Elite Endurance Athlete Cam Wurf On Sustainable Training Strategies And How To Unlock Your Athletic Potential

24:35You also compete as an individual, as an elite Ironman triathlete, And you seem to do this with, it appears relative ease and parity. Like it's not as if one is a side hustle and one's the full-time job. They're kind of equal footing. I feel like you have perhaps a greater passion for Ironman, particularly Kona and triathlon, but it's the stability of being part of this team and perhaps the camaraderie and the kind of foundation that provides you and your family and also your training to kind of, you know, root you in something so that, you know, you can do all these other things as well. Like it's a complicated puzzle, I'm sure, but you're the only one who's doing this.

25:22Are you the, I think you're the only one who's ever done this, right? I mean, there was Tolansky, but he - He stopped. Yeah, he stopped and, you know, he was a pro cyclist for slipstream for, I don't know, six or seven years, right? Long time. And became a pro Ironman, but you're the only one to try to do them simultaneously. Yeah. As far as I know. Yeah, and my big goal, you know, sort of, you know, last year, for example, at 2021 was to win a race and win an Ironman, you know, and I was able to do it or be part of a winning team, you know, part of a winning, like guys winning the first year 2020, I was never part of a win with the team.

26:01You know, we had a bunch of seconds, even second in the Vuelta with Richard Carapaz, like it was a great fight with Jumbo Visma, but didn't win. And then so 21, I was like, right, I want to be part of a win. And thanks to Tom Pidcock at his first win. And I was there for that. And then obviously bunch followed that. And then I went in Copenhagen, you know, and then last year in 22, part of more team victories, but didn't quite, you know, I couldn't win one myself. I was second in the one Ironman I did aside from the world championships in, yeah, in Vittorio Gastezo in Spain. I got beaten by 30 seconds, but you know, that was to your point, you know, they had me actually the week before it was the tour de France started the weekend before they had me in Copenhagen for some VIP, you know, to stuff, but also COVID was still quite rife, like just in case, you know, if they had to throw me in, I was there.

26:55So I obviously wasn't there preparing for an Ironman. And then when I didn't get to raise the tour, it's like, wow, you got to qualify for Kona now. Okay. There's a race next weekend off you go. So rest home, threw all the stuff in the car off I went and I almost pulled it off. You know, good lead on the bike and was nursing myself through the run and got caught in the final part. But yeah, I've learned that, you know, the guys are very, very good in both sports. And so I need to be more, I'm not sure what the compartmentalize, I mean, that's mental, but basically dedicate myself specifically to each, at certain times to do it properly because otherwise I just become okay at both.

27:40And I don't want that. Like I can go to a bike race and do my job for the team. And, you know, G and I had this conversation in training the other day. G being Garant Thomas, Tour de France champion. Yeah, he's out here training with me. And it was, if I'm on the front or, you know a 5k longer than we thought, that's great. If I'm there for 5k less, they work it out. You know, it's not really, it's no big deal. It's me that knows whether I gave it all and did it actually made a big difference or not like me personally. So when I don't do a good job, you know, if I have been, you know, kind of doing too much running or whatever, and it's affected me, you know, racing on the bike, it's actually a loss because racing on the bike provides an an amazing opportunity to push my body way harder than I would like to, because it's one of those sports where you just have to go as fast as the guy in front, which is something I feel can be a weapon to take back to triathlon and periodically I've been able to get that right over the last few years, but not consistently.

28:46And so, and a lot of that has been because of this whole COVID thing with the bubble. I haven't been able to go swimming. I haven't been able to go to the hotel gym and go for a run during the race. Just a small, even just a small one, just enough to keep, as you know, with swimming. The swimming thing has gotta be tough, right? Like you're in Europe, you're doing these races, you're not gonna find a pool all the time. No, and swimming is the one you need to keep the feel for. And so for me, just being able to get in the pool, even just at the end of the day for a kilometer or two, make a massive difference to having 10 days off.

29:20Cause otherwise you tend to go home and it's like you're starting all over again for someone like myself without a swimming background. And anyway, and so again, I was thinking though, but it's bizarre because even on a bad day, I still swim with like, you know, Lionel or Sam Long or Kinley or these guys. And, but I don't actually, it's when I'm not, don't even get to train, you know. I know it's insane. It's insane that you can basically the way that I envision it. And it's probably not like this, but it's sort of like you're in Europe doing whatever you're doing with the team. And you're sort of on standby as a domestique or a super domestique.

29:55you don't always know if you're gonna be enlisted to do this race or that, which makes it difficult for you to plan your race schedule with respect to triathlon. It's kind of a standby thing, right? So you're always sort of training, but not really sure what you're training for. And then you're like, okay, well, I'm gonna scoot out and do this Ironman and you parachute into some race after not having swum at all, but somehow you're able to stay in contact with the lead group out of the water. Like what is going, I mean, the best - I like these bunch skills. The craziest example, maybe there's a crazier one, but the one that struck me was in, was it, I get all the dates confused, but right before St.

30:36George, you're at Paris-Roubaix. Right, Paris-Roubaix, like the most insane, brutal, one day cycling race there is. And you're on the lead out in the cobbles, basically blazing the path for the team and really set the team up for a win. And then you basically split from there and drop in on St. George and lead that race on the bike. You basically towed Christian the whole way and set him up for the win. But the fact that you didn't even think that you were gonna be doing that race, right? Because you were supposed to be doing something else for Ineos. Yeah. So you weren't even really preparing for that.

31:11Well, I actually had to go to Africa the following week. So it was like, can I fit it in or not? And I decided last minute, well, I can, so I'll go. So I came here, then I went to Namibia and she did a, it was another corporate bonding thing they wanted me to do over there. But, you know, it's funny, like back to when I stopped, you know, I was doing a similar role and Peter Sargon was my teammate at Cannondale. And I guess I got to, I guess I was 30, 31. I was like, wow, my productive years are like, this is great, I'm a domestic, you know, and a big team and blah, blah, blah. But I don't want to waste my productive years doing this.

31:44That's when I moved to the US. I still had a contract fortune with Cannondale, which they honored and gave me a bit of time to find what I wanted to do. I really wanted to work in finance. I met a bunch of different people in that field and finally found a place I wanted to work down in Century City with a real estate investment firm, Mosaic was just sort of starting out. And anyway, I was there for a little bit, starting to study and Ethan, the founder of it all, he said, why would you, you could be in sport, do you wanna go back to rowing? Do you wanna go back to size? I was like, no, I'm really happy doing this.

32:20And I'd done a couple of triathlons for a bit of fun. And so I said, oh, but I enjoy this. And as only an American would, he said, I used to live in Kona. He said, you can beat those guys. I used to watch that race every year. You're better than them. And I'm thinking, mate, I've done a couple of triathlons for fun. Like only an American would say that to you. And so I kind of, you know, I took one seriously. It was Arizona as a pro. I said, if I can get off the bike, you know, quicker than Yarn had set the world record in Roth, the swim and bike combined, I'll think about learning to run. And anyway, it just sort of snowballed from there.

32:57I was able to do that. I just hobbled through the run. I didn't even bother training for the run for that one. It was all about the swim and the bike. I went back to Australia for a bit of a break, you know, before I'd come back and I thought I'd just get into finance, you know, we've got a random call from Chris Froome to do some training down there cause he was holidaying. I thought, why not? And And yeah, it ended up back in the game. I'm gonna hit pause here, cause just so the audience is clear, let's like really establish what exactly happened here, which is essentially that you start out as a rower, you grow up, you're from Tasmania, you go to the Olympics in 2004 in the lightweight double skull, right?

33:39Olympian, right? Pinnacle of sport for anybody. Somehow you reinvent yourself as a professional cyclist and then you spend how many years? Like, you know, a handful of years as a pro, you bounce around between a couple of teams, but you're on Cannondale Liquigas. Like that was like the main team you were on, right? And from what I understand, there was some sort of discontentment around like, you know, how the whole kind of like pro cycling thing operates and you were feeling dissatisfied with that and kind of hung it up. And that's where the finance thing came in. Yeah. So, you're thinking my athletic career is over.

34:15Yeah. The boss says, get the fuck back out there. What are you doing? Yeah. And you do a couple of triathlons and you go back home and you're riding with Richie Port, or one of the greatest cyclists there are. You're training with him. Yeah. It was in Tasmania. Yeah, in Tasmania. And then he goes on to win tour down under shortly thereafter, right? And you kind of set them up for that. Yeah. You get this call from an old rowing coach who's now a cycling coach, who's involved with Sky, who's like, come ride with Froome, you know, the guy at the moment. He just won the tour for the third time. Right, and then you set him up for more success.

34:53We won all three in a row after he started training with me. You're like the go-to guy, like if you wanna win a grand tour, you gotta call up Cam, because he's the secret weapon. So now it's Port, it's Froome, and now it's Garant. And these are the top guys in the world. And these guys choose to train with you. You're the guy they wanna train with. So the question is like, what is it about you? Why is it that they wanna spend all these hours, all this time? Like what are you contributing to those guys? And what are you getting out of that that is nourishing for you, but also nourishing for them and creating all of this success?

35:36Well, I guess the big thing is we're not competitors. I mean, I've always been friends with a bunch of guys from other sports, like Jimmy Johnson, for example, NASCAR, and I've learned so much from him. And he asked me so many questions, I guess because it's not confrontational. He knows I'm not going to get in a car or I might get in a car, but I'm not going to drive as fast as him. And likely I know he's not going to do an Ironman as quick as I can. And the same with these guys, I mean, they're training for something completely different, but I guess the endurance element, there's a company part.

36:08But, you know, I mean, I've got a lot of stories so I can fill in a lot of blank time. So I think the guys enjoy that. But I've always been very good at training, you know, and that was part of why I quit the first time because I could train. I know like the best in the world and I know now because I'm still training with those guys, but I could never race like that. You know, I didn't figure out the sport. You know, I just didn't know how to apply that. You were training to train just because you like training. I love training. I love exercising. I mean, I call myself a professional exerciser.

36:38And so, you know, that was the thing I went and train with through me there, you know, it was obvious that I still had a bit under the hood. So then they were like, listen, you want to come back to cycling? I said, no, I'm interested in triathlon. Okay, we'll support you with that. So, you know, obviously spent some time with me in 17, then 18, Geraint wants to win the tour and he wanted to, he was thinking about coming to LA because I'd told him during camps the previous year, how great it is here. Yeah. So the team said, Oh, Cameron, can you go out and train with him? So, you know, I'm sure, sure enough fast forward, he wins the tour that year, you know, and, and it was just, you should get like bonus for that.

37:14Yeah. I mean, the thing is, and this is what Chris said to me, we're in, so in 17, we, he just won the tour and in between the tour and the Vuelta, which he obviously won as well, we were in Chatelle training and we'd had a great camp. And at the end of that, I had had one last crack at qualifying for Kona. That was in Sweden the following weekend after we finished that little camp. And the last thing he said, you know, before I, he said, you don't have to do anything more than you're capable of, you know, like just believe in yourself, mate. Like you belong at this level. And it was, and so training with these guys day in, day out, you wonder why I think I can just like, I mean, you'd think I could do that going to, I'm not sure what's a great example, but maybe the Malibu tri or, you know, the El Segondo local triathlon, like it's one thing to do what I do and then on the bike and then go and jump into that.

38:07But I think, oh yeah, okay, I'll go and race Roubaix and then I'll go to the world championships. And I don't even think about it because I'm surrounded by these guys, you know, at this level. The best of the best. The best of the best. And I've really never known any different. It was the same in every sport that I've done. I've always been surrounded by the best guys. And I guess it's nice that I've finally found a sport that I'm competitive at and it is all about me. And if I think about sort of what's happened in the past few years with the team, like you said, there's no schedule. And I don't think that's worked as well as we thought because the idea of me coming back to the team was I'd be at a training camp with the guys.

38:49I'd be maybe stronger than a lot of the the guys on the camp. And it's like, oh, I wish we could just take Cameron, and I'm like, well, I'm happy doing triathlon, blah, blah, blah. Dave eventually said, listen, we'd really like you to be on standby. And I thought, well, that sounds great. But the team manager, but the problem sort of that eventuated the last few years was then I was all of a sudden getting called into everything. Cause it's like, Oh, Cameron's free easy. Oh, we'll take him. Oh, Cameron's at home. Oh, great. Well, he can come and do this. and all of a sudden I don't get to train properly.

39:21You know, I kind of, as I said, I go home and I'm restarting my swimming, I'm restarting my running. You know, there's no real consistency of blocks. So to be brutally honest, the last couple of years, I haven't really felt like I've been able to put the work in or perform at the level I've wanted to in either sport. It sort of hasn't been quite like it used to be, you know. And so now they've sort of, the team have said, right, what are we gonna do better this year? And they're gonna limit my racing ideally to one race a month. So I get the time to train, you know, train with the guys, push the guys, push myself, you know, get called into a race to fill a gap and whatever.

