From Punk to Monk: Raghunath Cappo on The Wisdom of The Sages, Bhakti Yoga & The Pursuit of a Spiritual Life

28:31Have you had him on the show? I have a long time ago. Yeah, I know Moby. But the interesting reflection that he had was that, and you would share before the podcast, like, oh, you're out in the world and you meet lawyers and all different kinds of professional people who have some connection to that scene and, you know, were part of it back in the day. But they go on and they build lives within the construct of the Western world. Like this Crossroads. Yeah. Like, like, like you, yeah. Like tell that story, like Tal, the chef and the owner of Crossroads. You see him at dinner last night. Went out to dinner last night and Tal, the owner of Crossroads, is great, incredible vegan restaurant in Los Angeles and they opened one in Calabasas.

29:12So we went there and I don't really know him that well, but I met him once before and he just, she just said, I want, he just took me around the restaurant and then just said, and introduced me to, I think his lawyer and said, this is Ray. He's the reason why this restaurant exists. And I was like, I didn't know what you're talking about, but you know, he's a kid somewhere in America. I don't, I don't know where he was from truthfully, but they got a record and they get inspired. They change the trajectory of their life. And I never like wrote a song for him, but it's just when you internalize something and it changes you in a deep way, positive or negative, it goes out into the universe and you have a ripple effect.

29:52And what he's doing is, you know, creating a culture of, you know, clean diet, refined eating where people can come and have these incredible meals and promote a cruelty-free lifestyle. And it was very impressed. And the thing is, it's, they get it at this young age. It really doesn't matter what age, but for a lot of these kids in the music scene, it was at a young age. Changes the whole trajectory of their life. And whenever we've had, and I'm sure for yourself as well, and myself, when we're on a speeding train going south and someone pulls a lever, now that train's now going north. And we start to feel like, wow, I was on a runaway train to hell on earth.

30:33And we start to develop a lot of gratitude towards the people in our life. And I could just tell by the way he spoke with such soft humility. He doesn't have to be humble. He's got very successful restaurants. He's doing great things, but he was just so humble and grateful. It was so sweet to have that exchange with him. The writing of the book too, and I'm sure the writing of your book too, you start to realize how so many people have been sent to you as messengers, as deliverers of truth. And sometimes they were handing me a message and I just looked away, but they've always been there. There's always been sort of, you know, lighthouses or guides or messengers that have come.

31:19And at different times, we just take them. I was just meditating on that this morning. I was like, if I was to fully embrace everything that's been offered to me right now, I would be a whole different person. But I'm only taking as much as I want because I have some plan B perhaps. So yeah, if we can fully embrace, and maybe it takes sort of lifetimes of heaven and hell on earth to fully embrace 100 % light instead of darkness.

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35:19There is something about looking in the rearview mirror and trying to make sense of one's life and all the things that have happened along the way to deliver you to this place. and I think your book speaks to this idea that when you do that rigorously, you will see how people arrive right at the right moment. Right at the right moment, right? To create these formative experiences for your growth and benefit. And within that, you can't help but see a spirituality that God is showing up for you. Sure, and sometimes you can see that just in meeting a person. And I know people who are just spiritually evolved, they can look at your face and they can just tell the person.

36:03Like I've had to make some certain choices in my life and I would consult with a guru or a teacher and they say, let me see a picture of them. And just through seeing a person's face, they can see the karma of a person. It may sound otherworldly or not, but I've seen that happen. I've also seen through good astrologers that I've had that study, you know, Jyotish, you know, Vedic astrology where they say, yep, this person, no matter what you give them in this lifetime, they can only get this far. They're going to have to go around a couple more times. Yeah, and then certain people are very, they have some moksha yoga in their chart where they're so accessible to this as well.

36:45That doesn't mean you should stop extending your hand because life is eternal. It doesn't end. I was listening to your Tommy Rives podcast and he was sharing a lot of that stuff as well. well, yeah, it just keeps going. We don't go away. And we choose right in this moment, am I gonna evolve today or devolve today? And I'm gonna choose it by what I put in my mouth and what I put in my ears and what I put in my eyes and how I behave and how I treat other people and how I treat myself. It's not like I joined a religion, now I'm saved. It's not that black and white according to Vedic teachings. It's a moment to moment choice of light over darkness truth over illusion, you know, however you want to word it.

37:34To bring it back to the thing that I wanted to raise with you, which is what Moby reflected in the foreword, was this idea that so many people from that scene that you two were both part of, like, ended up, like, going into the world, like, tall, like, they become professionals, whatever, but life instead made you dig even deeper like you decided not to go that route you become more disciplined and more invested in those formative principles that were at the core of that scene all the way back when you were a kid sure yeah and i don't know why i you know you don't know why sometimes you get i meet people like who listen to our podcast and just be like you know I'm 55 years old and I need to live a different life now.

38:24I've worked a corporate life and now I want a spiritual life. You don't know when that thing is going to click. Sometimes a midlife crisis is like, what am I doing with my life? You know, what am I doing here? Okay, I have kids. I've raised a family. What? Now what? We do that. I've checked off the bucket list. I've been to Aruba. I've been to Cancun. Now what? It's like, I want some substance. And sometimes you get it at a young age. And I've met people younger than me who are just spiritually focused at 11. I can't believe it. And then for me, it was just like a loud calling like at 22. And so I don't know why.

39:01It's some karmic thing meets some mercy. You meet someone who touches your heart and then you realize, oh, that's an option. I can be like that. I thought this was normal. There's a higher version of normal. So I think the biggest catalyst for change in anybody is to associate with people who have a high caliber of what normal is, a refined, high vibe. This is normal. And then by getting around people, and that's why I think pilgrimage is so important because you search out people like that who live this type of life. And you're just like, wow, that is an option. I could add some of that to my life.

39:44and I think there is something innate in the living entity in the living being that is always sort of tapping us on the shoulder. Hey, it's time to upgrade. Just so you get that thing that drops down on your computer. Time to download the new operating system and you're sort of like, remind me later. Never see this message again. It's never at a convenient time. And upgrading is never at a convenient time. How to upgrade my life is never at a convenient time. but you got to do it or you hit that never see this message again and then you just figure it out in your next life or your next life and your next life and for people who think well next life what the hell are you talking about guess what we've had next lives within this life i could look back 20 years ago i was in a different house a different part of the country had a different you know, career, different circle of friends, a different partner.

40:39I've had many next lives, past lives in this life. So if people can't believe, and I get it, you know, all I see is this life. If you can't believe in some afterlife or some previous life, think about the many lives we've had in this life. Think about the many incarnations we've had, both physically. you know i remember when i was a raw foodist you know i was like a buck 50 soaking wet with a crystal in my pocket or i had a different body when i was doing jujitsu every day and i've had different physical frames within this life and with that physical frame comes a different type of mind or different type of intelligence i've reincarnated so to speak that mind or you know think about your 17 year old intelligence your 17 year old ego your 17 year old mind it was a completely different mind.

