Inner Excellence: Jim Murphy On Overcoming Mental Blocks, Mastering The Ego, Success Through Selflessness & The Pillars of Extraordinary Performance

28:22Like people talk a lot about the author and how his life has changed. And yes, my life has changed. Travel is different now. like in 2023 and 2024, I went to 23 countries. And so I was traveling around the world coaching professional Olympic athletes before this. It's just, there's a lot more attention now, but I'm just the messenger. My life is really insignificant. The significant thing is, is this message that selfless is fearless? Is this something that I should consider? Is the, you know, the code of the samurai, this love, wisdom, courage, is that something that we should all think about?

28:58and it's really everything that you've used and shared with the world is so similar to everything in inter-excellence. That's why I'm so excited to be here. The ideas aren't new, but the expression of them is your own. And as I was telling you before we started, like the way that you've been able to synthesize many ancient ideas from different strains of thought into kind of a cohesive message that is very understandable and practical. I think is your gift though. You know, it's not that you came up with these ideas, but the way in which you have arranged them and presented them, I think is really powerful.

29:40But you have to live a life before you're able to understand those truths and translate them for anybody else. Yeah, and that's a good point. So the book came out 16 years ago. Why 16 years until this happened? and this exact version has been out for five years. So why five years? And I think it's because I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to share that. I was too self-centered. That's still my biggest challenge, but I just couldn't, I wouldn't have been able to handle it in the past. It would have been just way too much thinking about myself. Yeah. So you grew up playing all kinds of sports, baseball, football, you were in the Cubs organization.

30:23Right. but an ocular issue kind of derailed that career, right? Yeah. And I think it was a subconscious derailment. My situation growing up was fairly unique with my mom and her history, Japanese history and the lineage there. And then my dad,

30:46he was really against me becoming rich and famous because I thought it would be bad for my character, which I think is probably true. And so as soon as I turned pro, I had this vision problem. And I think it was, cause they couldn't, they never found a reason why. And so I think it was this subconscious mental block that at the time was the most devastating thing in my life. My whole career, my whole identity gone, totally lost. Looking back, I see it was the very best thing for me. Oh, that's interesting. So in other words, you were sparing yourself for something different and perhaps better.

31:20Like without knowing it. On an unconscious level. Yeah. Yeah, God was doing that for me. And I was not happy about it. I was so, I mean, as bitter as you could be, like this is, I'm supposed to be this man who's so successful. And like I've said so many times and thought like, every guy's gonna wanna be Jim Murphy and every girl's gonna wanna be with Jim Murphy and I'm gonna hit home runs and be on the cover of magazines. And so this is the issue I think that so many people have is the story of their lives is so singular. My life should be this way, this version, these should be the circumstances and outcomes.

32:00And this is what holds people back because they're so rigid on, and when unexpected, unwanted things happen, they can't handle it emotionally. And so inter-excellence is about expanding what you believe is possible, continually expanding what you believe is possible, letting go of your story, letting go of who you've been so you can become someone you've never been before. And when we hold on to our past and hold on to our story, then we can't do that. We're storytelling animals. We're all walking around with a story in our head that we believe to be true and are blind to the fact that it was unconsciously crafted based upon the experiences that we've had.

32:41And whether it's positive or negative, it's still a fantasy and it's detached from reality. And in most cases with most people, to your point, it prevents us from having a more expansive understanding of what we're capable of or what's possible. But like unraveling that and figuring out how to tell a new story is a very difficult challenge. And what happened to you is you had to come to the edge of yourself to be able to write a new story, to create a new narrative in your life, right? These new neural pathways, is that right? Yeah, but it was a function of being backed into a corner. Like pain is the ultimate like lever for these sorts of things.

33:26Like short of suffering some form of crisis, whether it's physical or existential, would I have made those changes? It's interesting because, and I say this all the time, like we have the choice to make these changes at any given moment. It's just that it's very difficult to do unless you're pressured into it in some way. And the way I generally think about it is the moment of change is when the pain of your circumstances exceeds the fear of doing something different, right? You have to confront that fear or these fears are intention with each other and which one is winning out is kind of going to dictate how you behave on some level.

34:07It's this discomfort with uncertainty that we have. Like we don't like it and we delude ourselves into believing that we're in control of things. And if something goes wrong, like we didn't do something right. And I think disabusing ourselves of that illusion of control and acknowledging that uncertainty is just, that's just the landscape. Everything is uncertain. It's never gonna change in that regard so that you can detach a little bit and free yourself from self-judgment or all of the unnecessary pain that comes with things not working out the way you would like them to. Yeah, exactly. You know what?

34:45One of the things that's such an important topic, I think now in America, there's so much and around the world, anxiety and fear and tension and so much out of our control. And there's a lot of people that are watching to this now. And I think that have this anxiety and these unknown what's gonna happen. And I think there's some really powerful things that they can do when you're afraid of the future or whether you're a pro athlete or anyone. And there's some questions. Do you want me to share those with you? Yeah, please. Well, the first question is, are you willing to face your fears? And we can get into also, because I went through a very traumatic moment as well.

35:23And I've kind of prayed a lot that myself and people that I love don't have to get to the point where we get to that major trauma to fully surrender, which is the power, right? And the power that you talk about and the power that I talk about that surrender to a power greater than yourself. And so first asking yourself, am I willing to face my fears? And then, am I willing to face any feeling? This is a big one. Because most people are not willing to face any feeling. They're willing to physically do a lot of hard things. But there's some feelings that we're like, no, I'm not going to. If that comes, that's the worst.

36:08I'm not going to be there. I'm gonna run from it, whatever. And, but if you're willing to face any feeling, now you've got some control and some power. So what is the process of doing that? Like summoning the courage to face that? Is there like something that you have learned or divined that is a practice to cultivating that disposition? Well, I can tell you about this experience I had with some pro athletes at a mental block. So when you have a mental block, then you're constantly thinking about it all day long and it could have ended their careers. And so I worked with these pro athletes and when you have this fear, it starts with a feeling.

36:58It's like a panic attack. It starts with a feeling and then it goes into out of control, right? And so the feeling is what we want to, we're going to go look for that feeling. And I got that from Conor McGregor. he talked about when he was first a new pro athlete and how he got into the ring or the octagon and he had all these nerves he's like what is this feeling this is so uncomfortable and then he started to go and look for it he's like now i go into madison square garden and you know i kick butt um and uh so i was like yeah we need to go look for the field we can't run from them we got to look for those feelings that we're afraid of we're because that's our teacher because when you come to the edge of your feelings where you're most uncomfortable that's where you can grow.

37:36And that's when you can become someone you've never been before. And that's the limiter. We come to these feelings. We're like, no, I don't want that feeling. And so are you willing to face those feelings? So I asked them, I want you to, one, you're going to look for that feeling. You're going to embrace it. And the way you're going to do it is say, am I willing to face my fears today? Am I willing to face any feeling? And am I willing to have any feeling, even if it doesn't go away. And then I gave them some mantras, which is a phrase that you repeat over and over in your head to use as a tool if they want.

38:12And in the moment when they're really, really uncomfortable, you can use a mantra. And then some breathing. There's another one that I'll tell you about is mastering the ego. So I think this is such a big part of the rich role what you share with the world and this surrender and mastering the ego because it's such a big part of the 12-step process and one of the things that I well I'll tell you the story first about I had a pro PGA Tour golfer he's in the playoffs and it's a it's a practice round and he's got they're playing a hundred dollars a birdie and so when the other guy makes a birdie you pay him a hundred bucks and so first two holes they both birdie the first two holes now he's down 400 bucks and these are guys that are up and comers and like getting all the attention and he's kind of a little more of a veteran and so he's a little bit like i gotta get these guys and uh hole three he has um a short birdie putt and none of the other guys had a birdie putt and he missed it and he said he was nervous and i said you missed that because of your ego he's like what do you mean i said would you have missed that on your home course playing by yourself he's like no probably not i said well you were thinking about them you really you did not want to miss in front of them And you really wanted to beat them.

39:24It was really this self-conscious concern for self issue, right? And so I said, when I have that, because we all have an ego, I define ego as the part of your mind that's always threatened, always comparing and never satisfied. When I have that, and I love to golf. So say I have a five foot putt and I'm really nervous. You know, I got a great approach shot, one of the fun few ones. and I really want to make it so that you can ask yourself, what do I want more in this moment? To be successful in this moment or to master my ego? Because obviously you want to be successful in the moment, but what do you want more?

40:02Do you want to keep having these moments where you're stressed out and anxious and wondering what people will think? Well, any wise person would say, well, yeah, I do want to be successful here, but what I want even more is not to keep having this anxiety and fear. and so if you want that more then we know well two things no we know that the best you don't know what the best thing for you is outcome wise is it to get what you want or not we never know outcome wise is it the best thing for me rory wins the 2025 masters was that the best thing for him and his family who knows all we know is that he really wanted to and so understanding that we don't know what's best for us outcome wise because that that should help you stay present which is the key.

