Chelsea Sodaro’s Biggest Victory Isn’t Kona—It’s Her Well-Being

29:18And I felt like I was missing the 2020 season and I couldn't miss the 20, like all of the 2021 season. And so there was already this level of pressure on there that I needed to get back to work. And things were challenging from the beginning. We spent less than 24 hours in the hospital. My daughter hadn't latched properly by the time we were discharged, and I felt like we were kind of just being, like, kicked out of the hospital. Like, everything seemed fine, and everything was not fine. And within a couple days of my daughter's birth, she was below the 10th percentile for weight, which is very scary.

30:00We couldn't figure out how to breastfeed, and I think a lot of mothers experience this. You have this idea of what parenting is going to look like, what breastfeeding is going to look like, what kind of raising a child is going to look like. And it becomes apparent very quickly that it's not about what you want. Like, there's two of you that have to work together. And it was so gnarly. I mean, like, we were feeding her with a syringe. My husband would leave at 4 in the morning for Fire Academy and get home at 7 p.m. our kid wasn't eating like I was in yeah with the lactation therapist every other day I'm starting to develop this pretty severe anxiety probably related to the sleep deprivation and the stress of like trying to feed my kid and um it was kind of like yeah a spiral from there and I think I felt a lot of pressure to be excellent.

31:01Like that's what I do. I work hard and I set goals and whatever I put my mind to, I can accomplish. And like, I'm an Ironman athlete. I can tell you with full confidence that I've never worked harder at anything in my life than trying to breastfeed my child. Wow. That's humbling to hear. And it took a long time to kind of solve that problem and find somebody who understood what was actually happening. Yeah. Well, we didn't solve, I mean, we didn't solve like the breastfeeding problem. We learned that she had a posterior tongue tie and we found this pediatric dentist. It was very expensive. We had to pay for all this stuff out of pocket.

31:37And that ended up being a really traumatic experience because he, he like did this laser procedure where they like open up the tongue tie. And when we went back to do her follow-up, he just reached into her mouth and ripped up her tongue and reopened the wound on a, you know, 10-day-old baby. And that was, like, quite upsetting for me and the state that I was in. This is the first time I actually remember this fear that was developing of mass shootings. And I was in this dentist's office, like so afraid about something going down. And yeah, that like evolved into this whole anxiety situation for me.

32:28How long of a period of time did that unfold in? Like you said, like you've always been sort of an anxious person, but there's a difference between, you know, some level of low grade anxiety and something that is severe and chronic that's escalating into a lot of kind of irrational fears that are debilitating you. Yeah, I used to just call it being stressed out. And as I reflect on my life, like some of the things I've learned over the past year or so make more sense. But the, yeah, the anxiety, The postpartum anxiety was certainly affecting how I was living my life. I didn't want to go into like a grocery store.

33:21I had a really hard time being in enclosed spaces, which became tough since I had to go to the doctor's office so often. So I would just be in the waiting room with Skye, like crying, waiting for them to let us in the room. and I would always be checking for exits and how I was gonna get out of places. So I was having to confront this a lot because I was always in the doctor's office and I realized that I needed to get some help. So I - And this is before the 2022 Ironman World Championships? Yeah, I was probably six weeks postpartum at this point when I thought like this isn't right. it's like affecting my day-to-day life I'm not as happy as I expected to be like having just brought my daughter into the world you know you think like you have this new baby and you're so in love and you should be so joyful but I wasn't I was super anxious and I tried to get like some sort of mental health help through my insurance and this proved to be virtually impossible to get everyone on the phone.

34:32Anyone on the phone, it was a nightmare. Yeah. And this is in 2021. So kind of peak pandemic. So many people are in mental health crisis and I wasn't able to get anyone on the phone. So I seek out an EMDR therapist who was close to where I lived at the time. And it was very expensive. I was paying out of pocket, but I was really desperate. And someone had told me like EMDR will be a great option for you because obviously there's some like trauma there and they can teach you to like retrain your brain, rewire your brain. So I thought, great. And this lady, you know, agreed to take me on. And I felt like optimistic when I first went in that I finally was able to get some help.

35:22But once we got into things, I felt a lot of judgment. Like my, you know, my issues weren't valid and that, yeah, I was just being totally unreasonable, which isn't something. That's like the antithesis of how you should be welcomed into the office of a mental health practitioner, right? It's about non-judgment and understanding and creating an environment where you feel safe. Right. How are you supposed to heal if you're threatened when you go there? Right. I almost got this sense that like my issues weren't bad enough. Like it wasn't like traumatic enough. And of course, like, I don't know what other kind of patients.

36:09Or you're lying and you're not telling the truth about the real trauma that you're hiding. Yeah. I don't know what place she was coming from, but I did a couple of sessions with her. And then I had to go to training camp and I was like, thanks for the help. This has been good, but like, I gotta go, I gotta go work. And so you got no relief from that modality. No. And I kind of thought like, I've tried, I guess like, yeah, my issues aren't serious enough. I just need to like figure this out and I'll, you know, do some meditation and hopefully it gets better. Yeah. You tapped into some Vedic meditation, right?

36:47I did. You got your mantra. and the whole thing? I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was connected with this amazing teacher in Marin County, like right before the pandemic, which was certainly a gift. But I think you can't always exercise and meditate your way out of a mental health crisis.

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40:43I'm curious around the training piece because I would presume as a competitive athlete like yourself, on some level, you're harboring this belief that you can just train your way out of that. Knowing that, like you said, I need to train to feel like myself. Like I understand that. like we were sharing before the podcast and I was telling you about my lower back that has me sidelined more than I'd like right now. And when I'm not able to go out and push myself, I don't feel like the best version of who I am. My brain doesn't function the same way, et cetera. But play that out to the extreme, this idea that, well, if I just get back to doing what I love and I can kind of control that environment that all these other things will get resolved that way.

41:34Yeah. Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head. I hadn't been able to do my job for a year, basically. And I felt a real pressure to get back to work and to racing. But I also felt like I needed to prove to myself that I could still do it. And if I could still compete, if I could still train like I wanted to, then things would get better. And I would feel like myself again and everything would be fine. And there were certain stages between that initial postpartum period until the Kona win where I convinced myself that it was fine. But at some point you realize you're going to need something more.

42:17Yeah. When I was at the awards ceremony at Kona in 2022, I turned to my husband and I said, how are we gonna get out of here if someone starts shooting up this banquet get out honest yeah and um that's a problem i think when you can't enjoy the special moments of your life it's not good when you can't be present enough to appreciate like the experiences and and people around you, it's a problem. I'm so sorry. Like that's so painful to hear. Thanks. I, I, I feel that, and this is why I'm so transparent about these things. I feel like so much of this could have been prevented if I had had access to help initially.

