Harvey Lewis: The 47-Year-Old High School Teacher Who Ran 450 Miles and Broke a World Record

29:25Maybe I should have gone to Running Man. Maybe I should have been like moving things on Thursday nights. Maybe I should have taken a day off from work versus driving down after work on Friday. There were a lot of things that kind of went into my mind in the night before the race. One of the three worst sleeping nights ever, I only got like three hours of sleep. And I woke up at like 2 a.m. and I just laid there and I just, my mind was like thinking about everything. I couldn't calm my mind down and I couldn't fall back to sleep. So I went to the starting line knowing that I only got three hours of sleep going into the race that I will need the most amount of sleep of in my whole life.

30:05That is not a good omen per se. And then in the first three days, I didn't sleep at all. Like I actually laid down and I really believe there's a true physiological and mental impact from just laying there with your eyes shut. I could say maybe it's like 60 % or a little more than that of the same benefit of actually sleeping. Because if you're awake, it's different than just laying there with your eyes shut. But I couldn't sleep at all for three days. And so it wasn't until the fourth night, John Noel and I, another American runner from our team, he and I were running together and I was doing like 55 minute laps.

30:46And we just got to this point where I was able to like fall asleep for like two minutes. And it just was like, oh my God, this is the best sleep I've had my whole life. Like just sleeping for two minutes because going for three days with no sleep. Was that by intention that you weren't going to sleep for the first three days? Oh, no. Or that's just the way that it played out? No, it was just the way it played out. Like I practiced sleeping. I talked to Todd at the Running Man Festival and he had some really great ideas about how to like, you know, breathe before you fall asleep. All these things were really like things that I should have done better to practice at home and leading up like for a couple months.

31:25But yeah, in my training at lunchtime, I'd go and lay down for five minutes in my classroom. You're trying to train yourself to fall asleep quickly. Yeah, I would fall asleep. I could literally do it in my classroom. I fall asleep, three minutes, bam, get back up. Even like on runs, I did like running. I go to the park. I like lay down in the middle of the park for like three, five minutes and get up. But when it came to the race, I was just so worked up. And then after like day two, I'm drinking like Tailwind and Coca-Cola and drinks that have caffeine in them. So, I mean, that probably also like added an element of not being able to fall asleep.

32:05It was my dream to want fall asleep and like sleep more than ever before. Because there's another story I'll share about it in Australia with that whole like madness of not getting enough sleep. Go ahead. Go ahead. Share it. Okay, so basically, I was in Australia this summer, and we did this incredible race. Tim Walsh, dead cow golly. Tim's got this ranch in the country of Queensland. Goes back to 1877. So it's kind of ironic that a rancher, you know, he has like a cattle farm, would recruit a vegan from America to come and run in his race. But yeah, he was just a phenomenal guy. His race attracted runners from New Zealand, from South Africa, and the top runners from Australia.

32:54So the race went to a new world record, which was kind of interesting because this was just a race that no one had really heard of outside of Australia too much. And we were able to push it to Phil Gore beat the Belgium record, and Sam Harvey was his assist. So those two guys, and I was the third runner. What happened to me is I made it to 375 miles and I was, again, struggling with the sleep. And also I had gotten really dehydrated in the middle part of the day. So for about 10 hours, I hung on by literally like strings, just getting myself into the corral with like minutes to go. At 375 miles, I finally tapped out and I told our runners we were out in the middle of the woods on the road.

33:42I said, you guys, best of luck to you. As soon as they went off like 50 meters, I started the greatest hallucinations I've ever had in my whole life. Like the most incredible, I never had anything even remotely close to this. I mean, I had seen shadows that my brain interprets as other things, but this is a whole nother level. It was like stranger things. Like the grass became grass people. There were, the trees were alive. The whole forest, like the sounds like were super acute. And then I would like sort of fall asleep for like just a millisecond. And I wake up like this as I'm standing there.

34:19I wasn't scared. I was totally aware of what was happening, but it was just like everything was an absolute hallucination. Right. That was just strange. I'd never experienced that in running. Like your brain's releasing its DMT into your system. It was unreal. Were you running while that was happening? No, I had paused. I was just walking and kind of like talking to the woods. like actually if I go back to that place ever again, I'm not sure I'll ever go back to that again. I think I can actually run through that. Like I think it would just be like a wild experience, but I could just still run through that whole thing.

34:55You're like a psychonaut exploring the outer edges of sleep deprivation. Right.

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38:30Showing up only on three hours of sleep, then not sleeping for the first three days of this whole thing, and then all told, like your cumulative sleep for the entire bigs? Four and a half days, not counting the three hours before, would have been like maybe like 20 or 25 minutes, 20 minutes. 25 minutes total for four and a half days. Yeah. Something like that. And I didn't have even a single hallucination like during that whole period. I don't know what happened. I mean, I didn't, in 2021, I would sort of hear sometimes noises, like someone's running behind me or I would see some sort of light and I'd like interpret as like a dog or whatever.

39:10I didn't even have that. Like in this one, I had like no hallucinations. But on the fourth night, I did start to go into this phase of being sort of running, sort of dreaming. So I would fall asleep and trip a bit. And somehow I didn't ever fall down on the road. This race, which I didn't mention if someone's just tuning into this for the first time, you've got 11 hours on a trail. And then it has 13 hours on the road. The nighttime, you're on the roads at night. Exactly. So on the trail, the trail is more difficult. There's 450 feet of climbing. You have rocks and roots and you have areas that if you fall, you're going to possibly hurt yourself pretty good.

39:50On the road, you have basically maybe 150, 180 foot of like climbing and descent. And you have an out and back of 2.1 miles. So if you fall, you're just going to scratch your elbow, your knee or whatever. in that mode, I was starting to like go into a different mental state at times. Like with John running next to me, I would start to like say things that didn't make sense. Like I was like, I don't have streaming services. And like, tell me like, I remember saying that I'm like, why did I say that? Like I wasn't, and John would be like, what are you talking about, Harvey? It was just like this like flow of thought that just like you get in the dreamlike state where you're, that's very interesting.

40:33It's like you're dreaming, but you're awake. And so your flow of thought is just uncontrolled. I was not in any control of my flow of thought many times in that fourth night. And in fact, at about five hours into the fourth night, I said to John, I was like, how many of these laps have we done? And he's like, I think like two. And I was like, yeah, I think two as well. And then we looked at our watches. Wow, we've done five of these. And we forgot, like, where'd it go? I don't know where it went. So that was something totally new to me. I mean, I've been running ultras for like 27 years now. I didn't even know that was even feasible to do something like that.

41:14And I mean, I saw somewhere in a publication where, you know, you get some like different feedback from different folks. And someone said like, well, Harvey, it really was impressive what he did with some of these things, but like that sleep stuff was just total luck. And I was like, well, you know, the funny thing is, is like really none of this is really genetics or luck. A lot of it really is building up like your endurance. And like when I first started doing this, when I was 20, I ran a 24 hour race. And I can remember like the hardest thing of that 24 hour race was surviving the night. I remember getting a 1am, 2am, 3am.

41:50And it's like, it's something that is like having a car on top of yourself. You're like trying to just stay awake with everything you have. And so it took many years. And these backyards, I can remember going back to Courtney and I in 2020, where I tapped out at like 270 some miles. And that was like a large part of that was building up like the ability to endure like that sleep deprivation as well. Could you have imagined then that there would be a day where you would go 180 miles further than that? No way. No way. I mean, honestly, when I first came to that race, it was so funny because they're handing out the race numbers.

42:32I just remember them saying like, yeah, well maybe like it was just meant as a joke. Like maybe someone will, yeah, I think it's going to go to 300 miles. And like, uh, everyone's like, no, no, I'd never do that. And I remember back to when I was running these 24 hour races and I thought I would really love to run 130 miles. And that seemed like some giant Mount Everest so far away. There's an insurmountable for myself at 20. Like, I mean, that was, I ran 81 miles like in that 24 hour race. And I mean, it took me five years to get to breaking five hours in a marathon. It took me another like 14 years to get to breaking three hours from that point.

43:13So it's been - 17 years to qualify for Boston. 17, you got - I mean, your whole life is an ultra. It's like a life's commitment. It is. It's not just showing up and suddenly you have this capacity or this prowess that you didn't even know that you had. You've been working on this for the better part of your entire life. Yeah, it's been a long journey. It's definitely been an ultra experience. And I love the Count of Monte Cristo and that hammering through that tunnel. and like we all have tunnels in life and we all have something to hammer through. And just that's where I was at when I finished, when I was on my last loop in the bigs this year and I was coming back and I knew at the moment where I actually saw there was no Ehor.

44:01And I was like, I cannot believe that this was a dream that I had for so long. And for this whole year, it was something I really just envisioned so strong, but it was like the probabilities of getting there seemed so infinitesimally small. When you thought about like all the competition, all the runners, all the things that could go wrong, I just had to like say a prayer and like just slow down and like just soak in the energy of like my surroundings and then just be grateful for having that opportunity. What do you extract from that about human capability? And that is the place that we are also capable of such incredible feats.

44:50And no matter what your area of specialization or what your pursuits, we mostly can go so much further than we ever see ourselves going. And it's so important where we see ourselves. How we see ourselves is one of the most important things in the world. So, I mean, for example, I always vision myself as, well, I'd love to be a fast marathoner. Well, I always envision myself as being like, maybe for a long time, it was like a four-hour marathoner. And then somewhere along the line, I thought, well, I started to see myself as maybe a 330 and then maybe 315. And then I, well, maybe I can be a sub three hour.

45:25And I was like, well, wow, maybe I can be, so I got to 245, 58. And now I'm like, you know, I'm not sure if that's like my pinnacle or maybe I can actually go further than that. Even though I'm at my age right now, 47, it seems counterintuitive. and I have my PRs from four years ago, maybe it is actually possible if I concentrate my energies and also adopt the knowledge that's available to make that happen. Is that on the bucket list to try to go back to the marathon and just throw down and see what you can do? I think I'd love to do that. Yeah, I'd love to do that. I think this year, I'm not sure about this year.

46:03I've got a lot of things on the agenda, a lot of races, but I would definitely, I wouldn't want to sacrifice the ultras I'm doing now, but I think it's actually possible which I've done in the past, I've always gone faster in the marathon. At the same time, I'm getting faster in ultras. A lot of times people think, oh, it's not possible because if you're working on a hundred mile race, no way you're going to get faster in a 5K or a marathon. But I think it's actually possible to perhaps have them work side by side. However, for like getting sub 245, I'll probably have to dedicate myself for like maybe three and a half months or three months real specific training.

