How Emily Harrington Became The First Woman To Free Climb El Cap’s Golden Gate In Under 24 Hours

31:31There's one sequence in the film that is definitely like the most terrifying thing that I've seen in a climbing movie. Can we talk about the fall? Like, I don't want to give away everything, but like, we have to talk about this. Yeah. That was an unfortunate incident. So set it up. Yeah. So I had tried to achieve this goal, free climbing Golden Gate in a day in mid-November of 2019 and I came incredibly close to success. Like I essentially failed in the very last hard section of the route around 3 ,000 feet off the ground. I just like couldn't complete this one section. And so it was, it was a failure.

32:13You're done, go home, that's it. And I, so I decided to try again, maybe a week later, maybe 10 days later. And you have to, I think of it like it's kind of like doing an ultra marathon. Like you put in so much physical and mental energy. And usually after you do something like that, you need to like take a break, take a step back. But for me, I had this had this angst of like, I just want to get it done. Like, I just want to do it this year. I want it to be done. I want to complete it, that ticking clock type feeling. And so I set out to try again not long after that one like very close attempt.

32:55And this was attempt three? Yeah, it was attempt number three. And I remember waking up that morning. It was like at, you know, whatever, three in the morning. And I just remember I just didn't want to go climbing. Like I just didn't want to. I was feeling afraid. I was feeling hesitant. It was just like all those red flags in your head. But I just pushed through. I was just like really kind of like adopted that like almost punishment mindset of my youth. Like just do it. Just like suck it up. But not listening to yourself. Not really being honest with yourself. It was very much like just suck it up.

33:31Get up there. Go do this thing. Get it over with. And you can't just like get it over with when you're trying to do a 24-hour ascent of LCAP. Like it's just a bad mindset. So basically I got to the base. It was really, really cold. It was the end of November. There was a storm coming the next day. There was just all this like anxious energy in the air. There was also like a lot of humidity as well. Like I think the storm was coming, but it was also like below freezing. So there was just like, it almost felt like there was a little bit of frost on the wall. But I just kept like, no matter what happened, I was just like, stop thinking about it.

34:10You need to go. You need to go. You need to go. So I started climbing. And Alex and I, what we do is we simul climb the bottom of the route. So you're basically like ascending the wall together, just attached with the rope. It's kind of like between like normal free climbing when you're just being belayed pitch by pitch and like free soloing. It's kind of like it's not ideal for either person to fall in this scenario, but it's used as a speed tactic. Doing it that way allows you to move more quickly. We move so fast, like so much faster. And so I'd started and I just was like not placing very much gear because you want to like be able to spread out your protection over a really long distance because you don't want to have to stop.

34:49So I was just placing like very little protection. And I just remember like in my head, like just telling myself, like, be confident, be confident, be confident, like keep moving, keep moving, keep moving. I just was motoring and I just, I hadn't placed very much gear. And I just remember like, I just kind of remember slipping and falling over, tipping over sideways. Like I think my foot slipped something like that. You fall 50 feet. I fell about 50 feet. Yep. And the way the bottom of the wall is like pretty, it's less than vertical. So it's a slab. That means that the falls are very not clean.

35:28So I hit like I just kind of tumbled down and hit like a ledge and flipped upside down, hit my head, lost consciousness. It was very bad.

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38:27In the film, the camera is on Alex at the base. Yeah. It's the middle of the night. It's pitch dark out. And suddenly the rope starts to, you know, like you can hear a little bit and then the rope starts to go like this and he like grabs it. Yeah. And then holds on to it. And then all you hear is like you screaming in the distance. It's like the worst, like wailing. It's an absolute horror movie. Yeah, it's horrible. And he's like, oh my God. And starts trying to get up there to find out what's going on. But like in classic Alex Honnold, like complete calmness to handle a crisis. But that was absolutely terrifying to watch.

39:11and then to see, you know, you get kind of hauled off, you know, in, you know, you're all in, what do you call that? Like in traction, you know, put into the - Yeah, on like the backboard and everything, yeah. I mean, absolutely. Like, that's crazy shit, man. Yeah, I often leave the theater when that scene comes on. Do you? It's gotta be hard for you to see that. Yeah, it's just hard. It just keeps going. Like the wailing and the, it's just very visceral and like traumatic and so I often like don't, I prefer to not watch it. Yeah, and he's like, it's bad, it's bad. Like, you know, he's like, knew it's bad.

39:48Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And then you're like, okay, I'm gonna do it again. Yeah, well, that's, I mean, that's where. Like, it ended up not being that bad. It wasn't that bad. It looked really bad. The thing that I think happened to me though is people are often like, oh, why didn't you, you know, did you ever think about quitting? Did you ever think about not trying again? Like, didn't that experience like kind of like scare you into not wanting to do it. But the thing is, like, I pretty much immediately recognized, like, all of those red flags along the way that I could totally control in the future.

40:26Like, it wasn't like this huge objective hazard, like, random rock fall or, like, some sort of avalanche or something that you really can't predict. It was like everything that happened was fully within my control. Yeah. I can choose when to go climbing. I can choose how much gear to place. I can choose how fast to go. So I just felt like I had made all these mistakes. So I had a lot of agency moving forward in terms of what I could do differently. What I took from that, though, was something a little bit different. Like you're in the hospital and you're very upset and you're like, I did everything right.

41:03I didn't do anything wrong. I did everything right. and and to me I was like yeah you can do everything right and this is still what can happen you know what I mean so it's like that idea that oh yes I can control this because I know how to do all these moves and all of that that's that's where this that's where it gets scary for me you know because it's you know your your husband talks a lot about like ego versus humility like you did a whole TED talk on it right and so it's like the humility required to understand that yes you can do everything right and still like nature might have a different plan for you.

41:38Yeah, totally. And I think as climbers and mountain people, we kind of accept a certain level of that in everything, no matter where you fall on that risk spectrum. Yeah. You go back the following year for the next season, you train your butt off, you work all of those challenging aspects of the wall that were tripping you up previously. and it's attempt number four and and uh you're kind of like i mean we can like i don't want to do like a race report type thing where we do like every aspect of this i'm watching this going please make it at the top because i don't know if i can handle watching her do this again from the bottom so much but you're very close where you you then fall and it's another like you see you fall and you see your head like hitting the rock and you're like, oh, this is not happening again.

42:34Yeah, that's exactly what it felt like. That time it felt like I was doing everything right. I was just crushing it. I felt so good. And then I just kind of slipped and fell. And then I felt stupid for smashing my head. And it just, yeah, it was just this crushing disappointment that I felt. in that moment um you're very emotional uh i mean you essentially have like a breakdown your head is bleeding like it looks bad like i saw your head hit the rock i'm like who knows what actually because you don't know like this could be a really bad concussion you don't you don't actually know um your confidence is erased like you're just a mess you're a wreck um you've got alex there You've got Adrian there and they're tending to you.

43:24But I thought it was so interesting that Adrian's like, as you begin to calm down, he's like, you know, I think you can do this. And I was like, oh, my God, he's going to push her to do this. Like, I would have thought he would be like, look, there'll be another day. You know, like your skills are dialed. Like, you know, it just wasn't your day. We're going to have to do this again. but for him to say, I know you. And like, I know that, you know, you can make this happen. I was like, oh my God, I guess that's the climbing mentality. Cause it's like, who knows what's actually going on in your skull, you know, at that time.

44:00Also to beat, to like have all of your, you're like, all of your confidence is gone. Yeah. That was the biggest thing. All of these things you need. Yeah. So we did do like a, there was like a pretty heavy, like first aid, like concussion assessment to make sure that I was actually wasn't showing signs of concussion, which I didn't. That didn't make it into the movie. No, I didn't lose consciousness. There was a lot of things that, you know, we're all like woofers, wilderness responders. So we like, we did the whole scenario and Adrian is quite good at these situations because he encounters them a lot just with his profession as a mountain guide.