43:19And I don't want other women to experience what I did. And, like, I have, I'm a middle-class white woman. Like, I have a lot of access and resources, and I still, like, couldn't get a therapist on the phone. And, like, I had to advocate so hard to get, like, treatment for my kid, you know? And it shouldn't be that way, especially when you're in such a vulnerable, like, postpartum state. when like you should just be enjoying your baby. And it doesn't seem like that big of a problem to solve. And yet our healthcare system is so upside down and Byzantine and disorienting. And all the help that you need is on, you know, the other side of your premiums.

44:07Like it's like when you really need help, it's always the thing that's not covered by your insurance, you know? You know, I can't imagine how challenging that's been for you. and it's actually reflecting on it and understanding it a little bit better beyond kind of like the articles that are on the internet about this. It's absolutely mind blowing that you won that race in 2022, that you were Ironman world champion given everything that was going on. It's not like you had some kind of perfect season leading up to this. Like you were going through a tremendous amount that would have derailed the strongest person in the field.

44:50Like, it's really quite stunning. Thanks. I, like, I don't feel like a victim in this situation. I don't mean to portray you. Yeah, no, I know. But I, like, I think that there's, you know, there is a really, like, happy ending to this story. And I am in a good place. And I was able to get help. but I think that, you know, like I won that title in spite of a lot of obstacles that I faced and I am like empowered by that certainly. But I also think like, wow, I wonder what I could have done if I was in, you know, a really like positive, happy space. Right. You make this decision to not only seek help, But as you mentioned earlier, to be public about it, to be transparent about it, to share what you were experiencing, which is a pretty bold move for somebody who's still in the sport, and the sport is a mental game as much as anything else.

45:58Like to be that vulnerable, you're letting your competitors know that you have chinks in your armor. So obviously there's a broader intentionality behind this, But when that article in the New York Times came out by Matt Futterman, he's a friend, he's been on the podcast, shout out to Matt. That was really powerful. Like that's you like in the largest newspaper in the world, like being really open about private matters. So walk me through why you made the decision to do that and what your kind of hopes were for telling your story in such a vulnerable way. I oftentimes train in my parents' garage in Davis when I want to get out of the winter in Reno where I live.

46:48And my dad sets up all of my second and third place trophies right in front of where I can see, I think to piss me off a little bit. But right on the wall behind these second and third place trophies is a quote. And it says, we make a living by what we get. we make a life by what we give. And I come from a very service-minded family. My mom is a family doctor. She went to med school when I was one. And so I've gotten a front row seat to this incredible woman who chose this career and motherhood simultaneously and had to navigate all of those challenges that come along with that pursuit at such a high level.

47:33My dad is a high school teacher or was a high school teacher before he retired. My brother is a special tactics officer in the Air Force and my husband is a trained firefighter. So I'm - Everybody's in public service. And you're in the most selfish pursuit of all time. Exactly. Like the most selfish sport. You have to balance this equation somehow. Exactly. And so this has really bothered me, like this selfish pursuit. I mean, it's all about me and optimizing my training and my life and my performance. And I've had a hard time wrapping my head around that. And so now that I have this, now that I kind of earned this platform, for lack of a better word, after the Kona win, I thought, like, I need to do something really good with this.

48:15and Matt Futterman, who's just a really wonderful person, reached out to me after the race because he wanted to do this story about my coach, Dan, and our international, intercontinental relationship because my coach lives in New Zealand and I'm based in the U.S. And we had a chat about Kona and how the race went down and my training set up. And he said, I'll call you in a while to check in and see where the story's at. And he called me in January of 2023 and he said, Hey, Chelsea, how's it going? What are you up to? And I was like, things are okay. I kind of had a rocky road after Kona, but I'm good now and excited about the season.

49:01And he was like, what do you mean things are okay? And I said, well, if I talk to you about it, are you going to write about it? And he said, maybe that's what I do. And for whatever reason, I just was super honest and kind of told him this story about my postpartum anxiety and depression and this path that I traveled towards getting help with the psychiatrist that I found in Reno. And that's what the story was about. and I was quite nervous for it to come out because like people, some people who are like, you know, good friends or family didn't even like know what was going on and it was very public.

49:44But I think from my perspective, you know, if it like empowered one person to reach out for help, like job done was worth it. and it was also really freeing for me in some ways because there's so much shame around mental health there's a lot of stigma and I was able to sort of let go of that in some ways because I had nothing to hide I didn't have to perform anymore and around this like Kona time period and and right after the win, you know, I was getting a lot of media attention and I felt this real dissonance between my public life and what I felt inside. Yeah. And I think that just perpetuates the cycle.

50:36Right. And so when I was able to just like say, lay it on the table, this is what it is. Like there's a catharsis and then suddenly that dissonance dissipates because you're integrated, like how you're holding yourself out publicly is actually who you are. And I would imagine lightens your load a little bit. I think so. And I really feel like we're here to help each other out and make things a little bit better for each other, a little bit easier. And I don't think I do that by swimming and biking and running, but I can do that by being open about some of these things. And it's been really amazing to connect with other women and moms and parents and feel like, I'm maybe like part of something that's bigger than myself.

51:30The press onslaught in the aftermath of 2022 was this kind of incessant celebration of you as the new mom, right? You become this sort of role model and inspiration to not just female athletes, but like young moms across the world, like this notion, like you can do both, you can do it all. And to internally feel that you're struggling and then to look at that must be strange, but also this call to service, like this idea that suddenly you have this platform and this microphone because of this win, it's put you in a position where you have leverage to kind of lean into that service piece,

52:16which looks to me like it has two avenues. On the one hand, it's about equity in sport and how can we create a more welcome on-ramp for girls, women, females in sport, in triathlon, et cetera, equity with respect to the professional aspect of it. And we can get into the business aspect of what that looks like. And this is all on the heels of, of kind of what happened with Nike and their pregnant athletes, et cetera. Like it's a new era. There is a lot of education and awareness around this. And with that opportunity to kind of write a new script. But the second piece being this whole idea around mental health that for you has its origins in your motherhood and in your pregnancy, but actually as a much broader conversation around how we normalize, you know, what goes on inside of us internally.

53:14But to come out and say, you know, you were scared of going to public places because there might be a mass shooting, like that's a heavy, that's heavy. Yeah, I think not to get political, but like we have some serious issues in this country. And yeah, like I won't get into gun control here, but we are not, like, this country is not set up for moms. There, like, is still a massive gender pay gap, which is, you know, like, that gets worse when you have a baby because you're out of the workforce for a period of time. You miss out on experiences, promotional opportunities. And we have a huge maternal mortality crisis.

