From Celebrated Pop Star to Olympic Hopeful: Cody Simpson On Chasing Big Dreams, Finding Himself & Lessons Learned From Sport & Stage

26:59but I think now I feel much more comfortable within that, within myself. And yeah, and also I haven't given it a whole lot of thought lately because I haven't really, I've just been so wrapped up in something else. But the thing is, it's always there. Like swimming can't always be there because there's a biological clock ticking. But there isn't as a creative and as a performer, like you know that when you're ready, you'll be able to devote your energy to that. You know, the other thing is like you started acting, you did Broadway, you did a bunch of TV stuff. So when you see like, I don't know, like when you see Timothee Chalamet in Dooned, do you think like, hey man, if I had like not taken this detour, maybe that's me?

27:48Like do you harbor those sorts of thoughts at all? Or are you just like, I'm cool, man. Like I'm so happy. The swimming detour? Yeah, like are you just, are you grounded and just that convicted in what you're doing right now that that doesn't, those kinds of thoughts are not part of? I have moments. Yeah. I have moments. You're like, that guy? Yeah. That guy's doing that? Come on. Yeah. I could have done that better than that. I don't know about better than him, but yeah. I have moments for sure. They're short, they're fleeting moments, but they're there. And sometimes you go, but I think no matter what decision you make, you're gonna wonder what the other one would have been like.

28:27But I also know that I have time. And that's what gives me comfort is that I've got time to - You're doing this thing. It's like when Jodie Foster went to call it, Yale or Natalie Parton, it's like this is your version of that. Yeah, exactly. And I know that say even if I stop swimming next year, like I'll be 27 and I can look at or plan on whatever it is I wanna sort of stop pursuing from then it's gonna be, I think it'll just be music. That's sort of my primary interest in post swimming life is being a musician and touring and making records and stuff. And that's not going anywhere. Yeah. I said this to you at breakfast the other day, like I have a special place in my heart for, you know, high performance in general.

29:19We can all learn from people who are excelling in their respective disciplines, but there's something really cool and unique about people who find a way to achieve legend status in a multiplicity of kind of specialties. And I was sharing with you how I had Leslie Patterson on the podcast the other day, who is the Oscar nominated screenwriter for All Quiet on the Western Front. And the untold story, I mean, there's articles about it, but I think it's underappreciated is the fact that she's a five-time world champion in off-road triathlon, like won three XTERRA world championships. And she used her prize money to keep the option alive on this project.

30:00I had no idea. It took a decade, you know, to get to the screen. And I think that that's super interesting because in my generation, like I'm your parents' age, I grew up in a time where you kind of had to pick, like, are you gonna be an artist? Are you gonna be a creative type? Or are you gonna be an athlete? and like never the twain did those two things meet. And I was talking to my daughter who's 19 the other day and sharing with her about Leslie and how I was gonna talk to you. And she's an artist and she's a painter and sculptor. And she's like, dad, it's not like that anymore. Is that true?

30:32Do you think there's a permissiveness around that in a way that might have been different when I was growing up? I think that boundaries have sort of slowly been disintegrating in a way. And I think that's due to people doing things that I think otherwise, or previously weren't considered possible or too much to do or excel at in one lifetime, right? Like I think, and that's sort of when I was jumping back in the pool was sort of one of my, not motivations, but something that I found interesting that I could possibly inspire people to sort of let go of those mental constructs of like, if I'm this, I have to only be this and only this forever.

31:26And it was fun challenging that in my own life. And then also it has been fun challenging that in my own life, you know, about just seeing what's possible. That's what all of this has sort of been about for me is just seeing what's possible. and then also hopefully inspiring other people or at least challenging their ideas about what's possible too, you know? Were you very conscious of that when you made that decision or is that something that kind of percolated up in the process of you getting back in the pool and exploring that? I think it happened in the process. I think that me getting back in the pool was just that I felt like I couldn't stay away from it anymore and had this burning desire to do it.

32:12And just like the whole thing was about the what ifs were gonna be too much for me in the future to not have a crack and to live with those regrets or what ifs of not having tried. And then when I started and things sort of started to develop and progress, I realized I sort of became a little bit more self-aware about what I was actually doing. And when I started to realize that I didn't have anyone to look to or a blueprint to follow about how it should be done, realizing that no one in swimming had really ever done that before. You know, people had sort of won or made the Olympics and then like won again 10 years later after having a bunch of time out, like, you know, an Anthony Irvin or these guys that have these super interesting stories, but they kind of stopped at a super high level or at the top and then kind of like took a bunch of years off and then came back, got back to the top.

33:16Whereas I don't think anyone sort of stopped young at like an age group level and then decides 10 years later to try and make that elite level. Yeah, there's no blueprint. There's no precedent. that nobody has ever done that before. I remember when Pablo Morales jumped back into the pool, like he's my mate, he's my buddy. I went to law school with him. We swam together at Stanford. He was two years older than me. He's an OG man. Watching him with no cap and goggles like. I know, no goggles, no cap, you know, old school, almost like Mark Spitz, you know, style. Winningest NCAA swimmer ever was sort of anointed to be this extraordinary Olympic champion.

34:00And I think he kind of over-trained. That was at 88, was it Seoul, where he didn't, shockingly, he didn't make the team. Even though going into that Olympic trials, he was favored to just, you know, take everything. Yeah. And hung it up, went to law school. We finished law school together. We studied for the bar together. And then he got back into the pool and then did what he did at the following Olympics and shocked everyone. And that was at the time, like super radical. And thinking back, like how old was he? He wasn't that old. He would have only been, what, early 20s still? Yeah, I think maybe 29, something like that.

34:36Yeah, which was old then. Super old, super old, because there was no money in the sport at that time. And so when you finished college, when you were 21, that was it. Nobody progressed beyond that. Now it's very different. And to your point, yes, Anthony Irvin, there's a few others, at the peak of their powers, took a break or stepped down and then made a comeback. But you stopped at 13. Yeah. And you were very successful as a 13-year-old, but it was unclear how far that was gonna go, right? It wasn't like you were on a Michael Phelps track, like you were winning state championships and you were probably like top in your age group, right?

35:17Yeah. What was it like? Yeah, and I suppose there's a lot of, you know, countless swimmers that are good young and then you never hear of them again, right? They may be good until they're 16 and then disappear or whatever. I mean, I was, yeah, like I was winning sort of national age group titles there for a few years in a row, particularly in butterfly and freestyle events. And then, but that, you know, and obviously that's an indicator of, I suppose, you know, some level of talent or feel for the water or whatever you wanna call it, but it's not necessarily a guarantee. You're gonna grow up to make your national team or go and compete at that level.

36:00So I suppose coming back to it, like it's funny thinking back now to kind of like the blind confidence that I had coming back into it when not really realizing, I think that the mountain I was undertaking, trying to climb. And a lot of people, you know, was sort of met with a lot of, are you sure? Even from my own mom and who swam for Australia. And so I understood like - Both your parents were swimmers at a high level. And I think she was sort of like, you know, you've built this life for yourself in the last 10 years. You sure you just wanna like put that all aside to go and stare at the black line for hours a day and put yourself through all that.

