From Drinking Every Morning to Running 340 Miles: Tommie Runz on Recovery, Running & Redemption

39:03The first time I saw an R2 in person, I got it immediately. This is the Rivian that a lot of people are gonna be able to enjoy. Driving it with RJ only confirmed that. All right, so first impressions in my first in your first experience in the R2.

39:23Nice. All right, now I'm getting the feel. Yeah. It feels really tight. It feels nice, right? Yeah. Interestingly, like from a first impression point of view, when you see it from a distance, proportionally, it looks very similar to the R1. You know, like the way that it is designed, it looks kind of integral with the original. It's quite a bit smaller. And so when you look at them separately, sometimes people will be like, is that an R1 or an R2? And they have a lot of similarities. But I actually think R2 ended up with a better set of proportions. And it's that kind of thinking that just exists across everything to try to deliver an experience that still feels really Rivian-like, but at a fraction of the cost of R1.

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41:31So you're moving up in the job, but your quality of life is degrading. You have a 10-year run drinking as a parent also yeah you know that has to be like looking now you know backwards at those times like it seems like you have a great relationship with your kids now i think so i try to yeah she's 19 my son's just turned 16 um they i mean i don't think they remember me drinking you know but she remembers me as a dad then so i don't know i just don't really know like how much of that life she remembers but i'm so happy that you know that i've been i've been sober going on i've been sober over nine years now and it's um i i can't i'm so thankful like i don't even necessarily have the words of like how happy and um grateful i am to be in their lives and be and be a point of inspiration in a way.

42:35And I don't hide the fact that I used to be an alcoholic or I am an alcoholic. When we first met, correct me if I'm not remembering this properly, but when we were talking, you were still sort of struggling with whether to share your addiction and sobriety story. I mean, obviously you were much earlier in sobriety at that point. And now this is, you know, it's sort of running first in terms of like how you communicate publicly, but the recovery piece has become much more prominent in how you think about, you know, how you share your life. Yeah. It was definitely like I didn't being in corporate for so long and trying to build yourself, your personal brand, but then also you're working, you're representing a company.

43:24Like I didn't ever, I never talked about sobriety. Even after I got sober, I kind of was really quiet about it because you don't want to, you don't want to negatively impact the company. but i had to like come to terms with this is my per this is my personal brand this is my message this is like could potentially be my purpose in the world is to share some of the things that i've learned and i got on a podcast uh once there was like a live with uh believe in the run and he was like 30 minute little spy he asked me some questions and there was a moment that i could have talked about sobriety but and he like teed it up perfect for it and then i like pivoted and went back to running and I got off that that 30 minute live and felt so terrible like like I missed an opportunity to potentially help one person maybe and I'm like okay if I'm gonna do this whole Tommy Runs thing and I ever get an opportunity to be on a podcast again if someone asked me that moment about that moment or there's a chance that I could talk about sobriety I'm doing it and I think that was when we met it was like kind of right before that all that happened and And, you know, knowing that there's a you too out in the world that leans heavily into that story, gives like other people moments of clarity in a sense where I can do that too.

44:42And so in that moment, I'm like, probably reference to you and other people in my brain, like they're doing just fine. And there's no one like shaming them for being, you know, attempting to be sober and stay sober and help other people. So that's when I leaned in, like, I'm telling this story because when I got sober and the first day of the first meeting I went to, I went into a room with, you know, it was in a nice area. There was nice cars outside, walked inside. Everybody, you know, the average age was probably like 45 to 50. Everybody, no one looks like me in the room. And I walked in because a therapist told me that I should maybe check it out.

45:19And there was a guy that was going to be waiting on me to get there. So I'm like, okay. and i walked in i'm like these people will there's no chance that they understand what i've been through yeah and then i heard like a gross point crowd yeah i told you this you know i was born in gross point okay yeah you remember we i think we talked about it was actually west bloomfield okay so basically same thing yeah maybe even a little more yeah definitely a little more and it was like a bentley outside and like a like a porsche or something like that this is this isn't gonna work but then i'm sitting there and all these people are telling their story and they literally in some way said how they've in their stories they shared how i felt you know about myself addiction um and all that so i'm like this is these are my people almost immediately before i even said a word i'm like these are my people and i need to be here if i can do that randomly on a podcast or in some version of like a caption of a post that i share about some shoes and i mentioned something else that strikes like that chord of like, oh, I do, I resonate with this.

46:22And if he can do it, I can do it too. And that's been my theme for like everything that I've done, whether it's, you know, these big races or just going after marathons, it's not necessarily like, I want to inspire you to do this, but I want to inspire you to do some form of whatever that next step is for you. So that was really what I was grappling with was like, can I share this? And is it helpful? And then I had to think about like, my life was saved in those rooms because people shared their stories authentically. They didn't cut corners. They didn't try to preach to the thing. They literally just shared some of their most vulnerable and scary and kind of like laughable stories.

47:06But it was what I needed to know that like it's not just me you know yeah walk me up to your moment of clarity like how did you uh wake up one day and decide this is the day that i'm gonna get sober i'm gonna go to my first AA meeting the day was uh January 11th 2017 um that was the the last drink i had was January 10th and leading up to that was like just a couple years of just trying so hard to figure out how to string together a week or a month or whatever. And my friend Donovan, like best friend, brother, met him when I was like 12. And we just were like inseparable for so long. Rest in peace.

47:51And he passed in March and March 2025. And so he was, he definitely was alcoholic as well. He didn't ever say he was. But whenever like I would say that I wanted to stop drinking for a little bit, he would be like all right cool i'll do it with you and it was strange how quick he would i knew he needed it too but he was doing it for me you know in his head but it like it let me keep trying to do it so every time i would try and fail like i would tell him the truth and he'd be like oh you good bro like you know you got a good job like we kind of played it off and kind of rolled forward but every time i would try to get worse and worse to the point where like my mom text me one day in january 2007 like right after the new year uh he and i were gonna do this dry january thing and i got to like the third or fourth day into january went over his house um our wives at the time were you know we're drinking and i i made it through the whole night no drinking and i woke up at like 2 30 in the morning my kids are downstairs with his kids everybody's sleeping in the house at 2 30 in the morning and i like went into the kitchen, found the bottle of vodka and just started drinking in the middle of the night.

49:06No one's awake. There's no reason why I would need to do this, you know, in my rational mind. And then just got drunk and fell asleep. And that was the silliest and dumbest and saddest that I've ever been. You know, it's like, at least like I could have caved while people were awake. You just woke up in the middle. You couldn't even sleep through the night. There's nothing going on. There's no benefit to me being tipsy, drunk, or anything alike at that point. There's no awkward social situation that you have to show up for. Yeah. I just had to stay asleep. I could have just went back to sleep, but I'm like, let me go have this drink.

49:47And then that was just, I woke up the next day and the days after that, I would just obviously right back to it. But I just felt that was the worst that I felt. And I'm just like, I'm going to die like this. like this is how i die is in a car or you know i'm already i'm i'm 30 whatever 32 it's gonna be blood pressure because my blood pressure was high blood pressure yeah like i was in the hospital when i was 30 or something like that 29 30 with 182 over like 120 something wow like at this point from then on i could feel whenever my blood pressure would get high enough Like my hand was hard to go numb.

50:24Like, so I was playing with like dying just like my dad did, you know? Yeah. And I have this, you know, father figure looming over. I got to beat him. He died so young. If I can't be better than him, I might as well die sooner. Like this is ridiculous, I guess. But so like, that's, but that's where I was like, that's like, this is just how it ends. You know, there's no, I've, I cannot beat this. It will not happen. And it just is what it is. And my mom like text me one day, she's like, How's my son? And this was like a day or so after that episode. And I'm like, normally I just go, I'm doing great.

50:59Kids are good, blah, blah, blah. I just told her not good. And simply like just that quick, not good, didn't divulge what was happening. And she said, you know, you should call, you should reach out to EAP. You have insurance, employee assistance program, reach out. They'll maybe help you. And so I did what she told me to do. and they called me like the next day and was like hey you know they do like a little screening thing to figure out what type of therapist maybe you need i complained about family stuff and blamed everything the reason i was calling is not my fault it's not addiction it's just you know whatever but she asked me how many how many times i drink a day or a week and i'm like it really just depends on like what it is if it's beer it's a ton if it's liquor it's seven eight or whatever until i can't anymore and i wake up in the morning i drink and she's like okay no no you're honest in that answer so like i told her the truth i told this lady on the phone the truth and then they like okay what we have an appointment for you on january 11th uh with this person and she's a family therapist and so i'm like okay cool january 10th i drank at like 10 30 p.m like i can't go there smelling like liquor so let's stop here um so i walked in and she starts talking to me i'm sorry complaining about family and this and that works hard she was like well how much do you drink you know or do you think that i have a drinking problem like yeah i may have a drink a bit and she asked me how much and i told her the truth again she's like okay well the cool thing is i'm a family therapist but i'm also um i'm i'm actually mainly a substance abuse counselor and i'm like i almost walked out like you guys tricked me you know what i'm saying but uh they she she said well you you definitely have a drinking problem i'm not going to call you an alcoholic, but you have, you have an issue.