40:00And hopefully finally get to marry these two, you know, sports, cause I love doing what I do now with the guys, but I think that's because I get to go and do my own thing. Right. If it was all that all the time. I mean, the pressure like Kona, I mean, regardless of why I didn't perform, it's still, it's all on you, you know, and that there's nothing that can help you in that feeling. You are all alone, you know, if it's great, great. You get to feel all that. When things go, I just now feel like I almost wished I wasn't on the team because a lot of it was because I felt like I let so many people down, you know, I mean, I did what I could, but I felt like I let all these people down.

40:45I felt horrible. And now, I wouldn't want that all the time, like to be a leader in cycling and then have to go and do that, that would be pretty intense. So, it's a nice balance. You answered the question that I had, which is whether you, in the back of your mind, you think maybe I should let go of the pro cycling thing. And if I just went all in on triathlon and could get those consistent blocks in with the swimming and the running and give it the focus that it deserves, you could, like how much better could you be? Right, you must think about that. I do, but I also, in my mind, I picture doing it the way I'm doing it.

41:27I just haven't had a chance to do it. You know, like I'm going to the UAE next week and like I know there's swimming pools at every hotel. We stay on the water a lot of the days. So, you know, the way I see it is great. I get to race at the highest level of cycling. I'm gonna be physically, you know, cardiovascularly pushed. I just need to go and find some water to flop around in for 30 minutes just to keep the motor pattern, to then apply that fitness to swimming, you know, the week after when I go home, you know, there'll be a treadmill, I'll be able to go for a run. You know, it's like a one week training camp with a cycling focus.

41:59And then when I go home, I can switch it back into, you know, and honestly the level of pro cycling now is, it's like Ironman, it is so high. I mean, people say, what's the biggest difference when you came back? And you got to remember, I didn't race for six years until they convinced me to go back again. And things changed a lot. First thing that was funny was I just had cycling socks on, regular cotton, whatever, because that's what you always wore. I got to the start line of my first race and I looked around, everyone has their own socks on, every single person on every single team. And I thought, Oh, wow, that's different.

42:37That's already a change. Yeah, and they're cycling is, they're sticklers for their etiquette when it comes to kit. Yes, yeah, so I definitely stood out, but the one back in the old days, it was much more controlled, it was more of a gentleman's agreement a lot of days. So there was a lot of days that were pretty cruisy. And now I'm - So it's just like base training all the time. Pretty much. And I used to, you know, you chat away to your mates you hadn't seen, I was on an Italian team, so you love seeing Aussies and whatever. I don't talk to a single person when I'm racing now. It's so intense.

43:12I mean, back in those days was like, right, we all take it easy to the feed zone. We all get some food in the tank and then we race the last half of the race or the last third, but now it can kick off at any moment, a bit like triathlon. Someone can make the break at any moment and you don't know if they're going to come back with the likes of Wout Van Aert, Van Der Poel. I mean, they just have, and Sagan started, but he was sort of on his own tangent. Now there's a bunch of guys like that. And the races are just so unpredictable and exciting. Well, I heard these stories. I don't know if they're true.

43:49Tell me if they're not, that in the midst of stage races, like after a stage, you would go running in the middle of these races. And then on one day classics, you would like work out after the race. Yes. Yeah, no, I have. I mean, the other day I raced in Australia and we finished the race and I put my shoes on. It was 22K back to the hotel. So I ran back. And what are your teammates? What do they make about it? They really scratch their head, you know, and it's not that I've saved energy or, you know, I'm not tired. Of course, I'm tired, but I'm also conditioned to do that. And it's also, and another thing that I'm really proud of is, and not for me, but the respect that the guys have for the sport now, you know, I think they appreciate, they respect me, you know, for my role in the team and even in the sport.

44:40I know that other teams, you know, other athlete riders, you know, they give me space, they respect me in the peloton. And they now talk to me about, you know, the Norwegian guys, about Laila, you know, about about the women, you know, Lucy. I mean, they asked me questions like they, they always thought all the triathletes, they're just okay at everything. They're like, well, wait a minute. No, cause this guy just let us on the cobbles in Roubaix and most of the fields already been dropped. And then he goes to an Ironman and he's sort of one of the best, but he's not, exactly. He's not like, you know, head and shoulders above anyone.

45:14And these guys then get off and run too, you know? So like an appreciation for the sport of Ironman. That's a huge shift. It is because you've had people like, you mentioned Andrew Talansky. I mean, he tried to do it and came in. I mean, he never even qualified for Kona, never even looked like qualifying for Kona. You know what I mean? And it's not because Andrew is not a phenomenal athlete. But, I mean, G and I were talking about this as well the other day. G said, yeah, well, you know, maybe you are actually good at this sport. It's not that the sport's easy. That's funny.

45:55Well, what's interesting is the parallels between what Brailsford has done with British cycling, Team Sky and Ineos looks very similar to what Olav is doing in Norway by really kind of like engineering the sport to a whole new level through data and testing and Brailsford's whole thing of marginal, what is it called? Marginal gains. Yeah, marginal gains. And like, what are the guys think of that? I know it gets mocked and all of that, but like he really did, you know, revolutionize British cycling and created the most, you know, dominant team and in, you know, recent memory. Yeah, we talked about that at the camp about, you know creating a diet, like a team, like a great team.

46:40You know, the book would do great. It's like, it's a great team and people say, well, how do we, and it's like, well, it already is because it's not only, you know, there was whatever the eight tour wins, but it was seven, I can't, a lot, but there were four different guys. Yeah. And also you plug someone like me in there, okay, I'm not winning the tour, but I'm having success in another sport. Like, that to me is a great organization. You know what I mean? And if I look at it from my perspective, one of the biggest things was when I was getting supported just in Ironman, how's hard all the staff work, I'll go to a camp and everything's there.

47:18And you just, that culture, like the way Dave chooses the people to work there, chooses the riders, everyone's working their backside off. And that filters through to your training. You go out and train, you're like, well, I'm not gonna sandbag today because I can see all these other guys, Tim Kerrison, the coach, like our version of off, like he's there every day following us. I mean, there's just a commitment to excellence across the board. So you feel compelled to show up for that. Yeah, and back in the marginal gains was not like the Norwegian, like the science so much, there was no lactate testing or no VO2 testing.

47:56We actually never do any of that. And I will say like, unless you know what you're doing, don't do it, you're better off working hard. But it was like chefs, it was mattresses, pillow, things to help you sleep, investing heavily in massage therapy, you know, the best carers, et cetera. But also I think listening to him talk and then comparing it to Tim, like the way that he kind of, he's close, you know, as in it's like, you know, like a fan, you know, really keeps an eye on them very much a part of their lives, but obviously needs to keep a level of to be able to tell them what to do. And that is identical to Tim Kerrison, you know, like he was always there.

48:42He's been a part of all our lives. Like we've all got married. We've all had kids, you know, like he's been, you know, a part of all that. Yet when the time comes, he knows when to say, you got to go and do this, you know, or come down on you or whatever else. And also that most people don't want all those good guys challenging them, you know. I mean, the good guys want to be, but he created that environment where it was normal for like, like, you know, Geron or Froomey or Richie Porte to be like proving they're stronger than each other. Right, nobody's king for more than a day. Like it's all, nobody's resting on it.

49:21Like normally, typically, historically in pro cycling, like if you won the tour or, you know, you're just, you can be expected to be the leader the following year. And my sense is that that's not really the case. No, no. And perhaps, you know, that must have caused issues or friction with, you know, Froome and Geron at times and like not knowing who is the team leader and all of that. Yep. Oh, absolutely it did. I mean, obviously there was Bradley and Chris which was a big one. And then obviously when Geraint won, I mean, Froomey was peeved, you know, like he - And even this year for Geraint, like not sort of, it just feels like he's not being accorded the respect on some level.

50:00Yeah, I mean, it's not - Exactly. You know, for what he's done, I mean, he just got third. Yeah, yeah. And he's not gonna race the tour this year. No, he's off to the Giro. Yeah. So, I mean, partly a bit of that might be his choice, but again, it does come down to, well, okay, we'll have to go back to the drawing board and see how we're gonna try and win it. And in any other team, that performance would be ruthless. You got third, right? Okay, that's built on that, try and get you back to the top. So it's a tension between, that kind of like ruthlessness that comes with performing at just the absolute next level of everything But also a big part of the success has to be the esprit de corps, like creating kind of that team unity.

50:46I feel like that's a role that you play and probably why, a big part of why they want you around, like, yeah, you're a great exerciser or whatever, and you're a great super domestique. But my sense is that like people like having you around and you make the team better, just not just by your performances, but also by your personality. Yeah, I mean, there's a few things. I've always thought like, you know, a player that makes the team great can be, is as valuable as a great player. And I've always, I always in rowing wanted to be the worst guy on the boat because that meant that everyone had to be better than me.

51:20So then we had a great crew and then say me on this, I love being number 30, cause the harder I train, the better I am better at 29, 29 other guys have to be, you know, but yeah, Tom Pidcock sort of nicknamed me, you know, CMO chief morale officer because, because, and I think that like Roubaix for example is a great example, you know what I mean? I wasn't meant to do it obviously, the team was hot, you know, they were winning everything and all of a sudden they decided to send me in. I don't know who it was that made that call, you know, thought, wow, that's bringing the, you know, this guy on the front, the traveling on the front to lead us onto the cobble section.

51:57I mean, I remember like I went in and I did a race during the week and I thought I was going for that. And the team won that Magnus Sheffield won that. and then they had the team for Roubaix and then a couple of days later, they said, oh, Cameron, maybe just stay a couple of days, just do the recon just in case. And I was like, oh, why not? I've never really seen those cobbles. I'll go and check it all out. And you'd never done that race before? I had, I'd done it in 2010, but it was a long, long time ago. So, and back then, you had tubular tires and aluminum rims and very different bikes. and it was a very different memory apart from being very painful.

52:40And so it was very, I was intrigued to see sort of how it'll work now with tubeless tires, disc brakes, you know, completely different. Anyway, so I went and did the recon and then, you know, they came and said, listen, we'd like you to race if that's, if you're happy with that. I said, well, I've got nothing else to do on Sunday. I may as well. And so, you know, you come in and, and, and I did, I mean, I, I guess it, it provided a different spark. Like the team had been so hot, they'd been winning, but how do you sort of keep it there? You know, and as it turned out, I mean, that was then the last, that was the last race we won that spring.

53:13So who knows, maybe someone had sensed, look, the, I don't know, the drive is sort of maybe just a bit, you know, we need something else to change it. And, and I kind of feel like that a lot when I turn up because I'm not meant to necessarily be part of the, you know, the first picked, but when they throw me in, it's like a different conversation at the table. You know what I mean? The guys all seem genuinely happy to see me there. And it's like a player coming off the bench, isn't it? You know, sometimes they can change the game. Exactly. A pinch hitter. Like they come in, they can change the game.

53:46And yeah, I mean, I don't want to bump my own horn or pat myself on the back, but I kind of feel like I, I do have that opportunity to play that role in this team just by having a good attitude. You know what I mean? At the end of the day, we're all good athletes. We're all pretty similar. There's not a big difference between anyone. We all train the same. We all hit the same numbers. We're all basically the same weight. We're on the same bikes. I mean, Mike Riley says it the best, doesn't he? There's so much stuff out there in sport and life that you can't control. The only thing you can control is your attitude.

54:17And I just try and make sure that that's a, I mean, it costs nothing for it to be a positive one. Yeah. Well, you're, you definitely have a positive attitude and, and I, I imagine the the fact that you can go off and do Ironmans and then come back to the team keeps it fresh for you. And it doesn't start to feel like a slog. It's like, you know, those Belgian winters and like, I mean, it sounds brutal. Yeah. A lot of it, like it's sexy, like, oh my God, grand tours and all of that. But the day to day of being a professional cyclist, especially when you're not, you know, a Froome or a Garant like, it's a hard life.

54:51Yeah, well, I went through that. I went through the part of you think you might become it. and then the realization that you're not and you're just one of like a good team, on a good team, you know, and yeah, it's lonely. You know, it was hard to meet anyone. I mean, your lifestyle is you're all over the place and yeah, I mean, I'd had enough and I mean, I'm glad I had the courage to just say, listen, that's fine. I'm just not cut out for this. It's not, I'm not good enough, you know, to be where I want to be and I want to put my effort into something constructive with my life And yeah, to having, and it's, and it's, and back to that story about, you know, Ethan, who I was gonna work with, he's actually been to Kona every year, obviously to support me, you know, so that's been a really nice.

55:37The job offer is still like an open door, right? I was actually in there. He raised that fund, they sold that fund. And then he's doing one more. And I actually spent the day in the office with him on Tuesday with the new team. He'd like me to be in, you know, this one, And because obviously who knows how long I'll compete for, but I've always wanted to work or do something in that world. And he obviously is one of my biggest supporters. He wants to see me try and win Kona. So he's not gonna say, listen, come and get in the, you got to strap into that chair. We'll put a bike under the chair, under the desk and you can pedal away.