46:41But yeah, I would love to do something like that. Maybe, maybe like hit 50 or it'd be super interesting. You could, you could literally just discard the weekly long run. Like you got, like I got the endurance part covered. All I'm going to do is go to the track like three times a week and just throw down, you know, four hundreds at race pace or whatever, and just forget about any distance stuff whatsoever and just fine tune some speed and try to get your tempo up to par and then just show up, you know. I think I'm gonna need your side, your cold plunge. I think I'm gonna need - Yeah, some cold plunging might be involved.

47:18I gotta ask, and I'm sure you've been asked this many times, but again, back to the quirk. Like when the other guy doesn't show up for the next lap, you win, but the story that isn't quite told is how much further you could have gone. Could you have kept going? And if so, how much further do you think you could have run? How many more laps, loops, whatever you call them? Laps? Loops? Yeah, you could. Yeah. Yeah, it's laps. Yeah, we call them actually yards. Yards. Yards, technically. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I got into this incredible space in the fourth night. Like, I felt like I found some sort of frequency with running.

48:03And I feel like there's a mathematic equation to it. And it's like with pacing, if you hit a certain pace mark in your marathon, you can go so much faster than if you miss it by like your mile splits by even like 10 seconds, you can throw that off. So I feel like I hit some sort of frequency where I just felt like I could go forever. But there are so many things that can go wrong as well. So by the time I hit that fifth day of running on the road, I definitely felt like it was possible we could have just kept on going that whole night. Because only major impediment possibly at that moment would have been like sleep deprivation.

48:45But I felt like it was possible. So we maybe could have gone back to the trail for a fifth day, I guess it would be. Yeah. So then you have the element of the trail again. And so like, that can be tricky. Like, I mean, I didn't fall at all the first three days that I can remember. But the fourth day, I fell a bunch more. And I started falling like the more towards like one, two, three in the afternoon. Because your depth perception gets thrown off from the sleep deprivation. Yeah. I was wearing my road shoes on the trail. So I also like beat my road shoes up at that moment. because I had worn them through the night where I'd like fall asleep and like on the road, but I was also wearing them on the trail.

49:32So that probably also didn't help things. But yeah, you could entirely knock yourself out by falling on some rocks or something like that, like Mori Mori did like in 2021. And then also in 2021, I fell down on the third day and like just fell poorly on my hand. I'm really good at falling. I fall a lot, but I fell and broke my hand. so this time I was really good about my falling it just uh you have to be so careful because there are any particular points if you're not getting enough nutrition every hour then you're just gonna like you're just not gonna be able to go so I mean you have to like constantly be aware of your like nutrition you have to be aware of like uh you're pacing yourself you can't get like overly carried away like I was maybe showing at the start of the lap I wouldn't want to do that like a sprint through the whole loop, you know.

50:27And one trip on a route. Yeah, then you can just - And you go down and you're out. You could, yeah. So you have to be really conscious of what you're doing. So I feel like it is definitely possible that we could have gotten back to that fifth day. And then I feel like it's possible to go beyond that too. So I really didn't see any finish. I was just gonna go into the last person. So, I mean, I was prepared to just go as far as it's worth. You're not going to lay a number on the table here. 550? What are we talking about, Harvey? As far as - 600? I think that a lot is possible. I think it may be possible to even do something like that.

51:06Wow. For sure. Yeah, I think it's possible. A lot of athletes in these multi-day events suffer from all kinds of digestion problems. The stomach gets upset. They can't hold calories down. and that ends up basically toppling the best of them. But you didn't seem to have any kind of issues with that despite taking in something like 40 ,000 calories or however much food you ate over the course of this four and a half day period. To what do you attribute that? And is that also something that you practice and try to train and prepare for? Most definitely. Like I can remember being out on the course and hearing other runners squabble about digestion issues.

51:51Like maybe, I don't know what percent, I heard at least 10 % complaining about some digestion issues. So it is a big, big, big impact to be able to consume 300 or more calories every hour. And then, I mean, 40 ,000 calories across four and a half days, that's a lot of calories. I mean, that's an incredible amount. I don't really practice it in terms of my monthly routine of training. It's like these races help to inform that. So doing bad water in the summertime where the temperatures are over 120 degrees, I get a real good sense of what I can consume at any temperature possible. I've done And races ranging from like Badwater in 2021, I think it was like close to 128, to like the Arrowhead 135, which, you know, that race can get down below zero quite far.

52:50So it's like more than 100 and some degrees of like temperature range. And with bigs, the plant-based foods make such an incredible impact. Like not having the dairy or the meat, it's easier for my body to digest things quickly. So I'm able to digest more calories quicker. And if it's warm out, that's where it's also definitely going to help you even more because I don't have any issues with the speed of digestion and the inflammation too. That's another thing. I know, you know, at least another runner, they had to actually change their shoes. Their feet swelled up. Because their feet swelled up so much.

53:33They had to borrow another European shoes for size 14 and a half. I think that they started like a 12 size. So, I mean, it's like, I don't know if that was entirely attributed to like the nutrition. But I can say when I do see other runners, like I know that they talk about like swelling, their lower legs. near their shins and ankles. And I didn't have any type of swelling in the race. During the race point, I had no swelling that was visible. So that has an impact on minimizing your risk of injury and also impacting your performance. I try to eat foods that are easy to digest. So I'll eat like lots of fruits, but I also have like soups with noodles.

54:21I'll have like avocado wrap with like hummus. I have like a lentil soup. So I'm also getting protein in there. If I'm only running like a hundred mile race, I'm like have zero care about like really all the dynamic of like the makeup. It's more important, like the number of calories I'm getting like salt and fat. but in these longer races, I'm also being more mindful about getting protein and like a race over a hundred miles, like especially bigs, that I'm trying to eat something more than just a gel or like a tailwind. I'm also trying to get like some real food in me, maybe as much as like every two hours.

55:04But I know a lot of runners would have difficulty doing that if they didn't get practice with that, but I've just been doing it for years and years and years. So, I mean, maybe if I think back to when I was doing that in my early 2000s, I would come back and just be like, oh, my stomach is like roaring. But I've conditioned my stomach to be able to like just eat a burrito from Chipotle and then just go. Yeah, it's like kind of wild how you can condition your body and your mind to adapt. Talk to me a little bit about the recovery. We're not that many years distanced from a period of time in which conventional wisdom was, if you ran a marathon, then you should pretty much take the rest of the year off because it's going to take a long time for your body to bounce back.

55:47Then we enter this world of ultras. And then the idea being like, well, if you're going to run a 50 mile race, a hundred mile race, Like maybe just do that once a year. You, my friend, competed in 10 ultras this year. And not just like, we're not talking 50 kilometer races. We're talking insanely long distances. And you seem to have this preternatural ability to bounce back and be right back on your feet, back teaching, back running into your daily routine without more than a blink of an eye after a race like this. So walk me through what is going on here. I've kind of gotten a full formula, but movement is really important.

56:31So for me, like the day after a race, I think even getting out to walk for like 20 minutes is like dynamite compared to if you were to not do anything at all. So some sort of movement is critical daily to our self-existence. I mean, I know this from like breaking my neck back in 2004. From that experience, I didn't take any painkillers after I left the hospital. And I was feeling a lot of discomfort, especially the first week. But what I found was not moving was far more painful than moving my body and walking. So walking is actually like lotion to your body. It is incredible. So with these races, I do like a one-mile run after the race.

57:20to kind of keep my run streak, although that kind of - Like the same day? Or you mean the following day? The next day, yeah. All right, thank you. Next day. And then I basically am not going very fast. I mean, it's a slow mile. It's like usually over 10 minute mile. And then I'll like just build onto that. So if it's like a shorter race, like maybe a hundred mile race, maybe I feel pretty good and I'll just go run like three or four miles or I'll run to work three miles, run home from work three miles. I have like that run streak to work is like 10 and a half years now. Without missing a day. Without missing a day.

57:5510 and a half years. 10 and a half years. Of running to and from work? To and from work every day. I love it. I honestly say like, well, if someone were to offer me, if I'd have to give it up for a Ferrari, I would like not take the Ferrari. I love the Ferrari. It's very nice car. I have a hard touch seeing you in a Ferrari. That feels like very anachronistic. We saw one last night. and we were having a debate about what kind of car it was. I was like, that's a Ferrari. And Kelly's like, that's not a Ferrari. But the motion is like lotion. It's real critical. Like movement is so important for our bodies, whether you're able to do it at a higher level with yoga or you're just simply making a walk.

58:36Like that's powerful in itself. So, I mean, that's another thing with like, I think ultra running and top athletes in different genres. us. I don't think that walking is too valued, like in terms of like, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a lot of runners talking about hiking and walking all the time. But for me, I feel like walking, I try to incorporate some level walking, especially when I'm training for like a big race, like walking in the woods is really fantastic. And I value that. We're walking with a group of friends in the city. We have like a Thursday where I get together with some of my friends that aren't runners and we just do a walk.

59:13It's really nice. Like that was one of my best training buildups to base was getting together with my friends who are not runners and like doing the walk with them because some of them, my one buddy, Charles, he's a professor economics and he's, he's been, you know, struggling with some of the health issues over the last few years and trying to get his weight down. And so for him, it was really powerful to be able to get the walk-in. And for me, it also was powerful for me because I'd already done all these miles running and getting that walk-in was like getting that last pump and like a bench press.

59:51It was like, give me that extra little extra. It's like that 1 % that makes an impact. In terms of the training, how structured is it? You run to and from your school every day, and then you're competing in these ultras, which are part of the training, I assume. but is there a program? Is it periodized? Do you have a coach? What does that look like? Or is it just something that you figure out and go on feel? It's like the Wizard of Oz and that guy behind the scene pulling up. Yeah. No, because honestly, I don't have - You don't have Chris Howth like sending you a program telling you what to do every day?

1:00:29I've never had a coach in my life. You've never had a coach? Never had a coach. No, no. And I think in some ways, Courtney and I are very similar in some domains pains when it comes to training. I don't have a definitive plan for each day. I kind of leave it flexible. So for example, today I had no plan. I just know I want to get out there and use the time I have. And so this morning I woke up, kind of both woke up about 4.30 and I was like, oh, you know, hey, I'm in this beautiful place. I'm just, honey, I'll be back in a few hours, a couple hours. And I went up the mountain. I didn't know I was going to do like the mountains above Agora Hills this morning, but it was just perfect for like to get into the Barkley S and being nighttime, dark still and like getting some like verts in.