44:37And so he was like, you know, he was rationally like, I think you're okay. We're up here. Really the best way out of this is up because we're that high on the wall. It's quite hard to bail down. So it really was just like, okay, we either like ascend the ropes to get out and then walk the three hours down. The safest and quickest way to get out of here is to just complete this thing. Or you try again because I, you know, he's like, or you try again because I think you're okay. Physically, you're okay. You don't have a concussion. So why not just give it another try? And I think that was the attitude that I needed to hear.

45:22And that like true belief in me when I really did like, you're right, confidence erased. This isn't happening. I can't believe this is happening again. Like how could this be like disbelief just like kind of shattered, I think. My spirit was shattered. And I think, yeah, having him in that position and telling me that he thought I could do it and that I needed to try again was really, really important. Obviously, he knows you better than anyone. Exactly. And wouldn't have said that if he didn't truly believe that you could do it. So, what makes that so profound for me is, you know, your husband, your life partner, like, has that like kind of conviction and belief in you, which is really cool.

46:09Um, and just the experience of, of, of, of prevailing, like pushing through like that, you know, this is like, if it's a movie, this is like the second act, you know, like the, this is where all hope is lost. Right. And somehow you find a way to prevail. And like, isn't that the whole, the whole like ball game with climbing, like from you being 10 years old at the Boulder Reservoir and being like, I was scared, but I, but I overcame it and got to the top. And like, that is the most like, you know, on, on El Cap, like you're having the most extreme version of that experience. And it was, it was one of the more profound experiences of my life was like that climbing again.

46:52It really was that flow state. Like I, it's hard to explain. It was like, I wasn't even there. It's like I was watching myself in a way and I was just executing the moves and it felt easy. How are you maintaining your energy levels over 21 hours, you know, on that, on that wall? Like what is the hydration and the feeling? I know like you guys ran out of water, right? We did run out of water. That was a bummer. That was that right before the last pitch. Yeah. We, you know, obviously like at first Alex was supporting me. So he was carrying a backpack And he was just like ascending the rope a lot of the times.

47:29And so he had a pretty heavy backpack with like snacks and water. And then Adrian actually came down from the top and he also brought like water and snacks. And so you're just kind of constantly feeling just like, you know, any like triathlon ultra run type thing. Every hour you're feeling every pitch you're drinking water and eating a little bit. What is it that you're eating? Like are you eating like, you know, bars and nuts and things like that? What kind of food? Everybody's different. But yeah, like bars and nuts and dried fruit. I don't like to eat like real food up there as much. I remember Alex being like, you need to bring like a sandwich.

48:04I was like, I don't think a sandwich is right for me. A sandwich. But a lot of like – I also dealt with a lot of cramping. So like some salty things as well, like making sure to get electrolytes. Because it's crazy. You'll like start – on big walls, your hands will start to cramp and they just kind of like form like this and you can't – you have to like physically open your fingers. Yeah, like Tetsy or whatever they call that. Yeah, I don't know what it's called. And like at some point you have to go to the bathroom, right? Like how does that work? Well, you just pee off the wall basically. And I'm very good at it.

48:39It's much harder for women, but I do have a good system that I use. And then, yeah, on a 24-hour scent, you generally go to the bathroom before or you just don't go at all just because that's kind of like how your body works. but usually it is like very much leave no trace principles much like in the mountains so we carry wag bags with us and then you just like yeah carry it up and out you bring it out with you yeah um most people who who do this climb that you did in 21 hours do it over like five days right yeah five to seven ish five to seven days and you're setting up what is it called like where you kind of set up a ledge yeah and you're and you're literally sleeping on the wall it's like It's like a piece of nylon with aluminum poles and you kind of like construct it and then it becomes really taut.

49:27And so you can sit on it and sleep on it and you set it up and clip it into the wall. And that's your problem. How is it possible to fall asleep on those things? Oh, you'd be surprised. So I climbed Golden Gate for the first time. I climbed it over six days. It's also not in the film. In 2015, Adrian and I went up and climbed it over many days. And it's interesting how like you just are doing so much all the time, all day, that when you finally do get to lay down and be horizontal, you just fall asleep. Like it's amazing. Humans are very adaptable in terms of like what – your body just goes to sleep.

50:04It just looks terrifying to me. I mean like I would just be so like insanely afraid that I wouldn't be – You're still tied in obviously. Right. I know. That's like a trust thing though. is like, I'm like, are those things really going to hold me? Yeah. Yeah. No, but I guess as climbers, you kind of like get used to that from the beginning with trusting ropes and stuff. But for me, it's funny because if I go back to Yosemite or go back to a big wall and I'm up really high, it does take a while for me to trust everything. Like I have trouble sitting back. I have trouble trusting the rope. Like there's a lot of things where I get really weighed down.

50:39What do they call it? The pins in the rock, you know, that the calipers are on? Like, I don't know any of the terms yeah like the bolts like is that really gonna is that gonna hold yeah and what is that usually what's that like when you're in the in the the the crags or like the um the crevices and you have that like metal thing that you expand the device that expands it's called a cam that's handy it's called a cam so it's spring loaded so you squeeze it and it contracts and you put it in the crack and it expands yeah and so you can literally it will hold your body weight when you're pulling yourself yep and more obviously wow like a lot of impact on falls and stuff You know, they're rated to hold much more, obviously.

51:16Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know. Could I trust that thing? Baby steps, though. Yeah, I guess, right? Like, definitely baby steps. How do you train? Like, what is the training regimen like for this? Do you have a coach? Or how does that work? I didn't have a coach for Golden Gate in a day. I do now, actually, because it's just, like, a lot harder to fit in with a kid. Um, but training for it was really difficult because it's, it required an, it required a really interesting set of fitness. Like I equate it to having to run an ultra marathon, but at the end you have to do your best mile splits because El Cap is, is kind of structured that way.

52:03The bottom, the bottom two thirds is the easiest climbing. And then the top is when the climbing gets steeper and much more difficult. and so you had to know you had to be able to climb 2 ,500 feet of like relatively easy terrain and then be able to execute really difficult moves way up high on the wall so you had to have like strength and endurance and you know I guess as athletes you know that like it's really hard to kind of excel at both like the more endurance you have generally that's when like your power and strength goes down and so you're trying to find that perfect line where it's like you're capable of both.

52:41And for me, it was a lot of like, I trained a lot in the climbing gym. I trained my fingers a lot. And you do that by hanging on a couple edges and with different hand positions for periods of time. So that's something that climbers do that's very common. um but then i i also mimicked the day a lot so one day i went to our local crag and i climbed 34 pitches and i tried to do the hardest ones at the very end so i just like tried to mimic the day um and just a lot of climbing and then going to yosemite a month beforehand and practicing the pitches and i did like sections of the route like at one point my friend jordan and i who was also trying to climb Golden Gate in a day, we did like, we basically did it in two days.

53:31Like we climbed from the bottom up to the middle and then the next day or two days later, we wrapped down to the very middle and climbed out. So you're kind of just like building that fitness over time. And are you doing anything like in the gym or aerobically that isn't as climbing specific? I mean, I've always been a trail runner and I think that like having that like base level fitness helps, especially with like the hiking and stuff that you do in Yosemite. It's just a lot of big days where you don't want to get, you want to be fit enough that like the approaches and the descents don't exhaust you.

54:05So I definitely trail run like kind of probably like two or three times a week. Yeah. And do you taper or periodize that? Like how specific does it get? It gets pretty specific now. I think when I was training for Golden Gate, it was a little bit like, you definitely rest a lot before the attempt like up to four or five days um and yeah trying to taper a little bit not climbing as often but when you're you are climbing having really high quality days um and yeah i try to uh i try to build my strength and power early um early on because that's that type of strength takes longer to acquire and but it also stays with you a little longer.

54:47And then leading up to a trip or project like this, like building on that endurance. Yeah. Well, you were pretty jacked in the movie. Yeah. You were like... Yeah, I worked really, really hard at that season. You were firing on all cylinders, like so strong. It's crazy. I worked really hard. I went sport climbing a bunch that summer. And yeah, like I said, I was like trying to climb really hard sport climbing grades, like 514, which is like an elite level grade. But then, you know, usually if you're just trying to climb those grades, you'd try a hard route and then you'd stop and you'd rest and that's all you'd do.

