Creativity, Self-Discovery, & 'Slip': Zoe Lister-Jones Is Reinventing Hollywood

31:14Like you really lean into the glamour. Like you do, I mean like how many photo shoots a week do you do? It's insane, right? Well, right now with press, there's a lot. It's like, yeah, my Instagram is a little bit insufferable but I do love, listen, yeah. I'm a real glutton for fashion. But the choices that you make as a creative are like feel very true to the ethos of how you were brought up nonetheless. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I grew up broke. My parents were broke and they could never make a living from their art. And I think I really like bore witness to the heartache of that life. and it made me not wanna be an artist.

32:04I was like pretty adamantly like a capitalist. Like my parents were both like - It's not surprising. You know, like I was like, I remember someone asking me in high school, like, what do you, what's like your main, what do you want from life? And I was like money. And they were like, you disgust me. But I was like, I was like, I want stability. Like I don't want the life, that life that I saw because it wasn't just being broke. It was... Feeling unsafe and... Well, that, but also like the emotional component of seeing two incredible artists

32:49sort of have to abandon those dreams. that's a really painful thing for a kid to witness, you know, really porous and sensitive kid to witness that both of them had to get, my dad had a lot of odd jobs, he was a telemarketer, he worked at different magazines, he worked at a video game company. He was just trying to scrape to get by. My mom started teaching video art at Rutgers. And I think neither of them ever were able to really put the focus on their art again.

33:31And it's that sort of age old question of like, if no one sees your art, what impact does that have on you as an artist? And both of them, my mom is in museum collections and stuff, but could never make a living. And I think it's paralyzing. And I saw how paralyzing it was. I saw how painful it was. And when I got a scholarship to go to Tisch for acting, I was like, no. Like to put all my eggs in that basket. And my mom was the one to be like, no, you should, you should go. And I did. Had you been acting in high school, building up to that? Like how did that even happen to begin with? I had acted in a couple high school productions.

34:21I was really shy, but by the end of like, by my senior year, I was acting more in high school. And then I auditioned and got in and got this scholarship. And so I think also because, you know there was a financial component. My mom was like, you're going.

34:43So the financial component was almost equally as important as the idea of like, you know becoming an actress was secondary to that. Yeah, I think my mom also saw that I had love for that and didn't want me at such a young age to be so cynical. You know, like I think, and I really am grateful for her because she's a deeply cynical person, but she was trying to save me from that. And then like miraculously in one of the toughest industries, I was able to make a living from my art. And so that's all a long way of saying, I started to work in TV before TV was cool. Like I was doing sitcoms and it was not cool.

35:39It was not like something that I was necessarily I was not entirely super proud of in terms of, you know, my street cred, but to be able to make a living, like I was just like, this is the coolest thing in the world. Like this is beyond my wildest dreams. And I'm still just so grateful to have been given those opportunities and to be able to own a home, you know, like my parents never owned a home. My dad still has never owned a home. Like, so I think I've always had a really pragmatic approach to the industry.

36:23Yeah, you seem to kind of move back and forth between these worlds. I mean, like we mentioned, you did Breaking Upwards. Did that go to Sundance? I mean, that really put you on the map. That was the first thing that you and Darrell did together. Yeah, that premiered at South by Southwest. and that was our first, we made, my ex-husband and I, Daryl made it for$15 ,000. So it was a real labor of love and teensy weensy. And then it opened all these doors for both of us as a team. So we were really then billed as a - But not like a financial windfall. No, God, no. But in terms of that, like street cred, right?

37:02Like indie filmmaker, cool, challenging monogamy. This is a recurrent theme through all the stuff that you do all the way through Slip. But then yeah, like doing all this TV stuff, like you've done, like it's a rite of passage for a young New York actor to do Law & Order, but you did like Law & Order to the 10th degree. Like you did every iteration of Law & Order, like I'm obsessed with Law & Order. I've seen like every episode. I didn't know that about you. It's like a narcoleptic for me. Like, I don't know why, but like for some reason, and like when I can't sleep, like an episode of Law & Order.

37:40It's like, yeah. It just like, you know, it's, despite the fact that it's about crime and people doing awful things, it like lulls me into some kind of calm. I don't know what that says about me. So I've seen you in many different, you know, versions of Law &, like Criminal Intent, SUV. It's like, it's always funny when you go back and you watch the really old ones because there's so many amazing actors doing incredible things that you see in these small parts in Law & Order, this is kind of like a training ground. I don't know if it's still the case, like they've kind of rebooted it more recently.

38:14But I'm always amused when you see an actor show up in Law & Order and then like they show up again playing a totally different character. Like they don't care about that. No, they don't care. I think I did four in the span of like a year and a half, two years. Playing different people. Entirely different people. And they just ignore the fact that you were, or showed up last year as somebody else. Well, each one was a different franchise. I was on Mothership, SVU, criminal intent, and then a short lived trial by jury. But yeah, no, that's a total rite of passage. And that was, it is really like sort of bootcamp because you do have to embody these wildly different characters.

38:58And I remember auditioning for Law & Order and in the waiting room, there was like back in the days of VHS tapes, but like there was like a shelf of VHS tapes of every audition and it was like Brad Pitt. Like, you know, it was everyone, it was everyone. Like, and so you were seated in this waiting room being like, yes, one day. Yeah, exactly. Like you kind of have to do it if you're a young actor in New York, right? Yeah, and I was doing a lot of theater at that time too, which was really fun. And also, you know, an incredible training ground as an actor. But I think that like indie film and guerrilla filmmaking for me was, it did allow, like I was able to afford to do those things because I was on television.

39:42I think because I was bridging those two worlds, that allowed for some street cred while I was on network sitcoms. And then also the sitcoms allowed for me to go, make some really tiny things that cost nothing and made nothing. Right, but a lot of people don't do that. I mean, you end up in new girl, like I was telling you before the podcast, like my daughter Mathis is obsessed with new girl. Like that's all she, you know Mathis, like that's all she cares about. Like there's a certain generation, like for whom like that's the most important thing and the way that the office like, you know, lives in a certain head space for a lot of people.

40:24and in that sitcom world, like you could make an incredible living. You're paying your bills and you're able to create that financial stability that obviously was important to you. But it's very few people who then kind of branch out in the off season or in the, you know, kind of the respite in between seasons to go do their own thing. And, you know, the fact that like you sort of have seized those opportunities with Daryl and now without Daryl to like really make sure that you're making the most of that to build your career, to me reads like somebody who's incredibly ambitious and perhaps like creatively restless.