41:31Everything and that physical and that subtle physical is constantly in flux. And I'm just witnessing and choosing. And it's in the refinement of my choices that I create my next body, meaning even tomorrow, what my body is tomorrow. What is bhakti yoga? When you talk about yoga in the West, we think it conjures up a certain image, a very Lululemon-oriented kind of lifestyle. So maybe share a little bit about the origins of yoga, how we should think about it, and what is specific or particular about this bhakti yoga strain of yoga consciousness. Well, within Vedic culture, Vedic culture is a way of settling the mind so we can focus on our spiritual self and ultimately source.

42:26within bhakti. Bhakti is a way of the spirit soul connecting with source. Who would say a sorcerer? That's what a sorcerer is, isn't it? Spirit soul connecting with source. And there's a process to doing it. And when we think of yoga, we think about physical practice and it's important to take care of your body. But if I'm taking care of my body merely to like endorse my ego, which is the reason why a lot of people go to the gym, there's a line between I'm taking care of my body because I don't want to be a couch potato. You get a certain type of good feeling of showing up on a regular basis to, you know, exercise or to breathe or going to the sauna.

43:05But there can be a certain point where you're doing this to cement yourself tighter to the body. So in a spiritual paradigm, the body is a gift. It's not you. It's a gift that you have. and if you were to lend me your bicycle and I gave it back to you trashed, I wouldn't be a good friend. So our bodies should be taken care of. But within the yoga system, the emphasis for the teacher should be always encouraging you to see yourself underneath the body and the mind. And in Bhakti, we use certain practices to reconnect to source and to see myself as a spiritual being. And the kind of practices we use are mantra meditation, Japa, which is Indian rosary, where you're chanting divine sound, ritual, which can be worship of spiritual forms of deity.

43:58It's through kirtan, through singing, which is basically you're singing and calling divinity into your life and even dancing. And it's interesting because things like singing and dancing, it's like you can't figure them out. Like you can't try to like put that under some type, bring it into the lab and try to figure out what is, but there's something transformative about singing and dancing that when we do kirtan, which is a call and response chanting of sacred sounds or sonic meditation, you can see a transformation happen in people and people will share their experience there. They'll, I don't know what happened, but I just started crying.

44:46And it has a, I call it a scrubbing bubbles effect. Remember that commercial for scrubbing bubbles? It was like, spray it on and it cleans your bathtub. But the scrubbing bubbles on the consciousness, they say. The idea is it's a pure soul theology that you're not born sinful. You're not born broken or dented. You're actually pure. but for lifetimes of bad choices, that's the sun of the soul gets covered in the same way a window of your old barn gets covered by dirt and dust and grime. So the mantras have a scrubbing effect on the consciousness, scrubbing effect on the heart, scrubbing effect on the mind, not to recreate you, but to uncover you.

45:33so more than like preaching a religion this is something you could do in the privacy of your own home you don't like religion i get that makes sense so religion takes people sometimes in crazy ways in the privacy of your home you can sit we use harry krishna maha mantra or maha means like a great like a mahatma maha mantra where you chant on malas or beads and you chant as if you're calling divinity into your life. The sounds have effect. And that's a huge part of all spiritual culture, especially from the East. The sounds we hear have the greatest effect of transformation. I think it's safe to say you can analyze that.

46:17You can hear, there can be sounds. We can listen to YouTube or CNN or Fox that makes us like angry. After you turn off that? I'm angry now at the world. I'm angry at this enemy. Then there's sounds that sort of uplift us. You know, I always like to start like an interview and this isn't like forced or manipulative. This is genuine. I meditate on appreciating the person that I'm with. And so sounds of appreciation, of glorification of another person. That's something we don't learn in high school. In high school, I learned how to take everybody down, cut people down, cut them down to size, make myself look better.

46:59But there's spiritual sounds where you start to appreciate another person, appreciate your parents. And if you walk through that world of gratitude, of appreciating, of not complaining, that changes your landscape. So there's positive and negative sounds. And then there's actually transcendental sounds. And the entire Vedic system deals with a refined, refined sound, actually. In Bhakti Yoga, we use this one to actually transcend the body. These mantras to transcend the body and to connect with source. The very basic ones I said were like negative sounds, like gossip, positive sounds, appreciation.

47:37But the whole Vedic culture uses all these other interesting sounds. There's mantras you can chant for abundance, mantras you can chant for progeny. or I was taking a handful of students to this one temple where I knew one of the priests. And he was a young man from this seminal succession of priests. And he said, Raghunath, if any of your ladies want to get pregnant, my older brother can help. And I was laughing to myself. All the women were like, what? But the idea was that, yeah, they just know mantras and yagyas to perform. that if you have a problem, sometimes women have a hard time having a baby.

48:17There's different, we can help with that. Yeah, it's fascinating that over many centuries, this culture has figured out certain sounds that have a variety of impacts on the human vessel's ability to connect with the divine and how they determined that. And not just the divine. Like that wasn't a divine, that was reaching out to higher beings, to the devas, to, you know, just for some material benefit, like having a child, like having a child. And that's a whole another facet of Indian understanding of devas and devis or higher beings for giving you material prosperity. In bhakti, we're not asking for stuff.

48:59You know, we don't pray to Vishnu or to Krishna for what we want. We pray for, give me what we need, which is a very scary prayer sometimes. Sometimes give me what I need because sometimes what I need is not what I want. Sometimes I have to pray, help free me from my desires because my desires can cause me lots of trouble. Sure. But yoga fundamentally means to yoke, right? It is this idea of how do we take this human form and connect it with something transcendent? And these practices and all these different traditions, the bhakti tradition that you just shared, are really about preparing the body or orienting the body into a state in which it becomes more receptive to that.

49:51Sure. And it creates a new mind. That's what's happening. The gross things that we do initially. Okay, you know what? I'm getting, this is what I tell my kids, there is no good that can come from alcohol. There's no good. there's no good i have certain ones that i say on a regular basis like my mom used to say things to me on a regular basis and thank god she did because they stuck with me like never take drugs that was my old brooklyn mother just like putting that in my ear thousands of times usually that ends up creating the opposite effect sometimes it does it depends how it's delivered yeah but yes i always say you know no good's gonna come from alcohol you guys no good your highest self is not going to come from that.

50:33You don't need it. And if you say, well, no, it doesn't affect me. Hey, you should see what you're going to be like without it. You can be able to do much more. And some people say, well, it's not a big deal. I just have a glass of wine with dinner. And some people, a glass of wine with dinner doesn't hurt them, but it might hurt a person that looks up to you that can't have one glass of wine. Because some people can't have one glass of wine. They need seven glasses of wine with their dinner. They can't be normal in the world. They have to be extreme because that's somehow, I'm wired to be a little extreme myself.

51:07Just the idea of, you know, yoking the body, connecting the human vessel to something more divine and self-transcendent. What I was saying earlier, what we do on a regular basis creates us and our morning rituals. And I'm sure you have a whole set of morning rituals, but our morning rituals creates us as well. and in bhakti there's a real emphasis on morning rituals and they're slightly different towards the person and then if you start getting a taste for them because like some people like say okay i gotta run every day you're like what the hell i can't run i'm gonna wake up and run but after a while you get it's like a taste for it like now i want to run i'm eager to do it so in bhakti there's morning rituals and when you get a taste for doing it for five minutes for 10 minutes for 15 minutes or sit there for two hours of, you know, concentrated, focused meditation.