56:13Obviously sports to the progress, but he's given me the opportunity to come in at the foundation part of a new fund, which is quite an opportunity with some great people. and just have something different going on in your brain. You know, I'm 39 now, you know, I don't, you go to a race and the guys are, you know, some of them are talking about Pokemon for crying out loud. Like it's a different generation, you know, and it's nice to have, you know, I'm going to read, you know, I read a lot of books. I've actually just started reading yours and I read a lot, you know, as much as I can. And, you know, now I'll just be reading some, you know, Real estate, financial reports.

56:53You're gonna pull a Simon Gerrans. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're motivated and excited about it. I think that's the most important thing, you know, and continue to learn. I mean, life's about learning, isn't it? Well, I think you got a lot more to do in sport and we're gonna get to next chapters in a little bit, but while we're here in the present. And what you just shared, what struck me is the fact that on the one hand, you're arguably the world's greatest endurance athlete from a versatility perspective perspective. Like, you know, the fact that you've done what you've done in rowing, cycling and triathlon, like it's pretty extraordinary.

57:34The only person that comes to mind that might challenge you for that crown is Sheila Taramina. Do you remember her? Yeah, you're too young probably. I was just thinking born to run that sort of word, but it's not that. No, no, no. This was an athlete who competed in four Olympics and three sports. Wow, okay. Swimming, I think she won a gold on a relay and then triathlon. I think she went to two Olympiads in triathlon and then she competed in the Olympics in modern pentathlon. Wow. Which is like where you like horse riding and you shoot a gun and like a totally different thing, right? Which is pretty fucking badass.

58:14I don't know if anybody's ever matched that, but in current times and certainly in present times, like to me, you wear that crown. And yet at the same time, you're still like not the best at any of these things. But what I see and what I think is really laudable is a very conscious effort to always be surrounding yourself with people that are better than you at what they do. And so you've had this incredible career where you're like in the company of the world's greatest in the things that you love the most. And so I guess the question that I have is like, what is it about those people that make them special or different?

58:56When you look at Froome and when you look at Garant and Richie Port and these guys, like is there a commonality? Are there themes across the way that these individuals operate that distinguish them from the others? Because as you said, like everybody weighs the same, everybody trains just as hard. Certainly there are genetic differences, et cetera, but from perhaps a mental perspective or just a level of professionalism that they bring to what they do. Like what have you learned that has helped you level up as an athlete? Well, I guess it really, well, it hit home seeing it, but if I can just briefly bring the Norwegians into it and it's something that I'd actually done for a long, like these marathons they'll do the weekend before.

59:41I mean, I often did those sessions, everyone laughed at me, it was like, you can't do that, blah, blah, blah. Obviously they come and do it, then they perform. Now, where I'm getting to that is if you haven't done it in training, you're not going to do it in a race. And what I saw when I started training with Chris was that, I'll give you an example. We're in Chetel at that camp in between the Tour and the Vuelta. So he's just won the Tour in pretty great shape. I've never seen him train like that for that three weeks. He just was flying. He'd recovered well from the Tour for a week and then he just got back into it.

1:00:16And Tim loved devising a race simulation type effort. And it was often a climb followed by a section that would then lead to a final climb. At a period in the year where most people are taking a break or doing base training. If you're doing the Vuelta after the tour, you're like, look, I've done enough training. I'm just gonna absorb it. And I'm gonna get to the Vuelta and I'll be nice and fresh and I'll have some strength there and I'll probably do very well, not for me. And so he's devised this workout. It was, we went and he's like, right, Chris will do this climb. He's going to do it at threshold.

1:00:53So you wait at the top cause you know, you'll get dropped. So I went up ahead and then there was like a 10 K pretty flat section, sort of false flat said, now you're going to go threshold there and he's going to be on your wheel. So he gets a break, but he doesn't really get a break. He's still going to be around, you know, 300, 350 Watts just holding your wheel. So keep the pressure on. And then we're going to chuck a right. We're going to go up this brick wall, like 20%. He's going to go up there flat out because that's the finish. And it was to simulate the first mountain stage in the Vuelta, which happened to be actually in Andorra where I live.

1:01:25So now I do that climb all the time. So anyway, off I went. I went ahead and I'm waiting for Chris. Tim comes up in the car. He's like, right, he's coming. You know, get ready. So get ready. Get in the right spot. Got him on the wheel. We're coming and, you know, we're coming along a road and a main road and it's about to intersect a major, the major road. And it's just like, all we had to do was sort of, you know, come onto it, you know, veer onto it and then go along about two, 300 meters and he hit this other climb. And next thing, we're a few, a K or so from that point and Tim goes past and we're like, yeah, whatever.

1:02:00And we get to this road, this intersection where we start, we better look for cars. And there's the Team Sky car blocking the traffic. Like he has parked this thing in the middle of the road, like right in the middle. You could not, there's cars popped up and he's standing on the other side like this, like a policeman stopping people. So we just ping it straight through this intersection, these cars honking and hollering. You know, I keep towing through me, chucks the right, goes up this climb and I creep up it at my own pace. But it just, it's an example. It's an example first. You've got a guy here that is so good yet he's prepared to put himself through that in training still.

1:02:39He's just won four Tour de France's. Right. And then he's gone through and done this. And obviously then you fast forward a couple of weeks, first stage of the world. So you know what happens? He didn't win the stage Nibali won because it actually had a descent. Nibali got back and got him in a sprint, but for him he went into red, never relinquished the lead. You know, he blew the rest of the field away. Nibali had already lost time. And I was watching it on TV. He just got, okay, here we go. Yeah, okay. Now he's going to do this bang. You did it, you know? And then obviously with Geraint then after that, You know, it was, and, and even, you know, with Richie as well, when we'd be back in Australia with Tim coaching him.

1:03:18Yeah. There's just been so many examples of like this simulated, simulated work that, you know, they go to a race and all they have to do is, you know, there's always been this talk of the sky train. You know, we were in Tenerife and we all lined up and that was before I was on the team. That was when I was just training with them and I'd have my spot in the line. Often it was the first guy. I sometimes I'd be stronger than a few of the guys on the team. So I might be two or three back and it's the full lead out, you know, and then you have at the end, you know, for me or G or whoever, you know, racing it out to the top, you know, and, and that was common, you know, Tim Kerrison would, would improvise that, which is exactly what I'll have does with the, with the boys, you know, it's, it's, if you haven't done it in training, you will not do it in a race.

1:04:03Yeah. It's that simple. Yet these endurance sports, I think forever in a day, you'd be very hard pressed to find people that would be like, yeah, I'm gonna go and do that because it's like, no, you just gotta put the hours in and then it all comes together on race day. Right. Well, you know what, it doesn't. You know, it doesn't. So, that would be, is that a good answer? Yeah, I think that's a really good answer. I mean, basically like they're, I mean, the short version of that is they're not fucking around, right? And they're very intentional about everything that they're doing. and - Am I allowed to bring a swimming one?

1:04:38A what? A swimming story. It's a bit controversial. So that first time I trained with Chris, that was when we decided Tim Kerrison said, you want to come back to the cycling. I said, I'd like to do triat. He said, okay, we've got to teach you to swim. And you got to remember after Tim had been rowing coach, he went to swimming and he was with the Australian Olympic team in Athens, Beijing. And then he went to British swimming and then that's how he ended up in team sky. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, so all of his friends were from - This guy's like perfect for you. Amazing. So I've trained with Chris, you know, and then on the last days, like, right, I'm gonna draw.

1:05:13He lived up on Mount Tambourine, which is about 40 minutes from the beach. And he's like, right, I'm gonna take you to my friend swimming coach. I rock up to Dennis Cottrell squad and Sun Yang's there. So I get in the pool, you know, and I haven't swum really much in, you know, years. Like I was just like, it was like something we were thinking about doing. and I'm swimming with him. So that first year when I'm in Australia, I get to go along and train with Sun Yang. Anyway, one night he was doing 200s and on the last one, Dennis said, right, he's, watch this, you know, he's going to go out pretty hard.

1:05:50He'll have a look at the clock with 50 to go and he'll decide whether he goes for it. And he swam like a 146 something, you know, like not far off the world record at the time, but you just saw like he got to about 30 meters from the wall. You know, he'd obviously had a glance at the clock to see and the kick and the water just went everywhere. Okay. And I know Sun Yang is not a great, you know, there's obviously been the controversy about him, but it's the same principle. And swimming is, I think one of the best examples of it, as you know, like those guys, they're breaking more records in training.

1:06:21They go to a race and they know they're going to do it. And I just think in endurance sport, but there's been some of these outliers that have been prepared to put themselves through that because it's a bit different than hurting yourself for a minute 46. Right. Christian and Gustaf have to go and run a 240 marathon. Yeah, it's a whole different thing. It's a bit of a different thing. You're like this weird Forrest Gump type character where you're like, oh, I gotta learn how to swim a little bit. And then boom, like the most elite person just appears in your... It was the first person's feet I had to swim on.

1:06:54And then you go, like the people show up that you need to like kind of get you to the next thing. Like it's a weird series of happenstances that have kind of created the loudest work of your career. Yeah, and Bradley Wiggins once said to me that, until you've got everything lined up, like everything is perfect, your team, your family, your support, network, everything. Don't even bother putting everything into it because you'll never be as good as you could be. but once you've got that, you've got like two or three years and make the most of it. And, you know, I've had to build, you know, build my way through another sport, you know, pick and, you know, and another, like the swimming obviously is a bit my Achilles heel, you know, in the sport of triathlon, as you know, the dynamics of all that changes a lot.

1:07:41All of a sudden, like a Magnus Ditlev, you know, he can swim quite well. He can get to the front. and he can be provide, apply cycling. If I swim well in a race, I'm normally on the front foot and it's up to me to kind of lose. If I swim poorly, like what happened in Kona, I'm not even in the race. Yeah, which is, I mean, that's new. It used to be, you really could get away with not being a swimmer. You get the wetsuit on and it like, it just coddles the non swimmer. It does. And the gaps, the swims not long enough to really be substantial in terms of making a big difference. but now you really have to be, you have to excel on all three.

1:08:17Like you can't get away with it anymore. No, and one big thing was in Andorra, we had a, in 2018, we had a 50 meter pool that shut it to repair it. Spent two years renovating it and then they had a fire. So it's just reopened and it's only something I've been waiting for. It's like, right, once that pool opens, I can get into my swimming. Once that pool, anyway, finally now it's reopened. And so I've got a wife, beautiful wife, she's studying, she's doing a master where she wasn't until she had our boy at the start of COVID, but she's almost finished a master in holistic nutrition, leaves a fantastic lifestyle and keeps the fuel tank, as perfect as she possibly can be in the house, great support, little boy, I've got this support network of the team.

1:09:03And now I've got Brett Kirby at Nike that does all my running, who obviously is involved with Kipchoge and everything else. And now I've got the sub two. The original one. Yeah, the original one. So he did all that. And then of course he was part of the Ineos the second time around, not as much, that was more Ineos. What is it with Ineos that they're just, I mean, best cycling team, Formula One, Kipchoge. Yeah, I mean, Jim just wants to win all the biggest events. Yeah. Yeah, so, and it's like stuff that he loves Africa. I mean, that I think is a lot of, you know, with Elliot and they've also, they've expanding that.

1:09:45So that's fascinating. You bring that up because Elliot, he's like, we've got all these, we've got all the, and I'm actually due to go to World of Rats soon. There's, we've got all these guys that are great runners. They can run a 204 or 205. They'll never win the Olympics, but they've got amazing engines. They might be great cyclists. So he said to Jim, how about you, you know, how about we invest in, I think Elliot invested in it too, in a cycling academy. And so they've built this center up there next to the running group and they're gonna see if they can develop. It's pretty cool. Yeah, I've heard a little bit about that.

1:10:18I think that's like really cool. Yeah, and when they get injured and they can't run anymore, like why waste this engine? You know, I mean, you're talking about some of the most phenomenal athletes on the planet. Right. You know, so Jim loves, certainly loves Africa and his fantastic supports in that way. The America's Cup thing, they've never won that. That's like a real opportunity for him to fund something and back something that brings that to Britain that they'd never had before. And then obviously he's got his passion in soccer, in football, he's now talking about buying Manchester United, et cetera, involved in the all blacks, the cycling team.

1:10:58But yeah, I mean, he's just passionate about sports and I think he was a big Brexiteer, and moved to Monaco and was saving a lot of money in tax. And he said, well, you know what? I'm gonna invest all that in sport. He literally has invested billions in pretty sport. And so, yeah, we're all very fortunate to benefit from that. In thinking about what makes you different, like what your distinguishing talents are, I mean, your willingness to suffer and your love of just getting out there and getting after it, like with just unreal consistency is a big part of it. And in thinking about that, I started thinking about like rowing and like what you learned as a young person, as a rower.

