If I Can, I Will: William Goodge On Running 50 Marathons In 50 States In 24 Days

28:20Yeah. It's becoming more, it's being viewed by everyone now. And it's good to have these different characters in elevating the sport. Yeah. I mentioned this before, so I won't belabor it on the podcast for people who have heard it, but I was at TrailCon recently and there's like a week of panels and events leading up to Western states up in Tahoe. and a big kind of recurring topic of conversation is like what is the culture of trail running now because you have the ogs who are used to it being a certain way a very kind of grounded granola low key you know no no flash kind of experience um and their attachment to that uh as you know this sport has emerged and like a trail con there's just like it's a it's a commercial operation like every brand is there with booze and all kinds of stuff going on.

29:19And it's just changed a lot, but it's the people that define the culture, right? You can't dictate what the culture is and you have to allow it to be what it wants to be based upon the people who are like inhabiting it, right? And it's a different sort of archetype of individual now that is either ultra curious or kicking ass at the highest level in this sport. And it's not one thing. You've got the backyard ultras. We have what the kind of things that you do. You've got the, you know, helicidibes and you've got like the, you know, the, the, the, the kind of gold standard races like Badwater and Moab and et cetera.

29:58Like there's such a diversity of like experiences and offerings. Yeah. It keeps it interesting that way as well. And that's why you can have different athletes from different backgrounds being good at different things. I like the balance. I like that the old stead are still there that want it that way. And I think as an athlete or speaking to ultra running truly, you shouldn't always be doing something and it being filmed and doing all this other stuff. Like the experience is the most beautiful thing. Obviously a lot of the things I do are filmed, but the moments where I get most back from it are when I'm in the middle of nowhere on my own, seven miles away from my crew and I see something magical or have a memory of my mom from the past.

30:38So you still go through those experiences. And yes, if you're raising money or now it becomes a profession for people and money, you have to obviously offer viewership to people if they want it. But I think that always needs to be a bit of both. But if you're not connected to that kind of spiritual experience of doing this, you're not going to last. If you're doing it to have somebody follow you around with a camera, like you're not going to make it. It's too hard. It is too hard. You need a reason beyond yourself to really be doing it. I think if it was completely like ego driven, unless you are one of the sickest athletes out there and like, I'm going to be the best.

31:15But as our conversations have been led and having read your book and Dean's book, it was so interesting to me at this beginning, which is why I attached myself to it so extremely, how a lot of people that get into ultra have been through some kind of trauma in their life. And it's a vehicle for dealing with it because obviously that trauma never truly goes away, but you can kind of ride the world a little easier. So yeah, it is an interesting sport that's continuously to change. And I also think that all these records that are being sent now, like the younger generation are getting into it now.

31:48So give it 10, 15 years, whatever any of us have done is going to be like smoked out of the water. I think we're just at the beginning. It's super interesting. But when you look at max jolis splits at bad water i can't even get my head around it like he's literally running like 7 30 8 minute miles for like most of that race and he never walked once yeah he's a great he's a great guy he's a friend of mine as well and i've spoke to him since he's the coolest he and he's cool he's cool as fuck he might be the only guy who can out mog you yeah no i agree with that tattoos are crazy yeah surf a skater looks like chris cornell yeah i mean you know he's you know strikingly handsome and uh and the way that he creates these documentary pieces are like they're really beautiful like they're you know they're executed at such a high production level and and keen sense of storytelling yeah and he has a lot to do with that as well in our conversations he's he comes from a design background like he cares about the aesthetics of what he's doing yeah he's a yeah he's a gangster and he's proven it 100 he's proven it and i like we had a conversation the day and he was obviously congratulating him on bad water and he's like, yeah, it's great to shut all those people up online because obviously he wins Moab, king of Moab, and then goes through some races where he DNFs and everyone gets on your back because of social media now, you're not the guy you were, this was a one off and then goes and absolutely smokes bad water.

33:13Yeah, like uncorks the performance of a lifetime. Incredible. But also it shows that there's so many variables in ultra, when you run in over a hundred miles or even a hundred miles, there's so many things that can go wrong at all points, It's your altitude, it's hot. You have 20 mile, 25 mile stints where you don't see anyone. So to be perfect and to win every single time is really not feasible in this sport. And it shows that he went and put the work in. He did a lot of the heat training stuff, which I've been speaking with him about. And yeah, the flowers. Did you meet him when you did Moab?

33:46I met him just before that. But yeah, the same year, because that was, what was it? Two years ago now, maybe three. Right. Here's the thing about you, Will. On a surface level and in certain ways in the way that you show up on social media, you're living this kind of aspirational jet setting lifestyle of luxury. It's like Dubai, London, Paris, Berlin, New York, five-star hotels and brunch and fancy dinners and cold plunges and hanging out at the beach or on the Amalfi Coast. there's this polarity like there is that aspect of you that is unapologetically like enjoying their life to the absolute fullest and then there's the nose to the grindstone hard-working like humble servant aspect of you you live your life in the same way an athlete trains on the polarities it's like zone one and two or like zone five and six you're never in this gray zone but i think with that you are kind of courting some controversy in the ultra running community, but I only know you as the humble good friend who has a real like a deep spirit and a deep care for the people that you care about.

35:03And I don't know that that always translates necessarily. And so I'm sure you're on the receiving end of a fair amount of antagonism online, which you seem to weather with a smile for the most part. But I would imagine it weighs on you. And I think in talking about Max, this is demonstrative of one of your finest qualities, which is that you're a lifelong learner. You're not somebody who's like, I got it figured out. You're not operating from a place of ego. When you first got interested in learning about the ultra world, one of the first people you called was Robbie, because you saw him online and what he had done by running across the country.

35:44And now he's one of your closest friends and you just came from Colorado. Like you basically cohabitate with this guy. You go on these fancy trips and then you go to this really small town in Colorado and you ground yourself and you get the training done and you're with like your best friend. And you reach out to Max because you realize there's so much you can learn from somebody like that, especially with the heat training stuff. And how can I leverage what he decided to do in his training that would benefit me on this upcoming expedition? Yeah. Yeah. Life is a big disparity for me, but I think I've always wanted to make the most of things.

36:23And then that really got heightened when I lost my mom of the whole thing of like, tomorrow is not promised. So there's part of me that's like, I want to go and experience and do everything I can. But then there's also a part of me that loves the grind, loves actually having some level of day-to-day practices that stay the same. Yeah, all of it is based around the loss and trying to make the most of things. And I love everywhere other than the middle. I like being at Moab, doing a 15-minute nap on the side of a trail, having not slept for like 32 hours. And then obviously I like being in the opulence and luxury of things.

37:04In the bathrobe, eating your poached eggs. It's fun to habitat both worlds, whatever you're interested in. I've always been interested in these things and now somehow figured out how to balance them. Sure, you might say I'd be a better ultra athlete if I lived in the same place and trained all year. But my thirst for life isn't just in one realm. I love doing that. I love exploring that world. but also, yeah, I want to see what different cities are around the world. You're not interested in being saintly or being perceived as some kind of pure role model. No, and I don't feel like people should look up to me as a role model either.

37:48But one thing I would say is what I might promote is being yourself in any way, shape, or form that you get to do that. You don't just hide and try and be in one box. If you're interested in something that isn't particularly normal in whatever world you inhabit, then I think that's a good thing. You can connect with more people the more sides of you that you show, and somehow you can get more opportunities doing it like that as well. You are always unapologetically yourself. I think that's a strength. you know, whether people like, you know, how you show up or not, you're not saying sorry for being who you are and you're just standing in your power and in your strength.

