Filmmaker Max Joseph on Failure, Happiness, & Finding Your Creative Voice

29:19And I've met him and he, it was a really special meeting him and talking to him about films and stuff. And he's very, he very much is in the spirit of like, if that interests you, go and do it. Like, don't think twice and shoot it yourself. Like shoot it on an iPhone. He's so fearless in terms of just like adapting and grasping a new technology or a gap in the, exploiting any kind of technological gap in the system and subverting. So, but yes, so I kind of came up wanting to be this traditional filmmaker, but traditional in the kind of sense, in the 90s sense of art house filmmaking, which is now very much not, doesn't exist.

30:14To a small degree, it does. Like you said, A24 and those things. But, and I actually did achieve my goal. Yeah. I got there. Yeah. And I did it. This was not based on a book. I co-wrote this movie. We are your friends. Yeah.

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34:00So let's get into it. Cause I love this story. I remember when this movie came out, I was like, wow, he made a feature with Zac Efron. and who else is it, Emily Ratajkowski? Emily Ratajkowski, yeah. I mean, this was a big movie and this was all set up to be your launch pad and your moment. And it wasn't like you were a hired gun, like you, this was the movie you wanted to make, like didn't you raise the money? Like there was a lot that went into this and it was set up at New Line, right? So some of that is correct. And some of that, I mean, I like the myth of some of that, But if I'm being totally honest, it wasn't fully my idea.

34:42I basically, I was a web filmmaker. I was making content for a company called Good Magazine that my friend started, Ben Goldfish. Who's part of the happiness. And he's in the happiness thing. And off of that, I just got cut my teeth on making a lot of content like web stuff, which was this really exciting world of like, oh my God, like YouTube, like what works here? And it's like, oh, information can be made to be exciting. Like that can go viral, educating people, bringing this kind of these other interests I had in like geopolitics and social issues. Like there's a place to make stuff here that can be really impactful.

35:26And man, was it powerful. Like the first couple of videos I made for good, one of them went to Sundance, which I didn't even think it would because I didn't even consider it a short film. I didn't even submit it to Sundance and it got in. So that was like, oh shit, like this can be considered a short film now. This is web content, which was even weird to say. It's like, what is this? I guess it's content, whatever that word meant at that time. And then the second thing I made for good went bananas viral. And that was like my first taste of like that drug. It was called internet porn. And it was the facts around the industry of internet porn.

36:12And we got a porn star and we wrote the facts on her body and we had her undress. And every time she undressed a piece of clothing, it revealed another fact. And it was this cheeky kind of like mischievous, playful, video and it was the first thing I actually filmed out of college after like I got in, I came to LA and it was like, I was really nervous. I'm kind of like a computer guy. Like I'm very comfortable behind a computer and like less comfortable in a film shoot situation, certainly then. And here was this porn star and she came to my house. We shot it in my like West Hollywood apartment.

37:02I had a makeup person. I had a DP who was just a friend of mine that went to USC. And like, we were all really nervous because like, here's a porn star. And she's like just smoking a joint on my terrace. And like, then it's like time to like film her on my bed. Like with all these facts and like the DP was like really, my friend was like really like kind of. Like what is happening here? Yeah, he was like afraid. I was like, dude, go like get on the bed, like get the camera has to like travel up. Like, and he was like a little timid. So I kind of took the camera and I shot a lot of it myself and we put it online.

37:45And in the first two days, I got 5 million views. And I was like checking my phone every second. Like I would just refresh and it would just jump up like a hundred thousand or something. And that was like, welcome to the drug. I didn't know that that could exist. I didn't know, I had no precedence for that feeling and it was crazy. And then it was like, well, wow, what a wave. Let's ride this thing. Like let's make other, like what else can we do? And so I was doing that for a while and Good Magazine's mission was to kind of like educate and make a social impact. So there's always kind of like a positive social aspect to everything we were doing versus like, let's say collegehumor.com or like, you know, anything that was, or vice guide, which kind of could be more nihilistic or snarky and that stuff.

38:46So we kind of like had to be good. All of this to say that I had been working in the web, in kind of web one, YouTube videos 1.0 for like a good five or so years, six years. I've done my, you know, I'm starting to do my 10 ,000 hours and basically making web content, even though I still see it as like a. You still, there's this sensibility that you're slumming it, right? Like it doesn't matter how, you may get 10 million views, whatever, but still this is not, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson would never do this. No. Right? So what am I actually doing here? And that has that then, and perhaps even maybe this is shifting with the happiness series, but maybe not.

39:35Like has that sensibility changed? Are you still hang, is there still a residue of that that's preventing you from doing what I know Casey has urged you to do for a long time, which is to fucking let it go and just go full into the digital space and just own it, right? Like he learned his lesson early, like he worked with the Safdies, he went to Cannes, and then he was like, this is not what I want. And he went full in a long time ago, but you still have one foot in each world. But anyway, we're interrupting the story, but this is like - Did you talk to Casey before this? I did, yeah, I did, I did.

40:12I've like walked into a trap. But all of these things, you know, I was like, this is my like sense of this. And he's like, look, I'm not gonna share anything that I wouldn't tell Max to his face or I haven't said to him. So I was like, I'm not asking you to betray any confidences, but am I on the right wavelength with this? And yeah, so. I think probably every time Casey and I get together, this is a good 60%, 70 % of what we're talking about is like this same issue. And what are you holding on to? Not just me, but like what these two worlds and how different they are. And Casey's played a little bit in, you know, the traditional filmmaking world too.

41:00But right, so let me keep on going with the story because I think we'll get there. Okay. So you're the storyteller, tell the story, dude. But you can see how scattered, but my story - You might need an edit, you know. My storytelling is just as scattered as my - So this is the, yeah, this is the rough assembly. Yeah. This is right. Keep going. So I've gotten good at creating web videos. They're not about me. They're about other things. I'm bringing kind of my proper filmmaking education to making these web videos about any cool thing, but it's like progressive and social and it's about kind of bettering the world.

41:45This is still in the Obama idealist. Like I'm working at Good Magazine, Barack Obama has just been elected president. There's a lot of optimism and idealism and hope. And all of these things we're making are kind of serving that. And I kind of get into that rhythm a lot. And it was a time when YouTube liked uplifting content. That's right. There was like, there was a billboard where they would select the thing. Like it wasn't, not everyone had like a, their own curated algorithmically custom thing for them. There was like the front page of YouTube where they chose things in different verticals and everything, a lot of my videos would be on the nonprofits and activism, like top thing.

42:29And they would go viral. One was about malaria and drinking water. One was about,

42:38one was about malaria and drinking water. One was about internet porn. One was about nuclear weapons and nuclear proliferation. And it was like, oh shit, at all of these really kind of, we could take these dry things and turn them kind of Trojan horse style. We can teach, we can get messages out there and ideas out there that weren't sexy, but we can make them sexy and we can make them go viral and viral they went. It wasn't about me though. You know, Casey, Casey's videos are very much about him. He's talent. He's like in front of the camera talent. And so, so where I'm going with all this is that I was making these videos for a while and, and the goal was always to make them go viral, but they also were like positive for the world.

43:24And, and I was also serving a brand, I was serving a company and we were, every time we made a video, I made a video about alcohol and like who drinks the most alcohol around the world, alcohol. and I made this video and it was like, oh, we gotta get it to Ashton Kutcher to repost. Cause like - That was the moment when he was the first guy to get a million followers on Twitter. And that was such a big deal at the time. So he was like the most influential person in the social space. He and CNN were like in a, like this fun rivalry to hit 1 million followers on Twitter first. This is like 2000, 2009.

44:07Yeah. And 2008 or 2009. And I remember like every video we made, it was like, who can we get? It started to become that question. Well, who has so many followers that we can get to repost this? And Ashton Kittcher, by the way, did repost that video. And that was a time where if somebody reposted something that was meaningful, it didn't just get lost in a sea and then maybe some people see it or they don't. Like anybody who was on that platform, all 1 million of those people that followed him would see that. Right, there was still kind of a monoculture within the newly democratized social media world.

44:46Because it was pre-algorithm. It was pre-algorithm. I mean, look, the celebrities still were the big cheeses, right, like there weren't like micro celebrities and influencers, it was Ashton Kutcher. He was competing with CNN for views or for followers. So when Catfish came around and Neve called me to see if I would be in the pilot, a part of me was like, maybe if I'm on this show and maybe if the show does well, maybe I'll get a lot of followers. And then I won't have to be begging Ashton Kutcher to share my videos. Like maybe I can become vertically integrated. Okay. So that, so there was some calculus in there and to some degree that happened.