41:07Like you do those shows, you get paid really well, it's great, but are you really igniting your creative spark unless you're writing your own stuff and like exploring your own kind of interior or emotional landscape as an artist in these other new and unique ways and trying to kind of create a career path through that over time. Yeah, people get so easily pigeonholed in my industry and put into boxes. And so I think there was a ferocity to me trying to not be able to be put into one category too. But yeah, I think I don't know any other way to live. Like I don't know what to do with, it's not just a restlessness of spirit, but it's like a hunger to answer questions for myself that are sort of at the core of the human journey for me, like anything that's coming up, I'm a deeply sensitive and feeling person.

42:14And so I'm always wrestling with, you know, sort of deep and existential queries that I kind of only know how to answer through my writing. Yeah, you made this independent movie Consumed about GMOs and farming and soil. And that's around the time that we met for the first time. But then during the pandemic, you make this How It Ends movie, like what can we do when we're all locked down, right? And then you right slipped during the pandemic as well, like using the confusion and the isolation and kind of all the weird emotions that we were all having and channeling that into something that you could express.

43:03Yeah, yeah. How It Ends was also both Daryl and I trying to figure out how to face like God, something unprecedented that we were all just sitting around having to face ourselves. And I guess that's the most unprecedented part. And so that was the story of my character walking across Los Angeles on the last Anne Earth with her younger self and having a conversation with her younger self because I was trying to do so much inner child work at the time. And I did not know how to talk to my younger self. I still don't really know, but the movie was me trying to figure it out by actually writing a script between the two of us.

43:47Well, what does that look like? Like we were joking again, before the podcast, I texted Whitney Cummings, you were in her show Whitney, you know, Whitney better than I do. But I was like, Whitney is always coming in. What should we talk about? And it's like all about trauma and her child, you know, like she wants to go right to the psychology of everything. Right? Like Whitney. I know. So that inner child work or even like kind of not just childhood trauma, but like the adult trauma of like experiencing COVID and exploring that through art. Yeah, I mean, we've all got just children wailing inside of us.

44:30Sure, oh my God. And I guess that, you know, that I think those children are probably in a weird way, holding the reins of our hungry ghosts. But I think we all can be sort of hijacked by very young people. And I've only in the last few years, I think really COVID sparked a much stronger or acute interest in who that person is and how to talk to her and how to settle her down. And I was going through some major life changes and I still am. And I think at any threshold in a person's life, those voices get all the louder. And yeah, that process of like reparenting is, I still, I don't totally understand it, but I'm trying to.

45:34Do you like, what is your modality for that? Do you have a therapist? I'm in a lot of therapy. I have an individual therapist. I'm also in group therapy, which is one of my favorite new modalities. I think it's really radical and cool work. And in that group, are they friends or strangers? No strangers and we can't speak outside of group.

46:00And it's an amazing exercise in radical honesty. it's basically a place, it's like a safe space in which one can say anything and say it directly to another person. So it's like an individual therapy, which I also love, but it's a different dynamic. This is really testing the bounds of your interpersonal dynamics as a mirror to reflect what's happening outside of group therapy for you. And yeah, so that's been really fascinating. That's a level, like an enhanced level of trust that you have to muster also because with the therapist, they're sort of bound by law, but then you have these other people, if they're strangers, you don't even know these people and you're a public person.

46:53Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting element to it. that people are pretty cool about, but they have access to information about me that I don't have about them. But that really rarely comes up. I mean, I think for me, what it's also meant to do is sort of replay family dynamics. So within those family dynamics, like the group leader is the matriarch or patriarch. And then you've got where you fit in in a given family. And I spent like the first four sessions just weeping. And I was so confused by it. I called the group therapist after and I was like, what is happening? But there's also such a raw humanity that is experienced because it's not like you're taking turns talking.

47:56You have to find your way in to a conversation with 11 people. So if you wanna like talk about something or relate to somebody or say, I have something that is really eating away at me and I need your help. Like finding, just finding your voice is like such a huge hurdle. And for me as an only child, like I've never had to really do that. I mean, I have to do it in my professional life, but yeah, so it's just been so interesting. And then people will tell their stories and there's so much universality to them that, yeah. So that's been cool.

48:40And personal therapy, there was a time when I was in couples therapy, individual therapy and group therapy every week. So like I was so out of my mind. It was helpful, but now I'm only in two of the three every week. It's a lot, man. It's a lot. I'm a firm believer in therapy though. Yeah. But this question around monogamy seems to be this thing that has kind of lived in your conscious and unconscious mind for a very long time from the inception of your beautiful relationship with Daryl that like went on for a long time and kind of reached its conclusion. And I love Daryl, you know that. And I know you guys are still close and all of that, but the fact that this was part and parcel of your first movie that you guys did together and still gets played out and slip, like what is going on with like how, there's something like very cool about the female empowerment piece to that.

49:50But I feel like you're still trying to make sense of like what that means and how you live as a modern woman, a modern empowered woman within the kind of construct of conventional lifestyle and expectations. Yeah, I mean, Breaking Upwards, as you said, was about non-monogamy. It was based on a real open relationship that Daryl and I were in. And Daryl and I, over the course of our 17 year relationship, were in and out of non-monogamy. And I think in some ways, Slip was me trying to contend with what that was and what that meant and how to take it into this new stage of my life. Like we became polyamorous in the later stage of our relationship and that, you know, opens up a whole new - Does that ever work?

50:47You know, Rich - Anyone who's explored that, like we have this fantasy that, we can live these polyamorous lives, but I don't know anyone who's been able to like do that and achieve a level of happiness beyond what they were experiencing prior or to do it in any successful way. And I'm friends with Neil Strauss, he wrote a whole book about it called The Truth. Like, read that book and you'll get a heavy dose of, what the reality of that looks like. Yeah. I mean, my mom's best friends are polyamorous and they have been for decades and they sort of served as me and Daryl's mentors. They have made it work.

51:31But, you know, like whenever I would go meet with either one of them to be like, oh, what do I do? Like, this is crazy. They would tell me stories that were so harrowing. I mean, like the fantasy of like sexual liberation, you know, has to contend with, you know all of our human frailty and jealousy and pettiness. You know, I just don't know that I would, I mean, I'm not cut out for that. Yeah, and there's a level of, at least in my experience, you know, because I think some people do make it work. I definitely think non-monogamy can work. I think that's a very different thing than polyamory. and I think in some ways I question how much social conditioning plays into the difficulties that we assign to non-monogamy because monogamy is also really fucking hard.

52:26We just don't see it. It doesn't have the same stigma, but... It doesn't have the level of complexity though. it might have a high degree of difficulty. Right, that's true. But the difficulty doesn't live on that exponential scale of having to manage all different kinds of people. And it just seems very chaotic. It is, it was chaotic. I guess like any extreme sport, there's really, you're chasing the adrenaline. and then your body's broken and you have to recover. And is the adrenaline about like the new, because there's always like the allure of the new, that's the uncharted terrain where the answer lives and this exciting uncharted adventure with this new person and the promise that that holds.

