Gregg Renfrew Is Making Counter Moves in Clean Beauty

25:56if we make it a little bit more profitable, and we borrow a little money, we can sell for this, and we'll make this. And I remember saying this to Jay Sammons, who was the lead from Carlisle, who I absolutely loved and still love. He's an amazing person. And I remember saying to him, Jay, there's this spreadsheet, and there's the real world. You need to start living in the real world. And he still laughs about it today, because a couple weeks ago, there was a cargo incident in the Long Beach port and someone dropped a bunch of cargo into the water and that water is my holiday packaging. So I was like, you literally can't make this stuff up.

26:31And that did not exist on today's spreadsheet, their last year's spreadsheet. And I think that's one of the biggest rubs. And it's why you see so many companies either falter or become irrelevant is because there's a disconnect between the people that are investing who haven't operated and the operators. And it's not that the operators don't make a ton of mistakes. and don't have their own set of issues because we do. And as founders, we have plenty of issues and we make a lot of mistakes, but we do know how to operate the business. And things that seem very obvious at face value are often, there was complexity and context there that is often lost on others.

27:07Right. Underappreciating the human factor and the unpredictable problems that, you know, inevitably arise with this arrogance of like, oh, that's, that's, so nice and cute. You've built it, you know, and you built like a really cute thing. Like now we'll take it, well, the adults will take it from here. Like, you know, thank you very much. And here's your check and go on your merry way. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I do remember the CEO on a call in front of a whole bunch of people saying something like, I'm really proud of Greg because she's one of those founders that knows when to bring in the real business people or something like that.

27:43And I was like, dude, like seriously, I started a business and sold it for a billion I think I would consider myself a real business person today. And by the way, I've worked really, really hard to earn the title of CEO, not a founder CEO like a real CEO. I worked my ass off to become a better CEO through executive coaching, through a lot of constructive criticism and really learning more about the financial areas of the business, which do not come naturally to me. And so, you know, to make those types of patronizing, you know, I mean, yeah, there are founders that are idiots. Of course, there are lots of people that are idiots, but in general, they're probably relatively intelligent and probably know what they're doing more than you think.

28:24So, there's a series of machinations and things go on. They bring you back to be, you know, CEO for a while and all kinds of, you know, stuff is happening. But eventually, Carlisle, you know, essentially ends up, like, closing the whole thing down, right? And it goes into foreclosure. It's just that's going to be the end of the story. And this is where, you know, you have this second act pivot with the whole thing. So explain. You know, it was actually, it was kind of an incredible thing. So basically$700 million of equity, you know, evaporated. Yeah. And is this Carlisle's like worst investment ever?

29:07Like they're just, they have, they recouped nothing out of this. They recouped nothing out of it. It was hard. You know, I think that in fairness to Carlyle, they really did in earnest try to find a home for the brand. And whether that was through some sort of financial sponsorship or selling it to a strategic. But I think that the business was a little too broken and a little too late. And I think that he stayed on a little too long. And so when I came back in as CEO in February of 24, they made the decision about six weeks later that they needed to shut the business down, that they couldn't fund it because it was no longer profitable.

29:38And I think, honestly, they could see what I couldn't yet see. I was still too emotionally wrapped up in it. And I think they realized like this isn't going to work. So we went into foreclosure because we were immediately in breach of our debt covenants. And I didn't even know what debt covenants really were. But, you know, for someone listening that doesn't know much about this because I didn't, it's like if you're not paying your mortgage, like the bank immediately assumes the property. And that's what happened. And so it went into foreclosure. The banks owned the asset. We went back and forth for a couple of weeks trying to salvage things.

30:08We didn't have an actual viable deal at the table. and a pretty amazing thing happened. And there was a man in Boston who worked for Bank of America. They controlled the syndicated debt on the business. And he and I developed a relationship a little bit over the previous few weeks. And he called my lawyer and he said, listen, we're gonna lose our shirts. We're gonna lose our money no matter what. But she's a pretty exceptional founder and what she did for the industry and the world is pretty amazing. And we want her to have her business back if she wants it. So if she wants to buy it from us, will sell it to her for a very small amount of money, which was actually kind of an extraordinary act by a bank.

30:47Yeah, that's not a normal thing. No. And I really owe a debt of gratitude to Bank of America and J.P. Morgan and others that actually let go of their debt and let me have the opportunity. So they called me. I was on spring break. My daughter, Georgie, who you know, was, you know, and all my kids. I mean, it makes me emotional talking about it now, but they were really, really sad. They're like, you just can't let this die. She was holding our vitamin C serum, which has always been our top selling product. And she said, mom, I just, you've worked so hard. We've sacrificed so much, like just don't let it die.

31:16And my son, a couple of weeks prior, had been trying to post about it on Instagram and self-perfumed his friends' moms. Like they tried so hard to hold onto what we had. And so in that moment, when I had that opportunity, you know, I, it was like, it was like a Sunday night. I was in Miami on spring break, I'm about to fly back to LA in the morning and we kind of had a family conversation. And, you know, I turned to Mark who, you know, is really pretty fiscally responsible and conservative. And I just said, you know, what do you want me, what should I do? And we made the crazy ass decision to buy the company out of foreclosure within 48 hours.

31:51And a bunch of my, we sold a bunch of our savings and we coughed up a bunch of cash to a couple of my old investors, wired in money with no paperwork and just said, all Greg, we're going to back you again. And we did it and we bought it. That was Sunday night and Thursday morning we were going to liquidate. So, we had about two days to get it done. It's sort of surreal. Like that all happened in two days. Yeah. I mean, it was crazy. So, the choice, just for people who don't know, you made a pile of money. You didn't have to do this. You could have sailed off and just either started a new company or not done anything, essentially for the rest of your life, just enjoy your life.

32:33Instead, you decide that you're going to go back in and try to, you know, untie this incredibly intricate knot and figure this whole thing out, which is just inviting, you know, all kinds of, you know, difficulty into your life unnecessarily. Yes. Yes. And it's been, it's been, it was hard because first I, you know, know, I bought it, then, you know, there were like all these legal situations going on. And I had to make like the probably the hardest thing I've ever been through in my career was that once I bought the business, I had to I had to fire all of the people that worked for the company, minus a few, because there was no cash left.

33:19And while we had raised a little bit of capital, we had to, you know, we had to pay something for the business. And then we had to figure out how to operate something. And that for which I received so much negative backlash, like here's this person who says they empower women and care about people and she's firing everyone without any severance. And I think one of the things that's been hardest and I've become immune to the, let's call it constructive feedback on me, is that like I can sleep at night knowing the truth. And what people often don't understand is like the complexity of what's happening behind the scenes in a business.

33:53And so some of the choices that seem either ruthless or tone deaf or really harsh, they're not necessarily decisions. They just are what they are. And when you don't have any cash, you don't have any cash. So I invited that, and I took a lot of public, you know, a lot of scathing from people publicly, both the women that had represented the brand as well as some of the corporate employees. that was really painful. I was getting really, really nasty messages like, you know, you're the most horrible person. I hope your kids must be horrified by who you are. And I just had to somehow like breathe through it and just say like, I know my truth and I know that I didn't do this to people, but I understand why they're angry.

34:37And I did understand why they were angry. But once I bought the business, I really literally had a full-blown anxiety attack. I was petrified and I was petrified probably because I realized I had to shut it down. I had to shut the whole thing down in order for it to live, to see another day, because it was an untenable situation. We didn't have the capital to fund the business on a go-forward basis. I think I was naive in the moments that I purchased it, thinking that maybe I could. But the minute I looked at the dollars, I was like, there's literally, we would have had to go raise like$100 million.

35:06We just didn't have the money. I mean, we didn't have close to the money. So when you entered into this, you were thinking, I'm going to breathe life back into this. I'm going to resuscitate it. We're going to get it one step at a time back on its feet. And then you realize the complexity of the situation and, you know, the endless, you know, series of nearly impossible problems to solve. Was there ever a moment where you thought, like, this was a terrible decision? I should have never gone back into this. A hundred percent. I mean, multiple times I felt that way. I thought that. So, I remember, I mean, I remember that so distinctly.

35:45So I bought the business and I was sitting in my house office. And I remember Lindsay Dahl, who had been head of mission with Beauty Counter and is still an ally and a close friend. She now runs Social Impact Ritual. But she came over and she's like, we're going to do this. And I just had a full-blown sobbing, like hysterical meltdown. Like what? I was so scared because I just realized like the enormity of what I had taken on and the financial implications of the decision. And I thought, oh, my gosh, like, this is going to, you know, is this going to bankrupt my family? What have I done to my marriage?