45:39That happened. And it has helped because I don't need to like beg a lot of other people to share my videos now. Yeah, and you kind of, you made a Ted talk about that, like being kind of a mini celebrity, right? Yes. Yeah. If I had to go back again though, I would not have done my Ted talk about that. You can do another one. Casey told me what I should have done my Ted talk about and to some degree, I think he was right. What's that? What happens when your first movie bombs? Yeah, we're getting to that. That'll be the, this'll be that Ted talk. So then I've now, I'm like starting to see the future of web video.

46:24I'm like, this is actually a viable place. I love doing everything myself. Like it feels like alchemy, like, oh, I can go and shoot something with by myself or with a couple of friends and we can put it online and then it can go super viral. And like, you get that intoxicating feeling. It's like, oh man, I wanna just keep on doing this. This feels great. And I see what Casey's doing and I see what my friends are doing, but I'm still being pulled towards this. Like, no, I wanna be Paul Thomas Anderson. Yeah, you're conflicted. Yeah, and I normally don't edit for other people. I normally just edit my own stuff.

47:05But again, I was like short on money because of this short film I poured on myself into. And my friends asked me to edit this film for them called about John Baldessari, the artist. And I was really down on myself as a filmmaker. And I was really, I just tried to make this pretentious art house film, my Paul Thomas Anderson film. And I was like, oh man, I don't know if that's me. I might've barked up the wrong tree. And then I sit down to edit this thing for my friends. And I'm like, so depressed. I'm really in the one of the raw states I've ever been in. Like I'm really like at an existential nadir.

47:47And I'm like, what do you guys want? Like, what do you want me to do here? And they're like, do what you do. I'm like, what do I do? Like, what is my thing? They're like, do your thing. I'm like, what is that? And they're like, I don't know, like use graphics and music and like make it fast and fun. I'm like, oh, is that my thing? And they were like, yeah. And Baldessari, they had filmed this interview with John Baldessari, he was this amazing artist. Sure. And he did not wanna be interviewed. He was very like salty and antagonistic during the interview. And he gave these one word answers, which is very bad when you're editing like an interview.

48:34Cause you're like, well, what am I supposed to do with this? There was supposed to be some voiceover in it. And like, while I was editing and starting to put it together, and my friends are like, you know, do what you do, do your thing. I'm like, okay. So I very much kind of like went as far in the extreme in the opposite direction as I could from the short film I made. I went like full on, like really fast, really internetty. Cissé, like not Paul Thomas Anderson. And we figured out that we could actually make the one word answers he was giving like almost like the punchline to the narration. So set it up so that like, if he said yes or no, like that was funny.

49:21And we did that. And that's a whole nother story, that video, but that video has gone on to actually get me a lot of work. It's been copied a lot, like HBO, like the Game of Thrones guys copied it for something they made for HBO. Like there's a long history of people copying that video. But that video for me was like a real milestone. because something broke in me. And by the way, I was so depressed when I was making it that I was taking stress naps. I was trying not to smoke weed, which I normally relied on when I was editing. And I was having multi, like talking to my therapist a couple of times a week, like while I was editing it, it was just like, I was really at the bottom.

50:09I make this thing and it blows up. Like they showed it at this gala at LACMA that the art and film gala and Clint Eastwood introduced it and Leonardo DiCaprio was there and I didn't get to go because I just edited it. Yeah, but you are the author of that, right? Taking this thing and putting your imprimatur upon it and in so doing, I guess what I'm gathering from the story is that this was a vehicle for you, not only kind of discovering your voice, but owning it in a certain way. Like, oh, maybe this is my thing. Or when somebody says, do your thing, they don't know exactly how to put a label on that.

50:52But there is something about your approach to narrative that's unique to who you are. And to kind of venture into that editing process and figure out how to take this thing that's kind of inert and not working for anybody and turn it into gold is a cool discovery, right? In your book, you talk about like a song, the song that, you know, your song. And it's funny because I always think about that Bono, U2 line, like a song that I can sing my own melody. And I've thought about that a lot for a long time. And working on that John Baldessari video, like cracked open what my song might be. It like gave me a very large insight into like a flash of like, oh my God, like this feels right.

51:46It felt as right as working on that other short film felt wrong. And I was like, there is something here and there's so much more here to mine. And Casey saw that video and it was that video that Casey was like, oh man, I want, like he reached out to me and I'd reached out to Casey for some other stuff before. And he totally like sloughed me off. Like he didn't even respond. Like I was like, oh, fuck that guy. Like maybe, yeah, maybe Casey thinks he's like hot shit and he's not gonna respond to me. And then he saw that video and he was like, hey, I'm doing, it was the first time he ever reached out to me, it was in email.

52:31and he was like, hey, I'm doing these videos for Nike. Can you edit, do you wanna edit them with me? And I was like, sure. I was like, I was honored. I was like flattered that this guy had previously like, who I knew of. And he was like a celebrity, a mini celebrity at the time. And he asked me to edit those videos. And it was my first time I came to the studio. I like, I got introduced to the whole Casey world, his whole universe, which is very interesting. And then I like lived inside of it for a while. And the third video we made together and we became fast friends, but the third video we made together was Make It Count.

53:14And so we made these first two videos and it was grueling and it was fun. And it was like, we were both getting to kind of know each other. And then it was my 30th birthday. I was here in LA. I get a call from Casey saying, what are you doing like on Monday? That's classic. Yeah, and I'm like, dude, I'm here in LA. He's like, I wanna make this third video for Nike. We're gonna go all around the world. I want you to start plotting out like places we could go to. And I'm like, okay. I was like, at that point I was like, I'm gonna say yes to anything Casey says. and I flew to New York. Like I had a notebook with some ideas of like cool places we should go to.

54:03I get there, I spend an hour or two at his studio and then we just go to the plane. Right to the airport. Yeah. And so I'm like, he's kidnapped me kind of and I'm like now strapped to this insane person. And here we are going around the world. I have no idea how long we're really gonna go for. we're talking about going to Egypt. There was just the revolution there. So I'm like nervous about some of the places we're going to. I'm a lot more neurotic and nervous and fear oriented than Casey. But I've had a lot of friends like Casey throughout my life. Like I become friends with people who are the opposite of that kind of fear oriented thing.

54:43So Casey is like one in a long line of like friends that pushed me out of my comfort zone. And we're throughout that whole trip, we're talking about what the potential for web filmmaking can be and what this world that's opening up before us can be. And it's very exciting because I have all my thoughts from coming from Good Magazine and making all these videos and having done Baldessari and it's like, oh my God, there's like a whole new vocabulary. Like these kids who are coming up, they can do the music, they can do the special effects. Like they don't, this is gonna be a problem for unions. This is like, this is going to be.

55:21Every paradigm is broken and all the gatekeepers are removed. And we are just psyching each other up about the future of web video. I've kind of coming at it from my own perspective, having lived in it for a while and Casey's coming at it from his perspective. And we're both aware that this video that we're making, make account like is his launch pad video. It's like inside of this is the DNA for like the bright future of web filmmaking that we are both psyching each other up about. And while I remember we were in Victoria Falls, we had just come out of Victoria Falls and like he had done a handstand like right near the, you know, the precipice.

56:10And something in me kind of like, I have this terrible realization, but it's also like a inspirational moment. I was like, fuck, there's this song that I've been sitting on as I tend to do. I've been sitting on this song and it's gonna be the end song of my first feature, but fuck, it's perfect for this video. It's the right feeling, I'm feeling it. And I played it for him. And I was like, but you can't have it. And I played it for him and he's like. It's Tiesto, right? No, no, it's Tiga. It's far from home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a DFA remix. I mean, I know, yeah, I'm recalling it now. And I'm like, oh man, I'm gonna give this to you, but I'm gonna hate you for it.

57:05And we come back from the trip, but I'm like really excited. I'm like, oh, here it is. Like my life has led me to this point. Like it is web video, this is the future. Everyone behind us are gonna be able to do all these things. I've seen the industry, it's a tidal wave. It's a tsunami that is going to crush the industry. And there's no way that it's not. And here in this video is going, it's like the fight song. And I spend a couple months editing it. It's only a three minute video, but I'm editing it like feverishly. I'm so excited about it. I've showed it to a few friends and they go nuts when they see it.