52:00When you get a taste for it, then it starts to bleed into your evening rituals. Then you want evening rituals. You don't want to wind down. You know, my father used to wind down, you know, with hard liquor. You know, he had seven kids. He was a school teacher. And that's how he would wind down, sit in the dark and just drink alcohol. God bless him. Yeah. And God bless my father. He's a great guy, actually. but we want to take those morning rituals and we want to add an evening ritual as well. And then what's happened is you sandwiched in your day and then everything you've done in the morning and the evening start to happen in the course of your thoughts in the day and they affect how you're going to move throughout the day.

52:43I think it's safe to say in my life that if I start off with the strong morning rituals, that's changing the way I treat everybody, treat myself, the words that come out of my mouth. If I start off bad for some reason or another, it's affected me all day long. So what is that morning ritual? The good one or the bad one? The good one. Oh, the good one for myself? Yeah. The good one for myself. I'll show you my abbreviated one today. My abbreviated one was we woke up from traveling and we basically got here, had an hour to take a break, and then we went to dinner last night. But I wanted to have some peace of mind.

53:24Now, when I get back, I'm going to take a red-eye tonight, and I'm going to play a show tomorrow night. So I've got to be like, okay, I've got to take care of this body because I can't work like I used to work when I was even, you know, 38 or something like that. So this morning, I just sat in a focus place for 32 minutes and just chanted on Joppa. Actually, at first I sat in bed and prayed to previous teachers, teachers that I've never met but I've read their works. And I prayed for them to give me some type of intelligence to sort of work through my body in the same way they've changed me, that I can say something that can lift up somebody else.

54:08So there was a, I'd say about 20 minutes of that. And Joppa are the prayer beads. Shabba is like an Indian rosary, which is like a refined type of just like focused, where it's not just like you're clearing the mind. You're actually inviting spiritual sound, inviting spiritual God into your heart and to asking for direction in the course of the day. And then I did a pranayama for 12 minutes. And then I did as cold as a California shower can be. uh-huh so it's sort of and then i did like before that i did 15 handstands back to back there you go that was my breath work cold shower this is like very much an ancient version of a very modern you know of the moment protocol these guys whether it's like hooverman or joe rogan or they're all talking about this stuff that i learned in the ashram we take cold baths every morning intermittent fasting the stuff we did in the ashram the thing is now they're really into the science about it.

55:11And I appreciate that. But I just sort of, I don't know why, but I just had faith in these yogis from ancient traditions because I had an interest in metaphysics and mystics and hermits and saints. So I would read these books as an 18-year-old about the life of yogis and autobiography of a yogi and Swami Rama and Swami Prabhupada and their lifestyle and their life. And I thought, oh, I could do that. I could try that. I could adopt a little bit of that into my life. But now, you know, here he is 40 years later, and these are things are actually in the conversation because I think truth is universal.

55:49I don't think any religion or any country has a monopoly on God or has a monopoly on truth or has a monopoly on wisdom. It's all there. And it will go back to this, I'm not a body. I'm going to sit in this cold water. The yogis of ancient times would sit in the Ganges in the winter when it's freezing. Not for the health benefits or the inflammation, you know, gets rid of inflammation and stuff like that. It does all that too. Just like your yoga practice. It has a very positive effect on the body. what it really does like sitting in a cold plunge is you start to understand I'm not these sensations I'm not my mind I can make this miserable by going it's so cold I can give meaning to the experience or I can just notice a sensation and that's I can take outside of that experiment into my world.

56:48Oh, this is happening to me. Oh, my heart was broken. Oh, I got so much good fortune here. Oh, this person betrayed me. And I can just say, this is happening to me. What am I going to add to this? Am I going to add some meaning to this? Or do I just see this? These are things are just coming and going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's all these on-ramps to receptivity to all these practices. And currently, science and all the kind of studies around sauna and cold plunge and fasting and all of that connect with a lot of people who have no relationship to anything beyond, you know, the kind of immediate material world, right?

57:28But there is something really - Which is a good thing. I don't want to poo-poo on that. It's fine. But I I see them as like portals of entry that set people in motion on a path towards the possibility of a higher state of awareness. And when you look at any religious tradition, they all have these strains of renunciant practices and asceticism that are really about getting outside your comfort zone or interrupting the pattern of your life so that you can be more present and you can connect with something bigger than yourself, whether it's a cold plunge or a fast or a silent meditation. Like these are all uncomfortable practices, right?

58:10But they're all oriented around developing a greater spiritual receptivity. A greater spiritual receptivity or just to separate yourself from your conditioning and your mind. I mean, nothing separates you more from the mind than choosing not to eat for a week. Right. And when your mind is saying, okay, it's time to eat, it's time to eat. And then you're getting some sensation and then you realize, I don't need to eat. I don't even need to eat to feel like I'm in peak performance right now. Have you ever run on a fast? I have. Yeah. I mean, you realize you can do much more than you think, which is empowering.

58:48And also, it connects you with the power of discipline to change your life. And, you know, you're somebody for whom, like, discipline goes way back, whether it's the straight-edge lifestyle as a kid or, like, martial arts and jujitsu. I mean, you were doing all of that with Eddie Bravo and Joe Rogan like way, way back in the day and realizing like, oh, this thing that you do that requires that level of discipline and focus plays out or translates into the spiritual realm as well with these morning rituals and the way that you kind of approach your daily life. So talk a little bit about how discipline spills over into the bhakti yoga lifestyle and how that can be a vehicle for growth and evolution.

59:36You touched on jiu-jitsu and I was thinking one of the beautiful parts of jiu-jitsu or just grappling on a regular basis with people with all different body sizes. You know, I'm not that big. So sometimes a big guy just laying on top of you, sweating and stinking on top of you. you don't fight out of rage. You fight like, if you see like great jujitsu fighters, they're moving slow and methodically. It's not something when you think of these guys just raging on each other, like road rage. It's actually, it's like a mindfulness. I can't describe it anyway. You're actually mindfully like a warrior would be training.

1:00:16And that's a huge difference because once you act out of rage or out of, you know, in the yogic system, they call it a rajas. or rajaguna it means you're acting with like a passion or of it's not done with a clarity of intelligence just done without intelligence behind it almost the intelligence is locked up so if you can do it in a very calm mind and that's why a breathing practice or a pranayama practice which i've had for a long time is it gets you in that place no matter where you are even in great times of stress, even in a physical fight. If you practice yoga on a regular basis every day, and you're practicing deep breathing while you're doing, that follows you through the course of a day.

1:01:00What we do in those rituals, it follows you through the course of the day. Just saying earlier with our thoughts, your question was? The relationship between discipline and spiritual growth. Yeah. First of all, there's a feeling of any type of discipline. You feel a type of integrity that comes with showing up on a regular basis. And integrity or lack of integrity affects the mind. You try to tell a kid to, you know, be a good kid and get out there and don't be depressed. Hey, if you're not doing integrity-driven acts, of course your mind is going to be sad. Of course there's going to be self-loathing.

1:01:42We can't forget the initial thing. If you want some self-worth, You got to act in a worthy way. And this is a problem with, you know, raising teenagers is kids get addicted to things and get addicted to habits that aren't worthy. And therefore, there's a lot of self-loathing. There's suicide in teenagers and adults. So integrity is not the goal in our spiritual life, but integrity is a foundation. And it's hard because culture is is luring you away from integrity every minute. It's like interest only, zero down. How close can we get to? I guess one Christian priest said, how close can I get to sin without sinning?