1:11:48And then my path in swimming, like I think even though like rowing and swimming are very different sports, one thing that they share in common is that they're like workhorse sports. Like they're sports that reward you for putting in a tremendous amount of work and volume. And it's kind of insane because you literally train like almost as much as like a tour cyclist for races that are anywhere from, you know, 20, 19 seconds to three, five minutes. You know, I don't know how long the longest ones in rowing are, but they're not that long, right? But you develop this capacity to, you know, push yourself very hard and you develop that kind of engine that then becomes applicable in these other sports.

1:12:34Like you can kind of use it in different ways and you're the shining example of deploying it in different ways. Yeah, I even as a 17, 18 year old, I used to have six hours Saturdays, and we'd go rowing in the morning, I'd go home, maybe 90 minutes, I'd go home, do some weights and maybe an hour and whatever I had left, I did on the bike. And so at that age, I'd be on the bike for, But rowers, it's one speed. And so every single Saturday, you just come home barely making it. I mean, you cross-eyed, you have no idea how to fuel yourself and nutrition and whatever else. So that's actually not a great habit to get into.

1:13:13It took a while to learn that's not smart because then the next day you're destroyed and you cannot train. But absolutely, I mean, in rowing, it's, I mean, people ask what your favorite, what was the hardest or whatever. And I always say, well, they're all pretty challenging, but rowing obviously gave me great foundation, you know? And I think like swimming to have the dedication to train for that many hours, knowing that you're going to compete for such a short period of time, it kind of makes what I do now, like half the time, I feel like I haven't done enough, you know, like you go for a run like today, you just, you know, you ride for four and a half hours and do some efforts to go for a run, do a few efforts for an hour.

1:13:53And you feel like, well, gosh, but I've got to run a marathon when I race. like, is this gonna be enough? You know, whereas when you're rowing or swimming, you know, you're always - There's no question. Yeah, you're always so beyond that. You're like, why on earth are we doing this again today? You know? Yeah, I still think that. I still think there's a lot of craziness. Yeah, but then the great thing with rowing, like it really does touch every party of physiology, you know, but particularly that anaerobic capacity, obviously, and that's all. If you've got that, it's easy to build the other end.

1:14:25I mean, if you got the hard part, it's like then the base is, the potential for the base is so much bigger. And so, yeah, that's what builds a VO2. I mean, it was like funny, the guys talk about their VO2 being smaller as far as doing Ironman as opposed to doing ITU. And it was very interesting to watch mine. Like, rowing was here, I started cycling, it dropped back. And then as I got better, I progressed it a bit. And now, yeah, it's sort of fallen a little bit, but to be honest, not a lot. I guess maybe I train a bit, you know, in that zone, maybe more than most guys still, because I'm used to it.

1:15:08I don't know. At a higher zone, you mean? Yeah, potentially, you know, I mean, I did have a little flirtation with ITU at one point. Yeah, very, very, very brief. So you must have boosted it back up for that. Yeah, yeah, well, I did some hard running and everything else, but that's just another sport. I mean, what those guys do, it's groundbreaking. I mean, it's, but having said that, if you come from it, you've got the muscle memory. I don't have it. I was trying to develop it at like 36, 37. Yeah. Something that I'd never had, running that quick or swimming that quick. But I thought, well, if I'm a good triathlete, I should be able to do it.

1:15:46It wasn't the case. And it's fascinating. Because you're going in reverse. I mean, most of those guys that you start with the speed and you build the endurance on top of that. Yeah, which is like I said with running. You're going from the endurance and going back, trying to go back to the fast. Yeah, and it just blew my mind, like how you can, and that I believe I'm pretty good at Ironman and can be so bad at that, when it's still swim, bike, run. So yeah, I won't do anymore.

1:16:20The various like body composition changes that you must have experienced by, you know, being in these three different sports has gotta be super interesting. I was listening to you talking with Garrett on his podcast about some changes. Like people think of you incorrectly as just this pro cyclist world tour, obviously, excels on the bike leg, but they're not appreciating the fact that you can run a 244 marathon. Like you're, and running, there's still so much room for you to improve because it just doesn't get the attention that it deserves. And I know that you're shifting that with what you're doing with the Kipchoge's coach and all of that.

1:17:05but you were talking about how, when you really started to double down a little bit on your running that you actually gained muscle mass on your legs, where you would think going from cycling legs to more running, you're gonna slim down and get actually leaner. Yeah, I mean, it's a bit like rowing. I was quite lean then and you build muscle, but then when you become efficient, because I look at - Then it leans out. You lean out. I look at Alistair Brownlee, he's like a rake or even Sam Lalo, he's quite fine, but they swim so you think how? And I, in, in, in swimming, I'm kind of, you know, I've come into the sport, my lats have come back, my back has come back, but when I'm swimming well, I finally start to, you know, trim out a bit because, you know, I get more efficient in the water.

1:17:50And the same thing when I had to really apply myself to running back at the beginning of 19, you know, where I was first doing those hundred K weeks, I just actually got heavier. I just kept getting heavier and heavier, more muscle mass, more muscle mass. And then when I finally started getting on top of the training after a few months, then they find down again. And so it's, I've always remained around that 70, 72 kilogram marker, but the sort of weight just has kind of shifted. You know, obviously when I went to cycling, it was very similar, you know, you built muscle on the legs and obviously you lost it up top and then you find down on the legs as well.

1:18:23So I was able to be a bit lighter then, but now when I came into obviously triathlon, as soon as you start swimming, your body's like, wow, I need muscle. So it grows and, but I'm starting to get to a point I feel where I'm getting more efficient and I'll start to sort of lean down which is how I'll get myself to the optimal composition to be able to do the optimal race that I dream about doing. Right, you have to be in this, but you've gotta be in this state where you're able to excel as a cyclist and a triathlete at any given moment. And so it's not an idealized state for either of them. You have to find like, you know a way of like merging those two things so that you can.

1:19:04I have to accept that I'm gonna be as good as I can be in cycling. You know, I mean to me, Ironman is the priority. That's the one I wanna win at. And fortunately, you know I can turn up to a bike race and contribute. You know, I'm good enough that I'm better than a lot of guys that do a similar role without really having to do anything specific to do that, you know, and to try and then utilize that to benefit the Ironman. And yeah, okay. At this point, I probably haven't quite seen it. Having said that, you know, I've ridden some pretty quick bike splits and run pretty well for the past couple of years or few years, but it's, yeah, I thought it'd be easier obviously, but I think COVID has kind of changed everything.

1:19:52I mean, my first race back, I did the race in Australia and then I ran 30K afterwards. And I thought, wow, this is gonna be amazing. I'm gonna, this is just gonna be the most perfect, like hard brick sessions. You do a hard race, you're on your hands and knees and then you got to figure out how to run. And then when I get to - You get that opportunity to run on really tired legs. Really, really tired legs. Like that's like a real privilege, like it's something my peers don't get to do. And if I can train myself to do that, you know, get into a race, no matter what happens, I'll be ready for that.

1:20:25You know, I'll be ready to absolutely bury myself if I have to, to get into it. And then all be prepared to try and put them under pressure knowing that, you know what, I mean, I know I'm taking the edge off you, but that's going to bring you close to my mark so I can actually race you now, even though I know you're a better runner. So, yeah, you know, I'm in it now. I gotta believe that it's the right thing because that's what I'm faced with. The differences in culture between triathlon and professional cycling are significant on some level. Are they not like, with the exception of the story you just told about Froome and like pinning that climb.

1:21:06There's a lot of like five to eight hour rides with coffee stops when you're a cyclist. It seems relatively laid back and at times maybe from a bird's eye view, not as structured as one might think. Whereas triathletes tend to be, you know, staring at their garments constantly and losing their minds over data points and, you know, kind of perhaps not seeing the forest for the trees. Like it seems the approach seems very different. Like how do you think about that or? Yeah, fitting in the day, you know, like fitting everything into the day is difficult, you know. And I think that's another point you make about the guys.

1:21:45that's another quality those guys particularly have is, you know, Chris, I've been with Chris on a general ride, you know, six, seven hours in Tenerife and we've been going so slow. We get passed by people with panniers on their bikes, like cyclo tourists, you know, it's like the day in between his hard day. And it's more like training himself active recovery. You know, he's like gotta be on his bike. He's got to recover because he knows a big stage is coming up. And then the next day he'll come down to breakfast with, you know, like a, one of those little gel shot flask things, but he fills it up with like three espressos because, you know, for his last super threshold effort, you know, he needs a booster like to him, it's like race day, you know?

1:22:26So you're right. I mean, I'd say almost half the time cycling is pretty relaxed, pretty cruisy. And when the guys like, Oh, do you want to stop whatever? I'm like, ah, yeah, well, but if I don't get going, I mean, I got to get to the pool before it closes or, you know, I want to run, I got to run before the sun goes down or, you know, so I can actually make it to dinner. But as far as the technical element of it, I mean, yeah, I mean, they, I don't, it's, it's strange because it's on, it seems to be on very different tangents, you know, I mean, to me, the triathletes would worry about stuff that I wouldn't even think you'd need to worry about.

1:23:05And the cyclists worry about, you know, numbers at a whole sort of different level because that's the level they race at. So to me, you'd think like worrying about, you know, your efficiency at 300 Watts or something, it's like pointless because I spend all my time with cyclists and it's like, you know, that's sort of just a given, you know, I mean, you know, it's already taken care of. It's already sort of taken care of. So, um, yeah, I, and, and I mean, even in Andorra, you know, I'm being the the only one there for a long time. Jan's recently moved there and not that I've had much to do with him, but I'm really excited because Hayden Wild's moving there, and probably one of the best, one of Christian's biggest rivals, Gustav for the Olympics.

1:23:49And a great guy. Basso lives there, right? Sorry? Doesn't Ivan Basso? No, no, he lived in Italy. I used to train with him when I was at Liquigas. So where I lived in Italy, I used to train with him, but in Andorra, I mean, there's everyone, You know, Tom Pidcock, I mean, a lot of the, I mean, we've got 20 riders from our team that are living there. You know, a bunch of movie star guys, you know, a bunch of guys from Jumbo, I mean, every team Trek, you know, Julian Alaphilippe. I mean, we've got, I mean, a bunch of MotoGP guys. It's one of those great environments, I guess probably like Baldwars back in the day where you just, all these, everyone's good.

1:24:25And you know, the days you sort of feel like, oh gosh, I'm a bit tired. I don't really want to do it. you just have to look around and see who's doing it. And you're like, well, I got to do it. It has that real feel for it. And so, yeah, I've never really fallen into the triathlete way of doing things. And I've never really trained with triathletes because of it, I think, because the odd time I've done a couple of sessions, like I've been with Yarn or whatever, it is so different to how I do things. I mean, just the whole - That's always been the case for you though, right? You've always been kind of not necessarily contrarian, but pretty clear on a way of doing things that works for you that doesn't necessarily fit any kind of program or modality that anybody else is doing.

1:25:12Like, where does that confidence come from? Do you even like, okay, so you're working with the guy at Nike on your running, but like, do you even have a coach? Yeah, not a specific run. Who's overseeing everything what you're doing? Yeah, I mean, Tim Karras, but they kind of had the whole breaking to the second time around between Nike and Ineos was a bit of a, it was a bit, yeah, there was, there was, you know, Nike sort of didn't, uh, didn't do it again for, because they didn't feel like, you know, the reason they did the first one was to teach Elliot or to help Elliot believe that he could run that quick.

1:25:44And they felt the next time he would do it would be in a race. Right. So when Ineos came in and put it on, Nike were a bit blindsided by it. And, you know, there was a bit of funny feeling there and I kind of got caught the crossfires with Kereson and, and, and Brett. So they, they actually didn't correspond a lot. So, you know, for, I was, I'm pretty much like a, like an NFL team, you know, like offense and defense and, you know, Kereson's probably got the offense with the swimming and the riding. And then, you know, Brett stuck with the defense and, and often in the NFL, I hear they don't really communicate either.

1:26:17Yeah, but that's not great for you. Yeah, it works. It does. I think it kind of pushes me a bit because Brett's just purely there. How can I make you a better runner? Obviously has an understanding. He sees what I do in everything else. He has a picture of what I'm doing training wise. But often even Tim said, look, that's make the running the structure. So you tell me whatever you got going on with Brett and then I'll build everything else in around that. And for me, I guess, like you say this, when I was rowing, I hated just being the rower. I always wanted to be a bit different. You know, I didn't want to be the different one.