53:30I think it's the allure of the new. I think there is something exciting and sexy about the transgressive nature of what you're doing, radical honesty, if you can swing that. But I think the complexity really, for me at least, I think for a lot of people, it's like the new is hot and also the illicit is hot. And the whole point of non-monogamy when done well is that it is all about communication and honesty. but there's going to be omissions. There's going to, you're still gonna be chasing something illicit on some level. And that's, I think where people get stuck. Yeah. Well, it's a very kind of heightened peak experience I would imagine.

54:20Yeah. And when it's like working well, it probably feels like being really high. Yes. But I would imagine the lows are pretty low too. Real low, really low. So where do you land on that now after like, we don't have to get into the details of that adventure, but as somebody who's explored that, like what is your kind of, you know, summation on living that lifestyle? I think that I would not be polyamorous ever again. And I think I'm still, jury's out on non-monogamy. I think it's something that really scares me. I still am not like, but it scares me, but I'm always sort of game, do you know what I mean?

55:06Like most things in my life that scare me. For me, I think many people play with don't ask, don't tell in non-monogamous relationships and that doesn't work for me. It's a tell tell situation because I think, yeah. I think just based on my personal experience, honesty has to be at the forefront of any relationship. And with all the therapy that you've done and that you're doing, how do you know, like when you're pursuing a relationship or an experience from a healthy place versus acting out on some, perpetuating some past trauma or acting out for attention or what have you. Totally. Yeah. I don't know how you know those things.

56:06I mean, I think you know deep down when you're acting from the Hungry Ghost place. You know, like I will say to my therapist - What is the need that you're trying to meet? Yeah, and I can feel, I'm like, this feels addict-y. You know, like you can tell the difference of, I think the difference is really a center of gravity. When you're experiencing something from a place of groundedness versus a place in which your feet are far off the ground. And from that hungry ghost perspective, can you be okay just with yourself and not in pursuit of those experiences with others? and coming out of a marriage, a long time relationship and all the peaks and valleys, you know, with Daryl, like where does that land you in terms of how you feel about yourself and how you engage with other people in relationship?

57:10You know, it's interesting coming out of something that was really half my life and all of my adult life. It's a difficult thing to distinguish what you're projecting onto a new relationship versus what that relationship is actually bringing to the table. So I guess that's been my biggest question, but definitely getting post separation and also post COVID, which was like, wasn't even post COVID, but it was like when the world began to open up, everyone regardless of what they had just come out of was like so desperate for human connection and sexual connection and all of those things that the moment was right.

58:00And I did have to face a lot of those questions of what's driving this need and is this healthy? And I think for women, especially those questions are all the more complicated. Sure. Because I think... And historically and societally, there's so much shame around sex and desire and what it looks like to be unapologetically lustful as a woman, which I think the show really deals with. Yeah, the show definitely explores that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, that's another huge theme in the work that you do and kind of carry into how you create your projects from a professional perspective.

58:54I mean, in Band-Aid, which was really kind of your coming out party in terms of doing something on your own, like outside of your creative collaboration with Daryl to write and direct your first independent movie. And you got a lot of attention for the fact that you hired an all female crew, which I don't, had anybody ever done that before? At least at that scale? I don't think so, not at that scale, yeah. So talk a little bit about like your decision to do that the challenges in actually executing on that and kind of the ripple effect of having done that? I think, well, as I said, my mother had a great influence on me growing up and really put my tension towards inequity, particularly gender inequity and particularly in media.

59:53And so I think when I was given the opportunity to be in charge of my own hiring practices, I wanted to take a really big swing. And as an actor, I had witnessed, I had witnessed that inequity firsthand. I mean, crews to this day still, regardless of the amount of, you know, lip service paid to how much is changing in our industry, they are really white and really male. and yeah, I mean, female directors, like I don't think it's changed that much. Yeah, like directors, I feel like there has been a shift and I'm grateful for it. And I think that goes for, you know, for, you know, the BIPOC community too.

1:00:39Like there is more of a drive for inclusivity above the line, meaning with directors and screenwriters and whose stories can be told and that's great. But there's a 100 person team below those people and it's there that it's still really homogenized. And so I wanted to see what I could do to just really like shake up the system because I think if you don't draw a hard line in the sand, you will just continue the pattern because it's mostly about,

1:01:24people are very unwilling to take risks on those with less experience and those with less experience don't have an opportunity to get more experience because no one will take the risk on them. And so it's this, there's a lot of money on the line. And there's a lot of money and the stakes are high. And so that experience was incredible, like truly incredible to have all women surrounding me on that project, especially because it was my first time directing and I was also acting and writing. And it was, we shot Band-Aid in 12 days, which was insane. Only 12 days? Yeah. I didn't know it was that short.

1:02:00We had so little money. That's crazy. And the fear that I found in my department heads, who were also women in breaking their own patterns, because they're like, I don't know, but my second is a dude I've worked with for 12 years. Like you gotta let me work with him. We have a shared language, you know, he's gonna. And I was just like, I'm so sorry, but you can't. And in the end, I think everyone was really grateful that they had been pushed beyond their comfort zones. And not from the perspective of, you know, making some sort of sociopolitical stance, but because of the process, the process was really revelatory and I remember like the day after we wrapped, my assistant director went on to a new project and was the only woman on the project.

1:02:59And we were sort of living in this utopia. And so I think that the fall from grace was really difficult. It's changing incrementally. I do think it's changing incrementally, but it requires intentionality and a willingness to take risks, which I hate calling them, but it is what one would view as a risk in hiring someone that might have less experience than their white male counterpart. Yeah, and also a risk given that this was really your first time directing, right? Like there's a lot on the line for you career-wise in terms of what's gonna happen next. So for you to say, it's one thing like, oh, I've been doing this for a long time.

1:03:46Like now I'm finally gonna do this. I have cred and all of that. But like you were just at the beginning of trying to establish cred in that world. And for you to say, no, I'm gonna do this is pretty bold, right? And then to have your department heads have to do that because then you're in a conversation around like values versus like the quality of the film. Like the quality of the film is gonna suffer because the communication between the department heads and the people underneath them, isn't gonna be functional, that's gonna affect you. And it's great that you hired all these women, but if the movie sucks, you're not gonna get another chance to do this, right?