57:44Like it's like a motivation bomb. It's like an energy bomb. And we shot it in February, we released it in I think April or May. And like the internet. It was, it fulfilled that promise. It really was an indelible moment in YouTube history. And it did set Casey up in a new and different way. And he knew that. Yeah. To his credit, like he knew that that was his plan. Well, he, I mean, that's a superpower of his. He's always able to kind of foresee what's coming and approach it with a level of certainty. But for people who don't know, who haven't seen the video that we're talking about, basically, Casey was hired by Nike to make a commercial and there was a whole idea and a lot of meetings about what this commercial was gonna be.

58:37And instead, Casey took the entire budget and said, fuck it, we're just gonna travel around the world and use it however we want, and we'll figure something out, which was this sort of revolutionary act of independence and free spiritedness. And the result, this film that you guys did together, was, I mean, it's lodged in my brain forever. It really is quite a spectacular thing. Thanks. It's one of those things, and there've been a few of these projects where while I'm editing it, I'm feeling the energy of it. And it's just more exciting every time. When you edit something, you have to watch something and listen to something a kajillion times, which is why working on that kind of bad Paul Thomas Anderson movie was like killing my soul.

59:27Cause I had to keep on rewatching and re-feeling the disappointment in myself. Whereas like watching this and feeling this, I was like, wow. Like it's like a steel rod that's like heating up and I can, and if I'm feeling it this strongly, then I think other people are gonna feel it that strongly. And then when they did, it was like, holy fuck. Like what did we just release? And it, now here's the irony. We're getting to We Are Your Friends. So that video goes bananas. and I'm also now making Catfish. That video comes out while I'm making the pilot. No, Catfish has already been picked up. That video comes out while we're shooting the very first episode of Catfish where I'm locked now into making Catfish and that video comes out and it's going crazy.

1:00:20So now in the span of like a couple months, I'm making this new show on MTV. I have this crazy viral video that I made with Casey. I get another video off of that called follow the frog, which that also does really well. Like, and I use a lot of kind of the things I learned from Casey to make that video. And then off of that, all of that cumulative momentum, I get a phone call from working title, who is an amazing prestigious production company. They did, they done like almost all the Coen brothers movies. They did Fargo, they did Big Lebowski. They did, they also did like four weddings and a funeral.

1:01:05They did Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz. I mean, I get a call from an executive there who's a little younger than me saying, hey, this is, and I'm taking the call, I'm in Miami and we're shooting the last episode of season one of Catfish. just to give you a sense of timing. Episode one of Catfish, Make It Count comes out. Last episode of Catfish of season one, I'm getting this call from Working Title saying, hey, we wanna make a movie that's set in the world of electronic music. You know, we have a story and a script, but we kind of wanna rethink it. Would you be interested in like, in writing and directing it?

1:01:50And all of that unbridled enthusiasm and all in sensibility in this digital landscape immediately evaporates the minute you get this call, right? Forget about all that. No, it wasn't forget about all that. I wasn't that dumb. It was like, I see what we've unleashed here. I'm going to bring it. I'm gonna bring all of that. That energy into, so it's like a hybridization. Yes. Like everything was uni-directional going from cinema into the digital space. And now you're gonna point that arrow in the other direction. Like, I mean, listen, who wouldn't be excited to get that call? Well, I knew why I was getting the call.

1:02:37I was getting the call because of Make It Count and because of these ideas and this energy and stuff that I'd worked on with Casey and with Rel and Henry. and I saw how Rel and Henry brought, you know, their own very low-fi DIY filmmaking and how that became Catfish. So I'm thinking, oh, great. I'm going to take these lessons from here and I'm gonna translate them and adapt them and scale them up to here. And reinvent cinema. Correct. Yeah. And reinvent cinema, I did. Uh-huh.

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1:04:54So this movie gets set up, I'm sure there's a long history of development here, but eventually it finds its way to New Line, right? No. No? No, New Line was not involved. But Warner Brothers, which owns New Line is involved. No, there's no New Line. I got you. So working title is kind of - I see. The working title is the New Line. So all of a sudden now I'm developing this script for this very prestigious company and that made some of my favorite movies of all time. and I'm writing it and planning it and strategizing of it in the same way that I worked on Make Account and all these other things.

1:05:36So again, I'm trying to take, there's that great white stripe song, like when you're in your little room and you're working on something good, but if it's really good, you're gonna need a bigger room. But when you're in the bigger room and you might not know what to do, you might have to think of how you got started sitting in your little room. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna take what's in my little room and I'm now gonna blow it up into this movie. And we're gonna make it in this very guerrilla kind of way. I'm gonna make it with small cameras. I'm not gonna go Paul Thomas Anderson on it. I love how we're using Paul Thomas Anderson.

1:06:07Like until today. Poor Paul. Poor Paul. He's one of the most genius filmmakers of all time. I wish I could be like him. And so I wanna make it in this new style. I literally wanna, the process, I want it to be as loose and fun and explorative as Make Account was. And we did that. I brought Zach to like a music festival and we shot in this music festival. He had never been to a music festival like that because he had no bodyguards. He had no, like we did all this gorilla shit. We broke all these rules. We did all these things that people, you couldn't do in feature filmmaking. Like we were using all sorts of like shitty lo-fi video.

1:06:56I'm shooting some of, there's some parts of We Are Your Friends that I did shoot on my like catfish camera on purpose. So we got away with making it in this way and we got away with it because there was all this momentum and excitement around the internet, around internet filmmaking, around what we could do. Emily was just the kind of star of this giant viral music video, kind of maybe the last giant viral music video, Blurred Lines. Zach had just been in Neighbors and just kind of like subverted his high school musical thing. It was a weird mix of people like me, Zach and Emily, like and working title.

1:07:35Everybody in some sort of transitionary phase with their career. Totally. And I had been, let me back up for a second. The writing process goes well. We work with this great, I said to them, I didn't wanna write it by myself because I know that I'm a better editor than I am like a writer, but I can edit someone else's writing and then kind of add to it the way, again, I'm kind of working at it from playing to my strengths. So we kind of cast a writer and we find this great writer, Megan Oppenheimer. She now is like the show runner on Tell Me Lies. She's super young at this point though. I think she's like in her late 20s.

1:08:18and she and I work together and we write the script that we're really excited about and has a lot of voiceover in it and working title reads, they're liking it, liking it, liking it but then we get to a certain point and they're like, this opening, like it's really, this is on the script level, like this opening, there's too much voiceover. Why is the voiceover talking about all these non sequitur things? The voiceover needs to be like, if it's not giving us exposition, then it shouldn't be there, right? This is kind of classic filmmaking. And I've now done enough in the web space to be like, no, no, no, this is gonna work, trust me.

1:08:59But no matter how many times I said that to them, they were like, no, we've made films. We've made your favorite films. Like, we know what we're talking about. So I was like, all right, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna mock up the first four minutes of the movie. Cause I can. So I took parts of make account. I put, I did the voiceover myself and I mocked it up and I showed it to them. I was like, this is what I mean. And they were like, that's awesome. Can the whole movie be like that? And I was like, yes. And not only that, but that little sample I made is also got sent out with the script to all these actors.

1:09:40And Zach saw that and Emily saw that. And it immediately, in that, even that little video went viral, but it went viral in like the agency. In a closed loop within Hollywood. So all of a sudden, all these great actors, young actors and stuff wanted to be in it. And I didn't want Zach. Zach was still, you know, to me, it was like, oh my God, if we make this cool movie about music and stuff, but it has Zac Efron in it, people are gonna be like, oh, fuck this movie. You wanted a little darkness, a little edge. Right. But then Zach was in Neighbors and he was also the only star of that age that could get the movie financed.

1:10:23There was no other, you know, we came very close with some other people, but they weren't big enough value-wise to get the movie financed. And you need a star to get the movie financed. Like a Robert Pattinson. Sure. Or someone like that. Sure. Sure, but Zach loved this thing I made and he really liked the script and he was like running at the movie. And then I met with him and I watched all of his other films that weren't like Neighbors or High School Musical. And he was like, he's a really good actor. He's insanely talented. I mean, like people are like, you know, they see Iron Claw and they're like, Zac Efron.

1:11:04I was like, I know. It's an incredible performance in that movie. He's amazing. And so I see that he's amazing and I meet with him and I want him to play Mason. I'm like, I still am trying to like not cast him as the main character. Like, I'm like, why don't you play the best friend? Like he's gonna steal the show anyway. That's the role you want. And he was like, no, like he didn't want that role. He wanted the main role. And I was like, but the main role is not supposed to be this like super good looking guy. Like DJs are kind of like, they're a little like more awkward socially and they're not good looking.