1:02:26You know what I mean? It's like we're always getting tempted to the edge and culture will do that to us and then chastise us for crossing that line immediately for crossing that line. But we've created a whole culture that is trying to throw us off the tracks. And so it is extra difficult. And back to that thing where if you associate with people or a community, which you have here and which we're trying to create with our podcast and our people, is community that lifts us as well. And the community emboldens you when you're weak. And then you lift them when one of their, they use the analogy of a twig.

1:03:08Easy to snap a twig, hard to snap 50 twigs. you know so we're weak we're fallible and we want to be around people that lift us higher and i think that that's an important premise in what we're doing and um to recognize that you know we are frail and we are weak and we we need positive uplifting people as friends and within our community and all this stuff the integrity the community that helps us get to our next level of, okay, now they're not going to do the work for you. They're just going to be there as an environment. And in that environment, then our own spiritual life can grow. And that's sort of like a one-on-one thing, God.

1:03:51I can give my kids the facility. I can give them the appropriate household. I can give them the appropriate foods and, hey, you guys don't watch that media. Don't consume that stuff. But ultimately, everyone's got to fly their own plane. There's no 12-step program or Catholic church or anything that's going to save you. They're just going to provide an environment for you or an ashram. I've seen people come to an ashram and do all types of nonsense or live a duplicitous life where they have a public presentation and a private life as well. And really that spiritual growth, that comes from you just opting in to, I'm going to be my authentic self today.

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1:06:11One of the things that trips me up or one of my weaknesses, I mean, I consider myself a pretty disciplined person. But all of the noticeable growth in my life is really the result of pain or being backed into a corner in which, you know, I had no other choice. and I'm in a situation right now, probably somewhat analogous to, you know, how you're interfacing with life where things are really good. My kids are doing great. I've got this thing here that's very fulfilling. It feels meaningful. I know that other people out in the world get meaning from it and I love it and I get up in the morning excited to do it.

1:06:54But on some level, I'm stuck. there's no impetus to continue to grow. Fundamentally, I know I'm here to grow, to evolve, but it's very difficult to do that when you're not being pressured to do it. You were talking about how the community can make you stronger. It can hold you accountable as well, or as a mirror to show you where you still require some level of evolution. And this is like a conversation that I'm always in with my wife, right? Who's a much more spiritually committed person than I am. I still have my ego rooted in the material world in ways that I'm working on, but I find my ambition or my proclivity to care too much about what random people I've never met think about what I'm doing influence me in ways that I really don't like.

1:07:56Yeah, it's amazing how with all the validation we get one rogue comment on a social media like, oh, it hurts so much. I've gotten better at it, but yeah. Yeah. It's a thing. And so as much as I can sit here and say, oh, this podcast is an act of Seva and like I'm here, you know, and there is that aspect of it. But these things are not binary. Like I can identify where my ego comes into play here in ways that I know need some work and some redress. So how do you think about ego and ambition as somebody who has lived the monk life but isn't a renunciant? You're in the world and you're doing things and creating experiences for people and in some ways very much straddled between these two worlds.

1:08:45you know first of all i want to address your humility or you just being being genuine when you're in it it's hard to notice it but the fact that you're showing up on a regular basis it's like the hands of a clock it doesn't appear like you're changing because you're it's just me doing it again but you're changing i bet if you look five years ago at yourself you're a whole different person today and i think the ego is also not an on-off switch as well. I'm going to turn off my ego now, and I'm going to, but the more of that external ego identifies with the genuine self. There's a real self that wants to serve divinity and other living beings.

1:09:26Once that's in line, that's the perfection of the ego in this world. We're not going to abolish the ego. We wouldn't exist. But when the ego exists within serving God, serving the divine, whatever you want to call your higher power, or in serving humanity, and I'm and say I'm going to make it wider than humanity, all living entities, then that's a beautiful place to be. And it might appear like, okay, you know, you've got all this and you've got, everything's are going well, et cetera, like that. That's okay. You don't have to, you don't have to like kill your family and move to a cave to get rid of your ego.

1:10:03That's not going to work. You have to love and you love and you don't, you understand because everything is going good. and I think for most people, I don't think for you, most people, good karma can ruin their life. Good karma could make them think, yeah, the material world is a great place. What's bad with the material world? I'm getting all my desires met. And it becomes a stunt to their growth. It becomes a stunt. It keeps you stuck. Generally, I always say, give it time. Reversals happen. Sure. These things are all very impermanent. I think you do this too. We cultivate exactly what you just said.

1:10:39these things are impermanent. And so when the reversal happens, which it inevitably does, you're a little bit more prepared and it becomes more of a lesson and less of a bitterness. In the same way we use that example, why is he cutting down my garden? He's not cutting down your garden. He's enhancing the growth right now. I had the beautiful opportunity. One of my students who I was very close to and lived locally, got cancer and wasn't sure. And he didn't get through it, so to speak, physically, but spiritually it got through it. And I had the ability to witness him slowly letting go of his attachments.

1:11:25And he was just attached to God. I grew through so much of his experience. I had to be his sort of life coach, death coach, eternality coach. And I never thought I could do such a thing. I was always a little freaked out about what happens if a friend dies. And he was a young man, married with kids, and good looking. And, you know, he was, when I would go away, he would assist, he would sub my classes for me as a yoga teacher and done everything right, so to speak. And to be with him and to watch him grow through that process was so beautiful to witness that it inspired faith in me, that things do reverse sometimes on a dime.

1:12:11And what we're doing on a regular basis is preparing us for that. And we understand that actually there is no loss. There is no loss. There's just gain. that loss or that bitterness or that why me-ness or that victimhood, that's going to plague everybody in this universe. Everybody gets that. Once you sign up for a material body, you're going to get that. Are you going to run with that? Are you going to relinquish that and see my life as blessed? And those who've opted into seeing my life as blessed, they live a blessed life because they're seeing those blessings happen at any moment. And those are the people I want in my life.

1:12:51Have you seen people go from being victim mindset oriented to having that sense of being blessed in the way that you just described? Like, can you make that leap? Are some people just wired to be pessimistic and, you know, woe is me and bad things happen to me and it's never going to change to that place of gratitude and understanding? I think we are wired certain ways. with good attitudes and bad attitudes. And by inviting people into our lives, just like people every time they turn on the Rich Roll podcast, they're inviting you into their life. They're inviting your guests into their life. So by inviting people into our lives, it sort of opens maybe a different door that was bolted shut.

1:13:41So I think it's important to be like really, really careful who we invite into our life because some people are like creating real problems in our life and we're inviting them randomly by whatever I tune into my podcast or my radio. And we're inviting that into our life. We're inviting lyrics of songs into our life. We're inviting media or movies and attitudes that go with those movies. You know, the characters, the archetypes of these movies. And we're like, oh, I like that guy. That guy's cool and tough. I want to be like that guy. We're inviting that into our life. And so as we refine ourselves in our spiritual practice, we're very refined, just like people are refined, with, you know, checking ingredients.