1:01:19It was phenomenal, but I didn't have it on my agenda. It's just like trying to work with what I have. However, like I do know week to week, I know like I want to get this many miles or I want to like build this much climbing in. So I have like a weekly plan And then I have, with races, I'll have like a pyramid plan in my mind, like that I'll kind of trace it backwards. So I say, okay, like two or three weeks out, I want to be at this point. And then I build it backwards and I say, okay, where am I here? Okay, so I might get from here to that point. What do I have to do to get from here to there?

1:01:54And then so I'll just gradually build up the mileage. And I'll also be thinking about like each race, I want to simulate what's happening with the race. So for bigs, it was like a combination of half the time trail, half the time road. So I can't just focus only on one or the other. I have to be strong in both. And also, I don't have to be that fast. Like for bigs, it's just about being out there and surviving the longest. So getting used to running at not the fastest time or doing the walking with my friends. Like I'm not doing that right now in my routine, although I wish I could. but just tweaking things so that it fits whatever race you're going after.

1:02:34And that's one of the things I love about ultra running so much is that it has such diversity. There's so many things you can explore. You could go for a really fast race on a track or 50K or a road race, or you can go out and do a stage race in Mongolia or something. I mean, there's all sorts of things you can do. So I've never had any coach, but I have people that have inspired me, including yourself. No, come on. No, it's true. There is a level of intentionality that you're bringing to it. And to your point about the similarities or the shared sensibility that you have with Courtney, you know, I look at the two of you, and I think I maybe talked about this last time you were on, but I see very similar personality types as well.

1:03:19You're both incredibly affable, grounded, humble people who are grateful to, you know, be doing what they're doing and almost seem bewildered by their own success on some level. And I can't help but think, like, what is that about? Like, what you do and what she does together, I mean, you guys are at the top of the mountain in terms of, you know, human capability and ultra running. But I have to think also that behind the scenes, there's some sort of hidden engine here that I'd like to know a little bit more about. But I think... Your dispositions are so generous and I think it dispels maybe somebody who doesn't know so much about this world dispels their preconception that in order to do the kind of things that both of you do you do that you have to be this really hard to do you know this person.

1:04:28gentle human being what is that about well courtney is much more humble she is she is she is i greatly appreciate like the compare you know comparing me in any way it's courtney because courtney is uh just the best in the world in so many domains and true and you ran 450 miles okay So keep going. Thank you. I think like the basic, one of the things about Courtney and I is that even if we weren't like winning races or even finishing the first front half of the group, I think we would still be out there enjoying the experience. we're both very competitive people but we also I think that the base energy which we operate is that we just love the whole piece we love running we love the people we love the nature so I mean I feel like and there's a lot of people that have those same energy forces that that propel them.

1:05:37But I feel like that for us, it's not just about being the first runner. We're both very competitive and we strive to be the best we can be. But I hope that even someday, you know, hopefully it's many, many years and decades from now, but someday when I'm finishing in the very back, I'll still be out there and enjoying it. You know, having fun with just whatever that endeavor is or venture is. Like, it's just an adventure. So I think that to me, there's more important things in life. It resonates with me. The adventure of it all is something that is priceless to me. Like, there's nothing. So I'm just grateful to have this experience.

1:06:28It's just for the young person that's under my layers that was chunking goonies, that was working for years to get under five hours in the marathon. I never saw myself as a strong runner in middle school or high school. Yeah, I never saw that. I wasn't as disciplined with things, I didn't know that it was even feasible to grow into that sort of mode. I guess I took it as like more genetics or that it was just not feasible. To your point, a lot of people share that sensibility with ultra running, the appreciation of the community, being outdoors, nature, pushing yourself, like all of that stuff is not unique to you nor to Courtney.

1:07:20So I guess, you know, the question remains like, what is the differentiator? Is it the accumulation of all of these experiences and the level of discipline and intentionality that you've kind of brought to this experience incrementally over a long period of time? What is the difference between you running 450 miles and the person who craps out at 300, 250, whatever? Like, what is the secret weapon under the hood if I pop the hood, you know, into Harvey's soul? I'm very driven, like, with the running. This is the hidden thing. It's like behind the smile and the affability is, this is what I'm getting at.

1:08:05There has to be some kind of killer instant deep down under there that you try to hide from everyone. Where's the darkness? I'm not as pacific as Courtney. There's no darkness there I tried to find it I couldn't unearth it But I am bad I use my imagination in sort of Some wild ways at times I have the honey badger Spirit animal You got a couple spirit animals Yeah, I have a couple This race, it was a honey badger The honey badger just never stops It's a choose your adventure spirit animal You swap them out It depends on the environment but it only happens for like my big A races. So next one would be Barkley.

1:08:48But it's the honey badger, the Mongolian horse, because the Mongolian horse just keeps on going. And I would be like, in the midst of the race, I'd be like going like that because it relaxes your face. It helps relax your shoulders. It actually has a technique that the horses use. Oh, that's why they do that? Yeah, that's why I think so. Okay, all right. I'm making that up, maybe. An anecdotal theory. Yeah, it's my theory. But the runners would be near me and be like, Harvey, what are you doing with that? I'm like, that's smart. I'm just relaxing myself. It's like I'm a Mongolian horse. Yeah. And Courtney has a dragon thing, but I'll have to let her tell you that because it might be a secret.

1:09:30Yeah. I've never heard that. Yeah. Dragon fire. Did you just divulge something that was pretty? She could tell you. There's a technique, but - You also have an unlikely spirit animal, a third one. Do you know what I'm talking about? The dragon? No, no, no, no. Well, there's a monarch butterfly. Yes, thank you. Yeah, so the first day in Biggs, I actually kind of took on the monarch butterfly because Anthony from Quebec is a friend of mine, and he ran from Quebec to Mexico to draw awareness. He and his wife are attorneys. They took time off from their practice, and they wanted to draw awareness about the plight of the monarchs.

1:10:11Because that's their migratory pattern. They fly from Canada to Mexico, right? All the way. Yeah, I mean, it's incredible on a single life cycle to go all the way from Quebec to Mexico. They're trying to get people to plant milkweed. There's like a loss of perhaps 90 % of the monarchs. And there's also a group that come up here to California too, that there's a real loss of these. But anyways, I saw a monarch on the first day when I was running. And that was absolutely, that gave me a little spike of like energy, you know, just like, just to make that connection with my friend Anthony and like monarch butterflies don't seem like the proper spirit animal for this sort of engagement.

1:10:50Yeah, it's a very counterintuitive spirit animal. Yeah, because they gotta go like this way for 15 minutes. But what's interesting about it is that it's this tiny fragile thing and yet it can go all the way from Canada to Mexico. So it's defying your expectations, which kind of plays into this personality type of you being this kind of affable guy who is living your life, who has this capacity that he can unleash at any moment and defy everybody's expectations. That's the magic of it. And there are some other things too. So the week before the race, I think I went to Whole Foods on Thursday night with Kelly.

1:11:31She came down for a night from Circleville. And anyways, I ran into this old lady back by the cereal aisle. She kind of reminded me of my mother. she had this real fancy hat on and she was lonely. I felt like, you know, and I wanted to just strike up a conversation. And I said like, oh, I love your hats and this and that. And then we got to the checkout aisle and this lady happened to be behind me and I was wearing my two times you gear and it has a big X here. And she looked over at me and it's like, you know, a week before Halloween and she's like, are you an X man? And I was like, well, kind of.

1:12:01So I'm a two X man. Yeah, two X. Yeah. So then in midst of race, I have to be honest, like on the second day, I did have like this sort of a moment where I just like was envisioning myself as Wolverine. And I'm like, all these other runners, because there's 75 runners, it can be really intimidating that all these people are like very strong and look fast and all the other things. And I'm like, you guys are all gone. It's bad of me to say, but yes, I had that moment. Why is it bad for you to say that? You feel guilty, like owning your space and planting your flag. Yeah, so I'm just like, yeah, everyone, you guys are all— You're toast.

1:12:40You're in for something coming. Yeah, it was bad. The storm is coming. Yeah, the storm is coming. In the form of Wolverine? In Wolverine, I'm like, yeah, in the form of running. Like, I'm just going to run you two down. There's an interesting psychological thing about the alter ego. Like, when you step out of the frame of who you think you are and you step into the exoskeleton of a superhero, there is an energy boost with that. Like it is a common thing, whether conscious or otherwise, that tons of high performers do. I mean, there's a difference between David Goggins and Goggins, or Mark Cavendish and Cav, or James Lawrence and the Iron Cowboy.

1:13:25There's a million examples. And I think there's something very intentional about having that moniker or that archetype that creates like another gear for a performance that the Harvey might not be capable of, but the Wolverine or the Monarch Butterfly or the Honey Badger or the Mongolian horse. You gotta use every single tool in the toolbox. Right. Yeah, so it is a wild thing because when I'm in my classroom, I mean, I'm trying and I give my full effort, but there are days where I'm like, I wanna step into my character. that comes after four days. It was like I built into this different being of myself at times, where it was like I'm very calm and subdued and relaxed.

1:14:11But there are times where I was out there on the fourth day, and I don't know who else was running near me. I wasn't cussing at them, but I had a soundtrack that sounded like David Goggins a bit. So I get into different modes. It wasn't complaining. It was just psyching myself up. Yeah, just getting myself psyched up. It is an interesting thing. I think using your power of your imagination and creativity. And when I didn't put myself in that Wolverine character every day, it was that second day. And I sort of smiled and laughed about it. And it just actually was entertaining to me. It was just kind of fun.

1:14:49And it also kind of propelled me. later that night, I probably felt maybe I was really tired. Like on the second night, that was one of my tougher points. And I like said to my buddy, Randy, because you're only allowed to have one crew member there, but my buddy Judd was doing a DJ event in Indiana. So we were allowed to have my crew trade on the third day. He's like, I love you, Harvey, but I'm out of here. I got to go spin some records. Yeah. He's like, well, my one friend, Randy had to go to Dana's appointment, my other friend Judd, he had to come from like doing that. But Judd is an amazing crew person.

1:15:26I always say like with these events, the crew is like quintessential in so many ways. With Randy, he also like was able to say something powerful. So like the second night, it might have been like, maybe it was even the third, start of the third day. It was a simple point he said. He's like, one of your team members, Kevin, he was on the USA team the year before and he was also running the race. It's like the film crew asked him who they thought would be the last person to survive. And Kevin's like, you know, without a doubt, Harvey. And so my other buddy told me this. It caused some sort of physiological change even in me.