1:04:24And the whole project, you know, kind of collapses on top of itself. Yeah, and that's what stops progress from happening, because I think that's like any sort of archaic institution that we're trying to poke holes in right now is the idea that, but this works, but this is what we know. We can't change it because everything's gonna fall apart. And it's like, when you change it, actually the opportunities for greatness are so much bigger. And it was amazing to sort of have empirical proof of that. And again, like - But there is a ballsiness for you being still a newcomer to do that as opposed to an established, credible director with a track record of generating box office.

1:05:16You know what I mean? Like, so that's pretty fucking cool. Thank you. And ballsy and courageous. It was cool. I mean, again, like, you know, with Slip, like there's no reason anyone should have trusted me to direct every single episode, you know? Like that's a crazy thing for me to say. I'm gonna do this on my first series that I've created. It's a risk. Like I'd never, I directed a pilot. It didn't go to series. I had a track record, but I do think you kind of have to, it requires a huge amount of like humility and confidence. Where does that confidence come from? Is that your mom? Yeah, well, yeah, my mom made really bold and ballsy things in her work, not things.

1:06:17But she was definitely a disruptor. I think she was a disruptor without, I'm sorry, mom, a sense of business. And so I think I saw that as a cautionary tale and said, how can I become a disruptor and be a player like that is taken seriously in the industry? Not very many people can do that. Like artists are not supposed to be business people. That's why there's managers and business managers and all these other people to kind of, create guardrails around them to allow them to create while kind of providing some stability and infrastructure. Yeah, but you have to be. Like there's no, even as a director, like if you don't make your day, however, a 12 hour day, you're not gonna get hired again, generally speaking.

1:07:11And so you have to, and you're also in an administrative position, right? that you are the boss of a huge crew of people. And so the idea of like the purity of the artistic experience is kind of bullshit sadly. And I think if you can't toggle those two worlds, that's where you get into trouble. And it's what I witnessed in my upbringing. And I think I've tried my best to toggle both worlds. It does require... It's a world of compromise, right? Yeah, it's like, yeah, compromise is so loaded a word and that's always the line you're towing because you have to be able to play the game, but you also have to be able to trust your gut when something is - Choose your battles.

1:08:05Is a betrayal of division or your integrity as an artist. And that's something I think that is only learned in time.

1:08:21What's the difference between directing a movie and being a show runner on a TV show? There's a lot more episodes. Yeah. There's so much more room. I mean, you're kind of like Manning, you know, it's sort of, to me, it feels like maybe the difference between, I don't know, going out on an expedition with a smaller group of people versus like captaining like an aircraft carrier or something like, right? There's a lot of people, there's so many more moving parts. The puzzle is much more complicated. Yeah, Roku didn't green light a second season but they did green light a second season of scripts.

1:09:07So I wrote the entire first season alone but the second season I ran my first writer's room. And so that was really the conventional experience of being a showrunner. And that was really thrilling and cool. Again, it is both administrative and creative. And it's not dissimilar to directing in that there's a singular vision that a bunch of other visions are there to service. And I think your job as both a showrunner and director is to create an environment in which all of those visions are in harmony and conversation. And obviously there's going to be a hierarchy, but I think that's something that I work really hard at to create a space in which everyone's artistry is showcased and that is deeply felt because I think that's when people do their best work.

1:10:09But it's a different skillset. The challenge of writing and directing your own independent film feels like a journey into the soul and it's about expressing your vision and running a writer's room is about managing people and making sure that you're communicating adequately so that whatever is in your mind is being expressed by a collective group of people, right? who are sharing that sensibility and are able to translate that vision or those ideas onto paper and onto film and maintain like the tone that you've set, right? So it's like that's people skills versus like, you know, my creative genius skill.

1:10:59Yeah, but I think the thing that people don't talk about or maybe they do, those same skills are very much a play as a director, even on an indie film, because it, you know, it's like, there are so many personalities and egos to manage. And a lot of the work is about creating that sort of like symbiosis that is a total wild social experiment that oftentimes is disastrous. Like how are we sharing this vision together? Or what do you mean? Or how do I communicate my vision so that everyone is on board to be servicing it while not feeling hemmed in or that their vision is not like of equal merit?

1:11:57Do you know what I mean? Like it's that line because, and I think in a writer's room, you have that same thing of when someone, you want to create an environment in which every idea comes to the table and is met with intrigue and curiosity and also have the wherewithal to say, and yet that has no place here. And that's really hard, especially for a person who's, you know, a people pleaser or codependent in any way. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, interesting. After Band-Aid, you stepped up and kind of took a crack at a bigger budget movie with Kraft, right? Kraft Legacy. Kraft Legacy, yeah.

1:12:43Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like kind of resurfacing this cult classic. Yeah. But that was much more of a studio kind of movie, right? Like, did you go into that thinking, well, I'm gonna hire an all woman crew for this as well and meet with resistance with that. Or what was the process of cracking that thing open?

1:13:10Well, even with that film, like clearly it was based on an existing property. Stakes were very high because the fans of that existing property were really intense. Yeah, hardcore goth community. Yeah. gonna hold you to task. Yeah. And I was working within the studio system as an independent filmmaker for the first time. Daryl and I had worked with Fox Searchlight together, but this was really my first foray as I had individuated from our creative partnership. So it just comes with such a new set of challenges. It still was the writing process for me. I had to go in and pitch on it. I had to pitch to Jason Blum at Blumhouse and to the execs at Columbia and Sony.

1:13:59And my take was still, my way in is always personal, like even with an existing property. So it was really my story of my own adolescence and then add a little witchcraft. But of me living with my mom, just the two of us and being in this sort of divinely feminine space and then her getting a boyfriend and forcing me to move in with him and his three sons, which was quite a toxic masculine space at really such a crucial juncture in my own adolescence and coming into my own womanhood. And so that was my take. And then I added a bunch of bells and whistles to it. and yeah, that process, there are so many more cooks in the kitchen and there's so much more compromise and there's, yeah, even when there's more money on the line, there's still never enough money because I was making a big movie that required completely new tools for me as a filmmaker.

1:15:17so it was a very challenging experience and I think part of me writing all of the first season of Slip after that experience was a protective measure. Taking it back. Yeah, I needed to, yeah. And I needed to know that I could and yeah, then to see that I was continuously given that protection by Roku and Tea Time, my producers, which is Dakota Johnson's company. Like it was really, yeah, a very nourishing counterpoint. So how do you know if you're gonna get a second season? Depends on how well it does. We'll find out end of May. Yeah, so like as of the date of this recording, it hasn't come out yet.

1:16:07No, April 21st. We'll know right soon. Yeah, April 21st, all seven episodes drop. So hopefully people will binge it and Roku will. So they're all gonna drop at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's smart. Yeah, I wrote it to be binged. Yeah. And there are half hour episodes. Yeah, they're easy. Yeah, I'm really excited. It's such a wild experience, like sharing something after it's lived inside you for so long. What does that feel like? It feels a bit out of body, like very vulnerable. This is the most exposed. Yeah, you're very exposed. Let's just say you're very exposed. I'm very exposed.