54:13Access to childcare is horrific. And I really think that sport is a microcosm of society as a whole. And that's why I do think it's important for me to talk about my experiences and what could have made my experiences better. Because if we can do that in like the arena of pro sports, when our bodies are our commodity, what could be possible outside of sport in other industries? The Alison Felix and Kara Goucher situations with Nike created massive awareness around this. And, you know, I think a lot of companies now understand that they have to address these concerns from a place of greater equity.

55:04but what is your sense of how progressive it is right now? Like what has changed for the better and what still remains to be done? A lot of people talk about how equitable triathlon is because we have equal prize money at most races. But I think if you peel back the curtain a little farther, it's not as equitable as one may think. we're under NDAs with all of our contracts. It's hard to know what maternity leave policies look like from company to company. If you do choose motherhood, you may or may not get paid. Of course, you do miss out on prize money and race bonuses while you're pregnant and on leave.

55:57And I have felt so fortunate with the people that I do work with, how they have embraced me as a mother, how, you know, we have worked together to form like fair maternity policies. But I still don't think that is like standard practice across the industry. It's so important though, because as female athletes, like we peak in our mid to late thirties and we're so valuable. Like the spending power of, you know, moms in this country is massive. So around the world is massive. So it just like makes sense from an economic standpoint. It's a matter of the decision makers deciding that they want to invest in that.

56:49Well, you're almost like a case study in that, because you being this new mom who wins the Ironman World Championship makes you an extremely valuable commodity because your story transcended the sport. It's one thing to win that race. It's another thing for normal people who don't care about triathlon to care about that athlete and that story. And that was something that you succeeded in doing. And I think that speaks to the possibilities of motherhood and competitive women athletes at the elite highest level of sport. And we should just call out like your partners because they're great. And I share a couple of them on of course, amazing.

57:32We have teammates Rich. That's right. Yeah, I'm running way behind you, but on and also Canyon, your bike partner. I mean, they're both really cool, amazing companies that are very progressive and are comprised of extremely talented people. Absolutely. And they've both really been along on the ride with me this year. It's been, I feel so supported as a person and it's been kind of an up and down season, but I felt like, yeah, really empowered and supported through it all. And I think we are in it together and there's a story to tell beyond just, you know, the race results. Right. And we all believe that my best performances are ahead of me.

58:24But in order for, you know, fans to get attached to athletes, you have to tell the story along the way. And that's been a fun journey. It's just as important, if not more important, than where you finish a race, like where on the podium you stand. I think that people want to see themselves and, you know, they're sports heroes or in professional athletes. And triathlon is so cool because of our, like, proximity. Long-distance triathlon is so cool because of our proximity to the amateur field. Like, we're all out there racing together, experiencing the same things, maybe at different speeds, but, like, the pain is the same across the board.

59:05And it's interesting. I think that sometimes women, like, we feel like we need permission to carve out time for ourselves, especially when we're moms. Like, the mom guilt thing is real. And in a small way, I think that I've been able to help some women understand that, like, they deserve this time for themselves. and that like doing things outside of parenting, doing things that like light you up as a person and makes you a better mom, makes you a happier person. Yeah, so that you're not like when you're out training, you're not guilt-ridden because you're not with your child and being the best mom that you can.

59:50And when you're with your child, you're not guilt-ridden about not pursuing your sport because that's your job. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like I still struggle with these things. Yeah. A lot of the time I still struggle, I'm still figuring it out, but, you know, I want my daughter to see what it looks like to follow your dreams and go all in on what makes you feel alive.

1:00:18There's an interesting kind of dynamic at play when it comes to someone like yourself, like a mother of a young child who also happens to be an extraordinary athlete where someone like myself or a member of the presser the first question is always gonna be like, how do you balance, how do you do both? How do you be a mom and an elite athlete? And on the one hand, that's super annoying because no one asked the males, like how they're a dad and do it, it's just not. But on the other hand, there is something really different and unique about motherhood, especially in those early years, like that bond and it's different for you than it is for the men.

1:01:02And that is worthy of a conversation. but the treatment or the, I guess the way in which, you know, that kind of inquiry is dispatched towards someone like yourself probably isn't handled as delicately or as deftly as it should be. Yeah, there's certainly a nuance, but I'm not necessarily offended because I think that a lot of women want to know how to do all of the things. And I don't believe in balance. I don't really have a life outside of my family and training. You know, I train 30 hours a week and I have a toddler who goes to bed at eight and who takes a nap in the middle of the day. So there's not a lot of, yeah, space for much else besides those two things.

1:01:51And that's the phase of life that I'm in. And that's what I've chosen to do. But the way this all happens is my amazing co-parent and my husband, Steve. And he's just like the most selfless person and has really gone all in on this with me. And I would have quit triathlon so many times or I did quit triathlon so many times. But he's always encouraged me and said, like, you just need to keep on give it one more try. and like, you're gonna be amazing and just hang in there. But he, you know, he actually left his job this summer because I'm competing internationally. I have to go to all these training camps and I was traveling with Sky and he was, you know, he's a firefighter, so he has this very bizarre schedule and we had a hard time, really hard time finding childcare.

1:02:48So yeah, he's committed to working with me on a day-to-day basis in my career, but also as a parent. So he's a really, really unique and special guy. That's pretty cool. Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah, very cool. Well, you seem like you're in a really good place right now. And I'm reflecting on Matt's article in the New York Times, which paints a pretty, there's a, it gets pretty low and dark, like some suicidal ideation, your experience, you know, kind of flirting with SSRIs and not getting any kind of results. Sure, Vedic meditation, great. Like getting back into training, that's all good. But how did you find your way forward and begin to kind of crawl out of that darkness?

1:03:39Yeah, I had gone to see this physio that I worked with for many years after because I want to check in on, you know, my like body post Ironman and make sure things are firing well. And he did some like biometric testing on me where I laid on the table and he hooked me up to, I think a hurry monder and a sweat test. And he was kind of taking me through these scenarios. and I was asked to visualize like a really stressful situation and you would expect my heart rate to skyrocket and like my sweat rate to increase but my heart rate just stabilized and he said that's really weird like you shouldn't be so like that shouldn't be so normal for you and he said I think you need to like and I had told him about some of the anxiety stuff and he I was like, I think you really need to get some help.

1:04:38Like, it's not normal that you are having a hard time going to the grocery store. You shouldn't have to live this way. And so he found me a psychiatrist in Reno where I live. And so it kind of took somebody else finding this person for me. And again, it was like really expensive. I paid for it all out of pocket. And I only say that because I think it's important for people to know like how hard it is to get like mental health treatment. And like we talked about, when you're at your kind of lowest low, it shouldn't be so difficult to like get an appointment or get something. And when you're in that state, you don't have the facility or the capacity to go on this like diligent hunt for the right person.