36:20Like, am I crazy? And she just sort of, like, talked me off the ledge that day. And she was just like, we got to take this one step at a time, Greg. You got to think through this. And I think that it was that conversation that led me over the next couple days to realizing that the best path forward was to let the business go, which was not an easy decision for all the obvious reasons. I had a bad breakup in college. college, I was super in love with my boyfriend and it was like just heart-wrenching. And I remember my friends were like, we've listened to you go on and on about this guy. Like, you got to go talk to a therapist.

36:50Like you can't, we can't help you anymore. And I went to talk to this therapist and I was, you know, crying, whatever. I mean, this is like, you know, 1989 or something. And I was like, but I love him and whatever. And he said, I remember him saying, if you want any chance of that, that relationship starting again, you need to let it completely die. He's like, don't talk to him. Don't look with him. Definitely don't have sex with him. Like, let it die. And if you let it die, there's a chance that it can be reborn. And I know it seems so silly, but in my mind, I was thinking about that. If I let this go and deal with all the consequences of that decision, we might just have a chance of letting it be born again and be born in a better way.

37:28And so that's what I did. I shut it down on May 1st of 2024. I remember when you, I don't know if it was like an Instagram post or something like that, where you were just like, it's shutting down, we'll let you know when it's coming back. Like, we're not, you know, we're not, basically we're not making any promises, you know, which is just like such a, you know, what a difficult decision to make and then to kind of own it and then publicly share it, like this is where we're at, you know, is a heavy deal. And I remember thinking, how do you get through the day? Like, how do you, whether it's what was happening with Carlisle or then this new situation that you find yourself in, like, how are you managing the stress and the pressure of shouldering, like, that much responsibility?

38:14Well, first of all, I'm an absolutely no bullshit transparent person. And I, and even, even now, like, even talking about it, even on a podcast, even publicly, like, I'm okay with, like, being emotional and admitting, like, it was super hard and super emotional and scary, all those things. Like, I think that, but when you, when you, when you put that out to the world, the world kind of finds you and people surround themselves and help you. And I had so many people that just said like, we're going to get through this, whether it was Lindsay or Justin Stoltzfus, who'd been my partner for years, or, you know, Christy Coleman, or like all these people that have been with me, you know, there were people, obviously Mark, my husband, they're like, we've got this, you've got this, Greg, like you can do this.

38:54And I think that what I did give myself self-permission to do because I did keep like a small crew of people. And I remember them being kind of like, as they should be, like I'm the CEO, what's the plan? And I finally had to say, like, I don't know. I don't have a plan right now. So I'm going to take the next three months this summer. I'm going to keep a small group of you. I'm going to pay you. I can't promise you much beyond that, but I can pay you. I can pay you for the next couple of months. If you want to stick with me, I'd love it. If you don't, I totally understand. I'll help you find another job, but I need to take a moment to breathe and to figure out what the hell I'm going to do.

39:27Because I didn't go into this with the intention of buying it and shutting it down, and I literally had no idea what I was doing. And so last summer, the summer of 2024 or a year ago, I just spent a lot of time reading and thinking and having conversations with people and trying to figure out, okay, where is the white space? How do we lead again? How do we go back in on offense? And I was like, what would Steve Jobs do in this moment? What would, you know, some of these great leaders that have, you know, come before me, what would they have done if they had been afforded this opportunity? And can I look at this as a gift and can I give myself the space to really think?

40:04And I just tried to take it like one day at a time. And like you, Rich, I also became very disciplined in my body, like my health. I was very focused on what I was eating, what I was drinking, my exercise, like trying to like meditate whenever I could, taking long baths, going for long walks, like listening to music, like just giving myself space.

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44:21Amidst all of this, Where is your sense of self or your relationship or your attachment to your identity as, you know, a CEO and a successful business person? Because this is being challenged publicly along the way, right? And I suspect that, you know, the ego is not very happy with that. So I think when I was asked to leave Beauty Counter under this previous CEO's leadership, I think that was the time that I went to a really dark place where I remember walking into rooms. There's a group of about 50 women that I go away with every year, a really accomplished group of women of all different backgrounds and professions.

45:01And I remember going to Utah in the spring of 2022, or maybe the spring of 23, and I felt like I no longer belong. belonging. I remember someone giving me a hug and she kind of looked over my shoulder at the time and it like killed my entire weekend because I was like, I'm not meant to be here anymore. You're here, but you know, nobody's saying anything, but you know, you're on the outside. Yeah. I'm on the outside in my head, in their head, they were rallying around me. Like you're, like you're still the woman that started clean beauty and led this business and sold it for a billion dollars and economically empowered hundreds of thousands of women.

45:40They are looking at me, But in my own mind, I'm like, who am I without Beauty Counter? Who am I not as a CEO or this well-respected entrepreneur? And I had a lot of, I'd spent a lot of time like doing energy work, healing work, talking to psychics and mediums, going to therapy, like reading books. And I remember reading, is it David Brooks? Is David Brooks the second actor or whatever? And I really respected him. But I was like, well, shit, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. Like, why are you telling me that's kind of you put out to pasture and I can help others, but I can't do something now.

46:12I'm past my prime. And so, I don't know. I did a lot of that, a lot of soul searching, you know, a lot. Was there any one book or insight that was helpful? Well, in some ways, his book was helpful to me because I kind of rebelled against it. And I think that, yeah, it did. It sort of like lit a fire under my ass. But I also just found that I'm not good at sitting around. I remember my kids coming home and they're like, are you First of all, you don't even wear sweatpants. You're in sweatpants on the sofa watching Netflix at 4 o 'clock. What? What are you doing? And so what I started to think about is, okay, what do I care about in life?

46:47And what I care about is women and helping them, powering them up, not in any way to the detriment of men. And I really do care about health and life and love and being with people and helping them live better lives. And so I started trying to focus on, okay, well, how do I take the things I care about and the experience I have? And how do I start thinking about what I might be able to do that has impact in the world? And that, even though I didn't have a perfect plan, it got my brain thinking again. And I started to ideate again in those dark moments. But I had some dark moments. And honestly, it probably wasn't until the summer of 23 when Mark said to me, like, you have to stop.

47:26Like, you have to let go of your anger, Greg. Like, this is not—it is neither becoming. like it's just it doesn't make you look good but also like you're you're sending us all over the edge like you got to let this all go like you got to make a decision now you can be angry for the rest of your life or are you gonna let it go and move on and I at that point I did decide to let it go um and now I'm actually like I have no anger it's crazy when you and you know this and we all know this but when you actually decide to let something go and actually let it go you can forgive everything and everyone and take responsibility for your own actions and feel fine.

48:00It just took a long time. And what was the moment of clarity when you realized that the solution to this problem lied in, you know, kind of launching something new rather than just trying to resuscitate the brand that you had built? I mean, again, I definitely read a lot about what Steve Jobs did. You know, I had read his books. You know, I'd gone back and like reread shoe dog and looked at what would Yvonne Shannard be doing right now? What would Bob Iger be doing right now? What other leaders that had led before? Talked to a lot of powerful women in my life that had done things. And I don't think there was like one exact moment or whatever, but I think that I realized that the world had changed dramatically since I concepted Beauty Counter in late 2010, 2011.

48:50And I was here to serve the needs of today's consumer. um so that led me sort of in in a direction of thinking like it has to be like coming out as like like limping out as beauty counter 2.0 wasn't going to be good enough like how do you know what would a leader do a leader would reimagine things for today and take the best of what was and build on that but also be unapologetic about the fact that things need to feel different and look different. And I wanted to give the brand, I wanted the company to be a new company reimagined based on some of the core tenants of the past. And so I just, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what that would be, what was going to be the same and what was going to be different.

49:32And knowing honestly that through all of this, I'm different. So therefore the business will be different and has to be different. I think that was really important for me to recognize in myself and then know that through all these conversations and readings that in order to be successful, you have to go on offense and you go on offense not limping out of the gate, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get it. Part of that is drop the beauty, just counter. Yeah, that was important to me. I mean, you know, I never really truly loved the name Beauty Counter. You know, one of the reasons that I named, well, Beauty Counter was the intended double entendre of going counter to the industry.

50:17It was also just a name we could get. I mean, you know, you like can get sometimes like everything's owned by someone, but it was really about re-imagining what beauty meant and the experience of beauty. But it was also an incredibly limiting name because it was, first of all, you put the name beauty in front of men and more times than not, you've lost them. You're never going to sell anything to men. Nope. And second of all, the counter was the essence of what we were doing and who we are. When you say beauty counter, you just think of a countertop. You're not getting that double entendre that you're trying to counter something generally.