1:14:22Does this have gluten? Does this have refined sugar, high fructose corn syrup? You get very refined about like, what am I putting in my ears today? What am I putting in my mind today? What am I putting in my thoughts today? And I have seen people who've done a little, they've taken a little in and it's changed them. And in this particular case, this friend, student of mine who, who left his body, he fought it. And when I say fought, I meant had some bitterness. But every time I'd see him, he'd go with, he'd be in a good spirits and we'd sing together. It was part of our practice. We'd sing together and we'd read together.

1:15:00And there was one time I came in and he was broken. And he just started crying to me. And he said, Raghunath, why would God do this to me? I've got two little girls and you know Raghunath the guy who has the answer for everything I just said let's read and maybe we'll get an answer ever do one of those things let's read and the answer is there and this is the beauty of bhakti actually it's not just us reaching up it's also energy reaching towards you. It's not like we're just desperate reaching. Hey, God, help me. It's a higher power, a source reaching out to you, embracing you. So this is what we read.

1:15:57We opened up. It was a purport of this book, the Srimad Bhagavatam. It said, for a person practicing bhakti, there is no bad karma. Because that's what he first said. Why is my karma so bad? This has happened to me. He said, for a person practicing about, there is no bad karma. But if it's seen that there is some reversal in their life, you can't get more of a reversal than you get cancer and you're going to lose everything that you've worked for. If they were seen there's some reversal in their life, that is Lord Krishna accelerating their spiritual practice. And I witnessed this guy accelerate his spirit.

1:16:36I go, and we looked at each other like, wow. This isn't bad karma. See, in a material concept, we look at our astrological chart. This is good. Oh, I have a malefic planet here. Like right now I'm going into like a Saturn period, but it's a strong Saturn. So, you know, you can wear a particular gem and you can counter out a malefic planet. This is a whole weird, it appears weird to us. Well, it's the human compulsion to make judgment calls and value statements about things that happen. Like things happen. They are neither good nor bad until we decide they are so, right? And we create a narrative around that.

1:17:12And to like liberate yourself from even making that judgment call and the relief of being delivered this message right at the right time when it was needed most that like this is an acceleration of your growth. And, you know, whatever. There's comfort in that, obviously. and it is that thing you know and i've noticed it many times in my life uh and with so many of the people that i know in the recovery community it's that idea that like the higher power is always there the more receptive you are to it the more open you are to it um you will begin to notice it showing up in your life in the ways that are needed to accelerate that growth and that evolution but it's a subtle attention.

1:17:55It's a subtle, like sometimes it's a whisper. Yeah. When the mind stills. You'll get clobbered if you keep ignoring it at some point, right? Sure. Yeah. It's a whisper. Sometimes it's loud. Sometimes it's not a whisper. Sometimes it's real loud. Like no more of this. No more of this. Like the universe just says, this part of your life is over. If you don't see that as God's hand, the universe's hand, I keep saying the universe, but there was a G word at one time. You couldn't say the word God. I think people are just shifting a lot. Well, it's an interesting time. Like we are in this, you know, we live in a secular, Western democratic republic where religious and spiritual institutions for the most part are on the wane due to the higher priority that we have given higher institutions of learning and science as a vehicle for all knowledge.

1:18:46The path to total understanding is through science. Like that is sort of the kind of primary operating agreement or operating system of our culture. Meanwhile, so many people have had negative, bad experiences with religious institutions and spiritual traditions due to the fallibility of human beings and what happens when we organize around ideas and create institutions. And so we're bereft of spiritual connection. And you come along as somebody who has a powerful voice because of your musical background, you're able to connect with people in a way that other leaders of spiritual traditions perhaps are less capable.

1:19:28With that comes a responsibility. But it's also interesting because it comes in this package of Krishna consciousness, right? And I know as a kid what it was like when I saw the Hare Krishnas at the airport or were congregating in the park with the weird tuft of hair and the things and banging the, you know, and you're like, I don't know what to make of that. But like, there wasn't anything inside of me that was like, I want to go hang out with them. I want to be like that. Yeah, I was like, did they let them out of the mental institution? Like, what is going on? Yeah. So as a messenger, as this vehicle for spiritual awareness, and this also awareness that you have of this position that you hold amidst a culture that prioritizes things that are orthogonal to spiritual growth.

1:20:15Like how do you connect with people for whom the idea of anything spiritual is met with, you know, a sort of cringeworthy repulsion? You must write a lot because when you speak, it's like you're reading from a book. You're buying time to answer the question. That's what you're doing. I find that there is a desire for spirituality in this secular world. And people do get to this point where they realize there is a limit of science and there's things that we can't know. And people have had experiences that are like, this is beyond rational, yet I've had this experience. And I think it's also important to conclude that just because we've been dealt counterfeit bills and every time we mess around with them, we get in trouble.

1:21:14The cops come in, this is not a real hundred dollar bill. I've been dealt counterfeits and I've been prosecuted every time I've used counterfeits. Just because I've been dealt counterfeit hundred dollar bills doesn't mean there's not a real hundred dollar bill. Just because I've heard, oh, there's corruption here and this priest did that and that guy's a pedophile and this guy was misled and this guy started a cult and this guy was not sincere. That doesn't mean there's not a genuine spirituality just because either people have done it wrong or people have been duplicitous or an organization was tweaked or broken.

1:21:52That doesn't mean there's not a genuine spiritual truth. That's living. that's living and alive and affecting both you and I right now. Again, no ashram, no church, no synagogue, no mosque owns it. You know, spiritual truth is for all people of all times. It stands the test of time. And it's sort of the gold standard of like how we want to move in this world. And even if everything was like wiped out, somehow there would still be light there that people would magnetically move towards like a true north. you know I've had to meet with it in different circles in the yoga community it was pretty easy you want to learn yoga I'm going to teach you the whole thing of yoga here you came to my workshop this is the origins of the yoga system in the punk scene it was a little bit more difficult because you're dealing with you know atheists and how dare you bring God to the punk scene this is yeah this is a scene where we do it you know there are no rules and then I just have to say well if there are no rules then I can do whatever I want some people will say that music was founded on it's a glorification of higher powers.

1:22:58So I'm just putting God back into music, whereas you've artificially taken spirituality out of music and made it political or complainy, et cetera. And that was my argument with the punk community when my second band Shelter started when we were all monks. And I was like, yeah, if there are no rules, if that's your mantra that there are no rules, Well, okay, then embrace me. And if there are going to be some rewriting of some of those rules, you're one of the OGs, right? Shouldn't you have a little bit of latitude to write rather than the guy who went to a couple shows and has lots of opinions?

1:23:39I've used that argument too. Hey, you know what? I can do whatever I want. I grew up on the music you were listening to. So if everyone's going to change the rules. But I love that idea of God or the divine being the origin story of music itself. Right? Yeah. Wasn't music crafted in the beginning to connect us to something bigger? And there is that magical unknown that happens when you hear music that brings us together and allows us to have some kind of transcendent experience. Yes. and being a, quote, performer, so to speak, in a band. I had this great experience. I think I mentioned this in my book too, but I'll just share it again because it was a powerful, ever have someone say one thing to you and just changes everything in your life?