36:45Like it's grueling and I didn't really have any reservations about it. I just knew it was what I wanted to do. And I think it's important to point out for people that are watching or listening who don't have familiarity with the sport of swimming. Swimming is a sport that is just all about the grind. And it's very unusual for a swimmer to even take a couple months off, to take a year off. Are you kidding me? Like it's not something that people come back from when they do that. And it's also a sport where you spend just years and years and years developing those years between 13 and 20, whatever, right?

37:27But nobody has really popped in at 22. I missed all those foundational years. Yeah, you missed that. What's interesting about that is, yeah, so you didn't have any of that. You were still 13. Like usually the hardcore double workouts and all that kind of stuff starts around 14. like that's when it starts to get hard. And so you skipped that part, but you were able to pop in at, so it was like 22, 23 when you got back in the water? 22, I was starting to pop in every now and then USC. Like that's, I think when you were talking about. And Dave Salo. Dave with Dave Salo. But again, it was very much, it wasn't, I hadn't decided to come back yet.

38:05I was sort of like, I like to swim, you know, I'll just jump on the side here and, you know, and see how it feels. And I hadn't swum at that point and probably, I'd probably swum more than a couple hundred meters in like nine years or something, eight years. And so I started to do that then with them, when I was in town and I was still traveling a fair bit for work and then COVID happened and I - No touring. No touring, no nothing. Had already been simmering on this idea for quite a while, probably since Rio to be honest, cause I went down to Rio and watched friends of mine that I grew up competing with, competing in the Olympics and succeeding and doing all this.

38:48And it kind of, I saw my old coach down there and we had like this small little chat about it, about the idea of it that just sort of sat with me and sparked something that simmered for years until I couldn't take it anymore and had to start to change my life. It's not even like unfinished business. It's like business you haven't even begun. Yeah. You know?

39:18I own a bunch of spectacles. And I made the grave error the other day of donning a normal non-Roka pair on my indoor trainer when I was riding my bike indoors. And I got to tell you, it was a disaster. Every three to five seconds, I had to take my hands off the handlebars and push my glasses back up my nose until I got so frustrated, I just tossed them aside. This is the dilemma of every active but optically impaired person I know. And as someone who has relied upon eyewear every single day since I was five years old, it is also the source of endless aggravation. Thankfully, now eradicated thanks to Broca, the stylish performance eyewear company founded by two former Stanford swimming teammates of mine who have gifted everyone like me and quite frankly, the world with their fashionable line of super lightweight prescription glasses and sunglasses with patented no-slip nose and temple pads that are just impervious to sweat.

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40:51Didn't you also perform for the queen at Buckingham Palace at the Commonwealth Games? Yeah. The most recent Commonwealth Games, right? It was for - You had to be there and see all the athletes and there was something about that as well. Yeah, it was the 2018 Commonwealth Games torch lighting. And the 2018 games were on the Gold Coast here where we are, which is where I grew up. And I think because of that, being from the Gold Coast, they had me go over and perform and sung like, I still call Australia home and did all that in the grounds of the Buckingham Palace and got to meet the queen and do all that.

41:31And I think, and then four years later, I was competing in the next one as a swimmer. And at that time in 2018 was, yeah, hadn't even really considered the idea of swimming or really jumping back into it. So it's kind of wild when I was getting up on the blocks four years later, having known four years ago, I was doing what I was doing. That's so wild. But there must've been this sense when you're performing there as a singer songwriter thinking, yeah, but I'm an athlete too. Like nobody's seeing me as an athlete. Yeah, and no one knows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one knows that I can do this and that, yeah.

42:11And that was, I think that was a little bit part of it too. It was almost like a thirst to prove myself, knowing that it's almost like you can say you can do all this and that as much as you want. You can say, oh yeah, I could have been this, or I could, you know, people do that all the time. But I really wanted to, I think, prove to myself I was that, I just wanted to see. You were for real about it. Yeah, that I was real about it. Because I think people, I knew people were kind of like, yeah, but. Right, well, even Dave Salo, didn't he say like, yeah, he told, didn't he tell Brett Hawk, like, yeah, this isn't gonna work out.

42:46Yeah, yeah, Dave Salo told him, David Marsh told him that. Oh, Marsh, yeah. Which, yeah. These guys are like, for people who don't know, like these are the legend coaches in the sport, at least in the States. And David sort of since, David Marsh sort of has since said, or at least even a couple months after that, he sort of said, no, this is the second time in my life I've been proved wrong or that my judgment wasn't correct. Or, and I don't think it's that he thought that. I'm not sure. It was like, he'd said it was way back, but he said, I think it was maybe about a swimmer that he didn't think would succeed in NCAAs or something that ended up being quite good.

43:25and I remember Brett, maybe. Brett took me down. This was still very early. I'd only been swimming for a couple months. Took me down to do some sort of technical stuff with David Marsh down in San Diego. And I think it was more that David, I think had just said to Brett, are you sure this, I think he should just stick to what he's doing. He's had too much time out. This ship's kind of sailed. you know, it's gonna take, it's not gonna be possible to get to, you know, where I guess this kid wants to go. Right, and in fairness, the first time you jumped into a meet, you swam like a 5 ,100 yard fly, right?

44:10Yeah, and that was like before I trained or anything, it was sort of like when I was doing those little one-off sessions at USC and they sort of said, well, there's this little meet, the invitational coming up. And I, at that time was just like, yeah, I'll get in and have a go. And I was so unfit and swam horribly like. Yeah, 51, I mean, 51 would be good at a master's meet, but that's not getting you anywhere. Not as like a 22 or 23 year old. And so that was months prior to COVID and all that when I, it was sort of like the first time I'd raced at anything of the sort in a long time. It was almost just a bit of fun at that point.

44:55But I remember sitting with Dave Salo actually going, I wanna go 51 in the 100 long course meter fly. And he kind of just, yeah, I could see him smoking going, yeah, you understand what that takes, you know? And last year I did it. So yeah, it's just like wild to think back actually sitting here with you. I don't often do that retrospect. It's important to reflect back on that. I mean, I think, you know, it all happened pretty quickly also, not without its lumps. And 51 long course is like 51-0, right? Or 51-1? One seven. Yeah, I mean, that's fucking legit, dude. Like, and what's exciting is that to the earlier point of you in this unprecedented way, jumping into the pool at a later age, and having missed that decade of the grind, most of the swimmers at the highest level who all of them endured that decade of grind are now trying to hang on like and stay enthusiastic about something that's just so hard to maintain long-term because you have to live this monastic lifestyle.

46:02And when you're 24 or whatever, you pretty much know you're gonna have some gains you put in the extra effort. There's always improvement to be had, but you're not really gonna get a massive performance leap. Like you pretty much know kind of where you are in the pecking order, but for you, there are no rules. Like the potential is, you know, the sky's the limit in terms of like what you're now capable of. And I know you're coming off a huge block this past year and you're about to, you know, compete and you're at the beginning of your taper. And that's gotta be way more exciting for somebody like you than even for Emma, your girlfriend, who's been in it for a long time.