40:44And then two is to understand that if I miss, if I don't get what I want, now I get a chance to come to the edge of my feelings, to expand what I believe is possible, to master my ego by embracing this moment. So either way you win. Yeah. It's rigged for success. Yeah.

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44:17I mean, first of all, the idea that we don't know what's good for us, you know, we think we do, but we're operating with, you know, limited perceptual abilities when it comes to that. It's the problem of the single story. But it goes back to the ego. Like I know what's best for me and I'm in control of this situation and this is the direction that I'm moving in and anything that interferes with that is considered a threat. And really the whole kind of core foundational thesis of your work in this book is that self-centeredness is the greatest challenge that we face. Like this is the enemy, right?

44:51In the context of a high-performing individual, that is confrontational because on some level, there's a conviction that it's ego that's driving that person forward. It's me, I did this, I can only rely on myself. It's about what I'm capable of doing in this moment and I can't rely, especially in individual sports and things like that. So to say like, listen, you gotta set all that aside because it's actually hindering you. It's not your friend in this regard is a contrarian idea that I suspect with the athletes you work with is a challenge to kind of get them, get their head around. Yeah, and so I believe the most powerful forces in the universe, love, wisdom, and courage, love being the most powerful.

45:41It's completely fearless. And I believe it's the energy that holds the stars in place, spins the earth, grows the grass, this energy, I think that you've been able to connect with our greatest need, our greatest desire, our greatest power, unconditional love, every human. And so since we already know that this is where I get the connection with the, with the person, whether they're a pro athlete or a single mother of four, understanding that their greatest need and desire and power is unconditional love. And so that's where we kind of start. Like, um, say we got someone that's, that's a pro athlete and they're, they're not into any of this love, love you, stuff.

46:18They're just like, like dog, I'm going to the world series. Like enough with that. Just get me there. Yeah. And so, um, I say, look, here's what we're going to do. I want to know when you're playing your best, what is that like? What does it feel like? And, uh, what's going on your body, your mind, your heart, et cetera. Just give me some, um, so take me that last time that when you're at your best, like maybe we can do that with you, Rich, like when you're at your best, like performance, It's like you're called the fittest man in the world. And you have all these - Not at the moment, my friend, keep going.

46:47Five Ironmans in seven days. So like when you're at your best in anything, like what was it like? What did it feel like mentally, emotionally, physically? It's a state in which you feel completely in sync, like mind, body, and spirit are in total alignment and your relationship with time shifts. and it is a, I wouldn't say blissful state, but it is a state of like integrated knowing. I don't know if that's the right way to phrase it, but I don't know that there are words to truly capture it, but when you're in it, you know it. Okay, and so integrated knowing, bliss, this time changing. Can you describe that for me with a couple adjectives?

47:34Like the feeling, just how it feels. Yeah, there's a calmness to it. There's a feeling of connectedness and transcendence with it, I think. Okay, so let's say calm, connected, and transcendent is how you wanna feel when you're at your best. Okay, so what we're gonna do is we're gonna design your life with the habits of thought and action around getting you that feeling more often. Would that be helpful? Absolutely. Okay. And so that's what inner excellence is. And so that calm, connected, transcendent is how I think of love. This love is, and passion and love kind of go together and passion is the willingness to suffer.

48:18And that's something that you've kind of said that you've, one thing that's helped you is that, because swimming is, you know, you're getting up at 4.45 every morning in high school and you've had this history of being able to do that, which is kind of what allowed you to get here. this willingness to suffer and surrender. That combination is incredibly powerful. But it also becomes an Achilles heel at some point because what gets lodged into your brain is that the way forward demands suffering in all cases, right? Whether it's writing a book or preparing for any, it's like, if I'm not suffering, like I'm not getting the best out of me, where the challenge that I'm currently facing and trying to master is how can I navigate these difficult projects and aspects of life, not with this disposition of having to suffer through them in order to feel like I did my best, but instead to do it from a place of love and calm and connectedness.

49:19You know, it's like, these are different fuel sources, right? One is unsustainable and exhausting. and the other one is everlasting. Okay, so we're here in Westlake Village and we are, what, 45 minutes away from the epicenter of fame and obsession in the world, Hollywood. And I think one of the biggest challenges that people face is that this obsession about achievement and why do we get obsessed, especially in North America? I mean, it's the American way, you know, to live your dreams. And so this obsession with achievement can be very problematic, similar to kind of what you just said. You're living in this culture and you're 45 minutes away from the epicenter in the world of this obsession with achievement.

50:05And if you don't have very clear intention and habits and routines of making sure that you're focused on your purpose and how you wanna feel that connected and transcendent feeling, then you're gonna get caught up into this obsession about achievement. And in the book that I just wrote, the best possible life, I talk about the best possible life, which I define as a life filled with deep contentment, joy, and confidence, independent of circumstances. A life filled with love and joy and peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. That life has one foot in joy and one foot in suffering.

50:42And so we want to remember the joy part as well. You've gotten the suffering down pretty good in your life. And so the joy part, part. Now it's really getting into, like you've mentioned also is who am I becoming is very important to you. And so who are you becoming? This is what we want to constantly come back to in our life. And so, because we understanding that you're 45 minutes from this epicenter of this obsession and it can, you can easily drift and every day drift towards, okay, what matters is my achieving, getting these things, this next project done, this book, et cetera. Whereas Because what is like Victor Frankl says, what does the world expect from you?

51:25Not what do I want from the world? When I reflect on that, I think about my primary operating system as it has always been, which is that I'm fundamentally undeserving of love. And the only way that I can get it and engender my life with it is to distinguish myself and go out and do things in the world, right? So any threat to that. That's amazing awareness, by the way. Yeah, but it doesn't, the self-awareness will avail you nothing. You know what I mean? It's a huge start, it's a huge start. And my capacity for suffering is a very good vehicle for being able to do things in the world, right? And suffering sort of implies that there's an earning piece to it, like you have to earn it.

52:14Like, whereas love is more about something you're fundamentally entitled to, right? Like if you're coming from a place of love and expansiveness, et cetera. And behind that is the notion that like, you don't have to earn it, like you already are it, right? That's right. And you don't even have to find it. You just have to like remember it or like locate it within yourself. Can we talk about love for a second? Mm-hmm. Okay, you have four kids. Yeah. What do you want most for them and for Julie? I want them to experience love in their life. I want them to, you know, the standard answer is like, I want them to be happy, right?

52:53But what do I really want for them? I want them to feel - So happiness, I define as a positive temporary feeling based on what's happening. So I can go tell them a joke after this if that's what you want for them. But you want much more than that. No, of course. Which I think is joy, which is a deep sense of wellbeing, closer to anyway. What I define as a deep sense of wellbeing and freedom and gratitude, this inner buoyancy independent of circumstances. Yes, yes. You gonna help me out there? Okay, yes, yeah. And so this is what you want. I mean, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I think this is kind of what you're saying.

53:26Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Like this is the mountain that I'm trying to climb right now. Jim, you're here at the perfect moment for me. And I've told this story before, so the audience might be bored of it, but I'm gonna tell you so you know it. I'm really trying to overcome this relationship that I have, this transactional relationship that I have with love. And this was precipitated, like it's sort of the next mountain to climb in like my growth journey, I suppose. But it was really underscored by this visit that my wife and I made with the Dalai Lama this past year. we went and spent two days with him with a group of people amazing and essentially you know i won't belabor the story but every question that was posited to him resulted in a version of the same answer which is the answer is always love unconditional love and if you don't know what i'm talking about or you you struggle to um connect with the fullness of of of what i'm what what I mean by that, all you have to do is imagine a mother's unconditional love for its child.

54:40And that was very triggering for me because I have a challenging relationship with my own mother. And so I have chosen to - You can switch it to love for your kids. So, well, yes, I'm doing that. I think I'm pretty good at that piece of it, but I'm trying to look at this, of course, like as an opportunity, Like these are the feelings I don't wanna face, right? So of course this is the teachable moment. This is where all the growth can happen. And what happens if I move towards that discomfort and try to deconstruct like what was so upsetting about that for me and what can I do to heal that so that I can feel the full capacity of love and of course give it in return and change my relationship with not just what I do, but who I am.

55:32Because I think the cost of being so achievement oriented is that it puts blinders on such that you're missing out on the fullness piece of life. And I think why you're here and what's most interesting about your book is the fact that it upends this notion that high performance and living a fulfilling life are intention with each other. And your thesis is basically that these things are aligned, like they're one in the same. It's not, you know, the idea that like high performance, that's gonna come at a cost. Like if you're, you know, if you wanna do a great thing in the world, like you're gonna have to sacrifice and other people are probably gonna have to pay for it a little bit.

56:14And you're gonna short circuit your ability to enjoy your life in other ways. And you're saying quite the opposite, which is like, no, like high performance is a consequence of pursuing a fulfilling life by, you know, doing the things that are like inviting those experiences in your life. Becoming wholehearted. Yeah. That wasn't a question. I don't know what to... Respond. No, that's... I love this idea of love and something I hope that we can talk about after the show in your life. But if we wanna think about kind of getting back to the pro athlete, that's like, you know, look, bro, I just wanna win.