50:49And that, for me, it's always been about going against the grain. It's kind of who I am. People really love me or they don't. There are a lot of people who love me. There are a lot of people who don't because I am extremely direct. I'm in your face. And so for me, the first time I started the company, it was going counter to the industry norms of putting toxic chemicals into products and kind of hiding under a bunch of beauty secrets, which still happens, and lying to the consumer about whether or not this was natural or aloe-based or whatever bullshit was out there. And I wanted to go up against the industry and prove that there was a better way forward.

51:24And I wanted to change the laws so that we were protecting the health and safety of people. This time around, I was like, okay, we did a good job and a lot of people joined us and followed our lead and copied us and whatever. And now the word clean out there means absolutely nothing to the consumer once again, because we've watered it down. So to me to go counter to it meant that not only did I have to reimagine the business model, but also we needed to go counter to what all the large box retailers have done, which is creating all a bunch of different standards of clean. And I feel like now I have an opportunity to set a new standard to say, this is actually what clean means.

51:58And And it's not just taking five ingredients out and calling it a day. Like, that's not actually a clean product. Greenwashing has become clean washing. 100%. In the consumer product space, basically, is what you're saying. 100%. And at the end of the day, clean is still worth fighting for. And you asked me earlier, like, you know, why? Why would you do it? Because I want people to live healthy lives. And I know for a fact that there are certain chemicals that wreak havoc on our endocrine systems or create neurotoxicity or reproductive toxicity. I think, I don't know the exact statistic, but it's like 40 % of male sperm is now defective.

52:34I mean, this is a no bullshit problem. And yet the industry, and it's less now about the big conglomerates and the brands, it's more about the retailers. They're creating their own standards in a very self-serving way because they're capitalists. And I get that. Oh, I didn't know that. So the retailers are putting their own veneer of like, quote unquote, clean on top of whatever these products are. And it's completely inconsistent. So what you see at, let's just say a department store versus Target versus Walmart versus Sephora versus Ulta versus you name the brand Credo, whatever it is, all of these retailers are defining clean in a completely different way.

53:11And so as a consumer, what does that mean for me? And again, because of lack of regulation on the federal side, you can still clean clean and doesn't have to be clean. You know, it's a problem. Last time you were here, way back when, I mean, most of what we talked about was this. You know, what do we need to understand in terms of the toxicity of beauty products, consumer products, even more broadly? What is the current state of the regulatory and legislative landscape with respect to protecting consumers from these things? And we talked a lot about, I mean, how many times have you gone to the Hill and testified?

53:52This is like your thing, right? This is the engine behind or was the engine behind Beauty Counter and still remains to be your kind of like defining mission in regard to all of this. And now with Counter, that obviously remains consistent. But I'm curious around what that legislative regulatory landscape looks like now compared to then. Well, I mean, the difference between 2019 and 2025 is significant. I think that so when we were able to help pass MOCRA, which is the modernization of the Cosmetics Regulation Act, which went through a couple of years ago, and that was the first time a major federal law had been updated since 1938.

54:39And I'm proud that we helped in the passing of that. And it allowed for things like the FDA could recall a product when it was known to cause harm to health. Fast forward to where we are today. today, you still have bipartisan support for cosmetic reform. And when I say cosmetic, and I've said this to you before, it could be sunscreen, bubble bath, shade cream, or lipstick. It's all of the above. What is challenging today right now, as you can imagine, is that everything's, you know, we're always at the standstill because people can't get along on any issue. This is an issue that I was really proud of the fact that when I ran Beauty Counter, We had people on the far right and the far left and everything in between, and they could agree that this was an important issue and that we needed to take action.

55:24Today, when I look at opportunities for advocacy within the political arena, so to speak, you're looking at things like the fragrance loophole, which is still protected under international IP law. That's a big problem because so many of the most offensive chemicals are found in fragrance because it's those phthalates that so closely mimic your endocrine system, but they're the ones that bind that scent to your skin. And we know that fragrance is having a huge moment right now. So there are opportunities in small ways to go after specific things that I think would help protect the health and safety people.

55:57There are members of Congress that are still trying to put forth bills on, you know, toxic-free cosmetics, and we will continue to support that. But at this particular moment in time, when I think about our advocacy efforts at Counter, I don't want to just focus on Washington and or the state level. I also want to look at business and commerce and the business world and go after it from that standpoint, too, in that how do we create a standard for clean that everyone can understand and live by so that brands know what they're performing against and consumers know? And that will come down to creating a coalition, and not just with us, but getting a group of important companies together to say, let's set a standard that we can all agree protects the health and safety of people, that when they're out there shopping the market, they can navigate it.

56:45I think there's an interesting opportunity to advocate on the business side of things, not just on the legislative side of things. Yeah, I mean, it seems like, well, first of all. It is an interesting moment right now. Certainly toxicity in our food and in our water. There's never been more awareness and care from the average consumer consumer consumer. about these things. Like there is a level of consciousness around this that didn't exist, you know, five years ago. And I would have to say that in no small part, like the whole Maha movement has contributed to that because this is kind of what it's all about, right?

57:27Unfortunately, it's paired with and coupled with an administration that is really just about deregulation. So these things are working at cross purposes with each other. You can't say we're gonna get toxins out of our food food and all these things while you're basically doing everything you can to make sure that large corporations can operate unencumbered. They're not compatible. So the solution then to your point is, well, we need consumer pressure and we need coalitional support within the industry to set these standards for ourselves. But this is also happening at a moment where there has never been this much institutional distrust.

58:08And I think there is consumer fatigue when it comes to these certifications and labels. Like, what do these things even mean anymore? It's like, oh, this is free range or whatever. It's like, these things don't mean anything anymore. They all get sort of corrupted. And I think the average consumer experience is like, do I even really, what does this mean? Can I really trust this? Or they just give up. I mean, I even in my own life on certain things, I was like, things that I was so like hyper about before, I'm kind of like, ugh. Like, you know, it can be frustrating. It's like, I was talking about this about recycling.

58:42And then you look at like what percentage of things that you've recycled. Yeah, it's like, is this really doing anything? Like, is this worth my energy? Yeah, I think that, I do think that one of the opportunities I saw in the old company that I see encounter today is that if you can demonstrate that you can build a financially viable and successful corporate entity that is also doing good work in the world, you can actually garner the respect and get the attention of some of these other companies. Well, it puts market pressure on all these other companies. And I think that some of these other companies, you know, there are, I think, one of the problems, the challenges that we face as a nation in general, and certainly with respect to this issue about whether it's on the food side of things or personal care side of things, whatever it might be, is there still a significant level of ignorance.

59:31And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but people still don't really understand what's going on out there. And so how do you arm people with enough information that they can make an informed choice without fear-mongering, without scaring them to death? And how do you show financial and business success in a way that you catch the attention of those that are still using the old school practices and seeing, well, they're actually winning. Consumers voting with their dollars and they're actually growing at a faster clip than we are, maybe we should actually make some adjustments. And rather than shaming the companies that aren't doing the right thing, just show them a better path forward.

1:00:07And I have found in my own experience over the last 15 years that most people and most companies, because companies are built on people, want to do the right thing. But with the pressures of the markets, it's hard to do the right thing because when you lose points of margin in your stock price tanks, it's hard. And so it's a conundrum. I mean, it really is a challenging situation. But I do think that public advocacy, we are consumers. Consumers have a voice, and they need to use that voice. And they have to remember that when they vote in elections, yeah, that's one way of voting. But you vote with your wallet every single time you've purchased something in your life.

1:00:43On the subject of consumer lack of awareness or ignorance about these things, what is it that you want the consumer to know? Well, I think with respect to my industry, the beauty and personal care industry, I want people to know that beauty secrets are bullshit. I mean, it's all bullshit. I mean, just think about this. I mean, you and I are both, you know, getting older, right? I have wrinkles on my face, right? I just do. Wrinkles aren't a problem. They're just a thing that the beauty industry is telling you is a problem so they can sell you product. I mean, let's just start there. I mean, really.

1:01:19Yeah. A wrinkle is just part of the aging process, and every single person in the world will get a wrinkle at some point. And it is not a process. It is just part of life. The entire industry of building things like, oh, if you use this, you're going to have the fountain of youth, it's all bullshit. So I think that, one, I want people to understand that there's no cream that's going to get rid of your wrinkles. It might improve the moisture in your skin. You might feel a little bit more radiant. That stuff is true. But nothing's going to change things. That's one thing. Two, don't believe what you see on a label.

1:01:55Like, you've got to do your research. You may not choose to want to do the work, and that's fair. But if someone says it's all natural or clean or aloe-based or, you know, it's got made with pomegranate seed or whatever, like, sure. There's always—it's just insane how creative these things get. Like, oh, infused with this and, like, special—it's like there's all kinds of crazy descriptors, you know, to make you think that there's some scientific breakthrough happening. Of course not. Of course. And they'll say things like, preservative-free, okay? Well, there's no way that if you buy a product and it's sitting on the shelf for a year or two without having to be refrigerated and it doesn't expire in a couple weeks, that's not preservative-free.