55:20But for me, I was like trying the hardest route and then I would keep climbing after that, you know, kind of just like burn out the whole, my whole body. So there's a physical aspect of it, but there's also the whole mindset mental side of it. I remember in Free Solo, it's sort of like, you know, Alex decides when he wakes up, like, am I right with myself today for this to be the day? Like having that like internal connection with yourself so that you're, you know, you can show up as your best self. And in the movie, there's one short clip where, you know, you're on the phone with your sports psychologist, right?

55:57So talk a little bit about the mental side of it and how you train and prepare that aspect of your craft. Yeah. So I do work with a mental health coach. and she helps me a lot with the performance side of things, which, you know, I think that mental side of, of athletics is, has been overlooked. I think now it's kind of like definitely being talked about a lot more. It's a muscle that you have to kind of train just as much as your body. And so, you know, we do a lot of like, kind of like validation of how we're feeling or how I'm feeling and leaning into those feelings and allowing them to exist.

56:36And then kind of like, I guess the shift comes in terms of like how we relate to those feelings, how you relate to how you're feeling that day and kind of how you can make small shifts. And a lot of it, a lot of it for Golden Gate came down to like really trusting myself, trusting my process and my path and the way that I was going to do it. Because it did feel like I was needing to do things a little bit differently than people who came, you know, who did it before me. And so I did need mentorship and I needed guidance and I needed help. But at the end of the day, I also, it was very mental and it took a lot of belief in myself and trust in myself and a lot of like my own understanding what my own needs were up there and how I wanted to do it.

57:21Were there certain techniques or practices that were helpful? Yeah. Yeah. The one that comes to mind that I'm really proud of is there's one pitch called the monster off with, and it's not actually like graded that hard, but what it is, is it's a, it's just a 200 foot crack. That's like six inches or so wide. And that type of climbing is really difficult because you can't just like jam your hands in there and climb. They won't, they're too big. So you're essentially jamming half of your body into this crack and ascending. It's what we call like wide climbing or off with climbing. And you really don't see that much of that type of climbing anywhere else, but on big walls in places like Yosemite.

58:04And so I wasn't very good at it. I'd never really done it. It's a very specific skill. And it was kind of like a running joke since 2015 that I was like particularly bad at that style of climbing. And I just, the first time I did it, I wore a giant hole in my elbow and my shoulder and it was just like it kind of like a mess it completely depleted me too and it's right in the middle of the wall so you really can't be tired after that pitch um but what was happening to me is all these like male climbers were telling me like you have to like kind of cam your foot in the crack so you kind of span the span the crack with your foot and you have like your heel in the back part and your toe on the outside and you're kind of like shuffling your foot up like this, but I have a size six woman's foot.

58:53And so my foot like just wouldn't span it. Basically, I was just flailing around, which is why it was like all on my upper body. And I was just getting so exhausted. And so ultimately what I decided was to do was make my foot bigger. So what I did was I put my climbing shoe on and then there's like kind of a hard section of climbing to like get into the crack. So I climbed that section with my climbing shoes, like my climbing shoes. And then I got into the crack. I wedged my body and Alex tied his climbing shoes to the rope and I pulled them across and I put his climbing shoes on over my climbing shoes.

59:31And it made my foot the same size as his. So you could wedge it in there and it would support your weight and you could like, and I can climb up and it was like night and day, the difference. So it was kind of cool. And then also what makes me more proud is a lot of women who have, and some men who have smaller feet who have climbed that route now, use that technique.

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1:02:55You were off the charts competitive when you were a kid. I mean, the movie does a pretty good job of telling that part of your story. I mean, where does that like fire come from? Is that just the family that you were raised in? I mean, you were just getting after it like a maniac. Yeah, I think I was born that way a little bit. Grew up an only child. But I had these two cousins who were around the same age as me who were boys. And just ever since I can remember, it was just like constant battling. at whatever we were doing to be better than the other one. Across like every sport or every daily activity, like competing for, you know, over chores and stuff like that and just trying to get the best of them.

1:03:42Yeah. Like who could, like, I remember once when I was a kid, we were like daring each other to like jump off the second floor balcony onto the couch in the house, you know? And it was like, it was like who could do it first? And so it was just always this kind of like competitive, like who could go further, who could do more, who can take the most risk. Like it was, it was just constant. And you were doing lots of different things. So what was it about climbing that you, that like you locked in on and, and that made you decide like, oh, this is, this is the thing that I'm going to focus on. I remember the first time I climbed and it was at the Boulder Reservoir outside of Boulder, Colorado.

1:04:28And I was with my cousins and we spent a lot of time on that lake water skiing in the summer. And there was this artificial wall that they'd set up for a festival and they were letting the kids climb it. And I remember my cousins really wanted to try it. And I actually vividly remember we just had like our swimsuits and I was super embarrassed to like climb in my swimsuit for some reason. And so I was really resistant to it. but because they did it I was like okay well now I have to do it and I just remember the feeling of climbing and it was like I was as I got higher and higher I felt more and more afraid but I kept pushing kept pushing and then I got to the top and I just I remember this mix of fear and apprehension but I had somehow managed to push through that and it was just this really powerful feeling for me.

1:05:23And as soon as I came down, I looked at my dad and I was like, how do we, like, how do I do this again? Where can we go? Like, I want to do this. So the added element of risk and fear and danger, like kind of elevated the stakes. Like, is that, is that like, because it's obviously like, it's a very different kind of sport, right? In that, like there's so much danger and peril involved. It takes a very specific person to be like, okay, this is my deal. Yeah. I mean, I don't think if, I don't think as like a 10 year old girl, I don't think I felt like I was in any danger. I, I just felt the sensation of being able to overcome certain things and push through it.

1:06:06Yeah. Because the style of climbing that I got into is actually incredibly safe. It's indoor climbing, competition climbing. It's very focused on that. I was also a gymnast at a young age. And so it really translated well, having that body awareness and upper body strength and flexibility. And I think I also knew that I was good at it. I knew that I had talent. So that was very helpful. And then, yeah, the added feeling of fear, but being able to work with that fear and overcome it was really powerful for me. It appears like you ascended the ranks pretty quickly once you focused on it. It's just competition after competition and you start standing on top of podiums all over the place and there's World Cups.

1:06:53There's a whole circuit and world to this kind of competition, right? The climbing competition side of the sport. Yeah, now it's very established and it's an Olympic sport. Back then, it was still pretty, you know, pretty well established. There was national level competitions, World Cup competitions. There was a youth circuit that I joined pretty quickly. And that was my thing for probably the first decade of my climbing. So, the goal at that time was how far can I go with this? Can I take it all the way to the Olympic level? I mean, this was before it was in the Olympics, obviously. Olympics yet, but that was obviously my dream.

1:07:30I wanted to be a world champion and win World Cups. My coach was this woman, Robin Urbisfield-Rabatu, who was a four-time World Cup champion. And she's actually the mother of Brooke Rabatu, who just won a silver medal in the Olympics for climbing and is one of the best rock climbers in the world now. So yeah, that was like my dream was to be like that. And what happened? Basically, I continued to do competitions throughout my teenage years into my early twenties. I got really very, uh, I put a lot of pressure on myself. I started to kind of spiral into like a little bit of darkness, I would say towards climbing and climbing became a little bit of a punishment for me.

1:08:18Um, and I really had wrapped my identity in it and into the success of it and having that like perfectionist attitude mixed with the, the pressure of wanting to win all the time, wanting to succeed. I developed a pretty, you know, a pretty substantial, like poor relationship with food and nutrition. I would say it was an eating disorder. Um, I was, I was very, very thin and I was really, I was really under fueling. And as a result, I was very successful for several years. Um, I started winning competitions. I was the best competition climber in the country for a while. Uh, but it just, you know, as we, as we all know, it just was a very unsustainable way to live.