38:33And I think that that is attractive, you know, and you're unflappable in terms of like, if people have opinions about how you're living your lifestyle, like that's about them. Right. But I think it creates a curiosity in the public. Like I go on Chris Williamson's podcast and like, this guy's, it's not like he's super into ultra running and he's like, what do you think of Will Gouge? This is like people want to know. And I know you, I don't know you super well, but I know you well enough to know the real person and where I think people get confused about what you're really about. Yeah. I'm a small town kid, son of a nurse and a carpenter.

39:10We always had food on the table. There was no opulence there, but I just always saw people doing amazing things and had this feeling like, it's like, why can't it be me? I've met obviously a lot of interesting people. Like to me, you're a superstar to me, but when I've met them, I've seen them on the human side rather than what they've done and what they've achieved. If I meet any kind of celebrity, I actually feel a bit sorry for them because even in my small experience of people knowing who I am when I'm out and about sometimes, it makes me uncomfortable. So I feel some level of, not pity, but some level of understanding for that.

39:48The most interesting person I've ever met where I was kind of like, wow, what the fuck was Felix Baumengarter, the gentleman that jumped out of space for Red Bull, unfortunately passed away. I think it was last year. Yeah, not that long ago. But for me, he is one of one. He's the only person to have done that incredible thing, free falling from outer space from a balloon. So that blew my mind. But yeah, Yeah, people, I just like to, I like to meet them on a human level and you might not like some of the things I do and I understand that, but I think there's more people supporting than there are trying to talk it down and I'm okay.

40:25I'm not hurting anyone. I think I'm putting out good things towards the world. I'm trying to be myself. I'm not trying to hide or put a mask on at any point. So if you like it, great. If you don't, I also respect that and that's totally fine. Fuck off. Sometimes it's fuck off. sometimes it's just like, yeah, whatever. I want to circle back to that in a minute, but you said that you have this kind of reflex, like, why not me? Yeah. How do you have that? Like, what did you do to cultivate that? Or what about your upbringing contributed to you having that empowered sense of self versus an inner monologue that's like, I could never do that.

41:05I'm not really sure. I think it's just because most people before they achieve something are not like famous or don't have anything. They've grown up the same as we've grown up as children or whatever, obviously in different circumstances, but something within them made them great. And a lot of the time it's just like a mindset. People talk about manifesting, putting things out there, thinking about it and attaching themselves to it. And then it's more likely to happen. It's just, it's just always been within me in that sense. Um, not that I'm particularly talented across a whole bunch of things.

41:40Everything for me is just like, can I graft more than someone else to get where I want to be, which is inherently what running thousands of miles involves. So yeah, I can't say there was a key moment where I thought of that. It's just kind of blossomed in me from an early age. On the subject of these challenges and maybe even more acutely this upcoming challenge being 100 % mental, is there a rigor or a certain practice where you're consciously trying to cultivate your mental toughness to handle this or or you know like how do you think about that and prepare yourself i have the most simple phrase of all time can i take another step the answer is always yes because it doesn't matter unless you've broken your leg or something has gone terribly wrong you can always take one more step forward in which you can apply to any part of your life but having seen my own mom fight for life I was there when she passed away the the thing of seeing someone hold on to life is is quite insane it's not a nice thing to experience but it shows you what the human body is capable of even right towards the very end so I realized that I am not even close to that that point I'm not taking my last breath so the act of taking one more step even though it might hurt and often does over and over again, I can still do it.

43:08It's a very ultra realistic view of the position I'm in. It's basically breaking it down to a James Clear atomic habits thing. You don't have to worry about the New York City marathon when you're in the middle of Ohio. You just have to worry about what you're doing right now and can you take that next step. That applies broadly to every aspect of life. It's not a running thing. No, it's not. People think it's about whether they're considering their own relationship with change or transformation or trying to lose 10 pounds or whatever it is. I think there's not enough emphasis on like the only time you can actually do anything whatsoever is right now.

43:51Yeah. And we're just thinking about like, how are we going to do that thing tomorrow? Or I should have done this other thing better yesterday. Yeah, we love putting it off and we also love setting the intention maybe the day before or the hour before. And then you have that reaction in your brain where you get the good feedback like you've already done it. Like you already did it. Yeah. And that happens to me still. I still do these things. I'm never perfect through normal life. But when you force yourself into a situation where you're doing a challenge like this, there is no way out other than to finish.

44:23You can't put it off by. sometimes i actually this profound confrontation with self i mean that's like the real that's the that's the juice of the whole ultra experience like you cannot escape your own weaknesses and whatever your mind is telling like you are just like it's right smack in your face yeah and you gotta you gotta you gotta grapple with that you are in every second it's a true serum but the irony is when i do these things i still feel lazy so to people watching there's no like enlightenment towards the end or during it thinking you're fucking brilliant or whatever what do you mean you feel lazy how could you possibly feel lazy i feel like i'm either not running fast enough or i'll get into a an aid stop and i might stay two minutes too long but there is i think it's because you're in you're really in fight or flight it's a very highly stressful situation to put yourself into and that's why after i do these things outside of the physical strain it puts on your body like my all my systems are down when i finish these things after australia i was sleeping for 16 hours a day for a week so you really do go through a lot but yeah the feeling of lazy or i could have gone faster i could have gone further is is always there but it's then also a driving force so i wouldn't say it's inherently bad but it also kind of levels levels the playing field or at least gives people an insight into that when you maybe do these things that you still don't feel like uh king of the world a huge part of the six success or failure equation with this is going to be about how efficiently you're going to be able to recover in between these marathons, right?

46:02So I imagine there's a whole strategy around this and a team that is going to be joining you to attend to this. Like, what does that look like? Like, this is literally on the stopwatch too. Like you have an hour, you know, before like, we're going to, okay, we're going to get on this plane. It's a 30 minute flight. We're going to land this and you're going to have to get out and get right to it, right? And so what can we do in that period of time to get you ready? I'm laughing because it's - It's like formula one. It's a lot less than people maybe consider. And I think with recovery in general, I think this is just like a marketing thing.

46:34It's like nothing is going to help me that much. It's like supplements. There are supplement to what already should be good. So I've never had a physio on anything I've done. I've never had like a team doctor. Part of the reason for that is I feel like they're either going to tell me something I don't want to know, like something's actually wrong. And in my head, if I don't know what's wrong, I just have to push through, it hurts, whatever. Or they're going to take up too much time by massaging me for 20 minutes. There has to be a happy medium with that though. Yeah, we're quite a circus. Like if things start to go wrong, I don't have a doctor, but like Robbie and Jason having done these things before know how to strap an ankle.

47:14so there's that and then really the only things i use consistently is like the normatek boots the compression sleeves i think they're great for moving blood flow around even when i'm in ultra races if i don't have them like an aid stop or whatever if it's 60 miles in i'll put my legs in legs in the air and you can feel like the blood draining from them and you'll massage them so a similar kind of thing but we're gonna have to i'm gonna have to learn how to nap quite well again because like you say when i've got the three in a day some of them i'm finishing at like four o 'clock in the morning and then getting in a car and driving two or three hours and then it's like, okay, get out and do another one.

47:49And when your nervous system is that jacked up, you'd think it would be easy to fall asleep after these things. It's actually quite difficult. It is. But also I think the experiences of what I've done before have made it easier. It's definitely a learned practice of being able to kind of sleep-ish on cue. So I'll be listening into binaural beats and stuff like that when I'm in an RV or maybe if I can on a commercial flight, I don't know. But yeah, sleep is king. Fortunately, like I've said before, there's these little buffers where there's some times where I might have like a seven hour window so I could sleep properly.

48:26But on these events, Australia averaged, I think it was just over five hours a night for 34 nights. So yeah. And what's the fueling strategy? fueling is i i eat whole foods as much as possible like you think it's just like a grab of calories in any way shape or form you can or using things like gels but they all have like a well your gut basically has a shelf life of how much it can it can tolerate of less than healthy things or gels for example like i'll use them for a marathon i don't feel great afterwards um so yeah um i'll be trying i'll probably be burning depending on if it's a two or three marathon day from about 6 ,000 to probably 9 ,000 calories a day.