1:11:37They're a little scrawny and like, Like they're the awkward person at the party. That's why they became DJs. So they can like be at the party and do their thing. And not really have to interact with anyone. Right. So I was like, fine, Zach, if we do this, like you're gonna have to lose a lot of weight and we're gonna have to like dim you down a little bit. Of course, he's still like super handsome and great. And so we get to making the movie and everything's going well. Everything's going well. We hit our marks, we make our, you know, Emily's really. You make the movie you wanna make. Very much so.

1:12:14There were some, my wings got clipped a little here and there, we made it independently. And then after we made it, I made like a trailer for it that went to like AFM, which is like American film market. And Warner Brothers bought it off the trailer. A24 and Warner Brothers were both jockeying for the movie. This is a little movie. We made it for five and a half million dollars. That is, it's not like a big Hollywood movie, but we made it with stars and because it looked, because it looked good and had good music and because it was edited in this fun, cool way, there was a lot of like, oh my God, we made it for so little money.

1:12:53And now there's all this potential that we can release this wide. It was my dream. It was like the... All the stars are aligning. Yeah. And I ended up like really editing it myself too in a lot of ways. And we can talk about how hard the making of it was, but I'm gonna skip that for a second. We ended up with a movie that everyone is really excited about. And I'm still editing it. And like, we're down to the wire with the editing as I constantly am. And this is, the movie's gonna come out August 28th. It is now July and the trailer comes out. And the trailer goes viral, but not necessarily for the right reasons.

1:13:39People think the movie looks good and exciting, but the whole DJ sphere is like, fuck this movie. Zac Efron as a DJ, fuck him. Fuck Hollywood who thinks they can kind of co-opt our subculture. And we had a lot of music. We're cutting, I cut to music, right? A lot of these scenes, the movie is kind of a musical and we have all these scenes that are cut to songs. A lot of those songs are from Auzla. Auzla is Skrillex's label. I met Skrillex briefly, but I met the people at his label. They were like, we had all this music. We had a song from Avicii in the movie and all that stuff. So you thought you had buy-in from that community.

1:14:27Yes. And also I had just made a documentary before this about DFA records. I make documentaries about musician people. I went out of my way to make sure that the movie was like authentic and accurate. I had, I went to the nth degree to make sure that we were authentic to the world and that it was all these things. This wasn't some cosplay situation. No. And I like went to the nth degree to make sure of that. and then the trailer comes out and everyone like all the people in the dj world shit on it auzla and avici pull all their music out of the movie this is like we're we're finishing the movie you just you didn't have signed license deals with them yet i don't i mean i don't know if what was signed or not but but they can do that yeah and so and then there were actually there's still some songs in the movie that people tried to take out, but they couldn't because they didn't own them outright or like, so all of a sudden I'm in this hostile situation, but that I totally foresaw.

1:15:34They wanted me to cast Zac Efron. I didn't want to cast Zac because my initial inclination was, oh God, like high school musical is going to invalidate this, this movie. We want kind of someone a little more unknown or a little more indie. But then I was like, oh, but Zac's a great actor, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now here we are, the trailer comes out, people see it and they're like, fuck this. Now I've got to re-edit scenes and like, we're up against this crazy tight deadline. New music. New music. It's only a five and a half million dollar movie. So it's not like I have like tons of cavalry to like help recut everything.

1:16:10It's like a bare bones crew. We're making now, we're backing, we're making this indie movie, but it's going to be pumped out and put through the machine of a giant studio. We didn't go to a festival. There was no word of mouth. It's just gonna be released everywhere. How many theaters? 3 ,200. For a$5.50 movie. Around the world. And there's this hope that it's gonna be like Project X or even Blair Witch, that we made it for so little money and it's got this big movie star and it's about this youth culture thing and that everyone's gonna see it. Now Warner Brothers in all their infinite wisdom decides that August 28th is the best day to release this.

1:16:54Is that the weekend before back to school? I mean, traditionally August, it's back to school and it's on the heels of, you know, the worst time of the year to release a movie, which is the doldrums of August. That's where they dump all the garbage. Right, so, right. That's where they dump all the garbage. And on August like 14th or something, that's when Straight Outta Compton came out, right? which is another music movie that also it's like, but it's about, and it crushes. And then two weeks later, and by the way, I'm like so far out of my league in terms of what's going on. Less than a year ago, I'm like making movies in my bedroom, you know, putting them out on YouTube.

1:17:39And now I'm sitting at like the conference table at Warner Brothers and they're saying, you know, there's 20 people in the room. And I'm like, it's like, I'm in Disneyland. I'm like walking on the Warner Brothers set. I'm eating at the cafeteria. I'm mixing with like the guy, you know. Yeah, and it's everything that you had imagined when you were that kid with the Hollywood dream. I'm 32. I'm like, I can't believe this is happening. This is amazing. I'm here, I'm doing it. I've made it. And they say, you know, one day I get a call from working titles saying, you know, we're gonna go with Warner Brothers instead of A24.

1:18:20And at that point, A24 wasn't really A24. It wasn't what it is now, but in retrospect, you could have been an A24, bro. Right, there's a sliding doors thing, which is like, fuck, I kind of, anyway. Cause that's the shingle that knows how to handle a project like this. Right, but I didn't know. Yeah, yeah, of course. I didn't know the difference between shingles. And you're gonna be deferential, you don't know, this is your first movie, you're surrounded by all these people that have made all these great movies, they know what they're talking about. Right, and now I'm in Warner Brothers. These people, again, they made my favorite movies of all time.

1:18:52I'm like, I didn't even, I'd never even went to a film festival with a feature film. So I have no experience in terms of rollout and like marketing or any of that stuff. In my mind, making the best movie is the best marketing tool, right? Make the best movie and people will find it. So now I'm in this crazy pressure cooker where I need to finish the movie, all the music, like a lot of the music just got yanked out. The public kind of hates it, even, you know, like are the people who I wanted to love it already are like pointing their middle fingers at it. But that's such a tiny subset of a film that has breakout potential to people who don't care about whatever that subculture has to say.

1:19:33It hurts my heart a little bit, but I'm still like, oh, this movie is, I believe in it and it delivers on its emotional, it delivers an emotional payload. And by the way, the song from Make It Count would have been the last, like the final song of We Are Your Friends. You could have reused it. I don't think anybody would have, would have, you know, cast aspersions on you for that. I have a story. I actually, so there's a ancillary story that's poetic in the sense that I end up using the original song that I was gonna start We Are Your Friends with for another Casey Neistat viral video that I made with him called Do What You Can't, which totally rips off the beginning of We Are Your Friends.

1:20:18Yeah, I mean those, well, and Do What You Can't and make a counter of a piece. Like those are very interrelated films. As is We Are Your Friends. Like We Are Your Friends is as much a part of those two movies as a feature film can. So, let's skip ahead a little bit. So, August 28th is the day. I don't even know that how bad a date that is, but I'm just kind of like, it's either August 28th or it's like the following year, because that's how big Warner Brothers like calendar is filled up. And if we have to wait a year, then all the music gets stale and we have to replace everything like, Like, and there's a fear that maybe we're gonna miss out, like the fever around electronic music and EDM or something is going to die down.

1:21:12Like, no, we need to get this out soon. So it's August 28th. It's coming out all over the world on the same day. There is no releasing on Netflix yet. It's literally probably the last year that that happened. And it's - It's premiere. It's Thursday. Yeah, we have a premiere. We have a marketing tour. We have a premiere in London. We have a premiere in Chicago. We have a premiere in LA at the Man Chinese Movie Theater. And then in San Francisco, but there I am. I'm at the Man Chinese Movie Theater. This is it. This is it. The poster's there. I'm being interviewed on the red carpet. The stars of the movie are there.

1:21:50The head of Warner Brothers is there. It's like, my parents are there. Like, this is it. I'm 32. We're having this big premiere. Like, I did it. I like, I touched the top of the pinnacle. And then, so that was like, let's say like Monday or something that was August 20th. The movie comes out August 28th. So it comes out of, and so I'm like, I'm euphoric. I'm in this crazy, like, I can't believe I've done it. I'm patting myself on the back, but I'm also super excited. Thursday rolls around. So movies come out on Friday here, right? Thursday rolls around, I'm on the phone. There are all these meetings I'm supposed to have the following week with all of these executives like who have heard about the movie and wanna talk to me about my next project, everything like that.