52:44There's a meeting that happens on Sunday. I know a guy that goes there. He's a nice guy. He's around your age. You should go with him. Just meet him there. And then, so I walked out of that office and was like, all right, well, how about I just don't drink from Wednesday to, to Sunday. And at that point, that's like four or five days. And that is a stretch for me, but somehow because of, I say like those three truths, I was able to like the weight of the addiction was lifted enough for me to hold and not drink from January 11th to that, to when I walked in that meeting. Right. Also, you're a man of great integrity.

53:19And when you say, I'm going to, I'm going to not drink for these four days, like you're a man of your word. Yeah. I've been able to, yeah. I didn't tell her that. I just said that in my head, like I'm just not going to drink. But it's that, it's that thing, that superiority complex, like I am, you know, like i'm stronger than anyone while also feeling like i'm the worst person in the world yeah you're simultaneously like inhabiting those two ideas about yourself i don't know like i don't know if i ever i always thought that i could be really good at something um but i just didn't think that i was i had what it took to reach like my potential you know like that's just it like i knew that i was like smart enough i knew i could talk enough i knew i could make friends with people that i needed to and talk to whoever my mom you know my family raised me so well who else could drink as much as you were drinking and still move up the corporate ladder at your job and be a parent you know like you know you're like i'm i'm like crushing it i mean low-key like low-key renaissance man type stuff yeah yeah you know but you know like i think that i just never looked at myself well ever you know like even during that time working for that one company for 17 years i was just telling somebody the other day like i had job offers that were easily anybody else would have taken but i can't take that job because you're gonna you'll find out they'll find out you'll find out yeah because if whatever that whatever reason this company they don't they're not paying attention to me like that but you're gonna find out that i'm an asshole or that i'm like just drinking my life i'll stay here because they're sort of blind to what i'm doing and i have a setup they need me they like you know like and so like i just didn't have the confidence at that time to make a decision that would put me at risk of being found out.

55:01But leading up to that moment of walking into her office, I think it's just the truth part. We lie about our alcoholism and the things we're doing so much. It's like second nature or first nature almost just to hide, lie. um you know how many drinks have you had two you know but it's like i finally was able to tell the truth about it to someone outside of donovan you know and people that i probably wouldn't have told the truth to and it just it like loosened its like grip enough for me to see some space in between you know myself in this drink um and i'm i just like thank god for like for whatever happened And I was able to tell the truth at that moment.

55:47So you go to that first meeting, you hear a version of your story, something clicks in you. How do you go from being a guy who can't go three or four days without drinking to not drinking for coming up on 10 years at this point from that January 11th, 2017 day? You know, the meetings saved my life, not just like that day, but having a place to go that felt like home more than home did allowed me to just continue to work through some of those worries and issues that I thought were just so important to me. You know, like when you go into a meeting and you complain about something or you're worried about something, like somebody that has like 15, 20 years says like the most simple, stupid statement that just means like, oh, relax.

56:46That's one day at a time. I'm worried about three months away because I got to go to a conference. One of the endless aphorisms that are so annoying. It's like, bro, shut up. Like, okay, though. I get it. You know? it's but it was it's all the things that I like I learned in the program and as I worked through those like first few years of you know being able to bounce ideas or thoughts or worries off of people who weren't judging me but like saw themselves or heard themselves in what I was worried about and responded in a way that was much more passionate and like caring than someone who doesn't understand who can have a drink and not drink for three four days um people like that don't understand like what you're how silly some of the things you worry about but how large those issues can become if you if they go unchecked and so being in the program those first few years was so i needed every i needed that more than anything and i also think that i'm blessed to to not have the urge to drink and it kind of happened really fast like once i'm like fully made that decision that this is where i belong i just haven't had that oh i think i need a drink or oh i should drink right now i've just i just haven't had that and i know people struggle with that like every day so i know that i'm blessed and kind of rare in that in that aspect but i think it was just because of how, for me, how much I really wanted to be here, but just couldn't see a way.

58:21And they showed me the way to it. And I just accepted it wholeheartedly. And yeah, I probably still act like an alcoholic and process things in a weird way that only we would. But at the same time, it just doesn't lead me back to wanting a drink. Because I know, and I also know that I fully believe that I'll die if I go back to drinking. What do you think the difference is between someone like yourself who can walk into a meeting desperate, still not sure, not only like am I gonna be able to be a sober person, but do I even really want this? And yet building this foundation of sobriety And the person who has walked some version of your path, who goes in and feels similarly about themselves and their relationship with alcohol and can't get it or is in and out all the time.

59:22Is it something more than deeply wanting it? Is it a function of willingness? Like what is the differentiator between the person who really kind of locks in and like does the work and builds a new life and the person who just continues to struggle? I think, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind to me is like ego. I mean, we have this like identity built in like who we think we are. and And the reason why it takes people to get to rock bottom, whatever your rock bottom is, to make that change is because you're still attached to that ego or to that identity. And anything that rubs against that, you're going to have some unwillingness to shift and make the change.

1:00:08So, like, for me, my rock bottom doesn't look maybe nearly as bad as someone else's, but I was just ready to change. And like, I wanted it bad enough to be willing to do all the things and say all the silly statements. But I think it really just comes down to maybe not wanting it, but just being open and ready to take the suggestions of this book or these people that are ahead of you in this journey. And also just like surrendering to the fact that you really don't have any control. like whether it's over alcohol or drugs or whatever you just don't have it in life in general we just have no the only control we have is just how we respond to these to like to these moments and to these opportunities or happenings in life and it's so if you can just get to the point where you just are okay with like that then that's the building blocks for like whatever's next yeah but you just see so many people kind of holding on to their identity or who they think they should be They want to be sober, but there's also this thing that's holding them too close to what they built during their addiction.

1:01:24They haven't fully surrendered to the idea of powerlessness. Yeah. Yeah. And the idea that this has to come before everything else and there's no quick fix. Like, you really have to just be like, all right, like, what's it going to be? Yeah. You know, I'm, you know, Odysseus on the raft, you know, leaving Calypso behind in full surrender and letting the gods direct the current, you know, and hopefully I'll end up home, but it's really out of my hands. So silly. I almost like cried in that movie when he did that because it's like, I mean, that's how it feels. It's just like you - He's going through the 12 steps in that movie.

1:02:03We talked about this with Ryan Holiday. I loved that episode, by the way. On the podcast, yeah. Thank you for that. And it's like, finally, now he's going to get it. The only way he's going to solve this problem is by relinquishing the idea that he can solve it himself. Yeah, you just have to let go. And that's what it feels like. It feels like you're just laying. It's not like they sent him in a little boat with a paddle. It's literally just lay on these couple pieces of wood and just float and see what happens. And that's what it feels like. Even though we were like probably on a makeshift boat with like 20 holes in the bottom going to sink anyway, we're like holding on to this thought of we should be able to, this should be different.

1:02:43It should be a plan. It should be something more, you know, amazing to think about like this better journey. but we really just have to like let go and follow the like the tenets of the program but then also just relinquishing all control of what we thought we were controlling because that's one thing like for for me at least alcoholism seems like this wild thing that you're just so out of control but there's this weird false sense of control within ourselves we're like we know what we're doing we've crafted this master plan of how to be drunk around everybody no one knows it's this false sense of of security that we still try to hold on to as we're like trying to step away from it yeah well said when is the running that was my goal is to get you to say well said at least once i got well all right goal goal unlocked okay um i have some goals also i'll show them okay at the end we're not there yet when is running enter the picture uh so running um enters in 2018 um so i was like a after getting sober like two weeks into um that walk i could i could like start to see myself in the mirror like physically i'm like oh i look like crap like you know with my shirt off in the mirror like this is i feel terrible still i look bad um so let me start going to the gym so i was going to the gym six or seven days a week i just started going and And I got real buff.

1:04:16Like I was really into it. And my name, I forgot what my name was before, but my name was Tommy Guns on Instagram after like I started getting like real buff. You had some other stage name on Instagram before that? I mean, it was like - You can't remember what it is? No, I think it was like something about cooking or something. Like, because I liked cooking because I could drink while I was cooking. And I enjoyed that process. All right. So now you're - So now I'm Tommy Guns. Tommy guns. I'm in the gym like heavy. Guns with a Z of course. Guns with a Z. Yeah. Yeah. We, we stayed branded. But then, so like I was still working at the job.

