Introducing Mentor Buffet: Zach Braff—Be Yourself Until Somebody Gives You a Chance

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33:30I had a movie called The Broken Hearts Club that was playing at the Sunset Five, which was an art house theater at the time. And I was waiting tables. I had an experience where people would come from the movie to the restaurant, and I would wait on them. And I remember people coming to me, and they would do a double take. and they were just like, we just saw your movie. And I'd say, oh, thank you so much. And they'd say, you were great. I'd say, oh, thank you. I really appreciate it. Let me tell you about the specials.

34:11We live in a complex and ever-changing world, a place that is maybe harder than ever to successfully navigate. The answer is surely to be brave, but it's also to seek and be open to guidance. Mentors are the one consistent throughline in the lives of all accomplished people, myself included. So welcome to Mentor Buffet, a feast for those like me curious about who helped the most successful among us succeed. Zach Braff has been an actor his entire life. He first acted when he was 14 alongside Gwyneth Paltrow in a CBS TV pilot that never aired. And he also did a bunch of other roles since then. He auditioned a ton.

34:54He went to film school. He was really trying to make it work. In his early 20s, he followed a girl he loved to LA and kept trying to make it. I was broke. So I had that Nissan and I had a job at the restaurant. And then his mentor, Bill Lawrence, entered the picture. Bill Lawrence, who created Scrubs, and Ted Lasso, and Cougar Town, and Shrinking, and Spin City. Bill is the first person who really gave Zach a big Hollywood chance. My journey began when I auditioned for the first time for Scrubs. Which became a big hit and catapulted Zach into mainstream celebrity. Sometimes mentorship starts because somebody really believes in you.

35:30I really celebrate Zach's debut feature, Garden State, which I saw at exactly the right place and exactly the right time in my life, and you know what I'm talking about with movies like that for you. I've learned a lot from Zach. His lessons are about staying true to your dreams and then figuring it out from there. Here's the actor, writer, director, Zach Braff and me. We say, like, only in Hollywood can you go see a movie and have the star of the movie wait on you for dessert. That's... And there are other times where I would have, like, a meet... I remember going in and meeting with, like, a potential manager and I'm bragging about how my career is blowing up and how I'm up for this and I'm up for that.

36:06And I was in this, you know, like you do, just like hyping yourself up so that you seem so desirable. And then that night, the guy sat down at my table to be waited on with all his friends. And it was so humbling. And I actually really enjoyed being a waiter, even though it was very hard. But I often smile when I think of the camaraderie and the laughs we had and the worst of tensions and the worst of stresses on a Friday night when when you're in the weeds and you're just screwed you have so many tables you can just shake your head and laugh and I remember some of the biggest belly laughs I've ever had have been that in that environment that's awesome but it was humbling in trying to present yourself as as as blowing up and then and then you know but whatever it was what I had to do and it's not that you're not blowing up.

36:56It's just that everything takes longer than we think. I think because I'd been at it since I was a kid, I was getting a little bit... I knew that I would work in production. You know, what I always say to aspiring actors and directors and the like is, you know, there's a lot of wonderful artisan jobs in the industry that aren't being an actor, that aren't being a filmmaker, that aren't being a screenwriter. So you can pursue those and get trained in a bunch of the trades and be involved in production if that's what you like. You know, I would have been a camera assistant. I would have been a camera operator.

37:32I would have been a first AD. I loved just the world of production. So I sort of knew in the back of my mind, I'm going to try as hard as I can in being the leader, in being an actor who can, you know, pay to live here. But, you know, if that doesn't work out, I don't have to go be an orthodontist. I can still do, I can work in the space that I love. And so I try and encourage young people to do that, to not just pursue trying to be a star because that's ridiculous. Yeah, and it's out of your hands a bit. Like there's like, you know, it's like there's give and take there. And it sounds like you're really someone who like wanted to be in the game.