1:24:29So when I first would go visit an ashram, there was one mentor of mine. We'd have very spiritual conversations. Every morning I'd go to the ashram at 7 a.m. and we'd do a morning singing and then we'd have breakfast together. And it was just, I wish I had all these questions and answers recorded because it was a real spiritual dialectic back and forth every day. And then one day he asked me a question, what kind of guitar does your guitar player play? And I thought, wow, that's the first time he ever asked me like a regular question, like about material life. And I said, well, he plays a Gibson Les Paul.

1:25:06Why do you ask? He said, oh, I just curious because I used to play the guitar. but I don't anymore because it's Maya, meaning it's like illusion. I said, wait a second. What do you mean it's Maya? You always told me that you don't give up what you do. You take what you do and use it in a spiritual way. He said, but for me, the guitar was Maya. And I said, wait a second. You told me, and I've read in the Bhagavad Gita that we don't, like Arjuna doesn't give up his fighting. He just fights in service. You don't give up what you do. That's the whole essence of the Bhagavad Gita here. He said, yes, but for me, the guitar was Maya.

1:25:46And I wouldn't let him off the hook on this. And he said, okay, next time you're on stage, see if you're doing this to serve God or to be God. Because I argued, well, you told me I should do music as a service. And so he said, yeah, see if you're doing it to serve God or be God. And immediately, I was like, it was one of those, what's that movie, A Sixth Sense, when everything like, I see dead people. What was that? Yeah, yeah. Everything changes at the end, moving like, everyone's, the guy's been dead this whole time. I was like, oh my God, my whole life, I've just tried to be God. Whether it's a performance, whether it's a friendship, whether it's a, you know, relationship with a woman, I've just tried to use whatever I got to manipulate the universe to worship me.

1:26:34It was like my first step out of my ego. And I was like, that statement changed everything in my life. Am I doing this to serve God or be God? And it was an ongoing theme in my life. Because once you see yourself as part of something bigger and not trying to have you as the center, you lose a manipulative edge. You don't want to be a manipulator. You want to be a person that extends your hand, extends your love to people. And I could still be on stage doing what I do, but in a whole different frame of mind. I could still be in a relationship with a person. I could still raise kids. I can do all the things I've always done, but in a different way.

1:27:18And I tell you, that different mindset changes everything. It's all in your relationship to it. The Gibson is Maya or a tool depending upon what's going on in your soul, right? and it's not an on-off switch. The same can be said for this microphone sitting in front of me. Some days I'll catch myself too much in my ego or looking at all the metrics and thinking of plotting and thinking about how I'm gonna do this or that. But fundamentally, I always have to return to, this is an act of service. Like, how can I be of service? And this is what I was referring to earlier. It's like, it's an ongoing thing that I have to always try to develop some hyper vigilance around and catch myself.

1:28:06Hands on the clock. Because it is a commercial pursuit and all the stuff and all of the, you know, everything that goes into it. It's another version of you getting up on stage. Are you doing this to glorify the self or are you doing this as an act of service to others? And you'll know what you're doing when the performance is over. Because when the performance is over, and I've had that experience too, performing in front of thousands of people. And if I did it in the mood of I'm the center, when I got off stage, there'd be a lull. You're no longer important and you'll want to like seek out importance.

1:28:43And that's why I can understand how people move right to drugs, move right to, you know, reckless sex, move anything to keep the dopamine flowing. But if you do it in the mood of service, when you come up that stage, and I've had that experience too, because again, it's not an on-off switch. It's a moment-to-moment check-in with reality. You get off stage and you're completely peaceful. No matter how active and crazy and jumping and kicking and stage diving you were doing, you come off like a sage. I also wanted to address that this person who said, I gave up my guitar playing because for him it was Maya.

1:29:16I thought it took a type of maturity for him to realize there are certain things we just can't do. We just choose. You know what? This is too overwhelming for me. And I'm just not going to go there. I'm not going to try to like, I'm going to push it through it. There's certain things like, you know, if you're addicted to gambling, you just don't go to Vegas. You just draw a line and say, I'm not going to hang in Vegas. I'm not going to look at succulents in Vegas. I'm not going to, because there's a good vegan restaurant in Vegas. I'm not going to go on a hike in the desert. Rationalize it. Yeah, ways to rationalize it.

1:29:47Because to have that foresight that there are people, places, and things that are massive first dominoes that are going to knock over and are going to take me down a dark tunnel. It's good to have that insight. I'm thinking about something that just came up in the news the other day, which is this news story that seemed to like really create a lot of energy, which was this story about Steve-O. He relates this story about how Bill Maher invited him on his podcast and Steve said, hey, listen, if I do it, can you just not smoke pot while I'm sitting across from you because I'm coming up on 16 years of sobriety.

1:30:26And Bill Maher's team said, no, that's a deal breaker. Like, because that's part of like what he does or whatever. And it created this new cycle. And there was a contingent of people who were claiming that Steve was just being, you know, difficult or something like that. Like, oh, you know, can't he just show up and do this? But I think it's a great show of strength for him to say, my sobriety is the most important thing. I'm not gonna put myself in a position where that would be threatened unnecessarily. It's a different version of the Gibson story to say, this is just something I can't do, or I'm going to take a precautionary measure to not put myself in a position where I'm going to threaten that spiritual connection that's keeping me on this path that is the most important thing for me.

1:31:12It is an act of bravery, and it can come off like ego. Like, I don't go where there's, you know, these toxic things. I'm sure if a person's been through some type of recovery or rehab or 12-step program, they're not going in with that attitude. They're going with, this is my boundary. I've created this boundary with my sponsor. I've created this boundary for my own personal accountability. I know it might be not the best choice for my career, but this is what I'm going to do. That's incredibly brave. I don't know the intention, but I always give the people the benefit of the doubt. And I've had to do that myself with certain things.

1:31:44I just don't go there. I just don't do that. I don't put myself in a very compromised situation. Not because I don't trust you, but there's human foibles and triggers that I suffer with, and I'm just, I'm not going to go there. Yeah, but ultimately those guardrails and those boundaries create more freedom than restriction. I think there's this idea that if you do that, you're going to be living your life within a very narrow lane, but by doing that, you open yourself up to a wider variety of experiences than you would have otherwise. Yeah, they say you get a ding on your car by hitting that guardrail, but it could save you from the greatest catastrophe from going over the going over the side so yeah and I think there are people who are 20 years sober they don't need a tight leash because they're not triggered anymore you know if you're 20 years sober from heroin and someone offers you heroin there's a space between stimulus and response would you like heroin and you'd have to think there's more space now I can think well last time I did that I lost my family I lost my job i lost my fortune no i'm not gonna thank you for offering no i don't do that i don't do that but in a very uh new recovery uh state of your life hey do you want heroin there's no space between stimulus yes i do well i thought you don't do it anymore i i know but if you got it i'll take it yeah so yeah i think we're trying to and the yoga system has that to get our consciousness no matter what path of yoga you're on to get your consciousness to a point of sattva guna or this consciousness where there is stimulus and then there's a space before response comes right in.

1:33:24No, I know that's my pattern. I'm not gonna choose that pattern anymore. It never served me. That helps everybody. That adage of, or that notion of, are you serving the ego? Are you serving the self? Or are you serving God? Is a recurring theme throughout the book and it shows up in the epilogue with this crazy, beautiful story that you share about this dentist that you sit next to on the way to India. Can you tell that story? It was a good story. It was a real story. It was sort of afterwards, after I was married, me and my daughter were on our way to India. I like to talk to people. I don't know if you picked up on that.