1:16:03Like I felt like that fatigue and tension I was feeling, like that was going through my back and I was just feeling really tired and a little bit stiff. It was like that just went away. And I felt this like new energy. And I was like, want to like live up to that expectation there. And like, also it felt really good that Kevin said that, like it was really such an incredible compliment for him to say something like that about me. Cause I was, my mind was always teetering on like losing that faith. And I was always trying to keep that, that dream of being the last person going the furthest cemented together.

1:16:45But there were many times where I had to really fight to keep it from crossing over the other boundary. Keep that positive mindset that it's still doable. When I'm going for three days without sleep and I'm feeling more tired than the previous year and it's like, but then by the time I got to the fourth night, it seemed like I got to that frequency where I was so hell-bent on being the final person. I like lost a sense of like fatigue to a degree. Like those things became less visible to me. Like my brain was so hyper laser focused on being the final outcome that all the other things just didn't matter anymore.

1:17:27I was like - You transcended fatigue. I transcended fatigue. You were in a different state of consciousness. It was a different state. Like I went through a metamorphosis where it just left me. I was like, I was fighting it. Like it was like when I was in with Jesse and the cold plunge after doing the hot sauna. And I got in that cold plunge. I'm not the best at the cold plunge yet. Like I'm in there for 20 seconds and I'm like, just like this. And Jesse's like, just relax into it. Just relax into it. Relax your breathing. And I mean, I only made it like 30 some seconds or whatever. But the whole experience, you're kind of transcended over to bigs with like, you get to a point where you relax into it.

1:18:13And then it's like, you're anticipating like the punch coming. But once the punches have come, you're just like, well, I fuck it. I don't care about any of these punches anymore. You can hit me another hundred times. I'm not going to stop. So it just pulls you. And Ed, that's where it really attracts me to this because I can't get to that sort of place and running a marathon or running a 100-mile race. This takes you to a whole other place I've ever seen before. Yeah, that's so wild. Yeah, it's something that can't even be described in words. Like it's so experiential. It's like trying to explain to somebody what your ayahuasca trip was like, right?

1:18:54Like you are a psychonaut in that regard. Like it is as much, if not more, a venture into the beyond of, you know, the brain's capacity and the relationship between consciousness and physical activity, like in a new and different way that isn't just about the typical conversation around like, walk me through your mantras when you reach that point where you can't keep going. Like this is the PhD version of that where you're almost on a different plane and a different relationship with your own body and level of self-awareness because the fatigue is so profound. It's like a point of opportunity to like, I feel like there's some sort of, there's an enlightenment that does come from like this period and like exploring those spaces of the human mind.

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1:21:29So what are you returning to report back to us mere mortals about what you learned from that, you know? Yeah. What is this doing for you, Harvey? It's part of our DNA. Like I feel like, you know, as humans, we are driven to the unknown. there is a point of death so i mean things are not you cannot infinitely go forever but in a human evolution and in our our time on this planet humans have experienced those points before i mean you look at like feats of survival uh the six days the man trapped under the rock i've lost his name right at the moment but oh the one they made the movie about he had to basically break his arm off.

1:22:11Yeah. I mean, it's just an incredible story or someone lost at sea for weeks. I mean, it's like, those are far more remarkable, but it's like pushing to that same, that we have more in us than we realize. And like the very interesting thing was like after the race, I sat down, we had like a little celebration and I did some chat on like with a live feed. and then I walked over to the like tent with my buddy Judd and another friend next to me. And I mean, I walked, but I was relying on them a bit too. Like, I mean, I was definitely like, and my body was like, yeah, we're done, we're done. This is it.

1:22:56But the thing that's wild is that my mind, I really believe I could have just run through that whole night. And I think that it's possible that maybe we could have kept going through into the next day. And then how far beyond that, I'm not sure. But in terms of my body, my body was just cooperating. Like at that point, my body surrendered to my mind. My body just gave up and it said, I'm tired of resisting this brain. And it says, we're gonna go. We're just gonna go as far as we have to. And there's no debate about it. We're just doing it. But the minute the race is over and you're like, I'm done.

1:23:34And everything probably shuts down. Then it goes back to the body gets majority control. Right. And then it's like, no, we're going to lay down. Then we're going to take our time. We're going to go to the restroom over there. We're going to take one minute to walk to the restroom. On the subject of higher planes of consciousness and the kind of transcendent aspect of this, it feels like a natural race for you to pursue would be the 3 ,100. Is that on the list? Did we talk about that last time? Maybe we did. I can't remember. No, never have, actually. Have you ever had a guest on from that race?

1:24:07No, well, I had Sanjay Rawal on, who made the documentary about it. Okay, nice. And I know people who have competed in it. It's not a backyard format, but it's not dissimilar. It's like a stage race. You have certain hours where you can run, and you just run around the city block. Right. That's only a mile loop, right? And how do you say the name again? It's Shri Shinmoy. Shri Shinmoy. Yeah, because I think that he is a fascinating character. I mean, he pulled airplanes by himself. Oh, I didn't know about this. Yeah, like he's the one that developed that race. He's since passed away. Yeah, but he's like the patron saint of running, especially in New York City.

1:24:47He's had a major impact on running culture dating back to, you know, the early 70s, I think. That's really interesting. As a sort of spiritual leader. And who was the guy, the New York Roadrunners? Well, there was Ted and then who's the guy who ran the New York City Marathon in like the 70s and 80s? I can't remember his name. But I believe, I could be wrong, but I believe he was heavily influenced by Sri Shinmoy. And there's such a strong running culture in New York City. And I think you can't understand the origin of that culture without understanding Sri Shinmoy. He was like this spiritual guru who had this philosophy that running was a path to transcendence.

1:25:29I love that. The ascetic nature of running. And that's the origin of this race, the 3100, where you run around the city blocking Queens, totally nondescript, like not urban but not suburban kind of city layout until somebody gets to 3100 miles. Right. And hopefully self-transcends in the process of that. All right. So this has to be on your bucket list. Yeah, it would be. It's in the summertime, so it's almost possible to do with my teaching schedule. But I did learn from the Appalachian Trail that when you do a really long adventure like that, even with my methodical way of eating plant-based foods, movement, hot and cold treatment, it's difficult to bounce your body back in like six months.

1:26:22It takes maybe six months or eight months. So it would take some time, but I love the exploring. That does sound like it could be, it's a lot of time. It's a lot of time commitment. For sure. I mean, it's basically like your whole summer. It's my whole summer. Or your fall. I think I was in New York City, I think it was October and it was going on while I was there. So it goes into the fall. That would cut in. Yeah. I mean, you're - It's tough. You know, very committed to not missing a day of teaching. Well, I do miss days. And I think that everyone in my school is very, like the rest of the staff are probably like, oh, Harvey, how do you get to take all these times off?

1:27:04But I take an unpaid leave. And fortunately, like I do get the time off, but I usually take maybe two weeks to do races in the year. That race is like also involves, I would feel like I like having crew members also for these big events. And that would be a major commitment to be away from Kelly. And or to have, I don't think she's gonna wanna come longer in like a few days or a week maybe to that type of race. But you know, she could shack up at a nice hotel in Manhattan and pop in every couple of days, just make sure you're still alive. Yeah, there's actually right now, I have on my Instagram under stories the opportunity to vote for one of my races for 2024.

1:27:49And like going back to 2017, when I did bigs for the first time, the reason I decided to do bigs is I put four different races out there. I had like a six-day race, a stage race in Oman, maybe it was like Leadville and also bigs. And bigs won like with 80 % of vote. So that's why I did that race the first time. I would have never discovered it had people not voted for it. Here's what's going to happen. You're going to do this again and I'm going to campaign. I'm going to lobby for the 3 ,100 and then you're in big trouble. I'm in big trouble. But let me ask you this. So you have a full-time job teaching.

1:28:25We talked about that at Link last time. And ultra running is also a full-time job. I don't think it would be fair to call it a part-time gig. Like you're very serious about this, obviously. or at the pinnacle of your career and performing at the highest elite level, but your life is full. And I'm interested in how these two worlds nourish each other, because I would have to assume that if a brand came to you, I don't know, shoe brand or an apparel brand and said, Harvey, you're the best. We love you. We think that you are the hero that we need and the ambassador that we want on our roster. and we're going to write you this enormous check and we want you to just run.

1:29:09Would you take that deal if that meant that you had to retire from teaching? Well, I have this amazing shoe company already behind me with Newton's. Honestly, I am so, so loyal to them. I've already been offered something that maybe exceeds that by quite a long distance, but I've been with Newton for over a decade. And like, I truly love those shoes. Let's say it's a non-competing brand. I know you love Newton. It's great. And I want you to - You know what's$100 ,000 on that? Let's definitely love on Newton for sure. Yeah. And let's say it's a food brand or Whole Foods comes to you and says, we're Amazon.

1:29:45Yeah. Just name your number, Harvey. Right, right. Would I do that? We know you like that Ferrari. You can have that too. Well, honestly, I would probably be open to doing that for like a leave of absence. So like for a year or maybe for a few years. But then again, like after I, I really love the teaching aspect. So if I, if I went that direction, I did that, then I would want to also be doing something like relatable to youth as well. So then I would have to like start a program like Ray up in Quebec. He's a hop. He has a hop. He takes kids several times a year to like these remote places on the planet.

1:30:33And then they broadcast what's happening for like lesson plans with like Canadian National Geographic. And it's like, then he's into the classroom. So he's impacting more than just a single classroom. He's impacting classrooms all over. So if I had a dream, like I would absolutely, absolutely love to be able to impact more kids and be in more classrooms. That's where I would be, oh, I'd see the opportunity with that. But with my school, SCPA, it's a really amazing place. It's a very diverse art school, like what your children have. And it's hard to replace that. But if I were to have an opportunity where I could do something in that respect of like - You could scale the impact.

1:31:19Scale it to a larger group. That you're having on young people. That I would 100 % be in. Or if I could do like a sort of running travel TV show or something. What's the status of that? Because I know you're trying to make this happen. We got to talk to Kelly on that. She's kind of helping. I want to bring Kelly on, but I have one more thing I want to talk to you about before we do that, which is the why behind all of this. I'm sure this is another question people ask you. Why do you do this? What are you getting out of this? Why do you have to run so far? And I just know in the course of kind of sharing your story and the stories of other people who are on the outer edges of this world that amidst the celebratory kind of response that you get, there's also some pushback from people who are like, why are you sharing this?