38:17You're like, I like this game. I want to be in the game. right? There's a lot of positions. I think a lot of people set themselves up for, I'm going to try

38:30to make a living at the hardest things to make a living at. And then if it doesn't happen, I'll have to go do something else. And for those that this applies to, I say, you know, simultaneously be learning a skill set. In the example that you like production, learn a skill set on set that's something that you could do that isn't being an actor, that isn't being a writer-director, because the odds of those happening and also being enough money for you to survive are slim. Yeah, I think that's very wise. It's like, it's, I have no better way of saying what you said. Finally, tell me about Bill. The next chapter of my journey began when I auditioned for the first time for Scrubs.

39:17I had heard that they'd been looking a long time for this guy. And I went in and... This guy. This guy, J.D. It's just awesome that he's like a... They're looking for him. Yeah, I mean, the lead of a show, I mean, any character in a show, but when you're casting stuff is now, I've been on the other side of the table a bunch. it's like it's it's not it's kind of intimidating will we find the guy because the show you know 75 of making something good is casting it um it makes or breaks everything and so if i think for for them the casting people and bill lawrence who created scrubs and ted lasso and cougar town and shrinking and spin city they were kind of nervous they couldn't really find the guy they and um and so i went in and the casting director literally it was such a click it was such a fit the cast director was like what are you doing later this afternoon you have to meet bill i mean he was so instantly excited about my read and it was exciting for me because i so many things that I was reading at that time, I, I really didn't find that funny.

40:31It was sort of, you know, sitcom-y jokes that I tried my best to make funny, but I didn't, it was not something I would have watched. Whereas when I read Scrubs, I laughed so hard. It was so my sense of humor. It was, it was subversive and it was kind of racy. And it was, it was, uh, the whole single camera fantasy aspect. It was pretty out of the box for at the time. And, and I, and I'll never forget that he, I just kept getting called back. I kept getting called back for more and more. And I got really superstitious and I started wearing the same clothes every time. Oh, I do that. I wear the same socks when I race.

41:07I used to wear the same socks and not wash them. I don't know if you have time to stop in a race and change them. But you don't wash them. That's gross. They're lucky socks. Okay. Anyway, so Bill really believed in me. Bill was the first person to really give me a big shot as a lead. And I was completely unknown. I was waiting tables and he just believed in me. And he really went to bat for me because there were people that were up for the part that were famous, that were on household names. And he really believed in me and campaigned for me. And then I got the part and it was life-changing, obviously.

41:45But then he began, it continued. And what the great thing about, if you're an aspiring filmmaker and you're on a TV show, a single camera comedy. One thing that's wonderful is there's a different director every week. So it's like grad school for a filmmaker because every single episode of Scrubs, a new filmmaker with a new style and a new modus operandi on set would come in. And I could learn from him or her and be like, ooh, I love the way they are doing that. Ooh, I'm not so crazy about the way they do that. And so I was just a sponge. And also too, with the improvising and with comedy writing, Bill was so good at it.

42:33He was so, one of the things he's masterful at is the blocking of the scene and figuring out the funniest way to block the actors and then also coming up with new jokes on the day that are better than what's written. And so that whole way of working, of going at the blocking rehearsal when we figure out who's going to be where and who's going to say what and when are you going to grab that, it's clear from his track record, he was a master of that. So it was an incredible grad school in directing and in directing comedy. It's awesome because you are a writer, director, actor. Like that's not everybody, you know, who does any one of those things.

43:23Do you think that Bill is like, did he make you want to be doing that? Or did you always? It's funny. At first, he was a very big brotherly to me in some ways. He was very supportive of me, but I think he was skeptical about my writing and directing aspects. I think also he just wanted me to be the star of his show and be great and be focused. But then I went and made Garden State, which was kind of like, you know, in a funny way, an audition for Bill to show that I could make things. That's very sweet. That's really, really sweet. I cut Garden State in my living room. We were saving money everywhere.

43:58So we set up the Avid, the computer system we cut movies on in my living room. of my I just bought my first house and there was no furniture in it there was nothing in it except for the avid computer terminal in my living room and um and I think a couch and two chairs and then I asked Bill to come watch it and give me notes um and he did and that was really really important because he gave me some major uh feedback that was can you tell me about it I had an ending that was a bit shocking that's not in the film. It's an ending that I wrote that was a bit of a twist, a reveal, that ultimately was really powerful, but it was kind of upsetting.