1:16:57So yeah, I definitely feel scared and I feel excited. And there's so much anticipatory sort of adrenaline that yeah, it'll be interesting. There's always a postpartum that happens after it comes out because it is a birth. And the high of the release is so wild and wildly vulnerable. And then you sort of have to figure out what's next. Yeah. What is the creative process look like for you? You know, I've had Steven Pressfield in here and I've had Robert McKee and all these people who come in and talk about, you know, the kind of art of creation and the kind of brass tacks of what it means to sit down and give birth to an idea.

1:17:55So how do you, like, what are your daily habits or your practices around like, you know, creating these scripts or turning these ideas that you have into reality? You know, I don't know where I have been talking about it and it's sort of an embarrassing way to talk about it, but it does feel like there's some sort of cosmic download. Like I don't know when people ask me the inception of these ideas for the projects that I write, I really don't, I don't have an inception point. I don't have a memory of when it came to be. It generally happens in a sort of liminal space. It's like upon waking or sleeping or in a shower.

1:18:37It's when my mind is given permission to turn off. I'll get an idea and generally then it will sit, I'll sort of let it incubate for a year or two, usually because I'm working on something else. But when it persists. But when it persists, I know. Yeah, you're like, I need to pay attention to that. Yeah, I've never been impulsive. Like I've never gotten an idea and been like, and we're writing. I sort of let it because also, as I said, like so many of those ideas are based in big questions. So I also want to have some time to figure out what the question is and what the facets of it are that I want to explore.

1:19:21but I don't have like a daily practice when it's time to write and my body knows it's time to write, it's very clear to me. And then I will write incessantly until I have an entire script. And I'm a fast writer, but I won't, it'll be all day, every day. I'm not an early riser. so I'll wake up and I will generally just go right to my computer which isn't the healthiest thing and then I'll just write for eight hours or something and I'll keep going until it's done and then generally when it's done I have to have nothing to do with it for a week and I'll send it to a trusted group of friends and it'll usually take them a couple of weeks to read.

1:20:20And then in that time, once I get their notes, I'll have at least enough distance to then be able to revisit it and go, oh yeah, this needs to change, that needs to change. But yeah, that's generally my process for writing. And then once I've got enough notes and feel it's ready, I'll send it to my team and go like, all right, let's strategize. How do we get this made? Which is an impossible thing to do, which is why I've made so many things independently. Yeah. So a burst writer, but in the interim, when you're kind of collating these thoughts or there's ruminations around things that are recurring, do you like have a notebook and take notes?

1:21:05Do you use like the notes app on your phone? Like when something you're driving and you're in traffic, we live in Los Angeles and you're like, oh shit, that like, well, I need to remember this. Like, do you have any of that kind of stuff? Yeah, I have so many notes in my notes app. I also try to talk about it. Like if I have an idea, I'll try to, because that kind of, I think it's sort of cements it in a way. If I can say like, I had this idea for something today to a friend or a partner or my parents, sounding boards are really helpful. They can stress test it. and then also it's cements it in your awareness.

1:21:44It makes it more real. Yeah, totally. I have a new movie that has been percolating for many years. I've been doing some of that stress testing it and just talking it through lately. And yeah, I find the creative process so fascinating in that way, because it's so different for every person. And how do you know whether one of these ideas is a TV show like Slip or a movie. Is it just how much runway is there to this story and what's the best medium? Because we're in this weird time where we've blurred the lines. I mean, what is television? I mean, it's not even really a thing. It's like it's storytelling.

1:22:29Like what's the best medium to tell the best version of this story. And then kind of like fitting that to the right distribution platform for that. Yeah, Slip was designed to be a TV show. And I guess I knew that when, but I think - There's an episodic nature to it. Yeah, and I think I also know what medium I'm looking to work in. So I knew that I wanted to create my own show. And I think then it was like, okay, what is that show? And what narrative lends itself to something episodic? And yeah, I think next up is a movie. I also mentioned interested in writing a book and that's been something that I've always wanted to do.

1:23:15So yeah, like different mediums excite me, especially ones that I'm less familiar with. So is it, it's not just the story. It's like, okay, I've done this but I haven't done this thing over here yet, right? Yeah, yeah. Do you have that? I don't know, do I have that? I don't know. I've been doing this thing for a long time. You know what I mean? I'm trying to stretch in a few other areas. I'm trying to get another book together. Yeah, but when you write, like is it, are you like, okay, I wanna push myself in this? Well, certainly, yeah. I mean, I look back on stuff as any creative person does on things they've done in the past and you're like, really dude?

1:23:59So yeah, trying to grow and kind of meet the moment in a new and better way for sure, right? Yeah, I think it's the only way is to figure out, yeah, how to grow as an artist is to do things that you don't know how to do. Right, and to not be so afraid of the thing that scares you that it paralyzes you from exploring it. Yeah. And I think that gets harder with success because it's easier to keep doing the thing. Like you could just be like, you're crushing as an actor right now. You could just be doing, like getting cast in whatever. Oh God, it's so hard. It doesn't look that way from the outside.

1:24:47It looks like you're getting cast in there. You showing up in everything right now. Yeah, I mean, it's a nice moment because I was able to act in brilliant directors films and only do that and then create my own stuff. and that's such a nice thing to be able to do. But I mean, the amount of films I'm not acting in, versus the ones that I get, it's the ratio is impossible. And so it's so nice to be able to create my own work rather than sit and wait for someone else to give me the opportunity. Right, because you can exert some agency, right? As opposed to being reactive to whatever comes to you.

1:25:29Yeah, and to write the roles I wanna play. And unfortunately, like in this industry, the lists are very small. Again, the intersection of art and commerce, like the lists are very small of what actors can get something financed. I am not on those lists, at least not yet. And so like, it's an uphill battle to get cast, especially now that like Instagram influencers are of value. Like the pool, the casting pool is like even more big and daunting. So yeah, for me to be able to write the characters that I'm dying to play is like a total. So how does it work? Like do you, your agent calls you and says, so-and-so wants to meet with you or will you audition for this part or this director is thinking of you for this?

1:26:25or what is that experience like? I'm still auditioning. She says resentfully. I do have a body of work that could be called upon if one wanted to, but I am still auditioning. So like with Ari Aster's movie, Bo's Afraid that's coming out, or that's out now, I auditioned. and I put myself on tape. So did you go after it? No. Were you like, I want this part or I want this? No, my team like blessed them, brought it to me and was like this is an Ari Aster movie and I'm his biggest fan. But I wasn't given the script. So I had to fly completely blind. And when you see the movie, you'll see it's like a really complicated character.