1:22:41Meanwhile, by the way, while I'm doing, while I'm making this movie and while I'm in this press store, Casey has started vlogging every day and his vlog is totally caught fire. I mean, and so we've very much gone down these totally different paths and I'm calling him intermittently being like, dude, I'm inside of the machine. I can't wait to tell you about what it's like inside of the machine. And he's like, I have no time for the machine. No, I mean, like, I was like, you're breaking paradigms on your own. And I'm like the inside man. And like, I wanna like, we can - The mole. Yeah. We can like figure this out, like a way to do this and blah, blah, blah.

1:23:21Thursday rolls around and I get a call from one of the guys from Warner Brothers. And he goes, I'm sorry. It's like he called me to say that someone like as if someone were dying. He's like, I'm really sorry, but you know, the returns came in from Australia and they're really low. And I'm like, so what? It's Thursday, like low returns from Australia. But like - It's like, what you don't realize is they know within hours before it's even, even the first screening in the United States, whether it's gonna be a hit or a dud. Totally. It's like when you post something on Instagram and like it only gets like 10 likes within the first five minutes or something, you're like, something's up.

1:24:09But I don't know that. And I'm like, oh, these guys, they don't know. They don't know the power of the internet. They don't know the way that this is all going on. Friday.

1:24:25Friday, Friday at 10 a.m. Friday, the reviews come out. Oh no. They're pretty bad. Some are great. We did get like some like three and a half stars, like, you know, Vulture, I know exactly who liked it and who didn't. And I will remember it for the rest of my life. But it's getting like a 48 % on Rotten Tomatoes. And I'm like, that hurts and was not expected. And a lot of it is about the narrative of Hollywood co-opting. They kind of took the mantle from like the anti Zac Efron Hollywood co-opting the subculture thing. And Skrillex and Avicii disavowing their role their role in the movie from the trailer.

1:25:19And so that hurts and was unexpected. And then of course, like, and then Saturday is like the box office disaster. Zac Efron movie makes no friends. Biggest box office bomb since 1984. You know, every headline about this giant movie that, that weren't, and no one, none of these. The thing is, it wasn't a giant movie. It was a$5 million movie. But the optics, they didn't play that up. Big movie stars, lots of theaters. It wasn't like paranormal activity where part of the narrative was like, oh, they made this movie for nothing and here and now we're bringing it to you big. That was hidden. The fact that we made it for nothing was hidden because they wanted everyone to think that it was a big.

1:26:08Yeah, I always thought it was like a 30,$35 million movie. It's a$5.5 million movie made in LA, which so$5.5 million made in LA, like doesn't like, it's more like a$3 million movie because a lot of that money goes to other things. So, and so that's Saturday and it's so hyperbolic. It's so extreme and over the top that it's like, it's funny at first to me, I'm like going through the seven stages of grief. Like at first it's like funny and it's like, But I've been on the phone with Warner Brothers and like surrounded by all these people. And so part of me, it's like, it doesn't feel, it's like, okay, so it doesn't have the biggest box office, whatever.

1:26:53Like there are plenty of movies I love that didn't open well. I mean, Office Space is a movie that like bombed at the box office, but went on. And then Monday rolls around and all those meetings that I was supposed to have with all those executives from all those other companies get pushed. And slowly I start to realize that like I've been dropped like a hot potato, like the... Do not pass go, go directly to director jail. Yeah. The narrative in the industry world, thankfully, this is like a small consolation, was that Warner Brothers mishandled the marketing of the movie, that they didn't know how to market a movie like this and that they really screwed up.

1:27:46At least that's what - That plays into the sliding doors, A24 fantasy. It certainly does. And it also plays into the release date being wrong and all that stuff, but it's cold comfort. And now I've got it. And then it took a while. It took like a week or two or three or maybe even a month for it to like to really hit me. Cause it was so surreal. I was up here. Yeah. I did it. I was there at the Man Chinese movie theater like two weeks later. Phones not ringing. Phones not ringing. Calls not getting returned. No, I'm. Meetings canceled. I mean, you don't like. You just go from hero to zero, like in a, yeah, a blink of an eye.

1:28:41And then there's like a podcast in New Zealand that pops up that's called the worst idea ever, where they play a terrible movie for like a year that they watched the two guys like live, you know, there was the honest movie trailer version of we are your friends. then comes all like the ridicule. So it's like, it's not just that it opens badly and that there are bad headlines and that like, you know, the executives that I was supposed to have meetings with producers, like then there's like the public ridicule, right? Like, so these two guys in New Zealand watch the movie once a week and like just talk about how bad it is.

1:29:22Here at the silent movie theater, they had a night where they invited comedians to come and basically live, like do standup live while the movie is rolling. Oh no, I didn't know that. Oh yeah, it catches fire in the like the social media. It goes viral. The badness of the movie. For all the wrong reasons. Goes viral on top of all of that, which maybe hurt more than the industry stuff. Did you get any, did you win any Razzies? No Razzies. No Razzies. No, because a lot of the people, everyone who liked the movie, and there were a lot of people at the beginning that liked the movie, I was proud of the movie.

1:30:10But here's the thing, the movie's good, right? It's good, it's a really good movie and it's developed this cult following. There is a significant audience that absolutely loves this movie and it still breathes life. And I'm so grateful and thankful. Like when people come up to me on the street and they say, oh, we love you from Catfish. It's like, it makes me feel like this good. When people say, I loved We Are Your Friends. It's like, I will be like, do you, what do you, do you, what do you want? Do you want a poster? Like, what can I give you? And, but yeah, it was bad. And then I was like forced to be like, am I, maybe I'm not a good filmmaker.

1:31:04Maybe I'm bad. Maybe what I think is good is not considered good by other people. You start to realize, everyone who's made a bomb hopes that it becomes a cult classic. That's like the only place you have left to go. is like, oh, well, I, fingers crossed. Unless you're the, like, who's the guy, the true cult filmmaker who made the worst movie of all time. Oh, Tommy Wiseau. Yeah, Tommy Wiseau. The other room. Who just, you know, he's created his counter narrative around that and just relishes the fact that it's bad and still has some weird argument about why it's good. But anyway, that's the true last stop.

1:31:41Yeah, exactly. You're like, yes, I mean, but I'm telling you, I'm sure in the mind of every filmmaker who's made a bomb, like they're like, maybe I'll be - Someday, yeah. Someday it will be rediscovered. It will be unearthed and appreciated. Yeah, I mean, that's the only place you have to go. But that has happened. Amazingly, it has. And I think it has, but I've learned a couple of things along the way. One, when everyone, even the people who liked it, were tweeting about it. And you can, by the way, if you wanna like put poor salt in the wound when you have a bomb, like just go on Twitter and just type in the name of the movie and you will just see what everyone is saying about it.

1:32:24And, but a lot of people who liked it, even now, what they say, and I haven't looked on Twitter in a while, which is a good, it's like a good mental health check that I haven't, because I was doing it for a long time, looking at what people were saying about it and like using it to flagellate myself. but they'll say oh you know that it wasn't that bad it wasn't so better or like i it's always qualified as like i know everyone says this movie sucks but it's okay like that's how everyone talks about a movie that gets reviewed negatively or like has some bad juju around it and now of course people who watch it none of that there's no baggage to it they're not feeling that kind of of stuff and.

1:33:13Yeah, they're discovering it without the halo of that narrative hanging over it. Right. Yeah, so they can go to it with fresh eyes. And look, if it came out on Netflix, it would have been a totally, and by the way, that's why. Or if Netflix today just acquired it and decided to put it on their homepage. Totally. I'm sure it would do incredibly well. You know, I do get residuals from it. So people somewhere are watching it, But I definitely went into a multi-year long tailspin about it that I've come out of, but not like that long ago. And it was bad. You've spoken on the show about, we all have stories we tell ourselves about ourself.

1:34:04And that is very much who we think we are. And when your whole life and your whole identity is built around being this filmmaker. Literally everyone I've ever met from 15 years old on, that's who I am, I'm a filmmaker. And I finally made this first movie and it was very public, it was a huge public failure. It wasn't like some small art movie that went to a festival. It was like shot out of a cannon and was publicly derided and ridiculed. And so everyone saw how bad it was received. And then you're like, you start to question everything and every decision. And am I just wrong? Am I like, what was me?

1:34:54What was them? I still think the movie is good. Does that, there are other people who make shitty movies and they know they're shitty and then they get good reviews. and that's a whole different, like, that's a different mind fuck. So why did this thing, why does this thing work so well on the internet? And then I got here and then it was like hated widely. Like, where did I go wrong? Did I not listen to people? Is it the industry? Is it me? Did it get watered down by the process? Like, and it was bad. It was really bad. And dicks came out of that. Part of that questioning was, am I just a bad leader?