1:32:07This is unhealthy. This isn't good for anybody. Like these people must have some kind of psychological problem. Like why? You know, like there are better people to celebrate. There's something not right about this. and maybe you shouldn't be promoting it, right? Right, right, right. I'm sure you get a little bit of that coming your way. Oh yeah, definitely. So what's the why? And what is really driving this behind all of it? Yeah, I mean, is it Maslow that has the hierarchy of human needs? Yes. Sort of paralleling that. I feel like there's a hierarchy there. So I mean, at the base level, it's like there's like a physical element to it, like a chemistry, like a dopamine impact.

1:32:48You know, like from like running, what running brings you positive health and brings like positive, like, you know, feelings both while I'm doing it as well as like in the afternoon when I'm like reflecting back on that experience. But then there's like the social aspect. Like, I mean, I've met people that have overcome numerous life challenges because of running. And it's like part of that is also that social dynamic, like what they get from like being a part of something. So there's that social dynamic that's large. And then you get the sort of like elation that comes from like beating yourself, like to push yourself to another level.

1:33:37and to continuously be, even when you're in your 60s, your 70s, or like my friend, Mike Fremont, who's 102 in February. Right, friend of the pod. Still kicking. Still kicking. Out there, getting it done. He does pull-ups every night on his way to bed. Unreal. And he wears your shoes. Not my shoes, on. He likes his on. Yeah, he wears on. And he collects the little pebbles. He's got a little like a jar that's about this big, like the pebbles he's collected from the sheep. That gets stuck in the soul, yeah. He likes to bring it back to the sheep store and like give them back. But it is like a love.

1:34:18There's like a spiritual element to it as well. Like once I recognize like the highest points, I feel like a closeness with the energy of the universe. I don't know what to say. I can't really describe it, But I feel that like power sometimes when I'm like in an event like bad water out in the middle of the desert and I can see, you know, for as far as human eye can see and I just like take my body and just it feels so primal to be moving across that landscape and doing things that my younger self was thought was like absolutely insane. So that's something. But then there's also at the very high level, there's also like this giving back.

1:35:04So like this year, we actually teamed up with the Brighton Center and like we didn't finalize everything. That was another thing I was working on the last eight days before the race. That came together at the last minute. The last eight days before the race. I was like, we have been talking about it, but we didn't finalize the details. and we were going to aim to raise$100 ,000, which was 10 times more I've ever raised for any group. I got to speak to the people working on the ground. This organization helps like over 20 ,000 people in Northern Kentucky, greater Cincinnati. It's like family planning, right?

1:35:39It's everything. They have shelters, they have like food banks, they have like help people get their first houses to overcome like addiction. there's all different like facets to this organization but are non-profits and so it was at that point it was also another drive like knowing like when I had my friend Tracy Outlaw who does all my social media like in these races and is a really good storyteller but he he was relaying to me that we were up over$15 ,000 and we're over 20 ,000 and that gave me more motivation as well. So, I mean, we ended up raising now over$44 ,000. So, I mean, it's like knowing that that was connecting with other people and knowing that we were impacting other people, it impacted me.

1:36:32And like that was also like motivation in it. And also like, I really love to influence our culture around health. In Ohio, we're not really at the same level of California. We have even higher obesity rates. I feel like there's fewer options for healthier foods, especially in rural areas like Circleville, where Kelly and I live. I live half my time in Circleville. And so I kind of like, honestly, like when I'm running to work and back home from work and I'm racing the buses, I kind of consider myself like a human billboard. So it's like trying to get people to move beyond like, you know, what they can do to, you know, take the people that are more sedentary and get them out and like walking.

1:37:22I mean, I try to do that with my students. That is something that I try to do. I try to encourage people to eat more whole food, plant-based foods. You know, even if they're not going to like, you know, become vegetarian or vegan. Like, I mean, if they're incorporating more of that into their nutrition, you know, my mom had a stroke when she was like 54 and she almost died. And as a result of it, it impacted her speech and her mobility for the rest of her life. And fortunately she is still alive at 84, but for 30 years, it's been a different experience. Like she, you know, she does not have the same abilities and it's very frustrating for her.

1:38:03So, I mean, much of what happened to her at 54 could have possibly been different had she been eating differently and had she been, had a routine and had less stress in her life. You know, those things, absolutely, I don't believe she would have had the stroke. So, I feel like, you know, DNA does play a role and it does impact us, but we can also fight back. And like, we can also, you know, I have an end date as well, but it's like the quality of life. Like, I mean, my buddy, 102, Mike Fremont, he's still doing pull-ups at 102. I mean, that's remarkable how many people can do a pull-up, I mean, across the whole population.

1:38:47That guy's unbelievable. 102. I mean, he came to my classroom, He walked up all four flights of stairs. I mean, and like, there are a lot of people that come into the school that don't do that. They are 20 and 30 years of age. So, I mean, to me, like, I'm only one person. You're one person. We have a whole bunch of people out here and ultra running and like different, like activities like this. But I feel like if I can influence a few people or more people, that would be the best thing in my world. Like, you know, just to have more influence and getting people that higher quality of life. So it's not an inconvenience.

1:39:25It's far from that. All right. Answer complete? Yeah, I'm sorry. That's the end of your answer? I'm sorry. No, I want to hear you out. Right. And you can get Kelly up here to hear the honest truth of it. Trust me. Trust me. All right? That's coming. She's coming in hot in a minute. But before we get to her, I'm not going to let you off the hook on this. if I heard you correctly, your answer to the question of why you do what you do and push yourself in this very specific way is because of the community social aspect of it, your love of nature, this feeling that you get from pushing yourself and kind of suffering and the kind of downstream impact that that has on your life, the spiritual piece to it.

1:40:16Then we have the fundraising piece. And then there's this role that you can play in terms of influencing the health of others, all very laudable wise. And yet I'm feeling like we're not quite there in terms of getting to the bottom of this. I think that all of these goals could be pursued short of running 450 miles and not sleeping for days on end. You could go to the turkey trot and maybe run the New York City Marathon every other year and still raise money, enjoy the social peace, get out in nature, have a spiritual experience and the like. If I was going to create my own Maslow's hierarchy of these wise, I think I would put in terms of like your pure honesty in answering this question, I would put the spiritual piece and the suffering piece at the top here because those are the two that I think might be inching a little bit closer to the answer of why you go as long and as hard as you do because all of these other goals can be achieved short of you practicing five-minute naps in between classes and, you know, spending every commute for the last 10 and a half years running to and from school.

1:41:33Like, it's very extreme, right admittedly i get it bro i love you but to the person who is the person who's posting like i don't understand this like this is like let's go a little bit deeper here let's get into the darkness like what's the real push like what is what is the engine that gets you through that third day and into the fourth day and into four and a half days without sleep and is continuing to propel you beyond your enjoyment of nature. And it's cool to hang out with some other people when you're running around in the woods.

1:42:16Well, I mean, I just - And I'm not saying you have to know the answer to that. Yeah. You're so good with diving in and peeling back the layers. You did that last time. Actually, I had a couple, at least one epiphany in the last time we met that was something I didn't even quite get until I left that space. But I want to just go as far as humanly possible. And I have this aching desire to want to always go further and to push myself into like some zone that It doesn't make sense, but I don't know. You may have to get Kelly up. She may give a better answer. And let's do that. But I will offer this and I think, and please correct me if this is at all off base.

1:43:10I think there's something inside of you that owns and knows that you're very good at this. Like it's not the normal person who, you know, a couple of days into this decides like, who looks around at the other competitors and says, yeah, these people, they're not going to beat me. like and just knows it. And maybe that's Wolverine, but that's also Harvey. And so I think you know that you have this in you and you know it's special. And there's something really beautiful about honoring that. And that's okay, you know? And it is exciting to see if you can go further than anyone else and to explore the outer edges of what happens to your body and your mind when you go further than anybody else ever has.

1:43:54I'm still exploring it. It's still like, I just, I think you're right. You've said things that are true. Like you're absolutely right. And there's more layers to it. But I'm also sort of multifaceted in a sense that I may be feeling one area. Like at some time I might be having that hunting phase where I'm like lured myself in the back and I'm just observing every single possible detail of every person at like a level that no one realizes is happening. And then there's other times where I'm just in there and enjoying a great conversation and we're totally working as a team. The third night, there was seven of us that ran many of the loops to finish as a unit at 300 miles.

1:44:44And for me, running as that unit brought me such incredible gratitude. It's pretty cool. That's a pretty cool thing. cool because uh there were some of these runners that were like they were on their way out but because we like worked as a team and like i called the the go when to go and when to slow like i so like we would like run to a certain point i said okay now we're gonna like walk for like 20 seconds relax yourself you guys are doing i just say you guys do amazing keep moving okay we're gonna get this now i said okay uh we're gonna start running again when we run and i was just like speaking to the group most of the time and like just calling it out.

1:45:27To me, that was fun. It was like being like a commander of a group. But as myself, every single person there added energy to me. It was like animals moving in nature. Like, I mean, animals moving in nature move more efficiently than individuals. So like there was a strategic element to that as well. I wasn't thinking like, you know, taking out the person next to me. I was thinking of all of us are moving further together and we're like actually working as a unit. And this is freaking amazing that we get to 300 miles. You know, three years earlier, no one had even made it to 300 miles. Now we had 22 people make it to 300 miles and seven of them were in our group.

1:46:06So it was so cool. That was probably one of my favorite experiences of the whole race was running in that unit. Yeah, yeah, that is cool. It was fun. All right, let's get the truth. Let's get Kelly up here and we're going to put all your bullshit to the test. There you go. Kelly, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. It's an honor to be here. Have you ever done a podcast before? No, not like this. All right. Well, welcome. Let all of this like disappear. Nice little surprise. I'm delighted to have you here. Let's just begin with, if you're giving Harvey a report card on the veracity of what he shared, like how's he doing?

1:46:49What do we not know? What hasn't come up? Who's the real Harvey here? I would have to give him a C+. C-plus there? What? Scathing. I thought it was like at least A-minus or something. Maybe B-minus. B-minus. Oh, man. No, he's, I think he's still figuring himself out a lot. So when he kind of, I feel like, dances around questions sometimes, and you do a very good job at bringing him back to the original question, I think a lot of it is he is still searching for what's inside of him. There's also a reason why I'm still with Harvey after over 10 years. I want to understand this. And that's a compliment.