1:04:56I had a client that was based in Chicago and he's like in 2018, he's like, Hey, you're fit. We run the Chicago rock and roll half marathon every year as my, for my company, we raise a bunch of money for a charity called move for hunger. and I was familiar very familiar with the charity like I met the guy who owns or who started that the same like my first business trip he was on that first business it was his first business trip so shout out to Adam but so like I'm like yeah I'll raise some money for the charity so I raised some money and but I'm training for this race training you know it was like six weeks of just like kind of like I jumped into a couple like 5k's to see what I could do and then I ran this this this race in chicago and at that point it was like a little over a year of sobriety but somehow like getting on the line with all these people that i don't know like that was a big race thousands of people i don't know running through the streets of chicago all with like the same similar goal some people are going to get there faster or slower but like we all did it together and it felt like this number one felt a lot like the rooms to me somehow in sobriety and then secondly no disrespect to my kids or whatever but it was probably one of the most proud moments that i've had in my life to be somewhere so far from like from what i thought was possible like growing up i didn't grow up seeing people like run half marathons for fun Like my mom did like a couple of charity walks and stuff like that for like breast cancer, like back when I was a kid.

1:06:32But I didn't know anybody that would run 13.1 miles in a row on purpose and pay for it and go do it. So it was like, I'm so proud of myself at this point. And so as soon as I got over like a metatarsal fracture that I had right before the race, I ran anyway, because that's what we do. I'm like, I like this running thing. Let me just keep doing it. So then I would just run a little bit more and started training and started signing up for different stuff. and then eventually my cousin was like uh you're not you man you ain't tommy guns anymore you're tommy runs and i looked on instagram really quick put the r in to see if it was available and it was so i took it and that's all she wrote that's all she wrote now we're off to the races uh literally from that point forward um you've gone on to i mean how many marathons have you run at this point 17.

1:07:1817. you did all six majors did you do that in a single year i did run all six majors at the time when there was only six still it was the last year there was six 2024 i did all six in a year i did osaka marathon seven days before tokyo which is the first marathon major of the year so i did all six in one year but i had done multiple multiple of them many different times but i got my six star medal thing in london that year and your marathon pr is like 246 or something? 246. So you're quick. You've matured into like an excellent marathon runner. Now you're plying your trade on the trails. You've done the Javelina 100.

1:08:03You did a 100K race also. You did the Speed Project and you recently did Western States. Western States 100, yeah. Did I get all of them? Yes, you did. Yeah. So you've stepped into this whole other world. Along the way, at some point in your running journey, you decided to be kind of a content creator in this space. I'm interested in how that evolved, like this thing that was a very personal kind of self-discovery relationship with running now becomes like a kind of a public relationship that you're having. And now it's like a business. Yeah. It's like you're a running influencer, quote unquote.

1:08:42in the best kind of interpretation of that phrase that has a kind of pejorative connotation. When I first started running, I was already making like content and stuff like on LinkedIn for work. So I was very familiar with like just making content and editing videos. So when I started running, I started posting more. And the cool part about the sobriety thing, going to the gym, and then the running was I would share like just what I did. And some of the things I was doing was so far outside of what people that I knew would see on a day-to-day basis people responded to it really well just like the I it wasn't about influence because there was no influencers to me at like 2019 or 18 but the people who give me like little kudos here and there saying like oh wow this is really cool keep going oh wow you're a year sober great keep going that's what I needed I needed like some of that reinforcement that that what I did mattered not only to me but it potentially mattered to other people and I just needed that nudge to keep pushing so like as I that the journey went on I started just getting more you know just a little better at making content and seeing people on YouTube do cool videos so I tried to make my own little cool videos on on Instagram um but then after like during 2020 um obviously I mean I was already working from home because I had already moved back here I mean back to Michigan so um I was you know I just had a little bit more time because everything slowed down work slowed down so then I started you know really kind of leaning in and making some content and then one thing that I felt I felt like that was very prevalent in that moment for me is like after like COVID happened so obviously like life is strange and weird and kind of scary because you're like who what's next but then Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd it's like okay like number one I as a black man in America I felt very just vulnerable at that time that my job could be just gone because of covid my life could be gone because of you know anything or racism so i'm looking at my kids like if something happens to me what have i left behind for them the fact that i'm sober sweet you know but i'm like let me start doing something that i feel like they can be they can see and something that's like a little more tangible than just like he was a cool guy and he ran or something like that so I started a um I heard this phrase said run run eat sleep repeat like years before and so I'm like you know I'm about to print shirts and make shirts that say run eat sleep repeat so that was like my like foray into like starting a company and having shirts for sale people liked it people were supporting it and as I was doing that like my social media presence was kind of growing like very slowly but then i'm like okay how do i sell these shirts like what can i do around that and then watching your pod i'm like i could do like a podcast right and so i started doing live videos of the run eat sleep show so then i started doing live videos with people i knew i would ask people to be on the show and i started interviewing like really big names in the industry or in the running world as i kind of went on so everything just started like growing at that time and i was also doing the Tommy Runs thing, also doing the show, but I was making a lot of contacts with brands because of the show.

1:11:54So I was just like, they were feeding each other. And then eventually I got to the point where Tommy Runs was just doing well enough where me doing this show, interviewing other people didn't feel like my voice anymore because Tommy Runs was my voice. And I could talk about sobriety and talk about the things that I'm feeling, you know, on the other side of the world, you know, like I was in, I was in Tokyo with my mom because she came to on that trip to run the Tokyo Marathon I was there the day like the day that my dad that I was the same exact age as my dad when he passed like because I was very familiar our birthdays are only five days apart so I know like February 19th is the day he passed I know so I knew on this day I'm the exact same age as he was you know so like I'm able to share that story directly through the time he runs thing and I can lean into the, the, the, the, what I think is potentially helpful, maybe very vulnerable, but helpful for other people in that position.

1:12:51And so I just kept building that thing, slow down on the show and lean more into the Tommy runs thing and started working with brands because of those relationships. That's just been my, like my journey a little bit. What is the mission that you're on? Like, what is the purpose of all of this? Like, what are you aiming for or trying to accomplish in the, in the public facing aspect of, of running these races and training for them and sharing your sobriety story um it imposter syndrome going crazy right now um and to inspire people through telling my story and doing these things like in an authentic way you know like if i'm if i say yes to doing a race uh it's obviously for me because i learned in the program like i have to put a lot of my decisions with me first in mind to make sure that like whatever that i'm okay and i want to do this and i can be of value to the people around me at least.

1:13:41So I have my own personal journeys and this is why I'm going to do that because I want to do it and I know that it'll push me to work hard to get there. But then I share all this stuff and run all these races to present my vulnerable self to people and try to make it look good and fun and cool. But if I can go run six or seven marathons in a year or the speed project from LA to Las Vegas, you know, 340 miles, if that thing kind of clicks somebody into being like, oh, well, then I can do like a 5K or a 10K or whatever, or even a marathon, then that's what, you know, that helped him doing that helped me.

1:14:27you know, pass the drive-through on the way home. Yeah, yeah. Just some type of - Or like not eat the whole bag of chips. Like it doesn't have to be running, you know? No, it doesn't have to be. The inspiration is transferable. Yeah. So it's like, if I can just be real open and honest in this journey and do things that kind of light me up, then I want to inspire people along the way. And some of that, like when I started the company and selling clothes and stuff like that, that was also like in a way is like, what can I do that makes me feel good enough that I can position this and share in a way that someone else can be inspired in some way.

1:15:01But that also goes back to the sobriety thing is just people sharing their stories. They weren't doing it for me. They weren't sharing their drunken story for me and their 20 years of sobriety for me. But them being real and open and showing the process that they went through, that's what inspired me to change my life and save my life. Let's talk about representation. When I asked you about your mission, you know, a big piece of this is about representation. Like, you know, what is the Black community's relationship to running generally, to the marathon space, and now more recently, the trail space?

1:15:38So I'll just speak from like my perspective. Most of us didn't grow up seeing running done as a hobby or for fun or for health or for whatever. we just we thought like we've always thought that you know running and jogging is a white people thing to do yeah i listened to the podcast that you did with our friend zach clark yeah and you're like no offense like jogging's a white people thing yeah it is you know i mean it was and that's what well at least that's what our perspective was on it because um we just didn't we just didn't grow up seeing that like in our in our areas and neighborhoods um and if we did it was it was definitely not somebody that looked like us.

1:16:14So, you know, as I started running in 2018, you know, I'd go to some of these races and it wasn't terrible, but it was still like very much an outlier thing to do as a black man in America to be like running marathons. And I know that there's plenty of people that were doing it before us, but that's just like, you know, you come into these races and you don't feel represented well. What's interesting about that is, you know, at the elite level, the highest level of performance from the hundred meters to the marathon, it's dominated by black people. Yeah. But then like - But that's not trickling down into the participation level.