44:46I remember that Bill watched the movie, and he said, that is the most powerful scene in your movie, and it will never be in your movie. And he goes, you can't see it yet. but I'm just going to plant that seed. This is an example of trying something on. And because your instincts, your instant response is like, are you out of your mind? Like, you think I'm going to cut that scene? Like da-da-da-da-da. But you try the coat on and you sit with it. And then ultimately he was right. You want to know what it is, don't you? I want to know what it is. and because I want to understand how he thinks, not because I'm like...

45:34Well, he was right. So in short, without telling us too long for those of your listeners and viewers that know the movie Garden State, the mother character drowned in the bathtub. She was a paraplegic and she sort of mysteriously drowned in the bathtub. um and um we the audience for the whole movie assume it was an accident we don't we don't know really exactly what happened and um and then the story becomes mostly about a love story about two people finding each other who who really desperately need each other and what i had written because uh she had made lots of allusions to not wanting to live anymore the mother um that she had attempted suicide and was a extreme depressive and really just didn't want to be alive anymore.

46:31I had written a scene that towards the end of the movie, that's a flashback to the night that she drowned and you hear her screaming, um, in the water. And then Ian Holmes character, the father runs to go save her. And then has an epiphany as he reaches the doorframe of the bathroom and he stops himself and he grips the side of the doorway and he realizes how desperately his wife doesn't want to be alive anymore. And from his point of view, he loves her so much that he decides he's going to do what she wants and let her go. And he slowly backs up from the doorframe and sits down on the bed and listens to her drown.

47:11And then after she stops screaming, he picks up the phone and calls 911. I didn't mean to make you cry. I'm sorry. No, it's, well, why do you think that it's not in there? It's very raw and it's very intense and it's very painful. And it's something a lot of people who have had suicide in their life or people they love who've contemplated suicide. it's so raw and painful that it hijacked the whole emotional end of the film which is a lot about which would be other decision making of course and also because you don't know what you're making until you make something i didn't really fully realize that i'd made a love story yeah and you don't want all of those emotions and rawness and um painful feelings derailing the love story you spend two hours building well it's it's powerful because bill is basically saying that like it's basically like restraint for the sake of balance right absolutely which is a huge part of being a filmmaker yeah it's like a conductor of the orchestra being like your violin playing is fucking perfect but in this particular piece it's too loud well it's so loud i mean the reason why I teared up.

48:33This is whatever. I have, you know, personal stories related to this. And, like, I would have, like, my dad, like, you know, I've saved my mom. Like, we've been there, you know? And so, like, the thought that someone, like, maybe people would have made that decision. I don't know. It's just so, like, my dad wouldn't have done that, you know? And it's like, obviously, that dad isn't my dad. Right. I mean, he was a bit of a controlling narcissist of a, you know, if you remember the film, he's heavily drugging his son. Totally, totally. He's not exactly the dream dad. But he means well, right? But in this, what I wrote, what I cut, I think I did sell that he means well.

49:30Yeah, that's what I mean is that he means well. And so like to not even give him the like, it's like he didn't need, you had done the task of that character or whatever it is as a director. and anyway anyway i just um it's it's an awesome story because it it must have been so hard to cut something that you had like put so much time and energy into and shot and like probably felt quite good about it as like an isolated i knew it was a problem i knew it was a problem because when you make something as when you make a film you don't really know what it is until you get in in the edit room you the way i think of it's like a scavenger hunt you go out and you you have only 26 days or something on a low budget movie and you're frantically collecting as much as you can and it's like you know then you run back to the edit room after your 26 days and you're kind of like what did we get and then as you begin to shape it it morphs into something anew it's not the script that you wrote.