1:27:22So I had no context and I just had to use my director brain to go like, what's happening? So wait, you auditioned without a script? How do you even know what you're doing then? You play like Joaquin Phoenix's mother, the young Joaquin's mother, right? Yeah, I play Joaquin's mother. So it just came out like today, I think, right? I wish I had seen it before talking to you, but sorry, go ahead. No, it's, yeah. Oftentimes that with like auteurs, unless you're being given an offer for a role, they'll be really secretive around the script. So I've had to do that before, but this one was particularly challenging as a role.

1:28:13And Ari's dialogue is so brilliant, but it can be quite obtuse, you know? So, yeah, I put myself on tape and it was sort of a, like whenever I put myself on tape, I'm like, you know, we'll see. I'm not hopeful. And then, yeah, I got the call that Ari wanted to meet with me. And when we met, he offered me the part I thought we were meeting, you know, just as a meeting. But that was just the most thrilling thing in the world. And to get to be in his orbit and to get to witness his mastery of his craft. Like I shot that before slip, it was really inspiring.

1:28:55Yeah, but, and same with Zach Raff's movie who I know was on the pod. I auditioned, I put myself on tape and got the part. That's how it happened. Yeah. Yeah, you were great. I loved it. I loved it. You played Florence's sponsor. Sponsor, yeah. And you were like no bullshit with her. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I told Zach, I've seen the movie a couple of times now, like he did a really good job of being authentic to what that world and that experience is like for somebody who isn't part of that world. And also Florence, who doesn't come from that subculture. I mean, she's a fucking genius.

1:29:40It's unbelievable what she's capable of, I love like the pathos that she's able to, you know, bring to the screen just with her face is unbelievable. Yeah, it's an unbelievable performance and it's so beautifully directed and written. Yeah, it was really cool to be a part of both of those films because also, you know, you create these little families and now I consider all those people my friends, which is so cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that movie is beautiful. And this isn't like a film podcast. So there's a lot of people who aren't like, you know, Cine-ese. So for those that don't know, like, people listen to Zach, but maybe people don't know who Ari Aster is.

1:30:26I mean, this guy, I mean, Hereditary, Midsommar. I think Midsommar is just one of the most brilliant movies I've ever seen. And again, Florence Pugh, just like crushing in this movie that is unlike anything you've ever seen. It's equal parts beautiful and horrifying and confusing. And I mean, just the kind of number of conflicting emotions that you experienced watching this movie. So the anticipation of his newest movie, Bo is not afraid is at a peak, right? And all I've seen is the trailer. What a gift that you're able to participate in this movie. Like I just can't, I can't wait to see it. And I really believe that this guy is like, he's among the greats.

1:31:10He's only at the beginning of his career. Yeah, I think he's one of the greatest filmmakers of our time and to witness what he's done with this film is really incredible. It's three hours long. I know it's three hours based on the trailer. Like it's, there's a, it's obviously this surrealistic kind of experience of him. Like, I guess he's trying to go visit his mom and like there's all kinds of craziness ensues, but just based on that alone, it feels very Charlie Kaufman kind of Synecdoche New York. Totally. Yeah, it's got like a Coen brothers Kaufman-esque vibe for sure. And then, and Ari's mastery of like the visual cinematic language is really something to behold.

1:32:02Like I highly recommend seeing it in a theater. It is so incredible. And Joaquin's performance is incredible. I mean, the whole cast is amazing, but it's, yeah, it's an epic sort of demented dark comedy. And what is it like, like, all right. So Ari Aster, genius, like what does that look like on a day-to-day basis? Like how, what is the experience of working with an auteur or who has that level of command and vision? I mean, it is like a masterclass. I, because I was in front of the camera and I didn't wanna be like annoying and like shadow him when I wasn't on camera. But you are a director also, right?

1:32:45I'm sure you're like paying attention to everything with some level of hyper vigilance. Yeah, I mean, what's, I think one of the main things that I took away from that experience was the intentionality of his shots, like how much he fits into one frame is really like unbelievable and inspiring and inspired. His mastery of tone is something that I am also always trying to navigate and going between comedy and deeply felt scenes and horror. And it's like an amazing - Absurdity. Absurdity, yeah. But something that I really took away from it was his sense of play. And I think, you know, in sort of it's aligned with what we've been talking about with what I set out to create in the environment on my sets.

1:33:49Like stakes are so high. We're doing really intense scenes. He does a lot of takes. but it never feels like punishing or exacting. It feels fun and like experimental and that there's so much room because he has a sort of, I mean, he has a complete command over what he's doing but there is like a childlike energy that is so exciting to be around and allows for, I guess, just a lot of breathing room in terms of performance as an actor and so that was really inspiring. And what is it like to work with Joaquin? I mean, there's such a mythos that like surrounds that guy. I didn't really get to work with him.

1:34:36I only have one tiny scene in which that we shared, but I found him to be lovely. Him and Ari had an amazing working relationship and we just premiered the film and yeah, he was so sweet. I mean, we hadn't really gotten to know each other, came up to me and talked to me about my performance. Yeah, it was cool. I saw some photos or videos of the premiere with you guys. I mean, I'm determined to get that guy in the podcast. Oh man, he's such a brilliant actor. So yeah, just to share any space with him on screen is really a dream come true. It's pretty exciting. Yeah. That movie is gonna come, it's gonna make a big splash.

1:35:20I think so, yeah. What is it about A24? Like they just seem to be like their fingers on the pulse of everything's zeitgeist, the level of understanding like what's gonna work and kind of being at the cutting edge of not just what's cool but what's of the highest caliber in terms of what's gonna work in the marketplace but also what is most interesting creatively, I think is almost some kind of magic that they're doing right now, right? Even with like beef, which just came out, which is just like crushing. And I guess they've done some TV in the past, but this is really their entree into television.

1:36:06Yeah, you know, I guess it is

1:36:12their commitment to not being fear driven, right? Like if you were to. There's a courage to what they're doing. Yeah, they're trusting filmmakers in the singularity of their vision, whatever medium, and I think that is a testament to what creates the best work and what speaks to people. Like, I think that's what's so interesting about when you look at like the studio system, there's such an attention to creating something for a mass audience. And I think what's misguided about the process a lot of the time is that the idea is that you're supposed to water it down. And when you see a company like A24 who instead is sharpening the singularity of a vision and that's what's actually speaking to such mass audiences, like what a great lesson.