1:02:35That means that that person went in and pre-preserved the raw materials, extracted them, and because of sort of loopholes, they can claim that to be preservative-free. Because they weren't actively preserved. It was preserved before they put it in the bottle or whatever. Correct. It's that kind of thing that people just don't realize. And it's the same with the food industry. And I always say that the beauty industry drafts off the food industry. So what is happening there, we're going to get next. And so I always just say to people, if there's one thing you can do, shop fragrance-free. Because at least you know you're removing a lot of the chemicals of concern that don't have to be listed no matter which brand it is.

1:03:13We will. We always list the ingredients, but people don't list it. But just know that, you know, what you see on the label isn't necessarily what you get. And that's okay if you're not trying to buy a clean or natural product. But if you are, you need to do your homework. And what are the common chemicals of concern and why are they concerning? You know, I think there are a whole bunch. But a couple that you will see often on labels are some of the parabens, the methyl or ethyl parabens. you'll see things like EDTA, the PEGs, obviously formaldehyde, but it never shows up as formaldehyde on the label, but those things.

1:03:52And they are, you know, I talked earlier about phthalates, and I think that anything that mimics your endocrine system and disrupts it can be really harmful in terms of your reproductive health or, you know, your neurological health. So I think that what I always say to people is like, look, I'm never, I'm not a scientist and I don't have all the answers or understand half of these chemicals, most of these chemicals. But what you should know, first and foremost, is that many, many tens of thousands of chemicals have been introduced into commerce in everything from electronics to food to beauty.

1:04:24And less than 10 % of them have ever been tested for safety and human health. And so you're dealing with the wild, wild west. And so when you're making decisions about things you're putting in your body and on your body, just err on the side of being cautious. Like you'll put a seatbelt on when you get in the car, but you'll just put anything, any lotion or potion all over your body, and your skin's your largest organ. So if you're thinking about, you know, your longevity and your long-term health, know that while it may not react in that moment, you might not see a huge rash breakout, it may have a long-term impact.

1:04:55And we may not know that—and maybe that one ingredient's okay in isolation, but how many products are you putting on your body every day when you brush your teeth and you shave and you put deodorant on and sunscreen and makeup? And how do those chemicals interact with one another with your body. Yeah, there's an interesting irony in that amidst all of this institutional distrust that's occurring right now, we have almost a reflexive unconscious trust when it comes to all of these products, assuming that smart people at the company have tested all of these things and that the FDA is overseeing all of this and it wouldn't be on the shelf and available to buy unless it has been vetted and tested and approved for human health and safety.

1:05:41Yeah. It actually surprises me. Even with my own friends, sometimes they'll say something, they're like, this is clean. I'm like, have you been listening to me for the last 10 years? Like, are you kidding me? This is not clean. This is not even remotely clean, but somehow you think it is because it has like a leaf on the packaging or something, and you think it's like this thing. I think that - The burden of proof, like the presumption is upside down, right? It has to be proven harmful. It's assumed safe until proven harmful rather than having to be proven safe prior to being able to be available as a commercial product.

1:06:16That is true. And I think that with Counter, one of the reasons that we made the decision to go back into a business model that incorporated community-based commerce and created a platform upon which women can, you know, represent the brand as brand partners and sell products should they so desire. One of the reasons I did that is because I think we believe friends. We listen to our trusted friends. and I think that if you arm an army of women with information, small bouts of information, they don't need to have their doctorate and, you know, whatever, but just if you know a little bit and you can help people make more informed choices, we tend to trust one another.

1:06:53And all these, like all these influencers are going against clean and science, whatever, you know, there just are some things like, you know, if you're putting formaldehyde in your body and that's what's been used to preserve frogs, like maybe it's just probably not all that good for your body. And so to be a little bit mindful, and I think that we really believe in having women share our story, share this story, share information to help their friends, their communities, their families make better choices. And I believe in that today as much as I did when I started Beauty Counter, is in the power of, you know, we say there's no better way to change the world than lighting a fire under the asses of a bunch of women who care.

1:07:26And women care about protecting their bodies, but more importantly, they care about protecting their children, their families, and their loved ones. Herein lies the rub for you, though, as a leader, because in the reimagination of this beauty brand and the launch of Counter, you're faced with the prospect of having to rebuild trust that has been eroded with these women that you need. You need to be on your side. So how are you approaching that so that you can repair that relationship and restore that trust? Slowly. I'm taking my time with it. I think that you can't, I think a couple of things.

1:08:11One, in moments like this, I'm trying to be, I'm trying to find opportunities where I can share my story honestly, because, you know, one of the things that the women who sold Beauty Counter knew about me, as I would say, you might like what I'm going to say. You might hate what I'm going to say. You might like me. You might hate me. But you know that I'm like a no bullshit person. I'm always going to tell you the truth, even when it's unpopular. And so I've been spending time telling my story carefully, thoughtfully, understanding that it does take time to rebuild someone's trust. Some people came right back because they understood.

1:08:45Others have been slower to it. Some don't trust me, maybe never will because they don't understand what actually went down. And I can accept that. That's just part of life. And I'm not going to sit and tell things that I'm not allowed to talk about or that just are not helpful to anyone. But I think it's also like actions speak louder than the words. And so it's like, I'm here. I showed up again. I showed up again as CEO, having been fired from my job to support the mission, to support the women, to help them continue to build businesses. I shut that business down, not lightly. It was a really, really difficult decision, but I brought it back because I am here in support of people and women predominantly, and I am in support of our mission.

1:09:29I still think it's worth fighting for. So, you know, look, it's a slow build, but I do think slowly by slowly as I talk to people and they realize I'm actually walking the walk again, that they are coming back. You know, we've had, you know, about 15 ,000 women join us again who do believe that there is not only an opportunity to build a business, but most importantly, that we're going to walk the walk again and we're going to continue to further the efforts of the past. And what are the similarities and differences in Counter's business model vis-a-vis how you're working with these women? Is it the same principle or is it?

1:10:05It's different in that we're not building teams anymore. So you are working as an individual within the community, but you're not able to build a team because we found that that's where some of the mistakes were made where you had a few people who were earning a lot of money. The MLM thing, like they're making all this commission money based upon the people that they recruited. Which, by the way, is how the entire corporate world works. And I do think that MLMs get a really bad rap unnecessarily. Part of the problem with the MLM business, and there are some really bad offenders out there right now who shall remain nameless, although I should name them, but they over-promise and under-deliver.

1:10:44They say to you, oh, Rich, if you give me$1 ,000, I'm going to show you how to make$10 ,000. And that's what went wrong with that industry. But the reality of the situation is it's mostly a group of pretty amazing young women, all women, who believe in the product and they're trying to earn an income. And we look down on them for building teams, and yet that's exactly how the corporate structure works, right? The CEO is making more than the person who's in an entry-level position. The CEO is working 24 by 7. The entry-level position in an MLM business is probably – they're probably working one to three hours a week, and it's a fun sort of side project for them.

1:11:19And I think that it's okay to be paid on other people's sales, in my opinion. Like, I don't have any issue with that. What I found challenging, though, at the end when I came back in as CEO is what I saw were that people worked really hard for a while. And then there were a group of people, not all of them, but a group of people that were no longer working the business, but were enjoying the fruits of everyone else's labor. And that's not how the corporate world works. You know this. Like, you're paid, your bonus is paid on what you did this year, not what you did six years ago. And if you're not performing, you get fired.

1:11:51And unfortunately, I wanted a situation. we were paying so much money out to people that were no longer actively doing the business. And I wanted to democratize, to put more money into the hands of the person that was doing a little bit of selling rather than a lot of money into a few people's hands. What else is different? I mean, technology has changed quite a bit. So one of the main things, though, that is different, and we're rolling this out because when we launched, it was sort of a soft launch, and I've been calling this a season of learning. When did you officially launch? We turned it on on June 25th, and we kind of made an announcement on October 20th that we're here.

1:12:25And I've said to everyone, this is a season of learning, so let's learn. And we're going to iterate and iterate and iterate because we don't have it perfectly right yet. But one of the opportunities we see that I think is a huge unlock for us that will be really powerful for these women that do represent the brand is there are a million affiliate models out there. Everyone can represent any brand and get paid on it. What people valued in Beauty Counter and what they value in what we're doing today is the power of community, of being an individual that's doing something extraordinary through the collective voice.