1:34:06I just like to talk. I get it. My job today is getting out of the way, Raghunath. What's that? I'm just getting out of the way. I apologize. The floor is yours. my friend. No, it's good. That's why you're here. And I like to talk to anybody. I don't, I don't care if a person's famous or I just like to talk to people. And I like to talk to people on planes because it's sort of almost like free therapy. You can just like talk and they can share with you. And, and so I especially like Indians because Indians have generally an interesting story of how they got to the United States. And because I'm a fan of the Bhagavad Gita and Vedic culture.

1:34:41I always like to pick their brain and see where they're at. And then I tell my story. So I was sitting on an aisle and across the aisle was a collegiate, you know, dressed in, I can't remember, UPenn or something outfit. He's probably 24 years old or something. And we started talking. I said, where are you going now? Are we going to India? And we started talking about his parents. I said, did he grow up in America? He goes, yeah, I grew up in America, My parents came over and they lived a very, very difficult life and they struggled to put me and my brother to college. And I go to the University of Pennsylvania now.

1:35:17My brother's a dentist and I just graduated. I'm going to be a dentist. I said, oh, that's great. He said something like, my brother was a dentist. And I said, oh, what do you mean he was a dentist? And we were sort of happily engaged and his face sort of shifted. I said, what do you mean he was a dentist? He goes, well, that's why we're going to India right now. My brother has become a sannyas. And sannyas means it's a stage of life where you give up material life. You give up your material identity. And it generally happens traditionally when you're elderly because you realize, like, I'm not of this world.

1:35:54There's a whole system in India for this stage where I'm not of this world. I'm with God. I've been training myself from childhood. Then I got involved in material activities. I had kids, drove the kids to soccer, et cetera. But now I'm an old man or old lady. And now it's just me and God. And so he was, his brother was doing it at like 26, which is, you know, young saints. They happen in traditions all over the world. And I started feeling for the parents because I'm a parent. And at the same time, I want my kids to be spiritual, but would I want my kid to leave me? And so all these emotions started flooding through.

1:36:32Right, because part of it is you're renouncing your, like, status and place in the Western world, but you're also cutting yourself off from your family, right? It's a goodbye. It's a goodbye. In his particular tradition, he said, we're going to India to wish him well, but we'll never see him again. I was getting all my fatherly buttons, which is my small eye identity. Again, I'm a dad. I started going, oh, I said, how do you feel about that? Were you close to him? He said, yeah, we were very close. I said, are you upset? He goes, I was upset. And then he started sort of lecturing me in sort of a beautiful, noble way.

1:37:10I didn't quote look spiritual. He didn't know that I was on a spiritual path myself. But he said, you know, in my culture, we believe there is good and great. And so to be a good dentist and to be responsible, that's a good thing. But to find your spiritual calling, that's a great thing. so I had to sacrifice good for his greatness and now I've decided to move back in with my parents I was living in my own apartment moved back and I'm going to take care of my parents because they took care of me when I was vulnerable he goes this is another thing I don't like about your culture even though I grew up here he goes you neglect your parents and your parents have changed your diapers for you and taken care of you and you're vulnerable and it seems like no one takes care of their parents here and I just started feeling okay I'm gonna text my mother when I get off this plane and he just sort of lectured me heavy and I had an appreciation for that culture and so a lot of these old cultures in India still has it really intact where there is check and balances and there is a this conception of good and great and it made me reflect on my my life as dad and what I actually really want out of my kids.

1:38:26What do I want? Do I want my kids' success for my ego or do I want their success for their deeper connection? And I wondered how I'd react to such a thing too. He says, I just opened the last page of your book and he basically just says to you, quote, this is the problem nowadays in culture and it's ruining our planet. He said casually, confidently. People don't want to serve God. They want to be God. He paused, rearranged his sitting posture and looked more deeply at me. Wouldn't you agree? That's it, man, right? It's heavy. It is heavy. And that's been an ongoing

1:39:13tap on my shoulder too. Yeah. Especially for a person like myself who's in the public eye and sort of got that entertainer karma, entertain a persona. When you want to entertain, you want people to like you, you want to give to people, checking in with your intention while you're doing it in the first place. And that changes everything. What else did you learn about yourself in the process of telling this story and writing the book? Again, I said it earlier that the idea of messengers, it's not like we're just reaching up. there's source reaching down in india they give it the analogy of the the monkey holds on to the mother that's us reaching up but the kitten is being saved by the mother the mother's grabbing by the nape of the neck so there's it's two things happening when we start to make these personal declarations to god to the universe to sometimes people just break fall on my knees oh god what do you want from me that type of destitution is a beautiful thing it's like that gift of pain that gift of destitution where you have nowhere else to go and so it's not just you reaching up the the universe starts to send or starts to inform and starts to direct that's a very real thing and it can't you can't necessarily that doesn't necessarily show up in a lab, but it shows up in your real world experience.

1:40:48That other world is a real world. And everyone can tap into it. You just have to want it. What would be an example of that in your life? See, the very beginning, when my father left his body, and I had a certain amount of success in my life with the music. And, you know, we all expect if you go down a specific path of success, of building community, I mean, I had that community when I was 22. We had hundreds of hundreds of kids would hang out together in New York City every weekend to do these, you know, all our friends, bands, shows and stuff like that. When you still felt like an emptiness in the soul.

1:41:32And then, of course, something as solid as your father dying, who was like a pillar in your life, it leaves you to this point of, now what do I do? And it's in that like destitution, you're left with these bigger questions like, who am I? Why am I here? What is success in this world? What is success in this world? When those questions come up, when my friend slash student left his body, you know, I could probably think of like things that happened yesterday because these, It's not like you're ever just put in that position once. Again and again, we're put in this crisis situation of destitution.

1:42:14You know, when I went through a divorce and I thought I was going to, you know, lose my house, when I was worried about my children, how they're going to react to that. 2007 when, you know, there was a real estate collapse and they declared bankruptcy and all these things. When all those types of things and you're so raw and you have nothing... you can have the option to resort to bitterness and sadness and victimhood, or you can extend your hands up, right? Like sometimes you'll go to a kirtan, and you'll see people just reaching their hands up as they're singing, because it's the mudra of trusting.

1:42:54I trust, just like a little child will reach his hands up to the father or mother, because they trust the mother and father. And if they don't know somebody that comes in the door, they'll hold on to the leg of the parent, like, who is this person? And so in those positions where you just sort of like reach your hands up, okay, now what do you want from me? In recovery, they would call it a deepening of surrender. Like are you willing when your back is up against the wall, this is your moment to really test your level of surrender. You're being asked to deepen that level of surrender. What are you willing to give up?