49:11So it's getting fuel as frequently as possible, especially on the journeys in between. Usually I see the crew every seven miles and have like a, what you consider probably a meal, even if it's a shake. But on this, because I have the five hour window, we have to kind of reimagine that. I will see the crew probably every seven miles. We'll do the three miles first with everyone that wants to come down and then seven seven to finish. So I'll be probably lightly fueling on those bits and then a conscious effort in the travel between to pack on as many calories as I can. One of the things you're doing is heat training.

49:47Max has you like queued up on how to do that. Obviously his experience preparing for bad water paid off tremendously and he's this huge proponent of it. So you've made these videos where you're putting on the same like heat suit and the whole deal, but you're doing it at altitude. I got influenced. You got influenced by an influencer, but he's so handsome. He's great. Yeah. So how can you not be influenced by him? Yeah. And the proof's in the pudding. Sure. So, so, you know, you got the core suit on and then you got the hoodie on, on top of it. You're running at altitude doing this. How long have you been doing this?

50:25Have you seen benefits from this or what is the experience and what exactly are you doing? Like lay out like exactly how this is different from normal training and what you're trying to accomplish. So I've done two sessions so far, because I actually had a call with a thermo, I don't know, an expert in heat training that was part of the core team. So I had a call with them, I think it was the start of last week and they were like, introduce it slowly, but I'll be doing two to three heated sessions a week of 50 minutes. And then I'll be doing two passive ones, which means being in a sauna. so the idea is you run five six miles first so your core temperature rises and then you put the suit on and the hoodie and everything else and then you go out for up to 50 minutes literally cooking yeah but the experience i was actually you gotta work up to that yeah you can't just go out and do 50 minutes the first one i did though i did seven miles easy and then put it on and then i did 45 minutes and i was a bit sort of dizzy towards the end but it felt good um The thing is being in Colorado at that altitude is it's super, super dry.

51:31So I think the experience of me doing it down here in California, I'm going to do one on Santa Monica Beach tomorrow, will be very different. So we're going to continue to speak to them. But I do my own training program for this. We have a week of I need to get to 100 miles one way or another. But within that, there's two heat sessions and there is a speed session or tempo. because I need to be able to have the leg carry over to be doing back to back to back to back to et cetera, five hour marathons. It's quite slow considering, but to do 15 rows. But the idea is to make the body more resilient so that it can function as your core body temperature escalates.

52:13And so in these sessions, do you have that like the core thing that goes on your chest strap that's measuring your body temperature and you're also paying attention to how dehydrated you're becoming. So that informs like your electrolyte and fueling strategy, if you know how much sweat loss you're experiencing. And this also is gonna depend upon like humidity versus dryness. Actually it's pretty humid out here in LA. Like incredibly, it's usually never humid. So I would take advantage of the weird humidity that we're experiencing here. Because heat in Badwater, which is very dry, is gonna be different than heat in Athens, Georgia, where it's just humid as all get out, right?

52:53And how does your body respond to those different types of heat? Yeah, and I'm gonna obviously be going through all of it. Considering we're doing it October to the very beginning of November. It's cooling down. Yeah, you're not, this is not a bad water experience. It's not, but in talking to Max as well, he said, even if I was gonna do like a cold race, I'd still implement it. And the whole thing of like heat training is increasing blood plasma. and also it teaches your body to basically regulate its temperature better. So your core temperature isn't rising as quickly and then it's also cooling down quicker after that.

53:25So that improves recovery and then in turn improves everything cardio wise. You can train again quicker afterwards, et cetera. And then if you're in heat, then you're going to deal with it a lot better. So if you crush this challenge on the heels of Max Joliffe rewriting the record book at Badwater, I can see this being a catalyst for a whole new trend of people exploring heat training. People have always done this to one degree or another. Old school Badwater athletes would put a treadmill in the sauna and run, but now this is just adding more science into it and experimentation. Yeah, that's what was kind of interesting to me.

54:05You've always seen people do it you've seen rocky baba famous scene gray sweatpants sweating through it so it's always been a thing but like you say there's now a level of scientific and detail to it you get like a heat adaptation score with this core device as well so it's interesting and like we said earlier like how much better athletes are going to become in this space that has been traditionally underfunded undervalued people have just kind of gone done done it in an exploratory way now it's really becoming professional. The most important resource we have is time. And we need to really understand how important that is, because most of us are wasting too much of it.

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57:30You've run across America. You've run across Australia. You did Moab. You've done a lot of things. You've worked your way up to earning your right to embark upon what you're about to do. How has your training changed or evolved? Like what have you learned from the mistakes you've made in the past or, you know, how you've approached these other races, uh, in terms of like how you're preparing for this, or has it always just been like, I do this thing and it works for me? Now to begin with, I just would totally make it up. And to a certain degree, I'm making it up now, but it's a lot more informed than it was before.

58:08It was just about high mileage and doing strength training, which I've always done. And I think is a key if you're a 10k runner or doing ultra marathons, like you need to have a level of strength protection around the joints, et cetera. So I'm just a lot more informed doing these heat sessions, doing speed sessions. When you think I'm running over a thousand miles, you think speed wouldn't be that important, but I need turnover. When my legs are thrashed, I still need to be able to run. you're still doing track workouts. Yeah. Even though you're unlikely to run faster than a 10 minute per minute pace for this entire thing.

58:45So like walk me through the wisdom of that. Like why do that at all? It's all about turnover. Like the best ultra runners will still be doing speed work. You can't just go out and plod 10 minute miles every day and do high mileage. You're going to get more out of doing less miles, but having some specific sessions in there that tempo or speed then you are doing 140 miles at the same pace you need you need different inputs stimuli different stimuli exactly like last weekend we hiked shavano one of the 14ers in colorado with robbie and that was a 10 mile experience of going extremely slowly but that's the kind of feeling i'm going to be having on day 14 where i've run a few hundred miles already and my legs feel extremely taxed so how do you replicate that in a training setting and then also be ready for it when it comes in the reality of the challenge.

59:36What is the balance of strength training to traditional run training and how does it change as you get closer to the starting line of a big event? I always do one session a week, even with the mileage quite high like it is now. So I'm doing over a hundred miles every week. And then the two weeks before I will switch and do two, maybe even three sessions a week while I'm in that kind of taper period. so I'm trying to load up on strength and also I'll be eating a lot more so I don't go into it sort of emaciated or whatever because I need something to lose when I'm on that start line. Yeah, you need that, but you also don't want to be logging around unnecessary extra body weight, big shoulders and chest that are only just going to get tight and demand, you know, like resources.

1:00:22Yeah. I haven't trained upper body this entire year. Not at all. I've done one pushup. You're a genetic freak then because your physique is insane. Yeah, I do a lot of core work and there'll be like a lot of like farmer's carries and things like that. So I'm still gripping and holding weight in my arms. But it's kind of a frustrating thing. I think when I'm older, I'll love it because, you know, being strong and stuff is great for longevity. But through my running career, it's actually been quite fucking annoying. I've always got a big chest and things that are completely unnecessary. It's like a winter bulk.

1:00:53And then you taper off of that as you progress your running volume and stay enough in contact with it so that you're maintaining adequate strength for the purpose of ultra running performance. No. No. You don't. I could say like my years are often geared around like a specific event or a specific race. Yeah. When I finish - Let me just - Hold on a second. So just so we're clear when Will says that, my life is oriented around a specific event or a race. Most of these things are events, quote unquote events. These events are the Monaco Grand Prix, Paris Fashion Week, New York Fashion Week, the Venice Biennale.