1:37:06I think that's so true. Yeah. I think that's so true. I think that's a powerful lesson for anybody who's thinking about, you know, birthing something creative, right? Like the resonance of it is found in the specificity, not in the, and the specificity is what creates the universal connection, not the other way around. And by watering it down and making it seemingly, kind of relatable to everybody you've lost, it's so general and diffuse that it doesn't connect at all. Like it's working at cost purposes with that goal. And it's like the more specific detailed to somebody's lived experience or creative expression, that's what works, right?

1:37:58Absolutely. It seems weird that that would be radical or kind of like the contrary, the hot take. I know. You know what I mean? But obviously it's working with them. Yeah. Yeah. And the proof is really in the pudding. I mean, I also think like for anyone in any creative pursuit, making something with an audience in mind to me is always sort of like the death knell, you know, like make something that you want to make. Like what is the story you wanna tell? And that's what you put out into the world because when you start to be, I think product oriented over process oriented, yeah, it can get you into some trouble.

1:38:51And yet it is a business. And there are people sitting around conference room tables trying to figure out if it's gonna work in China or it's gonna work in this other place. And those are the things that dictate budgets. Yeah. I mean, when I say it's like, figure out what story you wanna write. If I was talking to like a filmmaker, I would say, figure out what story you wanna write. What story you have to write. And then think about a way to make it cheaply. You know, like I'm not taking business out of the equation because I think you do have to be pragmatic. If you're a first time filmmaker and you write some huge epic, it's never gonna get made.

1:39:30And that might be the story you think you need to tell. but what's if you distilled that story down, what's the contained version of it? And then go figure out a way to make that because every single project I've ever made has had 1000 no's before there's been any yes. So how do you like weather the rejection? Because you're in a business, you've become very successful in this business, but it's a business of like you said, mostly no's. and being able to kind of like hold true to yourself and what you're doing and not get overly dissuaded by that. I guess it comes back to confidence, which is hard, right?

1:40:18Like because nose will diminish your confidence. I've always had something where I don't believe them. It doesn't mean that I don't take notes, right? Like if someone says no, I have to look at what they're saying no to and what I can shift.

1:40:45But it requires such tenacity to keep going. And that tenacity is ultimately like an unwavering sense of self or a sense that you have something that deserves a voice. And I don't know how to cultivate that necessarily, except for to just keep going. I think you just have to keep going. And I think making your own work is really important. Like Daryl and I made work in the face of 1000 no's by just going and doing it ourselves. And you know, that's a real stress test of the work. Yeah, I feel like just in looking at like the projects that you guys did together, it feels like you just pulled the shit out of your ass.

1:41:40Like you're like, well, we're gonna go make this movie. And I'm like, what? And then like somehow you're like out in the street, like shooting, like you just, you progress as if, like even if all the pieces aren't together, like you're just in motion moving forward. And, you know, when you create that momentum, somehow everything else, you know, those other problems that seem insurmountable start to get resolved. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it's like manifesting, I guess one-on-one is like, I am doing it. You can tell me no, and I can take a note and shift something. You can tell me no and say, well, we have something else like it, which is what you're always hearing.

1:42:21Or, you know, like, and it's like, well, but do you? And can't there be many things that are in the same world, but have different voices behind them? And yeah, I guess it is about, in some ways, pulling it out of your ass. What's the like worst piece of advice that you've gotten from some kind of like studio person or I'm sure you've heard some bangers. Yeah. Oh God. We're not naming names. I know, I'm trying to think of like, worst piece of advice.

1:43:03Sadly, like it's almost more diminishing than bad advice. It's really just - Ad hominem. Yeah. I think it was more when I was young and I've named this name before and I'll name him again. But I went to David Mamet's acting school and I was 18 and he came and gave a guest class and told me that my shelf life was short as an actor. And that's probably the worst piece of advice I've ever been given. If you could call it advice. Oh no. It's like someone just took like a steaming shit on the chest. Oh yeah. And like, yeah. Oh man, that could not have been fun. No, but you know, then later he saw a sketch that I had written and he was notoriously cruel and said, who wrote that?

1:44:02And I said, I did. And he said, you should write a feature. So, you know. Interesting. You should write him a letter now. This is my letter to him. Okay. David. Dear David. Zoe is on the scene. Conversely, what about like some of the best advice that you've gotten over the years?

1:44:31Well, I guess the best advice I ever was given was by a producer named Alex Madigan who took me to coffee and said, you should direct. and I didn't know that. And it's like a wildly simple piece of advice. But I think that it does take sometimes, I think for many people, but especially for women and especially for women in film, like this sense of confidence, even if you don't know, or if you haven't gone to film school, if you don't have every answer, you don't know every lens, that someone saw that and said, go do it. You got it. And that's really all it took. To have that outside external voice, see something in you that maybe you're not ready to see in yourself.

1:45:22Yeah, which I think has happened for me every time. I mean, that David Mamet story was that for me too. I was writing, but I wasn't like, no, I should go write a feature. And even when I was in high school and I was acting, I was in the chorus of a musical. I had no confidence as an actor. and some like parent in the PTA was like, you're really good. You're the one I'm watching in the background. And so I guess tell people when you think they're talented because it's really meaningful and it's a really hard world across all industries. And those are really character building moments in terms of giving someone, yeah, a sense of value in the craft that they might be interested in, but too afraid to pursue.

1:46:10Yeah, I like that. I think that you don't, yeah. Also, as somebody who's older, you don't know the impact that your words have on somebody else. And when I reflect back and I remember certain things that certain people said to me, I'm sure they have no memory of, like that nice thing that they said and those things really can be meaningful. Yeah, yeah.

1:46:40Obviously, equity and empowerment are really important subjects to you in terms of trying to build on ramps to a career in this business that you're in and kind of changing the landscape. We're still kind of in the wake of Harvey Weinstein and Me Too and all that kind of stuff. and you've been a really kind of powerful voice in that conversation. What's your sense of kind of changes that have been made, changes that still need to be made? Like I feel like the whole kind of streaming situation, everything's sort of up in the air and it makes it rife for reinvention and new models. Like we just saw what Matt Damon and Ben Affleck are doing with artist equity.

1:47:34And basically they've created this new production company where all the crews are participating on an equity basis in these projects. And that's something that's never been done before and it's fucking awesome. And so I think there is real opportunity to kind of rewrite the rules. And you're somebody who I know thinks a lot about this and has taken action on this. So like where's your head at with all of that right now?

1:48:02I guess my head is like, I feel hopeful. I do feel hopeful. I think there have been strides that have been made and I think there's still a really long way to go. And it requires a huge amount of intentionality from the people at the top.

1:48:31and I guess, yeah, my hope is that it won't just be for optics, you know, that people see the actual inherent value in diversifying voices in a room and changing up who's also in charge. but you know, it's wild. I think how far we still do have to go. Like I say that I have hope and I do, but just yesterday I did an interview with like an esteemed publication and the journalist said, what's it like to fake so many orgasms? You must have done that in your real life a bunch too. And I thought, God. Let's get to the real important stuff. So far to go, man. Like that's top of mind for you to ask me.