1:12:56And I think that, so we want to build that community again because it meant a lot to people. It was most people that were part of the old company, they weren't really in it for the money. They were in it for the mission, the advocacy. They were lonely. Sometimes they were stay-at-home moms that were looking for something for themselves. So I want to build that community out in a really robust way. I also think there's an opportunity to personalize the way that they're remunerated, that not everyone joins a business for the same reason and not everyone stays in the business. And the whole world of sales, quote unquote, is always about what you sell and a percentage of that sales goes to you in the form of dollars.

1:13:30And that's one way of compensating someone. But there are a lot of other reasons why people get into businesses. And certainly with our business, maybe they just wanted to advocate in Washington. Maybe they wanted to go on a trip because they never get away from their children. Maybe they want to live a healthier life and we can help them with that. There are lots of reasons. And we did extensive research to see why did you join Beauty Counter and what might be interesting about Counter. And it's not about the money most of the time. It's mostly about being part of something that you think is important, that adds value in your life and the life of others.

1:14:02So how do we personalize that journey for you based on what you want, not just about money? I mean, I understand what is core to you in this is how is this serving to empower women? And obviously, by dint of this structure, it allows you to do that. Whereas most people don't go this route. They're just like, well, we can be a D2C company, but we're going to do our best to get into Ulta and Sephora and all these places and just be everywhere and be a ubiquitous product. product. This is a very specific choice to do things differently. I just think that brands and community are one and the same.

1:14:43I don't think you can build a brand today without a community. And I think when you're in someone else's store, you don't have control of that customer experience. You're not really learning what they love and what they don't love. When you have a community that's building a business with you, you have a direct line to not only them, but to your consumer. You understand what they want, what they love about what you're doing, what they don't love. I can take products and push them out and say, what are you guys feeling about this? And I can tell you before I've even launched which ones are going to sell and which ones won't be as successful.

1:15:10I can utilize that community and the power of their ability to amplify our efforts in ways that I can't when I'm sitting in a big box retailer. I can have a direct dialogue with my customers in ways that I think, and yes, you can go DTC and you can build a transactional relationships, but at the end of the day, beauty and women, there's a lot of emotion in this. Like, why do you buy a Nike shoe versus an Adidas? Like, What does it mean for you and your personal brand? Does it align with your values? And I think being able to have a direct relationship through community and while powering up women simultaneously, like that, that's what gets me excited.

1:15:44And I haven't figured it all out yet, Rich. When we have our next conversation in five years, I'll tell you what I figured out. But I do know that people want to personalize experience, both as customers and as sellers. People do want to emotionally connect to the brands that they support. And everyone wants to be part of something that's bigger than they are as individuals. And I think we can give them that through counter by going against what's the status quo and giving them opportunities to succeed in their own way.

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1:17:15In business, what are some of the other leadership and business lessons that you've learned by going through all of this? I mean, I've learned so many things. I think that I have learned to become less emotional, which is not easy because I'm a very passionate person. And what I mean by that is I don't think I handle myself particularly well at the end either when after we sold the company and they decided to bring in a new CEO and all those things. Like, I'm not really proud of how I handle myself. And I've watched other founders and friends go through it where they're extremely angry and emotional.

1:17:56I don't think it serves you or the business well. So I think I now lead from a less, a little bit more of an emotionally detached state. I don't know if that's the right wording, and I don't mean that in, but I just, I'm not. Depersonalized. I've depersonalized it a little bit and realized that there is, that these are just the facts. Like, I can put all the color behind what went around. I could just say they bought my business for a billion dollars. They made the decision to hire a different CEO. That CEO didn't want to work with me, and I lost my job. And unfortunately, the business went out of business.

1:18:25Like, those are the facts. I can give you all the color around it, but those are my emotions, and those don't necessarily change the facts. And so I'm trying to lead from a place of being calmer, more rational, and a little distance from decisions. It actually makes me a better CEO when I'm not so caught up in it emotionally. So I think that's really important. I also think that being really open and honest, vulnerable, and transparent, and people talk about this a lot, but I don't think there are a lot of women that actually are comfortable doing that. And I think that I need to acknowledge that I owe a debt of gratitude to everyone that's with me right now.

1:18:59And so owning that and showing them when I'm scared and showing them that I appreciate them. And when I say them, I mean, whether it's a manufacturing partner, whether it's, you know, established who created all our packaging and went on a limb having Sam there and I have worked together for years and like having him reimagine the brand in a year, whether it's all of the associates who asked if they could come back and work for me again. That's like the greatest compliment of my life. And or all the women that decided to represent the brand and the customers that have been through hell with us.

1:19:27I mean, I say to our team all the time, like, don't underestimate what our actual customers have been through with us, too. They fell in love with our brand. They fell in love with their vitamin C serum or their sunscreen or whatever, their body wash. And then it went away. And we let them down. Not intentionally, but we let them down. We need to earn their trust back. And we need to let them know that we're grateful for the fact that they're still here supporting us. So I've learned a lot about gratitude and learned a lot about leading from a place of gratitude and respect. And not, again, it goes back to the arrogance thing.

1:19:57Like, if you're a brand and you're trying to dictate to your customer and you think you know everything, you're just in the wrong business. Because the only business you're ever in is in the business of people. And I have learned a lot about myself, and I hope I'm a better leader of people today than I was before. You have this letter on the new website where you kind of address this, you know. And it's a very, you know, it's a, it's, there's a lot of humility in that, you know. And the humility is coming across as the counterpoint to the arrogance that, you know, was very much at the core of what derailed the whole previous enterprise.

1:20:31What was it like when you had to pick up the phone and call some of these old vendors or people that were owed, you know, like vendors that were owed money or your manufacturing partners? And, you know, there's so many moving pieces in this thing to like get it reassembled and functional must have been. I mean, there were literally thousands, thousands of people that had been, you know, were owed from the old company. Well, it was a kind of a, it was a pretty consistent conversation. I'd say, okay, well, we're kind of in a shitty situation, not of my doing nor of yours. And I'm going to ask you to take a chance on me a second time.

1:21:12And what I can commit to you is I'm going to do everything in my power to make this a success for you. neither of us is going to get what we want out of this right now. I'm going to have to give you more money than I'm wanting to or capable of, and you're going to have to let go of money that you're owed. And there's nothing I can do about that. But if you want to play ball with me right now, let's play ball. And what I can promise you is I'm going to work with less people and I'm going to make sure that I'm important to them and that they're important to us and that we treat them with the respect that they deserve.

1:21:39And so we really sort of honed in on the list and brought in, we like got, I don't want to say got rid of, we decided not to move forward with a certain group of people. And those that we're working with, we're working with closely. And I want them to be publicly acknowledged for it. When I, I want people to understand, and again, this is the whole industry is built on secrets. Like, you never know, no one will ever talk about where they make their products or whatever. It's okay to say thank you to Elevation Labs that, you know, makes a lot of our products that they took that chance and wrote that off or some of the other partners, you know, I mean, it's, it's been, you know, PacLab.

1:22:12I mean, And so I think those conversations were hard. The conversations with the people side of us, especially the women that represented us, that understood that I just made money and sailed off into the sunset, because that's kind of the story that was told. Those conversations were harder because they're personal. When someone is no longer able to afford private school or back-to-school shopping comfortably, or they lost what they felt was their identity, those things hurt. Those are hard conversations. They're still hard conversations. But I try to be really honest. I had a woman who wrote me a letter.

1:22:42I'd invited her to an event that I was doing in Nashville. And she said, how dare you write this letter when my best friend represented your brand for years and died of cancer. And your business, you just let this business go out of business. And now you're back here and you want me to come to your event. And I wrote her a letter back. And I just said, like, first of all, I'm so incredibly sorry for your loss. And I actually am sorry that you lost your friend. And I am so appreciative of her efforts. And let me just tell you what really happened. And if you don't want to come, I so understand that.

1:23:11I respect that decision. I just want you to know I'm really, really sorry." And a couple months later, she wrote me a letter back and she said, I'm so sorry. I was so horrible to you. I'm just so sad about the loss of my friend. And I think sometimes when you just have those honest conversations, people say, like, you're human, I'm a human, like, this is a really bad situation. You know, I think some people can find forgiveness and support. As of right now, what are the big challenges that you're facing? Like what's top of mind in terms of the hurdles that you have to overcome to get this thing rolling?

1:23:45I think first and foremost, there are a million beauty brands out there. When we started Beauty Counter and started the clean beauty movement, there were no other brands. And there are a lot of brands that are claiming to be clean. And everyone just thinks, oh, well, they're just as good as you are. Because I'm not going to sit there and tell you my clean is cleaner than your clean. And you don't build a brand on defense, even though I know we're going to links that 98 % of the brands are not going to. So that's hard because there's just a lot out there against whom we're competing, even though I think we're in a completely different place.