1:09:06Yeah. And eventually I burned out. Yeah. There's a couple of things going on. There's the self-identifying with your performance, like you're a good person or a bad person, depending upon how well you climb. Exactly. And then the control issues, like if I can just get myself lean enough so that I can, you know, scurry up that, you know, that incline as quickly as possible, then I can achieve these goals and be perfect, right? And setting that standard of perfection, you know, obviously is a form of self-punishment. Yep. That's exactly what it was. Yeah. How did you finally kind of have a reckoning with that?

1:09:48I would say that it's probably still ongoing in some ways. I don't think I've ever like fully, like I wouldn't say that I am fully like 100 % healthy all the time with my attitude, but obviously I've matured. And I think what I realized was if I was going to continue to be a climber, if I wanted to continue climbing, I needed to change some things about the approach. And that took several years. I mean, it was a long, it was a lot of back and forth. It was a lot of like taking a break and going back to climbing. And then, you know, the thing that actually happened was I joined the North Face global athlete team and was able to kind of experience climbing through these other athletes on the team who definitely practiced different avenues of it.

1:10:41but they also had like a different attitude towards climbing. It was, it took a different role in their lives. And that was really eyeopening for me. Well, there's one thing to be an indoor climber. What do you call it? Like when you're doing the indoor walls and like, there's speed climbing, there's different disciplines within that, but everything's being scored and there's a clock and like, you know, it's all heightened and in this contained environment versus, you know, you're in nature and you're out. It's like a different relationship. So So the evolution, like the change is not only your relationship with the sport, but also with yourself, right?

1:11:17How do you find a sustainable way to do this thing that you love that is like nourishing rather than self-punishing? Yeah. And I think that took a period of time. As an athlete in your early 20s, it was a lot of struggle to get to that point. I have to imagine that there's a lot of disordered eating in the climbing world. There's a lot of disordered eating. With men too, I would imagine. Probably more quietly even. Yep. I think it's more quietly done. And it is a strength to weight ratio sport. The less mass you have, the easier it is to pull yourself up the wall. And there's been a lot of attempts in recent years to kind of address that.

1:12:00one thing in particular is the way that the like competition routes are set now they're set that in a way that kind of rewards strength and power and in order to be powerful and have that type of strength you need to have a bit more muscle yeah so that's been kind of an attempt at at acknowledging it but it I think it will always be an issue in some ways there's There's that body aesthetic too, like being super wiry. Yeah. And, you know, I'm much older than you, but I remember in my 20s, like I knew a bunch of climbers. And like a lot of them like started smoking cigarettes so they could lose weight.

1:12:41Like that's a whole thing in that world too, right? Yeah, cigarettes and just kind of trying to get cut weight as quickly as possible. Like, yeah, it's definitely a thing. So you go to college and you graduate college and that's when the North Face relationship begins? Yeah, it begins right when I graduated college. I was 20 when I graduated. Yeah. And at what point are you invited to do this Everest expedition? It was shortly after that? A few years after that. Yeah, I joined the team as like a sport climber. So still outdoor climbing, but really trying to just climb the hardest routes and a competition climber.

1:13:20And I gradually started just practicing other styles of climbing. I started ice climbing a little bit. That's the gnarliest. Yeah. It's not my favorite. That just seems like the most dangerous version of it, version of climbing. I mean, I think it can be like beautiful and fun in a lot of ways. And I think it's a very good skill. For me, I'm like, I'm glad I know how to do it, but it's not something I pursue regularly. Also, it's like, why would you go ice climbing in the winter when you can go skiing? There's a couple clips in the movie of you ice climbing, but my frame of reference for that is the Alpinist documentary because you're like, whoa, you know, that is so intense.

1:14:01And the alpinist is like, obviously, alpinism is like an entirely other avenue of climbing. That's like the more you try to excel in that realm, definitely the more danger you're taking on for sure. So, you're expanding. I mean, you know, Adrian always talks about how you're like the most, you know, diversified, like well-rounded climber in the world. But so, you're expanding like your skill set and your capacity and all these different types of terrain. I was definitely expanding my skill set. And what happened was Conrad Anker actually invited me to go to the Kumbu Climbing School, which is the nonprofit that was founded in memory of Alex Lowe.

1:14:41And it's basically an instruction program for high altitude workers, for Sherpa, to learn the necessary skills to work on mountains like Mount Everest. And Alex Lowe was Conrad's climbing partner who perished on... On Shishapangma. Right, right, right. In Avalanche, yep. Yeah, and then he married Alex's widow. Jenny. Yeah. Yes. Conrad's the best. Yeah, Conrad is wonderful. He's the godfather to everybody in the climbing community, isn't he? He really is. He's just an amazing human being. Yeah, he is wonderful. And he definitely kind of helped expose me to a different world of climbing through his mentorship.

1:15:22I mean, he invited me to go to the KCC. And basically our role in the KCC was to help instruct like Sherpa to learn how to belay. He wanted us to develop a climbing area closer to their town of Forte. So bolting a little crag near their town. So I went in 2011 with Matt Siegel, who's a really close friend of mine, also a rock climber on the team, and Cedar Wright. and we went to Forte and spent three weeks there and bolted roots and just like existed in the Himalaya. And I just thought it was the most amazing experience of my entire life. And so the invitation from Conrad to go on this Everest expedition came out of that.

1:16:08Yeah, basically, I think it came out of that. So you put in a little work because in the movie, it makes it sound like, oh, you'd never done anything and like suddenly you're on Everest. No, no, I was ice climbing and I was, yeah, I was winter, you know, going on some winter camping trips. And I was just like, I just really was craving this different experience entirely. I really wanted to go on an expedition. And that's where the invitation came from, essentially, was through that. He saw that fascination in me. What was the difference between what you imagined Everest would be and the actual experience of it?

1:16:44You know, it's hard to remember. I think I went in like a deer in headlights. Like I just had no idea what it was going to be about. But I think that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted something that was entirely new, a place where I was going to learn a lot. I just wanted to be somewhere different. And I didn't want to have to think about performance and climbing hard and training. I just wanted to go and exist in the mountains. Well, there's certainly no perfection in that environment or context, right? Yeah. Nature writ as large as possible is going to have its say. And so whatever you have in your mind about how you're going to do this perfectly is an impossibility anyway.

1:17:26So it kind of dispenses with all of that. Totally. Yep, exactly. Expeditioning is like this total skill in itself. and people who are good at it are people who are really capable of dealing with that uncertainty and that imperfection and when things go wrong and when you don't feel your best. And I learned that really quickly. I got really sick right at the beginning of the trip. I spent two weeks just like laying in a tent with an upper respiratory infection and it was brutal. Like it was awful. It was probably the sickest I've ever been. What was the most unexpected challenge of it? The length of the trip was, it was the kind of trip where you feel like you're going to be there forever and every day is the same.

1:18:12And it just almost feels like nothing happens. And it was like I couldn't even remember what it felt like to be home. And so I think that the stagnation of that expedition was really challenging mentally. Because, yeah, there's not a lot going on on a two-and-a-half-month trip. You're not doing a whole lot most days. And so you're definitely just left with your thoughts in a lot of ways. Hanging out in a tent. In a yellow tent. At some base camp. Yeah. What is your feeling about the commercialization of Everest? It's a bit of a sticky wicket for you because your husband, he basically goes there every year and takes people up, right?

1:18:59And so there's a lot of ink spilled about how crowded it is and how it's become this thing. There's a lot of lament about it. But you've done it, and your husband is this incredibly skilled guide for so many people. So what is your take on all of that? Yeah. So my take on Mount Everest, I mean, it's a little bit parroting what I hear from Adrian because I'm just so in it constantly. Like I thought I was going to go to Mount Everest and have completed that goal and then never have to think about it again. But every year. Now it's every year. He's packing his stuff. Totally. If there's one big takeaway from the movie or like all climbing movies for that matter, it's that climbers spend most of their time like, you know, folding their ropes and packing their gear.

1:19:48The amount of gear and like knowing where everything is. And it's just like that is insane. It is an insane amount of logistics. but yeah I think I have a lot of gratitude for my experience on Mount Everest it changed my life it truly changed my life and I think it does that for a lot of people and therefore I do think that it is a valuable experience and obviously my husband owns a guide company that guides on Mount Everest I am biased I think people have really powerful incredible experiences on that mountain. I think mountain guiding is an amazing way for people to like experience suffering, learn about themselves.