1:16:51I mean, okay. Like you're not jogging with Noah Lyles, you know, like he's not jogging, you know, but like, but then on the other side, like when you talk about the marathons, I mean, they are black folks, but they're also just different. different i mean they're they're you know just from their different different countries they're born in different circumstances and that doesn't necessarily like that just doesn't resonate with you know people from chicago or detroit or whatever you know it's just not it's not us still in some way like we're just like oh that's them because they're from kenya or whatever so it just there's a disconnect there when it when you when in reality they really shouldn't be because it should be like oh that's obvious we we should be able to do that um but as i like started to run and grow in that space more and then 2020 happened and then black lives matter happened then people are starting to like we're starting to gain steam people are inside or like you know not going to work necessarily so they have more time to try to find recreation so we saw that running boom and black people were involved in that and then you have you know people that are out like really pushing forward like uh alison this year like shout out to her you know like people like that were like outside like talking about these issues and how you know the running community or running industry needs to open and at least make space for this to be a path.

1:18:08And as that happened, you got run clubs popping up, shout-outs like We Run 3, Run 3 in Detroit, and all these big, huge run clubs right now started around that time and gave Black people a space to come and hang out and run 2, 3, 4, 10 miles, whatever, that felt like this is our thing. and we do belong at least in this spot. And so the more you saw that happen, the more you saw that trickle into like 5Ks, 10Ks, marathons. And as I'm going through like my marathon journey and sharing it intentionally, not being like, hey, I'm the only black person here, but it's like, hey, I'm here. And here's the process that I went through and sharing it in a way that I think looks cool.

1:18:49And then you start seeing more and more people gravitate towards like, okay, marathon's next. Unless what are we going to do? And as I saw like that thing happen, Now that I've like kind of stepped into trail, I just walking into a running space that doesn't mirror or even closely resemble the progress that's happened on the road feels very, it feels intentional. It feels like, like how is this possible? Right. How is this happening? I mean, the trail, you know, racing, running world is about as wide as it gets. Yeah. So in being closer to it, like from the outside looking in, it's like, oh, this is intentional for sure.

1:19:37But then you get closer to it and, you know, you maybe talk to the right people and you start seeing like what the actual intention is. But maybe there's not enough paths or like whatever tools for this to change rapidly. so as I'm like in this space I'm like how can I what can I do to like help this because I feel like I was I helped a bit like on the roadside just by sharing like my journey and pushing forward and speaking on podcasts and sharing like my perspective on like what black running is and what like the black experiences are at these races and traveling around the world how can I mimic that or like lean into that feeling of not only you know showing or making a statement that that shows that there's so much room to grow here but doing it in a way that's pulling people in um and not necessarily speaking at the like not avoiding the issue but not but all my focus is on how do I make connections for like someone that's in Atlanta what if I post a video or a picture or a shirt that makes somebody say like I want to support that but I don't run on trails so let me go find a trail or oh if Tommy just ran western states I don't even know what western states is or like why it's important but it seems like it's important I could find a trail near me and I'm not necessarily saying like we all need to be out there but the fact that it's it's definitely it's just so much different than road like you don't run for five miles on the road and then go oh wow look at this like it's like yeah you know it's it i was listening to oprah pod she did the other day and she was talking about hiking is her favorite thing to do right now and she said that like you don't look at the where you're going you don't look at the top of it the whole time you just kind of head down doing your thing and every like 10 minutes or so you can like look backwards to see how far you how far you come and when you run these trail races like if it's a long enough race you could run for 10 minutes 15 minutes and if you can look around the view changes so often that it's so like you find yourself looking at things that you've never dreamed that you that you'd see and I want that experience for as many people as possible especially people of color that like grew up that didn't think that they'd ever see themselves on a mountain i said on a on a panel once it was like we did a little a shakeout run um for trail con last year and it's a four mile run it's not very far you know it's just four miles and you get to the top of that thing it's like right up near the escarpment and you turn around you look and you see views that i that a picture just a phone couldn't capture the beauty of this thing and so if i can share my journey that would make someone potentially want to find that in their way that's like what i have to do yeah it's very much uh attraction not promotion you know it's kind of a recovery principle you're not trying to convince people that this is what they should do you're kind of modeling the aspiration of doing it yourself as a magnet to attract more people and and demonstrate that it's possible.

1:22:58But when I think about why the trail community is the way that it is, I mean, you use the word intentional. I mean, what are the barriers to access our economic? Obviously, there's proximity to trails for communities that are in urban environments, et cetera. There's not seeing somebody that they recognize or feel like represents who they are in this community and now you're very much like serving that role for a lot of people what are the other factors that you think have contributed to this and and beyond what you're doing individually what are the solutions to diversifying this sport because it started so granola it's not like like these were cheap races nobody was signing up for them now there's a lot of money in it it's very different but um but it's not like you know lacrosse or hockey or you know or cycling or something that you know there's a there's a there's a huge capital expenditure involved except that there's having to travel to these places and that's obviously expensive yeah i mean so i think it's just the some of the solution is like back to intention you know like it's um i'm a brand guy like worker brands so it's it's a lot of my thought when i see like some of these spaces the community itself plays a big role in like how much they're like trying to extend that net or like the the like how much are you trying to show that this is an option like and attract people in but then you're also like i also look at the at the some of these uh the brands i mean because you know how it works like you choose some brands they go on a trip to tahoe or whatever there's they're making a choice of who they want to be there and it seems like really simple and little, but like, you know, I'm not saying every brand invite me somewhere, but like, if there's people that are already in trail and they may not be the biggest trail influencer in the world, it's, it's, it's a vote to be like, you know, we, I do want trail as a brand.

1:24:58I do want trail to look different. I do want trail to represent our customer base. I do want trail to feel like everyone should be able to experience something like this. So our vote as a brand is to make sure that we're finding authentic people that are really into this thing, but then they also serve as a catalyst or like people that will open the aperture of a community to be like, hey, you know, that's an option too. Because I think there's obviously some economic issues of how or in proximity of trail and all that stuff. But there's also a lack of or has been a lack of a communication of the possibilities of it, just period.

1:25:42Because two years ago, if you can see it and you're interested, you'll make it happen. You can make it happen at least. So I think that it just has to be more of a vote and a real thought. Like, let's look back at road in 2019, 2020, 2021, and how much brands leaned in to making sure that that road was more diverse. These races are more diverse in the in advertising and brand trips and blah, blah, blah. That was a very strategic effort on them in response to a lot of pressure, but they responded decent to it. So like, maybe we should think about for trail, let's implement some of that and lean into as a community, whether it's brand, whether it's organizations, whether it's conferences, how do you lean into like, we want this place to look like, you know, what we want a random trail race in the, you know, close to Chicago to look, you know, because this isn't about getting more people to one spot or like one race in access to western states or trail con or broken air like that's a separate that's like an entity within itself like that's a isolated thing but there there is access to these to trails much closer than that and much cheaper than going to find a tahoe california sure i mean most urban areas have some kind of natural preserve situation that isn't that far away but it's also a mindset thing Like the idea of like, I'm an urban dweller, this is my environment.

1:27:18Like I, I don't belong in those spaces. Like it's a, it's before you even get into trail running, it's like, oh, just like, I'm going to go for a walk in a nearby forest. Yeah. You know, could be a leap for, you know, a certain, a certain person who was raised, um, to believe a certain thing about like who they are. Yeah. Like we, like when I came here, it's, it's, you know, I see a mountain close by two years ago i would have just saw a mountain like this that just happened whatever i don't care but as soon as i see it now i'm saying like oh maybe i should look on on on an app to find out there's a trail or not and i think that that's like that little switch of there's a there's a potential really cool view or like a really good workout that could be had if i just find a trail and a lot of people just don't have that like if if you i don't even know all the trails in my area you know and there's people that have been in trail that would be like yo bro there's a trail 15 is for me like what do you mean and that to me is just saying like let's open up like the the direct like line to like this is a possibility and if even if you only run on trail like once uh whatever or you don't it's just it should be an option or an unlock there and i think that that's the way towards progress is opening that thought up to as many people as possible so they can decide how far they want to go.