46:41I'm like, they have a pretty good idea of probably where they're gonna end up. And for you, I think that's just totally unwritten. It's one of the mental advantages that I think I have is that there's so much unknown still for me in the sport. And that sort of just keeps me going because I go, I just don't know where I can get to. Maybe I've some of my fastest swims. I don't know if I have, that is what it is, right? You fulfilled that commitment that you made to yourself. I've made that to myself and I, you know, wanted to represent Australia and I wanted to get that, you know, we call it our dolphin number, which is basically the Australian swim team are called the dolphins and everyone that gets selected to compete gets a number.

47:29And so there's been, I'm number 838. So there's been 838 swimmers compete for Australia in the history of, I think it's been since 1901 or something like that. And so that's something really sort of monumental and special for an Australian swimmer to get their number. And I got that last year when I went to the Comm Games and my mom had one. And so just sort of be able to have that together. And that's something that having those little things is sort of makes me feel like no matter what happens in the future, like I've sort of have these things to show for what I've sort of committed to and what I wanted to prove to myself, which in a way I've done part of that already.

48:11I still feel like I have a lot more I wanna do, but I'm really glad that I've been able to sort of uncover that or at least prove to myself that I could kind of do what I suspected I might be able to with the right work and stimulus and stuff. I wanna dig a little bit more into that in a minute, but here we are spring 2023. What's the big meet? I mean, by the time this goes up, that meet will have passed, but talk about like kind of where you're at now and how you're thinking about next year and Paris and the Olympics. Yeah, well, I guess I'm almost three years into a four year journey that I embarked on.

48:55I started having only the plan to swim for four years. Anything beyond that is still unknown to me. I don't know what I wanna do or how I feel after Paris, either the trials or the Olympics or whatever, like kind of depends on how I go and how I feel then. Yeah, but the whole plan is to be ready for 2024. So everything I'm doing is sort of with that insight. There's our trials coming up in a few weeks for the world championships this year. So that's sort of the next major team to qualify for in the between now and the Olympics. So I'll do my best to get on that one. And everything else is kind of leading up to about 13, 14 months from now.

49:44So this is still like a build year. Next year is the real year where, you know the rubber meets the road. Pretty much. And the super grind starts, but you've already made a Commonwealth team. You defied expectations. You got, so for people that don't know in order to go to the Olympics, you have to get first or second at your trials. Yep. And third place. And under our qualifying time. So if you're second and you don't know the time, you're probably not going. Right, that's not gonna be a factor though. But often for at least for the strokes, the 100 meter strokes, they usually wanna take two per event for the relays and there's a lot of relays now with the mixed, the mixed men's and women's relays and all that.

50:27So they want, I think they want to, they'll want two men for a hundred fly, buy two month 400 breast, et cetera. Right, so even if you get third, there's still a chance you could end up on a relay or as an alternate, no. Third's not going. Third and you're out. Yeah, third's not going. Okay, I just didn't know if it was the same. Even if you're under the qualifying time, which the Australian qualifying times are significantly faster than the FINA ACOT times. The Australian qualifying times, they figure out based on what made last year's final at Worlds. So like the eighth time. So basically they're picking, they're only taking you if they feel that you can make sort of the international final or whatever, which is, you know, it's probably, aside from, I suppose, the USA, it's probably the hardest swimming team in the world to get on.

51:16Yeah, that's the debate we can have. The Aussie versus US. Aussie versus US, that'll always be. Legendary, yeah, rivals. So you got, so you're kind of sitting in this third place position. You got third at your trials last year. You almost went to the world championships though, because there was something about somebody who was gonna not participate in that event, but then he changed his mind. Yeah, he ended up doing it. So you ended up on the Commonwealth team where you got fifth, but you're in the mix, I guess is the point that I'm making, but there's no guarantees either way. There's a lot of fast guys.

51:49No, I'm sort of on the precipice of, or the cusp of qualification for, at least from my events, probably sitting right on the cusp of them. So, there's definitely no guarantees. And do you feel that you have a leg up in terms of how you manage stress and pressure because of the things that you've done as an entertainer where you've put yourself in kind of high stress situations and you have like a little bit of experience that maybe allows you to handle that stuff with more calm and grace? Probably. Yeah. Yeah, I tend to find I can and do thrive in high pressure situations.

52:41Having, as you say, the having done many different kinds of things that, and been in many different kinds of, I suppose, those high pressure situations, or at least doing things with a lot of eyeballs on you. Being up on stage, doing all that. Being up on stage in front of a lot of people, being on TV shows and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I've found that coming back into the sport, like I wasn't, I was, part of me had that fear and nerve based around just being new and not having the experience and the race experience and confidence, knowing that when I did get up on the blocks, like people would be watching.

53:24Even at like local meets and stuff, when I first came back, I just always felt like eyeballs on me and stuff. Now it's, I think I've been here long enough where it's a little less, feel like a little less scrutinized, but I was definitely prepared for that just through the life experience that I've had. Vice versa, do you feel that your career as a young swimmer when you were 13 and having to be in a high stress situation, even as a young person helped you when you started getting up on stages? Cause I feel like I'm here, I gave this speech the other day and I had to do it in front of a lot of people.

54:00And even though it's been many years since I was a swimmer, like it is, it does, it felt like finals. It felt like, you know, you get, you're a little nervous, but it's that excitement. I know what this is like. I wanna perform well, et cetera. Like there's a lot of overlap, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that, oh, it taught me a ton as a kid, even just carrying that into my life as an artist and a musician beyond my swing as a young kid was prepared me for, well, one taught me the correlation between sort of the what you put in is what you get out sort of mindset, the work equals success or work at least equals improvement.

54:42But it's different in the creative arts. You can't grind a song out. Like it's not like doing a hard set. Like you gotta be in a place of allowing and almost surrender, right? To like let that come in, which is antithetical to the mindset of the swimmer. Who's like, if I push hard, I know I will have these gains. Yeah, yeah. I find that there's, I find that there are similarities though, at least from my experience, trying to improve as a guitarist or trying to improve as a vocalist to say go on - The technical stuff. To go on to do theater, right? Like to do things like that. Things where the reps pay off.

55:22Yeah, like where you sort of push, push, push for a period of time so that you can let it sort of happen when it's supposed to happen so that the second nature thing can happen. Right, when you're racing at your peak, you're not using your brain. You rehearsed it. So you can think, think, think, think, think so that you can not think when you don't have to. And I think that's the same thing for, at least for performing or playing a song, say it's something difficult that you've been wanting to learn. I was...

56:24I don't know if I said this at one point, Right, but you know the work that you put in. Yeah, and that's, I think that's what makes it so beautiful is what you put in and sort of grinding through that time to get that feeling and that reward. Yeah, the one thing you gotta figure out though, dude, you gotta figure out how to go faster at finals. I know. I know it's like, that's a little bit of a struggle for you. That's funny you say that actually, you've done your research. You're good at freelance, dude, but you gotta be ready for the big show. Yeah, and that's something that's funny. My coach tells me that all the time.

56:57And that's something I'm working on is I'm good when I'm relaxed. I'll get up in the heat and go, okay, I can, at least nationally, like I know I can get up and go eight out of 10 and make the final. And often that swim will be faster than the one where I'm getting in and just trying to tear it. And it's funny swimming in that way as that counterintuitive where it's more effort it doesn't always mean faster. Right, I mean, that's a really important perspective, but I would feel that you would be somebody who would understand that better because I'm sure when you're performing music in front of a lot of people, it's gonna be better when you're relaxed.