1:01:35This is what we're talking about, right? I was talking about races specifically, but yes, I do some other things. style event piece. Yeah. And then there's the racing event piece. Yeah. Usually I do something big every two years. So this opportunity came up after Australia, which I finished last May. Completely destroyed afterwards. I took the rest of the year off, didn't really run too much, and then immediately got into a marathon block for London this year. What did you go? You were trying to go 245. Yeah, I did a 247 something, which was, I think, a 11 minute PV or something. So it was good, but that was also like a nice lead in to then really up in the miles because I had had that seven, eight months of kind of doing nothing other than enjoying myself and drinking and then straight back into the serious stuff.

1:02:26But yeah, my years are just like constantly changing. So I don't feel like I have any kind of real program of maintenance. I like running so I go out and do it. I like going to the gym, So I do, I don't want to be overweight. I want to be able to move freely. So there's, there's always some element of that in my practice, but there is no like clear intention until I'm like, okay, I'm doing mob in eight months. How are we going to do a training camp for that? In doing a forensic analysis of this route and all the logistics that go into this and the, the, the just very tiny margin of error. I mean, I think it's easy to say like, well, we have a four day buffer, but like, you know, maybe you have like a two day buffer who knows you know what I mean but there has to be specific pain points along that route like when you look at it where do you see like the most constriction like oh that one's going to be really tough to pull off it's when I do the the three two three there's there's one example where I've got a triple double then triple close together so that will be that'll be the biggest test because I can't I don't know if you've got the states in in front of you there.

1:03:36So the pinch moment is day nine. You're gonna do three and then you're gonna do two and then you're gonna do three again. Yeah. See, to me, what looks very difficult is October 30. So at the very tail end of this thing, you're gonna do Massachusetts, Vermont, and New Hampshire in one day. Yeah. So you're gonna be going into the New York City Marathon just absolutely tanked. Yeah, it's interesting because I am due to arrive in New York, I think at 3 a.m. So the race starts a few hours after that. So you're going to go right from the airstrip to the starting line, basically. Yeah, I think we drive that section though.

1:04:18Oh, you do? Yeah. But either way, it's going to be interesting because when I did the similar thing, 48.30, 48 marathons, 48 counties of England, 30 days, I finished the London marathon and I PB'd. I did a 306. So that was my PB at the time. Or you just realize the body is just a magical instrument. Yeah. It's almost like the body is saying to you, like, oh, now I finally get it at the end. Like, I figured it out, you know, and it's just capable of astounding things. I mean, I remember when I did Epic Five, which is just a, you know, kind of small example of what you're doing. Like, the fifth day, I felt the best.

1:05:00Yeah. it doesn't make it doesn't make physiological sense but a lot of people that do these things get fitter during it like iron cowboy the first few days your body's like yeah but he was absolutely falling apart at the end he was falling apart that was extreme it was a close call there for a minute yeah but it is funny how like the the first few days or i've had experience of the first nine days across australia which were absolutely horrendous your body's in shock like you know, what are we doing? When you've done it before, it's a little bit less shock. But then afterwards, there's like this, it's like your shoulders drop and everything becomes less stiff.

1:05:36And it's like, okay, this is what we do now. Mind, body, everything seems to be working together in a beautiful, more fluid way. And of course, you have like bumps along the road, but it's incredible when you force your body through your mind and spirit to do something, how eventually it's like okay and you you work together i have this crazy thing where i talk to my body parts when i'm doing these things i'll like thank my feet at the end of the day or tell me more about this or if my it actually happened when i did john i go at salam's end phil griffin who um who filmed the whole thing told me about a practice he did and i just i just took it in my own way and whenever anything hurt like it would definitely be like hip flexes or whatever i'd be thanking like the quads or the glutes and be like, thank you for taking the strain.

1:06:25The hip flexors have gratitude for that. And I'd always be like towards the end, like, don't worry, we've only got a few more days left. I need you to like give me everything for these few days. And then it's massage time, horizontal, we're going to be great. But yeah, it's interesting to disassociate your own body from like your mind, like there are different, there's conversations always happening. but it was always a beautiful practice for me that I've continued to do. Never really spoken about that much but it's just a natural thing I've done and I do really think it helps. It's like a gratitude practice.

1:07:02I mean, you can do that with respect to your inner monologue also. If you start to hear that voice saying, you can stop, it's okay, it'll still be good and you can be like, thank you for your input. But like, I'll take it into consideration but like right now, like, you know, I know what you're trying to do. you're trying to protect me, but like, it's just not necessary right now. And like, I'll check back in with you later. Your point has been raised, I've heard it. Yes. Right now we're not gonna go with your point of view. Right. I know you have my best interest at heart. You know? Like I appreciate you, you know, rather than like, shut the fuck up.

1:07:39Yeah. I sometimes do that too. But I think - Well, sometimes it's necessary. I kind of get inspiration from all forms. Whether I'm angry, whether I'm happy. There's the physical pain points along this way, like backing up these three marathon days. But there's also logistical pain points, I would imagine, where the margin of error is very small. Like if we don't finish this and be here by this time, we're going to miss this flight. Yeah. Or we're not going to be able to get to the next place in time where we have enough time to actually accomplish what we need to do tomorrow. You know, and that's where the precision and the military kind of like focus on keeping you on track is going to be important because you're just trying to do the thing.

1:08:23Somebody's got to keep you on the rails to make sure that like you're on schedule the whole time. Yeah. There's like no moment where you can just kick back because it's a domino effect on the rest. You threaten the entire operation. Yeah, I could. If you fall behind, you can't really catch up. No, it's pretty much impossible, but that's also why it's so amazing. And the only reason we can do it is because of Goodwin's influence and their help. They'll have people off the scene. We're going to have a captain in every single state that can accept things we needed in the buildup. So they might get sent some food.

1:08:59They'll get sent some merchandise that they can give up. But there's a Goodwin employee managing each and every state. So we have someone on the ground ready to do stuff. And this is what they do. logistics is their business, right? AI, but human as well, but everything is funneling into being as seamless and as professional as possible. And if things go wrong, they'll hopefully, I'm pretty sure I have absolute confidence in them. You're depending upon them to reroute or something like that. So everything is basically live in time going on all the time. Do you have contingency plans? Like, okay, let's say some unforeseen variable interferes with this.

1:09:40We're not going to make this flight. We're not going to do this. So there is like a plan B that takes you on a whole different route to accomplish this on time. They have some other plans, like a plan B, plan C, et cetera. I just haven't asked to see them. I don't need that in my head. I'm doing it this way. We're going plan A. It's going to work. I'll run faster, et cetera, et cetera. And this time you have the Guinness Book of World Records onboard, like there's buy-in, like you've appraised them that this is what you're attempting to do. It's been vetted. Like you're, you're operating on a different level professionally in terms of like how you're tracking this to immunize yourself against some of the attacks that you've had to weather in the past around your performance.

1:10:32Which is all fair enough. So Guinness have made it an official challenge or record that I can do. there is still some stuff we're doing with the licensing but it's all moving in the right direction um actually recently i just i actually got the fkt across australia right i wanted to talk about that i mean this is the lead into that there's a lot of you know i know that you've suffered i know that rob this robbie has taken this really hard uh just all the criticism uh that you were on the receiving end of like in your in your past attempts i mean with crossing america with how well are you actually tracking it?

1:11:11This guy showing up on the course. We talked about this the last time you were on the show. People questioning your heart rate data when you were running across Australia. There's countless Reddit threads about this and a lot of discourse, let's say, and a lot of acrimony and a lot of questioning. So where are you at with that now? What is it that you want to say about all of that? Well, firstly, the burden of proof seems to just keep going up and up and up because of social media and people seeing it. Back in the day when someone ran across the US and got the record, there was nothing to do with heart rate.