1:28:41When we push for like more people to more black folks and brown folks to be on the road at these marathons, that doesn't mean, you know, everybody that was inspired by that doesn't mean that they ran a marathon, but they might've started going to their local run club. They might've just decided to get to run by themselves and get healthy. But how do we just like get that rolling and get that momentum as a people and as a community? Were you the only black person running Western States? no there was only a few but i don't i don't know all of the people but i think there was at least i was trying to remember if i saw any other black person at trail con other than you oh okay well trail con was a little different um trail uh i was the only person that was i think that was like speed that spoke at trail con this year um that was black and there were like a lady that i know that was there she was black she counted i think it was like four of us at trail con and then probably less than thousands of people that attended that event the trail con part and some of the western states part to me that's it the brands have a lot to do with that i think you know there's a they spend a lot of money to be sponsors to these to these things yeah it's become a very commodified event like all the vendors and like you know acg had a huge like presence there like every brand was showing up at trail con like and you know they're investing money in this space like it's a very commercial prospect right now yeah and so but like in that you know if a brand's a big sponsor they're not it's not just them they're bringing people with them they're we know this influencer market is what it is they're they've got five ten people they're just making content having fun running the races being involved in the in the in the conference so it's like at that moment i think what it was before and it's missing out on what it could be by you know virtue of having a variety of perspectives yeah because like the more the more enough to the people that like are romanticizing like the old days and keeping some of these things you know so pure um i understand that like it's i mean i get that i get there are certain races that probably will always stay that way like barclay marathons is never gonna change you know somebody's like would you see some of the progress and innovation that's happened on the road when it comes to like run clubs and race different types of races different types of brands making different types of clothes and apparel all that came because just more people from different backgrounds were attracted to it and we've seen the running boom because of so many different people it wasn't because running stayed the same so if you look at trail like how can we bring more more people from some thought they would be there forever some never even imagined it but those two people come together it's it the possibility is like kind of endless sure that was the topic of at least one panel at trail con like there's a lot of uh discourse around like what's happening to the trail community you know it's it's grown obviously um but you know there's a romanticization of like the early days where you would pitch your tent at the starting line and it was you know a couple guys in vans or whatever yeah and now it is what it is today is this moving in the right direction is it not like there are protectionists like we need to protect the purity of this culture and then there are opportunists on the other side of that spectrum who are like looking at like the financial opportunities that are available here and in the middle there's like you know a variety of opinions about what this community should look like and what trail running should represent, et cetera.

1:32:15But the community is dictated by the people who are participating in that community. It's not dictated from above, like this is who we are and what we are. It's like the people who inhabit the ecosystem are the ones who get to decide that. And unless you are onboarding a diversity of voices, it's going to remain stagnant and kind of stuck in what it was before and it's missing out on what it could be by, you know, virtue of having a variety of perspectives. Yeah. Cause like the more, you know, to the people that like are romanticizing like the old days and keeping some of these things, you know, so pure.

1:32:54Um, I understand that. Like it's, I mean, I get that. And there are certain races that probably will always stay that way. Like Barkley marathons is never going to change, you know? Somebody's like, would you run Barclay? Hell no. I'm not ridiculous. But it's like, to those people that are trying to hold on to that, the running boom has showed us that if you don't open the door to new voices, the way that things are going with social media, it's going to happen. People are going to start running trail regardless whether you invite them or not, or if they feel welcomed by you or not. And so if you feel like a real trail purist and you want people to take care of the trail and you want people to make sure that they're respecting nature and all these different things, you should openly be a part of the growth of the sport.

1:33:42Instead of clinging to like, we can't do this because of all these reasons, open up a bit and realize that you could be the generation or the people that help guide this growth in a way that stays and maintains this purity of it. Because we are in nature. It's not like we're just running down the street. And there's some rules and guidelines that you should follow. Just because we're running on borrowed land or taken land. And so we should respect these things. And if you decide that you don't want this group to come because they are different, then they're probably going to do whatever they think is best for them at that moment.

1:34:26And that may not be in line with what some of the things you're trying to save. And then so it's just going to happen anyway. Is there anything else that we should talk about when we're talking about representation and inclusion? Like, have I even asked like the right questions? Is there something that I'm missing? No, I don't think so. Like you said earlier, I'm very much on that. like i'm going on my journey and i know that i represent i know what i represent and i know who i am and so i intentionally just share because of that and i'm not like i'm not as well versed on all the things that are like the way to move a culture and a movement forward i just know that you know if i can use what i have in my and the leverage that i have with brands or the relationships that I have with brands, then I'll just try to push in that way.

1:35:20Because if I can maybe risk or like, maybe not jeopardize, but if I can use some of those things that I have to say like, oh, hey, can we get a couple more people invited to this space? I wouldn't necessarily be invited by you. But just the fact that there's this dude with dreadlocks who's like running Western States and every other dude kind of looks like the same guy, a skinny guy probably with a mustache and you know some good mustaches yeah and you know listen nothing but love but uh you know i think it's really powerful it's it's like you don't like just your being there you know is is making a statement louder than anything you could put into words and it's it's powerful like if i could say like what i would love to recreate i guess the feeling of or the thought of was like when i did the speed project and uh early 2025 going into that thing what i saw was who does this race if they do it solo is is like white and super tatted and really cool looking you know but then there's a guy named malcolm who who was the second person to do like the og 340 mile route he's a black dude from from new york explain what uh the speed project is for people that don't know before we get too deep into this speed project is a unsanctioned um race from santa monica pier to the las vegas the old the welcome to las vegas sign in las vegas nevada it's a the original route that they did was 340 miles um on foot and but there are no rules as well so like there's relay teams that do it it's mainly a relay race most people do it most people by relay yes it's 340 miles right so how many people solo it and when you say there's no rules like it doesn't even matter like what route you take to get there like if people are taking all different kinds of routes yeah so there's only only like i guess technically there's only one route and it's like the og route that's like if you're gonna say you did the og this is the route you have to go and the other thing is shorter if you can find a way to do it while being safe and i don't know you know whatever um you just get to go so it can be it can be as short as 200 like high high 200s or as long as 340 or unless you get lost it could be more i guess but he had done malcolm had done the 340 mile route solo and he was the second person to have done that og route and not gone like through some of the other ways that people have like carved into this thing now and he was really instrumental and like once he found out that i was going to do it he like i met him before in like the marathon scene but he hit me up and was like he was really helpful and like for me and my crew um so he kind of like gave us gave me the the like audacity to like continue to push for this and make sure i showed up like one thing he said was like don't come to this thing and then just kind of fit in with whatever be tommy runs like all the way you know so that's kind of the ethos of the whole event like you said like lots of tatted guys like there's a panache to this event that's very different from the traditional trail world like this is like it's very punk rock yeah it is it feels like and he helped me by just being him um and being being useful like resource wise and knowledge but then when i went about it i made sure like i lived up to like that part is like ben tommy runs this whole time i did this on the road already just make sure you pull up and be you like fully and we captured it and made a little documentary and everything about it the cool You're saying that with a lot of humility.

1:38:50That documentary is incredible. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah. I watched it for a second time this morning. It's really well done. It's beautiful. And it really illustrates the odyssey of this race and the highs and lows. You just go to the depths of your capabilities and you're being tested to the fullest extent possible. And it's all illustrated and beautifully, beautifully filmed. So I encourage everybody to check out that documentary. I'll link it up in the show notes and stuff. And I called a hero. And I knew I was going to call a hero before. But it wasn't necessarily like I'm about to go be a hero.

1:39:27But it was that moment of that storyline of like we all have to be like the hero of our own stories at some point. And we all did it at some point. Whether we decided to like I'm going to lose weight or I'm going to get sober or I'm going to start a company. those moments where we had to decide to like no longer be the villain victim or guide for someone else we had to be the hero ourselves and me telling me doing this in like sharing my sobriety story and walk this whole time was just me deciding at one point I had to be like the hero of this journey and hopefully people would watch it and decide to be the hero of theirs in some way but the way that I shared it intentionally was like I'm like told the guy um this dude named Olu he shot it was his first time making a feature like a feature length film oh wow he did just a phenomenal job he's crazy I'd never had didn't meet him until the day that we met in Santa Monica or I met him before at TRE he took some pictures I mean that's how that's how I knew about him but spent six days seven days with us um but I told that story like that openly and show I mean please don't get all the highlights like show all the all the crap that's like makes it challenging and then fast forward the reason I brought it up is because like this year Shout out to young dude, Mitchie Paul from Boston.

1:40:46He's the fourth person to do the OG route, a young black guy from Boston. And it was like he did it because he saw me do it. And I also felt like it was cool because I also showed everything that I had to show. So it wasn't like I vainly inspired him. I showed him all the shit. and if you feel like you're watching what i'm doing and i share my story whether it's sobriety or being black in space content creating or whatever i want you to be inspired by something i do but for the right reasons and the inspiration doesn't come from uh this this idea that you're out crushing it like you're you're just so beaten up dude like it's shocking that you finish this race like you're so far away from vegas and you can't even walk you know and you've just got like an insane number of miles left before you're gonna get there and the inspiration is like how did he even like complete this thing like you were just absolutely broken that's what i wanted to show because that to me is the same story as as us or me in sobriety because you're just like like shredded to pieces at some point and like how do you continue like how do you keep keep going and how do you make that decision for yourself even though like everything's telling you to stop or saying that you can't make it or can't do it so how do you do that to me it's like that somewhere you you've you've made some decision that you're willing to go as far as you possibly we can and then a little bit more.