1:24:18And again, that goes back to retailers putting you side by side with a brand that puts clean on their label but isn't clean. So there's that challenge. So how do we create a leadership opportunity for ourselves and how do we create that value proposition for our customer? So that's been challenging. I think that I'm behind when it comes to AI and understanding the implications of AI for my business and also as a company rooted in sustainability. What are those decisions? And so what do you do there? That's a real conundrum, right? Because we all know that AI is like sucking everything out of the earth, so to speak, but also it's where everyone's going.

1:24:52And so trying to figure that out. And I think the other challenge is trying to win the hearts back of women who represented us before and or customers who felt disenchanted by where things went and don't necessarily understand all the facts. And at some point you give up, but I've been trying to find opportunities to tell my story. And it's just, it's been a slower build than I thought it would be. Of course, I thought I'd just turn it on. It'd be easy. And, you know, I have to remind myself that we are a startup again and that you're constantly being presented with challenges and not to give up, but just to say, okay, it is what it is.

1:25:25They dropped our holiday packaging into the water. Okay, what's plan B? And just not reacting. The trust piece, that's just, you know, that just goes back to your therapy session about the boyfriend. Like, you can't expect to ever earn that trust back. The only way that you will is by making peace with the fact that it may be irreparable, right? Like, rather than trying to, you know, chase it, you just have to earn it over a very long period of time. If I'm being completely honest, it's still hard that there are people that hate me or are angry with me about things that I didn't actually do, and I have to just live with that.

1:26:02That's just partly when you're in the public eye that people aren't going to align with your values or the decisions we're made, even if they don't have the context and don't necessarily understand that. I respect that. It's still something that I've learned to be at peace with it, but it's not easy still. I'm a sensitive person. in terms of winning the hearts back of our customers or people that represented the brand in the past. I absolutely told them when I shut the business down that if they needed to really earn money, that they needed to move on. And I respect that. And some of them have come back and some haven't, but I'm not going to chase after something that is no longer.

1:26:35I am going to move forward and just to do my best. Look, it's not a guarantee. Like when we first launched the business, everyone's like, congrats, you did it. I'm like, no, we didn't do it. We turned it on. Like, doing it is now. Doing it this year and next year and the forthcoming years and getting it right all over again. And you asked a second ago, like, what are some of my challenges? I mean, I don't have all the answers, Rich. It's not, it's not, business is challenging. And I don't, I don't know exactly what I'm doing at all the times, all the times. So we'll see. I mean. How refreshing to hear that.

1:27:06I just don't. I don't. Like, when someone's like, what's the plan? What's your vision? I'm like, I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. Is that okay? Having played the game of business at such a high level where the amounts of money that are being transacted are insane, what do people not understand about what that's like? There's so many founders or aspiring entrepreneurs who just dream of the day when Mr. Monopoly comes around and wants to buy their company. And so I'm interested in, you know, a little dose of reality of what that entails and, you know, to give people a sense of that all may not be as it seems.

1:27:49It's kind of like getting married. You know, you look really pretty in that white dress. I mean, it's not happily ever after. You're the same person and you got a whole life ahead with like all that comes with it. It's not just the person, it's the family. Yeah, exactly. So I think that, well, I think first and foremost, I think that anyone that is, and I was this naive and others, and I've been this naive more than once, so I'm not this naive anymore. But if you think you're going to sell the controlling interest in your company and you want out because you want the cash, need the cash, are exhausted, just want to move on, then you should sell your company.

1:28:23If you think you're going to sell the controlling interest of your company, you might make some money and you're going to run it your way and that you're going to be in charge anymore. You're not. I think that is one of the things because I think that people do fall in love with founders. Founders are intoxicating. They're visionaries. They're passionate. They're exciting. They're sexy in a lot of ways. But if someone's going to pay a huge amount of money for anyone's company, whatever industry it's in, they're going to expect that they're going to do things their way because they're there to protect their investment.

1:28:50And there's a misalignment there oftentimes. times. And so I think that people entering into any financial sponsorship, even if it's in an early stage, you are letting go of a certain amount of control. And so read the fine print, know what you're signing up for, and really be honest with yourself about what you're wanting to get out of it. If cash is what you're trying to get out of it, or to see your name on a billboard that you sold your business for a gazillion dollars, that ticker tape on the stock exchange, And it's like, that's fine, but just know that that's what you're getting. I'm going to get that, and I'm going to still completely control my business.

1:29:26It's not going to happen. Even people that are in control of their publicly traded companies are not in control in a lot of ways. Because you're always answering to someone. And I think that people forget that oftentimes. So I always say when you're raising capital or you're selling or whatever, do your own due diligence. Go talk to people that have worked with these people before. Find out what happened when the shit hit the fan. Go know that there's more money to be deployed than there are great leaders and great ideas. So make sure you're not just going to the first person or the highest bidder.

1:29:56That may not bode so well for you. Maybe you take a little less money. Maybe it's a lower valuation, but you have more autonomy and more control of the board or the decisions. Those things actually matter more in some ways than that. And I think people get very caught up in numbers. But I always say, you could be worth$10 billion on paper. But until that thing has cleared your bank account, you're worth zero. It's also interesting how revenue and growth takes priority over profitability. Well, not today. Yeah, like if you want to grow, it's like in celebrating like these huge raises where, you know, what you're really doing is you're giving away your company.

1:30:32Like, are you sure you want to celebrate that? Because every time you do that, you're relinquishing some degree of control over this thing that you built, right? And I know that with Counter, like, you know, being a little bit more grounded, a little bit more mom and pop and, you know, kind of elementary economics around profitability is perhaps a lesson from what you experienced. Like, you went all the way to the top and you're like, this time, let's just, like, be profitable. It gives us optionality. We can make decisions. We don't have to rush into things because we're not chasing as long as we're profitable.

1:31:08100%. 100%. That's a learning that is invaluable to me today. I think that one of the things that's really challenging for founders and CEOs of venture-backed, you know, institutional-backed businesses is that they, it's like fashion, you know? It's like one length, the one, you know, you're the, like the, we're all about this style and next year we're all about that. And that's what happened in the industry where it was growth at all costs and profitability at all costs and growth at all costs. Well, you can't do it all. So for me, I'd rather build a smaller, profitable business that, to your point, has optionality.

1:31:44Don't get caught up in the big, you know, whatever posting in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal or Women's Wear Daily about, we just raised it at a$1.5 billion valuation. Just remember that that investor is expecting at least a 3X on that investment. So do you feel really confident that you can deliver to a 4.5, a 5.5, a 7.5 billion dollar valuation because if you don't, for sure as hell don't sign up for the$1.5 billion. That's the thing. You have to execute against that valuation. It's something that's lost on people. They want a 3 to 7x for their money. Right. Well, it's all about like, I'm a unicorn company now, right?

1:32:20That's the goal. It's a status symbol. It is a status symbol. And I admit that I fell prey to that too because as a woman, I I was like, wow. I mean, I built a business, sold it for a billion dollars. But I think that, you know, at the end of the day, the other thing that I've learned is just, and you know this, as you've enjoyed success in your career, is that the deal closes and, yes, you get some money in the bank and you feel nothing. You wake up the next day and you're like, why am I the same person? Yeah, it's like marriage. I was like, everyone's like, oh my God, we're going to get married.

1:32:50I'm like, guess what? The guy that you were, was your boyfriend a month ago, that's now your husband, is the same exact guy in the same relationship. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just the fact. So five years from now, if this thing is successful and it's, you know, kind of growing as you anticipate it will, and those kinds of opportunities come knocking, like, what is the clarity? Like, how are you thinking about that differently than you were before? I think that I will, well, first of all, I will be way more focused. You have investors. Right. I do have investors, but I still have control.

1:33:24I think that for me, it is about, well, first of all, if I were to sell again or go public or whatever, I would be very clear on what exactly I'm signing up for well in advance of signing any paperwork. I would really need to understand what that meant and look at all the upside, but more carefully look at all the downsides. So I think that's something that's really important to me. And I think one of the things that I didn't do last time around that I would do this time around will do is succession planning. Like if I'm going to step out or I'm going to sell, like what is, who's, who's going to come in and, and lead?

1:33:59Because I'm probably not the best person to serve as a head of brand in a huge, large corporation. I'm probably not that person, but if I could groom someone to be, um, my successor and then, and then still have an affiliation with a brand or whatever, and the movement or the advocacy efforts are helping women, that's an outcome that would be appealing to me. but I think that I am trying to build this time for longevity. I want to build a business that will last the length of time. I wanted that last time around. Now I've learned that that isn't always the case and so I'm taking all the little steps right now trying to make sure that we build a brand that people can trust will be here in a year, in five years, in 25 years.