50:36It's things, a performance so rises to the top that you go, oh my goodness. I'm in a movie with Joey King, my film Wish I Was Here. And Joey King as a young girl was so extraordinary that my brother and I couldn't help but edit the film to feature Joey more because it was like the camera couldn't, the camera didn't want you to cut away from her. My point, and then with Garden State, there was another plot line I cut out. There was this, It obviously became so much about the love story between Natalie and myself. And so as you, you know, often an assembly of everything you shot is three hours long.

51:14So as you begin to cut away the clay and go, what is the two hour, an hour 45 movie I'm telling? You have to make bold choices. And in shaping that, you start to see your story. and in a world where I've chosen this particular sculpture, that intense scene doesn't live in this movie anymore. To be able to like see something for what it actually ends up being, right, is sort of a loss of control a little bit, right? Because you try as hard as you can up until that point to like capture what you're capturing and so like what I mean is it seems like a wonderful lesson in like accepting what is actually true versus like forcing things in life?

52:00Because like sometimes things present to us, right? And they're not what we thought or they're just different. And like, that's hard for people. Isn't life similar where like we don't always, like how things turn out are not really always how we thought that they would turn out. And like your ability to like take what it actually is and like live with it or make it the best that it can be is such an important thing. Absolutely. I mean, I think that's what my last film A Good Person was about. What starts as a tragedy, a horrible car accident, ends up yielding one of the most powerful friendships that this woman will ever have in her whole life.

52:48a friendship that ultimately in the macro will probably change her life for the better. Yeah. And it begins with vehicular manslaughter. I mean, I think that that's an enormous part of life is setting off in one direction and seeing what flowers. But most people don't want to do that. Like they don't want to, like, it's so uncomfortable. like it's so uncomfortable to not know like where things are going or like how much control you can have but look what beautiful things have happened to you as an example you set out to to to to be an athlete and uh and then this led to this which led to this which led to this and now you're doing something that i imagine lights you up quite a bit it's cool it's cool it's just like i think i just we just have to like surrender that that's normal or like that that's life like that is like if you're opting into life, you're opting into like accepting that the thing that...

53:48Loving your fate. That's a more fati is Latin, which comes up in a good person. But the idea of loving your fate, loving what is so, what happens. Yes, loving it. Choosing it. Choosing it and loving it is better than accepting it too. Because accepting it feels like there's like a... Accepting it is like fine. Loving it is like, I fucking love this. Bill gave you a really specific like note and you were able to learn a really big lesson. And that is, that feels like a really specific way to mentor that is super helpful, you know, because it's the opposite of going to class. Because in class, it feels like you learn theories, you learn like techniques, you learn rules.

54:33And this was like, you saw it directly applied to something that you had thought of. so it like it must have resonated more and you must I mean those instructions resonate the most right yeah I said it continues well that was the huge first example but then as my career continued up until this day I always show him well not only do I direct his show shrinking but I whenever I'm working on something I bring it to him and be like can I get your advice on this what do you think whether it's a script, whether it's a commercial, whether it's a feature, because I trust his gut and I want to know what he has to say.

55:11So the mentorship sort of continues. We've both gotten really into sauna cold plunging because of course it's Los Angeles, why wouldn't we? And so we have a lot of good mentorship sessions in the sauna. And a three-minute cold plunge as well. We don't talk during the three-minute cold. We have a quiet time during the cold part because we're in pain, but the sauna is where we bond. That's awesome. That's awesome. Can we talk more about like believing in yourself? Because like, it's such a like, it's an elusive thing, right? Like people, where do you think for you it came from? And we can like find it.

55:49Like, does it just exist? Like, is it just like, I like this thing and therefore I'm just, I don't even know if there's an answer to this. I think it really coming from me, I can't speak for everyone. For me, I think it came from parents that instilled in me a confidence. How? You know, I wasn't the typical kid. I had zero interest in sports, which, you know, going to public school in New Jersey, that was hard because that's where kids made friends. That was really the social circles. My parents went out of their way to find a community for me by finding a theater camp for because even at camp, summer camp, which was popular on the East Coast, they were all sort of sports themed.