1:42:32Partially because I feel like I owe it to myself to go farther than I thought and dig deeper than I thought I could because I don't think I'll ever be as low. Even in that whole doc, I'll never be as low as I was in those last couple of years of sobriety. Just never. I don't care if I'm choosing to do this. It's my, I want to do this. It may be terrible in that moment, but I got to remind myself that I can go farther because this is what I decided to do. To me, what you did and the documentary that you made about that journey is a living, breathing document. It's the embodiment of this idea I believe in that we're all so much more capable than we allow ourselves to believe.

1:43:16And that our darkest moments and our depths of despair and our trauma are actually engines of change and transformation. Yeah. We can redo the documentary. You could narrate it. No. No, it's perfect as it is, dude. Yeah, it really illustrates, those are the themes that come across for me, that these low moments are not things to be ashamed of, they're things to be leveraged. Yeah. And the way that you do that is the way that you get sober one day at a time, one foot in front of the other. What's the next right thing to do? What's the contrary action to take? and cultivating this familiarity, this relationship with discomfort as a friend rather than something to avoid.

1:44:04Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this choosing the uncomfortable thing to do when you know it's against your lower nature is, like if I could say that to myself over and over, I think I'd still even be a better person. If you can choose to lean into that thing that's saying you really should do this even though you don't want to. you know that's what i lacked for so long you know and that's why i you know essentially like hated myself and who i was and who i was going to be was just because of this like my first thought was to always go towards like what's comfortable now even if it was the most painful choice that has to be the hardest thing that you've done that that distance yeah that race in comparison to western states or are they all just some version of awful yeah they're all some there are some version of awful the speed project 340 was was challenging but it was like it felt like i was all the pain was spread out over like a few days instead of like western states was was challenging really tough like in its own right because it was such a short period of time and you have like a thought of like when i want to finish this thing um like i wanted to finish in 22 hours and i finished in 24 55 which i'm still happy about but it's like boiling it down to like a day of movement and having like a time goal in in mind is to me just made the speed project feel like a little easier in a sense um but it's all it's all like some version of of crap what is the difference like you're a marathon guy you've done all these marathons for a long time you're like the guy who's always at every marathon yeah now you're in the trail world like how do you put to words like the difference in those experiences and then secondarily like how do you change your training to train for these kinds of races versus marathons i guess i've never i never like looked at it like differently like showing up and doing this i look at it the same because i'm still me wherever i'm gonna go i just try to look at it the exact same and just share as I'm going along and just connect and bring the presence that I feel like maybe is lacking in the room and like that might be mine, you know, and just making sure that I'm like truthful and honest and like whatever answers or whatever questions I get asked.

1:46:17There's this idea, like a marathon is long and it's super hard, but you know, in 240, whether it's, you know, 246 or four and a half hours or six hours, it's going to be over, right? Like you're going to be on this trail for what is going to feel like a lifetime by comparison. Yeah. To me, to be honest, like once I did the speed project, I think I kind of started on the deep end, you know? Yeah. I really, I enjoy like this. Your pyramid's upside down. Yeah. I feel like, and then I'll be down to 50 miles, but I feel like I enjoy this, I enjoy this like low level of like consistent discomfort in negotiating with yourself.

1:46:59Like as in a marathon, you do, it is over much quicker. And it seems like to me, there's just less opportunity to make a choice to stop. You know, like during a hundred mile race or a hundred K, there's so many exit points. There's so many exit ramps where you could just be like, yeah, I'm done. And you're negotiating with yourself for hours and hours and hours. Out of 24 hours, I probably wanted to, but I enjoy, it feels like my life. 100 miles feels like 42 years of trying to figure it out as I go along and trying to talk to myself the right way and not lean into every negative thought or thing that happens.

1:47:46And so when you get to a finish line, it's like you re-arrive and have shown yourself again that everything that just happened in that race and everything that's happened so far in my life all still can come together and be a success. And I just don't feel like in marathons, there's just so much faster And it's just kind of a, not a blink of an eye, but it is essentially just over much, it's just over faster. 24 hours, you're not running a marathon for 24 hours. So it's like, it feels like very gratifying to do a hundred mile or run to these different, you know, races and see different scenes as you go through and views.

1:48:30You know what I mean? There's also the highs and lows that you experience the longer the distance. Like if you're running a marathon, like you're going to go and then you're either going to, maybe you're going to blow up and like that's all she wrote. In an ultra, you can feel like it's over and then suddenly something shifts and then you feel good again. You know, like there's, it ebbs and flows in a different kind of way. As you were sharing, I was thinking about Max Joliffe's recent performance at Badwater, which is just absolutely insane. Like, yeah, like, like bow, let's all bow down, you know, at that performance.

1:49:06It's like when you look at his stats, I don't know if you saw them, like he's running 730s and then he's running eights and you're like, okay, when's it going to drop down to the 12 minute mile? He's at like eights consistently the entire time. And I think it was, I don't know if it was mile 35, but like pretty early in the race, like he was like, this is not going well. And he was having gut issues and he thought it was all over. And then suddenly when he gets to the hills or whatever, he has a second wind and he comes alive again. There are these kind of mini deaths and rebirths that happen along the way that you're not going to experience in a marathon.

1:49:44And not for nothing, it's 130 degrees out. His body temp is like, he even has his body temp metrics and it goes up to 101 degrees. He's essentially running a fever. And his heart rate never goes over 138. Like, it's just like that is a bananas performance. Yeah. I text him after that and was like, Hey, congrats, bro. How are you feeling? He said that race took everything that I had. I can't imagine. And, you know, nobody has won that race without doing some version of a run walk method. And he never walked the entire way. Insane. He only stopped to like change his shoes or whatever. Like that is just like the next level.

1:50:23And that's what continues to convince me that, you know, this is such a new sport. And even when we see these outrageous breakthrough performances, like I think we're still at the beginning of seeing what's actually possible. And the longer the distance, the bigger the delta between like, you know, who's winning now and who's going to be winning, you know, what we're going to see in five or 10 years from now. Yeah. Like with UTMB coming up, like I'm really interested to see like what happens there. you know it just seems like since i just started watching or looking in the trail even it's just like the the the like advancements in like the the gains that have that have happened over like a year's time which is really crazy um and it's just fun to watch it's fun to watch it's like these people are including max like these people are ridiculous people yeah like this the guy who won western when he finished in sub 14 or something like that yeah i mean it's Yeah, sub-14.

1:51:16Three people finished above-14. The pace at which people are running Western states now that are winning is just off the rails. I was out there. I know it's not like, apparently it's not the hardest. You're a 246 marathoner and it took you 24 plus hours to finish this thing. Some of the stuff that these people ran up at mile 90 something, while I was running, I'm like, this is ridiculous. I got my friend Ern out there. He'd never been out there. He'd never seen it. He's like, I can't believe we're still moving. But yeah, these races are just, they're, they're beautiful in their own, like, right.

1:51:46Like if you're, if you are like interested in like these longer distances, it's a journey. Like it's a, it's like you said, like the highs and lows, the lows are long and you have to like manage your way through those. And that's why I think I like it. Cause I spent so much, so much of my life kind of at this low energy or not low energy, but like low like state of mind that like it's kind of fun to to be there and still and have to like negotiate through those because you know it's going to change and it's not life or death if it doesn't you know like you can you can stop if you need to and you know you can dnf that's and the one thing about trail that's really cool is like dnf is not like some big shameful thing like if you if you don't finish a marathon the road scene is like more like like oh dang what happen like you you know if you don't if you dnf 100 milers like okay well next year you know yeah i mean sometimes it's just not gonna happen it just happens but it's just been it's been really fun and i'm gonna run marathons still like i'm actually gonna be running berlin i'm not gonna be racing it because i'm not like fit like that but i'll be running it and i'm always going to be around the marathon scene because it's just it's still so fun it's still like that's where like my people are at and that's where i feel like that's where i started at but i definitely want to keep pushing in the trail and like just see i want to see where i can go like you know helping you know increase visibility is one thing but then i also would love to see like what me a couple years from now running 100ks 100 milers like i wonder what that looks like yeah finish time wise uh we left the training part dangling okay training was in training training was cool like big shout out to my coach melissa johnson white she's been she i got her before my first marathon in 2019 so she's been with me all these years through all these different races back-to-back races tsp so it's like she literally just ramped up the numbers and changed some of like the the like the concepts of a workout and a lot of it was much more instead of trying to hit this marathon pace for a 10 mile you know progression run it's more about like okay you're going outside and you're going to be outside for four hours today and just get outside and get moving and the miles are much obviously the the weekly miles is crazy high but at the same time lower intensity yeah just you're just out there and we still did like workouts like to for turnover to not make to make sure it's not boring but she's done a really great job of like hearing what i wanted to do believing that i that i would put in the work to do it and then and just give me a plan and like let me do my thing um so the training for it is just slower longer way more miles i think for for western states i think i was like a couple weeks over 100 um but a lot of like just time outside and i enjoy just not necessarily having to go be obsessive over a pace for 16 weeks of training yeah similar to myself your your influence sort of crisscrosses uh recovery with running and that means that like me you're also probably getting um a lot of dms from people with questions about these things.