1:20:29I think there's immense value in that. Obviously, there's issues with Mount Everest, endless issues that I hear about constantly. And I don't need to go into it because I'm not like a mountain guide. I'm not the expert. But obviously, there's issues and there's improvements. You know, for Adrian, it's totally his passion. He's chosen this as his cause. He wants to make it a better place. He wants to make it better for everyone. And I think that that's amazing. And I do have a lot of, I do have a lot of gratitude towards, towards that place. Uh, I will say it's a very love hate relationship for me because like the Everest show, when it's, when you're prepared, when Adrian's preparing for an expedition on Everest, that is like all anybody wants to talk about.

1:21:12It's all anybody wants to do. And for me that, that gets tiresome. You're like, okay, here we go again. I have actually nicknamed - We're going to do this again next year. I've nicknamed Mount Everest Steve because it's just like this presence in my life that we always joke about Steve. It's just always there. Everyone's always wanting to talk about it. And sometimes you just want Steve to shut up. And every year, you know, he packs up and it's like he's gone for four months, right? Yeah, no, he's better now because he does the hypoxic training. Oh, that's right. He sleeps at the altitude 10. Accelerated experiences.

1:21:48So it's accelerated. So it's around 35 days. It's not so bad. But the lead up is, it's a lot of prep. But the risk never, you know, goes down on that. So every year it's like, okay, you know, we're entering into this bargain where, you know, there's a chance that, you know, you might not come back. I mean, this is the world of climbing though, you know, every one of these expeditions and being married and having a child. that, you know, I want to talk about that as well. Like the stakes are higher, obviously. The stakes are higher. Yeah. And I think that we've definitely, both of us have kind of like toned it back significantly since we've had a child.

1:22:24There's a lot less that we're willing to do. There's a lot of experiences that just don't have the same value that they used to. And so I would say we're definitely kind of on the same page with, in terms of the level of risk that we take when it comes to our professions now. If you look at LCAP and compare and contrast it with Everest, what is the delta on the skill sets? What do you need to excel on LCAP? And what's different about having a successful you know summit of Everest in terms of like um just like general fitness or approach or technique or mindset yeah I mean I think like it depends on what kind of goal you're talking about you're talking about free climbing El Cap in a day versus climbing Mount Everest with oxygen I mean there's a million permutations so pick one I guess I'm just taking like from a lay person's perspective like how do you differentiate these two things because they're both climbing but But they're very different things.

1:23:27Everest is very much like how much can you suffer for a long period of time? Like how painful can it get and you continue to keep going? Like it is very much that. And also like sleep deprivation and like low oxygen environments. Unable to eat properly. Like really truly we're not supposed to exist in this environment. how how much can you can you endure essentially you know and then climbing on el cap free climbing we'll use that for example it just it requires a lot of technical skill and experience like you can't just a lot of people can train for everest and be really physically fit for through other sports cycling or running or whatever that may be and train specifically for everest for maybe a year or something like that and then go and successfully climb it with oxygen.

1:24:24You're not going up El Cap that way though. But you're not going to free climb El Cap coming from like a different background. Like you have to be a rock climber. So that's a little bit different, I would say. You know, if you're talking about climbing Everest without oxygen, as Adrian has done, and something I have not attempted, I think that that requires a level of experience in the mountains that not a lot of people have. So it's probably a little bit more easily compared. and the depth of suffering I think is incredibly intense. I will say that I think like, I think that there's like a genetic component to people excelling at high altitude without oxygen.

1:25:02Like I think some people are very just like - Oh, 100%. Yeah, some people are just, are able to manage that better than others. Adrian, for example, it's like crazy how good he can be. Are there, does he do like physiological tests? Like, does it relate to like VO2 max or, you know, heart rate variability or any of those kinds of things? I really don't. And he will tell you that he like, he gets so stressed before expeditions and he thinks he's going to like get crushed by his client and everyone's going to be better than him. And I'm just like, dude, you're going to be, you're totally sandbagging everyone.

1:25:34You're going to be fine. Like you, you of all people could literally sit on a couch for six months and go climb Everest and be fine. I see that he feels that way, though, after having, you know, with so much experience. But you're no stranger to this. I mean, you've talked about imposter syndrome. Totally. Absolutely. I think everyone, to some extent, feels that way. I feel that way right now about my movie, and I totally get it. Really? Yeah. Like, what is your fear? My fear is that, like, core, like, really core climbers aren't going to think it's, like, cool enough or not good enough or, like, I'm not really that good of a rock climber.

1:26:12And therefore, like, why am I the one who's, you know, blasted it on an IMAX screen? Well, because you're the only one who did this thing and you had to do it for time. Like, it's a very human, relatable story on one level, but it's also a story that's very inside baseball. Like, there's a specific way of doing these things. And within the world of climbing, like any subculture, there's all this etiquette and certain ways that you're supposed to do it, you know, in order to be considered legit. and all of that, you know, that plays into it. I know like in running, there's a, like an online forum called Let's Run.

1:26:50And in triathlon, there's one called Slow Twitch. And that's where, you know, all the haters go and like, you know, bag on people. Like, I'm sure there's something similar in climbing, right? Where everyone talks shit about it. It's like, you know, like as soon as you, it's like a tall poppy thing, right? As soon as you achieve something great, like everyone wants to tell you why you're not so great or why it wasn't what people think it is. Exactly. And I think in order to protect yourself, you kind of tell yourself those things ahead of time so that you're like prepared for when the haters come.

1:27:21And I guess that's what I do a little bit, but also I try to like, I try to like not go into those places. Well, it's a tricky equation. Like you're trying to thread the needle with this movie because you want it to appeal to a mass wide audience that isn't that familiar with climbing and tell a very human story. But it also, you also want to make sure that the climbing community, you know, is satisfied and that, you know, that the sport is being, um, managed deftly, you know, and, and, and so they feel like they're represented in that story accurately. Exactly. Yeah. And that's, that's hard to, that's hard to do.

1:27:55It is hard to do. And I, I do, you know, when I'm thinking like rationally and, um, yeah, I think it's done well. I do think that it's – It's done very well. It's good. Yeah, thank you. It's a good climbing film. Let me disabuse you of your imposter syndrome. Like I said, I'm a layperson who knows some climbers but knows nothing about climbing, and I was enthralled by the whole experience of watching it. Awesome. Yeah. But I think what I appreciated about it most was just the vulnerability that you demonstrated. And you really get how much you cared about this, how hard it was, what you were risking to achieve this goal and the difficulty of it.

1:28:42But like, I think that we're a little bit warped because of free solo. And it's like, well, if you're not like, you know, doing it like that, then like, who cares? You know? Yeah. But in watching your thing, it's like, oh, like, well, wait a minute. Alex did this thing. And like, you're just trying to do this thing with ropes in a day. Like, how hard can that be? Like, not understanding like the context and the difficulty of it. And also not appreciating. Like, I think there's this sense also like, oh, there's this rock face. and yeah there's a couple different ways to get up there but like you guys all know like every crag and minutiae of this entire ascent and there's a name for like every move that you have to make in every specific place and you're rappelling down from the summit just to practice those specific moves on that specific you know little piece of rock so that when you get there on the day you're going to be able to master it like there's a level of like focus and intentionality and granularity to the whole thing that I don't know that I fully understood either.

1:29:46Yes. On a granular level, you have to get really detailed with it. And that's really hard to do on a 3 ,200 foot piece of rock. Yeah. Yeah. It's also a COVID movie. Yeah. I know. You know, it's like, here's what we did during COVID, you know? Like, I don't know what you were doing, like watching Netflix, but like, here's what we did, you know? You're like, okay, now I talk about imposters. And it was like, oh, now I feel bad about how I wasted all my time. No, I mean, I was just so grateful that I had the project while COVID was happening. Like it was, I was just like right in the thick of it when COVID was happening.