57:39Yeah, yeah. If you're trying to force it or you're tensed up, it's gonna be a stiff performance, right? Yeah, and I think that's just something I'm learning with experience, at least in the pool, realizing that it is that way. But I think it's gonna come with more, I'm getting up having swum say, I don't know how many hundreds fly I've done in a race environment, maybe 40 or 50, I'm not sure. Getting up against guys who've done hundreds of them. I'm just sort of trying to get more of that under my belt so I can, but yeah, that is something I'm working on. But the mindset has to be, these guys don't know.

58:20Like you're the question mark, you know? And that's like a superpower. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you pretty much know what these other guys are gonna, you know the range that they're gonna be in, but all bets are off when you get up on the blocks. Yeah, yeah. Because it's all so new. Absolutely, and I think that's the way it was coming into last year. Like my time at least coming into the trials last year it was really not anywhere near like. You dropped from like a 54 to a 51, right? In about... A year, was it? Yeah, in about 18 months, I think, yeah. I mean, that's like in a 100 meter, I mean, that's like an astonishing improvement for that period of time.

59:07But I think going into the last two trials was like 52.8 or something was as quick as I'd been. and I knew I'd have to go 51 on the team. And when I did that in the heat, I kind of showed myself I was ready to go there, but this year I have to make an even bigger drop, so. What was that like dropping back in, moving back here, getting back into swimming with, you know, jumping into the pool with an elite squad of guys and gals? Did they welcome you back or was there a lot of sort of suspicion? like what are you playing at? Like, come on, man. I think there was some of that. And some of the people who I'm now friends with sort of said that they just naturally had those thoughts.

59:50I think when I first came back, just they didn't know me. They didn't know really what I was doing, what my plan was. So I think some people kind of, at least a lot of people in the public eye and stuff, thought it was like some kind of publicity stunt or something. Yeah, this is for the gram. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like swimming, there's not worth it for the gram bike. It takes way too much. Well, that's the thing. So you can just like pull it together in a couple of days. Yeah. I remember like - But I was welcomed. I was, I was ultimately welcomed. Well, now you swam at 51, so it's legit. But at first I would imagine there was a little bit of a acclimation period.

1:00:32Yeah, when I first came back, like I'd obviously dropped, I'd obviously gotten to a decent level in a short period of time, but it's not necessarily enough to like have people say like, you belong here, you know? Yeah, this is different than just, you know, photos of you on Instagram with your shirt off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And in fairness, like when I first got introduced to you and I was like checking, I was like, I don't know, man, I don't know about this. But like when I look at your social media or like if someone is to Google you, it's just rife with a bunch of paparazzi bullshit.

1:01:05You dated like, you know, some well-known women. And it's really kind of all about that. And it's easy to project or have a judgment about who you are or what's important to you based upon that. And then when I met you and had breakfast with you the other day, I was like, oh, this is nothing like, like this guy in reality is nothing like, I imagine based upon that kind of public persona or image, like you're very grounded, you know, conscious, kind, pretty chilled out dude. Thanks. Thank you. You know? So it's not surprising that you would get, you know, some of that. Is it from your experience that a lot of people that at least have been through that aren't that way or?

1:01:47Well, I think - Because you and I think both probably know a lot of people who have sort of had - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Been shrouded in that world or that - I mean, I think I'm in a unique position to talk to you because I live in Los Angeles and I know a lot of the people that you've worked with. You know, I understand that culture, but I also have the swimming background. Like, you know, I can like, I have direct experience with both of those worlds. And I would say that in general, and this is no mystery, like somebody who experiences that level of fame and attention at a young age, they don't, you know, that has a tendency to really impair your value system.

1:02:23Yeah. And it's intoxicating. And now that you say that, honestly, like a lot of the people that I, or at least a few of the people that I do know or have been introduced to that, that had that, do have a sort of warped perspective. And I think in fairness from my, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you look like somebody who flirted with that, you know, it could have gone the other way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you were living a pretty fast lifestyle. Yeah, absolutely. And to, I reckon late teens, even early twenties, there were moments I was caught up, like I didn't know which way it was going. I think my, and my parents sort of worst nightmares of like, you know, young sort of pop star kid, like going off the rails was like coming true for them.

1:03:14Yeah, I mean, it comes true for most people in your situation. It's the rare individual that avoids that. Fortunately. For every Justin Timberlake, there's, you know, a hundred other, you know, heroin addicts. Yeah, you look at guys like, I mean, Aaron Carter comes to mind. Sure. So there's just so many horror stories in that sense. And that was, I was just fortunate to, I think I owe a lot of it to my family, to my parents, cause I was at least still close enough to them where I really cared what they thought. And when they expressed that they felt like I was losing touch a little bit, they'd bring me back to earth.

1:03:56So maybe paint like a picture of that moment. You're going to clubs, you're dating women that are very well known. You have paparazzi following you around. You're getting, there's a lot of stuff going on, man. A lot of temptation, it's Hollywood. You just have access to it, to way more than you should at that age and way more than other kids. Like other kids. This is like you're like 19, right? Yeah, yeah. Younger, you know, 17, 18 start to be able to, you know. And I was probably 16 when I started going out there. So you just, you know, all of a sudden that age seeing - Doors are swinging open.

1:04:44It can, as you say, be intoxicating. How did you kind of avoid the like drugs aspect of the whole thing? I didn't. You didn't? Yeah. And that's not something I talk about much, but like it's definitely present for, and for years it was something that is just a part of being there, everyone's doing it, you're going out. It's fun for at the beginning, right? And then when it gets too much and you see it start to sort of affect your personal life or affect your career. Like I was still actively working and doing all that stuff the whole time. I was still playing music, still doing gigs, doing all this stuff.

1:05:31I mean, I was changing. I definitely had a lot of creative and musical change from being sort of a young pop artist to wanting to be a sort of more of a singer songwriter or play different, at least become a musician. I was sort of like, I was very conscious of it throughout that time, like wanting to set myself up as a musician. And, you know, I wasn't lost, that stuff wasn't lost on me. I sort of never really disregarded my career or anything like that, but you get caught up for sure. And it's, you know, what I was sort of doing then was, and the lifestyle I was living then even five years ago, as a 21 year old, as a far cry from where I'm at now.

1:06:15I'm going to, I'm waking up when I was going to sleep. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's almost like you've already had a midlife crisis at 20 or whatever, you know, in the biopic of your life, like that opening scene is you like waking up in some weird house after a banger of a party and thinking, man, I know where this is heading and I have this other thing. Almost like returning to swimming was almost a defense mechanism to save your life. Is that an extreme, that maybe I'm contextualizing it. I just got goosebumps because I was about to say that in a different way. Yeah, so explain that.

1:06:57Swimming was like the sobering thought within the haze of the life I was living. And was the thing that pulled me out of, even sometimes like in moments, like when you're out, I'm going, it's one or 2 AM, everyone's still going. I remember that I wanna do this thing in the future. So I can't like trash my body like this anymore. I have to like start, I have to start pulling myself away from these scenarios in this lifestyle. And I remember there were many nights sort of before I really put my foot down on myself. that I would have those moments. And I think if I didn't have swimming or I didn't have the desire to do that again, like I wouldn't have had anything holding me back from just sinking, just going full force into that lifestyle because there would be nothing else that I would have had, nothing else I would have known.