56:32Yes, that's most camps, right? Did you go to camp? Not like East Coast kids did. No, I mean, I went to soccer camp. Like I did that stuff, but it was like intense soccer camp. Yeah, so these were like, you know, generic camps where you do lots of things. But my parents found a theater-based one called Stage Door Manor, and I went there and it was like one of the most epiphanous moments of my whole life. How old are you? I must have been like 12. And I just, it was like, it was like your props. It was like Alice in Wonderland. I was like, I had no idea that there was like a world of people like me.

57:10It was the first time in my life I really felt like I wasn't a weirdo. So maybe the belief is like part the like parental, you know, it's part like upbringing and part exposure to like feeling like there's a world where you could belong. Exactly. I think that's good. I think it was parents being great parents saying, let's find community and acceptance for this child. And they didn't know that I would flourish in that world, by the way. They were just being great parents. They had no idea if I was good or not. They just wanted me to not feel alone and sad because I was a pretty anxious kid. And I think they saw how not only did I flourish there, but how I never wanted to leave.

57:57I felt like I was being pulled out of heaven when I had to leave. Right. Those summer camp, those camp, it's like any camp experience, but it sounds like especially yours. It's like you never want it to end. No, also because I realized in hindsight, I was a very sensitive kid. I was very vulnerable. And there were role models, speaking of mentors, of men who were that way, who were sensitive and affectionate and artists. I didn't have any of that in my real life. I had very sort of alpha, jockey, tough guy men in my life. My father wasn't, but I mean in school and in my community. And so I think I saw this whole new way of being.

58:55But actually it's funny, it all ties to Scrubs because I think the reason JD resonated with so many men was he was sort of bringing that to primetime ABC and NBC. and that was the first place I saw that it was kind of okay to be who I was. The moment that we see that it's okay to be who we are, we still have a choice to step fully into it or not. Like that, I think about often the metaphor or the science of a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. I love that. I heard you talk about that on Rich Roll, and it's one of the reasons I wanted to meet you because I loved that. And that they don't have a choice, but we do, right?

59:41So you choose to step forward and say that like, okay, this new universe of people, the way that people carry themselves is like me and I want to be around more and more people like that. And that's not a one-time choice. That's almost an everyday choice, I think. Well, that's interesting to me too. I think every morning it's like, I mean, not that I literally do this, although I probably should, but it's choosing all the time to be fully expressed and fully yourself. Because we constantly want to retreat, in your analogy, back to the cocoon. Yeah, or back into like a protective personality that we put on to survive.

1:00:25Absolutely. do you i mean i want to talk about bell i really do but now that we're talking about like waking up and being whatever like being the the you more than anything that's the theme i think that's that's been the most powerful tool is is is gratitude and um appreciation of all the good things that are happening in my life i think when you when you meditate on that as often as you can And I literally just set an alarm on my phone. I was talking to my therapist about how I do a morning meditation about focusing on my day and gratitude. And I do it when I get into bed at night. And he said, why not add a third one?

1:01:10Why not put an alarm on your phone in the middle of the day to remind yourself to take a couple moments and think about gratitude for whatever has been going on in your day thus far? Which is something I never thought I would do. Now you do it. To please my therapist, I started. Well, the middle of the day thing is cool because the middle of the day is when we're like getting blown by the wind that isn't our own, right? Like when you wake up, like the thing disturbing you is like things ahead and like your dreams or something, you know, and then before bed, it's, I feel like in the middle of the day, you can make the most, you can pivot the most.

1:01:44And I never really heard about that. And all the people I've heard talk about gratitude and meditation and the like, the idea of stopping in the middle of the day and being like, okay, how's today going so far? What can you focus on positive that's happened? What do you have to be grateful for? I don't know. I don't know if I'm able to keep it up, but I'm trying. I wonder if your days feel longer too. Like if you break it up in the middle. Well, it's not very long. It's just a matter of taking a few minutes to be like, close your eyes and focus on how lucky you are to be alive and healthy and that your body, to have a soul, to have a body to be able to afford to eat, to have a house, to have a roof over your head, even the most simplest things, to have people in your life that love you.