1:34:41So that may mean that I never sell it. Maybe it becomes profitable and we pay out dividends or Or maybe we do come public someday. I don't know. But I'm going to be much more cautious. Not the rush to exit. No rush. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Amidst all of this, being a woman entrepreneur, you know, there's a, adds a whole other kind of like layer to everything. So what is it that you've learned that is specifically applicable for the female entrepreneur out there? I think that we are often underestimated in general as women in many business situations, and we allow for that to become a liability or for us to think of ourselves in some ways as a liability when actually you should think of it being a woman as an asset.

1:35:28because we have a high level of emotional intelligence. And oftentimes, if someone's not really listening to you, you can read between the lines and come up and surprise them. And I think that, like, when I sit in the room with a bunch of men and I know that they're underestimating me, I just, I don't get offended by, I mean, some of the things that people will say to me, I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. I mean, just like, I can't tell you how many men came up to me over the years and would say, oh, do you have an office? I'd say, I do. And they're like, my wife's friend, she makes this really great lip balm in her kitchen.

1:36:00Like you're running an Etsy shop or something. And there's nothing wrong with running an Etsy shop. And then I'll say things, well, actually, like I sold my company to a private equity firm. And they'd be like, oh, really? Like, which private equity firm? And I'd say, Carlisle. And they'd go, oh, what was the valuation? A billion dollars. That stops them in their trust. Each tick along the way looking for the reason to be dismissive about it. Yeah. I mean, it's just unbelievable. So is that or someone towards the end? Towards the end, when we built a$400 million business that was valued at a billion dollars, right before we sold the company, one of our board members said, have you guys ever thought of having a dashboard where you have a certain set of KPIs and you're looking at how you're measuring against your key performance indicators or whatever in your business?

1:36:38I was like, you don't know. That's such a good idea. Thank you for asking me. I never thought about looking at certain metrics and whether or not we were doing well. It's staggering, the questions people ask you. But instead of getting angry about it, I would tell women, just use that to your advantage. Like, figure out how to make that, like, almost like, think of yourself as an asset and dig deep and find confidence in those moments that someone else isn't telling you that you've got the chops to do it. The other thing that I did, which I will not do, and I was having this conversation, I had a meeting this morning before I came to meet with you.

1:37:12I remember distinctly having conversations with some of the more seasoned older men that were working in the business with me. Not that I was young at the time, but just people who had very established careers in their respective areas. And I remember them telling me, like, what I was saying couldn't be possible, or no one's ever going to buy makeup in this way, or no one's going to ever do this. And I allowed them to overrule my gut instincts. and the business would have been way more successful if I just listened to myself and had the confidence to say, Rich, I hear what you're saying. I disagree with you.

1:37:41We're still going to move forward on the CEO. If you don't believe in me as a CEO, then there are a lot of other companies and people for whom you can work. I have that confidence today. I didn't have that 10 years ago. And I think a lot of women allow, because we always look for external validation, like in life, you know, you know, it's like you put on dress, you, you think you look pretty, but then you walk at the door and until someone's like, I like your dress, you look pretty. You don't think that. Men walk in the world and they're like, I look like a million dollars. So I think there's something about like having the confidence in yourself, following your gut and not letting people influence you too much.

1:38:13It's not that you don't listen and learn from others, but knowing when your gut is telling you to do something as the founder and CEO, then do it. Yeah. The big money people come in and they very confidently say like, I know this worked for you, but in our experience, and we do this all the time and, you know, we know what we're doing. If you do this, then you'll be bigger. And your gut, your intuition is telling you that's a bad idea, but, you know, it's easy to see why you would defer. Yeah, and oftentimes you're the only woman in the room. Oh, and by the way, it might have been really successful at Nike.

1:38:45I mean, this is a conversation I was having with a board member in my old company. He's like, well, at Nike we did this. I said to the guys, like, yeah, that was like 1985. I mean, that's great that it worked at Nike in 1985. Like, the world is completely different. Whatever Nike did in 1985 is irrelevant right now. Like, what is happening right in this moment? And how do we serve the needs of today's consumer? And their needs are ever-changing, and they're moving so quickly that we can't—yes, you can respect the past and learn from the past, but you don't apply the past today unless there's a real reason to do it.

1:39:16So then what is your metric or your non-negotiables when it comes to your metaphorical board of advisors and your literal board of advisors? Like, how are you making decisions about who you're listening to and who those people are? Well, I basically said it's more of a pull than a push. So when I want your help, I'm going to call you, but I don't expect you to project your ideas on me all the time. You know, I was really clear with the investors that came into this business that I respect them. That's why they're there. I need them. And I'm also not going to play by the old school rules. Like I'm not going to put together a hundred page stacks every month for you for the financial reporting.

1:39:54And I'm not going to do these elaborate board meetings and tell everybody what you want to hear and then change my strategy. Because one of the things that I was criticized of in the old company was people used to say, you're all over the map. And what I was trying to shield them from was what was actually going on behind the scenes from my investors and my board of telling me what to do every day, what they wanted, not what I wanted. So I appeared all over the map, but actually, it was because it was like a ping pong match of what they wanted. So I think today, I'm like, look, I'm going to stick with this.

1:40:21If I have a problem, I'm going to tell you in advance. If I need your help, I'm going to call you, but please don't try to project your ideas on me 24-7 or try to get me to change what I'm doing because it suits your needs. I think I'm much more capable of having those conversations today, and I don't do it with disrespect. Like, they're there because they're also very successful people, but I keep saying if I need you, I'll call. Yeah. You mentioned Steve Jobs and Bob Iger and a few other people. Like, who are the people out there that you look to and you're like, that person knows what they're doing.

1:40:52Like, I'm gonna, you know, kind of follow their principles or model my leadership strategy based upon their success. I think that... Who are your inspirations? So, I think that, I mean, I know so many people say this, but, you know, when you look at what Yvonne Genard has done with Patagonia, one of my very best friends from high school has worked there for 20 years, and I know a lot of those people. I think that, you know, when I first read his book, you know, let your people go surfing and now dirtbag billionaire. It's like learning from those who really stood their ground and were uncompromising in their commitment to their own personal mission or their business mission.

1:41:32I think that he's one that's played a part, even though I don't know him. Bob Iger is someone that I've, you know, I remember when I was going back in, he's like, are you sure you want to go back in? Like, are you crazy? He's like, it's not gonna be easy. And of course, now I'm like, I should listen to you. But, but, but, but also him, he did this doing the same thing. Totally. I mean, you've talked about it. Should he have done that? I don't know. It's hard to know. It's always easy to look back, but I think he was really helpful with me in terms of things like make sure you're surrounded by operators, not just finance people.

1:42:00He's been really helpful to me. I mean, I hate to say it because in some ways she stands for everything I don't, but I got to give it to the Kardashians and Jens Grady and all the guys that are building out skims. And like, they keep doing these things culturally. Like, I'm like, I just, I'm fascinated by that marketing machine and how they've been able to do it again. Meeting the moment, being able to like leverage social media to meet the moment. And just, and just, and being unapologetic about who they are. Like, again, I don't live my life in the way that they live their lives, but they've had such significant influence.

1:42:37And it's been, it's been interesting to watch them just build these businesses and how, you know, they've got to be some of the greatest marketers ever. I used to say like Madonna was like the greatest marketer ever. And you could still say that about her. She just would reinvent herself and everyone would fall in love with her again. I mean, again, that's a little bit a while ago. But people that know how to read the moment and then shift accordingly and then continue to build, I find really, really fascinating. There are a lot of people. I've always respected my friend Sarah Blakely and how she built Spanx.

1:43:08But then just how she's done it with such humility and how she reaches out into community and learns from them. I'm like, there are a lot of really interesting people out there. And I've been so fortunate to spend time with so many founders who inspire me every day in big ways and in little. I'll tell you else who's just been so helpful to me recently, honestly, is my kids. I mean, you want to know what's going on in the world? Talk to a 16-year-old girl. Talk to a kid who cares. Talk to my son about what's important to him. I'm learning from my children every day, whether it's Phoebe and her desire to help the world through international relations and really helping people in that way.

1:43:44Or my son, the way that he looks at the gamification of things and looking at that. Or Georgie, who just knows everything about pop culture. I learn from them a lot. And I think older people who are not looking to younger people for learning are crazy. Yeah. Have you figured out how to better balance all of these things? We're in this post-girlboss era. And having gone through what you went through, are you on the other side of it with a healthier appreciation for the other things in your life that are important that often challenge or conflict with running a business? Yes, and it's still really intense.