1:08:01So yeah, in a way, as you say, I think it did save my life, God. I don't know what would have happened or where I would have gone beyond that. It was the only thing that I think, aside from my family, like drew me out of it. Yeah. And I'm so glad it did, because like now, and I'm sure you can relate to this, obviously, probably not to the sort of extreme perhaps that you're where your journey took you, but now I just am so much more consistently happy on a day-to-day basis. you know maybe the highs the highs aren't as high and maybe the lows aren't as low but like I would take this over that any day I think and I think even in the future going back into music like I'd be very cautious about how I did it and and and for what reasons you know I'd probably want to stay based here I'd go maybe go go back and forth to the states but I don't know if I think I'd probably want to base myself in Australia and just do things on my own terms and and live a healthy life and have a healthy approach to being an artist as opposed to the kind of destructive artist approach.

1:09:11Yeah, the trope, the cliche, you know what I mean? And, you know, but when you're in it, like, yeah like short of swimming, it is so, it's gotta be so exciting. Doors are swinging open, you're meeting all these people you never thought you would meet, you know, like you just have this sort of access and to say, you know what, I did that. I don't feel like myself, it's one thing for, like even if a normal person, like a, I don't know, like you call them sparkies here, like a sparky, right? Like an electrician who's like, you know what? Like I was good when I was 13, I'm gonna pop in again. Or somebody who's just living a normal life with a normal job and maybe is a little unfulfilled and thinks, you know what?

1:09:53I'm gonna see if I have some more athletic potential inside of me, that would be an extraordinary story. but the level of conviction and discipline that would be required to step away from that super, like, yeah, the peaks are so high, right? Yeah. And say, not only am I gonna walk away from that, at least temporarily, like I'm gonna go do this other thing that means I'm gonna be exhausted all the time. I'm gonna be staring at this black line. There's no guarantees of anything. This is certainly not like a strategic career move to like make money or any, you know, like there's a level of insanity to the whole thing.

1:10:30Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'd even like, I wasn't coming back into it like even financially, like I wasn't really set up coming back into swimming. Like I'd kind of, I'd had a few like lean years and was kind of in a place where I, it wasn't like sort of like, I'd probably made some bad financial decisions and had some poor management on that side of things. And, you know, so it wasn't, that wasn't, it wasn't like I was going into it going, I've got all this cash and I'm gonna, you know, I'm good. I'm sure people think that that's the case. Like, oh, you're with this person and you have this and that, so you must be living in a mansion and have a private driver and like.

1:11:14Yeah, but for me, like the reality for me at that, in that moment, just based on the way things had gone and just, I think, miseducation young about money and just have poor sort of financial management and things for a few years. Like I was in a place where I wasn't sort of like, yeah, if I go and swim, I can for sure support myself for the next four to six years and whatever, right? Like it was sort of like, I was sort of going into it. I didn't have that kind of security necessarily going into it. And it's funny because yeah, people would sort of think, well, if you go and do that, it's funny the way it's worked out because coming back into swimming has sort of had actually almost opened up more opportunities for me outside of swimming.

1:12:14Partially just because I think people thought it was interesting and wanted to be part of it. But beginning that, like I didn't know or think that I'd be able to make any money through at least for years. You know, I just thought I'd be sort of staring at the black line by myself and have no one care about it or just think I was nuts for at least, I was prepared for that to be the reality for at least like, you know, two to three years. I also didn't think I'd progress as quickly as I did too. So you're surprised that - I was prepared for like, I was prepared to be shit for like at least two years before like I was anywhere near where I wanted to be.

1:12:54But the willingness to make that deal, like that's super interesting.

1:13:04This idea of being out of alignment with like your higher, better self or this vision or this sense of like who you are and how you wanted to like show up in the world, being tweaked and kind of upside down while you're in Los Angeles. Yeah. And having enough self-awareness, conviction and courage to correct that and now be in this place where you like who you are, you feel good about what you're doing. Yeah. I think is something that everybody on some level can relate to. Like, I think that there is a more self-actualized, authentic version of ourselves within all of us. Yeah. And every day we're kind of subconsciously wondering how in alignment we are with that person that we wish we were or whatever, you know what I mean?

1:13:54Yeah. And that never ends until we die. I've certainly gone through my version of that and I'm not perfect in that regard, but to have that kind of awareness as a young person and to correct that, I think is exemplary and also puts you in a position to speak to like that subject in general. Like, are we really thinking about what we're doing? Like, what is our intention and how do our actions line up with like the aspirational version of ourself? Or what is that dormant dream within all of us that maybe we're ignoring or repressing? Yeah. Because life is fucking hard and we're busy and like just trying to put food on the table is, you know, big enough challenge for most people.

1:14:39It's so easy to get stuck in, and I'm not saying everyone should just go and quit their jobs and become a movie director or whatever, but like it's so easy to totally ignore it in the quest for a steady salary or this or that. But when you ignore it, you get these little knocks. Yeah. Hey buddy. Yeah. How are you doing in there? Yeah, you good. Remember me? I'm over here. I'm still here if you wanna have a chat. And it's often like the kid in you, right? Like the child in you, the one that follows instincts and follows impulses and listens to himself. Rediscovering that I think is important. Yeah, it's something beyond the mind and logic that is childlike and uncorrupted by the difficulties of life that still kind of lives as this seedling inside of us.

1:15:43It's a good way of articulating it. And I think, looking at your career and your life, the rear view is always 20-20, right? Like when you look backwards, it all makes perfect sense. And when I see your career and the kind of art that you were interested in cultivating and the way that you expressed yourself as an artist, the theme of swimming is like undeniable. Like it's all about water. You know, like even the Prince Neptune thing. It's like, it's all about like water and the ocean and you know, your band was called the Tide. Like it's all like, of course, of course this guy was gonna find his way back to the pool.

1:16:18Yeah, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy kind of. Yeah. Self-fulfilling prophecy that was, yeah, as you said, a ticking clock. Like looking back on it now, it all makes sense, but there was a subconscious, you know, this little subconscious murmur in there the whole time that was just drawing me back to where I felt most at home or whatever.

1:16:40But talking about that alignment with yourself, I now truly sort of feel that way. And I think for a few years, I didn't feel that way. And I'm so happy I followed it because I never thought I'd be able to just sort of sit around and say, I'm really, even in the midst of grueling training and doing all that stuff, I feel like it satisfies me. I can sit down in my day and go, yeah, I'm at peace with myself and I'm as happy as I've ever been. And I feel like I'm on the path I'm supposed to be on. Sure, it took me a little while to find it. And I think now I just have learned things, even if I stopped tomorrow and went back to playing music full time, I feel like I'd be the kind of person I'd wanna be going back into playing music full-time.

1:17:36I think I'd have the right approach. And I think swimming teachers has taught me that already. Yeah, that's cool. I think that that's sort of the new cool way to be a performer also. Yeah, like an athlete artist. Well, yeah, it was like, we were talking before the podcast and I was asking you if you knew Mike Posner, like he's sort of on a similar thing. like, hey man, I did that other thing. Like, you know, I took a pill in Ibiza. Like I know that story and you know, I don't wanna live that way anymore. And now I wanna walk across America and climb Everest and take people on adventures. And yes, I'm still cranking out songs and my songs fucking rule, but I don't have to be that cliche of what you think a performer's life looks like.