1:30:24So it was just this very nice, like, oh, well, this is what I'm going to focus on. Yeah. You know? There's also, it has the device that every, you know, kind of thriller movie has, which is a ticking clock. So So the backdrop to this is like you do want to have a family and you do want to have a kid, but you've got unfinished business. And like this is something you feel very strongly you want to achieve before you enter into a new phase of life. And if you're not going to achieve it, like what does that mean? What happens? Like you delay starting your family and hang on to this goal or do you give it up?

1:30:58Yeah. And I think it's a really intense struggle that a lot of women go through. And so I think that's why it's also like very relatable for a lot of women is that when you reach a certain age, you start to ask those questions and you start to hear things and it just becomes so anxiety inducing. And for me, that was like just this constant. It was just, yeah, it was like there was a ticking clock above my head. So, inner stage left, Hilary Nelson. Like, you talked about Conrad Anker being a mentor, but, you know, she's the real, you know, kind of mentor throughout this whole story who is kind of your confidant throughout the entire process as a mother and obviously as this, like, incredible icon.

1:31:46So, share a little bit about your relationship with her. Yeah, I met Hillary on Everest. So she was also invited on that expedition. And I didn't know her at the time. I didn't really know much about her because I was just a rock climber. And it was interesting because at the beginning, she kind of – she just didn't really want to take responsibility for me. She didn't want to have to like mentor me. She was there to like do her own thing and excel in her world. And like she didn't want to babysit some little girl who'd never been to altitude before. I kind of like that about her. She's like, I don't want to deal with this person.

1:32:23I'm here for me. Totally. And she owns it. And she's just like, I'm here to do my thing. And I'm here to climb Everest and let's say, and I like, this is what I'm here to do. I'm not here to babysit. So she was harsh a little bit at first. but I think we connected in a lot of ways because I think I in some ways I think I surprised her on that trip with my resilience and my kind of like ability to suffer and I think without Hillary I might not have continued on that path of of diversifying my climbing of of be of going on big expeditions because she was the one who after that trip just kept inviting me on other other trips, other expeditions, and kind of ushered me into this world of a little bit of alpinism, a little bit of ski mountaineering, adventure expedition type of world.

1:33:21And those were some of the most formative years of my life, I think, in terms of how I developed as an athlete and a woman. And she was that big sister figure for me, that person who I kind of looked to. At the Beginning of my career, when I was a 20-year-old competition climber, I was like, oh, I'm going to do competitions, become world champion, rock climb really hard. Then I'm going to probably have kids and then it'll be over because that's just the path. That's just how it is. And she defied that path and she showed what was possible for me as a woman. What about her made her so iconic and amazing?

1:34:03I mean, she was kind of like a Wonder Woman. She looked the part for one thing. And then also she was someone who just did not give up ever. Like if she wanted to do something, that's what she was going to do. And she was going to work every angle in order to make it happen. And she was going to push and push and push until she got it done. And if that meant going back to Pakistan or India to go ski an unskied peak, it didn't matter. She was going to go back and she was going to do it. And she was going to do it all while having a family and balancing being a mom and a professional athlete. And she just did it not always gracefully, of course, but she did it.

1:34:51And that's what made her so special. Yeah. Share for people who don't know what happened. with her. Yeah. So Hillary was, um, skiing or she was on an expedition with her partner, Jim Morrison, also a North face athlete, also like incredibly prolific ski mountaineer. And they were climbing Manaslu, which is the eighth tallest peak in the world, uh, in Nepal. And they had summited the mountain and they were skiing off the summit. And she, She, from my understanding, she triggered like a tiny little avalanche, but it was like, wouldn't have been anything except that it was over massive exposure. And she essentially got pushed off the side of the mountain and died.

1:35:40I mean, that was, you know, that was like an earthquake in the climbing community, obviously. but it's such a strange, interesting, and surreal thing because everybody in your community understands that, you know, this is always kind of a risk. This is, you're putting your life on the line every time you do this and yet when it happens and, you know, when it happens to somebody like her, it's still, you know, shocking. Yeah, it's, I think about that a lot because it's like the closer you are to the event happening, the more like afraid and sad and tragic it seems. And then you kind of like go back to base level of like continuing to live your life and then it happens again and it just keeps happening.

1:36:32And it's almost like, yeah, it's almost like as humans, we should be able to grasp it more. But I still find myself being unable to grasp it when things like that happen. And the Hillary one was particularly hard for me because I was actually very pregnant at the time when it happened. And so it just hit me in this way that was – it still sticks with me, I think. It's one of the only ones in my life where it's still like a little jarring every time I think about it. And yeah, it's been really – it's kind of changed a lot about what I think about as a mom and the risks I take. In what way? I mean I don't know if it's because of Hillary or if it's just because of like going through having a child.

1:37:22But I'm like very – I'm much more risk averse than I was before in a lot of ways. Like there's a lot of times and I think it's a – I think it does hinder me. There's a lot of times where I think about the worst case scenario and what could happen, and it prevents me from doing things. But at the same time, there is a decent level of comfort with that place that I'm in now. Like, it's almost like I just don't need to do those things. Yeah, you proved yourself. There's nothing for you to prove. Like, if you had not achieved that goal on El Cap, though, maybe you might be taking some different risks right now.

1:37:59But because you did, you can be like, it's cool. Yeah, it's really interesting. Like I thought that I wouldn't be that way though. Like I don't think, I think Hillary continued to push and continued to go on big expeditions and do really rad things. granted her her like discipline was quite a bit different than mine ski mountaineering was is a different like style of of mountain experience that does carry a lot of inherent risk and I think in rock climbing I can kind of pivot to to ways that feel like quite a bit safer but still challenging and still rewarding and I think that I'm really lucky for that but for me I just am like it's like I have no it's like maybe I could do that I could go to these places I could it's possible for me to do these things, but I just don't have, I don't see the value in them as much.

1:38:52I'm not going to get out of them as much. Yeah, the risk analysis, like the cost benefit of it. It's like, okay, if I do it and I, okay, I will feel this way or whatever, but like, what am I wagering for that experience? But I think I'm lucky because I have these other ways of expressing myself in climbing that are still super challenging and hard for me, but it just feels... But not as perilous. It's not as perilous. It feels way more within my comfort zone, and I'm just really grateful for that. I only met Hillary once. I spent the better part of a day with her because she came and did the show when I was still doing it in my house.

1:39:32And then she had a speaking engagement, and I drove her and dropped her off like you know for that and and so I got to you know it's not like she was my buddy or I knew you know like I only had that one experience with her I mean but it was a it was very meaningful experience to me and and I used to do the podcast in in this room in my house as I said and now that room is is our tv room so last night I'm watching the documentary and I see her on screen and I was like oh she was sitting right here and she's here and it's like And I got like really emotional about it. There's something just so special about her.

1:40:06Yeah. I think that's true. I think that's very true. I think she was a special one. And I think she changed the world in a lot of ways, our world for women. I think she was one of the first women who kind of continued her career after having children. And yeah, I think that that was important. I think she made it easier for a lot of us. Is it your hope that the film and kind of what you accomplished and what you achieved updates that narrative around women on the wall? Yeah. I mean, I hope that this story is the first of many female stories in climbing that are highlighted because climbing is this really unique sport where in terms of like the upper, upper levels, men and women are quite a bit closer in terms of what they're capable of.

1:41:03Because climbing does reward flexibility and body awareness and a lot of these things that women tend to be a little bit better at. And so the level is – the gap is closing. And then you also see like these achievements like Lynn Hill's achievement that are just so incredibly groundbreaking that are done by women. And so I just think it's – I think they're valuable stories to be told because it really is a unique sport in that we are much, much closer to men in terms of what we're capable of. It's such an incredible vehicle for self-actualization also, just climbing itself. Like the kind of battle between ego and humility and, you know, really having to position yourself and put, you know, put yourself in these uncomfortable situations, deeply uncomfortable, you know, situations where, you know, not only is the fear, you know, profound, but, you know, so are the risks, the peril, right?