1:11:49If you wanted to do a Guinness World Record, you had witness statements. So the burden of a proof has improved or gone up, but these things, In Guinness, FKT, they have their regulations, they're professionals, they look at things in the most professional way and they are the gold standard between them. So some random people online saying my heart rate is too low and doesn't match up to me is just, it's because they can't believe it because they can't do it themselves or they have some kind of ill feeling towards me because of like you've said, the kind of the life I live, but then also the levels of athleticism I can go to.

1:12:28so we've always tried to do what we thought was best or the most when america happened that's when it really like cranked up i was like fucking oh i didn't know who was that guy who who like flew in will cockerel yeah he had an issue with me because his friend bruce tuller had the british record no one gives a flying fuck who's the fastest brit to run across america it's who's the fastest person to run across America. We just use that to make it. But he was very committed to maligning you. Yeah. Yeah. He wants to see my downfall. And where is he at with all of this now? I still been messaging a bit about what we're doing.

1:13:08He had a problem with me saying that it was then going to be 24 days instead of 20. Like I had to stick to what I said originally. It's like we were still planning it. So we, we try and do the best we can. I've like across Australia, had a live tracker on me at all times. I've obviously got the watch. So it's like, if anyone wants to turn up at any point and see where I am, which a lot of people, over a hundred people did across Australia, they can do that. But what level do I have to go to and take on expense of proving that we're doing this thing by live streaming or inviting a judge out that I have to pay to be there for 34 days?

1:13:44Like it's mental. like live tracker uh you know all the garmin data maybe you know backup garments or whatever you're using to track your metrics and all of that i mean is there anything more that you would need like i don't know what the what the expectations are with guinness and and everybody else like what is it that they want to see you do that would sufficiently calm them down well those guys are all okay with it. FKT and Guinness are fine with what I've applied for the information I've given. Like FKT will look at the cadence along with my splits, et cetera. And they're like, all of that matches up exactly as it should do.

1:14:31Your wrist heart rate data might be skewed, but when you're wearing something for 16 hours a day running every single day, is it going to be totally accurate? Do I need to wear an ECG when I do this thing? So we have complete. Yeah. I mean, the chest strap data can be at times unreliable. Also, I was on the treadmill this morning and I noticed like, oh, my, my hurry, this is, this is not right. Like, you know, based on perceived effort, like what it was telling me, I was like, this is, I need a new heart rate monitor or something because this is like all over the place. Yeah. Sometimes you'll move your wrist strap or I'll like tighten it.

1:15:03The wrist is always tremendously unreliable. But yeah, the thing is, it's like, what fucking more do you want from us? Like we're broadcasting it all out there. You can see where we are at all times. For America, we're obviously taking it to another level. I will wear two watches. So we have like a backup Strava account that you can see that I'm definitely doing the distance. And because it's so construed of doing a marathon distance in each state, I need two forms of distance. And then obviously whichever watch is the furthest. So one might be at like 26.2, but the other one might be at 26.1.

1:15:37So I'll use the other one and then continue to go. Like I said, we've got an open door policy for the first three miles of every single run so people can come down the course is the final 5k also right uh i think we're just going to do the opening just opening 5k but then all of my routes are going to be visible as well that i'm taking and i'm going to have the live tracker on me so at any point you can pull up and check if i'm running all right so what do you really want to say to the haters out there i just fucking get a life really i mean what I would also say is thank you because all of their attention has only just built into everything I'm doing so the more attention I get the more people saying like well it's actually a very small small section of people that say I fake things but it all goes towards the machine of this being professional me doing bigger and better things me having the opportunity to do what I'm about to do so inadvertently even though you're trying to take me down you're actually raising me up even more.

1:16:36It's funny in the comments when you see people that I know or just strangers that are backing me up. The Strava ones across Australia were insane. Do you engage with this or you're just kind of vicariously - I don't have the time. I'm running 16 hours a day and then I have to sleep as soon as I can afterwards. But I mean in the aftermath and you're kind of going through it. No, not really. I don't really look back at a whole load of things. I never watch the videos of what I've done before. I recently started watching the America thing again. So I haven't watched this since I did it. I've never listened back to a podcast I've done.

1:17:17For me, it's like moments in time that I was in and it's beautiful and I enjoy it. But the whole thing of looking back, I don't know. I think I'll do it eventually when I'm older and I'm maybe out of this world to to see what I've done and how it's shaped to have become. But yeah, the day to day, it's like, I'm living in today and also seeing what's next. Yeah. Is there a sense of anxiety as you get closer to the date or is it just enthusiasm? Like on this mantra of like one more step, like trying to break it down into like, okay, what do I have to do today? Obviously alleviate some of that stress and pressure, but it's so daunting.

1:17:57I would imagine you might be waking up in the middle of the night occasionally saying, what did I get myself into? This is insane. Or no. No, I don't. I'm excited. It's an opportunity to do something great, to see all 50 states. Any point in your life is cool. I'm obviously not going to see a whole lot of it. It might be five or six hours, but it's such a big opportunity that who knows if it will ever be done again. Somehow I'm the man that's going to be going out and doing it. So there's a level of privilege. There is a level of pressure behind it because I'm representing like stand up to cancer and I want to do a good job for them and raise as much money as we can.

1:18:37I'm always representing my mom. So there's an element of that as well. But the overriding feeling is one of joyous curiosity of what's to come. I love adventure in all forms. And this is pretty pinnacle of what I've done so far. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the best mindset to be in, right? To be able to enjoy it or appreciate it while it's happening. Yeah. And not be fixated on like crossing the finish line in New York City. Yeah. And also, I know it's going to be terrible at times, but that's also why I do it. This is what you're signing up for. Yeah, that's what you want. Like to go through something hard and to get out of the other side is the ultimate goal of most things.

1:19:22and the feeling of being worthy or earning something through hard work for me is amazing. So I get to do that again in those really dark moments. It's like, how do I get out of that? Do I learn something? Do I go back on something I've done before? But it's always a test and you're only as good as your last day or in this case, like your last marathon, like nothing before it matters, nothing matters after it when I'm in it. It's do I have the dog in me today to get it done and then we'll do tomorrow tomorrow setting aside the philanthropic aspect of this uh cancer awareness and raising money for research and care etc uh and understanding your disinterest in in being considered any kind of like role model uh you are at the same time like stewarding a message around human potential and capability so outside of the cancer aspect of this like what is it what is the message that you want people to receive who are going to follow along on this?

1:20:25Like what is it that you want them to feel and believe as a result of you tackling such a difficult challenge? I want them to be less scared. I think a lot of us move through life with fear of losing something, not being enough. And a lot of the time fear stops us from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals. So I'm just trying to be a voice for, I'm going to go and do this thing. The outcome is not guaranteed. There are so many variables and so many things that could go wrong, but I'm still going to go into it with like a level of confidence that I can get this done because I'm putting my mind to it.

1:21:02There's so much of me invested in this that we can do way bigger things than we ever thought of. Like I say, I'm from a small town in the middle of England. And this conversation right now was not part of my bingo card. And basically 95 % of the rest of my life wasn't either. So yeah, get out and chase something. It doesn't have to be running, but do it without fear. And it's not like you came up as a runner. You were a rugby player. Running came later in life. And it came as a way of managing your grief. Honestly, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to become a runner and become this competitive athlete.

1:21:38It's just, that's what it served you for at that time. And it was a natural outgrowth. It wasn't like, I'm gonna get into this and then eight years from now, this is what I'm gonna be doing. Like, I think people think that someone like yourself or people that are achieving at a high level in their respective discipline made a plan long ago and whiteboarded out the whole thing. And they're just like in lockstep with that plan. And maybe that occurs with some people, but I think more often than not, when it's inspired by some kind of genuine emotion, you're just kind of following that and you're making space for these magical things to come into your life.