1:26:51That was how I got in my mind about one day wanting to do cycling. You know, I was just going to change sports, you know, and prove that I could do it. And I did that. And then all of a sudden, yeah, I went through that. And now back in triathlon, it's like, well, I don't want to be like the rest. I want to do pro cycling too, be a little bit different. And so I guess with everything I do, if it was like everyone else, I probably wouldn't like that. Yeah. You've got like some kind of like problem with authority, you know, that has you pushing back. I mean, I guess what I'm thinking is, you know, I've seen cases where in the triathlon context, let's say, you know, somebody hires Jerry to be their swim coach.

1:27:35And then they go out and they find a cycling coach and then they find a running coach and they're speaking to these three different people independently. and those people all know that one discipline very well and they know how to get you great at that. But if they're not communicating with each other, this is gonna be a disaster because you don't have a holistic plan for how to be the best triathlete you're gonna be and you're gonna get injured or you're gonna overtrain or something's gonna go sideways. Go wrong. Yeah, I mean, fortunately I've never really had any injuries and I think we made a pretty good impact on the sport.

1:28:07I mean, yeah. So, I mean, that just makes it all the more like, like, I don't know, remarkable, but also baffling. Yeah, no, it does baffle me too that we work it out. But like I said, I mean, it just means that they're only worrying about their thing. And they're all like, I mean, we're talking about the best of the best people here too. You know, it's pretty easy to trust what they're saying and believe in it. And I think it also pushes me a little bit too. I mean, if they, you have one person that was worried, oh, you just ran hard. So maybe we should back this off. often it's like, oh, am I going to be able to get through that ride and then deal with that threshold run?

1:28:43But you find a way, you know? And if you look at where the sport's going now, I mean, even that race I told you about, you know, earlier on that I had to qualify for Kona in Spain, like last minute popped in to do it. I think I went 752 or 753 that day, like just going through the motions, you know, I mean, back in the old days, like eight hours was, like you said, now in Kona, I was eight hours, which was almost never broken. And now there's 10 guys ahead of me. It's, you've got to, you know, to be competitive in this sport, you got to find a way to do it differently because no one's ever done what these guys doing.

1:29:20Yeah. You know, I mean, I've my best, you know, time in an Ironman, when I went 745 in Italy, all of a sudden, you know, a lot of guys went that speed. And until that point, and, and, and I love that. I love that the people maybe watch me and they go, I can do that. And as a kid, and I think it came from this, I desperately wanted to go to the Olympics and no one from my school had ever gone to the Olympics and Australia isn't the most encouraging society. It's not like I said about Ethan, how you could win that racing Kona, even though I'd barely done a triathlon. No one in Australia would ever say that to you.

1:29:56It was more like, we'd never had anyone at the Olympics. You're too young, you won't make it. And obviously that really drove me to make it like at a young age. So I was not far out of school. I obviously made the team. I was able to go back and I didn't go back with my chest puffed out. Like, look what I did. I went back proud as punch that I'd been able to do it, but also to show the guys that look, I was, as you know, I wasn't any better than half of you guys playing football and being on the athletics team or swim team or, you know, rowing or whatever I was doing at the school, struggling through my but you guys can all do this.

1:30:33And since then my school has had an athlete in every single Olympics in three different sports. Whoa. Your high school? My high school. In Tasmania. In Tasmania, yeah. That's fucking crazy. Yeah, and it's awesome. I love that, you know? And so then, as I said, when I saw this, you know, with Ironman, when I went 745, since then it's sort of like being the market that like a bunch of guys, like that's just what they do now. It used to be eight hours and all of a sudden now it's that. And it's, I kind of feel like the guy that people believe that they could be better than, which is fine. And unfortunately it often is the case.

1:31:14I wish I could be the best guy, but it's nice to do it in a way that makes, I think helps make the sport better. Yeah. I mean, that was the sense that I got from talking to Gustav and Christian, like, yeah, they went in and it was their first one. and they laid it down and had these historic performances. But to them, it's like they're looking at what didn't go right or what they could improve on. And they seem to be, I'm sure they're very proud, but also like kind of taking it in stride, like, okay, well, we'll see what happens next year. Now we know the course. Well, to be fair, I mean, when people say how amazing it was and I was a long way behind.

1:31:53Conditions were great too. They were, but when I look at it, I said, but yeah, it's about where I would expect it to be, which is crazy. But I said, even the way I raced, you know, as I said, I was obviously a bit on the back foot. I wasn't, you know, quite there, but I kind of expected everyone to blow up, you know, like I've on the run, like I'll just do what I did in 2019. I'll probably end up fifth, you know, I started the run in fifth and these guys all rip past me like they did in 19. Like I remember Alistair and Lionel running past and then they just blew up and I just trudged along and came fifth.

1:32:24This time no one blew up, you know, They might've blown up a bit later on, but they, and obviously at the front, they definitely didn't. And then people are, oh, it's just a mate. I say, well, the course, firstly, the conditions were great. The course is not that hard. The course is quite a fast course. If you've got the level of conditioning. And if you think about because of the Tokyo Olympics, one of the biggest talking points in sport has been is heat acclimation. And to me, I just saw a bunch of people and you had to watch the women as well that everyone's just learned how to deal with the heat.

1:33:01So it doesn't affect them like it used to. Like Kona, that used to be the big thing. Everyone's throwing up. Nobody could get their nutrition straight. No one will ever go their fastest or their best in Kona. Like it's impossible, you know, because of this. And these guys through science, but also through the age we are in sport with, you know, different things. And we can talk about that if you like, like the forefront now and moving sport forward, endurance sport, but heat acclimation is a big one. And those guys had that dialed. I mean, you got the guy that won in Tokyo for starters and he's training with another guy.

1:33:39So there's two guys, you know, knew everything about it. But if they know about it, of course, all those other guys and me included, I did training for it, you know, which I'd never done before. And so. But those guys have Olaf and like, who are you looking to help you solve those kinds of problems? Yeah, well the team, I mean, it was funny because obviously we had guys that went to the Olympics. So Tim Kerrison had some protocols. I got a sauna at home. So I'd run in the treadmill, jump in the sauna. And to be honest, I actually didn't do much for Kona. I was doing a lot of it the year before when I won Copenhagen, when we thought Kona was gonna happen.

1:34:15That was gonna be your year. That was everything was on track. And then it kind of this last year was quite dysfunctional and it just never got in the groove. But it was funny because Brett, you know, Brett Kirby, I said, well, what did you guys do with Elliot? And he said, oh, we could send you his jacket if you like. Like they just sent him a jacket. He just ran into jacket, you know, and got warm. And that was how he did his sake. But he didn't do that before, you know? I mean, that was what he did for Tokyo. So that was like a big revolution in endurance sport, to be honest, which is crazy, but it was brought about by the Olympics.

1:34:57And obviously the guys and the girls took that to Kona and now it's, yeah, it's just a pretty fast course now as it should be, you know, if you look at the, and if there's no wind, you're gonna see some of the fastest times ever. The pavement is so fast. I've ridden that course so many times. I mean, if you get lucky with the wind, even the climbs don't feel that climbing at all. No, no one uses a small chain ring. No. It's quick. And just watching it, it just looked like these guys are on the rivet like the entire time. Like there is no breather. Yeah, we're racing. And that was always my thing with the sport.

1:35:37When I came in, it's like, I wanna turn this into a race. So it's exciting. And when I'm racing, I feel like I'm always racing because I'm either behind trying to catch up or I'm in front and I'm trying to get further in front. And then on the run, it's like, how do you try and win this thing? Seeing guys just bubbling along in the pack, and then they run through. I mean, there's a reason why I guess there's only a number of us that people talk about, because we try and win it. We try and race the race. You can be smart and have a pretty good success rate as far as results go by playing the game.

1:36:16But yeah, it's sport, you're there to compete. So I prefer to turn it into a race. What's your sense of the state of the union when it comes to doping and anti-doping as somebody who's, look, you're in the pro cycling world, the history of that is what it is. what does that look like now versus what it was? And what does it look like in triathlon and what are the differences? Well, in theory we're governed by pretty much the same rules. I mean, cycling imposes a couple of extra little unethical things that they can't actually test for, but you're not allowed to do it. Like I guess IVs is a big one, not that we do that in triathlon, but after a trial, obviously medical tent, You can have one to rehydrate, et cetera.

1:37:05And it's not frowned upon. Whereas in cycling, you know, you have to, but to me, cause I started cycling in 2007, you know, the end of the Lance. And then we had a period there was some crazy results on night, you know, chair like, you know, Dennis Menchoff, DeLuca, I remember one Giro just, it was just insane watching these guys sprinting against each other. And obviously a bunch of, you know, scandals through there, Puerto, et cetera. The big thing that had to change, because if athletes want to cheat, they're going to find a way to do it. The guys that don't cheat are the ones that are most worried because if something went wrong, we have no idea why or how to defend ourselves.

1:37:46But the thing that I saw was it became not acceptable in the sport to cheat from the athletes. It was like, okay, we're going to keep an eye on each other now. And when you're doing the wrong thing, we're gonna say something. And you see it, I mean, without having to say any names, you see athletes just disappear. Or when they get caught, they're not welcomed back the way other athletes are. Some athletes took a ban, but it's like, look, he's good enough to do it clean. He'll come back to a big team. So, let me understand. So basically what you're saying is when incidents occur, instead of it ending up on the front page of Le Keep or whatever and becoming like a global scandal, you're sort of ushered to the back of a van and like.

1:38:32No, I mean, if incidents occur, they're dealt with. I mean, if someone's positive, I mean, that's black and white, but it's more if people sense something and they're not discovered, you know, then you just see athletes sort of exactly. I see. They're not getting caught. Like they're not getting caught, but people around them know, and then they're sort of dealt with and dispensed with. Exactly. And that's because you're potentially affecting a hundred jobs. I mean, I know Jim Radcliffe, for example, if there was some sort of issue with us, that'd be it. The team be gone with just one athlete.

1:39:08I mean, a genuine, I mean, I don't think if someone accidentally had a protein powder that was wrong and whatever, but if it was someone who got busted for EPL blood doping or something knowingly trying to cheat, I mean, rightly so, he'd be out of the sport. And I think that would be the case for most teams. So no one accepts that anymore. Whereas back in the day, I guess there was some sort of continuity amongst the processes and what was going on and what was required to succeed, to get the publicity, to get the sponsors in and the cost of all that. And so, and I think honestly in triathlon, it's, you know, certainly I've never ever felt at the highest level, you know, when you get to Kona, you know, that you You can't compete, you know what I mean?

1:39:53The level is like, wow, okay, I'm either good enough or I'm not, you know? And I think, so I think Ironman does quite a good job of controlling the athletes, particularly at the pinnacle, you know what I mean? You know, sometimes in other races, there's some crazy results, but often those guys never show up to Kona, you know, or, you know, and that's, so that's sort of, sort of fine. But I guess what I'm getting at is, it's the athletes that have, you know. You can impose. Self-policing, basically. It's a culture shift. Which is a culture shift, which is, I think is fantastic, you know. And that's better than just the testing getting better.

1:40:34Exactly, the test is trying to figure out how do we keep up because let's face it, I mean, I've obviously never had a issue and obviously touch wood, I never do. I wouldn't, as I said, I wouldn't know why or how, But I remember when I went to Liquigas and they asked me my blood type, I said, I'll have to call my mom. And they laughed, you know, because that was obviously just after the end of like a blood doping year, you know, puerto blown up and I didn't even know my blood type. Right, how would you not know that? If you were involved in that sort of thing. And so it's, yeah, I mean, so it's only the athletes that can really control it.

1:41:12And fortunately, as a collective, we've all decided to do it the right way. And I think that's very commendable. And is your sense that the passports are effective as a deterrent? Yeah, absolutely. Is it deterrent because there's definitely been guys that afford it and one and there's guys that have gone down. So, you know that if there's something off you could get done. So, that's for sure a deterrent. I mean, personally, I don't think, oh, this is a test for my passport. Oh, you know, because I wouldn't even know, you get tested often. So it's, you know, here, there and everywhere as far as where you test go, whether it's just a random or passport test, or I mean, every test is recorded, but there's certain ones that are for your passport and not.

1:41:57I mean, when I rock up to Kona, they actually test me twice for some reason, because they test me for the cycling passport, which is different to what, you know, triathlon have. So you're doubling up on your testing. Yeah, yeah, I got done twice. Probably every year. And the fact that you were an Olympic rower, like you've been getting tested for as long as any, you might be the most tested athlete. Oh, for sure. I'd say a hundred percent I am because coming from Tasmania too, there was I think seven Olympians that year and I was the youngest and the, like the Adam, so the whereabout system, which was quite broad at first, it was basically like, where do you live?

1:42:35Great, okay. And you put that in a system and they might find you. obviously in Tasmania, it was pretty easy for the lady to find me. She went to school with my mom and the whole, you know, she'd pop up and knew when I was home, she'd call mom and, oh, it's Cameron up too. Oh, okay, great. Yeah. Oh, well, I'll see you in a couple of weeks. And, but it was quite, but, but I was on there from the very beginning of that system, of that passport system when I was rowing and even still up until, I mean, obviously now I'm tested for both sports, but I never ever got taken off the rowing one. I mean, it's only been a few years since I actually had a rowing test as well.