1:47:33You guys have a unique relationship. We do. I'm still trying to figure him out, I guess, is what I'm saying, too. And I think that's one of the biggest attractions is I learned something new about him almost daily. So if you had to answer the why question, or if somebody asks you like, why does Harvey do this? Like what's beneath the surface? I would say that when he talks about wanting to make a difference in other people's life, I would say that is pretty much the number one reason. I can see that. It truly, truly is. I've never met anybody and he's never said this. I'm just saying this from what I take from him.

1:48:12I seriously think he just wants to leave this world a better place. and anything he can do to bring more goodness, positivity, if he can help others discover what they're capable of doing, that's his life goal. Like that's what he wants to do. And certainly running further and longer than anyone else. It's just as good a way as any other. It's a good place to start. That's the only stage I got. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the card you're playing. Right. It's a good card. Yeah. And, you know, I think you are correct when you say that he's this like lovable, you know, kind human. Me and my daughter joke, we always say we're going to get a bumper sticker made that says I break for lightning bugs because we have gotten whiplash before.

1:49:02Because we've been driving on a back road and a lightning bug flies in our path and he's got to break really hard. So we don't know. I don't do that all the time now. Yeah. Yeah. The Harvey that people see is they see runner Harvey and school teacher Harvey. People don't get to see Harvey as my partner, which is, I mean, it's who he is, but it's like a whole other piece that nobody gets to see. And what is that like? I mean, you, I mean, you're an ultra runner yourself, right? So you understand this lifestyle and you're engaged with it just the same. And you have this unique relationship because you don't necessarily live together all the time.

1:49:40Right. Yeah. So we've been together for over 10 years. We don't live together. We live about an hour and 45 minutes apart. And I can honestly say that Harvey's training has never impeded our relationship, which is huge. Is that because you're training with him or because he's so conscious of making sure that? He's so conscious. And when he says he doesn't have a plan when he gets up for like what he's going to do that day, he's serious. That is where we differ in training because I am more, okay, Monday I've got to run this many miles and I've got to run at this pace. And Harvey is more like, okay, so I'm feeling like 20 feels good today, but I'm going to do my 20 here, here, and here so it doesn't affect any of our plans for the day.

1:50:27I don't feel like training has ever impeded us. And in the 10 years that we've been together, he drives to Circleville every weekend. And in over 10 years, never once, never one time has he said, Kelly, I'm really busy this weekend and I've got a lot of stuff to do and I'm not going to make it up to Circleville. That is huge. Yeah, that's interesting. And what, yeah. So those are - My heart is warmed. My heart is warmed. In fairness, Monday through Friday, this guy is like running all the time and like teaching and that's pretty much it, right? I imagine it's fairly monastic during the week for you.

1:51:05Yeah. So I kind of really consider it as like, I 100 % live in two different places. I live with you, you know, three nights a week and in Cincinnati four nights a week. And so, yeah, like for the last like five or so years, I've been really involved with also taking care of my mother. So that would be a couple of nights a week in Cincinnati. And we just moved her to Maryland to be near my sister. But otherwise, my teaching day and I do a lot of like running related stuff. You're right. Monday through Thursday. Every other thing like friends and stuff like that. And that's another thing that people don't see of you is that up until just October, two days a week, you were driving 40 minutes round trip to go care for your mother and not just stop in.

1:51:50Hey, mom, how are you? Mom, let's get up and let's go for a walk. Let's go to the store. Let's go out to eat. Let's socialize. So two days a week, you also were doing that. Yeah, it was busy. So basically I need to abandon this quest that I'm on to like uncover the darkness here. Like this is like Harvey is as you see him, right? And more. Which is, you know, I have hope for humanity. Thank you for that. I do. I truly do. I really, I feel like he is everything that everybody sees and so much more. Thank you. That's very sweet. Well, we were going for the record for longest engagement, but we actually like have put a date on our wedding day now.

1:52:37Oh, wow. It's like June 1st. Yeah. So we're actually getting married, but we've really been like practically married. We've been married. You've been together for 10 years. What took you so long? I know, right? You're just turning that engagement into its own ultra? Take our time. But we actually met in the North Coast 24-hour race. We met in a 24-hour race, and Kelly is always very supportive of me. So I couldn't do the types of things I do without her, like, encouragement, like, being on my team, even if she's not there. You know, she may think that some of my ideas are a little delusional at times, perhaps, but she always has supported me.

1:53:20So, you know, like when I was doing that Biggs Backyard, another thing that gave me like oomph, you know, I mentioned some of the things already, but like judges like telling me, hey, Kelly and Carly, our rescue dog, are out running this morning. And just by the fact that they're out running, you know, and I'm on my fourth day, like I could like kind of connect with that energy. It just, it definitely made me feel better. They just made me feel like, you know, they, well, we're both running in different places in the country, but we're both like, it's a connective energy, which is really nice.

1:53:53And what's your relationship to ultras and racing these days? Like, what does that look like? I've been running ultras for, let's see, I think my first one was in 2011. Yeah. That sounded about right. And I think we met in 2013. Yeah, so I've done 24-hour races, 100-mile races. I ran Badwater in 2022. Oh, wow. You had a remarkable experience with Badwater because it was like just making it each cut off by like literally a minute. By seconds. Like seconds in some places. And I mean, she hallucinated. She had like every reason was there to like have quit multiple times. Yeah, but I did have an amazing crew.

1:54:39Phenomenal. And it's something about Kelly also is like her training doesn't necessarily always come together. But for whatever reason, she is a very strong with executing the race. It's like some people, they train really, really amazing and get all together. And then they get to the race and it just doesn't happen. It's like she's the opposite. Like her training can just be raveled. I mean, before, oh, my God. And I'm like, wow. And it's not necessarily like maybe some injury happens or this or that. But then you get to the race and you are just like a machine. You're like, I'm going to finish.

1:55:13I know. And then I'm always like, wow, I wonder how I would do if I could actually have a solid training block. Yeah. That's so interesting. The person who's so regimented about their training, though, tend to be the people who are less resilient when things go wrong in the middle of a race, right? Because it's a control thing. Sometimes. To have the wherewithal to go into a race knowing that your training wasn't great and still execute is illustrative of somebody who has a tremendous amount of resilience. And you touched on – No joke. No joke. No joke. I mean I seriously – and I had been out there for years prior to me even applying and running.

1:55:55So I knew what I was getting myself into. But then there was this small part of me that thought maybe it's not that bad. Maybe it really, the hype of the heat and, you know, just all of it, maybe it's not that bad. Oh my gosh. No, it's terrible. The whole thing is terrible. It was so hard. It was so hard. And I have experience with ultras. And the biggest thing that threw me for such a loop out there was the depth perception. So you would run for hours and hours and hours. and the mountains would never get closer. Or this little line that goes through this mountain over to the side is still there.

1:56:3720 miles later, I look over, oh my goodness, there's that line. So the depth perception is the one thing that really threw me for a loop. Panamint coming off of Towns Pass, you see Panamint in the distance. Oh yeah, it's like. It takes forever to get to it. Well, good for you. I want to talk about the squid game thing, But before we transition to that, just so we're clear. nothing else about Harvey that like we need to know that the passerby wouldn't understand or any fast ones that he pulled in the middle of the interview where you felt like, no, come on, Harvey. It's okay, honey. Yeah, I'm thinking.

1:57:21I was making so many mental notes when I was listening. I do like, oh, what did Rich say? He said something. And I'm like, okay, Harvey, come on now. And I can't remember what it was, though. Shoot, yeah, maybe it'll come to me in a minute. But yeah, I gave him a C plus, a B minus, somewhere between there, because I think you're still figuring things out as well. What drives me? What drives you? I'm still trying to figure out what drives you. So were you surprised when I won that race, the 450 miles? Good question. That's good. Like when you were watching this from afar. Okay, hold on. This is coming back now.

1:57:59This is coming back now. Okay, there we go. So Rich said to you, and if you remember correctly, when we were having lunch prior to coming here, I asked you the exact same question. I said, but those other people that are out in the race, they also think they're going to win. They're also going for the win. You're also going for the win. What makes you different? And you asked that, you said, what differentiates you from the others? You know, they could be looking all around saying, oh, I'm taking you all down. You're all done. And you're looking at everybody as the Wolverine and you're taking everybody down.

1:58:35So what makes you different? And I asked you that exact same question before we came here. And you still, you cannot. That was only like day two of the Wolverine. But a lot of people ask me about Harvey's training. That's what people typically want to know about. You know, how many miles does he run a week? How often does he do hills? What's his speed work like? I can't answer any of that. And he probably can't either because. Yeah, it's interesting and refreshing, you know, especially on social media. it's all about what's your morning routine and exactly what is your zone too. And all these people get really obsessed with the minutiae of the lifestyle habits of high performing people.

1:59:18But in my experience, a lot, not all, but a lot of the most elite people in their respective disciplines and fields have a very different relationship with those kinds of things. It's much more intuitive in nature and not regimented in the way that one might be led to believe if If you're watching a lot of reels on Instagram, you know, from people who are not elite telling you what they learned or what you should do or should not do with respect to certain things. And I think there's, I don't know what the lesson in that is, but I think there is a lesson in that. Yeah, and I think it's your mind and it's your psychology that I think separates him from others.

2:00:00Well, Laz said it. You're the guy who won't give up. so I think it's more honey badger than monarch on some level like it's that you know like not a death grip has a pejorative kind of connotation but like you're latching on to something and you have the tenacity to not let go until you achieve your desired outcome I think something else about you that a lot of people may not know is that for as long as I've known you he may have had he may have a goal going into a race, whether it's like a distance or a time goal, I've never seen him disappointed. I've never seen him upset over like, oh, if I would have just done that, I could have, I could have gotten this time.

2:00:42Or if I would have just done that, I could have maybe, you know, been in second place, then third place. He celebrates every single thing he does, everything. If he doesn't hit a goal in a race, I don't think he looks at it as a failure. I think he looks at it as, you know, moving forward. If I want to do something different, I can just tweak something. But every finish is a celebration to him. Would you say that's right? I think for most part, I mean, it's, I try to find like some positive in everything. And then, but also like, if I don't do as well as I want to, that's actually can be really powerful as well.