1:22:22So it's more about an openness than it is about goal setting necessarily. Yeah, I'd agree with that 100%. There was no plan when I got into it. I never saw past running John O 'Grexelan's End. And then after that, it gave me like a bit of confidence and maybe I could explore this more, which led to 4830, which led to the US, which led to Australia, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I think it's not being closed off to what the world is doing because the world's always changing. Everything is changing together. And yeah, everything I do is explorative. I love the relationship that you have with Robby.

1:23:01So I want to hear more about what that relationship is like and what role he plays in your life. Well, I actually had quite an emotional chat with him. I think it was before Moab. And I basically said to him, and I was kind of crying when I said it, but I needed to get it across of like how important he is to me. I said, I lost my mum in the January and I'd lost such a huge part of my life. There was a gaping hole. And then I truly feel like she sent Robbie to me as like an angel to be able to take this young adult that had this dream of doing something that you shouldn't have been able to do, but also be a voice of reason.

1:23:48And I see very similar like qualities and characteristics between them. Robbie has been so giving to me and always got behind what I did and his enjoyment or his gratification out of it is through me completing it. My mom was very much in that vein as well. It was like, how do I allow my son to be free and do the things he wants to do and then celebrate his achievements if he has any. So yeah, me and my relationship with Robbie is extremely special. Like I say, I feel like my mom left and he arrived to fill some of that gap. And he's really been a steward of taking me from this fucked up 23 year old and then guided me through everything.

1:24:34Even like I said, I didn't have a plan and maybe neither did he. He's really like held my hand through that entire experience and allowed me to achieve what I've been able to achieve. Because honestly, without him, I would have failed John O 'Groatsalans End. There was a time on that where I had erupted a ligament of my ankle going through this field. And I got back into the wagon and I was like distraught. My ankle was like the size of a football. No one else could tell me anything because they hadn't done anything. But I saw this Robbie Ballinger character as this larger than life, amazing guy who'd run across the US recently.

1:25:08money. So what he says holds a lot of weight for me. And he was basically like, the schedule's too tight. You will figure it out. Your ankle will learn how to move again. It's like, but you have to get out and do it now. And in any other situation with anyone else in the world telling me that, I'd have told them to fuck off and I'd have canceled it for the day. It might have taken me an extra week or I'd have never done it and I wouldn't be here now. So that's the level of impact he's had on my life. Other than then just being a general sage and mentor, what are some other pieces of concrete advice that he's given you?

1:25:48Concrete advice. To keep this bright-eyed, occasionally wayward young man on the rails. He's helped me on the wayward side as well, because he had a rule when we were going across Australia, which I've always implemented, which is always one beer, sometimes two, never three. So it's quite like a pirate operation. We're kind of all over the place, but we like to have fun in the ridiculousness of what we're doing. Yeah. You would finish the day and you're like, I'm going to have a beer. Why not? Why does it have to be just all hardness and suffering? There is a different way to experience this. It's just an element of that that takes you out of what you're doing.

1:26:30And in a lot of society, if you've had a tough week at work, you go to the pub on a Friday and you have a beer, you've done something good. So that allows me to like disassociate with what I'm doing. And also as like a tight knit crew, we'll like have dinner together and it feels - Your nervous system can - Yeah. And then I just relax and then, yeah, take my head out of what I'm doing because it's so extreme. And in my life and the way you see it, it's like, I have to enjoy things along the way. I can't be, I'm never going to be training and doing the same thing for 12 months. like the athletes I love from the past and people I can think of like um like Dennis Rodman he was he couldn't shoot but he defended like a dog and the coach would let him go to Vegas and do his thing blast some steam he wasn't afraid to enjoy his life exactly he was on the far end of that extreme I think very to his detriment but very but those those kind of athletes I think it's just like people need to be managed differently people have different like kinks and things they need or they're interested in and yeah I like people that do things that do things their own way like we've said about me being unapologetic myself like I've I really love like Ben Felton who's Ben is running on Instagram known him for years he's so dedicated to to running every day and being like a professional like I just love the way he promotes his stuff and he is himself I feel the realness of someone.

1:27:54And I also feel like the fakeness of holding things up and I'm going to go and do all major marathons in a year so I can TikTok it. Who are the other people out there that inspire you in different ways? Max is a big one. Max is great. We spoke about obviously Mark earlier as well. Well, he's doing amazing. And also to have seen him come out on the US and just like this random guy turns up and now he's doing that shit is incredible. Who else is it? Obviously, Robbie. Truett Haynes. I think he's brilliant. I love - He's another guy who's unapologetically himself - Exactly. In a cool and interesting way that brings a whole other swath of person into this world.

1:28:39Exactly. Running in his jeans and the whole deal. Yeah, it's crazy. It's performance art on some level, but it's coming from a genuine place. Exactly. So yeah, I like these like movers and shakers that are doing interesting things. And I like people that set big lofty goals, even if they, even if you don't eventually make it, like get out of your comfort zone. Right. Truett saying like, he's going to, he's going to, he wants to qualify for Olympic trials. Yeah. Yeah. Insane. And a lot of people saying that's impossible. You're way too, you have way too much muscle. You're way too big. Like there's a huge, like every minute after a certain point becomes exponentially harder to shave off your marathon time.

1:29:16And he is out of his mind thinking he's going to be able to improve that much in this amount of time. And we'll see. But he's documenting it and he's being transparent about it. And he seems unaffected by that. It's attention farming on some level, but it's an interesting story that I think the average person can understand. Like, oh, I see this guy. He looks different than these other guys. He's trying to do this thing. I guess that's a hard thing to do. And now I'm invested in seeing whether he can do it or not. Yeah. I like people having a crack, whether they make it or not. And yeah, just go for it.

1:29:52And then another guy who's also like an actual professional is George Mills. He's one of the fastest British and European 5K runners. And I've sought his counsel quite a lot over the years. Oh, that's good. So you're getting elite pro counsel from one of the best in the world yeah because also when I was doing London when I was in I was in Tokyo for quite a while before I did that um which was actually good because at the start of the year I'd been in Dubai and then Bali and Indonesia so it was very hot very humid and then I got to Japan I was like I still need to do some kind of heat training and he was the one that told me about getting in a 40 degree bath for 20 minutes and he was sending me all these photos from like the ones he'd made himself um but yeah having that like elitist grew up grew up doing track and field like from a young age like all that experience he's had now obviously being great at what he does like you get you get different um you get different information from someone like that then even like max doing the heat suit stuff max is kind of new to it true it's new to it you could say i'm new to it even though i've been around for eight nine years in this game but that's like the old school professional running information that I get.

1:31:05Is there anything else you're doing in training that is counterintuitive or different or experimental? Some of the time I lean into not fueling. Fasted training. Killian Jornay. I remember reading his book Above the Clouds, is it? And him being like a kid and his mom giving him like 250 milliliters of water to go and run a marathon. So I do a lot of, I do both because I now understand the need in training your gut to deal with high volumes of food, et cetera. So sometimes I'll go out on an empty stomach and try and test the body so I don't need as much, but then I also realize I have to do the opposite and sometimes get into what I'm gonna be doing, like eat a heavy meal and then go out running afterwards.

1:31:50Yeah. The fasted training is good to train your body to operate efficiently without a constant you know, fuel input. And by doing that, you realize like, you don't have to bring all this stuff with you. You know, if you're going out for a two hour run and you're at a certain level of fitness or whatever, like you can manage it. It's fine. It will impair how well you recover for the, if you have a big workout the next day, you'll pay for it then, but you'll be able to do that workout. And in this event that you're doing, like you're not going to be doing any of this. Like you're, you're always, whenever you're eating, you're eating for the next marathon.