1:44:26I am trying to find, if you're asking my husband, my husband would be like, she's not very balanced. I think if you're asking my friends, they'd say I have a more balanced approach to it. I think I'm spending, I'm carving out more time for myself. I'm, I'm, I'm absolutely, um, focused on what I'm eating, my exercise, my sleep. Like I don't compromise on that now. Like I used to years, maybe not so much during the beauty counter years, but I would sort of put my exercise last. Now it's like, nope, that's a non-negotiable for me. Like that is a non-negotiable taking holiday and vacations with my family, non-negotiable.

1:44:58I'm just like, you guys, if you guys can't handle the business for a week or two without me, we've got a real problem here. There's something wrong with the business. And letting other people do that, too. And I'm trying to strike that bounce. With all that said, it is an intense moment. And I think that I don't understand how people think that they can just kind of breeze in and out of businesses and build really successful companies. I haven't quite – if someone can figure out how to do it, I'd love to know. I mean, I see a lot of younger people. They think, oh, it's just like my side gig or I don't want to do a 9 to 5.

1:45:24Like now, you know, on sort of the tech side, they're saying 9, 9, 6. If you're not willing to work from 9 to 9, 6 days a week, like we don't want you. They're going the other direction again. I think it's hard to build businesses, and so finding that balance is hard, but I am saying yes to a birthday party. If a friend invited me away for a weekend for her birthday where I would have not made it, and I've lost so much time with people because of that. And friendships and your family are really, really important, obviously, and I lost time. Back to the clean beauty aspect of this, you have this like never list, right?

1:45:59Which is these are the ingredients that you should know are never going to go on our products. And not for nothing, those are probably the ingredients you should be aware of because they end up in all these other products that you're, you know, if you're not buying our products or something similar, you are going to be buying these things. So what are some of those things? I want to kind of like leave people with some really practical, you know, pieces that when they go to the store the next time, they're armed with a little bit more education. And don't ask me what they all stand for because I'm, PEGs.

1:46:36So you'll see in capital letters, PEG, PEGs, anything, the parabens, I just, I know that in Europe, they feel like they're okay. I don't, I don't agree with that. I would say EDTA, I'll tell you one that I think that people, any of those spray sunscreens, oxybenzone, avobenzone, like you really don't want those. First of all, they're killing the coral reefs. So more importantly, they're not more importantly, as importantly, they're really harmful to us and people continue to use this. I understand that the mineral-based sunscreens go on and they're a little whiter and chalkier and they don't look as cute.

1:47:15But like every time someone sprays that aerosol sunscreen on the beach, I just shudder and die. And then I think the one thing that if you do nothing else in industry is just shop fragrance-free because some of the most offensive chemicals like those phthalates are found in fragrance. And because of international IP law, a company does not have to disclose any of the ingredients in fragrance, right? Because it's a trade secret. So don't be fooled by that. Just go for fragrance-free products, you'll be 50 % of the way there if you just do that. And, you know, like we still publicly publish our Neverlisten.

1:47:52I always say like, I'm not here for everyone to buy counter products. I'm here to help people make informed choices. They can use the environmental working groups, Skin Deep Database. I mean, that's a good one that you can type in any product and see, you know, what it is that's in there. And, you know, there's a lot of talk about talc because of asbestos. There's some clean talc, there's some not so clean talc, you know, But just pay attention and use those if you're shopping the market. And insofar as labels are concerned, for example, with sunscreen, if it says coral safe, that doesn't necessarily.

1:48:24I mean, it's supposed to be. This is sort of self-policing, right? Like it's not reliable. Well, if it sprays on clear and it has avabenzone or oxybenzone and it says it's reef safe, it's not. So I think that, you know, there's a lot of talk about this. And, you know, we were in Hawaii in 2024, and we were talking about this, and they could actually see, they banned all of those sunscreens from Hawaii. Not that people don't sneak them in, but they are banned because they could see like almost like an oil slick on top of the water outside of some of the bays because people were using so much sunscreen and it was going in.

1:49:02I mean, we only have one earth and life to protect. Like, let's do the best to err on the side of being cautious and preventative rather than waiting for the repercussions of our decisions. Are you anticipating getting back to the Hill and doing what you were doing before? Is that on the horizon? Yeah, maybe not this week. Yes, I do believe that we need to fight for—I really want to continue to focus on the modernization or the sort of getting toxic-free cosmetics and personal care products. So when things, you know, we are actively still having conversations, but I think that it's a very challenging time, obviously.

1:49:40I think that, but I do still encourage people to, you know, send members of Congress in emails and texts saying that you care about, you know, your health and that you want them to take preventative measures to protect your health through cosmetics and personal care. We are going to focus on the fragrance loophole. We think that is one. And also supply chain transparency. I said to you earlier in this podcast that in the conversation we had that you can pre-preserve an ingredient and extract the juice from it, so to speak, put it into a product and say it's preservative-free. Like, that's part of the lack of supply chain transparency.

1:50:14A company shipping into the United States doesn't need to say that they actually pre-preserved the rose petals with parabens or whatever the preservative is. We need to tackle up and down. So up and down the supply chain, there are a lot of loopholes that need to be tackled. And fragrance is one of the other things that needs to be tackled. And we will continue our efforts, both on the state and federal level, to try to effect change. It can be paralyzing from a consumer perspective. Like, we can't be expected to, like, know all of these things when we're buying our product. I mean, they're relying on us not knowing these things, obviously.

1:50:47But just the well-intentioned, reasonably well-informed person who's trying to make the right choice. while their baby is in the grocery cart, whatever. It's just like there's only so much we can expect the consumer to know and to do. Of course, and it's also hard and it can be expensive, but things like your baby. Your baby doesn't need to be washed with soap and water when they're a little baby. Just wash them with water. There are things that you can do. You can take your shoes off at the door. You can wash your floors with water and vinegar. There are things that we can do just to remove from our day-to-day life some of the most defensive chemicals.

1:51:23Don't store food in plastic. Just, you know, splurge on the glass. And, you know, maybe you buy less glass, but you keep it in glass. Don't microwave things in plastic. They're just things that consumers are doing because they're convenient, but they aren't necessarily healthy for you at all. Yeah. Has it been worth it? Yeah. Yeah. On every level. You're happy? I am happy. I mean, I'm still a little scared. It's not easy. It's early days. It's early days. But it feels good to be back in the game. It feels good to be working with people on something that I think really matters. And I do think that clean is worth fighting for.

1:52:00I think our health is worth fighting for. I think women are worth fighting for. And I just feel, I do feel honored to have the opportunity to serve again. Whether we'll be a smashing success or not, I don't know. I'm going to certainly give it my all. I think we can be, but I don't think it's a guarantee. But I am happy. And I'm really, really appreciative for the outpouring of love from former clients, from people who sold. I was saying to an editor in New York last week, I remember when the ship went down, she sent me a text. It was a woman named Linda Wells. She had been at Allure magazine, really powerful in the beauty industry.

1:52:37And she said, how can I help? I want to help. And those things meant so much to me along the way. And I continue to hear from people like, we're cheering from you. We want to see you guys do this. And so I do feel the support of many. I then turn to my friends and I'm like, you're cheering for me, but have you shopped? So, like, holidays are fast approaching. I got great solutions and counter products. But, you know, I'm hopeful and I'm excited and I'm really passionate still. But I'm also, I'm more mature and I'm more humble and I don't take anything for granted anymore. I can tell you that. Yeah.

1:53:10Well, I'm cheering for you. Thank you. But I have yet to buy, so I guess I'm going to buy now. But I can because you can do that on the website, right? You can do it on those? website, 100%. So, I was looking at, is it counter.com? What is it? It's counter.com. Counter Beauty Encounter, yep. And if someone goes to the old beauty counter one, it goes right. You did a great job with the websites. Thank you. You know, it definitely evokes the ethos of being very clean, you know. Yeah. You know, we are clean, and we're genuinely walking the walk, and it's hard. And I want people to understand how hard it is.

1:53:39It's complex and comprehensive, and real clean requires a lot of really hard work. It's not just that never list. It's what is the packaging? Is it leaching the toxin back in? Are we ethically and responsibly sourcing ingredients? Is a woman safe in the field while she's harvesting that crop? Like we take it very seriously. And how I tell that story, I don't know. It's hard to tell, but I want people to know that I do really care because people matter and our health matters. So I'll look forward to your purchase. Well, I'm proud of you. So, you know, I think what you're doing takes a lot of courage.

1:54:14Like you didn't have to do this. You could have done a million other things and you're just marching right towards it, you know, and I think that speaks to your character. So thank you for coming and sharing all of that with me today. I appreciate it. I appreciate you. All right, Greg. Until next time. Until next time. Peace.

1:54:35All right, everybody, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I really do hope that you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit today's episode page at richroll.com where you will find the entire podcast archive as well as my books, Finding Ultra, The Voicing Change series, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is free, actually. All you gotta do is subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review or drop a comment.

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