2:01:20So for example, like with Australia, I like finished third and like things fell apart in a way, like, you know, with the going through the deep hallucinations. And it was powerful because it caused me to want to grow. So like after that, I actually changed some things. Some things real small. Like I started taking cold showers the whole month leading up to bakes. I did cold showers and I'm still doing them now, like only cold showers. Tell the truth about cold showers. What's the truth, honey? The truth is you only take a cold shower on the days you don't take hot baths. Yeah, that's true. So I do take a hot bath.

2:01:57I'm like, you get me too. I'm going to get the checks and balances here. This is what I was looking for. All right, keep going. But, you know, it's like that actually motivated me to elevate like the, you know, different things within my training, like mileage a bit more. like thinking through what did I mess up with in terms of like maybe my nutrition or like my motivation, my mind, where my mind traveled to, my pacing, all the strategies. Like I thought those through finishing third in Australia. And I set an American record doing that, like finished with 375 miles. So I was like, I was grateful that I got that.

2:02:44And I was also grateful to see Phil Gore get the new record because I felt like I was a part of that. So even though I finished third, I was delighted that Phil overcame and got the world record. I felt like I was a part of the team that helped him get there. So for me, that was beautiful. It was a celebration in Australia, but it's like everything we do, sometimes things don't go the way we expect them to go. That's okay because then it determines how we take that event. It determines where we'll go with it. You can like take that and let it destroy you. You can beat yourself down for something you did, or you can take that and say, okay, I'm going to use that to motivate myself to work harder, to like learn new tactics, to like grow into.

2:03:36So, I mean, I feel like that is an important element. Yeah. The two lessons that I extract from that are one, when you make it about something more than yourself, i.e. celebrating your friend or, you know, having the gratitude for contributing to his record, that ameliorates the sting of defeat because it's not about you and your ego. It's about more than that, which keeps you in the sport longer and keeps it fresh and interesting and encouraging no matter the result. And then the second lesson being this capacity or reflex to develop the muscle of being enthusiastic about what you learn when things don't go your way and being stoked about it.

2:04:17Like, oh my God, it didn't go my way, but look what I got out of this and I can apply this next time as opposed to the self-defeating, you know, kind of impulse to beat yourself up and feel bad because you didn't reach your goal. And I think those are lessons that are applicable no matter what you're trying to achieve in your life. And as a cross-country coach, finding that why, finding something that's bigger than you, because you'll always give yourself permission to quit. If you just leave it up to you, you can almost always find a reason to say, you know what, this is really uncomfortable.

2:04:49Like I'm going to back down. But when you have something that's bigger than you, it's harder to let other people down. So I always encouraged my athletes to find something that was outside of them that they could rely on when it got tough out there in a 5k or when the weather was, you know, not ideal and they still had to race. So I think finding that why and finding that reason that's, you know, bigger than you is. And also you touched on it earlier when you said about like, when it gets bad, you find like Harvey being Wolverine or a spirit animal. I used to have my athletes like really do some research and find somebody that they find, you know, either a great athlete or somebody that they think very highly of.

2:05:30And, you know, when it gets tough out there, that's when you're going to kind of let yourself go and think, okay, so what would so-and-so do, you know, and how would Harvey Lewis run up this hill or how would, you know, whoever they admired, how would that person tackle this hill? So I think getting out of your own body is something that I feel he does really well at. And I just think it's kind of the key to pushing through hard times. For sure. Let's talk about Squid Game. Okay. So Squid Game was the international phenomenon on Netflix, the show that swept the world and rewrote the ratings books in terms of audience share.

2:06:12I mean, the whole world was talking about that TV show. Then there was this reality show, game show concept that you found yourself involved in. So I need to know what this is all about. Because this is like, this came out of left field. I saw Harvey shared a video and I was like, wait, what? Yeah. And the interesting thing about it is we recorded it in January of 2023. So I couldn't talk about anything until now, until it was released. So I've been holding on to all this information for a year now. So yeah, Squid Game came out in 2021, I believe. And it was the most watched Netflix series to date.

2:06:55And it was shown in 94 countries. And then in 2022, they decided Netflix was going to produce a reality show based on the original Squid Game. So it was called Squid Game The Challenge. And it was going to be all the games and everything was going to be based on the original one. So it was kind of cool to be involved with it. It was the largest casted reality show in the history of TV with the largest prize pot of$4.56 million. Did they have all the cash in a, in like a Lucite cube hanging from the ceiling? Yes, they did. How did you get involved with this? So this is how I got involved with it.

2:07:34I'm not even really a big TV watcher, but we did get started on Squid Game when it came out. And it's kind of dark. And I seem to kind of be drawn to those psychological type of thriller type shows. So I loved it. But I don't know. Harvey is not really. No, I liked the show. You did. I love the show. You did. Yeah. The Korean culture and all that. And the competition. Yeah. It was very interesting. Anyway, they started casting for the reality show. And it was my 20-year-old son that actually had sent me the link and said, you should apply for this. And I think what happened, he went to apply for it, but you had to be 21.

2:08:15So the next best thing would be his mom. You shot one video. Just one video. So he sent me the link. On a whim, I sat down, came back from running. I just got back from running like four or five miles. I was like, oh yeah, I've got this link. Clicked on it, filled out the application online. I shot one 60 second video, like in one take. And I watched it and I'm like, yep, good enough. Send it on. It's just those things I thought, oh, I'll send off. I'll probably never hear anything. Within 24 hours, a casting agent from LA had texted me and we did a phone interview and then it just kind of snowballed from there.

2:08:48So it was a super in-depth process. The whole vetting took from August of 2022 until December of 2022. Just the vetting part. Yeah. So four months. Yeah. Full background check. Full background check. Psychological test. Psychological evaluation. Social media check. A lot of stuff. Big deal. So it was filmed in London in January of 2023. So they flew 456 of us over to London where we were isolated three to four days prior to filming. in our hotel rooms. So we weren't allowed to talk to each other. We could only come out of our hotel room like three times a day to pick up our food. And then we started filming.

2:09:29They put us all on these coach buses and bused us to the middle of this field with these two big old military hangars. And that's where it all started. Wow. And they took you through the challenges just the way they unfold in the show without the dying part? Yes, without the dying part. But they tried to simulate it as best as they could. So we had, we did have these like ink packs on. So if we were to get eliminated, they would activate our pack and it would explode. So then like, you know, this dark ink would kind of bleed out onto our shirt. No spoilers. Everybody should watch the show. The show's doing really well on Netflix.

2:10:09Like we're recording this in December, but I checked maybe a handful of days ago and it was like in the top 10 shows. So a lot of people are watching this show. So are you getting like stopped? Do people recognize you now because you're on this TV show? Well, you know, I teach middle school. So of course my middle schoolers are like, hey, there's that teacher that was in Squid Game. Unbelievable. So that's fun. Yeah, and I have got stopped at the local pharmacy actually when we were getting ready to leave. But they were like, hey. So yeah, it was interesting. It was fun. Yeah, they're casting for season two.

2:10:44Oh, they're doing it again. Wow. Would you ever do a reality show? No. I don't think so. No. I always said no. I'm publicly exposed enough. Right. I don't need any more of that. I'm fulfilled with this form of media, I think. I'm okay with this. That was the first time that I had applied to a reality show. It's got to be disorienting to go someplace, be isolated. It's sort of like you're on jury duty and you just get bussed around. and you have no control over your life. Yes, yeah. And also because it's reality TV, of course they're manipulating things and you realize like, oh, this isn't a documentary.

2:11:25Like this is, you know, this is its own entirely unique thing. But the sets were amazing. I mean, when you would walk into a set, it was literally like stepping onto the set of the movie Squid Game. I would assume that on some level, you were cast because of your background in endurance athletics? How did that come into play for better or worse as a contestant? I think without giving too much away, I think it helped and it hindered me in some situations. But definitely when I was there, all I kept thinking is like, I ran through Death Valley and it was 124 degrees. No one else here did that. Nobody else.

2:12:08Yeah. I'm the honey badger, monarch, wolverine in this scenario. You survived that cold hangar for quite some time. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So that was difficult. There were people that were passing out. Yeah. There was a couple of people passing out in that particular scene. Wow. Yeah. The conditions definitely in the first game was, it was rough for sure. It was cold. It was very cold. Yeah. And you'll see it in the first episode. Well, it just bumped to the top of my queue. I'll check it out. We've been going a long time and I got to let you guys get back to your life. But I do want to kind of end with a couple quick questions.

2:12:44I mean, Jesse, as I mentioned, you know, shared a few questions. One of the things that he wanted to know was you, Harvey, being the Superman of running, how do you handle lazy people in your inner circle? That is a great question. Because you're a very compassionate man. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, honestly. But you're not a lazy man. No, no. I try to find like a little way to try to like nudge people in a positive way. So it depends on the situation. Like if I'm in school, like I know I have to be careful with kids and like leave them with more positives. I have friends growing up that had a teacher say something like, you'll never amount to anything.

2:13:34Like that's outrageous. Like for someone to say something like that. I want to be very encouraging with my words, like where I like am dealing with like students. Like I want to like nudge them in a way that like motivates them. Now, if it's one of my close friends and they're being lazy or someone in my inner circle. I do try to like, I'm just like, we're going to go do some, some walking. This is where I say he does it in a manipulative way. Manipulative, honey. With a smile on his face. Right. I know. For example, Okay, honey. If I'm tired and I'm like, Oh, you're not lazy. You're never lazy.

2:14:15I don't ever say that. I just feel like being lazy. No, no, no. I swear in the next two minutes, he will say something like, So I talked to Mike Fremont yesterday. No, honey. I did not say that. You're reading into that wrong. I would never say that about you, honey. And I swear, this is how Harvey does it. It's like, that's the nudge. That's the nudge. Passive aggressive. Sometimes. I don't think so. In a good way. Right? All right. That's a good answer, though. I'm satisfied with that answer. Okay. In the Hollywood movie of Harvey Lewis's life, we're going to play a little casting couch here.

2:14:50Who plays Harvey in the movie? This is my question, not Jesse's. Are you asking Kelly? Well, you should take a take. Don't tell me you haven't thought about it. That's so bad. Oh. Well, I mean, honestly, I think Matthew McConaughey is like, he's just hilarious. I love that. He's got the right energy for you. Yeah, he's really great with that. So, I mean, I would like, I mean, yeah, that would be incredible. But, honey, what do you think? Kelly, who's playing Harvey? You're the casting director. He's so dynamic. He can transcend different characters. Yeah, that's a good one. Sometimes I think of like John Heater from Napoleon Dynamite.