1:32:25Like you're not eating to complete that marathon. You're always thinking ahead and planning and measuring out your calories for that purpose. But I think it's cool to like experiment with all of these things. I think you should just - Have you paid attention to what David Roche has done with like on the other end of like fasted training? Like he's trying to see how many grams of carbohydrates he can like digest because if he can digest more than the average runner or even get it to this elevated state, he can sustain a threshold pace for much longer and lay out insane performances, which he did at Leadville.

1:33:05He's gotten injured. He's had some struggles or whatever. It's not perfect. But there is something there also that I think is really interesting. Yeah, there definitely is. And in the professional game, it's really coming through now of how many carbs you can consume in an hour. That and bicarb have made a big difference. I've never actually used that, but it is interesting, but I think that's better suited to doing one race. Right. Rather than - And also when you're running a threshold, like when you're like getting into anaerobic zones. Yeah. And I'm running at 10 to 12 minute miles max where my heart rate happens to be a hundred, 108.

1:33:37At your very controversial low heart rate. Yeah. I don't know if anyone else has gone around a 12 minute mile, but it's like a fast walk and your heart rate doesn't really get up very high. Yeah. When it gets hot, it does. but the heat training will keep it down, I would imagine. I think Max's heart rate over the course of Badwater was like 143 or something like that. That's insane. I mean, have you ever tried to run in 120 degree heat? Your heart rate just goes through the roof instantly. Yeah, I'm terrible at it. That's why I've started doing the heat training because I thought I could just go to a hot country and kind of figure it out, but I couldn't.

1:34:12Yeah. Let's shift gears. I'm curious around, your experience with psychedelics, because I think this has contributed to how you think about not just your running, but life and what's important. Obviously, everything I've pushed and promoted about getting over my mom's passing was deeply rooted in destroying my body physically and finding some kind of spiritual help through that world. But the other thing that I've done on more than a few occasions now is psilocybin. And the first time I did it was before, actually it was after 4830, so probably 2022. There's always been, like I said, I've always been explorative.

1:35:06explorative. And around that time, I started hearing things around magic mushrooms and their association with like helping people that have gone through trauma, et cetera. So I was always interested in that world and I got a lot of literature, listened to a lot of podcasts about it. And then the way I do things, which has become quite apparent is I don't want to like half go into something. It's like I went straight to heroic. So I did six grams of psilocybin. In a medically assisted environment, just on your own. Freewheeling it. Yeah, exactly. I had this, I was out in the countryside. By the way, just for the audience out of like, you know, a sense of responsibility, please do not try this.

1:35:50Yeah, don't do anything I do. Don't do anything I do. Don't do a single thing that Will does. Yeah. Okay, clarify, alert the lawyers. Yes, good idea. But I went through this experience and for me, it was the most transformative thing I've ever been through. Towards the end of the trip, like obviously it was quite psychedelic and things went a bit crazy, but towards the end, I'd made this little camp. So like when you're a kid and you take the sheets off the bed and you start getting things. I also had this starlight that shot up a constellation. So I was laying in this makeshift tent, like looking up at this constellation when the trip was kind of getting to its deepest point.

1:36:34And originally all of these stars compiled to make my grandfather's face who was alive at the time. I was like, oh, that's very beautiful. And then they all went to my mum. And when you do a psychedelic experience, it's like you get told information and you feel like it's like you understand it. It's like you're an external voice, but what you're being told is absolutely true. And I felt my mum's presence and spirit within me. I felt very much connected to my dad as well. I felt like I'm born of both of them, which is true. But there was this palpable energy. There was this feeling that she was within me and has carried me this entire way.

1:37:18And I've had similar experiences at the depths of going through a run. And then I had this and I was out in the cosmos, whatever you want to call it. And one of the most profound feelings I've had, which I try to carry with me in every day now, is I got sucked out of whatever world this was. And I was out in the constellations and there was this central consciousness. It was like this huge brain mass of things and I could see the world down there and there were just thousands of these double, it was like an airplane's jet stream just shooting down and the information I got told and it's one of almost forgiveness or understanding why people maybe do things that don't align with your version of feeling is all these jet streams were the perception or the view, the lens of people's lives.

1:38:15So from front to back, what they've experienced, what they've seen. And I just had this profound sense that people may do messed up things or things you don't agree with, but if you had the same life lens of them, you would have done exactly the same thing. So there was a lot of like weight lifted off of feeling maybe annoyed at like people for having differing opinions. It definitely leveled everything out quite a lot. And yeah, that was the that was the first experience and the most profound one that made me feel the main I wrote down loads of notes but the main feeling I had and if I could rate a feeling like number one I felt reassured reassurance being reassured in anything is like there's a level of comfort to it so I just had this it's it's fine yeah I had this reassurance that like energy energy is forever.

1:39:08There's this cosmos out there. We're living in a somewhat of a matrix, but my mom's energy one is within me, which is a beautiful feeling to have. She's here. She's close, but also it lasts forever. It's everywhere I go. When I'm running, I'll always notice like if a bird is like kind of following me and I'll be like, I feel like that's her or a butterfly or whatever. So yeah, it was a profound experience and I've done it at like key moments in my life along the way and had a lot of different lessons from it, but it's definitely shaped how I do things and my comfortability with life and when things go wrong and just being able to let it go.

1:39:44Yeah. Yeah. What are some of those lessons more specifically? The one great one I had before America was I was out in Colorado with Robbie and Jason and we were in Jason's cabin, which is in the middle of nowhere. There's no electricity, there's no water, there's a stream out there. You turn up and you have to chop wood and put it on the fire whatever i did a heroic dose with them and we went out walking in the woods and around those two guys i've got like my idol in robbie everything he's done and then i've got jason this military guy he's he's very well spoken he's very spiritual so i put both of these guys on a pedestal which i don't feel like i'm on i don't feel like i'm these guys level and we're out we're out walking in the snow because it was freezing cold at the time I think we were his cabins at 10 ,000 feet we had just gone wandering through the woods firstly we had this moment where we all sat down and was just looking at this incredible scene as the Colorado mountains are snow everywhere and we were just like let's all take a moment for ourselves so close our eyes and at that moment I had like demons coming out to kind of grab me but I wasn't scared and I was I leant into it I was like like show me show me what you want to show me like if I need to go down this journey or whatever then do it so I alleviated some kind of fear of the unknown and they they disappeared but the main thing was on the way back Robbie and Jason basically let me lead and I felt that I had matured to a certain level where I could lead great men it was like a real transition into feeling like a a man or getting to adulthood in a way because these people I love and respect so much had almost passed the baton onto me and said, you lead us.

1:41:34So that was another one that set me well for that next transitional phase in life being, I think I was 26 at the time, so getting close towards 30 and feeling like I could stand on my own two feet and lead. Yeah. What I see is somebody who feels like they hold the right balance in terms of wanting to accomplish something great while also recognizing like the true value of that, like it's not that important, you know, like whether you do this or not, you know what I mean? For sure. Yeah. For real. And somebody who has grown from a person who used running to process grief, but also to punish yourself, like this is what I relate to.

1:42:28Like I'm in this place of recognizing that the history of my relationship with athletics and specifically like, you know, swimming and ultra endurance, these are vehicles for self-flagellation. You know, it's a way of saying I have to pay penance for breathing air and that tax that I owe, I can pay by like punishing myself in the pool or on these long training days or what have you. And what happens is that you get some material world success and validation for that. And so you double down on that. But fundamentally the relationship is unhealthy. You're sort of in this abusive relationship with yourself and you're extracting performances from it.

1:43:20And it's powering your life and moving you towards the things that you want in life, right? So it's confusing. And my healing journey has really been about understanding that it doesn't have to be that way. And through similar experiences that I've had, and then this surgery where it was really just like God or the universe saying, you need to stop. We're forcing you to stop. We're giving you this get out of jail free card. You can't move. The one thing that makes you more uncomfortable than anything is sitting still with yourself and your own thoughts, but there's no escape. So this is your ultra.