1:43:11Like I was getting randomly tested. It was quite - This many years after that, the association. Yeah, well, I guess, cause I'm on the national federation. It's just rowings listed as a sport still, cause I never like officially retired or whatever from it. And so, yeah, technically they can still test me for that. But it's interesting now because you have this shift, with supplementation and different things. And I guess the biggest one that is like the big talking point now, I mean, okay, you've had painkillers, different things, but it's like ketones. And for a long time, we know they've been around a long time.

1:43:50We know they've been around for, I don't know, 10, 12 years or something. Guys have been experimenting off and on. I was first made aware of them. Nike presented some to me, the HVMN ones back in 2019. I couldn't even get a bottle down, you know, so vile and we got it. We kind of scrapped it and then, and also it was sort of like a bit taboo, you know, like no one really knew where the gray line and whatever was. And then now, but as we know, you know, in the last couple of years, it's become, well, in the Peloton, it's quite rife. I know Tim O'Donnell is a big proponent. He's been sponsored by Delta G.

1:44:28Yeah, another one of the big companies. and so there's been this sort of shift to now a couple of the teams have actually come out and said, okay, we're sponsored by X brand and I don't know. There's quite a number of different brands and which means that all of a sudden that has sort of passed the ethical point but for a long time that was like a top secret because no one really, it kind of gives you an idea of how you know, fragile everyone was on this whole anti-doping thing because you weren't cheating. They weren't illegal. They were verified, they were fine, but no one would talk about it.

1:45:06Interesting. Yeah, I thought that, was it Ineos? There was a team that was sort of, you know, testing and experimenting with this and using it in races. That was interesting because they said it was Ineos, but when I was sent them in 19, Tim said, listen, like we're not doing that. You know, we don't do that here. and that was like, okay, well, they taste horrible, so that's fine. But then, you know, the last couple of years, and to be honest, I wasn't presented with it from the team, but I became aware of certain groups within the team were on trial programs with it. And I've been racing and seen other teams pulling them out of their pocket.

1:45:46I mean, I remember seeing mid-race. I was riding on the front with Tim DeClercq from Quickstep and he pulled out one of the HVMM bottles. You know, I remembered it and cracked the top and hoofed it down. I was thinking, well, how'd you do that? But they believe it's quite a wonder drug. You know, I mean, it's got a bunch of different, you know, functions, cognitive and obviously ability to utilize your fuels and everything better. Yeah, I personally started using it while I've been here in this camp just to get my own understanding of it, you know, away from the team and away from to, to learn, to learn a bit about it.

1:46:23Like the, the HVM one, which is now a very different formula, which is much more palatable. And, and I guess I find that, yeah, you can, it almost does feel like I can see why everyone kept it a secret because you, you feel like you can train harder, you know, like you feel like you're on the limit, like, you know, and, but all of a sudden you can still do it, you know, whereas before you felt like you would blow up, you know, like you start that interval and you think, right, I don't know if I'll get through this one. And sure enough, it's too much. Whereas all of a sudden now you've still got that bit.

1:46:57And every day you get to your rest day and you're like, you know what? Like, I'm not that tired. Like, I mean, last week I, yeah, I had a long run. I was telling you about, you know, I've been communicating with Ken Rideout and I thought, you know what? I think I'll run a marathon today. So I - Ken has that. Yeah, it has that ability. So I go out and I run, I ran and I have a bit of a caveat. I grabbed the dog for the last three or four K to slow it right down so that I don't, you know, so I ran like two 48 pace for 38, 39 K grabbed the dog and jogged in at like six minute K pace. So we did a two 54.

1:47:31So just a nice cruisy little marathon. And normally that, you know, you'd feel pretty average. The next day got up for my easy day. You know, it was beautiful. Got on the gravel bike, like ended up going for a swim. So four and a half hours later I get home. And then the next day I was doing threshold efforts on the bike, you know? And to think that like you could, you know, train at that level. Like I couldn't fathom doing that even before Kona. It does feel like it's in this weird liminal space between what's okay and what might not be okay. Exactly. Yeah. That's my point with this. Exactly.

1:48:08With the ketones it's like, and we've had a number of years where people have been very unsure of it to the point where it's kept secret. Right. Like even though it's legal, no one will talk about it. Exactly. It's like almost like the world's best kept secret, you know, in sport. And it's amazing. But now, and I don't know if people are coming out about it because they're like, well, we're actually way ahead of the research now with it and we're comfortable to tell people about it so they can use it that way. But we're actually using it in this capacity. Well, it's only recently - It's the most widely talked about thing.

1:48:42Yeah, and it's something that only in the past year has become commercially available. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's been a big barrier to it. I mean, yeah, most of them are incredibly expensive. And I think that's like HVMN is different, is they're becoming, they're trying to make it so it is accessible to people with a different, you know, formula, I guess, that is cheaper to create. and time will tell how that goes. I mean, it's probably the only way it will become widespread is if it becomes affordable and accessible to people, you know, where they can buy it at the supermarket. And, you know, now you got to go and you got to probably get online.

1:49:21You got to actually maybe do some research because it has that stigma attached to it. But I mean, it's crazy. I mean, obviously, like with anything new, there's always like studies and everything and it seems to be able to benefit everything. um so anyway with sport you know all of a sudden we've transcended to a point where okay we've got stuff that we know is legal yet we don't know if we should say anything about it which is quite mind-boggling when you think back to how sport used to be so i think that's a positive you know right right right and hopefully not a signal of are we pushing again to like Are we going back into the darkness?

1:50:03Okay, ketones are fine, but what's the next? You know, like people thinking, okay, if that's helping that and you know, what can we keep pushing the boundary? And I know with our team, we felt like other teams have been at the forefront of these particularly ketones and research and use. And we've been apprehensive because of the stigma and sort of left behind for a period and obviously felt like we need to get on board. So yeah, the sport definitely took a big hit. Absolutely. And I think it's great that everyone is so conscious about, now we're conscious about stuff that's perfectly legal. Let's take a beat and really try to understand what this is before we just say yes.

1:50:54Yeah, I mean, collagen was another one. I mean, years ago, it was like, is that okay, is it not? You know, and all of a sudden now that's everywhere. Do you have to be real, I mean, obviously you do, you have to be super conscious of everything you put in your body. Do you have a supplement regimen or do you have to have to make sure everything's NSF and all of that so that you don't end up with a, you know, some kind of false positive tainted situation? Absolutely, I mean, I just make sure it's, I'm not sure what the, there's a little logo that I know to look for. Yeah, it's like a little circle NSF.

1:51:32Yeah, I think so, right. Yeah, and yeah, I mean, I, to be honest, this is something else I've, I've made my wife is holistic nutrition, so she's big on food, you know, and that being everything. And up until recently, that's been the big focus for us, you know, is trying to give me everything through that. But yeah, we've done some research now and like, yeah, for example, collagen, you know, for the joints, especially I am 39. So I am getting older. Not that I feel, I mean, I'm doing more than I've ever done, but I need to stay on top of it. So yeah, that's something that I've implemented vitamin C just purely for, you know, immunity.

1:52:11I just don't want to get sick. And I don't know if it's a placebo, but I find whenever I'm religious with just a couple of vitamins a day, I'm able to stay, you know, healthy. obviously now the ketones and that seems to be, you know, having some benefit. And then, yeah, I mean, one of my, one of my, the companies I'm involved with, Momentus, they have a sleep, which sleep pack, which we traveling a huge amount, you know, I mean, going against your psychotic rhythm and everything else, like trying to manage that process is really important. I think in the sport, all the time changes, but also to get the most out of your performance.

1:52:54But I've also found that because of its effectiveness with that, and I felt I've been able to travel better this, you know, the last sort of few months that I've been using it, when I have a hard day and I want to make sure I get a good night's sleep, I have that too. But, you know, I wake up and, you know, it's all natural. And that's the great thing about Momentus, everything's all natural, etc. So even in our household, my wife, who was, you know, very much against, you know, numbers and the chemical, all this sort of stuff, we've started to devise a bit of a protocol of different things because there's enough science out there that suggests that it's potentially good for you to get the most out of yourself.

1:53:33Yeah, the Momentus Sleep Pack, I think it's called Sleep Elite, I think is what it's called. Like I use that and they're a supporter of the show and I know Jeff and all of that, like we're stoked to be working with them and I really love their products. So I use that as well, but there's also like the Huberman protocol, which is like the L-theanine and all. Like, so I'll take that occasionally, but then I get crazy dreams. I don't know if that happens to you, like it starts to weird me out. Yeah, no, I used to back in the old days when we had like Tamazepan and Stilnox and crazy things like that with like the cycling team.

1:54:08But even that stuff is not out there anymore. You know, it's melatonin is about as extensive as it gets from the team. And then of course, yeah, you're basically like protein. I mean, for me, like that's a big one, like that really, you know, especially I generally actually have it between a session, you know, I don't have it at the end of the day. Cause generally whenever I finished one thing, I've still got something else and I'll be in the morning, I'll brew up, I've got an American type coffee maker at home and I make a big pot and I have a, you know, a couple or two before I head out for training.

1:54:41And then if I've got to run or swim or something in the afternoon, you know, I get home, I throw the frozen banana, I throw the protein or the recovery powder in there. Nice, good scoop of very healthy Nutella, natural, of course. And as the base, some ice, I'll use the coffee. And if it's later in the day, I might use almond milk or rice milk or something else, but it's like a protein bomb, I call it. And so I'm getting my, I'm starting the recovery process from the session I did before, but I still actually got another one to go, but I'm getting a boost from the recovery and the stimulant. And I know like we started this podcast at like five o 'clock and you drank an espresso, which is a bold move.

1:55:22Yeah, yeah, no, well. But you probably already, what did you already do today? So you went out and rode with G all day today, right? Yeah, we did four and a half hours. I did a couple of, as I said, a couple of sort of zone three efforts, which zone three is around that 150 to 160 sort of heart rate. So, as I said to G, I said, it's sort of like, it's not hard, but it's not easy. You know, it's in that middle zone. It's sort of like annoying because you're kind of holding back, but not too much, you know, it's actually a bit easier to go a bit harder. So yeah, I ended up doing a couple of 20 minutes is around 410 Watts and then shot home, put on the running shoes and did a couple of two and a half K around three, 23, 30 pace, you know, a bit of, you know, cruisy jogging in between that ran bit over 15 K in an hour, 15 and a half K.

1:56:11So yeah, that was sort of a typical situation. Yeah, it was about five and a half hours in total. So how does that work with Garrett? Like does that fuck with his head? Because this is a guy who's won the tour to France and you're the guy who's training with him, but you're doing more by going out after the training session that you do with him and then going to swim or run. So this is something we didn't get to, but Tim Kerrison, this is, I think he's a mastermind because that kind of happened at first and in 18. And then after the first week, and obviously Froomey figured it out pretty quick, you know, in 17 when we were together.

1:56:48So what happens is they just do more. So G, you know, when we came out here in 18, which is the first time we really trained just one-on-one, after about a week, I said, oh, mate, you know, I'm just running a bit late this morning. And, oh, but I, you know, and he's, so anyway, when we got there, he's, oh, everything okay. I was like, yeah, no, I'm fine. I just had swimming. And he just didn't, he's like, you what? So all of a sudden the next day, you know, he was up, you know, an hour and a half, two hours earlier. And yeah, this will not stand. This is not gonna stand. And then every time I said, okay, yeah, I'm finished now.

1:57:23He's like, yeah, I'm gonna just go up here. So even today, you know, we got to, we got to sunset. He said, yeah, I'm actually gonna go up behind the Palisades to that one way climbing back. But I'd already said, I'm going home to get my shoes on. So I couldn't do the extra with him. plus the run. So, and there's definitely been, you know, Tim Kerris that I think has been a bit of a mastermind and all the guys are trained with, you know, now the younger guys, Tom Pidcock, Magnus Sheffield, et cetera. They all, you know, okay, well I might like, you know, Tom, for example, you know, he in Andorra, we get, you know, the main town and then it sort of splits is up the French Valley and up the Spanish Valley.

1:58:01And I live on the Spanish sort of Valley side and that's where the pool is. And so to then get over to the French side, you either will keep going up there or you have to climb a big mountain pass, like climbing up and over Latigo, for example, good thousand meters, what's that? Three and a half thousand foot climb. So Tom will say, I'll just come past the pool with you. Cause then he's actually got to go past the pool and then all the way up and over the climb before he gets home. So it's, yeah, I think it's good for them. Yeah, who's gonna get the last word in basically. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

1:58:40And yeah, as long as we're all performing, that's the main thing. I love that you guys are like cruising around LA. Like I think it's, this is a drum that I'm always beating, but I just think it's the most underrated place to train. I mean, maybe it's not Andorra, but when you look at triathletes and how many people are in Boulder, and I was joking with Timothy O'Donnell, like you guys are all in your garages and in your basements, like on treadmills and it was like 84 degrees here today. Boiling today. Yeah. Incredible. For me, I said to the guys and Froomey's obviously come out, you know, a couple of years.