1:05:22Exactly, exactly. So luckily this woman who I found was an amazing fit for me. And she's actually worked with a number of Paralympic athletes, which is a little bit different from what I do, but she still had this understanding of what I had accomplished and what I was trying to achieve. And so she didn't just say like, stop training and like work on your mental health and go from there. She understood what I was doing for work. And, um, I, I was talking through her about my symptoms and our first appointment. And she said, I think I know what's going on. And I was like, what are you, like, yeah, I'm anxious.

1:05:59What do you mean? What's going on? She's like, I think you have OCD. And that was very alarming for me initially. I think it's scary when you have sort of a label to an illness. But as I reflected more, I thought, okay, this makes a lot of sense. And with OCD, we often think of like incessant hand washing or, you know, like tapping on doorknobs or these little like ticks but for me it was you know an inability to like control these obsessive thoughts that were happening in in my mind like the mass shooting thing and and the thing about OCD is that if you don't treat it it just kind of like permeates into all these different areas of your life so I was having a really hard time getting on an airplane and um I was really like starting to get paranoid about certain things.

1:06:57And so it was like going beyond just this one initial thing. And, and so she taught me some like strategies that I could use to like help and also put me on a really low dose of, of an anti-anxiety medication, which terrified me. There is like so much stigma around, um, medication. And I had all of these ideas of what it could do to me and how like I might gain weight and that would affect my performance. And I might like be really, I don't know, I might like change my personality. And she said to me at one point, like, what you're doing right now is not working for you. So I think you need to figure out some other strategies.

1:07:41And like, I don't care how much of this pill you take, like cut it into quarters if you need to. But this is part of the treatment. Like now this is becoming like an obsession. Just take like whatever, like take a quarter of the pill. This is part of the treatment. And so ultimately I was, you know, it's like you have to, you almost like have to decide for yourself, like I don't wanna live this way anymore. And yeah, like what other option do I have? Right. Also, what does it say about you if you have to take this pill in order to deal with this problem? as somebody who, you know, I'm sure thinks of yourself as a very strong person who can will their way through anything.

1:08:26Yeah, exactly. And I had been kind of white knuckling it for, for so long at that point, I think over a year and a half. And, and I really had this kind of like ultimate low for me where I had no joy in my day-to-day life. I was getting suicidal ideations. I couldn't really go into public places. And like, I'm supposed to be super mom, right? I just won Iron Man World Championships. You're the Iron Man World Champion, you know, super mom, you know, in People Magazine. And you can't leave your house. Right. Wow.

1:09:02So what was the efficacy of this? Like, I assume it worked. Yeah, I can pinpoint the day in my training calendar when I, when, you know, the meds kicked in. Uh-huh. It has to like titrate up for a while before you feel - I think it takes 10 days or two weeks or something. And I was telling someone the other day, I was like, I'm on a really low dose, like five, I take five milligrams of Lexapro every day. And I said to someone, I don't know if it actually is doing anything because it's such a small dose. And they said, that's kind of like, besides the point, if you feel better and your symptoms are better, then it's doing something, even if that's just a placebo.

1:09:41But yeah, it's pretty wild. I can, I wasn't able to like, I was having a hard time getting out of bed in the morning. I like couldn't go, I couldn't train. Like I was so low. I was not, I could not get out for a run. And then I can see, you know, in the calendar where like, oh yeah, I'm, I can train again. Wow. Lexapro. That's all it took. I know. No. It shouldn't have been that hard to figure that out. I know, right? But that's like, oh man. I mean, I also learned like a lot of other strategies to deal with this. I mean, is it still flare up or do you have like moments of ebbs and flows with it?

1:10:26I do. And I think it will be something that I deal with for the rest of my life. Like on one hand, it's my superpower. It's this obsessiveness makes me really excellent what I do. Like, you know, all the - Was there a fear? Like if I take this and it reduces that obsessive nature, then that's gonna undercut like what makes me great at the thing that I'm best at. I think what's really sick is I had this fear that this kind of darkness was part of why I was so driven. And I thought that if I lose that, I might not have the desire anymore. That's the great fear of every person that wanders into an AA meeting or an NA meeting, especially creative people and artists, because they believe that it is, you know, the darkness or the altered state of mind that is what is producing, what makes them unique and successful.

1:11:21And of course, that's the great lie. Like you have to disabuse yourself of that idea and realize that it's not that. Maybe there was some kind of short-term, you know, positive effect of leveraging that and kind of deploying it in a certain direction, but ultimately it becomes your enemy. And to find a more sustainable, healthy source of fuel is a pretty, it's like an awakening, right? And it sounds like you've had your version of that. I think so. And ultimately it was about more than just sport. It was really about my daughter because I wasn't enjoying her and I wanted to be present and I wanted her to feel that joy kind of emanating from me and I was really afraid that if I didn't choose a different path I would just I would not be what she deserved and and that was like my real motivation.

1:12:26It wasn't about like being able to continue on in triathlon. It was about showing up for her. Yeah. All the other people that are affected, you know, the ripple effect of somebody who has loved ones in their lives who is suffering. And it just makes me wonder or think about all the people that are walking around with some version of your condition untreated when there's a solution available, but for whatever reason, they can't access that solution or it's not available to them or they're unaware that it exists. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get diagnosed with this until I was 33 and I'm pretty sure that I've dealt with it for my whole life.

1:13:09Well, it had to be so acute and severe because from the outside looking in, you were excelling and succeeding. And perhaps on some level, that was a strategy that you developed to kind of keep it at bay or minimize your need to kind of confront it. Certainly in some ways it was working for me until it really wasn't working for me and I had to hit this ultimate low until I could or until I sought out help. Yeah, well it's really powerful for you to share it like this and to use your platform to talk about these things. And it is like a testament to that service-minded aspect of who you are and rather courageous because you are competing against these people and you must think like, well, are they gonna, are people gonna try to weaponize this against me in the kind of, you know, mental warfare of elite, you know, athletics?

1:14:07Yeah, you know, I never really thought about it in that way. I never thought like, oh, this might give my competitors an edge over me. I have this really kind of profound confidence in my athletic abilities. And sometimes I struggle with like confidence on a day-to-day basis, but like intrinsically, I have this deep belief that I am excellent at what I do. And if I am on my day kind of doing what I know how to do, I'm really hard to beat. and it'll be really hard for somebody else to get in the way of that. So yeah, it never really occurred to me that this could be like used against me on the race course.