1:18:20Yeah, that's why I admire Jack Johnson so much as well. And why even when I was in LA, I was like, why aren't I doing this the way Jack does it? You know, he's - Or Donovan Frankenrider. Or Donovan, yeah, who I've had the chance to - You've played with him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've met him a couple times. Had the chance to play with and chat to and the guys have sort of just forged their own path outside of, like, I don't know if Jack's been to the Grammys from memory, like he's never there. Like, and whether that is by choice, I don't know, but - Have you met him? Jack I've met a couple of times only briefly, but just watching the way he does his thing, I'm sure he had so many opportunities to go other directions and he's always just stayed on his own path.

1:19:15I live in Hawaii, I like to surf. Sure, he was a professional surfer and he has an accident that sort of redirected him into I suppose creative, more creative path, which is obviously worked out the way it has for him and for the benefit of all of us who like his music. But I just admire guys like that and feel like now I have the sort of confidence and self, I have the internal compass to hopefully keep that head like as when I do go back to it. So that's what a valuable lesson to learn as a young person. Like maybe you had to have those peak experiences to grapple with that and come to terms with it, but to be able to have clarity on that at your age creates a foundation for your success and your happiness as you move forward.

1:20:09Yeah, yeah. And I feel so grateful for that because I know it just as easily could have happened when I was 45 instead of 25. And I'm just like it's - Or never. Or never, yeah. I'm so grateful that it has happened now. And maybe I'll have more of them in the future. Like I might, I don't know what kind of cycles I'll go through as I get older and what more I'll learn. But I feel like I've been able to take a lot from my life experience so far, right? Which is good. You reshared a tweet the other day. Somebody had tweeted like, hey, remember that kid, Cody that sang songs? Like this is what he looks like now.

1:20:48And he's going for the Olympics it's a picture of you with your cap and you're like, you're climbing out of the pool or something like that. And you're looking super jacked and you reshared it. And you're like, yeah, that's what I'm doing. I don't remember, but it was sort of like a funny thing. And I was thinking about that because there's probably a lot of people out there who were fans of your music or maybe were at a time and then haven't thought about you. And then suddenly they see this and they're like, what the hell is this? I see that on, especially on Twitter. I see that because I feel like, I don't know why Twitter communities is that way, but I'll see that on Twitter a fair bit, whereas somebody that won't have seen or heard from me since, you know, from a moment, say eight years ago or whatever, and they see that I'm now doing this and they kind of think it's some kind of weird joke.

1:21:34Right, or it's just sort of a mind exploder, right? Like, because it's so orthogonal to how people think of you. And I think the reason I bring that up is, I think there can be a sense in the world publicly that all of this kind of happened with ease or overnight and without an appropriate level of appreciation for the courage of making that kind of decision and the amount of work that you have to put into it. And I think what happens is that a narrative gets crafted that you're just, you're this unbelievably gifted person. It's all easy. You can just write these songs and then you can just go over to the pool and these things happen.

1:22:16and it makes you unrelatable, like you're this outlier. Like that's cool and I can be inspired by that, but it's not aspirational because I'm not like that. And I was listening to your conversation with Brett Hawk and he was framing it in an interesting way to disabuse people of that idea and to instead suggest this idea that I love and that I believe in, which is that we all are sitting on top of mountains of untapped potential. And the differentiator with you, of course you have talents that certain, we all have - Everybody does that. Levels of talents and different things. You recognize your talents, you put the work in to manifest them.

1:23:00But Brett said that what people should understand is that you understand your potential and you know how to continually tap into that well and go back to it. It's a renewable resource as opposed to the person who maybe taps into it once and does something and says, well, yeah, but I'm out of gas now. Like that was my thing and now I'm done. Whereas you're like, no, it's there, it's always there. Like, how do you dip your toe into that current and continue to nourish yourself with this understanding that there's always more potential to be mined. Yeah, tapping that source. So how do you think about that consciously?

1:23:39Does that resonate with you or how does that land? And I think it's just, I think cultivating the resilience not to get discouraged by failure as well. I think there was a moment, my first, I wasn't, as you say, when you think people think it happened overnight or whatever, like I wasn't, I was no good when I first got back in the pool. you know it wasn't like i just started popping all these good times and training doing all this stuff it was like my first race back was terrible it was absolutely terrible and i was so afraid to do it as well like um brett put me in some time trial down with david marsh's group was i'd probably only been swimming i'd probably been training for about three months um at that point and and And certainly not, hadn't built enough to do a good 200 freestyle, but he put me in a 200 free.

1:24:39And yeah, that event doesn't lie. I woke up, yeah, I know, yeah. And he'd been putting, doing, giving me all the sprint training and doing all this. But at the time he thought that I'd be a 200 swimmer. And so he was trying to start training me in that way and put me in this 200 long before I was ready to do it. And I had so much anxiety about it. Like I woke up the morning of and in this like full body rash just from, I've never had any kind of physical manifestation of stress or anxiety before in my life. And I've got this full body rash. I'm wondering what it is. I take myself to the urgent care and I'm trying to figure it out.

1:25:16And eventually I can kind of calm myself down and I go and do the race that night and it's just horrible. And I remember coming back that night and sort of thinking maybe this isn't for me. What am I am over my own head? Like, is this, you have that moment of - You're drinking your own Kool-Aid. Yeah, yeah. Was I delirious in thinking that this was possible for me? And it's just, is this gonna be too hard? And I was so frustrated that night. I think I maxed out on pushups at like midnight and then went to sleep. Just cause I had all this like pent up, like frustration and anger in me and woke up the next day, not sure if I was gonna keep going.

1:26:03And then I just looked in the mirror and thought, you know what, I've only given it three months. Let's give it six. And then after six months, if I'm still feeling this way, if I haven't seen anything else, if I haven't seen any improvement or anything, I think you gotta give it six to. And then at six months, or yeah, it was about two and a half months later, I got my first qualifying time to go and compete at Australian Olympic trials. And that was, so that was my first win. And then it started to snowball from there. I'm so glad I saw those little two month, that two, three month period through.

1:26:37Is part of that, like that panic attack response, a function of the fact that you know, as someone who is a public figure, that whatever you do in the pool is gonna get talked about in a way that isn't gonna get talked about if you were just an average person, right? Oh, for sure, yeah. I mean, I wish swim swim didn't. External factors of just who you are that make it different. Yeah, yeah, and knowing that, you know, I didn't even think about this when I first, when I went and did that little USC time trial where I went 51 short course yards, like swim swim, I did some article about it. And I'm like, I wish they did it.

1:27:13Do they trash it on you? Because I don't want that to be there. No, not really. Not my guy, Mel, though. No, it wasn't trashing. because I think at that point, people just, people didn't really know that I was, you know, swimming or wanted to swim seriously. So, just curious that you would even jump into a pool. I think people just thought like, oh, that's kind of interesting. And it's actually not that bad for someone that, you know. Yeah, if you haven't been training at all and you can jump in and pop off a 51, like good on you. Like if you go in and see, you know, Justin Bieber going, just do like some random track and field meet and go like, you know, 11 for like a hundred.