1:59:14COVID here, he was here with me. And like, and whole teams will, Columbia, like just down the way here, like the hotel would just get, you know, teams from the tour will come out and spend a month or a couple of weeks. I say to the guy, I mean, it's the wow factor here. You know what I mean? And people don't, I mean, and that was the big reason why Tim was pushing another part with me with G because I'd lived here, I knew my way around. So from day one, he was able to, we were able to go and train. If you don't know the place, yeah, you'd get to LA and go, where do I go? Right, you wouldn't know.

1:59:50Like it's not obvious that it's a good place to try. No, but once you get out there, like today, you know, just up on Saddle Peak, there's four different sides. We went up every single side and I think we saw about three cars. And one of them was the guy following us, Marco. So it's just, you know, it's, it's impossible to explain it with the, one of the most densely populated cities in the world that you can see, you know, and then at the moment after the rain and the wind, you know, you can see all that to the cattle in, like you almost feel like you can see Hawaii. I mean, you just see, it's just, it's just the wow factor is nuts, but the quality of the, of the climbing and the training is, I mean, obviously, you know, to bring him up, but Lance.

2:00:30I mean, he was the only one I know of that spent time here training in the summer. But I think that's because he was dating Sheryl Crow. It was. Yeah, he had reasons to be out here. But still, he was obviously really smart. He knew where to go. And the weather, you get up in the morning, you never have to question, can you do this? Okay, we've had like two days of rain and it was Armageddon, but you'd never have to question Like, and that is the hardest thing for me here is a rest day, because again, you feel like you should be doing something, you know, the last thing in the world you feel like you should be doing is resting and doing nothing, but then that's great being here.

2:01:07You can go to Disneyland or go see a game or go to, go to something else. But yeah, I mean, yesterday, for example, I just was in the Hollywood Hills up and down all day, you know, I mean, I did a hundred, well, about 70 and I didn't leave suburbia. Right. And just going up and down from Mulholland. Yeah. Doing various, the roads that go up there. Yeah, up in Sunset Plaza, Strudella, Outpost down the end, Nichols Canyon. I mean, there's actually hundreds of them in there. A little like Loma Vista, like all these hidden little brick walls, but last 10, 15 minutes, like proper climbs, but at 20%.

2:01:45Right, some good pitch. I mean, so they're not gonna be as long or as steep as you're gonna get in Europe or in Boulder and you don't have that altitude and all of that, but the trade-off is year round climate. Exactly, and especially this time of the year and for G and also for me, I mean, things have worked out pretty well since we've do the foundation work here. You know, like you just, I think you just get a real leg up by just being able to log those days after days. I mean, that's the key to anything is consistency. How come more don't live out here, you think? Yeah, to be honest, I got no idea.

2:02:23I mean, I think it's just a stigma attached with the place. Like it just isn't for that. And so I guess with regard to professional cycling though, we're in Europe, we have to be and most guys are European based. But it's funny you say it because there's actually a couple of guys in the world to it now that are actually from here. Sean Quinn with EF and Kevin Vermack, He's from down in Long Beach. So not quite, but Sean Quinn, I mean, he grew up on up in the Hollywood Hills on Mulholland. Oh, wow. Yeah, so he knows all those roads like the back of his hand. And so they're young, they're only just going to the world tour.

2:03:01They're both very good. And it could be, they could be the catalyst for, other particularly Americans, setting up a base here and using it as when they're not in Europe. But yeah, and then triathletes, same sort of thing. I don't know, it just doesn't have the culture. I mean, Chris McCormick was here for a while, but that's really all I know of. Well, he would come, so like 10, 12 years ago, he would come out and he would stay in Hidden Hills, some family there, maybe you know the same people. Yeah, like they opened up their home and he would stay there. And then Terenzo also, Bozzoni would come out and I would swim with those guys every day and train with them.

2:03:43Oh, wow. Like we would swim at the Calabasas swimming. That's like my local pool, the Calabasas swimming kind of center. And I would work out with those guys and they were the only ones. Yeah. And we would have the same conversation. Yeah. But I think if the one thing that's missing is a 50 meter outdoor pool, like if out here in Agora or whatever, if they put something like that in, it would attract, you know, a lot. Yeah, I mean, there's one obviously out of Pasadena. I mean, I love that pool, but like that's so far to drive from the Santa Monica mountains. And the college out here, they got it set up in yards a lot of the time.

2:04:17And yeah, yeah, I don't, I really don't know. I mean, cause to me, this place is just, I mean, it's just so stimulating and endurance sport is, I won't say hard cause I love it, but it is, you know what I mean? There's, there's times when it's like, especially in Andorra, it's cold in the morning, it's dark, you know, and it's tough to get dressed and roll out the door. I mean, once you get out there, it's like fresh mountain air and altitude and all the guys around, this is like during winter, obviously summer, it's beautiful, but here... Yeah, you just can't wait to get out. Where am I gonna go?

2:04:53You know, it's like not a case of all I have to go this. it's like, it's hard to choose, you know, the options are that endless of everywhere where you want to be, that it's actually difficult to choose where to go. Like running, like my marathon the other day, hardest thing was trying to figure out which part I'm gonna add first and when am I gonna go down to the beach and do the Rocky run part and up to Muscle Beach and then up around Brentwood and, you know, like trying to just, oh, it's just great. I love it. I love that you love it. I do wanna ask you what you've learned, like how does what you know or what you learned as a rower contribute to your cycling and your triathlon and vice versa?

2:05:35Like how does your expertise in all of these various disciplines inform like how you train and race? There has to be some alchemy between all of those sports that make you kind of a more informed experienced athlete. Yeah, well definitely in rowing, learning how to get the most out of a team because it's even more extreme than cycling, because if you go off on your own tangent, the boat won't go anywhere. And one thing I was very good at in rowing, I may never have been the best guy. I was very good at rowing with other people. We do a thing called speed order trials where you, seat racing, where they just change one guy.

2:06:11So it might be a double or a four and they'll put two together and put another, pull him out and put him with him and you get a ranking. And I would always win that. And it's because I didn't have an ego, I could feel what the other guy was doing, adapt to that. A lot of guys would get in, just do their thing. And that was fine if they were with me because I could adapt. But when they get in with someone else that they're meant to be great with, that completely sucks. So in cycling, being able to identify when guys are on the edge or when you need to give someone a bit of a pep me up or a bit of self-belief or whatever else, because as I said, everyone's quite capable.

2:06:49So I think that part of rowing, you know, has been a great thing to learn. And then I guess as far as how it's helped me in Ironman, you know, I think just that ability to do those big days in training. You know, like I said, I learned that from rowing. I used to, but not only did I do the six hours, I did it in three different things. Like I said to you, I'd go rowing, I'd go to the gym, I'd go for a ride or I might go for a run. so I've been doing that forever it's not like I just started it you know I mean you the things that I believe the things I draw on now are things I did as like a 17 16 17 18 year old kid you know the foundation was was set and I've just been able to draw into that you know with anything that I've done over that over that period of time so I'd say in rowing okay you've got the natural things, pushing yourself, hurting yourself, trying to training hard, the discipline, with rowing you have no choice, but to turn up to training because otherwise the boat doesn't go on the water.

2:07:55There's other guys there that can't train if you don't show up. Punctuality, like we say, we're gonna be together at this time, that's where we are. And I'm always, there's guys that are like, oh yeah, I'm 10 minutes late on, and I'm like, and I get a bit edgy about that. I mean, not enough, but I, you know, you calm down, you say something to them, but to me that's not acceptable because in rowing you can't get on the water whereas in cycling obviously like whatever, you know, have another coffee and wait, you know. So that's, you know, the discipline side of it is great to learn and not to let anyone down and I guess another, I was speaking to someone recently about, you know, in rowing every race is a big race and important, you know, like you don't race a lot, you train a lot and then you get your national championships, you get your selection trials.

2:08:46We got to make the national team. You go to the world cups and the world champs, like they're all big in cycling. You have your risk all the time. Yeah. And you gotta be out. And a lot of the time, like that to the next week UAE, for example, you know, three or four of the days of sprint days and we're sort of there with a GC team for the climb. So it's like, okay, that's just not crash, save some energy because tomorrow we've got to freaking absolutely feed it to it. You know, there's a team time trial or whatever. So getting that around your head that it's not that way was actually a challenge for me and I used to crash a lot, I guess, because every day I was desperate.

2:09:23But in triathlon, it's wonderful that I learned that skill because every time I raised a triathlon, it's important. I wanna win, I'm there to perform. And so I've got the experience of that from rowing, like everyone matters. and that's, I never go to a race. I never want people to come and watch and go, God, Cameron didn't even try or this. Like I want everyone to go, wow, that was great to watch him no matter what the result. You know? Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, I think what I take from your example or kind of what inspires me about your path is that it's really about the enthusiasm that you have.

2:10:13Like you're in love with what you do, right? Like it's so clear, like you're just, you're so excited. Like you're not like, oh, I gotta get up and do that. Like you're looking forward to whatever punishment you're gonna dole out on yourself tomorrow, right? Like you can't wait. I can't. And that's cool because you've been doing it for so long. And as somebody who's been at the highest level of sports since like what 2004 or something like that. Like the fact that you still love it. Well, I was world champion in 2003. Okay, we'll add a year to that. I won was my first world. Okay, well, we'll throw a couple more years on there.

2:10:4622, yeah. But all right, so even more impressive then, you know, I don't wanna shortchange you. No. And you're still getting better and you're still improving. But I think that's a function of how much you're enjoying yourself, which I think gets lost, you know, And probably I think a lot of professional athletes after they've been in it for a while, they just, it's easy to get cynical or to kind of lose what got you excited about being in the sport to begin with. And somehow you've been able to hold onto that. Yeah, but I, as back to what we said before, I surround, I've been very fortunate with the people I'm surrounded with.

2:11:24They don't really allow me to, and they don't really allow me to think in any other way. You know what I mean? Tim Kerrison is never like, oh God, we're starting to fall off here. We need to do this to try and keep you up there. We need to keep you in the game. It's all, okay, we've got to get this swim block in. We've really got to figure this out. Okay. You've been making excuses for however long, right. We finally got this 50 meter pool. That's go, you know, that's go and do these big miles because that's all you got to do. It's really simple. And, and Brett Kirby at Nike, you know, the fascinating thing last year, they said, listen, you know, we got an idea.

2:11:57How, what do you think about LA Olympics? And I was like, yeah, what do I think? I think it's fantastic. It's 2028. He said, yeah, you'd be 44. How about you try and go back to rowing? I was going to get to this. I was going to get to this, but go ahead. Yeah. And I, and I said, far out. Okay. Yeah. I hadn't really thought of that, but he, they're like, wow, it'd be great to like bookend your career with, you know, with that sport. And it's such a vast, you know, gap in between. And I said, okay, well, I'll be 44. Now, another thing is Tom Brady and I are both born on the 3rd of August. Obviously, he's older than me, but we're born on the 3rd of August.

2:12:32So since he started all this longevity stuff, I've always had like 45 as that, you know, this number. And so Nike did a bit of research and, you know, it seems that physiologically, as long as you look after yourself, you haven't had injuries, et cetera, you shouldn't really decline until then. You know, I mean, there's a lot of evidence, particularly like your VO2, for example, is the first thing to get hit and it won't really go until then. So the first thing that could potentially be affected to be swimming and running, which are the two things that I could still improve the most in because I just simply haven't done them for that long.

2:13:07And then cycling actually comes even later. And they said the reason most guys get to mid thirties, early thirties and think it's time to stop is they've been doing that for 20 years. Like you change your mind, like you change your underpants about sports. So, you know, you never give yourself a chance to have got complacent or, you know, I mean, even look at you now, you got into Ironman. Now, all of a sudden, you wanted to throw cycling back in there. And you're constantly trying to figure out how to be better, how to figure it out. And so, you know, if we threw rowing at you, it would only do the same thing.

2:13:39You'd be like, right, I'm back in the boat. Okay, how can all these years of every other sport apply to making that happen? and it sounds like coastal rowing will be part of the Olympics and they call that old man's rowing. Right, this is like, again, on that like Forrest Gump thing, like everything's just showing up with perfect timing. Like, yeah, that's the sport, like cause all the young gunners are not gonna go for that. They wanna be in the skulls, right? So it opens it up for you. You'd think the first Olympics, if there's a shot, you know, breaking, I mean, G and I talked about this because we've always joked about, he's always joked about wanting to do Ironman.