1:54:50And one of the things that I'm curious about that I've experienced is a fair amount of confusion that conflates these two things. In other words, that the recovery is related to running in a way that misrepresents what sobriety is. Like, oh, if I just start running, that's the solution to my addiction problem versus what you and I both know that it's anchored in like working this program and that's something that's very different and takes priority over the running the running is a byproduct of putting in the work in the rooms of recovery and participating in in sobriety but i would imagine that you probably get like oh like i'm struggling with this but like i've quit drinking and now i'm running but there's like no program there yeah like how do you respond to those people or try to be helpful uh for people who are either struggling with sobriety or sober curious and also running curious you know it's sort of like let's take care of the sobriety thing first like and then we can get to the running part later i think exactly that like i i remind people um that they're they wouldn't know who i am they wouldn't be dming me if it wasn't for sobriety period i started running a year after so a lot of times like i'll people like to like if you do it a podcast or an interview or something like that they'll try to go oh you're running to stay sober and i like i make them or running is how you got sober yeah like i make them change that because like i wouldn't i there wouldn't be any running if i didn't get sober and so i'll just try to like remind people while they're trying to figure their thing out i remind them what is most important to me and my most important to me is sobriety because without that i wouldn't be here it's as simple as that like i can't necessarily I mean, I can say, check out a meeting or whatever, but at the same time, like, I just want to make sure that whoever's talking to me understands like what I put as a priority so that they can maybe look at that and think, okay, maybe I am using this as something that is unsustainable.

1:56:49Cause what if you get hurt? What if you don't like running after six months or whatever, are you back? That means you're back to drinking or back to whatever. So I just say like, Hey, priority is the sobriety. do that and everything else and do that for yourself not for anybody else be sober for you and then everybody else benefits from that and the running thing or for the cycle or whatever it is that's all second or third or whatever but never first it's complimentary though you know it it is putting the principles into action like you have to take contrary action you have to take things one day at a time you know it's it's it's an exercise in humility because you're never gonna to, you're never going to beat the mountain and you're never going to beat yourself.

1:57:32And there's always going to be other people faster than you. And, uh, and it's also an exercise in confronting yourself honestly, you know, like you can't participate in one of these races, especially the really long ones or, or any race for that matter, really, and not have, uh, your denial upended, you know what I mean? Cause you're going to meet yourself where you are in, in the truest version of yourself. And that's an opportunity for growth. Like, just like, how can I move towards this thing that is uncomfortable? It's going to teach me something and failure is good because I can learn from that.

1:58:08Uh, and I can grow as a result of these experiences. So it's not that running is, uh, you know, something totally detached from sobriety. And I think it's why so many people in recovery gravitate towards endurance sports, because it is, it's almost like a spiritual practice on some level yeah you just like you just have so much time to to to work through these things like in movement but if you're some of these longer races like you said there's so many um you meet yourself different versions of yourself so many different times in these races if you want to finish and keep going you do have to like have that conversation with yourself i mean you're out there sometimes by yourself for hours yeah and you have plenty of opportunity to to beat yourself up if you want and talk crap to yourself or and or continue or like change that negative internal yeah and then but then that lasts for 20 minutes sometimes like you you feel like a high for 20 minutes and you're back to that low again because something reminds you of the thing that was bothering you before right so it's it's it's there it's therapeutic i wasn't gonna say it's therapy but it's therapeutic in a way just to to know that you are you've signed yourself up for a task that is going to require you to And to dig so deep, you know, to continue at certain moments that when you finish, it just, it feels like you're a different person on the other side of these races if you allow it.

1:59:36Because you could go through and kind of, you know, only look at the highs and go like, okay, I'm great. But I also, that's pointless. That's also like when people are sober and they're only just looking at the fancy stuff that they get to tell people how many, like how long they've been sober. They are transformative experiences. Like each and every one of them is like its own hero's journey. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I'm just, I'm grateful that like, I'm grateful that I started backwards and did the TSP thing first. But I'm just like, I'm so grateful to like, to be out there. Like when I was, when I was in at Western, I had planned on being done before the sun rose.

2:00:12But like the one of the most beautiful moments of that race was after like coming to terms with like, I wasn't having the day that I wanted to have around like 19 or 20 hours in that I was going to, I was going to miss this goal of the 22 hour thing. I may maybe even the 24 hour, the sub 24. Like once I like in motion, like was able to like keep moving forward, but then also like grapple with that disappointment potentially and rephrase and reframe like what life was at that second or that time got to this point where the sun rose that I didn't think I was going to see. And it was the most beautiful moment and like joyful moment of the race.

2:00:48when I looked around and saw like this sun rising over the mountain. And that to me is like, we all thought we were going to be somewhere different or somewhere better at this point. But if you stop thinking about like the future or the lack of the future that you thought you wanted and really stay like exactly where you are, like be where your feet are and be in this moment, there's so many beautiful things like right in front of us. And we're experiencing so many things to be grateful for, even in the midst of like the most terrible or tough moments of our lives there's always something like right there that we can be eternally grateful for and running to me shows me that just in much more like physical sense and then i get to go home and try to figure out like how what i learned from that moment and then how can i actually like live that out in a day-to-day basis and maybe even like impart some wisdom like on my kids first and then maybe other people It's a very elaborate, extensive gratitude practice, you know, but that opportunity to frame it, uh, you know, having agency over how you, you know, decide, uh, whether this was a good or a bad experience, whether or not it went your way or not.

2:01:59Like another example of that is Molly Seidel, who Olympic marathon, like the elite of the elite of the elite who like is like, okay, now I'm going into trail. And, you know, there isn't that much time or distance between when she was just like, you know, the world's best essentially. And things didn't go her way at Western States. She ends up finishing around the same time you do. I don't know exactly, like in the same range, right? That could be chalked up as a failure or like, oh, turns out the Olympic marathon, that doesn't translate on the trail. But it's actually a story of triumph because almost anybody else in her shoes would have pulled out.

2:02:39And she's like, I am finishing this thing. And it was just the most courageous statement that she could make and ends up being this inspirational story rather than an example of failing. I mean, to me, it just shows me where her ego lies and her ego is more so on the, like, I'm going to finish what I started thing as opposed to like an ego of what people are going to think of this time. Because like you said, if somebody in her shoes pulling the plug and then just signing up for a different race, you know, and just running as a professional. But I saw that and like huge hats off to her because a lot of people that were elites and pros dropped out that day.

2:03:20And no like shame in that. They made the decision that worked for them. But she signed on and was like, nope, I'm going to finish in. And who cares what everybody else thinks as long as she crossed that finish line and was proud of herself and felt like she. Yeah, she was. So it looked like a very cathartic experience for her. Yeah. And I love that. Like that's, I mean, cause that's more realistic to all of us anyway. The perfect race day like happens for who, you know, like very, very rarely, even on the marathon side, you don't like strike a perfect race all the time. Her having that moment and deciding to continue and push through and then share it and let it just be a thing and go on pods and talk about it.

2:04:01that's like that's what we're doing is is living life and trying to do it to the best of our ability and in framing it or sharing it in a way that's like authentic true and like potentially inspirational yeah um all right uh i got a few uh lightning round questions for you okay tommy rich what are you running towards and more importantly what are you running away from um i'm running towards whatever's in the future it's like i'll leave it at that because i don't know what's out there um i'm running away from the person the version of me that was scared of the future and once an alcoholic always an alcoholic you can hide you know in this world uh very easily like and and and be shrouded in in praise and external validation for doing these races you know we all have things that we avoid and we can use any device uh to make people think that we're not avoiding them so what is the next mountain that you have to climb not running wise but like personal growth wise or like like spiritually or like in terms of you know your psychological well-being because the work is never done right we know this rooms for just like my own personal like internal work is more for me it's about like for me it's about like loving myself you know enough to um align like my actual decisions on a day-to-day basis and or even like some of the things that I am aiming for or want to do or share with the world or all of those things are based in like how much will I allow myself to like be proud and love myself you know and because some of this stuff whether i want to like sit here and be cool or not is based in validation in a sense you know like i would run these races i think without people saying it's cool but at the same time that's also part of the thing that's like feeding like my will to do more and somewhere under there is this is like is this kid that's like not good enough um and i just want to make sure that like as i'm growing that i'm actually like checking that version of me and bringing that like up to speed to like not just preach a story that's inspirational but like live a life that like that i'm actually proud of that if everything went away, like I'd still be really cool with it and I would still keep going forward.