1:35:35Like maybe I got tripped up by wanting to appease all the powers that be. And I, you know, I, oh my God, these dick directors, they're dicks because they have to protect their vision. They create, maybe they're doing the dick thing on purpose. Maybe they create this dick reputation for themselves so that like when executives or whatever try to like mess with - Weedle with it. that they're protecting the sanctity of the creative work. But you being somebody who is so enamored with Hollywood, you're coming into it with a much more deferential disposition, right? Like you're gonna say yes, because you're thinking, I want these people to like me and I wanna have a career here.

1:36:17And I'm gonna be agreeable because, you know, I wanna have these people in my life and be champions of what I'm trying to do. And that ends up kicking you in the ass and slingshotting in the reverse direction. Yeah. But also to add to that, it wasn't just that, oh, I want them to like me. It's like, these people have made great films. I hired people. And you're new, like, yeah. I wanna learn, I can learn from them. If they're saying, this is what works and we know it works, you're gonna say, okay, you have done. This is my first movie. And I'm come from documentary filmmaking where I think that everyone has something to offer.

1:36:58and these people who've made these great films, it's like, oh, teach me the wisdom that led in small part to your contribution to that film. And so I'm listening to them and I'm trying to like, I wanna be a democratic leader who's like best idea wins. Like that's how I'm approaching, that's how I approached We Are Your Friends. Right, but great creative works are rarely the product of a committee, right? And so the takeaway is what? it. Well, so I, so I'm asking myself, like, was I too, did I try to appease too much? Did I play ball too much just to, because I was so, I put them on a pedestal.

1:37:38Did I put too many people on a pedestal? Did I try to, did I do this to myself? Was it death by a million cuts? Did I try to, anyway. And so that's, that was also part of what went into dicks. It was just like, Like it wasn't just like, oh, how do I manage people? It's like, how do I protect the sanctity of the vision? And making Dix to be honest, like was very helpful because it was a crash course in leadership and it was a crash course in how to embark on a creative endeavor in a way that threads the needle. Like not where I came out, where I netted out with dicks is, and I think about dicks all the time, like every day.

1:38:23And I think about the cuts, the parts that I cut out of it, the like the great lines that didn't make it into the final cut, but I still reference. And the books that I read, I'm still rereading. Like, you know, everyone has their own style. It's just who you are. And if you're not a dick, you can't fake it. You can't just be a dick if that's just not your inner, You know, dicks, if you're born a dick and you're creative, then like, great, congrats. Like you are maybe going to be able to protect your vision and make your, you know, authorial, autorial work. But you might have other problems in your life.

1:39:05Like you might have problems with your relationship and your kids and like - You can set a firm, healthy boundary without being an asshole. And there are ways to do that. You can work on yourself, which I definitely have. I've learned not to do certain things that are in my nature to do. And I'm trying to get better at second nature aspects of that. Then there's also like partnering, right? Like you don't have to be a dick if you hire a dick to like protect you. And that's why so many of these, like you meet Spike Jones and he's like the nicest, sweetest guy. But like, I'm sure he has a team of people.

1:39:40Surrounded by a phalanx of people that protect him. Right. Who have the harder conversations. Right. That's always the case. Well, sometimes it's not though. Sometimes you have Kubrick or like Michael Bay who are just come in with a hard hand and they're like, it's my way or the highway. This is how it's gonna be. And we like to lionize those people we used to as being like, oh, like the military kind of the general paradigm of being a leader versus, you could be a coach, you could be a teacher, you could be a conductor of an orchestra. Like there are these other metaphors that work maybe better, but you have to be true to like your nature.

1:40:19Yeah, yeah, I understand that. Yeah, I get that. I still think that, I know that in the aftermath, like the immediate aftermath of that experience, you know, Monday morning and, you know, everything that that rot over the coming days and weeks, where you were sinking, you know, deep into a dark hole. I know that Casey's advice to you was, you need to immediately start making something else. And that thing should be the lived experience of what happens when your movie bombs. Right. And I think in fairness to you, that would probably be, you were so emotionally distraught at that time that maybe that wasn't possible for you.

1:41:06but I think that would have been something that would have connected with a lot of people because nobody wants to hear about somebody whose movie, you know, kicks ass, but everybody can relate to somebody who has a dream and falls short and has to weather, you know, the experience in the aftermath of that. Yeah, I was really paranoid that this failure was gonna define me. It was so extreme and hyperbolic that like, I was really afraid that this was gonna be a permanent mark on who I am. And I didn't at the time want to be the My Movie Bombed guy. Mm-hmm. I like didn't want to lead with that. I didn't wanna project.

1:41:50But unlike so many other feature film directors, you have this whole other world that you know extremely well. And it's a land of golden opportunity that these other filmmakers know nothing about. Maybe they're not interested in it, but they have no experience there. But Hollywood doesn't give a shit about web filmmaking and how well your films are looked at and how highly you're considered there. They don't give a fuck about how great a commercial director you are, even if you're making commercials at the Super Bowl. They don't care if you've made the best documentary in the world. Like - That's not necessarily true.

1:42:38You can maybe - I mean, look at, you can look at Johan Rank or you can look at Brian Fogel who made Icarus and now is making, you know, like there are people - They need to reprieve. And the reason that you were in the position to make that movie was because they did notice what you had done there. It's true, but I didn't have a mark against me at that point. But I would, but all those guys, as anyone who's jumped a vertical to play in a different sandbox has to kind of start at the bottom of that. Like, yes, if you win the Academy Award for a documentary, then you'll have a shot to direct a narrative.

1:43:15But like these - Like Jimmy Chin and Nyad. Yeah. Or like the guy who directed Man on Wire, you know, he directed Theory of Everything. But you're gonna be, there's gonna be a babysitter. There's gonna be a babysitter and everyone, and they're gonna be like - Second guessing. Was he able to convert it? Like, did he convert? Did he not convert? And that also, the We Are Your Friends fiasco, which again, I'm still so confused about it. Cause again, I feel like I made a good film and I'm not confused about that. So I'm confused about how, look, is it the greatest film of all time? No. Is it the best I could have done at that time given the circumstances?

1:43:57Definitely. And so I'm still confused how to talk about it because it's like, not like I wanna say, oh yeah, I just like, I don't know what I was thinking. It was just really bad. And I like fucked up and like, I told the actors to do all the wrong things like, cause I don't believe that. I don't think that's true. It's all about context. It's a 5 million, if it had premiered at a certain festival or a different, you know, it came out at a weird time, whatever. There's a million reasons you can spend your lifetime like trying to, you know, forensically deconstruct it. The question that I have, and I think it's the, you know, the main one for you is, did that experience disabuse you of all the romance of Hollywood that you've, you know, kind of harbored in your imagination?

1:44:45Is it an experience that then allows you to step into the digital landscape and kind of own your space there without reservation? No. Or are you still somebody who's trying to straddle these worlds equally on unsure footing about where you actually want to stand? Well, the answer is it didn't disabuse me of my reaching for the gold ring. It certainly sucked and it definitely illuminated all the ways in which the industry can like, all the bad aspects of it that I was already chafing against when I was making it. We didn't talk about the making process, but like making a movie like that, even if it's a$5 million movie, which is like, you have a little more kind of flexibility and stuff because you're like, you're more nimble.

1:45:40Like it's nowhere near as fun as going out and making a web video. It's like the difference between riding a bike and driving like a tractor trailer. Like you just don't, you know, a lot of European directors like Vim Vendors like was talking about, or I think it was in the documentary about his DP, like the way they made their films in Europe, like they'd see something on the side of the road while they were driving in the car and they'd be like, oh, there's a great, there's something great here. Let's get out and shoot like a scene here. You can't do that here in the US because you got the trucks and the catering and all that stuff.

1:46:19And so that was already like kind of a level of like, oh, this is not as fun as like making, going out and like just making a web video. And then of course the reception of the movie and that whole distribution aspect of it was really not fun too. And then I was kind of turned around for a while and I made dicks and dicks ended up doing like really well on YouTube. You're constantly rewarded on YouTube and you had this really insane experience in Hollywood. So when you map it out, Max. Yes, are you trying it like, is this an intervention? No, it's not for me. This is an intervention. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1:47:04It's not for me to tell you what to do. And I have no judgment on it. Like I feel for you, man. I'm like, empathetic. Like I understand that. Like I live in LA. I know what that dream is. And even being older than you, it's probably more calcified in somebody like me than it is for somebody of your generation. So like, I totally get it. But there's so much opportunity and the lights are nothing but green when you step into that space. And I think there is something energetically about trying to straddle two worlds where you're not really committed to either, that is holding you back. And when you finally decide like, I'm gonna go all in on this, things start to happen in a new and different way.