2:14:18And it was, he wanted to do it competitively, but then he's seen what's happened in the sport. And, you know, he said, I said, mate, look, if I'm honest with you, if you'd done it when I started, that was, I guess, kind of low hanging fruit. You know, I came in and was able to kind of change things and all that really, you know, everything, when I learned to run, there was a lot of great cyclists before, but no one could run. But when I learned to run, they all learned to ride, you know, and still run as quick to stay ahead of me, you know? and the low hanging fruit is kind of gone from the sport now, you know, you got these with all due respect, but you know, I was able to make my way in at a time when there was an opportunity to do that.

2:14:55And so, and so now G is more like, yeah, you know, I'm just going to enjoy when I stopped cycling, I'm going to do Ironman Wales, maybe qualify for Kono, maybe be an age group, you know, do as well as I can. And, and who knows from there, but, and I guess that's the same thing with coastal rowing, you know, it'll be the first Olympics that will be in. So we'll see, it might not be as competitive, but at the end of the game - And it's longer, right? Like what is the distance? Yeah, like five, six K. So it's like 25 to 30 minutes, depending on the weather. And yeah, on the conditions. And obviously with now having some open water swimming understanding and with the rowing, I've got access to obviously the America's cup cruise.

2:15:36I could go and maybe spend some time with them to learn a bit about currents and water and wind and different things that I never thought of before. I guess I potentially do have the resources around me to give that a nudge. That's insane because I didn't even think of the whole Ineos thing and how they can, come to your aid with all of that. Like that's insane. I could build a boat. I mean, you have to do that. Like it would just be absolutely fucking legendary.

2:16:07Hey, I mean, I won't rule it out. I mean, you would be - I definitely won't rule it out. I mean, it would just be indisputed, like legendary status. Yeah, and being here in LA, that's gonna be. And I think once we get through Paris next year and I'm not really, look, I mean, I haven't given up on obviously with my role in the team, there's always a role on the Australian team. And we've discussed it in the past few years, even leading up to Tokyo, I was in the sort of the group, but I was a few guys away from getting picked and even bit the worlds each year, like, you know, since what I did last year, particularly in Roubaix, I guess that kind of reminded everyone, you know, that I can play that role and at the highest level and, and, and also maybe I could help bring the team together a bit, you know, like obviously national teams that can be quite fragmented with different trade teams and they all come together.

2:17:00So who knows? So, you know, you never know what might happen with Paris, but it's definitely not like an objective. My, my goal in the next two years is to be the best teammate I can be, you know, with the guys this year. And I mean, I take that year by year, whether I'm going to race again. Um, as I said, I came very close to being happy not to do it this year, but the team sort of encouraged me to keep going and I'm happy I made that call. I really want to win in Nice. You know, obviously it's at the end of the day, it is a world championship and it's an opportunity to win. And he, you know, if I can pull that off, obviously I want to confirm it in Kona and, and then we'll see, you know?

2:17:36I can't see myself beating Ironman. I think even if I did coastal rowing, I'd probably wanna do both, but they probably compliment each other exceptionally well. So yeah, we'll see. And then longer term, I mean like the multi-sport ultra world, you would just absolutely dominate that. Well, I - If you turned your sights on that. After that, the part with Colin, and I started following, I think actually ultra, the world championship in Kona was on around that time. You're talking about Ultraman? Yeah. I was there, I crewed an athlete at that race. Okay. Yeah, this past year. I did take note of that.

2:18:19And you would crush that, you would absolutely crush that race. Well, yeah, I kind of feel that and what they're doing is incredible, but I kind of feel like, like someone, Tim O'Donnell or - Yeah, somebody legit has to step up and tackle that thing. Yeah, or Ben Hoffman and they're gonna blow it out. I know. They're gonna do something a bit like what's happened in Ironman. I mean, it's not - It's inevitable. It's not critical to the guys doing it. They're amazing. I mean, they're at the best in the sport, but there's gonna be something that'll push them, like has happened in Ironman. And it's sort of been a natural evolution to getting bigger and bigger.

2:18:58And all of a sudden now Ironman is, like you say, it's like a race. We're sprinting almost. So what's gonna challenge us next? Okay, doing it twice. Right, I know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's starting to change this year, Leanda Cave and DeeDee Griesbauer and DeeDee like was amazing. But I think she's 52, you know? So, and still like, I mean, it was, her performance was unreal. But to get somebody more in their prime, to step in and do that. I think it's only a matter of time. It definitely, yeah, I like to look at that as well. Yeah, you should. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not headed back to the real estate fund anytime soon.

2:19:42No, as I said, that's gonna be more. Ethan, we love you, but I think that seat might be fallow for a little bit longer. He knows that and he'll be a big supporter. Like he said to me, your role in this whole fund is walkabout. If you can take us on your walkabout, you know, one thing that I've been, you know, I've always, you know, I've not to pat myself on the back, but I tend to always put everyone else first, you know, even, and that's great. Like I said, in rowing, like I always wanna be the bottom guy in the team. I always wanna make everyone else better. I'm always happy for everyone else when they win.

2:20:17That doesn't always work out best for you. Right. In the sports that I've done. But the fact that you're so committed to Kona tells me that Yes, and you also desire, yeah, it's like you want your moment. And in that one though, it doesn't really affect everyone else. It's like, it's just me, but obviously with the team, even with Ryan. And so I guess finance has always drawn me in because I think, well, here's an industry where you can, want what's best for everyone else. You wanna help them make money. And then that's also gonna benefit you quite handsomely. So, it's definitely something that I think will fit nicely.

2:20:58As I said, and the fact that everything I've done, I've always wanted to be around the best people or found myself around the best people and wanted to succeed. I mean, until I take my last breath, I hope I maintain that attitude with everything I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we got to wrap this up here, but before we do that, I think it would be helpful to just leave the listener or the viewer with a few thoughts on helping them with their own kind of fitness endurance journey. I mean, I think it's easy to hear your story and find it inaccessible, but you're racing, when you do these Ironmans, you're with all the amateurs, you're seeing what everybody's doing, what they're doing right, what they're doing wrong.

2:21:44So for the aspiring triathlete or endurance athlete, or somebody who's training for their first marathon, like based upon your experience and kind of what you see other people doing, like what are some things to focus on and things to maybe not focus on or common mistakes that you see? Yeah, it's funny because a friend of mine, I ride with him out here, Stuart Walton and his wife, Kelly, they're actually training for a half Ironman. It's like, and they've never done one. And we've had a lot of these conversations lately. and I always say the same thing to people, focus on the swim. And I seem very hypocritical because I'm not the best at it myself and I don't seem to apply the time to it that I should.

2:22:27But if you don't get out of that swim well, the rest of the day is a really long, long day. So if you're a great swimmer, okay, then you can move to the bike. And then once you can get through the bike, then you can start thinking about the run. but to me like the biggest thing is and I think people neglect it, you know, like I'm not a good swimmer. It's like, well, honestly, the more time you spend and you just work on that so you can just get through that comfortably, you're going to mean that you can actually utilize the things you are strong at, you know, much, much better throughout the rest of the race.

2:23:01So that's always my biggest piece of advice. And then another thing, you know, we discussed was, you know, he was talking to me about the, you know, the boots and the gun, you know, all these sort of stuff. And I mean, honestly, like, especially if you're, that stuff takes time. I mean, I know the Norwegians talked about it really well, like about massage and, but it's so true. You know, I mean, all that stuff takes time. It can often take time away from things that you'd prefer to be doing. And does it really help that much? That let probably not, you know, and not to crap can on any of that stuff, but.

2:23:38Especially when you're time crunching, and you have a life, like you're not living, the life that Gustav and Christian have. And even you don't have the time they have, like you have a wife and a child. Exactly, yeah. When I heard them, I was like, wow, I remember being at the Institute. Yeah, I don't say I miss those days. I love what I've got now, but yeah, I could just picture them. Yeah, I can see it, but don't, and people feeling bad that I haven't done my boots or my ball or whatever it is, you know, like make sure you have a good meal, you know, eat well, you know, I mean, take an extra time to do that or, or just, you know, if you're watching TV, just have a stretch or, you know, whatever, like work those little bits of extra pieces in, you know, around, you know, just making sure you've, you, the rest of your life's going along well, because if you let all those little bits and pieces get on top of you, you know, that'll get on top of your training and the rest of the life and to make it, you know, very difficult.

2:24:36So I'd say, you know, really simplify things. But, but then I just go back to what you asked me about what separates, you know, okay. Soon Yang was a controversial example, but you know, for me, G, et cetera, Christian, you know, the guys it's, you know, okay. I'm not saying go out and run a marathon, but maybe at least spend three hours on your feet, walking and jogging or something, you know, before you have a crack at an Ironman one day and, and, and run and ride, definitely try and ride 180 kilometers, you know, like just to say you can see how it feels and obviously swim the distance, like just go through the motions.

2:25:12You'd be amazed how much confidence that will give you knowing that you've done it other than getting there on the start line. You know, I mean, there'll be times when it's just not possible because of your lifestyle and you do what you can, but you know, if you can make the time just for that, even if it's just one, you know, and I'm not saying do it all in one day, I'm saying, you know, one weekend, okay, I'm going to do race distance. Okay. Next weekend, I'm going to ride the race distance. The next weekend I'm going to hike for three hours, you know, just, just like practice what you got to deal with, you know?

2:25:42And, uh, I know that's all sounds simple, but unless you get the foundations of it all right, like the training, the, you know, the, the, the intervals, the power meters, the heart rate, all that stuff, it's, it's really largely irrelevant, you know what I mean? And And even then once you get to our level, a lot of the time it's irrelevant. You just trying to, you got to go that speed and you got to figure out how to do it. But yeah, I mean, swimming is a big one and finding a great group. I mean, everyone says it, but finding a squad is crucial. I mean, I swim a lot on my own, but that's more because of time and when I have to fit training in, but when it works to swim in the group, I mean, it's by far the best way and especially if you're learning and it just keeps you accountable.

2:26:29And cause you can waste a lot of time if you don't have a structure when you're trying to manage three different sports. So that accountability helps a huge amount. So yeah, just those basics. I hope that helps. Yeah, no, I think that's great advice. I mean, I think the only, yeah, the corollary that I would add to that is simply making it sustainable and trying to make sure that you're enjoying it, right? Because otherwise like, what the fuck are you doing? Like it should be fun and not like overly, it should be hard, but not burdensome and not approached in a way that's gonna capsize the other things in your life that are important to you.

2:27:07And on the topic of swimming, I think what I see is, I mean, the broader issue is we all like to train our strengths and we don't really wanna deal with the stuff we're not good at, so we kind of avoid it. In triathlon, that's often swimming because people didn't grow up swimming. They're just, they're not that good at it. They're intimidated, whatever. And so they either avoid it. And then when they go to do it, they're so intent on getting their fitness in that they won't take the time to learn and understand techniques. So I've seen so many triathletes in the pool, like they gotta get their Ks in, they have their workout, but their form is terrible.

2:27:46And I'm like, you should just stop completely and like start over and invest in really understanding how to improve your technique because you're just, you're literally, you can get as fit as you want. You're still just wasting all this energy and you're not moving forward, you know? But because they're time crunch, you're like, I can't afford that time or that investment, but that would pay a massive dividend. Yes. Oh, yeah. Swimming is the one sport that you can, by having the two gung ho approach, it can really backfire on you. I mean, there's obviously some examples in our sport of guys, you know, they've been getting better at swimming for 10 years and they train 30, 40.

2:28:26I mean, at least when I don't swim well, it's cause I haven't swum. Yeah. But shame on you for being Australian and not having swimming be your strongest. Exactly. Of the three, how dare you? In triathlon, I mean, it's always, that's the starting point, you know, get that right. And like you say, just learn how to float, you know, learn how to comfortably get through that swimming. And from there on you're, yeah. Worry about the rest. Right on. Yeah. All right, man, well, we gotta pull the plug on this thing. And you gotta get to the UAE. Yeah, yeah. You're flying tomorrow? No, no, next week. Oh, next week.

2:29:03Oh, so you're around still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, cheers, man. Thanks, dude, that was super fun. Honored to be on you. Appreciate it. So, if people wanna follow you in the upcoming season, where's the best place to find you on Instagram? Yeah, that's all I've got actually. I don't have anything else. So, yeah, I'm pretty, I mean, I'm okay at social media. I have a decent following, I guess. So yeah, follow the team and follow me and yeah. There you go. So it's at, what is the account at Cam Wurf? I think it's CJ Wurf. Oh yeah, it is, right. I'll link it up in the show notes and all that good stuff.

2:29:34I appreciate that. Cool, man, this was super fun. Yeah. You're welcome back. And if you ever wanna ride really slow when you're here. Hey, we're gonna go for that swim. Happy to do it anytime, man. Let's do it. Yeah. Cool. Cheers. Cheers.

2:29:57That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

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2:31:54Thank you.