1:27:51I know, this is the thing. You'd be like, what the hell? When I'm describing other people, like I've talked to my wife and a couple of, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna go talk to this guy, Cody, you know, and if they haven't heard of you or don't know who you are, I'm like, just imagine. It's like if Justin Bieber was also an Olympic athlete or Shawn Mendes or somebody like that, you know? I suppose so, yeah, yeah. if Sean all of a sudden was like on the Olympic hockey team or something. I don't know. Not that I've made the Olympics. One of the other things that you talked about with Brett was this tall poppy thing, like this very specific Aussie thing where we want, we love our underdogs.

1:28:34We want our underdogs to win, but then when they win, the relationship shifts a little bit and it's like, don't get too big buddy. You know, we're quick to cut you down. And I was with - Don't win again. I was with, yeah. Don't win again. Yeah. Don't win three times. I think it's heightened in Australia, but it's not unique to Australia. I think it's a, there's something human about that. And I was with Ned Brockman the other day who ran across Australia and is very famous for his mullet. And what's interesting about the mullet that he rocks is that on the one hand, it's authentically who he is.

1:29:10is this kid who grew up on a farm and Sparky was an apprentice to become an electrician, like kind of just a bloke, like a blue collar guy and that's who he is. But the other piece of it, I think is very intentional. Like he maintains it because he understands that tall poppy phenomenon. Like he wants to make sure everybody understands who he is and that he's true to kind of his roots. Yeah, yeah. So that people are able to kind of meet him where he's at and embrace him. but you coming in with everything that happened in LA. I kind of grew up away from all that. Yeah, I grew up away from the tall poppy thing.

1:29:47Like I come home once a year. You're here and you're in it, right? Like does that occupy, like you contend with that or? Yes and no. I think, I definitely think that, well, you know living in LA, like people are a little bit more used to just people wearing whatever. You kind of don't really look twice if, you know, or someone's wearing like silver pants or something. You know what I mean? But like here you'd, at least in the culture in Australia, like you'd kind of go, so that's different. I've seen Justin Bieber's car. Yeah. It's like that reflective metallic. Like a chrome wrapped like Audi R8 or something.

1:30:28Whereas here people are like, what the hell? I know. What are you doing? You wanker or whatever, you know? But like, so yeah, it's certainly become more conscious just over since moving back, but I feel like I kind of almost needed a bit of that in my life, you know, over there it can. Right, yeah, actually it was healthy for you. It was healthy for me to have that at that point. So, and I think now, yeah, I've had just enough of a dose of it to sort of just level me out a little bit. But you're still an underdog. Yeah, yeah. Which is cool. Which is cool. Yeah. I'd like to always stay the underdog.

1:31:06Yeah. And trying to hold on to the top. Yeah. So you also happen to live with, you cohabitate with your girlfriend, Emma, who just so happens to also be like the most decorated Australian Olympian, like she's for real. So how has like her experience, and obviously she's somebody who understands mindset, the champion mindset, like how to achieve goals, all of that. Like what have you learned from her experience that's allowed you to kind of compress your learning curve to getting to where you wanna be? Yeah, being, I guess being with her and spending so much time with her. Well, we first met when she was already in the squad that I joined when I came back.

1:31:55So we met then and we always had a sort of a connection and a magnetism to each other. Something we didn't address until after her Olympic feat and she ended up being away for another sort of six months after that and it wasn't until she came back that we sort of connected and got together. But it was always there from when we first met. And I think in a good partner, you recognize a lot of qualities that you yourself, I think either would like to possess or already possess. And I think we sort of had that with each other. We recognized that we had sort of similar approaches to life and what we do.

1:32:45And at the same time, I just saw that, I saw the way she handled everything she's doing. And when we first met, like she hadn't yet done what she did last year or in 2021 in Tokyo. but I could see that it was gonna happen just by the way she approached each day. And sort of since, I guess, being in a relationship with her now and living with her now, I'm inspired by the way she, she's probably the most level-headed athlete of that caliber that I've ever come across. And how do you account for that? Like, how does she maintain that? She's extremely, one extremely, extremely close to her family, extremely grounded and two, I think is never satisfied.

1:33:37Like it's funny when she, just to see her perspective on what she's done, like she doesn't even know, like you ask her how many Olympic medals she's won. Like she probably knows now that she's heard a lot of other people say it, but I think when she did it, she didn't really realize. Are they in the house here somewhere? No, they're not here. Yeah, she's got a few other things around, but even last year, like she became the most decorated Commonwealth athlete of all time. Like not even Australian or just of anyone. And then just being Australian, and she finished the games. I mean, you're like, it's like Michael Jordan status here.

1:34:12I think that's true. That I'm pretty sure that's the stat, but she finished the game and she didn't know that, you know, She just sort of has this really interesting approach to the sport that doesn't sort of involve thinking about accolades or - Intrinsically motivated as opposed to extrinsically. Yeah, and it's so calm through it all as well. So - I think it's hard to appreciate if you're not Australian the way that your culture - Like she's more successful now than - Swimming champions. Yeah, she's more decorated now than Ian Thorpe and Susie O 'Neill and these people that, at least you grew up looking at as just the...

1:35:02That's wild. I mean, I had, I'm friends with Michael Klim. So I wake, you know, you wake up and... Yeah. I don't really think about that when I look at her, but... Michael Klim shared with me, you know, what it was like. Klim's awesome. Yeah, when that was at its peak insanity and there were just basically like 10 story high billboards of him and his teammates like on skyscrapers all over Sydney and like it was just like completely. Swimming's not like that anymore here. It's not. I think at least the way. Thorpe was like the last gasp of that like kind of superstar era. I think so, like around Athens, Thorpe was, Thorpe and Grant Hackett and that era of swimmers.

1:35:44I think it sort of was at its peak obviously around Sydney Olympics being what it was in Australia and sort of every athlete that was successful in Sydney Olympics was a absolute mega star. And then I think that sort of carried through to say Athens and then beyond that Australian swimming, I don't think was as sort of, I suppose wasn't as at the forefront of people's minds. Well, now it's on you, buddy. But as an Australian patriot to bring it back, you and Emma. Yeah, but I think that's changing a little bit and has been changing the last few years, just with the success that they had and that she had in Tokyo and people, it's like in the news again and it's in the newspapers and all that stuff.

1:36:29But yeah, I can't imagine what that was like then because those guys were on top of the world at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Just the idea of making manifest a dream, whether it's a creative dream, an athletic dream, like anything, like how do you think about, tackling difficult problems, weathering the challenges and the setbacks that inherently come with that and like kind of staying in the game, like to go from being like, I could be at any party in LA right now and I'm choosing to stare at a black line. Like there's a level of like discipline and like self-regulation there that I think is intrinsic to your success.

1:37:10Maybe that's God gifted, but also I think it's something that you can develop a capacity for. You can develop it, absolutely. And I think I did develop it slowly. I think over a couple of years, like building up the, I suppose, confidence to make the changes and sacrifices I made to get back in the pool or to change my lifestyle. I think that the work ethic side of it for me for me has always been semi-natural, the capacity or willingness to, I guess, quote unquote, do whatever it takes and to prepare for, and never like under preparing for anything or is always doing what's necessary has been something that has come naturally to me, I think.