56:54I really wanna get into how he wants to feel and what he wants most and help him get there so we can pursue that. It's like letting go of this little lollipop and pursuing the whole candy store, which is absolute fullness of life, to feel fully alive, which is what I want for you. And I think part of that is to pursue, to really think about what do I want most in my life? And to help you think about that, what do I want most for my kids? And because you didn't mention that I really want them to have a lot of money, or I really want to write three more books so they can put it on their bookshelf.

57:29You mentioned something that was more interior, right? Sure. And so if that's what you want most of your kids, you can absolutely work on that and help them get it. And that's gonna be where you do this work on this love and understand this is what I want most. I wanna be able to be filled with this and share it with my family in the world. But the best way to teach them that is to live it myself, right? Like on some level, kids will model their lives, not based upon what you say, but how you behave. And unless I'm willing to look at this and confront it and overcome it, I will remain captured by it.

58:10And I will like perpetuate another generational cycle of trauma on some level. Yeah, you're so talented. It's so easy. The default is likely, oh, I'm just gonna go achieve more. I'll write another book. I'll do more, get more into my pocket. I'll do all these things because it's easy and really good at it. That's the default and understand. Well, being more successful, is that gonna help me get what I want most from my family. Of course not. Like I've done enough to be well advised that another like brass ring is not really, that means nice, but it's like, it's not gonna fundamentally change anything about my life.

58:45So this is the reminder that you need each day when you start to get drift into this achievement is like, okay, what's my purpose and how do I stay focused on that?

58:57It's the same thing that I battle every day. We live in this world that's obsessed with outcomes. I have a heart that has my own fears and dreams and hopes. And I live in this world that's constantly pulling me off track and reacting to things, circumstances. And so I want to be more of this person that is so filled with love, wisdom, and courage that when the unexpected unwanted comes, I'm not attached to that story that things have to be that way. I wanna be having this no needs sort of life. Going back in your story after the baseball career, correct me if like, this is the narrative that I've heard.

59:43I'm sure it's only loosely true on some level, but you spent, you were like driving a FedEx truck, you coached high school baseball, you were a personal trainer for a while. You're kind of bouncing around like in the, liminal space of like not knowing what you were doing or what your life was gonna be about. But ultimately you had some awareness that you needed clarity and you did this radical thing where you basically just packed up and like moved to the Sonora Desert to live in solitude essentially for like two years or something like that. So I wanna understand the motivation behind that and the insights that you gleaned from that experience.

1:00:27Yeah, thanks for asking. So my whole life, I thought I was gonna be a superstar when I was little, 17 years old. What are you gonna be? I'm gonna be a professional athlete. I'm gonna play in the NFL. And so when I got - You must have been a pain in the ass as a kid. Yeah, I remember my uncle saying, Jimmy, very, very few people. He kept telling me, Jimmy, very, very few people. That's probably not gonna have. Yeah, and so when I got drafted by the Cubs, it was a dream come true, but also there's this fear of losing it because it was my identity. And obviously I didn't have full control over it.

1:00:56And, you know, I played five years in the minor leagues and a year of college football. And then I get into coaching, which I, you know, I had no interest in coaching, but I got asked to coach, I'm driving a truck for FedEx, got asked to coach O'Day High School, inner city all boys school, the JV. And I just never thought of it. I didn't know if it would be fun or if I could help anybody. And we went undefeated. And so I was like, oh, okay. And so this kind of obsessive personality, I think kind of maybe similar to yours is like, okay, I coached one year of JV high school. How do I coach the Yankees and win the World Series?

1:01:30That's what I'm going to do next. So I came up with this long plan of I'm going to get a master's in phys ed so I can pay the bills, coach the high school team, then get a job in college, do the same thing and win a championship, by the way, and then get a job in college, win the national championship and then get a job in the pros and work my way up. And so I go to the University of British Columbia. I play football there, start a baseball team there, and I get my master's in coaching science. And that was actually my first book. So my first book was Dugout Wisdom, 10 Principles of Championship Teams.

1:02:00I met this life coach and he said, let's go for a job in pro baseball right out of grad school by getting to know the people that can hire you. So I sent a snail mail letter, you know, with a stamp and an envelope to every major league team, every GM and field manager saying, I'm studying how to build a championship team. I'd like to interview you for it. So I did 39 interviews in person and I get a job at the Texas Rangers two weeks after graduation. So we skipped the high school college route. So dream come true. Now I'm somebody again. I was Jim Murphy, pro baseball player. I'm somebody, lose it.

1:02:27I'm nobody. Jim Murphy now has coached Texas Rangers. I'm somebody again. And then I quit six months later in tears. All of that work, the master's degree, everything just to get this job and gone. because it just wasn't a good fit. And now looking back, I thought at the time I'm a total failure, but looking back, I can see God was like, I've got way bigger things for you, Jim, and you're going to be held back here. At the time I thought it was like, you know, I'm just a loser. Like, why can't I do this? And there was some things, like they weren't allowing me to coach. Like they wanted me to just put in my time and I really want to do things.

1:03:07And they're like, no, you don't say anything. Really just don't say anything when I ask you. And there's other issues that happen. But really the main picture is understanding that I had one singular story. This has to be, I'm going to be the best coach ever. I'm going to go to the World Series and this is my life. And it has to happen that way. And it didn't. And then I was devastated like a train wreck. And not knowing that this was part of my training to bring me here today with you. And so I lose, like I'm driving home in tears from Savannah, Georgia, assistant coach for the Savannah Sand Nets, now the Savannah Bananas.

1:03:44And I get a call from Major League Baseball several months later saying, would you be interested in coaching South Africa being their hitting coach for the 2000 Olympics trials? And I fly to Johannesburg. Our bat boy's living in the tool shed of our baseball field with his mother and little brother. I'd never seen poverty like this before. His name was Gifton Gupe, becomes amazing kid, becomes the first African born player ever to play in the big leagues. and we win the Olympic trials. We go to the Olympics in Sydney, incredible experience, get to march in opening ceremonies. I get to meet Nelson Mandela.

1:04:20We have one of the biggest upset victories in Olympic baseball history. It was amazing. I'm still friends with that group 25 years later. And so, but now what do I do next? I have this obsessive personality. I wanna be, I'm supposed to live an amazing life. What's the best? But I'd already kind of burned the bridge in pro baseball. So now what? I didn't know. I go back to being a personal trainer, which it was great. Had clients and loved it. And I had a good life in Vancouver, BC. But I felt like I realized as a personal trainer, these people come to me for losing weight or whatever, but I'm like, they need a lot more than losing weight and they need really inner help.

1:05:01And as a personal trainer, you kind of become their counselor or their best friend. You know, you're really a good, a good trainers really wants to help them. And so I was doing that for a couple of years and just like, I wanna make a bigger difference. And then I got a call from my teammate in pro baseball, Ricky Scruggs. He's in Arizona, starting a baseball academy in Tucson. He said, can you come down for the launch? And I was like, this was the timing that God set up. I was like, why don't we leave this life behind and go live a life of solitude in the desert and figure out what you're gonna do with your life.

1:05:36I give away over half my possessions, including my TV. This is before streaming. So I went to go live this life of solitude. And I just didn't really, I didn't have a clear purpose. I had no identity. I was like, who am I? I don't even know what's anything like this. And I wanted to find something that I could devote my life to, something that I was willing to die for. I didn't have anything like that. So I go to the desert. I don't know. All I knew was I can't have my TV because I'm going to go there. if I have a TV, I'm just going to be lonely and waste my time. So all I knew is I just, I can't bring my TV.

1:06:09And so it was lonely. And one of my first New Year's, I'm in this empty house and I go outside, I hear a noise. I go outside, I'm writing in my journal and I see fireworks. And that's when I found out it was New Year's Eve. I didn't know what day it was. Wow. Every day was the same, except for Sundays I go to church. And so it was a lonely time. and when I was there, I decided to become a personal coach to pro baseball players and teach them how to have peace and confidence under pressure. And I thought about being a college coach, but I talked to Andy Lopez, head coach at Arizona, and he said, the best part of my job is the smallest part, which is the coaching.

1:06:49I was like, okay, not doing that. And then I came up with this new idea. Well, what if you became a personal coach to them? I'd never heard of anyone doing it. I just thought, I'm going to try that. And my first two athletes do amazing. So then I thought, okay, I'm going to put together a little manual on how to have peace and confidence under pressure for my next client. So I started to work on that. I call up a sports psychologist. And, you know, I'd done all these interviews with Major League Baseball managers and GMs on how to build a championship team. And so I thought, I'm going to call up some sports psychologists and do some more interviews.

1:07:19And I'm going to ask them a couple questions. One is, how can a Major League Baseball in Game 7 of the World Series, bottom of the ninth, full count, bases loaded, two out, how can that guy, down by one, how can he have peace and confidence under that pressure? And similarly, how can an Olympic athlete train for four years for an event that may last less than a minute? How can he have peace and confidence or she in that moment? And I didn't get the answers that I wanted. So I called in another and another and another. And I spent five years full-time writing and researching that question. And that becomes this book.

