sort of stick to it, right?

1:29:07And it's like, well, why is it so hard? You know what I'm saying? And then when you don't have it, you're like, I wish I could just have this one. There's this thing, you know what I'm saying? Like marriage, 56 % of marriages, I think 55 % of marriages ended in divorce, yet and still you invite all your friends and family to your wedding and spend all this money. If 55 % of the time a car blew up when it drove off the lane, would you tell all your friends and family to come watch you drive the car off the lot? I'm saying? Like it's, there's all these things that we do that we're not really like looking into.

1:29:40You know what I'm saying? And I love to sort of tell those type of stories. What is the impetus for this podcast series, Unusual? Like what animated you about doing this and what are you hoping to explore that's different than what you do in your respective of day job roles well it's you know the interesting thing to me was that the that we're drawing a lot of these people from our respective worlds and so it's a chance to kind of eavesdrop on another world and um so some of the guests come from kenya's circle and they're not people i would otherwise ever have a chance to sit down with and and i think he would say the same of guests that come from my circle.

1:30:30And I think the, we are trying to get beyond the, there's a very kind of tight definition of what a guest is on chat shows, always has been going back to Tonight Show and, you know, beyond. And we're just trying to push the envelope of that a little bit and give other people a voice um and i think that's we've been we've been i think that's that's part of what makes the show as fun as it is it has a little bit of a distinctive um uh it's an expression of our interest in um in difference i agree i think looking at the sort of shared humanity that each of our guests finding that thing that there's a shared humanity that we all have you know i'm saying there's something that's sort of we used to like talk about like tell me about your mom that was a modern question you know i'm saying like but there's something that sort of like drives these guys interesting there's a shared humanity to them and what makes them you know the thing that other people couldn't quite haven't quite done you know saying what makes them sort of what drives them as a successful place and i think that's always an interesting conversation everyone wants to know like what's the secret sauce you know i'm saying is it is it french dressing you know i'm saying like what is what is it and i kind of feel like um i'm i the best shows for me are the ones when i learn something and i think i always learn something walking out of those i mean you get to do that hopefully you feel like your audience can get something from it too.

1:32:17What is your sense of the state of podcasting and where podcasting is headed? I've been doing this for 14 years. You've been doing it for a long time. You have Pushkin. You have a business in this. You've done other podcasts as well, Kenya. You did another one with Audible. In the early days, it's very hobbyist. Not a lot of people paying attention to it, sort of a weird kind of almost embarrassing form of media. Now it's become this incredibly powerful mainstream form of media where video has become almost essential to the success of a show, particularly any kind of new show. And there also is a sense of audience saturation with this.

1:33:08now just your social media feed is like people talking into microphones. And maybe we've had enough of that while also understanding that two people talking to each other is never going to go out of style. And we crave that and we have an appetite for authenticity and the exchange of ideas. But it feels like we're at this inflection point in terms of where this is headed and what the future of this medium looks like? I don't have any crystal ball about where it's headed. I am interested in the idea of whether it can be integrated with other media forms. So when I think about writing a book, for example, I never think about writing a book without also thinking about the role that my podcast can play in that.

1:34:02I mean, you've really up-leveled what an audiobook can be. You know, like that is a huge contribution to society that you have made, like rethinking that format. And that, yeah, I made a, so audiobooks became narrative podcasts in my just extended narrative podcast. And then I've also been using, the bigger thing that I strongly believe is that historically magazine articles were the training ground for book ideas. If I went, if you look at

1:34:42Two-thirds of the nonfiction books on that list began their life as a magazine article. That world has gone away because magazines don't really play any meaningful function in the culture. But podcasts can serve the same function. And now what I find is what I'm doing with my podcast is I am trying out ideas and stories and then picking the ones that work and turning them into books. So viewed that way, the podcast doesn't have to stand on its own as an economic entity. It's the minor leagues. And you can, I don't mean that in a dismissive way, but it is a place where I have a warm, loyal audience, and they're willing to try stuff out with me, and I can assess what works and what doesn't, and then take those stories and elevate them in some other form, downstream form.

1:35:37It's a spoke on a many-spoked wheel. Yeah, I think that it will, if you think about the magazine world analogy, then a lot of podcasting starts to make sense, or at least the kind of narrative form of it. But even the non-narrative form, it's, you know, we're constantly testing and evaluating talent, ideas, stories that we can repurpose some other form. You have any thoughts on that, Kenia? I think that the future of it is for me is congealing all the things that Malcolm just talked to into like how do you now race because what you said it was just audio. They're basically now video. You know what I'm saying?

1:36:28We're seeing our shows. so now knowing that there's an evolution getting ahead of what's the next evolution you know i'm saying like it is sets are becoming better you know graphics are becoming better you know i'm saying would be how do you sort of do that and not lose that sort of the the magic of it and i kind of think that's what i would love to sort of because he just talked about magazine i really want to bring back magazines you know and i think that the way to do it is maybe through a podcast format you know i'm saying because i i would love to go get gq or you know i'm saying this and just look through and see what's going on or whatever it's it was such a pure form of writing you know i'm saying and i kind of feel like that's what podcasts are you know i'm saying it's a lot more you get really it's a lot purer form of communication so if you're able to do it at a weight fast enough and keep you know people in it i think that there's something in that Awesome.

1:37:25Well, it's been awesome to hang out with you guys. The Unusual Suspects, an Audible original podcast premiering September 10th. It will be up by the time this goes out. I love being a guest on your show. I'm delighted by both of you guys. I'm inspired by your creativity and your, um, and, and just the, uh, contribution that, that, that both of you have made to culture and society is really inspiring. So I appreciate you spending the time with me today. Thanks you guys.