1:43:55What are you going to make of it? And by deciding to just embrace that rather than be in the mindset that I would have been otherwise, and I think most people are in, of how quickly can I recover and get back to this person I was before saying, if I stop resisting the one thing that I know will benefit me, who is the better person that I can become as a result of this? Like, can I sit still at peace with myself? Can I be more present in my life? Can I really commit to a true mindfulness and meditation practice such that it will transform my life in the ways that so many of the great mystics have promised that it will?

1:44:37What will become of me? Who can I become as a result of that investment? and this is not something I've done perfectly, you know, by any stretch of the imagination, but I would say that I am able to be that person and I am able to hold all of these things that I do more loosely, the podcast, whatever, you know, like these are not that important. You know, what's important is your capacity to give and receive love and show up for the people that you care about and to enjoy your life. And as I begin to build my body back, and restore some relationship with fitness, it's not about like punishing myself or seeing how hard I can go or what crazy thing I can do.

1:45:21It's about like, how can I honor this body that's carried me for 60 years and nourish it through these things that I love that make me feel like me and then share it for the benefit of other people. And that's something I could not have said like a year ago. Yeah. Well, it's been beautiful to see your journey because obviously I've known you for what, five, six years now. And I know from, because obviously Finding Ultra is one of the first books I read alongside Dean's book. So I understand from a point where athleticism is my life, it's my career, it's my profession. So I can't imagine what you had to go through of having that side of your life stopped, stopped entirely because there kind of was nothing you could do about it at the time.

1:46:06And it's been beautiful to like, now you're ripped roll or rich swole. You look amazing, but it's like, I feel like now my experience and conversation with you, you've got part of you back. It's like the whole thing of having something missing. You seem more complete to me, which is a compliment, but also a compliment that you rode out that storm for so many years of not being able to do something that was so important to you, but still giving things out, giving out love, giving out beautiful things and like this platform who you have on, how you treat people. So yeah, I'm appreciative of your journey.

1:46:44Yeah. Thank you. And I would say that the two psychedelic experiences that I had have contributed to that, but they're not solely responsible for it. I don't want anybody to get the misapprehension that you do this thing and then your life changes. And it's like, this is on top of like so much other work that you have to do in your life through all kinds of therapeutic modalities. And it's really about like how you integrate these experiences and translate them into some kind of contrary action that you can build upon. Yeah, the whole point is - It's not the experience itself. I know plenty of people that do this stuff way too much and they're kind of the same person.

1:47:27and I think that our culture has a way too cavalier relationship with them and they're sort of considered benign and they're not benign at all and they're not for everybody so that's my like that's also my like disclaimer about all this stuff I'm not here to evangelize it or say that anybody should or should you know go do this or definitely you should do this I'm on the I'm I'm on the same thing as you. It's just an experience I've done. I would never tell anyone to do anything, to be honest. It's just my experience, some things that have helped me along the way. We're all trying to figure out if there was one stop shop to fix all of our problems, and we'd have figured it out by now.

1:48:05But it's an amalgamation of everything you go through and all the practices you do. What's the one thing that might wake you up in the middle of the night when you're thinking about what you're about to do? like is there any one aspect of it that you're feeling uncertain about or a little bit wary maybe it's like the inviting so many people in because a lot of these things have just been like me and a crew out in the middle of nowhere whereas this is like major cities limit it to just the first 5k yeah you need a handler to make sure you're not caught up in like you know robbie yeah it's like come on you gotta go but like people could watch at any point they they want but But I know how locked in I need to be and focused on this thing.

1:48:48And that is an external thing we haven't experienced before. But what I would say about it that makes me confident is when I ran across the US or Australia, when people have shown up, it's been out of the blue, like not planned. So I'm kind of caught off guard. Whereas with this one, I feel like it's regimented. I feel like it's a beautiful opportunity to connect with people. because there's so many people that message me along the way when I'm doing these things, like asking how they can take part or be a part of it. And it's a very difficult question to answer. Find my tracker and come and see me if you want.

1:49:22But this is like, I get to involve everyone that wants to be involved anywhere in the States. So it should be close to where you are if you want to come out and do this thing. Sometimes it might be two o 'clock in the morning. Sometimes it might be in the middle of the day on a Wednesday, but yeah, I think it's slightly a stress, but how I'm thinking about it is a beautiful opportunity to connect with people, raise more money, hear other stories. And I feel like it will like push me forward to, to be performing at my peak. It's also going to build as you go. Yeah. I remember this happened with the Iron Cowboy, uh, you know, when he started like, cause he was, he opened it up.

1:49:59Like you want to come, you can come. Nobody was coming, you know, even though like this is, I mean, I still can't get my head around. I mean, it's one thing. Marathons are one thing like Ironmans, 50 States in 50 days. It's like so insane to me. It's still so vastly underappreciated what he accomplished. But, you know, it built along the way. So by the time he was, you know, getting near the end, like all kinds of people were coming up and I went for the last day and it was like a rock, it was like a rock concert, you know? So I would expect something similar for you, you know, because more important, like the word will get out.

1:50:33Yeah. The story is going to get shared. And that's a cool energy, you know? Yeah, it lifts you up a lot. Yeah. So I'm excited. More of that, less of the slings and arrows this time around. I mean, they'll be around for sure. But, you know, it's part of it. So whatever. I love you, buddy. I'm so excited to watch this go down. And all things going well, I will see you in New York City for the New York City Marathon. Love you too, brother. Thank you for having me on. Another beautiful conversation. I always feel, I've always feel like lifted up or I've, I've learned something about myself by talking to you, which is, which is a big compliment.

1:51:14Glad to hear that. Before we close it down for good, uh, two things. Um, first, why don't you take us out with a message to the person who is struggling with making a change in their life, who maybe has had fits and starts, but is deflated because for whatever reason, they can't get over the hump and they're not feeling that self-confidence that you seem to have. I would say what you're weighing up is if you don't do this thing, it's going to be way worse than if you start. The hardest thing is often starting, but if you look at more of a bird's eye view, you're struggling now and you're not doing the right things to get over it.

1:51:56The only time to start is right now. And you might not recognize that person from before who was scared, angry, self-loathing. The only way to get through it is start now, do hard things, and you can reinvent yourself in a beautiful way and you can do anything. So second thing, obviously people can follow along on your Instagram, but what is the website where people can engage in the live tracking, find out where you are so they can join you for the 5K run, contribute to the GoFundMe and Stand Up to Cancer, all the good stuff. It's going to be on missionamerica50.org and that will have everything.

1:52:37It's like a HQ website. So live tracker, roots, ways to donate, all the partner information, everything you could think of under one roof. It's a very impressive website and there's been a lot of people working on it. So I'm very grateful to them for that. And for all the people who are lurking on the let's run forums and the Redditors out there, if you're still wringing your hands over what Will did in Australia, you can go to fastestknowntime.com where they have verified that you indeed got the FKT for your transcontinental run across Australia. And they have it backed up with all these files, verifications, Java files, et cetera.

1:53:21Yeah, it's good. You've been acquitted basically in the court of ultra running controversy. Yeah. The highest court of judgment, FKT. There you go. Yeah. If you want to look through it again, be my guest. Right on. And we're going to have to do a part two to this after you finish this thing because I can't imagine the stories that you're going to accumulate along the way here. It's going to be just absolutely insane. Yeah. It's going to be a good one. I look forward to that. But I'm also looking forward to every step along the way. Good. that's the only way you're going to make it right uh wind in your sails uh and enjoy the odyssey and uh hopefully you will be odysseus returning home at some point uh victorious so we'll see yeah time will tell um appreciate you man thanks for sharing today appreciate you too thank you very much peace