2:15:37Oh, there we go. There's a knuckleball in your direction. I love Napoleon. I know you do. I know you do. So that's fine. There you go. A little bit of a different energy from the reconnaissance. Yeah, yeah. I don't know that Matthew McConaughey is. But I say that just because of like he's kind of quirky and even him and the movie about, oh, it's a baseball. Oh, bench warmers, bench warmers. That's it. Like he just has this quirkiness. And that's a side that a lot of people don't see of you that I love. And it's this, I don't know. Like you just say weird things. That's great, honey. You say things like, hey, like how many times have you came?

2:16:20Do you guys want to have like a popsicle party or something tonight? A popsicle party. And my kids and myself were like. I don't think I've done that in a little while. We're like, what? Yeah, I love popsicles. Is it 1950? 50? What else? Oh my gosh. I can tell you so many things that he says. And my kids look at me and they're like. You know, Mark Wahlberg, I think he'd be pretty good too. He'd be pretty good. He's going to have to trim down a little. I'm going to have to work on it. Yeah. That's right. Or you're going to have to beef up. Actually, I saw the Napoleon film. And that was actually quite an amazing film too.

2:16:56But there was a preview. He's in this new film now where he's doing these adventure races. and he's got this dog. It's coming out in the next few months. I can relate in the sense of our dog. Like Carly is my number one training partner, like our rescue dog, Carly. So a lot of people don't know that, that our dog is like, she has got such incredible energy and like her mindset, like that dog will never turn. Like she defends the front of house. Like there could be a Tyrannosaurus Rex and she would just go straight after it without a doubt. And it's like this dog is like this tall, but it's from her pound days.

2:17:33Like she is just amazing. And like for her, running is an absolute gift. Every time we run, she just loves running so much. Like I don't know anybody on the planet that likes running as much as Carly. So when we run together, we're out in the country in the middle of nowhere. We're just having so much fun just running as hard as we can at times or just cruising along. And it's just a blast. so Wahlberg because he did this movie I got two I thought about this a little bit one would be a younger Billy Bob Thornton a little dark some darkness there though I don't know if that matches up so I would balance that out with a young Ron Howard because there's a little Rishi Cunningham in you I think too what do you think McConaughey Yeah.

2:18:26What are you going to do? Right? I'm so mad. Well, you know. All right. I'm so mad. Final thing. I spent a lot of time thinking about the nature of change, why some people are able to change, others aren't, why some are able to set goals and achieve them and others struggle. How do you think about, you know, we've talked a lot about human capacity and the fact that we all have latent potential within us that goes untapped. And you're kind of on the outer edges of trying to see where that limit might be for yourself. And that speaks to the broader issue of all of our capacities. And I think that's your greatest influence is getting us to reimagine what we might be capable of in our own lives.

2:19:11So to the person who does struggle with this, who's trying to level up or shoulder responsibility for a positive change in their life, like how do you get that person activated and on the right track towards sustainable positive change? Right now is really timing because we're coming to the end of the year and moving into the new year. And every year I like to, it's kind of like your month that you take away, I think, and reset yourself. I like to really put out there a list of goals I have for the year ahead. And it can be a couple goals. For me, it's like 10 or 12 goals. and like those are the real like points I want to really invest time and like finding a routine.

2:20:05So routine is so critical. Whatever you start for two days, three days, it's not yet a routine. But once you get into like that second week, you've established a new routine. So just start with having some time alone with yourself and a place that you can really get into that deep thought and you can start this any time of the year, but having, maybe it's easiest to start with a few goals, but start with those goals and then show up. Show up each week. If you miss a week, that's okay. Like yoga, for example. Kelly started yoga and she's been having trouble with her back. That's kind of led to her knee.

2:20:47And like that yoga, like doing that once or twice a week has been super powerful. And like, it's really helped to alleviate some of your discomfort. And we miss yoga maybe this week or last week, I don't remember. But then it's not going to stop us from the next week of picking that back up. So finding those powerful routines. I'm a person that's ADHD. I also sometimes run from being a type A, super dialed in with every single thing having to be a certain way. But on the other hand, I also see the power of the routines. So like every Monday going into bigs, I had started the yoga and like the yoga is really powerful because it's not something I routinely do, but in the like five or six weeks leading up, it was also helping with like the mental aspect.

2:21:40And so putting down those goals, and I feel like writing them down is so powerful. And even telling someone you trust is so powerful because then it holds you more accountable than if it's just in your mind and it's sort of fleeting. When you write it down and then it's somewhere where you see it, like it might be in your calendar, your planner, or maybe somewhere on the wall, it's powerful. I feel like having something that we're driving towards each year that involves some level of growth somewhere with relationships or with work or with our athletics or wherever it is, Like that's really something that will give you more back.

2:22:23And so that's where I would start with it. I think with people like that are struggling with getting a routine, because I think it starts before that. It's easy to say like, you know, get into a routine of doing this, but something else comes right before that. And that's taking the action to do it. And I think a lot of people are waiting for motivation or they're waiting for that feeling of like, Like, well, once I feel like I want to do this, you know, then I'll start. My biggest thing that I've taken away when I've coached students and adults is don't wait for the motivation because that's a fleeting feeling and we can't always control the way we feel.

2:23:01So you have to just show up. And that's the one thing I think you have to make that commitment to yourself with yourself that even when I feel like I don't want to go here, even when I feel like I don't want to get out of bed 45 minutes earlier than normal. I'm going to make that commitment to myself right now that I'm still going to do it. And that's where I think a lot of people falter when they come to like having to create a routine or make a routine or set goals is that they're always like, but I don't feel like doing this. But then once that routine gets established, that's when you feel euphoria and you feel good and you feel better about yourself.

2:23:40So I think that would be mine, would be that, you know, having people understand that you don't always have to feel motivated to go do this and you're not. So. Very good advice. Yes. In fact, how you feel about doing the thing really shouldn't have anything to do with the doing of the thing itself. I beat this drum all the time. Mood follows action or to quote Dr. Andrew Huberman, action first, thoughts, feelings, and perceptions follow. 100%. But we do have this instinct where we want to wait until we feel like doing the thing. And we also want to know how it's going to play out. We want to know what that roadmap is going to look like and where and when the destination will be arrived upon.

2:24:29And you don't get to have that. That's a privilege that doesn't exist. It's a journey. So developing that reflex to action or that inclination towards action, irrespective of how you feel about it, is the thing that gets you out of bed when you don't want to get out of bed or out the door when it's freezing cold or raining or, you know, choose your adventure. Absolutely. So, yeah. You agree with that, Harvey? I'd say so. Yeah, it's like, I don't know, I struggle with this with my students. I want all my students to succeed. And then like my buddy, Greg Armstrong, he's a science teacher down in Tennessee.

2:25:08And I just, he gets kids out in experiential learning. I mean, he's taking kids to Africa or to Central America every three months. And he even built an amphitheater in the back of their school by hand with his students. I mean, it's like those sort of experiential learning they have like a powerful impact when you get to go and like interact with someone who's like living in a developing country with no access to water. And like they're building these well water with a run for water. It's like that has some sort of spark that goes even beyond these. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a, yeah, I think that's a really, that's an insightful kind of caveat to this whole thing.

2:25:54I mean, I think what Kelly's talking about is how do you develop the resourcefulness to welcome discomfort into your life. And you're really speaking to the idea of how do you get somebody really excited about the journey of learning and expanding the aperture of your life experience, right? And as somebody who's every day dealing with young minds and thinking about how do I get this person interested or excited about this material, there's an emotional connection that you have to create. And immersive experiential situations are obviously going to engender that. And there is something lasting about that that can then create a trajectory for a young person.

2:26:37So I think that is a really insightful thought. I think we did it. I think we're done. Thank you so much. How do you guys feel? Yeah, I feel amazing. Honestly, it was a blast. It was a total surprise. I know. We had no idea that Kelly was going to hop in for a couple of questions. Thank you for leaping in the chair. You never did this. You never have. Good. It's therapeutic. It is very therapeutic. Let's get honest. It's like. He really is an amazing person. I mean, he mails me letters. He'll mail me a card. Like, I'll just go. Honey, you are. You are not lazy, honey. I'll never. And all those things.

2:27:14No, you do. It just keeps getting better. Harvey and Steve start looking better. I thought you were going to come on here and it's like, come on, let me tell you. And then you just shine a brighter light on this guy. I know. I know. But I really, I mean, I do know. I mean, there are some other things like, but for the most part, no. Yeah, we'll be on vacation. And like a month later, I'll check my mail and I'll have like a postcard from where Harvey sent me a postcard while we were on vacation together. Like I'm having a great time with you in wherever we're at. And I'm just like, who does this?

2:27:48All right. Well, hurry up and get married, you guys. Harvey, congratulations. Like just, you know, so much respect for not just these extraordinary athletic feats, but really how you comport yourself as a human being and the way that you exude the values that are important to you. And, you know, I really do think it's heroic and it is the type and archetype of hero that we need now more than ever in this weird divided world that we find ourselves in. And what you do cuts through that noise. You know, it really is a signal in the noise. And I appreciate you. I'm here to support you. You are my spirit animal.

2:28:28Thank you. I'm not going with the monarch or the honey bat. I'm going with the Harvey. I remember what I said. You're a hero. So honestly, I remember listening to your podcast as I'm out there running long runs. And just you have been able to do things that are amazing. I mean, the fact that you've had like the number of people you've had on this, just the realm of different backgrounds. It's just incredible. So I mean, it's like I ran into a runner this morning, like up on the mountain. I was coming down. She was going up and Kimberly from Virginia. and she's like, oh yeah, I love ritual. I love ritual.

2:29:06And what he did for his daughter was amazing for her birthday. Oh, that's right. He just celebrated her birthday. Yeah. So I mean, it's like you're hitting people. After our episode, the last one, I went to Cyprus like for spring break, like a few months after that. And like in Cyprus, there were like all these people in Cyprus that had, oh yeah, we love the ritual episode. Oh yeah. And so it's crazy. Can you imagine it? You have people in like over 100 countries listening to you. It's great. Freaks me out a little bit. Yeah, it's really wild, man. I get all up in my head or whatever. But this is a team effort, obviously.

2:29:42As you can see, everyone just sees the Black Curtains. But, you know, it's not just me.

2:29:57That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

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2:31:19Portraits by Davey Greenberg Graphic and social media assets Courtesy of Daniel Solis Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting And website management And of course our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt And Harry Mathis Appreciate the love, love the support See you back here soon Peace Plants Namaste

2:31:52Thank you.