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1:09:30I'm in the process of recovering from pretty major surgery, and this has left me thinking a lot about legacy, the relationship between what we do now and what we're actually leaving behind for future generations. Well, my friend RJ, who founded and runs Rivian, thinks about this constantly. Sure, he builds electric vehicles for all kinds of adventures and amazing ones at that. His mission, however, is way bigger than that. A mission that is informed by asking a pretty deep question, which is, how do we keep the world adventurous forever? Adventure is only possible with a thriving planet. You can't have one without the other.

1:10:15Sustainability and adventure, these are not opposing forces. They're simpatico, their partners. Every generation deserves wild places to roam, to climb higher, to be transformed by the journey. But that only happens if we're designing for a future where exploration doesn't come at the expense of nature, but actually inspires us to protect it. And it's for all these reasons that I'm just so thrilled and honored to join forces with Rivian, to partner with them in support of building the momentum they have already created to move toward a more optimistic, regenerative future.

1:10:57That's an amazing thing. The peace, the quiet, the solitude, giving you the space to glean the clarity about not just what you wanted to do with your life, but also what mattered most in the context of the, the things that you were interested in, right? Like, do I really wanna be a coach? Is that really where it's at? It's the, it's what's behind, it's like the coach behind the coach, like what's beneath the surface here that makes the most difference in terms of performance and living a fulfilling life. And short of, having gone, like Kung Fu wandering out, you know, wandering, relinquishing your possessions and, you know, kind of like wandering off into the distance.

1:11:45Like, I don't know that you could have arrived at that. Yeah, it was what I had to go through to come to. And I think similar to what you had to go through. And that's what I said earlier is that I pray that my friends don't have to go through what I went through to come to this point where they surrender to a power greater than themselves and have a clear purpose for their lives. The problem is if you're really talented, it's hard to surrender. The more you have money, possessions, achievements, looks, the harder it is to surrender. Things need to get stripped away a little bit before willingness descends.

1:12:18That's right. This is what happened to both of us. Our lives got stripped away because I didn't tell you about the trauma that happened to me after the book came out. Which was what happened. So five years full-time writing and researching this book. I didn't go to the desert to write a book. I just went there, like I said, to figure out what to do with my life. And so I ended up getting a New York City literary agent, thank you, Rita, and a major publisher, McGraw-Hill. It gets into Barnes and Noble, which is kind of a dream for new authors and in bookstores around the world. So this is 2009 December.

1:12:55And you'd think I'd be like, it worked, it happened, yes. But instead, the opposite happened to me. I almost had a mental breakdown. And this is no surprise as I look back because our greatest need, we're created for relationship, for love. It's our greatest need. And I isolated myself for five years. And I mean, I wasn't like in a teepee somewhere. I was in the edge of town. I lived in the baseball academy for a couple of months with no shower, but I was not like going to social events and I was just really trying to have this life of solitude. And so, what's the greatest punishment in prison?

1:13:36It's no contact with people. There's no relationships. You're on your own. And so prisons have understood that our greatest need is for relationship and our greatest punishment is to take that away. And so I kind of went on my own for five years, essentially. And writing a book about how important experiences and relationships are. Yes, yes. Yes, exactly. And so I had to go through this to write the book. And so five years, full-time writing research, I get the books in bookstores, but I'm in downtown Denver. I'm speaking to some high schools and I'm having a mental breakdown, about to. And I was thinking, okay, I spent my life savings and I went$90 ,000 in debt.

1:14:24And those five years of writing the book, I don't know what my income was, but it was below minimum wage. I was not making much money. And so I'm going into a lot of debt. And I'm thinking, okay, you're$90 ,000 in debt. You have no money to hire someone to market the book. You don't know how to do marketing and you don't like promoting yourself. This is not a good marketing plan. If no one hears about the book, no one will buy the book. If no one buys the book, Barnes & Noble will pull it off the shelves. And this could happen in just a few weeks. Five years, your life savings, everything, down the drain if this happens and I couldn't see how it was not going to happen.

1:15:00I had that singular, this is how it has to be. And so I was like, if no one buys the book and they pull it off the shelves, you'll be a total failure. And now I wrote the book so I could coach pro athletes. Well, no pro athlete's going to hire you to coach them because you're a failure. That'd be stupid. So you're going to have to get a regular job. But in 2009, the economy and recession, no one's hiring failures not 7-Eleven corner mini mart Starbucks you're not going to get a job anywhere you're going to die alone in the street and so that was my mind spinning out of control spiraling and I had no when you don't have anyone there the community around you is so crucial to develop yourself and become who you want to become and I didn't have anyone I didn't have people around me I had a few friends but that was it and so um but what I did have is one guy that I called Ricky Scruggs.

1:15:53And I said, tell me what to do. And he said, find a homeless person and help him. And so I look around the corner, downtown Denver is this guy with a grocery cart full of stuff, holy shoes, playing a full-size harp. You know, very unique situation. I go and sit down next to him. I listened to him play this beautiful music. I look in my wallet and I had a hundred dollars, which means I must've taken a cash advance because I, my, my credit cards were mostly maxed out and I had no money. And so for some reason I had the cash advance, that money in my wallet. So I took the a hundred dollars out. I put it in his bag and I leave to go to run, go back to where I stand and run on the treadmill so I can just breathe, get through the day, come back to that same area.

1:16:36And I'm sitting in the Starbucks. I can't function, like can't do anything. I'm just trying to wait for the day to get in over so much anxiety. And the, the, homeless guy walks in and he walks past me, stops in his tracks, turns around and says, are you the guy that gave me that money? And I said, yes. And he said, thank you so much for caring for me. No one's cared for me like that before. And he leaves and he comes back with a box of chocolates and a bracelet that he made and a card. And he gives all three to me. And when I was writing that book, I took it to my friend Jennifer from church. And I said, can you make sure this lines up with the Bible?

1:17:13I want to make sure this is filled with deep wisdom and there's no errors. She looks at the book and says, have you ever heard of the word Zoe? It's a Greek word and it's in the Bible a lot. It means absolute fullness of life. And that's what Jesus said he came to do to bring you fullness of life. And she said, I think that's what your book is about. And I said, yes, that's absolutely what my book is about. My whole life of obsessed about being rich and famous and being so successful when what I've always really wanted was to feel fully alive. I just didn't know it. So I started to orient my book around the pursuit of this Zoe life, fullness of life and let everything else be added to you.

1:17:51You become better at everything else and you may not get it, but it doesn't matter because you're pursuing this best possible life. And so I'm in the Starbucks. I open up this guy's card, this homeless harpist, and it said, thank you so much for caring for me. no one's cared for me like that before love zoe the homeless harpist name was zoe wow i'm like your name is zoe and because i was in this kind of a daze i'm like what and he's like yeah i go do you know what your name means he said no i said it means absolute fullness of life i've been studying that for five years i just wrote a book about it so i wrote dear zoe thank you so much for sharing your beautiful music with me today you don't know what that means to me love jim i give him the book.

1:18:31I never see him again. So that's February, 2010. And that's when my life started to change. Six weeks later, April 1st, 2010, the day I'll never forget. So now it's about 15 years ago. Um, I, uh, you know, I have all this anxiety, right? And, uh, I walk into, I go to a friend of a friend's house. I mean, I go to a friend's house and he's really having a really hard time in his life. And I go to support him, knock on the door. I still remember what he's wearing. And, uh, um, he says, I say, Hey, Nick, how's it going? He's like, Jim, let's go to my friend's house. And so I'm like, okay, whatever you want to do.

1:19:07So we go to his friend's house, this Iranian guy. And I walk in and he's cooking dinner at 10 AM. And, uh, um, he starts to tell me about my life, but I never met him before. Like this prophetic weird thing. And, uh, he's like, you're, you're banging your head against the wall and you're not getting anywhere. And you're always obsessed about some goal. And I'm like, how does this guy know about me? This is exactly how I feel. And then this gal in the house, Jamie, I'd never met her. She walks over and she drew a picture of a kite, hands it to me and says, what's wrong with this picture? And I said, well, your kite doesn't have a string.

1:19:41And she said, yeah, that kite is you. A slight breeze will blow you away. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's exactly how I feel. This is crazy. And so they said, can we pray for you? And so my personal philosophy is always accept free prayer. So they pray for me. They said, you should come to our Bible study tonight. I go to the Bible study that night. And I'll never forget that night. I felt God saying, there's nothing you've ever done or could ever do would change how much I love you. God, as I understood him, says this to me. And I felt like I had a million things to do, the weight of the world on my shoulders.

1:20:18It all had to be done yesterday and I didn't know how to do it. And it all fell off that night. This extreme anxiety to extreme pieces at night, I'll never forget, April 1st, 2010. And so that night I said, God, I'll surrender this 12-step start. I was like, I'll surrender. Just tell me what to do with my life. I'll do whatever you want. And like I said, if you have a lot of skills and talents and money and possessions and achievements, it's hard to surrender. But I feel like I had nothing. And that's where I had to come to, to be able to surrender. And so I say that prayer. And then that's when everything started to get a little crazy.