1:47:53And maybe that other thing comes around, but it only comes around when you have completely let go of it. And you're holding on tightly to different reins and it's creating, I think it's creating dissonance and confusion that's like mucking up the gears and fucking up your whole deal. To your credit, you've done a great job at putting your finger on what has been a very central point of anxiety and ambivalence in my life. And which is all to say that very recently, I have been able to reconcile these two things. You asked, in the wake of we are your friends, did that disabuse me of my desire? It didn't, I was scarred and hurt and I took to YouTube and I went back to Catfish for a while.

1:48:50And I was just like, I need to rebuild myself. And I've now thrown a lot against the wall in a lot of different part of - There's something scattershot about it. Well, and not to put words in your mouth, I think, and the reason I reached out to you is because you're on the cusp of releasing this series around happiness and you've made the decision to do this on YouTube. And I don't know whether HBO said no or you even thought about that, but I think it presents this fresh start and this new opportunity for you to redefine your mission or refine your mission and commit to this as a path. Like, I think it's really cool and interesting that you're gonna release an entire series on YouTube.

1:49:46I'm sure there are streamers or Peacock or Tubi or whatever, there's so many other places where you could drop something like this. And the decision to do this, I think to me, is a statement that you're making about, you know, the career that you wanna pursue. Or maybe you're just throwing another thing up against the wall, I don't know. No, I'm not. But how does that land? I hope you're not. I'm not, I actually purposefully didn't even pitch this around to anyone. I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna go through the two months of getting kicked in the balls by people like poking. You don't need a gatekeeper.

1:50:26You don't need anyone to say, Max, this is good or Max, we love you. You have everything you need and people love what you have to say. And the way in which you say what you wanna say is beloved. Like, I think this is a really exciting moment. And I guess what I would say is my hope for you is that you are honoring it in that spirit. And you know, you allowed me to see the first two episodes of it, I think it's fucking fantastic. You're talking about things that are really important that you're struggling with and trying to learn about in real time. And there's something really, really vital and endearing and important and connective about that, that you don't get when it's, there's a separation when it's on a television network or on a movie screen, but there's something about YouTube that feels very personal.

1:51:26It's a direct communication to the people who love what you do. I've, yeah, I've definitely thrown a lot at the wall over the last 20 years. And the thing that has come back to me the most in spades is the YouTube stuff. It just, that's where people connect with it. that's where the conversation can kind of keep going. I have a lot of ideas and I fall in love with the person, like I fall in love with the idea. And sometimes that idea is a YouTube video. Sometimes that idea is a TV show that needs to be on a streamer. And that's the Soderbergh thing. Yeah, and I'm very true to that. And like once I get an idea in my head, I can't shake it.

1:52:15And it like it reveals where it should be. this happiness thing. And all of these kind of, you know, they kind of fit into this little category I like to think of as Neurotica. Like these personal issues that I have that I know are probably universal that if I go down the rabbit hole and they really help me out, like, you know, it's not too different than the podcast. Like I know that if I go down the happiness rabbit hole, I'll come out the other side, understanding a lot more about happiness and maybe even being happier. And that has certainly been the case on this. But I also know that the place for that is YouTube and the internet.

1:52:56And I have taken, like, I just moved to New York. I left LA for various different reasons. But I feel way more resolved about the direction I'm going in. And I'm just, it feels so much better and more liberating to embrace like this thing. Again, I was there with Casey at the, you know, at the genesis of his online, you know, dominance or conquering, or those are both very combative words that I wish I would choose another word. But, and I kind of still try to straddle both worlds. and this YouTube web filmmaking world is my, it's my world. It's been the world that I've been in. It is your world.

1:53:48And that doesn't mean that there may not come a day where you're gonna make a feature or a documentary that gets released theatrically. But I think on the subject of happiness, I can imagine a world in which that feature film crushed it and was everything you hoped it would be. And the aftermath of that was not looking at Metacritic and people criticizing you, but staring at your navel and trying to make sense of why it didn't deliver on the promise of happiness that you were convinced it would. And you would still find yourself in this place, making a series on happiness as a result. I made this thing for, with HBO Max.

1:54:38That was my, that was very much my idea. I made it with, well, mine and Monica Lewinsky's. Like we did this thing on public shaming. I was very passionate about that subject, social media, public shaming, like the kind of complicated tangle that that is. And we spent three years making HBO Max. We did, you know, like made a, and I made it the exact same way I made Dix or bookstores. It's the same, I used all the same people I used before I made it and we got to, like we got to a place where everyone loved it. We got to the marketing meeting with HBO Max and we're like, so what are you thinking?

1:55:18How are we gonna get this out to the world? And they're like, well, we're thinking really that you and Monica should post a lot about it.

1:55:28Monica's already doing press for American Crime Story, so she's gonna go on all those shows. She'll be able to talk about this a little. That's what I would do if I didn't have HBO. That's what you're supposed to, that's the whole like value proposition of working. This is the same thing with book publishing too. It's the same thing. Like it's still on you. And then I don't have to take responsibility. Yeah, but it's exactly. So after that, I was like, well, fuck. Like if that was right, That's the whole value proposition is that you guys make sure. You take care of that part, yeah. And if you wanna make an impact, if you want people to see your work, at least me, I'm just talking like, if I want people to see my work, if I want to make an impact, if I want to connect with other people, it's pretty clear where that place is.

1:56:26And I am much more resolved now And this happiness thing has been incredible. Like we dropped the trailer and no marketing people, no marketing teams, no, it's just like all just me and a couple people and it seems to resonate and it's just the right place for it. It's the right avenue for it, the right platform. And yeah, I mean, that I definitely do feel much better about where everything is going and just my, you know, where I'm going. I have a million questions, but I guess I would, I'd like to end it with how the experience of making this series changed you. Like what stayed with you? Like has it impacted your decisions and your behavior?

1:57:24Yeah. I mean, you don't kind of immerse yourself in happiness for two and a half years without like coming out the other side, you know, thinking differently about the world. The thing that I think sticks with me the most is kind of circling what happiness is. Like we all spend a lot of time kind of unpacking and dissecting our unhappiness and like analyzing, like why don't I feel good, blah, blah, blah. But not really focusing on what feeling good and being happy actually is and it's complicated. It's not just one thing. And then there's like, is it joy? Is it like just contentment? Is it like just feeling satisfied?

1:58:09Is it the happiness of having climbed a mountain that was really hard and then looking down on it? Or is it more of like an everyday, like the taking in, smelling the flowers kind of thing. And where you were really all nets out And it kind of all the happiness stuff leads to the exact same place, which is friends, family, community. More love. It's community. It's basically like what real happiness is. And I wish, yeah, there's so much to say about it. But if you're not, when you hang out with friends and you laugh, that's happiness. Like that's about as good as it gets. when you hang out with your family and you're having a meal and your friends are there and a romantic partner is there and you've got romance, friends, family, love, like, and maybe you say something funny and people laugh with you, like there's, that's happiness.

1:59:10That is truly as good as it gets. That's as good as it gets. You don't get better than that. Like that is, that's it. And kind of understanding that that's what happiness is really helps you reprioritize your life around the things that really matter. It's not just family, right? And it's not just friends and it's not just job. But that connection and friendship piece is the one we kind of under index in the Western world the most. And it's generally like filled with alcohol and other substances that undercut the actual joy that that stuff is too. And it's something we wedge in when it's convenient and doesn't interrupt.

2:00:01What we delude ourselves is the true path to happiness, which is achievement, success, accomplishments, striving, all the like, right? Yeah, that there, scientifically, there is a ceiling on those things. Like you can't be so successful in your career that it makes up for all the other ways, deficits you have that would make you happy. You can't make so much money that it just makes you happy. You need to have friendships, family, love. Like you need to serve all of these. You have to have all of those six neurotransmitters in balance, right? I'm not gonna spoil it, but that's an important piece that gets revealed in the first episode.