1:42:02And can you be your best self or can you use this as a means of self-discovery, really? Yeah, totally. I mean, that's been my medium for self-discovery, I think, since I was a young girl. And it's totally evolved as I've grown and matured and as my climbing and my relationship to it has grown and matured. And yeah, for me, I find a lot of value in my exploration of climbing in that process, in particular, the process of like dealing with failure. Like rock climbers, we basically just fail 99 % of the time. And I think a lot of life is kind of recognizing or reckoning with failure and understanding it and really welcoming it in a lot of ways.

1:42:50I mean, I'm basically in an eternal process of failure because I just have projects all over the world that I'm trying to complete and I won't complete all of them. And so it's just like you're constantly failing and learning from it. And I think that understanding that is really beautiful in some ways and it teaches us a lot about ourselves. And then I also think climbing, and this is highlighted in the film, I think, really well and is kind of like not as highlighted in films like Free Solo. There's a lot of like partnership and there's a lot of team aspects to climbing that I think has been overseen until now.

1:43:28There are these deep connections that you build with those people who you're up there with, who you go through really intense experiences with. And for me, that's been super important in my life. there's a team behind every great accomplishment, but like free solo is called free solo. It's like, yeah. And there's a massive team behind that. I mean, the movie really is like, it has a lot to say about like mentorship and teamwork. Like it's very clear, like all of the things that you're doing are a consequence of all the support that you surround yourself with. So how do you, like for someone who's watching this or listening to it, How do you seek out mentors?

1:44:10How do you surround yourself with that kind of support? I've been pretty lucky. I think kind of growing up in the world that I got to grow up in, growing up in Boulder and having a lot of like rock climbing mentors and coaches and getting to know Lynn Hill. But I think one of the things that I've done later in life that's been or later in my climbing career that's been really pivotal for me is like, I do try to surround myself with people who are quite a bit better than me and more experienced than I am in a lot of things. Like I, my career has been kind of defined by becoming good at a certain style of climbing, deciding I want to switch styles and, and try something different, becoming a beginner again, kind of sucking at it, finding people who are better than me, who are willing to kind of take me under their wing and teach me and then building myself back up, which has been, you know, over and over again, pretty humble, humbling experience.

1:45:07And yeah, just so it is hard. I think finding the right partners is one of the challenges of things, the things that we do on expeditions, on big walls. It is hard to find the right combination of person. But I think, yeah, putting yourself out there, being really open to those experiences. Also reciprocating, being a good partner to them. I supported Alex on one of his training routes to go free solo, free rider, stuff like that. Trying to like, yeah, really leaning into being a good partner. What do these expeditions continue to teach you? What are the lessons that you're learning now that you weren't learning earlier?

1:45:48How has it evolved from that perspective? I mean, I think I keep relearning the same. the same things over and over again. We as humans need to be, you know, told these things many times, right? You kind of have to get it beat into you and then you forget. Yeah, you have to crack your head on the side of the... Yeah, like I have, although I do think that I've really learned a lot about approaching a goal with a good, healthy mindset. You know, the difference between the way that I approach things when I was 18 years old versus how I approach it now is massive. It's just much healthier. It's much more like there's a lot more like empathy for myself and for my own process.

1:46:28And there's a lot more. The goal is different. It's not about like completing. It is about completing the goal. But it's also about like embracing that process and enjoying the process along the way. And kind of, I guess, understanding that it's never going to be perfect. And that I'm never going to have a perfectly sunny attitude the entire time. negativity is going to come up self-doubt is going to come up but it's how i relate to those things that matters not necessarily the fact that they that they never happen because i'm human and of course they're going to happen like fear failure all of those things are going to constantly be coming up but it's how i relate to them and move through them that matters in the end what is your perspective on vulnerability because like in the movie you're you are like you're you're demonstrating so much vulnerability and you know there's that kind of traditional idea or trope like oh don't show, you know, don't show anyone what you're, you know, feeling.

1:47:23You've got to like, you know, focus and like on and just keep it together. Right. And, and you're kind of like showing people that there's a different way. Yeah. I, I mean, I just think that hiding that stuff and kind of trying to conceal it is so, takes so much energy away from what you're actually trying to do. And I've never been a person who's been able to kind of like bottle things up, I suppose. So I've always just expressed myself in that way. I've always been pretty sensitive. I've always been pretty emotional and I've been able to like, yeah, I've just let out my vulnerabilities when it comes up.

1:48:04And I think I used to be a bit ashamed of it. I used to see it as a bit of a weakness. And now I see that I'm not alone. There's a lot of people like me and there's a lot of people who maybe feel ashamed like I used to and I think that it is a strength to be able to to show it and show it in a space like on a movie and show people that it's it's actually a pretty healthy thing to care about something and then to feel a certain way about it and move through it you remember that old you're probably too young but there was this movie what was it called it was a movie about baseball with Tom Hanks and I think Madonna was in it and he was coaching like a women's baseball team.

1:48:44And there's one scene where he's like, there's no crying in baseball. I do. It was like, here you are crying on El Capitan and, and you still like did this thing, you know what I mean? It's like, maybe there should be crying in baseball. I mean, there should be crying in baseball. There should be crying in everyday life. To not associate it with weakness. It's just like a, a cathartic moment of like processing, you know, the, the, you know, the weight of an experience while you're in the midst of it, I guess. Exactly. Like, and I think it makes, I think it can make in general, like men feel really uncomfortable to see, you know, a woman crying and it used to make Adrian feel very uncomfortable and he used to try to fix it and he used to try to solve everything.

1:49:30And now he just like steps back and he's like, okay, I'm just going to like let you go through your process. But he used to be like, I can't believe you were just like crying while you were climbing. like while you were actually like executing movements. I'm envisioning Alex just watching it like confused. Yes, he was. I mean, I think he used to be. He's like, what is going? I don't understand what's happening. He has his lovely wife, Sonny, who I think has helped him learn a lot about that type of emotion. And at one point I remember being on the wall and like I was in tears crying and he looked at me and he was like, I think you need a hug right now.

1:50:05And he just like gave me a hug. And I was like, that was the right. That's a demonstration of emotional intelligence. Yes. Like, very good. Yes. Awesome. Yeah. How does the whole, like, business of this work? I mean, Adrian has the, you know, the Alpenglow Expedition Company. And so, I can kind of understand how that operates. But as a professional climber, like, obviously, you're a North Face athlete. There's brands and sponsorships involved. But are you comfortable talking about how do you make all of these pieces fit so that you can continue to do this and be a mom and pay the bills and everything?

1:50:46Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just like you said. I am my own brand, essentially, and I'm managing my own brand with sponsors and producing content, being on podcasts, speaking engagements. There's a lot of different avenues that I make my income from. And like, yeah, one of them is sponsors, but the sponsors are contingent on like the content I produce and the trips I go on for them. I go on North Face Expeditions still where we do photo shoots and other marketing things like that. And then, you know, personally, like we have our own YouTube channel where we push things out from the social media side, all of that.

1:51:29It's definitely a hustle. Yeah. So not only do you have to be great, like a master of your craft, you also have to be a master storyteller and always be thinking about like, how are we presenting our life in a certain way? Like that's a whole, that's like a whole second career. Yeah, I think it is a whole second career. And it's something that you don't think about, you know, as a 16 year old, like, oh, I want to be a professional rock climber. I want to be a professional, whatever type of athlete. But then, you know, if you're actually successful at it, you really do have to acquire those skills.

1:52:03Yeah, you have to be a production company and a publicity firm and like all of these things that have nothing to do with being a professional athlete. And hopefully you get to a certain level where you have people helping you with that. Yeah. And so there's projects like this documentary where there's, you know, there's other people involved and producers and directors and all kinds of stuff. By the way, I always forget like when I'm watching these climbing movies that, oh, there's a guy like right next to you with a camera who's also there. Yes. Who also needed to be able to get up there and is holding camera equipment.

1:52:34I know. It's insane. The scenes where it starts hailing and it's raining and it's wet up there. I'm like, oh my God, like, how are you doing this? Yeah. The hail scene. That was actually all of that footage is mainly just my iPhone. Really? Yeah. because we were bailing at that point and all the like professional photographers had their cameras like hidden away how did that look on on an imax it was all right it's crazy you can like shoot it on iphone it's on an imax screen yeah no it was all right that was a crazy storm it was like a very memorable like kind of funny event that happened like we just totally did not expect the weather to turn like that so you basically have to have all of these threads that you're pulling Yeah, big documentaries, but also, you know, capturing everything about all of these adventures that you're going on and getting them edited and presented and all of it's like it's that's a lot.