1:38:11Do what I always want. Yeah, yeah. Either it's come naturally to me, I was just sort of taught through my youth, I guess swimming and then everything else, sort of how to do that. Either way, it's in me now. And I suppose, yeah, developing the awareness that failure isn't failure, really. Failure are just... It's information. It's information, yeah, exactly. It's information. It's a bad race or a bad session or something is just as important as a good one. And I think just developing the capacity for resilience, I think is important, but the only way you can do that is by putting yourself in uncomfortable situations or forcing yourself to do things that you just didn't or don't think you can do.

1:39:09And I think that was part of what I think Brett Hawke was really good at with me in the beginning was that, and he talks about it now, was that for the first six months, he said he was just trying to break me all the time. I remember it was probably only about. Because if he could break you, he could save time and you'll just go back to being a musician. Like, let's just hard press him now. Let's just get this out of the way, yeah. Yeah, and he said he tried and tried so many times and I'd get out and throw up and then get back in. Just like we had so many moments that early on where I had no sort of aerobic fitness or capacity for lactate or any of that stuff.

1:39:49You hadn't been a swimmer long enough to develop that base that you can tap into later. So some of the stuff that he was trying to make me do at that time would just make me vomit. And that was probably two, three times a week for a while until I was a little fitter. I remember one morning, like I'd just broken up with my girlfriend the night before. And I come in the next day, I'm, you know, down and whatever. And he goes, okay, 200 fly, time trial. It's like, what the fuck, you know? And he goes, what if you break up with your girlfriend the night before the Olympics in four years? You got to be able to get up and, you know, do this.

1:40:28and just little things like that, that getting so far out of your comfort zone that you just feel like you're off in the deep end, you know, and then you start to find your feet. Yeah, it creates resilience within you. And so I think that's just something I've been slowly developing those building blocks of resilience sort of since I started swimming again. Sometimes you sort of just have to jump off the deep end and then find your feet once you're out there. You're never gonna be ready. That's what I've realized. You're never gonna be ready or think, you're never gonna feel ready, sorry. You might.

1:41:09So you might as well train to do it when you're not ready. Yeah, yeah. And if the stars align and you are ready, great, but you know how to do it when everything's not lined up the way you wish it would be. Yeah, exactly. And just start doing things. And you know that the first time you do it, for example, say a 200 fly. And he actually made me do one the very first day he got to LA to train me. And like, it was horrible. You know, it was the most painful thing ever. You got the elephant on your back on that. And he goes, okay, well, we... Yeah. Oh, man, I could hardly finish it. And he goes, okay, well, we got that out of the way.

1:41:49Like, that's the worst it's ever gonna feel. And I was like, okay, well, that was horrible, but it wasn't, my life's not over. Like, it wasn't that bad. You know, if that's the worst it's ever gonna feel, that's okay, you know. It's just finding, figuring out those unknowns. So it was developing the mental toolkits. Like if you're, oh, then now I have something to build on. Like it's a different lens to like, look at where you're at. Yeah. Look at it as opportunity rather than. Doing something for the first time, no matter how bad it is, right? Whether it's writing your first song or writing your first screenplay or your first day at a new job or something, just do it no matter how shit it is, and the next one will be better and then so on.

1:42:34And before you know it, it's almost like that compound interest theory or that like theory that,

1:42:42what's that theory, if you double something, every time you double it. That's compounding, yeah. So basically, you're building it with these little micro habits over time. You might start with a penny and then you get to, you see a penny before. Yeah, it's invisible and it's anonymous until one day it isn't. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Are you writing songs? Like you must be too tired to be writing songs and well now you're in taper, maybe you got a little more energy. It's so funny that my, having experienced the way like my creative side or impulses are so dampened by my exhaustion, the training, Like I'll take a break from training that we might get two weeks off for the year or something.

1:43:25And then like a couple of days into that two weeks, all of a sudden I'm just having all these crazy ideas and all these and I'm like, why isn't it always like this? And then I remember how tired I am usually all the time. Yeah, because you're swimming 20 ,000 meters a day or whatever it is. But I'm still riding, yeah, I'm still playing. Not as much as I would be otherwise, But yeah, I try not to sort of let that fade too much. I'm still sort of compiling ideas and songs and things that I can come back to when I have the time. Yeah. Yeah. And I will eventually be starting to play and make music again.

1:44:05Yeah. I'm looking forward to the day. I'm not worried about that. I have no doubt, you know, that will come when it's supposed to come. But in the meantime, dude, like honor to talk to you. I'm a fan, super supportive of this mission that you're on. I think it takes a lot of courage to kind of make the moves that you have. And I think there's so much to be learned by the example that you're setting. And I feel like you're showing up in a way that is setting a really positive example for other people and how they kind of think about their own dreams in their own life. So thank you. Yeah, credit to you.

1:44:43So my boy, Asher Gunsberg says, hi, you won the Masked Singer. He said you were a total pro. Like just, he's like, that guy's a real deal. Like, you know, he wanted to pass along well wishes to you as well. And we didn't even talk about Prince Neptune. You're an entrepreneur, you've got a garment line. And also there's a, isn't there a documentary out there kind of chronicling your swim? This all came together so quickly that I wasn't able to like see that or. Yeah, no, that was, it's cool having that because that documents the very early days of me getting back into it. There was a documentary following, it's on Prime Video, documenting or following four different Australian swimmers at different stages in their career.

1:45:28Ian Thorpe was one of them. And so I was in that and they were sort of documenting the early stages of me making the transition and coming in. And so that's out there. Yeah, cool. All right, well, we'll link that up in the shout outs. You're Cody Simpson. It's called Head Above Water. Head Above Water, is what it's called? Okay, cool. Right on, man, you gonna play a song? Thanks. Come on. If I can have a second. You're turning red right now. I'm gonna figure something out. Much love, dude. Thanks, man. I appreciate you having me on. Thanks, dude. Cheers. Peace. This was the last song on the latest record I released in 2022.

1:46:11And the title is You Don't Know Me, which I thought was kind of semi-appropriate for this chat. Now we do, though. Now you do.

1:46:35Young lady lover on the top of the world Can't put my trust in all the things that I've heard Somewhere inside you're still a girl I used to know But I can feel you letting go

1:47:01How's it gonna be

1:47:07When you don't know me

1:47:15How's it going to be

1:47:21When you don't know me I used to run inside that circle you in But that little bubble's bound to burst in a bit Gonna wave goodbye to the man you used to know Can you feel me letting go? How's it gonna be

1:48:03When you don't know me

1:48:11How's it gonna be When you don't know me

1:48:28Sun is setting on a lonely road now The misty hole that knows the curse you can't I can't stand the things you're happy you found But I feel like I'll be cool at last Cause it's just how it's gotta be

1:49:04You don't know me, do you? How's it been?

1:49:17When you don't know me, know me, know

1:49:51That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

1:50:36Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

1:51:13Portraits by Davey Greenberg Graphic and social media assets Courtesy of Daniel Solis As well as Dan Drake Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting And website management And of course our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt And Harry Mathis Appreciate the love, love the support See you back here soon Peace, plants Namaste

1:51:53guitar solo