2:00:49Yeah, and knowing that, even just keeping that metaphor in my mind, like definitely has really helped me become way more reconciled with myself and just resolve to live in a better, more balanced way. But balance is such a vague, like overused term that like, I don't even wanna like say balance. It's, there are six, I mean, according to this, you could think of them as buckets or values that need nourishment. Yeah, there's this guy that I interviewed, this neuroscientist, Axel Bouchon, who is really on the cutting edge of kind of proving what happiness is in the brain, like from a scientific FMRI.

2:01:43Like a neurochemical. From a neurochemical perspective. He comes from the pharmaceutical industry. And this is a way to access that without drugs, without psychopharmacological drugs. And I think that there's a lot of value to it. I love that guy. I'd never heard like that way of explaining happiness before. I thought it was super interesting. How many episodes are there? There's six, but it's kind of open-ended. I kind of, I want it to keep on going. Yeah. And that's again, what's so great about YouTube is that you can do that, right? There's one episode is about the neuroscience. One episode is about kind of the philosophies, the different philosophies of happiness.

2:02:32One is about the, you know, Scandinavia and - The Hyga, Hyga, Hyga. Hyga. Yeah, Denmark, but what is - You go to all these places, you go to Denmark, you're with the people, you're trying to understand what makes these Scandinavian countries different? Why are they always on the top of the list when it comes to the happiest people in the world? Right, it's like, what is the whole deal with Scandinavia? And like - You're like, it's cold, they don't look that happy. What's going on here? It's not joy. Yeah. It's the absence of misery. It's like there is a - And the haiga is about valuing those moments of connection, like prioritizing it and making it like part of the flow of life.

2:03:18Right. As opposed to something you do on the weekend. Well, it was really interesting that it didn't make it into the cut, but like when we were in Scandinavia, like we couldn't go to a restaurant because you have to make reservations so far in advance. They're huge social planners. So the idea of like spontaneity, like, oh, I'm gonna just duck into this restaurant. Like they make reservations and they plan their social events like weeks in advance. And then they look forward to them. And they like, it's like, oh, I can't wait for this to happen. And then when they're there, oh, now it's happening.

2:03:53And then after it happens, it's like, oh, wasn't it great when we all got together and happen like there's. We're like, oh God, I gotta go to that thing tonight. Like it's dread. Yeah. Why did I say, yeah, I gotta drive. And it's like, maybe I'll go, maybe I won't, but I'm gonna like drive myself crazy thinking about it up until the last possible second. And then I'm gonna jump and decide in the air, you know? Like we approach those things as impediments to happiness. Right, because we think that liberty, that being free to make any decision and move in any direction we want at any point in time is that liberty and freedom is what happiness is.

2:04:33And maybe it's not. I'm not, I'm still a sponsor. Well, what that gets at is like the primacy of the self. Like what's important is how I feel and what I wanna do. Well, so one episode I didn't send you was about, is the philosophy episode, which goes from Plato, Aristotle, Maslow, and talks about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and all that stuff. And in basically all the Western literature about happiness, it's very individual based. It's all about the individual. Self-actualization is the height. That's the peak of Maslow's hierarchy. Self-actualization, right? It's not about like mutual actualization if you're in a couple or group actualization in a community.

2:05:27It's about self-actualization, which obviously dovetails really well with, you know, capitalism and rugged individualism. But it's also maybe why America and a lot of the other Western capitalist countries are at the bottom of the mental health survey index. Despite our GDP and all of the money and products and stuff we have, we are very mentally unhappy and unhealthy. So, you know, community, others, making sure, it's like it's communal actualization. Yeah, connection, connection. I just got back from India and I had the opportunity to go to Dharamsala. I was invited by Arthur Brooks, the happiness guy himself, right?

2:06:20He brought a small group to go spend two days with the Dalai Lama and Arthur hosted it and kind of conducted this ongoing conversation with the Dalai Lama. But the theme of course was happiness. And the foundational question is like, why are we unhappy? Or what is it that will drive greater happiness? And no matter what question was posed by Arthur or any of the other people that we were with, his answer was essentially always the same. He kept going back to the same thing, which is love, like more love, more love. If you're having trouble connecting with love, look to the mother's love for a child or look in the animal kingdom and see how the mother cares for the child and try to engender or channel more of that into your life as a means of being more charitable, of being more forgiving, of cultivating gratitude and creating more connection with people.

2:07:28That is the path. And it's so anathema to our way of life and this bill of goods that we've been sold about what drives happiness that even in the face of watching your series or reading Arthur's books or having all of these experiences, we still hold onto this idea that, yeah, I get it. But the happiness that I'm looking for, I'm telling you, it's just over that hill and I'm gonna get there and I'm gonna do it by getting this and doing that. And people are gonna say this and then I'm gonna arrive. And disabusing ourselves of that delusion is a very difficult task. Well, that's what we've been talking about this whole time.

2:08:12Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the kind of quest for that Paul Thomas Anderson level. And then you'll be happy. Right. So from that lens, and I think this is how we're gonna have to end this, your movie not doing well was actually a gift. Perhaps you were spared of a longer tail to learning this lesson and arriving in this place where you're realizing you could use a little more happiness and you wanna actually understand what it is. Because if you had been successful, maybe you would be up in a house, up in the hills over here, and you would be one of those dicks, and it would be 20 more years until everybody's retreated from you and you realize like, I've basically created this entire life on a lie.

2:09:02And that lie, like that promise of happiness, not being delivered and realizing that it's a lie would only then in your dying years, send you down the rabbit hole and off to Denmark to try to understand what happiness is. So you have been spared, my friend. And I think it's a beautiful thing that you've gone on this exploration and that you're using your craft and your art to share what you discover with others. I think that's a real public service. And I think you're an incredibly gifted person. and I hope you just continue to do more of this. Thanks, man. I appreciate this. This has been a gift.

2:09:40Can I say one thing? It won't take very long. I do feel like there's something that the world wants from you. You talk about service a lot, but the world, you might think that the world wants this thing from you, or you might wanna give the world this thing, but the world might want something else from you and it'll tell you, if you throw a lot against the wall, the thing that'll come back to you is the thing that the world wants from you. And listening to that is really important. Like instead of just insisting, no, no, no, this is what I wanna give. That's still the I. But listening to what the world is asking from you and rewarding you for is really kind of, I mean, you get to be around 40 and you've been around and you've put enough feelers out to see what's coming back.

2:10:40And I don't know, I think that there's something to that, right, like it's not just about how can I find my way to serve the world, but it's more like, what is the world asking me to serve it? I think that there's something in there. Yeah, I could do with a little reflection on that idea myself. Well, haven't you kind of, I mean, hasn't the world kind of told you that? Yeah, but I think you can also, you can create a little bit of a gilded cage around that as well. And things can become a little bit static. And I think, listen, at this point, like this thing works, I could do this, I love doing it.

2:11:26but is there something else out there? Is there another way to bring expression to the ideas that I care about that I think are important? And I'm writing a book this year. It's the first one I've written a long time. So I am spreading my wings in a new and different way and trying to extend or expand kind of the character of this thing that we do here and we'll see, I don't know. But that's like negative capability, you gotta. What do you mean? That's like the Keats' notion of, you know, being comfortable in the discomfort of, you know, if you shouldn't be complacent, right? Like you need to like constantly be okay living inside of the uncertainty.

2:12:16This has become so comfortable that it's uncomfortable. Right. You know what I mean? Cause I know that I should be testing other things and trying new things. And the creative person inside of me has a yearning to express, but this has, I've created this whole thing to be this massive, excuse or distraction so that I don't have to pay attention to that other thing that's calling me, right? Yeah, I like this. Let's turn the tables around. Let's talk about your high class problem. Yeah, it's a very high class problem. So you can come back and then you can host me if you want. You can be a guest host and interview me maybe.

2:12:57Sounds good. All right, dude. So if you wanna learn more about Max, I guess go to your YouTube channel. These episodes, are you gonna drop them like weekly or all at once? Weekly. Weekly, right on. Anywhere else you wanna direct people to see your stuff? We'll link up a bunch of the work that you've done, but your YouTube channel, right? No, look for me at the man Chinese movie theater. You'll be at the 10 a.m. screening of, whatever's showing you're gonna get up on that in front of everybody. No, follow me on social media and on my YouTube channel, I guess, to see all these great things that are gonna come out.

2:13:36But thank you for your time. And thank you for this kind of like de facto therapy session. You feel all right? It was good. Yeah, I feel like vulnerable. I feel like quite opened up. Yeah, I feel cut open and exposed, but that's good. Right on, man. Well, best of luck with all this stuff. Thanks, man. Cheers, buddy.

2:14:10That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

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2:16:06No!