1:20:57Wow. That's an incredible story. There's a little more. Can I tell you this? Yeah, continue. We've got about two more minutes of the story. Keep going. A year later, I'm in my friend's house in North Vancouver and I'm about to walk out. So in about a year and a half period, there's three or four times total strangers tell me, God wanted me to tell you this. And it never happened to me before or after just this one year and a half period. And so it's kind of strange, right? And so a year and a half later, summer of 2011 in my friend's house about to leave. His mom calls on Skype from India and we're in North Vancouver, BC.

1:21:33And I said, oh, tell her I said hello as I'm walking out the door. She says, oh, Jim's there. My friend wants to talk to Jim. I was like, okay. So I sit in front of the laptop, lady had never seen me before, other side of the world. She said, God wanted me to tell you a couple of things. and I was like okay she said God everything that you've been going through has been training for you God's going to bring people from all over the world to work with you it's going to happen soon he's going to bless you and it's good and you're going to know it's from God it was very specific and I'd never had the stranger tell me anything very specific about what's going to happen in my life like that.

1:22:10A couple of weeks later, I'm sleeping alone in my house and I hear a voice and it said, Jim, things are going to happen faster. Are you ready? And I assumed it was God because I live alone. So I was like, yes, God, I'm ready. And my alarm goes off right away. I was like, oh, maybe he's serious because my eyes were half, my clothes and I was half awake. And then a couple of weeks later, that's when everything started. Jude O 'Reilly, caddy in Dublin, Ireland contacts me and says, Hey, I read into excellence. Can you talk to my boss? He really could use your help. His boss was a golfer in Sweden named Henrik Stenson.

1:22:45I fly out there to work with Henrik a couple of weeks later, get a call from Tiger's coach, Sean Foley. I read into excellence. Can you talk to one of my clients? I fly out to California. I think it was the Chevron event meet with Sean and Hunter Mahan. A few weeks after that, I get a call from the CEO of Yum Brands, which is Taco Bell KFC Pizza Hut. I read Inter Excellence. I'd like to work with you. He sends the book to executives in Europe. I start to work with some of them. One of them, I said, hey, you should come to Vancouver and do an Inter Excellence retreat. He agrees to do it. Then I think, okay, now what is an Inter Excellence retreat?

1:23:20I didn't tell him I hadn't done one before. So I put together this retreat. He does it. He's like, this is extraordinary. Can you bring the same retreat to my team in Europe, my leadership team? I fly out to Europe. I do this Inter Excellence retreat. and in the retreat, you clarify your life purpose and you learn inter-excellence principles. And it was really one of the best weeks of my life, just so alive. And I'm still friends with the, it was the head of KFC Spain, KFC Germany, KFC Netherlands and me and I'd never done a corporate retreat and I was so nervous, but God totally blessed it. And it was an extraordinary experience.

1:23:57And so Henrik goes on to win the FedEx Cup a year and a half later. Hunter Mahan wins a PGA Tour event within several months, wins the world championship, Matt's played several months after that. I've been coaching professional athletes and Olympic athletes around the world ever since and executives and doing these retreats. And now I get to be in the Rich Roll podcast. So what do you make of all of that? Like if you have to distill that down into some kind of message that you were given or a message to somebody who's watching or listening to this, what do you want people to extract from that story?

1:24:30There is a God who created the universe. I mean, there's three, I was talking to a friend who was an agnostic. There's really three options. There's no God, there's multiple gods, or there's one God. And I think it's really the most important thing you'll ever do is ask yourself, well, what is it? And think deeply about it. And the God that I believe in, I wanted to find out about because step three of the 12 steps asks you to surrender your life and will to God as you understand him. And so the God I believe in is filled with unconditional love and wants us all to live with absolute fullness of life.

1:25:01And that's why he sent his son for us to live that life.

1:25:07And I had this obsession with this life that I thought was the best possible life. And it was, God had something far better for me, but I was trying to push a square peg into a round hole. And I didn't know it. I just kept pushing and pushing. And like you talk about so much is this alignment and spiritual growth. And that's what inter-excellence is. It's like, look, there is an energy that grows the grass and spins the earth and holds the stars in place. This energy, call him God, I call it the creator of the universe, but there is an energy that we can all connect with. And it's this energy of love and you, but you have to surrender your little power, your little vision.

1:25:49And when I say you, I mean me and all humans for the power of the universe. That's what we all can do. And that's what's available to everybody. Beautifully put. What I make of that is basically the idea that if you think you're in control of your life or you're driving the train from a place of ego and self-will, it's not really gonna work out. And if you wanna chance at a bigger life, a life that perhaps you can't even imagine for yourself, you're going to have to surrender that self-will to a power greater than yourself. And until you do that, you're gonna be on some kind of hamster wheel that may go someplace, but even if you get there, isn't gonna be what you thought it was.

1:26:43It's not gonna give you that feeling that you always thought that it would. And in your case, you were somebody who already had a rich relationship with God, but living your life based on faith on some level. On some level, right? We're all human. So here's the thing, but you're still that kid that like confident, perhaps a little bit cocky kid who's like, I'm destined for greatness and this is the way it's gonna work out. And I'm gonna make it happen. Like this is what we're doing. And you're so attached to this. You're so attached that you're gonna be someone and this is what it's gonna look like.

1:27:22even after writing this book about how that's not really the way to be. And God, higher power, the universe, whatever you wanna call it, is just not gonna let you have that. Like there's no way that this guy who's written this book that's full of wisdom is gonna, I'm not gonna let him go out into the world and talk about it because he's not actually living it, right? And until he does, he's benched, right? Yes, yes. And you had to go through what you went through until you finally were willing to let it all go. And surrender is a very loaded word for a lot of people. It's associated with giving up or throwing in the towel.

1:28:06But it's really this courageous act of trust where you say, I'm not in control here. There's something else going on here. and I am going to trust that I will be guided, which is incredibly threatening for anyone who has been driving their own train their entire life. But not only is it this incredibly cathartic thing that releases all this baggage and all this pressure and allows you to kind of navigate through life more freely, it opens you up for the miracle that you can't see. And it's like, you had to burn in the fire to be the, to be the Phoenix so that you could rise. And it's like, you had to learn that lesson before you could go and do the things that you're doing now, because you would not have been a worthy steward of the message because you weren't walking the talk.

1:28:59Yes, exactly. And I think like you said, the point so well, surrender is not a word that, that Western culture is really likes to use, but really is the most powerful thing that someone can do. And so you can think about it as like, say, an alcoholic surrendering the keys to someone who's sober. It's the most, definitely the wisest thing that you can do. It's the sunflower surrendering to the sun. It's the little lollipop for the whole candy store. That's what we're talking about. We're all just walking around with our space helmets on, you know, thinking we know what's going on, you know, and just bumping into walls all over the place.

1:29:38That's why humility is so crucial and accurate view of self. Yeah, and humility is best when earned the hard way, I think, right? Like when you've been ground down so that you can really honestly inhabit it. And that's the energy that you give off. Like the humility that you have is a very real thing. And anybody who spends five seconds with you can feel it coming off of you. You know, there's a guy that I listened to a lot now, Tyler Staten and over at Bridgetown. And I'm telling everyone about him because I think his message is so powerful. And he had stage four cancer in his early 30s. And I think that's why he's so powerful because of that.

1:30:24Because that forced him to do what you've done. He's had to let go of every idea of what he thought his life would be. Yeah, and surrender to this power greater than himself and have a sense of real accuracy about my life is very fragile. I could lose at any moment. and understanding that that's true every single day, waking up with that understanding. And so to live it fully. If somebody has been defining success in a traditional way their entire life and has been successful as a result of that or as a by-product on some level of that, how do you disabuse people of that and redefine success for them?

1:31:07And what is that redefinition? Yeah, so we have four daily goals that help you redefine success on a daily basis. But it's really what I do in the retreats and with clients is help them take these steps to really look at what do I want most in my life? And that's like, we don't want millions of dollars or millions of followers for that itself. We want what we think it'll bring us. And in this book and in Best Possible Life, I talk about this question of what would you rather have? a$10 million house on the water paid off? Or would you rather live in an apartment, paycheck to paycheck, no savings the rest of your life, but be guaranteed amazing experiences, deep enriching relationships filled with love, joy, peace every single day your whole life?

1:31:57Which would you rather have? And I know for my life, it's most of my life, it's I don't have to think about it. I'll take the house. until I had a few experiences that drove me to this traumatic surrender. Then I started to really think about, well, what do I really want most? Because if you never had anxiety, why do you want peace? You need to experience the pain, like you said, to really make these changes in your life. And so that's what inner excellence is. Say, hey, let's find out what you want most and let's go for that directly. The house, the car, the vacation home, the promotion, whatever it is, we confuse these things for the things we really want.