1:02:31It helps you just reframe any stupid stress that you're having. Where all you have are shin splints and everything else. All I have are shin splints. I'm like, help me, Obi-Wan. You're my only hope because - I'm going to help you. I'm going to help you. No, I meant that it might make your day feel longer because you could have like two different kinds of days. Because if you like take the reset, you can shit, right? Absolutely. Like you're not, what I mean is it's like, this is why I love production days too because the lunch break, you're actually like just supposed to chill and like you're not supposed to keep plowing through.

1:03:04You know about changing your socks, right? No, tell me. I want to learn everything from you. This is very important because you're also very into socks. Because I, yes, I like socks. I like, who doesn't like a good pair of socks? But don't you, aren't you like into socks? Or maybe you just have a sock partnership. I have sock partnerships, but we don't want to lead all the readers into believing I'm into socks because that will lead them to believing that I'm into feet, which is not a path that we want to go down. She's not into feet. I think it was Sidney LeMay when he was asked, what's your best advice for directors?

1:03:38It was change your socks at lunch. And it's true. Why? Well, by the time six hours have rolled by, if you're a director, you really sweat a lot and you're walking around in damp, gross socks. And there's something about at your lunch break, which is a half hour, an hour, depending on the production, of going somewhere. Hopefully you have at least a tiny six by four trailer cubby, if anything. but whatever you have, even if it's just a chair on the side of the road, there's something about changing to fresh socks and dry, clean, tight socks that feels like a reset. And when I read it, I was like, that's funny, but I'm going to try it just for the fun of it.

1:04:23And it really does something. Maybe it's psychosomatic, but it feels like, okay, new chapter. It's also invisible to everybody else. Like I feel like if you came out with a new shirt or sweatshirt, it would be bizarre. It would be outward facing. Right. But the socks is for you. Nobody knows. And it's just you. And there's just something about like it gives a little psychosomatic newness to the second half of the day. That's the best director advice I can give you. It's helpful to me because it's an action I can do. Yeah. I have like so much trouble receiving advice where I'm like, I don't know what to do with that.

1:04:56If someone's like, believe that, like, I don't know, the stuff where I don't know what I can, how I can move forward and actually do it. Well, it's funny you're talking about mentors because that's about your show. And I jokingly, but not really jokingly said to you that Rich Roll's a mentor of mine. I know. Because it's not that, you know, Rich and I are friendly. We don't see each other that often. But I get so much mentorship from listening to his show. I learned so much about what type of person I want to be. And I find it very aspirational. And I'm sure I'm not alone. Otherwise, he wouldn't have the huge success he's had.

1:05:33So I feel like, I don't know if you can call that mentorship. You can. I think mentorship should be able to be direct or indirect because otherwise, like if you can't absorb it like the sun, if you need to be touching it, that's so inaccessible. Like who can't, you can't guarantee that you can be talking to the people who you look up to, but you can still pretend they're talking to you. Right. I like that. I didn't know if you were specifically focused on mentors who are physically in your life talking to your face. Definitely not. I mean, that's like, that's a dream. But you just, you have to be able to, like, get what you need for yourself from the world around you, even if you can't, you know, be in the room with them.

1:06:20Yeah. I've gotten a lot of help with that. A lot of positive changes in my life have come out of listening to podcasters who I feel are putting a lot of good, positive energy out into the world. You know, I was sober curious for a long time and it was one of Rich's guests that kind of put, Rich sent me a specific podcast and he's like, listen to this. And it really helped me change my entire relationship with alcohol because it was what I needed to hear so beautifully articulated. And there's so many examples of that where I hear something and, you know, it's not something my therapist said. It's not something a friend said.

1:07:08It's rich having the expert on this specific topic on to articulate it in a very conversational, layman-friendly way. And it just, it lands. You know what's interesting is one of the things that I remember as a 14-year-old most striking me about Garden State was your ability in that film to capture that there aren't words for everything. you are very selective about when you use dialogue and about how you use things besides dialogue to show how people feel right and at that age like we don't have all the words we don't know all the words we don't we feel things that we don't know the words for yet and um it's it's so interesting to hear you talk about now like hearing words that like you that's that click for you with these podcasts.