1:14:53I was maybe more afraid of like being judged by my peers, but not in a performance sense. When that New York Times article came out, I mean, it's not like a random blog or like the truckie local newspaper, like it's the New York Times, you must have been inundated with emails or people calling you. Like what was the response, you know, from your perspective? My poor husband, I always have these crazy ideas and he's really supportive, but sometimes he has to tell me like, Chelsea, I think you don't need to do this to yourself. Do we really need this in our life right now? It's complicated enough, right?

1:15:37So about, so, I mean, I was really struggling like all through the winter off season and didn't really get my shit together until about four weeks out from my first race last year, which was Oceanside. That's when I was really able to like start training properly. And the article came out on the Thursday before the race. And that week I also there had been another mass shooting in Tennessee at a school and I decided to donate all of my prize money from Oceanside to this organization called Moms Demand Action, which is really amazing. Like they work on legislation to improve gun laws in this country to make things safer for for kids and families.

1:16:19So I did this public announcement kind of encouraging people to rally behind this organization and I was going to donate my prize money from Oceanside. And then the New York Times article came out the next day. And I think I mostly just, you know, turned social media off for a couple of days. But for the most part, it was received really well. And I got a lot of positive feedback. And social media is such an amazing way to connect with other people. but it was alarming also how many people reached out and told me their own stories with some of the things that they were struggling with. So I know that I am not alone and there's a lot of other people out there like me.

1:17:04Yeah, you're definitely not. So how do you kind of up-level this now and really kind of institutionalize this desire you have to advance the conversation around mental health and also female equity in sport? Yeah, I mean, it's an evolving process. There are some really great organizations out there doing awesome work. We spoke about my partner Canyon a bit earlier, but they're a German bike brand and they're very progressive. They've been incredibly supportive as me as a mom and we partnered together on this amazing bike, my Kona race bike. It's called the Rainbow Explosion. Yeah, it's really quite something.

1:17:52I'll like find, and there's, you know, like bike geeks, there's always pictures of, you know, people like yourself and their bikes. And there's lots of, you know, images out there of this spectacular bike. So there's so much attention on our race bikes at the World Championships. There's all these articles written about, you know, what we're running. And I thought, okay, great. Like they're gonna talk about all my components. what if we can also attach another cause to this project? And Canyon was generous enough to partner with Ann Mother. It's an organization that was founded by Alicia Montano.

1:18:27She is an Olympian, multiple time national champion in the 800 meters. And she did this New York Times op-ed in 2019, I think, called Dream Maternity, talking about her experiences as an athlete and what that it looked like when she became pregnant and it was not pretty. She didn't get great support. And so this organization, they give grants to postpartum female athletes. They work to set up lactation stations and free childcare at races and events. And they also consult with companies on how to integrate effective and fair maternity policies. So Canyon made me this beautiful race bike. It took 60 hours to paint, I believe.

1:19:13And they made a replica that we're kind of auctioning off through the sweepstakes where people can enter and win my bike. Yeah, that's pretty cool. So it was hand painted that it took that long to hand paint it. Yeah. And the best part, of course, in all of this is the people. And I've gotten to be good friends with the woman who painted my bike. Her name is Sina and she is an incredible artist. It's all like hand marbled. And we worked a lot together on, on the design. She would text me different swatches of carbon and, um, it really like came to life in this beautiful project. It has these epic DT Swiss wheels with like special pink logos and ceramic speed did a hibiscus derailleur.

1:20:01So it has all of the fancy things on there, but just a little bit fancier. Yeah, that's so cool. So lactation stations and childcare at races for women. Yeah, so - Seems like a no brainer. I think so too. I had this crazy experience a week out from Kona. I was going out for a swim, you know, at the pier on the race start, and there's this woman standing in the shallow part, breastfeeding her kid. As you do when you have a baby and you're at the beach and they need to eat. They're hungry. And I go up to her and go, are you racing next weekend? She says, I am racing actually. I qualified for Kona when my kid was four months old and I attached my breast pump to my bike and I pumped in transition so that I could like get on.

1:20:51Oh my God. With the run and the crazy, this is spooky. Wow. This is really spooky. And I don't think she'll mind me sharing this, But she goes, I just need you to know my name is Chelsea and my daughter's name is Sky. And I was like, if that's not some weird like cosmic connection, I don't know what is. So, yeah, the whole like universal synchronicity Dave Scott thing, you know, just got, you know, escalated. Right. Yeah. So I feel that it's a no brainer. I don't know. In triathlon, we do have an equity problem at a lot of these races. you know, it's 75 % men and 25 % women. And I don't think that's because women don't want to do triathlon.

1:21:34I think that it's because they don't have access or they don't feel welcomed. And things like lactation stations or things like childcare could make a really big difference just to say to mothers, you matter and we want you here and you are accepted as part of our community. Those sort of things are barriers to entry. And, you know, like I remember pumping at the start of my first triathlon postpartum and it was gnarly. And like, you don't really know how to handle yourself in that situation. And I would have used that sort of service. Right, these races, these organizations, their governing bodies, it's pretty much mostly men, right?

1:22:13Like it doesn't occur to a man like, oh, we should have that, right? Right, and that's why we - So this is part of why we - Exactly, and that's of course why, we need more women in leadership positions and women need - There are changes, like the PTO is done, you know, like they've made strides, right? They have maternity leave and you took advantage of that, right? Like, so some progress has been made, but obviously there's a lot more that could be done. Absolutely, and it's amazing what the PTO has done with the paternity leave policy, but it's also 2023. And I think that's like the tip of the iceberg.

1:22:48There's so much more. What about at the elite level in terms of how it all goes down, qualifying for a race like Kona? Has it been a good thing to separate the men's and the women's races to kind of better highlight the women's field? And is the qualification process of getting into the World Championships the same as it is for men? Because it seems so Byzantine to me and I'm not paying super close attention, but I know obviously you have to have a certain number of wins and points and whatever to qualify. And I remember maybe it was a couple of years ago that it did seem to be out of balance in terms of how that operated for women versus the men's field.

1:23:29Yeah, so we have, it's a slot kind of qualifying system where you need to place, it depends on the race and how many slots they're offering at that event, but you need to place first through third, let's say at an Ironman and that qualifies you for Kona. There's not a point system anymore. And I believe that we are getting kind of equal numbers of qualifiers now. the whole you know separation of the men and women's days and locations has been controversial but I I believe it's really important because we deserve to have the stage at the highest level of racing I think it's antiquated to think that we all need to be out there racing together you see every other professional sport and the women have their own world championships I think the The women's U.S.