1:32:44Like the reason we want them, it's about status or a sense of security, but beneath all of that, it's like, well, why do you want status? So that you're loved and appreciated. And why do you want security? because you have some fear, like you have a discomfort with uncertainty, right? That will never be resolved, no matter how big your house is or how much money is in your bank account, right? So essentially the message is like sidestep all of those distractions because you can meet all of those needs in a cost-free way if you change your mindset and your behavior. Yeah, it's like we need a GPS because we're constantly getting like a 747 is constantly off track going from Seattle to San Diego and it just constantly brings it back on track with the GPS.

1:33:35That's what we need because we live in this culture that's obsessed about these superficial transactions and we need this GPS to constantly bring us back. So we need to set up our environment that's very intentional of what we see and interact with every day. That's moving us towards what's lasting and permanent instead of the temporary and transactional. Mm-hmm, so a lot of this has to do with retraining the mind and mindset. You talk about the monkey mind and the critical mind, the negative self-talk, the ego, like all of these things are interference that derail our best selves. But if you have a lifetime of lambasting yourself in your own mind and have never known anything different than that, How do you begin to untangle that knot and get people to develop a better story about who they are and what they're capable of?

1:34:32Yeah, there's a couple of things that I think about. And I think about actually inter-excellence disciplines. We're coming out with an inter-excellence workbook here next year and they'll have the disciplines in there. But they wanna simplify your life. So anxiety and when you talk about someone who's has a lot of negative thoughts and beating themselves up, that's really tied to too many thoughts and anxiety. And so we need to really simplify life down, really in my mind to one sentence. Like for example, my life purpose is to share God's love, wisdom, and courage with athletes and leaders around the world, but with everybody, but that's kind of that little niche.

1:35:09And so simplify your life. And then, because we just have way too much coming at us, too much information, too much negativity, we need to really orient your life, your environment, your people around what's most important to you, how you want to live and feel, who you want to become. And we're all walking into, in my opinion, either love or fear, some version of love or fear. We're walking in gratitude or entitlement, this expressive creative creativity or this self-conscious, self-protective energy. And so one of the things that's important is doing hard things making sure your life is is um this now we're getting into the suffering part which you've you've mastered um is depriving the senses deprives or you can say uh um depriving the appetites it's kind of this this i'm no expert on asceticism, but this ascetic ideal is, we just have too much coming at us in general.

1:36:19That's why this anxiety, there's too much information, too many thoughts. We need to really narrow it down and not be constantly giving into the, because the problem with the addiction is things that prevent our growth. And the phone is something that really can prevent your growth and get the dopamine hits from constantly reaching for the phone. And so that's where we, when we regularly deprive the appetites, like reaching for the phone or, you know, fasting and things like that, then we can start to get a little more clarity. How do you counsel professional athletes on that? Like these are people who are getting just an insane amount of attention.

1:36:59They're getting paid a ridiculous amount of money. And so the allure of all of these material things that are out there and available to them make the asceticism aspect of this like a lot more difficult than it would even for a normal person. Yeah, in fact, on the way here, driving here, I was talking to a major league basketball player about this. I said, one of the things that's important for you, I said, your pro baseball player is immersed in this culture like 12 hours a day, every day, even on your days off, you're with your coworkers. And this is obsession with results and outcomes. And so what is important for you is to find how can I spend time every day with zero thoughts on baseball?

1:37:53Ideally, zero thoughts at all. um like for example um if you're in a cold plunge you're probably not self-conscious you know what are people thinking about me and uh am i gonna get a hit tonight you're just like trying to get through it right and so um getting into your your uh mixing into your life regular ways to uh clear your mind, renew the mind, and stop thinking about the to-do list. Meditation, breathing exercises, you talk about visualization. Yeah, part of the 12 steps that you do. The big one though, where the intersection with the 12 steps is really most meaningful, it has to do with the story that you just told, where you got some of the only money that you had and you went and you gave it to this guy, right?

1:38:49On the advice of someone who said like, you need to do something for somebody else. This is like core to recovery in that service is the ultimate antidote to self-obsession and self-obsession being the real like infection that you're trying to cure people of on this path towards inner excellence, like developing a service minded approach to life where you're entering situations, looking for what you can contribute and what you can give rather than what you're going to extract from it to garnish your ego. In my experience, this is the ultimate, I hate the word life hack, but honestly, we're all self-obsessed from time to time.

1:39:38And we're caught up in our own narrative about what's happening or what's not happening. And this guy did that and I have too much to do. and to just get, if you wanna really get out of yourself, just, it doesn't have to be going to a soup kitchen, like you pick up the phone and you call someone who you know is having a hard time or you just make yourself available to somebody who could benefit from your open heartedness, even if it's just a small gesture. These are the things that I think are the things that move the needle the most in disabusing ourselves of our ego and our story and all of the things that we think are benefiting us but are actually our biggest Achilles heels.

1:40:22Yeah, for sure. And one thing that you can do, it may remind me of when you're talking about that and serving is there's gonna be somebody who's listening to this who has a friend that's gonna be moving soon. When you help someone move and you do it joyfully and stay to the very end and don't ask for a single thing and don't act like it's a big chore, that is something that friend will always remember. It's so powerful. When you bend over backwards to help someone else out, it really helps you out. The other thing I was gonna say about what you just said that's so powerful is serving in secret.

1:40:59I think John Ortberg talks about this. When you serve in secret, it frees yourself from self-consciousness, frees yourself from what are people thinking about me? This unconditional love, When you give this love, it really empowers you every time you do it. It's something that we misinterpret as a sacrifice or some kind of like martyrdom or something like that. But the truth is like, if you wanna feel good, this is the way to do it. It will make you feel more connected to other people. Joy comes from love. All of this, right. So it isn't, yeah, it's an act of love, right? And you're like, this is an imposition.

1:41:35This is a distraction, you know, it's annoying or whatever. and then it gives you all the things that you're thinking you're gonna get by doing all the things that are, you know, causing your busy life on the other side. Yes, exactly. Okay, so if I get promoted and I get a million followers, I get a million dollars or win a gold medal, then I'm gonna have this joy. If I go help my friend move, I'm gonna have joy. I know. No, I gotta go for it. Jim, why is it rigged this way? You know, I always tell people as like, you know, So I don't, I'm not saying, you know, how I would have done it. Like the best possible life, one foot in joy and one foot in suffering, I wouldn't have created it this way.

1:42:15I'm just saying this is how the universe works. For me, I wish it was one foot in joy, one foot in joy. That's, you know, I think that's going to be heaven. Yeah. Is it true that like your great, great, great grandfather was one of the last samurai? Yes, this is true, right? And so the samurai philosophy is also infused in the book. So talk a little bit about like that and how you think about that philosophy and on some level genetically embody it. Yeah, I mean, I have, Japan is my favorite country in the world. I guess it's kind of in my spirit. And my mom, she's full Japanese. And so her family has this incredible lineage.

1:43:02And I mean, even in her own family directly, like her brother is a nuclear scientist and another brother is a judge honored at the emperor's palace. And another brother was an editor of a major paper. But that kind of the ethos of the samurai, What was really cool was I'm doing this research. I started out with writing, I just want to write the book, the best book ever written on mental toughness. And then along the way, I found out that I realized love, wisdom, and courage are kind of the three pillars that I believe are the most powerful forces in the universe. And then I'm studying about the samurai.

1:43:46And then I come across the Bushido code, the samurai code. And then it says love, wisdom, and courage. I was like, oh my gosh, it's like in me. This is crazy. This is your destiny after all. This is my DNA. Right, yeah. Yeah. And so when I was writing the book, I had this, it started off with, okay, I'm just gonna write the best book on how to have the most peace and confidence and the most pressure. And so people can just achieve extraordinarily. And then I realized, I don't wanna help someone become world number one or Olympic champion if it doesn't change their inner world, if it's not meaningful.

1:44:20Like, am I just gonna help someone be really, really successful in their outer world. And what's the meaning in that? And so I was like, I need to do something more than just help people achieve. And then the thing that changed my life was in the research, realizing that the path to having the most peace and confidence to performing your best under the most pressure, which is many people in America today, more than a pro athlete working two jobs, kids at home, that path, training your heart and mind for that is the same path of living the best possible life. The life with that deep contentment, joy, amazing experiences, deep enriching relationships where you're learning and growing and making a difference is the same path.

1:45:03That's what changed my life. That's what inner excellence is. This wholehearted path where like when you talk about a lot, like being in sync and surrendering to this greater power, that's what inner excellence is. And that's the big contrarian is the wrong word, but I would imagine kind of challenging idea for a lot of people, as we mentioned earlier, like this idea that these two things are of a piece rather than at war with each other. So in your practice of working with athletes and other high performers, is it a challenge to get that person's head around that? Because if they're successful, because they've compartmentalized their life in a certain way, what you're suggesting is a bit of a threat.

1:45:49Like you gotta tear down that house and we're gonna build a new one from the ground up that takes into consideration all of these things that you feel like you have to sacrifice for the case of greatness. Well, I wanna get to the four daily goals that I mentioned earlier. And before I get to that, I wanna talk about kind of how we start with inter-excellence. And like I shared previously that it's, I wanna know how you wanna feel when you're at your very best. And so this connectedness that you talked about, this transcendence. And so then I wanna know like who you want to become, which is the exact words that you said are really crucial, right?