1:08:02Do you think that the podcasts are affecting you because people find words for things that you don't have words for? Yes. I think that's true. I think that I have a feeling and I feel alone in having that feeling. And then very articulate people are saying, hey, you're not alone. A lot of people are dealing with this. and interestingly here's some information that you would never have known because you're not going to read the book you're not going to take the college class here's a very charming person to break it down in a conversational way which is really new to my world and i know podcasting in general is is new to to earth but i i i find it i go on a hike i i or i'm driving in my car and i this stuff really lands in powerful and in actionable ways for me.

1:09:02And I hear people and I go, I want to live like that. I want to be that kind of person. Yeah. And it's fun to be interested in people, right? Like it's fun to be like people have something to offer people. Yeah. There's a quote I heard once that was, if you want to be interesting, be interested. That's what I took one advertising class in grad school and they said, be interesting and interested. That was like the thing. But what you said is better. I like the one I heard better. I like yours better. And I'm going to update mine. If you want to be interesting, be interested. Yeah, that's good. Because so many people, when you're talking to them, aren't listening.

1:09:38They're scanning. This happens all the time, I'm sure, to you, where you're talking to someone and you can feel that they're scanning your story for something that's happened in their life that's relevant that they can then take over the conversation. And share. Sure. Well, related to that, someone told me that you can't have like a connected conversation with someone if you only ask questions, like if you never offer your perspective or if you only offer your perspective. So if you only do what you just said, because then you're not, there's not like a tennis, you're not really playing tennis with them.

1:10:15It's a dance, but my father used to, I remember my father used to always be someone who would be like, tell me more about that. That's so interesting. And so your mother, you know, he would lean in and be so interested in people. He did that. He definitely did that. And I find it so refreshing when people do that because we're used to someone like, you tell me an anecdote about your mom, and then I go, my mom. She da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I'm less like people are I find are less likely be like so your mom tell me more about that she and what was that like I mean it's just something you notice and I and when you're aware of it you see like while you're telling your story you'd be like oh I can see their eyes they're scanning for their related anecdote and then oh they're going to pivot to their story and we're not going to talk about what I just shared.

1:11:08I'm very aware when the rare thing happens that you're in a conversation and the person leans in to ask more questions about what you just said and doesn't pivot to their opinions, perspective, truths, history about that topic. Thank you so much, Zach, I'm super grateful. Thank you. You're incredible. You're an inspiration. And I can't wait for you to solve my shin splint issue. We're going to solve it. It's not, it's the most classic textbook, adorable thing to feel as an aspiring hiker, jogger that you are. Yeah, I don't want to run. I can't run like you. But I would like to be able to hike multiple days in a row without going out of my shins.

1:11:58Oh, that's very possible. You should be able, you should see yourself, you should believe that you're somebody who will be able to hike every day. Do I need to put that cool tape on my shins? No, you don't. That tape is like... I just thought I might look cool if I put that on. You can. I see you runners with all that fancy tape. The KT tape. This episode brought to you by... This episode is brought to you by KT tape. Cheers to Zach. Which I'm going to put all over my shins, even if it's wrong. Oh my God. You're so honest and forthcoming. and thank you for helping me work through a few things.

1:12:30Because there's sometimes where I'm like, I see something in my brain, because I'll go from story to metaphor, you know what I mean, in my brain, and you're very patient with me. I think you're a natural. I think this was the best episode we've done so far. Yes, it was our best episode. It was our best conversation. Are we done? Yeah, we're done. All right. If you're enjoying Mentor Buffet, follow Voicing Change for more inspirational and truly life-affirming content from shows like Soul Boom, The Proof, Feel Better Live More, and The Rich Roll Podcast. Just go to voicingchange.media. That's voicingchange.media for a beautiful selection of productive and positive shows.

1:13:17That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

1:14:02Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Dan Drake. Portraits by Davey Greenberg. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management.

1:14:39And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace, plants. Namaste. Thank you.