1:49:34And I do think in some ways, SLIP is gonna be an interesting test in terms of what, you know. The discourse will be around it. Yeah, and what, yeah. What the discourse will be around my exploration of sexuality and female pleasure. And I hope that it pushes the envelope in a good way because I do think that that's a part of it, like that in the wake of Me Too, which we're still in many ways, But I think one of the most threatening things is women's sexuality. I mean, we look at it with women's reproductive rights. It's like the fact that Roe v. Wade has been overturned. It's just unbelievable the power we hold and how threatening that power is.

1:50:38and I hope that there's some way to

1:50:50shift the perspective. It's the same thing about equity and inclusivity. It's like this idea that if we change it, it's gonna be a mess or the people who have been in power so long have to feel a threat rather than a sense of excitement. at not even, a change of guard, but like what that could open up for the world at large and for the guard themselves. Or just a paradigm shift in perspective from perceiving it as a threat to perceiving it as the greatest opportunity for growth and kind of nourishment and economic viability. Yeah, yeah. And you look at trans rights just being demolished across the country at the same time as reproductive rights and the same time as racial inequity.

1:51:52And in some ways, the pushback has allowed for so many more voices to come into the fold where all of these incredible trans advocates are using their platform to say, we're all in this and parents of trans kids and all of that. I feel inspired amidst the sort of bleak atmosphere that we're in because I do think we're at a crossroads. it's just gonna take some time. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like the entrenchment around Hollywood specifically is not under threat is the wrong word, but is being challenged to re-imagine itself. And I feel like that's happening in some respects and in other ways, there's a holding on to an old way of doing things, which I guess is natural.

1:53:06This is the way it always is with everything. But I feel like those changes are inevitable. So I'm optimistic and I think it's a really interesting time. And for yourself as somebody who's creating in that space, in this space, there's so much more. I mean, the fact that you're like making the show with Roku, like there's so many avenues and opportunities to do cool things and they're leaving you alone and you're getting to do all this kind of stuff. Like that didn't exist that long ago. And we're at this point now where it's like, there's so much shit. Like I have to go, you know, I have to talk to other people and go online.

1:53:44I'm like, what should I be watching? Like there's so many, so much great, awesome stuff out there. Whereas it used to just be like, Like we're just waiting for that one thing for months, you know, to like nourish us. And now we're in this cornucopia of like just amazing art that we can, you know, pursue. Yeah, it is an exciting time. And yet the business model of it has changed, right? There's no syndication money, you know, like all the backend and all that kind of stuff. So all the economics of it are being upended and everyone's trying to figure out like a new way. Yeah, network television is freaking out.

1:54:23As they should be. I mean, that's fucking some broke ass shit right there. It's amazing it's still holding on in the way that it is. Like get over it already. You know what I mean? Or push yourself to make bolder choices. Right, right. And you say that as somebody who's done the sitcom thing. Yeah. Like it's wild that so many people watch that shit still. So many people. and he had bought me a house. So God bless all those people. Good for you. All right, well, the last thing I wanna kind of pursue with you before releasing you to your life is just, in kind of closing here, I always wanna try to leave people with some inspiration around engaging or re-engaging with their own creativity and their own voice in perhaps a way that people feel like that they don't have permission to, like you're in this world, like this is your job, right?

1:55:20But for most people, like they're doing other stuff. And I'm of the firm belief that we're all creative beings and we all have a voice and we all have something interesting to say and there's no one else out there. You know, you are your own, you know, you are a unique being. And I'm always encouraging people to kind of explore that and find a way to bring expression to your unique lived experience. So, how do you kind of encourage that in individuals or think about how you do that yourself? Well, I think an exciting thing about this moment in the world and while social media is, you know, a nightmare hellscape, it is also a way for people to see that there are weirdos like them everywhere.

1:56:12You know, I mean, I identify as a weirdo too. When I was growing up, I didn't know, you know, necessarily how to find the weirdos or how to feel less alone and what to do with those feelings of alienation. And so I hope that people are emboldened to tell their stories in whatever way they want to, right? Like there's so many modes of self-expression, but I think what I've learned in all of my therapies is that depression is when rage is turned inwards or when you're collapsing in on yourself because there's not a mode of expression. And so I'm a firm believer in figuring out what that mode of expression is because I do think it's what will save your life.

1:57:09Yeah, I think that's wise. Rather than pushing it down, finding a way to shine a light on it and expose it in a way and deconstruct it for yourself and share it in a way that creates a sense of bond with the other people who are feeling that way because we all feel alone in those weird emotions that we have. We all feel alone all the time. Yeah. And like whenever I'm asked what I want audiences to take away from slip or anything I make, I just say I want them to feel less alone because it is why I make things. Yeah. It's the most powerful tool, you know, and such a transformative experience as a viewer for me when I see something and feel less alone, And that's like, that's why we consume art.

1:58:05I mean, in Slip, there is this sense that you are very alone in this relationship. You know, you're in this intimate relationship, but there's a severe lack of intimacy and you're trying to figure out like, what am I doing here? You go on this adventure and whatever ensues, ensues. But I think there's something universal in that. Like the idea that we're in our lives, but we're always thinking about like, would our life be better if we were over here as opposed to here? And that's connective tissue that, I think we can all relate to deeply. Yeah, especially at this moment, sort of post pandemic, I think the sense of aloneness is something deeper than we've ever been willing to really talk about.

1:59:00and I think talking about it is a great thing. I think it is one of the most profound experiences I've had in the aftermath of quarantines that when you ask people how they are, now they actually tell you. Right, it is true, right? They're like, not great.

1:59:23Life's hard. And I think that's important. Yeah, it's true. Oh, cool, man. I think we did it. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It's so nice to be back in this beautiful new space. I love you, Zoe. I love you too. I'm such a fan. And like I said, at the outset, it's been so fun to watch your kind of career take off in the way that it has. It's well-deserved and I can't wait to see what you do next. So you've got slip coming by the time this podcast comes out, it will be out on Roku. Beau is not afraid in movie theaters, wherever you live, right? Worldwide. Yeah, I think so. And then what else do you have anything else coming out?

2:00:08No, we'll just, if you watch Roku and watch slip season one, then you'll help me get a season two. All right, there we go. Let's all, let's crowdsource season two for Zoe. There's the deal, right? Yeah. Cool. Cool. Thanks. Thank you. Yeah, peace.

2:01:04That's it for today. meal planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com.

2:01:46Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and AJ Akpodiete. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:02:29Thank you.