1:46:22Who are you becoming? And maybe I'm sure everyone wants to hear that actually. That's the billboard, right? Yeah. I mean, that was my answer to a question that Tim Ferriss asked me. He's like, if you could put a phrase up on a billboard, like what would it be? And my initial answer was like, who are you? You know, like who am I or whatever, which is like, it's a profound question, but it's sort of like, all right, it's easy to dismiss. And I thought a better way of approaching it is to ask the question like, who am I becoming? Or who are you becoming? Because in every moment, we are becoming something different.

1:47:02Like there is no stasis, change is happening to us, it's happening for us. We can resist it or we can be in relationship with it. And to the extent that we can leverage the, you know, the fundamental rule of physics in nature, which is that everything is in flux at all moments, where is the opportunity and how are you evolving? Like every choice is either regressive or progressive, like you're either evolving or, you know, moving in the wrong direction, but you're never the same. Even though we think like, oh, everything's cool. This is the way that it is, right? Can't step into the same way or twice.

1:47:42To disabuse yourself of that, yeah, and realize like, oh, there's a choice in every moment and every decision, thought, behavior, action is either moving you towards the person you wanna become or away from it. And this goes back to like being in a treatment center. And after a hundred days upon my release, being reminded by the counselor, like, listen, every thought, behavior, action is either moving you towards a drink or away from it. And I thought, reflecting on that, Like that's just true of everything, right? If you just replace drink with, you know, this more authentic, fully actualized version of yourself, or, you know, the gutter drunk, you know, regressive version of you, it works in every regard of life.

1:48:28So I think it's a profound question in that regard, but I went on, I don't even know what you were asking me or where we were talking about this, but. Working with athletes and how do we get them, get them to get to this place where they're focusing on who they're becoming, which is one of the questions, rather the process of developing who they are rather than the result. Because when you develop who you are, then the results are the best that they can be. And so we start with how do you want to feel on and off the court or the field or the ice or whatever. And often they're very similar, how they want to feel when they're at their best.

1:48:58And then start to think about what do you want most and clarify that. Why are you writing this book? Why are you doing this podcast? what are you really doing it for? And so often, like I did with you, ask, well, what do you want most for your kids? And what do you love most? And what do you want most for them and for yourself? And so now we're starting to get into a little more clarity. And so redefining success, we want to constantly do that every day. And so Inter Excellence has four daily goals. And so the first one is to give the best of what you have every day. Understanding that some days it's only going to be like 30 or 40 % of your best.

1:49:32We need to understand this because people run into frustration and they really get off track because they don't have a realistic understanding of what's going on. And when you're on a 30 or 40 % day, maybe you're sick and had an argument with your partner and just have a lot of stress and coach doesn't like you, you may not have a good day. And so understand, I'm gonna give the best of what I have. And that's it, that's success. Giving the best of what I have, not the outcome. Did I give the best of what I have? And then two is to be present. There's no fear in the present moment. Three is to be grateful.

1:50:08Gratitude is directly linked to inner peace and inner strength and mental toughness. They're all connected to beauty. And then four is to focus on your routines and only what you can control. So this is the four daily goals that we have every day under the overarching goal of learning and growing. And all of those goals are process goals that have nothing to do with outcomes or destinations. Yeah, I don't talk about outcomes at all with my clients. When we first get started, ask them what they want. and then when we set goals, it's really, these are the ones that we focus on. And I ask them, you know, have you set outcome goals in the past?

1:50:42If so, have they helped you or hurt you? And have they created more pressure or they really motivated you? Because everyone's different. And so we want to make sure that they have the, the big thing is the most successful people in anything, like who wins the British Open and golf coming up? They're going to walk by faith, not by sight. In other words, they're going to stay connected to the vision. and they're not gonna get thrown off by unexpected unwanted things. And this is what I wanna help people do. That reminds me of a story that John John Florence told here a couple of weeks ago, world champion surfer, anointed the next Kelly Slater since he was a tiny kid and was very successful in his youth and won two back-to-back world championships and then really struggled for a number of years.

1:51:32until seven years later this past year, he won his third world title. But we were talking about visualization and he was sharing that what he has learned to do that has been most effective is not to visualize like the nuts and bolts of the experience of being in competition, like every detail, what are you eating and how are you, like all the logistics of it, so that you can be prepared for all of the variables. And one of the reasons for that is there's too many variables in surfing. You have no, like, it's just like, everything's out of control, right? You get the wave you get, there's people all over the place.

1:52:13Like, it's just, it's impossible to anticipate what might or might not happen. And what has been effective for him is visualizing how he wants to feel out there and realizing that the pressure of having one, two, back-to-back world championships and carrying that burden of being the next Kelly Slater was interfering with his ability, A, to be present when he was out on the wave and to be attached to these outcomes based upon expectations, other people's opinions, all these things you talk about. And in truth, remembering like, I know how to do this. Like I know how to surf. And in order to surf to the best of my ability, I have to get out of the way, right?

1:52:58And so when I'm doing my best surfing, I'm not thinking about it, but I do have a feeling, like there's this feeling. And so his visualization is like, how do I wanna feel? It's like engendering that feeling. And that feeling is a product of practicing these four daily goals, like gratitude, being present, giving the best of what you have, and hopefully inhabiting that, essentially that flow state, that transcendent state where everything is in alignment. You know, that's really powerful. And what I would also add that would be powerful as well. So I think with visualization, one thing that people make a mistake on is like you said, trying to visualize every possible outcome and also just seeing themselves being successful, like a golfer seeing birdies or whatever, a football player catching touchdowns.

1:53:49That can be helpful. But what's more powerful is seeing how you want to feel, exactly what he's doing, and seeing yourself overcoming adversity. When you visualize, we want to make sure that your subconscious connects with the feeling that you're going to have when you're out there and also connects with the great feelings that you've had in the past. And so you might visualize 100 times some future event going well and then you get out there and you don't get that feeling. And it's largely because when you visualize, the feeling that you had was not similar to the feeling you had when you got out there.

1:54:27In other words, you got out there and you're really nervous, you're visualizing there's no nerves. So your subconscious didn't connect them. We need to find a way to connect the two. So when you get out there, you're going to feel similar. Your subconscious is like, oh, I've been here before. And so part of that is visualizing the adversity and seeing yourself handling. And what we do with Inter Excellence is we visualize handling things that will never happen, way more adversity than you're ever gonna find. And so, because we don't ever wanna be in a situation where we're thrown off emotionally.

1:54:58Yeah, you're dysregulated because of some unanticipated thing. Yeah, I don't want them to say, look, Jim, Rich, that's never happened in 20 years of my sport. I'm like, okay, well, you get to be ready for anything. That's why we visualize more than you're ever gonna have happened. In working with all of these people over the years, what have you discovered about the difference between the athlete or high performer that gets it, they read your book, they hear what you're saying, they're able to put it into practice and make these changes and progress forward versus the person who either resists what you're talking about or gives it their best shot, but just can't really make that leap from, where they are into the behavior changes and thought patterns that are going to flip the switch.

1:55:50Yeah, so since I started 15, 20 years ago, the majority of my clients have had the best year of their careers, our first year together, or the best year in their last five years, but not everybody. And I think there's many reasons why people don't do well, but one of the reasons why I think that I see that people that haven't really taken to it is they weren't able to get out of their own way. And part of that is that ego. and there's a lot of people come to me naturally that I don't care what we do, Jim. I just want to perform better. I mean, this is human nature, right? Whatever this lovey-dovey stuff, it doesn't matter.

1:56:25I'll do it, but I just want to get, and they're not able to make the leap because they're not able to get out of their own way, whether it's ego or pain or some trauma that they can't see the leap or it's not a leap. They can't see the connection between, okay, what I really want, it's not what I really want is to win a PGA Tour Championship or the US Open or whatever it is. What I really want is to live a meaningful, fulfilling life with amazing experiences, deep, enriching relationships. That's what I really want. And they can't see, they're just like, all I know is if I win this event, if I get more successful, I have better feelings, I have a better life in their mind because they're singular story, singular picture.

1:57:01And I wasn't able to get them out of that. And so if I can't get them out of that, then they're just gonna go through the motions and it's not gonna work because we're looking for a heart transformation. like you have talked about before, new neural pathways. So your reactions when you're squeezed, like an orange, when it's squeezed, orange juice comes out. When we're squeezed, what's in our heart, which is the epicenter of everything you think, say, and do, your spirit, your will. When we're squeezed, we want inner peace to come out. And so that's what inner excellence is, getting this transformed heart, creating new neural pathways.

1:57:35Yeah. What's interesting about that is, I'm envisioning the guy who comes to you because he wants to win the PGA championship. And then you give him an earful and he reads the book and all of that. And he's like, if I do what this guy says, I'm never gonna win. This is gonna ruin my chances of winning the PGA championship. Like it's very, it's like a threat. Well, loving your opponent, that's not an American way. I knew this guy, this was years ago, very successful guy who got into yoga and he would go to this yoga class that we would go to. And he's like, I can't stop coming here, but if I keep coming here, I'm gonna lose all my money.