1:24:19Open in tennis got better viewership than the men's U.S. Open. We see what happened with the Women's World Cup in Australia this year. I mean, stadiums were packed and sold out. And this year, more people tuned into the women's stream than the men's stream for the Ironman World Championships. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Wow. So, you know, the women really turned up this year and put on a show. I think 97 % of the athletes finished, which is super rare. And, you know, the demand is there. I think that when we are on the course by ourselves, we don't have, you know, interference from the back end of the men's professional field and the front end of the amateur field.

1:25:05And then we also get all of the media attention on us. We get proper, you know, like officiating of the race. So I think that in this next phase of growing the sport and trying to make it like a truly professional sport, we really need the spotlight. What are some of the other changes that if you had your druthers or you were the big boss in charge that you would make? I think that there is some low hanging fruit, like we talked about with, you know, lactation stations and childcare. I think that, you know, maternity policies should be standard practice across, you know, industry wide. I think that there should be, I don't know the exact details of race deferral options right now, but I think that there needs to be fair race deferral opportunities for people who get pregnant.

1:25:57They shouldn't have to feel like they need to like rush back in order to qualify for races. So in other words, you qualify for the world championships, you get pregnant, you can say, well, I'm gonna set this aside and I have like an automatic in like next year or the year after. Exactly, yeah, exactly. I think that there's just too much pressure to have to get back quickly. Right. And there is more support right now, but I think that it needs to be kind of taken up a level. Is there another sport out there outside of triathlon that you think is doing a good job or leading the charge when it comes to these types of issues that could be a model?

1:26:43Or is it across the board kind of thing? I think it's across the board. I think that the WNBA does have amazing, like has a maternity leave policy. They do things like they have an egg freezing program. The hard part about long distance triathlon is that we're not governed by a national body. So it's difficult just to decide, like, these things are not free, right? It's hard to decide who is going to, like, fund these programs. But, yeah, in my perfect world, we have an egg freezing program so that we can choose motherhood and have that option whenever we want, whether it's in the middle of our careers or afterwards.

1:27:19You know, we have robust maternity leave policies so that people like me don't feel like they need to race when they're four months postpartum. Like I would not, I don't have regrets, but like I don't remember a lot of the first year of my daughter's life because I was training so much and so tired and all of these things. So we have work to do. I have a couple of questions about training. Okay. The physical part of training, very data-driven with your coach. I'm interested in the mindset piece. Like, do you have specific things that you do to hone the mental game or mantras or tricks or a practice that you think gives you an advantage or keeps you on that fine edge of competitiveness?

1:28:11I do have some specific practices that are more kind of performance-based. This past year, I actually got into like a diaphragmatic breathing meditation instead of the Vedic meditation because I did some like testing on myself about like what would raise my HRV the most. And it was better with a diaphragmatic breathing versus the Vedic meditation. But I almost think that that was a little bit of a mistake. I have a hard time checking out from my work. And I think it's hard to recover when your mind is always on. and it's important for me to create space between like my job and my life. And so that was maybe a misstep.

1:29:05The whole idea of like Vedic meditation is that it's not about like self-improvement and bettering yourself. It's about like bettering your community and the world. And it's almost like a selfless act, whereas mine was like very performative. It's a performance-oriented meditation. Yeah, it's an agenda-driven meditation. Yeah, which speaks to, you know, the type A hyper-vigilant athlete, but is sort of at cross purposes with the whole idea of meditation to begin with. Right, and I talked to this, yeah, I know. I talked to this mental coach and he said, I was like explaining to him that kind of my protocols and the things that I do.

1:29:42And he was like, so what do you do like for yourself just to relax? And I couldn't really come up with anything. Yeah, that's not good. and he was like when is the last time you went on vacation and i couldn't remember so i am very much a work in progress uh-huh are you on vacation right now kind of sort of actually yeah sort of yeah i had 90 minutes to just kind of do whatever i wanted we are going on vacation we're going on vacation this weekend with our very dear friends um the bouleys magdalena Oh, yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. She was my - She was your coach for a while, right? She was my coach.

1:30:19Yeah. So she coached me my first couple of years at Cal. She was the assistant coach there. And talk about like luck to have someone like that come into my life. She's just the most remarkable person and has like changed the whole trajectory of my life, I think. But I got to see her qualify for the Olympics when her child was two years old. And so I had this model of, you know, what it could look like to choose motherhood and professional sport. And then she coached me when I graduated from Cal for a couple of years. And I would tag along with her at all of her training sessions. And I really got to watch up close, like, how she operated and how professional she was.

1:31:02And she's continued to be, you know, a mentor to me. And I feel really lucky to have her in my life. She's quite something. In addition to all of that, she won Western States. Like she's quite accomplished. Yeah. And what's always like so amazing to me is that she's the most like generous, selfless person. And yeah, we've talked about how selfish like endurance sport can be. And it's the opposite for her. She's so, yeah, so like giving and an amazing person. So she continues to be a model, not just as a mom and an athlete, but with that service kind of orientation. Yeah, yeah, she really does.

1:31:46And yeah, whenever I have like a big life decision, she's one of the first people that I call. Do you still tape your goals to your bathroom mirror? Yeah, I use like dry erase marker. And I have this quote that just always stays on there that my coach actually said to me when I was kind of in the later stages of my pregnancy. And it was sort of an off-the-cuff thing that he didn't think much about it, but it really resonated with me. And it says, make the most important thing the most important thing. And what he was trying to say was, like, you're going to be getting back into training. It's going to be really tempting to go all in on this.

1:32:25But, like, you're a parent and, like, your family is the most important thing. And, like, you need to stay true to your values and what really matters even when things start to get like serious with training and racing. And so that's really stuck with me. And then I write sky right underneath that as a reminder. Not that I need a reminder. I see her every day, but like I like just have it there. Just in case you forget. Yeah. And then it says true grit underneath that, which was my mantra with Magda. And then I write whatever race is kind of coming up. It's silly on one level, but I think, you know, as you're brushing your teeth in the morning and you look at those things, it really grounds you into like what matters.

1:33:06And there are so many distractions in our, in our world. And I oftentimes feel, feel so pulled in so many directions that it reminds me like I've chosen these things that really matter to me and they're hard and it doesn't leave a lot of time and space for other things, but this is what fills my cup. And this is what, yeah, makes me feel really fulfilled as a person. Beautiful. The mantra, make the most important thing the most important thing. What's great about that is that can mean whatever you want it to mean. And that definition can change with the various seasons of life. Absolutely. And for me, it even changes throughout a year.

1:33:55of course my family is like always my priority but when I'm getting ready for a race like the world championships I go all in and I'm not as present of a parent as I am during other seasons of the year and I go to training camp without my daughter and I really like focus in on this one thing that I want to achieve and when the race is over like I'm a full-time mom for a while and my focus is back on my family. So I think it's important to, for us, like as busy as we all are to like give ourselves permission to go all in on the things that matter to us and, and to not feel so much guilt and, and to be okay with, you know, to be okay with those choices.