2:06:58Beautiful, man. I love that answer. All right. The rest of these are fun ones. That was a heavy one. That wasn't really a speed round question. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. I lied to you. What is the appropriate reaction when you wave at a fellow runner and they don't wave back? The appropriate reaction of you passing a runner, unless you're like in Central Park where there's like a thousand people running, you wave back. You wave or wave back or nod or something. Like acknowledge each other. It's just human. It's a thing, you know? If you see me and I wave at you and we've made eye contact and I saw that you saw me wave and you don't wave, I think that's just rude on all levels.

2:07:40What's just punishment for the person who doesn't wave back? Straight to jail. Straight to jail. So yeah, PR project. We're talking truth here. Run culture. Are there too many run clubs? So have we maxed out on run clubs? Nah, I don't want to say that. I don't think we've maxed out on run clubs. I feel like maybe we've maxed out on some of the same type of run clubs, but I think that if you're into like Zelda and you got a Zelda run club, great. If you're a trail guy or girl or whatever, you want to run, do a trail run club, do it. I think that we can't like police or people gathering for whatever reason they want to gather.

2:08:16Training with carbon plated shoes. hell yeah or super cringe hell yeah okay why why not it's more fun it's more fun you run faster you know or just like i mean they're built for fast and speed but they're also built in a way that like saves your legs i mean it may not be super healthy to always run in them i'm not sure i'm not a scientist i've heard people talk about it different ways but i think that like some of the long runs that i have it's like i'll bring out some super shoes and carbon plate shoes and figure out how to get through this run and have a good day and put the miles in and i see nothing wrong with it i was in new york a little while back and did this podcast with chris chavez and malcolm gladwell and before we started taping malcolm was just talking he's like i love i love training and carbon plate issues because like also when you're older like you know you recover faster yeah all right good you're on the record on that okay um what is a real runner somebody that runs if you run to me if you run once a month a week whatever you're a runner if you can if you have a practice uh your movement practice is running no matter how often you do it or how fast or slow you do it you're a runner related question also related to the run club question what do you make of the fashion explosion in running right now because i'm of two minds when it comes to this Like, I think it's cool.

2:09:40Like I'm like excited about like some like flair coming into the scene and some interesting, you know, brands that are trying to do things a little bit differently. It just makes it feel like more vibrant and fun, but it also could be something that a new, you know, quote unquote, real runner might find intimidating. like it's a price of entry like if i don't if i show up to my run club and i don't have the right socks or you know my kid is like you know not not quite there like i don't feel like i feel insecure rather than like putting out a welcome mat where everybody feels comfortable showing up yeah to be honest i don't think i've thought about it like that um that's interesting and i feel like that's obviously happening somewhere but i think it's all good um i feel like that's a person thing you know if you pull up to a run club and they've created a atmosphere of of like being a super welcome and making sure people feel like they belong there i don't think it really matters what you have on um but if you've allowed yourself to be like more high school and you've there's clicks in that thing and they make people inadvertently feel uncomfortable all the run clubs it can be that kind of like high school click is sort of so i think there's a hierarchy and all that and then that's just that just rely that's that the weight is on the shoulders of the run club leaders you know and and a lot of them know that and they work hard to make sure that that doesn't happen um as often as it probably could if there wasn't somebody like kind of policing that energy and that's just like that's what i was just why i'd never start a run club Like, like I don't want to be responsible for all these different things.

2:11:21And I'm probably, if I started to run club, nobody would pull up anyway, but. Yeah. It, it, it seems like it's starting to come look more like what cycling has always been like cycling. Like I remember the first time I wanted to buy a bike and I went into a bike shop, like I was so intimidated, you know, it's like, it's scary. And it's sort of like, if you don't really know, you know, like you don't feel like you can even ask a question and there's these group rides and you know, there's a certain sock height and like you got it there are all kinds of like unwritten rules and yeah are your are your are your shades on the inside or the outside of the which one is right the outside outside okay yeah okay um yeah and it it's ridiculous right and i can see like running moving in that direction with all these clubs and that concerns me a little bit so while also appreciating that like you're taking your kit seriously in your presentation and there's a fashion thing to it and that makes it fun and interesting albeit an expensive hobby i think that partially like the the coolness factor of it and like these new things i think that's also why we're seeing such a boom because it does look cool and i think for certain communities the cool factor is an invitation you know like when i first started running i went into a store and they were i was asking for the right shoes and they handed me two pairs of shoes i thought were just horrendous and i'm like all right dang i'm like oh man i left my wallet in the car because i'm too embarrassed to say that i didn't like them so i just walked out the store and this didn't go back into the store and i like ordered some shoes online that i thought looked better and i think that like some of the the the vibe for sure if you can make something look cool people will want to want to like come to it sometimes and yeah that's an intrigue too like oh i can i can run for my I have to wear that super lame stuff that everyone else is wearing.

2:13:09I can wear this. Yeah. Like if I can get a fit off at the, at the run club and I'm also healthy and meeting people that are doing the same thing, that's kind of cool. You know, like that's like not just cool, but like that's fun. And that's like, that's positive. So I think it's just really just someone needs to police or watch like that, that, that thing that could make people not want to be there. And if, and if that happens, that's also why there's other run clubs. Like you come to a run club and you're like, this is really fun and great. but there's like 10 of us that just don't feel like this is our thing then that's why you people have started other run clubs like down the street two more this one is also related to the question of what is a real runner are you following whiz khalifa's running journey because this is the best thing to happen to running in a long time like i am so in love like with what that guy is doing right now and the way that he's sharing it on social media i think it's fantastic yeah that's he's he's that's the next guest it has to be i'm trying you guys so yeah yes that is true you've done it like so whenever i'm 10 times in a row now yeah whatever i'm talking he's he's like he's on his groove with this i'm in there bro i've seen the movie twice me too um i think i'm gonna try i'm gonna go for three nine hours of my life is a good investment i think you should just like this is my thing i just always use this i always use this score every time i really make every time like all the videos that you mentioned like are the ones that like i'm talking you know And I don't normally talk directly to the camera as much as I've used to.

2:14:35I've always just been running and using just different music. But I feel like it's a funny score to me talking about something silly, like growing a mustache or do people want to see my toes? And you have this epic. Yeah. So it's like I think I'm going to make a video and I'm going to tag you. And I'll be talking about the fact that I just sat down with you. And I'll use the score. Is that cool? yeah as long as i can like post a meme in response please all right i'll allow that all right cool this was great man uh super fun uh i think we covered a lot uh wow we've been going a long time um you're amazing i'm i've got nothing but love for the journey that you're on and i'm always behind your back uh spitting wind in your sails my friend i appreciate that You're a beautiful representation of being a real runner.

2:15:29And I think the mission you're on is beautiful as well and auditory. So thanks for sharing with me today. Thank you. If people want to connect with you, Instagram, obviously. You got your podcast. Where do you want to point people? Instagram. Tommy Runs on Instagram. I'm sure you'll tag it, but T-O-M-M-I-E underscore R-U-N-Z on Instagram. And then a big thing that we're pushing a lot, you'll see there as well as PR project. Like that's me, Gary, and Aaron. We sit down every other week and talk about all the things running, and then we do some fun stuff. But that's super important to me because it's like it's an extension of me, but it's my friends, and we represent different cultures that aren't normally seen in that podcast world and communicating for and about brands and about running culture.

2:16:15So that's super important right now. I think those are the two places to find it. I've got a couple short and longer documentaries on YouTube. Check those out. And hit me up if you want a shirt, too, because that's a statement that I want to continue to make. And hopefully it turns into a movement that means something. You can buy that on your website. On my website, TommyRuns.com. Yeah, and I appreciate this opportunity to sit here with you and talk and do it in a way that just feels like the timing is right for it. And I can't wait to see what's next. So just ask everybody to kind of tap in as I announce things.

2:16:50If you rock with me or you're liking where I'm going, support in some way. Right on, man. Excellent. Have a great time at UTMB. I will. All right, dude. Until next time. Peace. Please. You say it still. Sweet.

2:17:11That just feels like the timing is right for it. And I can't wait to see what's next. So I just ask everybody to kind of tap in as I announce things. If you rock with me or you're liking where I'm going, support in some way. Right on, man. Excellent. Have a great time at UTMB. I will. All right, dude. Until next time. Peace. Please. You say it still. Sweet.