1:43:30How receptive are you? Truly. Yeah. you appear devastated and not cool and collected like you usually present yourself and um you know i'll give a shout out to jiva g if you know her you're gonna meet her i would love her but she does a thing called the bhakti recovery podcast which sort of grew out of a whole 12-step community from our wisdom of the sages community which is she does a bhakti bhakti podcast and we've known her since she was a teenager a young teenager from the upper east side but she was crazy and out of control shaven head six, 15 year old or 13 year old but she went through a hard path and got into drugs, everything crazy story and she went into recovery and got into bhakti and now she leads this very life-changing transformative bhakti recovery which is a beautiful group too so she always says to me Raghu, you can't save your face and your ass at the same time That's an old school tried and true one.

1:44:34It's a good one. That's a good one. And sometimes it's the beauty of destitution, I call it. Yeah. Not fun, though. It's not fun, but neither is being fake. That takes a lot of energy. Being fake is exhausting. For sure. as we kind of wind this down for somebody who's listening to this for whom these ideas are brand new they've never heard of bhakti yoga but perhaps they're suffering from the great affliction of being in the western modern society which is that we're on these hamster wheels chasing these things only to discover whether we succeed in achieving them or fall short of achieving them to understand that they're not delivering on the promise.

1:45:26The promise, of course, being a life of happiness and meaning and purpose. Eternal happiness in a temporary world. There has to be something else, Raghu. Where do you direct these people? How does one begin their spiritual odyssey or embark upon this journey of self-transcendence? Well, I think if they're listening to this podcast, they've already started. You fuel your mind with what you consume. So I love Radha Swamy's book. I like my philosophy peppered into a story. That's why I like all the Puranic stories of these archetypes of heroes and villains and gods and goddesses. But Radha Swamy's story, A Journey Home, autobiography of an American Swami, is such a great story about him going to India in the 60s and his search for truth and balance and God.

1:46:18And it's a beautiful story. And even if you're not a punk, My book is my story also. It's got philosophy peppered into it and our struggles because as different as we are, I'm a punk. Rana Swami was not a punk. And you could find other memoirs of people on their spiritual journey. They're not meant for you to become a punk. It's meant for you to find your struggles because as different as we are, we're all pretty similar too. We all struggle with heartbreak. We all struggle with hoping that some material success will give us internal fulfillment. We all struggle with trying to find eternal happiness in a temporary world.

1:46:56We all struggle sometimes in relationships. We struggle with this concept of purpose. And I find like in these spiritual memoirs, I found a little bit of myself in Radha Naswami's journey home. I'm like, okay, this is my journey. I didn't do it like he did. I'm never going to be his signature. He has his own signature. I have my own signature. and in that I feel like it can perhaps pose these questions and answers that will help a person on their own journey and of course you know the Bhagavad Gita which is a beautiful gold standard of spiritual truths yeah it's hard to just jump into that though it's hard for me it was for me I was really discouraged just because I felt like I was philosophical but just I couldn't go through all the words and the different language.

1:47:45So for me, just really hearing from people who are on a spiritual journey. Nowadays, there's so many good podcasts or there's so many good lectures on YouTube. It's the perfection of the information age. You can really pick out what you want to listen to and let that fill your ears and heart. Well, there's the precepts and the principles and the pillars of this tradition, but we learn through story and we learn best when that story is told by someone that has something relatable about them, some aspect of their story that we can key in on. Maybe the facts of that person's life, like your upbringing is very different from mine, but I can connect with the emotional sensibility and kind of what you went through that led you on that path.

1:48:34And I think that's what really solidifies somebody's connection to a new idea. And then they can read the Bhagavad Gita or they can go deeper, right? But storytelling is really powerful. And then the precepts are so powerful because they actually are very practical. It's like an operating manual for life. It's not just theory or some kind of ethereal idea that's interesting. It actually grounds you and helps you make better decisions about how to direct not only your actions, but also how you do that inventory on your own behavior. For example, to evaluate, where does my ego sit with this? Love that.

1:49:17I love that phrase. My inventory, my personal inventory, taking my inventory. Don't take my inventory. It's such a good phrase. Well, that's all recovery speak. Yeah. It's so good. But yeah, getting rid of those essential things. These things are contaminating my consciousness, contaminating my mind. I'm going to cut those out of my life. And that's where I was talking about earlier, I got distracted, but I'm not going to let that in my life. There's no good that's going to come from out of that. I'm going to regulate my senses. I'm not going to be a slave to my senses. I'm going to start to notice my mind.

1:49:49I'm going to start to notice my mind's silly choices and good choices. I'm going to cut those silly ones out. And once we start to regulate the senses, get the big pollutants out of our life, then we start that inner engineering of the consciousness. And I'm, nope, I'm going to let go of resentment. I'm not going to be a resentful person. I'm not going to see myself as a victim any longer. I'm not going to see myself as this is happening to me. This is happening for my growth. That there is a benevolent force in this universe that's bringing me higher and higher. And then I'm going to apply this stuff on a regular basis when I want to resort to my old way of thinking, which is like, why me?

1:50:26So unfair. How dare they? Who they think they are. Don't they know who I am? I'm going to cut that languaging right out of my mental vocabulary. My thoughts. My thoughts are like a garden. And like what I'm planting in there is gonna grow into something. And if I'm planting resentment on a regular basis, it's gonna grow roots and it's gonna be harder and harder to uproot. If I've been resenting somebody for 20 years, that's a much harder tree to get rid of than a sapling. So these are things that we might necessarily be taught as a child. However they came to us, we realized these are like important, but they're going to just make us not only joyful in this life, but not only joyful in some spiritual life, but just have a happy existence in this world at the very least.

1:51:16That's like the most punk rock thing ever, right? That's what it means to be punk. Rich Roll, I'm being punk. Yeah, through and through, always, all the way to the beginning. I love it, man. That was beautiful and powerful. Thank you. I hope I didn't talk my talk. No, that's what you're here to do, brother. I tend to just step on people and talk all over them. Please forgive me. You didn't step on anything except the truth. You let the truth flow through you. So the book is From Punk to Monk. It's out everywhere. And final thing before I let you go, I want to let everyone know that Raghu was kind enough to donate a dozen books that he's going to sign.

1:51:58I guess I might scribble my name on these or whatever. whatever that we're going to give away to all of you guys. We'll put details about that in the description below if you're watching this on video or in the blog post on the episode page at richroll.com. So thank you for that. And everybody has that to look forward to as well. Thanks, Rich. And what else is on the horizon for you? I think I heard you talk about maybe you're launching a new podcast. I'm working on a thing that's called the Vedic path. And it's about it's sort of like the teachings of India, but it can be, it covers everything from metaphysics to reincarnation, to spiritual, to Jyotish astrology.

1:52:38For anybody who has an interest in this, a vault of wisdom that comes from ancient India. So, but also very practical, not just otherworldly things, but practical things to deal with depression, how to garden, how to things like that. So I'm looking forward to that. That's in the works right now. So, yeah, I mean, Vedic teachings have everything from the very practical, how to heal yourself from indigestion to there's life on other planets. Let me explain how. That's what I love about it. All right. Well, come back in and share a little bit more with me. More about life on other planets and less about the indigestion.

1:53:17Thank you so much. Keep up the good work. Yeah, you're a gift. You are a change agent. And I think your presence in this world is a beautiful thing. You're changing lives all the time and making the world a better place. I feel the same way about you, Rich. Thank you so much for all you do. Thanks, man. Peace. Plants.

1:53:42That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

1:54:26Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

1:55:04Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

1:55:44Thank you.