1:34:39More than okay. I mean, it's, it's powerful counter-programming to this social narrative or social imperative that we're all supposed to be living and pursuing this balanced life. And that is where our aspiration should lie. Like every day, every bucket should be filled and you should be able to do that effortlessly and everybody's happy and your attention is diffused adequately so that all your values are satisfied. And it's not reality for anyone. And it's particularly not helpful to somebody who's prone to the extremes, who actually does their best work as a result of indulging in those extremes.

1:35:20And as somebody like yourself, whose job and whose goals and whose dreams are deeply vested in your ability to go all in in this very unbalanced way, there's an unconscious kind of guilt that you end up like shouldering because you feel like you're not supposed to be doing that or that it's somehow indulgent. or irresponsible. And it's really, it's violent and it's pernicious. And so I think it's important to not just say, it's okay for you to do that, but like to be boldly, you know, say the opposite, which is like, this is what I do. And I like refuse to be kind of corralled into feeling bad about it.

1:36:05Yes, I have other things that are important in my life, but right now this is what I'm doing. Like, are you, instead of like, are you living a balanced life? Your life is balanced in the macro, like the pendulum swinging. It's just on a day-to-day or even a week-to-week basis. It may not look balanced to an outside observer. But I think the point is that it's not about balance as much as it is presence with what is important to you, right, are you super present with what you're doing? and when that's the most important thing, giving it your all, and then you flick the switch and then you're doing the same thing as a mom or to the other things in your life that are important.

1:36:48Right, like I struggle with all of these things so much because the life that my little family lives is like very different than a lot of people in some ways because it's super extreme and we're on the razor's edge of trying to achieve these things, but so much of it is like who you surround yourself with and like them accepting you as you are. Right, they're all happy for you when you win, but there's a lot of judgment about how you're living your life in the meantime on the day-to-day. Totally. And, you know, like we've certainly felt that from our parents, like our families, and they, you know, love us, right?

1:37:24But I think it's different. It's like a different kind of life path that we've chosen. and we're not risk averse. Like we're not afraid to make bold choices and go all in on these kind of crazy dreams. And I think - Exceptionalism demands it. Yeah, no, absolutely. But I think why I do feel so lucky is that there is no guarantee that it will work out, right? And in so many ways, like this win last year in Kona, like validated all of these choices. and this like sort of crazy career path that I've been on and that like Steve and I have been on, but we have been really lucky to have, you know, people in our lives like Magda and like my coach, Dan Plews, who've like accepted us as we are and really championed this approach and gone all in on it with us.

1:38:21It's more complicated now than it was a year or a year and a half ago because there's a whole business side now that you're managing on top of just the performance aspect of being an athlete. So with the win and the success comes responsibilities and obligations and contracts and all of that that also interfere with the day-to-day kind of focus on the thing that got you there in the first place. So how do you approach that, navigate that and also keep your kind of balance and your mental health in check? yeah I mean I work with really really amazing people um and Santara group who who helped me manage that and like I just have to give a huge shout out to them because they have been along on this ride with me um they're great Adam's amazing yeah I mean they've really like championed maternity policies like they're the ones who are having those conversations saying like this is how it is and how it needs to be and so I'm super super grateful but certainly like the job has gotten a lot bigger and to have this sort of success like in your 30s is much different than you know when you're like 22 and so in that sense I'm like grateful that I maybe have this level of appreciation for the opportunities that I have what's been challenging is, you know, I have a decade of a career where I felt like I had to say yes to everything because like I was just trying to kind of scrape by.

1:39:55And I think, you know, when you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. And for me, when I'm saying yes to things, that means I'm saying no to time with my kid. And I'm like really aware that, you know, this guy is two and a half. It's super precious time with her. Yeah. And so, yeah, like I'm torn. I'm torn all of the time between my career and my kid, which is not unique to me. It's like all parents deal with these things. So it's about, of course, like sticking to my values and what matters to me and what gets me fired up. I shared with you before we started that yesterday we hosted Mark Cavendish on the podcast.

1:40:38So it's interesting back-to-back kind of elite athletes with really powerful mental health stories. Mark's documentary on Netflix portrays, you know, the high highs of his career, but this really dark, you know, kind of dip that he took and his decision to kind of transparently and publicly talk about his mental health journey while also still being in the sport and pursuing very lofty goals. And my experience of spending time with him yesterday, you know, the biggest takeaway from that is that he just feels really happy in his life and he understands what's important to him and that what he's getting to experience now is really just gravy.

1:41:24Like he loves his kids, he's had this amazing career, he's very grateful for that. He just loves riding his bike and he's excited about the season. But his relationship to outcomes and the distance that he has put between himself and like external expectations, because there's this looming thing about like breaking the record and all of that for most Tour de France wins, he seems really at peace with and right-sized about. And so as I'm hearing you sharing, I'm kind of identifying a similar sensibility in that you just are coming across like you're really happy in your life. Like you have big goals, you have ambitions.

1:42:08There's a lot of things for you still to do. You're early in your career, right? A lot of things that you are intent on succeeding at and expressing, but I feel like you're grounded and you have a good understanding of like what's important. Yeah, I think I am still very ambitious And I feel like I'm just getting started in this triathlon thing. And winning is really fun. And I want to have another big day like I did in Kona last year. I like that you admit that. It's the best, honestly. It's so fun. And it's also the best way to say thank you to the people who are along for this ride. And I want another moment like that.

1:42:53But on the other hand, I think that that win in Kona, it like made this whole project a success. So there is this level of freedom, you know, on my good days, there's this level of freedom where I feel like I kind of did the thing that I wanted to do. And now I just get to have fun and see what's possible. I I say to steve sometimes like all I All I really want is I want The freedom when I retire to take a year off and have another baby And not have to worry about like training or work so I can really like have that experience again of being fully a fully present mom with my baby and I think that You know i'm like in a position now where like that's a reality that's super cool what is it that you're working on?

1:43:48Like, what is the obstacle that's recurring for you that you know you need to work on? Like, what is next to kind of master in this equation? Yeah, I have a big bike project ahead of me going into 2024, our world championships as a nice. Does it involve somebody hand painting something for like an ungodly number of hours? I think quite - Or does it involve you pedaling it? I think more of me pedaling it But our world championships are in Nice. So it's going to be a very different kind of race than Kona. It's a super technical course with big climbs and descents. And I'm excited about that project.