1:53:28You know, that's a lot of mind share when the focus is like, how do I get up this mountain or whatever and do it safely? Yeah, it's a lot of juggling. And especially now with a kid, it's just this other layer added on. And I feel like we do have a lot of help. Like we actually, I always say it, like we employ a lot of our friends. Like I have a lot of friends who are photographers and a lot of friends who are editors. And I like you spend a lot of time with these people. You go on these trips with these people. And so it's like really nice when you have these people that you like and you like to hang out with who are with you.

1:54:05But it's a lot of dynamics. It's a lot of juggling. And yeah, it's fun. How do you make decisions about what the next goal is, what the next expedition is? What are you working towards right now? Yeah, it's basically about what's – for me right now, it's about what's possible time-wise, like how much energy I can put into a certain project. For instance, we decided not to go to Yosemite this fall because it's quite a bit easier to go sport climbing, which is just like single pitch. You're coming down to the ground every time. It's less time commitment. it's easier to train for in a lot of ways because you can just train in the gym a lot and then go outside and have these little projects.

1:54:49And I've found a lot of like fulfillment in that right now. I'm climbing really well in that style and doing these like quicker, like three to four week trips with the whole family, finding a project, kind of working on the project and hopefully like seeing it through and finishing it by the end of the trip. And that's been really amazing and successful this year for me. So that's what we're doing right now. Also because of the film stuff, it's just kind of hard when you have to travel for the film as well. It's a little easier to have projects that are a little bit more digestible. What's the big thing lingering out there that's calling you?

1:55:32Like, is there a big goal out there one day or some unconquered whatever? there's a lot of goals out there i i think for me i'd love to go back to el cap um and i'd love to free climb it again a different route probably a harder route probably over multiple days um all roads always end up back on yeah i know it's really hard to not be drawn all the places in the world yeah and there's other places i want to go to and climb big walls like for example pakistan I'd love to go to Pakistan and climb on Nameless Tower. But I'm still kind of like, it's a lot of risk. Maybe a level of risk I'm not super comfortable with, just with rock fall and things like that.

1:56:14And then just being away for that long period of time. I just don't really, I don't know, I'm not, I don't want to miss things. When your kid is little, I mean, I guess maybe forever. They just like change so quickly and I'm not. It's crazy. I don't want to leave for two months. I don't want to miss that period of his life. So I'd rather take him with me. And it's a lot easier to have your kid in Yosemite than Pakistan. Yeah, I think so. And it's fun now because in Yosemite, like, we actually last fall, it was really fun. I was there with the Honolds and I was there with the Caldwells and I was there with some other friends.

1:56:55Are you guys just all pulling up in your respective vans? All our vans built and designed by the same person who like has this niche of designing like family climber vans. You're like looking and checking out everybody's vans and comparing like, oh, you did that and we have this. We all roll up into like Church Bowl, which is the zone in Yosemite and all our kids pile out. And like all the younger like Crusher dirtbag climbers are just like, what is going on? It's so funny. Van life. It's awesome. Yeah, we do van life with the kiddo. And yeah, it's great because everybody kind of had kids at the same time.

1:57:30So we're all kind of commiserating together. What is the investment in all of these young children all becoming climbers or not? I don't know. I mean, I think you probably know. I just want him to like what he does. I want him to find something. I want him to have a passion of some sort. I would love for it to be climbing. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't. Um, but it just has to be something. That's my goal is to have a child who's passionate about something. Time will tell. Yeah. Time will tell. Yeah. So right now we're exposing him to a lot. He goes, he understands climbing, um, also skiing.

1:58:11Yeah. He's growing up in Tahoe. So. Right. I mean, you know, there's gonna, there's a, there's a little bit of outdoors to explore there. Yeah. Do you think about your role as a role model for young female climbers or outdoor athletes? Yeah, I think I'm really coming into that role probably right now in a lot of ways. Yeah, this is the moment for it. Yeah, this is the moment. And I really do hope to play a small part in that evolution of female climbing and be like a really healthy, positive voice. you know I feel like I've had I've been really fortunate to have a lot of great mentors and I just hope to continue that I've been working with a non-profit called Z Girls which is actually about like building confidence in young girls like ages 8 or ages 11 to 14 and it's an online platform it's kind of like the mental health coaching you wish you had when you were that age because it's a really like vulnerable hard time learning it early Learning it early, I think, is really important.

1:59:18But yeah, I definitely feel like I'm coming into that place. The North Face team does a really good job of kind of fostering that in a lot of ways. I feel like I'm now coming into that role for the other younger athletes on the team. so I feel like like if I think of you and then I pair you with like Kate Courtney and Chelsea Sedaro and these other like you know women athletes who are like you know sending it in different ways there's something really powerful about all of you in your various different disciplines being these you know examples of of you know true empowerment um I don't know. I don't know if there's something there.

2:00:00I mean, these are all like people under the, you know, the RXR umbrella. And maybe there's, you know, there's a good reason for that. But I feel like it's an interesting moment and time right now where you and others like you are more fully expressed than they ever have been. And because of social media and all of that, like there is a direct communication to the next generation of young athletes that are being influenced by you. And I'm glad that you're like, oh, I'm really thinking a lot about this because I think shouldering that mantle and taking it seriously can be just so impactful in the most positive way.

2:00:40Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I do think it's important. I think it is thanks to social media and kind of the place that we're at in our lives, like the kind of life transitions that we're going through. I think, yeah, there's a more fuller vision of who we are being portrayed. And I think that in a lot of ways, women didn't have that before. Um, you know, women excelled at athletics when they were in their twenties and then they had kids and then they were parents and that's it. So if you were to like, look into that like camera right now and like address the young girl athlete, uh, you know, what is the, what is the message that you want to convey?

2:01:19Like, what is it that you want them to understand about themselves and their potential and how they think about, you know, their own future as athletes, but also just as human beings? Yeah. I mean, I think I would, I would try to convey to not be afraid of fear, to not be afraid to try hard and care about things and be vulnerable and be open and kind of just go for it in your own way. Don't be afraid to do things in your own way, to fail in your own way. It's really not all about success. In a lot of ways, that is what it's about in some respects, but it's also the majority of life is about how we deal with failure and how we deal with discomfort and struggle.

2:02:10And I think, you know, as a woman, we do have different ways that we approach things and different things, different, we go through different things. And I think that's just now a story that's being told and it's an important one. And so I think we should never be ashamed to be a part of that. I read, and I'm paraphrasing your words, but a few things that you said that I think are really profound and impactful. Fear is human, but a strength when given purpose. So seek out fear, discomfort, and failure because success is built upon hundreds of thousands of failures. Find what makes you uncomfortable, scares you, or causes you to fail, and then use these experiences for learning and growth.

2:03:02Yeah. That like says it all to me. It does. Is there anything that remains to be said about that? No. I mean, I just love the idea of leaning into fear and discomfort and expressing ourselves through those and kind of like finding meaning through them. I had a woman on here, psychologist called Susan David, and her mantra is discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. Yeah, that's well said. I think that you pay the price of discomfort more than most. And you're like the, you're our Sherpa who can report back what you discover from the outer edges of the most uncomfortable places on earth.

2:03:42Well, I appreciate that. The movie is fantastic. It's going into theater September 9th? 3rd. September 3rd. it'll have a couple weeks there after that it's going to be available for streaming on Jolt so I think it's jolt.film is where you'll be able to see it so everybody check it out and I'm excited to see what you do next thank you so much thanks for coming here today it was inspiring awesome appreciate it you feel okay? did we do it? anything remains to be said? No, I think we nailed it. We did. We did it. You're good at this. All right. Well, come back after you go do some crazy thing and we'll talk some more.

2:04:28Perfect. All right. Cheers.

2:04:34That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful.

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2:06:19Thank you.