1:58:17It's funny how that works. Cause on some level, your book is a bit of a Trojan horse. It's sort of like the Tao of life for Westerners, but you have to wrap it in this high performance packaging so that people are like, oh, I want that. I wanna read that. But they crack the spine and they're in for a ride because there's so much more going on here. I think it's the same thing that you've shared with the world. You're saying, hey, it's a spiritual journey. And we live in a culture that's like, oh, that's a little bit, I just want success. And so this is the same message that you're sharing. So how do you translate that for the spiritually or religiously allergic?

1:59:03It's just the getting to that love. What do you love most? and who you're becoming, like if they have kids, what do you want most of your kids? And often they'll say like kind of what you shared, I just want them to be happy. And then I'll share with them about, I think probably what you really want is them to have this meaningful, fulfilling life with amazing experiences and et cetera. And so if that's what you want, the number one way, kind of what you said earlier is who you're becoming is gonna impact them. That's the number one thing for you to learn, to have this peace and joy in your heart.

1:59:34and I can teach you how to have that and how to pursue it. I don't know if teaching is the right word. When I talk to work with people, I don't say that I'm the teacher. I say, look, I have my own fears and weaknesses and self-centeredness. I'm gonna share with you what I've learned and I'm gonna share with you my journey. You're gonna share your journey. We're working on the exact same things. I wanna have more peace and joy under pressure and I wanna be walking love, not fear, be grateful, not entitled. But I'm human just like you. we're going to work on this together. And what is the biggest challenge that you're confronting with your inner life right now?

2:00:11Since January 12th, my life has been a lot different. Just so many more cities and amazingly, there's abundance of more people that are willing to chat with me. And so there's a couple of things. One is busyness is like Henry Nowen said, is the enemy of the spiritual life. And when I say spiritual life, I mean a life of deep contempt and joy and confidence no matter what. I'm not talking about religion. And unless you say true religion, which is taking care of widows and orphans and things like that. But this is the path of inner excellence is how can I get out of my way, my own ego, which leads to fear and have what I want most, this amazing, fulfilling fullness of life and work on that every day.

2:01:06In the context of now being in a situation in which your ego is getting stroked more than ever, right? Which is all the more reason why you were spared having this opportunity earlier, right? I couldn't have handled it before. But now it's, yeah, but now it's being tested, right? And so you have to really be conscious of how well you're walking. Yeah, there's two things. That's a great question. Two things that's going to be really important for me going forward. In fact, God told me at the Super Bowl in New Orleans, in my hotel room, one is proximity to the poor is going to be really important for you.

2:01:46And then the other thing is day three. So I think of day one as January 12th when all of a sudden the onslaught of interviews and attention. And day three, it's 3 a.m. My heart is racing. and it's just, it wasn't anxiety from too many concerns. It was just so much coming at me. And it was like, how do I handle all this? And then looking at all the book sales and there was this kind of overwhelm. And I think like someone who wins a lottery or something like that, you have so much coming at you at once. And then it was this amazing moment. God said, look, Jim, it doesn't matter if you sell a thousand books, a million books or a billion, what are your bank account is?

2:02:27how many zeros, none of that matters. You're not going to change. Your purpose stays exactly the same. And look, you didn't do this. I did it. You're not doing it. I'm doing it. So you don't need to be, make sure you say the right thing, do the right thing, because this was not your doing. And I talk about in the best possible life, at most, if I were to contribute to anything good that's happened in my life, it would be 2 % out of 100. God would be the 98%. I talk about how Michael Phelps and use him as a scenario with 23 limit gold medals. 2 % is what I would say is our contribution. You also give away like a percentage of the royalties on your book, right?

2:03:07You have a foundation for that or charitable outlet for that. Yeah. The Interaction with Freedom Project. Yeah. So we do these house builds in Mexico with Youth with a Mission. It's amazing. You have to come. It's just the house build alone is life-changing. and it's really this understanding when you do it that we need the poor more than the poor need us it's easy to think oh i'm gonna go there and do my good thing but how did like if we just look at our lives how did we have anything good come in our life we had to come to the point where at the end of ourselves we were where we felt like we had nothing and there's only surrender was the only other option.

2:03:49And that's why when you're, so the greatest force in the universe is unconditional love. And the most powerful love, there's a love that's so powerful it's not available except through weakness and sacrifice. And like, for example, think about the earthquake that I was thinking about in Haiti, this terrible thing. If you're there digging people out of the rubble, are you concerned about what you're wearing and you know concern self-conscious what do people think about me there's no concerns about that you're just digging to save someone's life right and that's what weakness there's a strength in love that's only available in weakness that comes out and um that's kind of what we try and do with help people understand with the inter excellence freedom project and building the houses in mexico um you fly in and out of san diego it's it's um four or five days.

2:04:45But what I do is I add an inter-excellence retreat to it. And so we do both. We build a house in two days and then we add an inter-excellence, a full day of inter-excellence. And it's a way that the public can have this life-changing experience with building a house with this family. Because you get there, there's just a foundation. We walk away and they're giving them the keys to their new house and new life. And so it's a way you can have both for, you know, most people aren't able to do an inter-excellence retreat. So that's where they can. And what happens on the retreat? So we have, with the Inter Excellence, we go through the same retreat that I give over three days to professional athletes and people all over the world.

2:05:26And I just take them through that in like a day and a half. And they come in, we stay at the base in Ensenada or in Tijuana. And yeah, it's really powerful. Wow. With all the media attention that you've garnered over the last year, is there anything that gets missed or misunderstood or underappreciated about what you're trying to communicate? Well, I think the main thing is people putting the attention on me. And like I said, I mean, I'm just someone that tried to surrender to this message that God's sharing with the world. And that he chose me is this incredible honor. But I'm just an average person.

2:06:09I'm really nobody significant. That's the kind of mistake I think that's happened is people kind of think about me. And what is the one thing as we kind of wind this down that you wanna make sure that comes across that everybody kind of understands about this idea of inner excellence? Like if there's one thing that they walk away from this conversation and reflect upon over the coming days, like how would you put words to that? Well, there's two things that, so Inter Excellence has three principles that we kind of live by. And the first one is that everything is here to teach me and help me. It's all working for my good.

2:06:48And understand that I think what separates the most successful people in any walk of life from everyone else is courage. And we can all be courageous. And so understand when you look back on your life, if you want to, anyone that's listening or watching can, they can live an extraordinary life with amazing relationships and experiences. But it's going to take some courage to master your ego and start to work on that every day and letting go of who you've been so you can become someone you've never been before. And facing those feelings that you haven't been willing to face before. Understand that self-centeredness is the biggest challenge that we face in performance and in life.

2:07:31and humility is not, I think it's really misunderstood. I define humility as an accurate view of self. It's not overinflated, it's not underinflated because some people, they don't realize that when you're saying, oh, who am I to do this or that, that's an egocentric thing to say, who am I to do this? Like, who are you not to do that? You're created in God's image. We all have this potential within us to live this life filled with amazing experiences. It's just that we get in the way. And if you're willing to face your fears and work on your ego, then have the courage to take one little step today, then anything is possible.

2:08:11And the courage, I think people associate courage with ego in some regard. Like I have to summon the courage. Like I have to like my ego, I have to like have the, summon the confidence or whatever, believe in myself in order to do this thing. But the courage you're talking about is somewhat the inverse in that you have to, it's the courage to like relinquish the ego, right? And embody, you know, the humble servant notion. It's also the courage to be afraid. And so Tom Cruise said it so well. He said, you know, he's famous for doing all these stunts and being this mega star. And he said something that I've always remembered, something along the lines of, you know, everyone's afraid.

2:08:59The only difference with me is that I'm not afraid to be afraid. And this is what we wanna do with inner excellence to live a new life where you're really having these amazing experiences. It's, are you willing to be afraid and sit in that feeling? I think that's a good place to stop for today. I could talk to you all day. Likewise, thank you. That was amazing. My inners feel excellent right now. Awesome. I'm feeling a sense of inner excellence. just being in your presence. You're a gift. The message that you've been entrusted to share that has been channeled through you and is reaching so many people right now is a really powerful one and a great one.

2:09:43And I think it's a beautiful mission that you're on. And I appreciate you taking the time to come here today and talk to me. Yeah, thank you so much. It's such an honor to be here. And especially of anyone, I was so excited to spend time with you because of the journey that you've been on And you've shown us all that we can all have courage and we can all change our lives. I think that we are all dancing atop reservoirs of untapped potential. And the journey towards releasing or breathing expression into that potential is something we're all capable of. And maybe we're not gonna win the PGA championship, but I think we all have a song inside of ourselves that we wanna sing.

2:10:26and everything in your book is about how to nourish that expression and walk the planet a little more authentically with a little bit more grace. And with this idea of love that I'm struggling with Jim, and I'm gonna be calling you because I need your guidance. We're gonna work on it, yeah. I need it more than anyone. Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much. And please come back again. Thank you, I would love to. Cool, peace.

2:10:59That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful.

2:11:39This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor.

2:12:19And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:12:53you