1:44:25I get some criticism about my bike. Like I have not ridden my bike very well this year. But I feel, I know that I'm a really good cyclist. So I'm excited to keep on working on that and show it on race day. Because I haven't been able to like produce. Are you a good climber? I am. Like a more technical rider? because the niece will be good for that. Yeah, no, I think it really suits me, but it will require some very specific preparation, but that'll be fun. All right. Yeah. Any choice words for Lucy Charles Barkley?

1:45:00About next year? I just hope, you know, I just hope that everybody shows up because I love racing the best people on the biggest stages and there's nothing more satisfying than breaking the tape when everybody is there. bringing their A game. What to your mind is the differentiator between good and great? In triathlon or just generally? Well, both maybe. You can start with triathlon. I think what's so amazing about the women's side of the sport right now is that it's like deeper than it's ever been before. You cannot have a weakness. I think maybe a decade ago, you could have, you only had to be really good at two of the sports, you could maybe be like a little mediocre at one thing, but now you have to deliver across all three.

1:45:50You can't have a glaring. If you were a great track and field runner, you could immediately stand out, which is what you did. But that's more rare these days. You have to be able to be the best in all three. Right, like you could be a good swim biker or a good bike runner, but now you have to be a really good swim bike runner. And so it's amazing to see like all of these women rising to the occasion and the competition is so fierce. I think, you know, there's 10 women that could win on any given day. So what is the differentiator there? Assuming everybody's great at everything. You know, what is the person who only one person can win?

1:46:33Yeah. I mean, I think that we all work really hard. it's about your belief in yourself and the mental game that you bring on that day one of my coaches talked about how when you show up to a world championship like a third of the field doesn't think they can win a third of the field has like messed up their training and a third of the field actually is there to race and at this level now you have to be the full package both mind body spirit and you can't have a weakness. And so where are you finding that extra edge then? I think that I have so much like belief in my physical ability, whether that's true or not, I don't know, but.

1:47:24Where does that come from? I think from my training, you know, what I see on the day-to-day, how relentless I am, that kind of obsessive perfectionism that goes into the small details, you know, like all of the little rehab exercises that people hate doing. Like, I love doing that stuff. Yeah, you're weird. Nobody likes doing that. No one likes doing that stuff. So I just like love the day-to-day process of improving and pushing myself. I think that I have work to do on the mental game. That's where I always feel like there's something more to unlock. So what are we doing about that?

1:48:09Yeah. I was recently connected with this amazing person. His name is Dr. David Spindler. And I think that you'll be speaking with him pretty soon. Yeah, we have, I don't know if he's scheduled yet. We've been speaking to him. So he's the sports psychologist just that shows up in the Mark Cavendish documentary and was instrumental in helping Mark. That could be a good team member for you. Yeah, I'm really excited about what we might be able to do together. So I had like an awesome first chat with him, but then of course he had to like go through the different team members. So he talked to Steve and then he talked to my coach, Dan.

1:48:50And I think we're, yeah, all excited about, yeah, what we could do together. That's exciting. Yeah. The last thing I wanna ask you about has to do with change, like the nature of change, because that's sort of probably the most prominent kind of recurring theme of this show. Like how do you go from becoming one person to the more aspirational version of yourself? How do you let go of bad habits and adopt better habits? What are the things that get in people's way in terms of trying to transition or elevate themselves. And as someone like yourself, you spoke today about going from track and field to triathlon, going from short course to long course, but more importantly, weathering this mental health situation that you've had to deal with to come out the other side, a champion, healthy.

1:49:47You've earned a certain, you've earned your transformation. Like you understand the discomfort and the process of what's demanded upon you or required in order to elevate yourself out of one situation and place yourself on a trajectory that's putting you towards your dreams. Do you think about the nature of that itself? Or do you have any thoughts that you could share as we kind of close this up with somebody who's listening or watching who knows that maybe they need to change or they should change or they have an ambition or a goal, but have trouble trying to figure out how to kind of kickstart themselves into engaging with that process.

1:50:32Yeah, by nature, I, like we talked about, I'm a pretty anxious person. I obsess and I overthink about things. And when I'm making a big decision or my husband and I are making a big kind of life decision, he will always say to me, we don't make choices out of fear even when things are scary or hard like we you and me we are not going to make these choices out of fear and I think that that's something that I've did a really good job of and he and I have done a really good job of as this kind of team is even when we are afraid or things get hard, like we are able to kind of transcend that and not make big decisions based on fear.

1:51:21And basing them instead on what? I think basing them instead on like joy and love and optimism and possibility, we're not risk averse. And that's probably to a fault. Sometimes our choices have not worked out, but like in the grand scheme of things, we're living this, you know, really purpose-driven, fulfilling life. And it looks a little different than maybe some of the people that we grew up with or our families. But, yeah, I mean, it's such an exciting, fulfilling way to live. And I think that I feel so alive in the things that I pursue, even though it's not always easy. That's a pretty great place to live.

1:52:19Yeah, I mean, I think... Like win or lose, right? to know that that's the alignment that you're always kind of striving for in your life. It's inspirational. Thanks. And I'm not always perfect, right? And I fail all the time. But I think that my coach says to me, actually, it's like Winston Churchill quote. It's like, it's something to the effect of success is when you are able to go from one failure to the next without losing enthusiasm. and um like I mean most athletes right we went we lose way more than we win but we keep on coming back for more because the journey is so fulfilling and it's so fun and I have so much curiosity about what's possible and and sometimes that surprises me because like I'm 34 which is it's not like young in professional sports, but I still feel like I'm just getting started and there's so much to look forward to and so much ahead.

1:53:24Super cool. And if it doesn't work out with Spindler, your husband, you know, for him to say, we don't make decisions based on fear. I'm like, well, he can be your sports psychologist. He seems more than qualified. He's a really, he's a really smart guy. Oftentimes, oftentimes they'll be chatting through something with him and I'll say, I think that this is what you should do. And I'll be like, I don't know about that. And then I'll talk to Dan, my coach, and I'll say the exact same thing. And I'm like, you're right, Dan, exactly. That's exactly what I need to do. That's great. Such a delight to talk to you today.

1:53:53I'm a huge fan. I can't wait to see what is in store for you in the year and in the years ahead. So it was really cool getting to know you a little bit. And thank you for sharing. I think your message is really powerful. I think your instinct and your inclination to lean into the mental health discussion and really leverage your platform for good in that area and in terms of greater equity and support is laudable and beautiful and I'm at your service if there's anything I can do to help you. So thank you. Thank you. All right. Until next time, go out there and win and come back and tell me all about it.

1:54:30Sounds like a good plan. All right, cool. Peace.

1:54:38That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

1:55:23Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis.

1:56:03Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

1:56:36Thank you.