Jay Duplass & Michael Strassner On The Art of Creative Rebellion

28:33Like, how can I help uplift this guy who I feel like needs to be seen more? And like, how can I serve the audience rather than like, how can I look good as a director? Or how can I, you know, it's a service-minded approach, right? Which is obviously like, you know, it's a way of being in relationship with the world. That's a very, that's a very, you know, kind of AA sensibility. But there's this earnestness in the film, you know, which is rare. Like it's sort of, there's a sweetness to it. You know, there's no, it's not cynical like our time. You know, there is a, it's uplifting and heartfelt and vulnerable.

29:08And, you know, this, these characters are kind of just laying it all out there unapologetically, you know, and there's a real, there's real beauty in that. and you just don't see movies like that anymore. And especially like low budget independent films. Like it's just, you know, it did like take me back, you know, decades to when these were the kind of movies that were coming out all the time. Yeah, that's been the most incredible thing that we've experienced in terms of audience reaction. I mean, we've only been to film festivals so far and we've won an inordinate amount of audience awards. I've never had this experience before, or even with giant, not giant movies, but many of the larger movies that I've made.

29:51And that comment has kept coming back to us is this is actually the movie I wanna see on a Saturday night with my partner or with my friends. Like this is the movie I want. This is the movie that will get me back into the movie theater. And also like the people have come up to me and like said, I wanna live in a world where this movie exists. And like, that's been like the sweetest compliment to me. Yeah, I definitely do. and the wild part is that you know everyone who came to work on this movie it's really a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way because when you when you can only pay people the bare minimum um they only will be there unless they want to be there unless they really care and need to be there spiritually so we had 15 people on the ground in baltimore who were just like crying with us every day as we were shooting these scenes and laughing with us every day and just having the time of our lives.

30:46Like the experience of making the movie together has, has been, was for us the way that I think the audience is experiencing the movie. And that's been very refreshing because it is so easy to look out into the world and get discouraged. But like it, you know, it's just a reminder that it's on us to create the beauty and the culture and the joy and the love that we want to experience every day. Like we are the manifestors of our own destiny. And, you know, at the time, you know, I mean, it's a very cheap movie, but movies still cost money and you know the philosophy behind it was kind of like we're gonna lose money on this movie you know what i mean we were kind of like maybe we'll put it up on youtube or something yes yes i mean it was jay has told me several times like we're not gonna make money on this yeah but you're probably like i don't care i'll pay you yeah exactly truly i was like how much you need from me like i got a little bit in the savings you know what yeah that point of of like take responsibility for creating the beauty you wanna see in the world is similar to that speech that your brother gave at South by Southwest about like, no one's coming to save you.

32:06Yeah, the cavalry isn't coming. It's an industry in which there's a lot of gatekeepers and you were just mentioning like, yeah, you gotta raise money, but like that power move of saying like, we're doing this no matter what speaks to that idea that we're not waiting for permission for many of these people. And yes, the tools that are available now, democratize like access to this kind of storytelling, it still costs money, you know? It still costs money, but it is so much cheaper. And I think there was once, you know, just this grand romance about like making a studio film or whatever, being anointed by the powerful people in Hollywood who are, you know, kind of pulling you out of the crowd and saying, this is the next guy.

32:49Yeah. That feels like it's gone, which kind of opens it up to everybody to just like go out and make shit. Yeah, yeah. I mean, making stuff is, it's the most fun thing to do and it does create your own reality. And it is exactly what you're saying that, I mean, most of the people that I know, I mean, look, we're considered an overnight success. But by the time I had made the puffy chair, I was 31 years old. I had made three failed features. I had made a bunch of shitty short films. I had finally made a couple of short films that had some traction. So Puffy Chair was the last ditch effort for me.

33:36I mean, it was like I was, you know, had just turned 30. I was like, I can't do this to myself anymore. I can't drag myself through this torture and my family through that. People were worried about me, you know. But ultimately, I loved making movies. That's what I loved doing. And I just kept doing it. And everyone that I know that is successful, it's never an overnight success story. It's attrition. It's forging forward when all the signs even tell you, you shouldn't be successful. This isn't gonna work. You know, I mean, it's similar to what you created with your podcast. It's like, you know, following people around and going into their hotel rooms with little cameras that you barely knew how to work at the time, you know, because ultimately your heart was in the right place and you knew that there were stories to tell that needed to get out there.

34:33That's what I've learned over and over again. It's weird that I've been doing this for like 30 years. I mean, I've only been successful for 20 of them, but it's funny because I feel like the answer to every question at a film festival is make an undeniably great film. You know, because everyone wants to, how do I get this? How do I get that? You know, how are we going to get a tiny movie distributed with no stars at a time when people are saying movies are dead? You know, like, and independent films are off, off Broadway now, you know? And the answer is, I don't care. I love this guy. He has a story to tell.

35:15We'll talk about Liz a little bit, but his co-star, Liz Larson, I fell in love with her. I learned about her personal story and incorporated that. And I was like, this is a story that I just want to tell. And I just have to trust that it's going to go into the world. And contrary to what everyone was predicting, we are actually going to make money on this movie and we're gonna release it theatrically in movie theaters this fall. And it's totally insane. It's, you know, I'm sitting here talking like, I created this or believe in this philosophy, but I also doubt it. I mean, I told Michael, I was like, we need to be prepared.

35:58This is not gonna sell. To make no money. We need to be prepared to maybe have trouble at festivals. We need to be prepared for all these things. We just need to know that like, we want to tell this story is very, very important to us. And we're going to do this and that's going to be enough. And then we're going to see where it goes. And the coolest thing was within 24 hours of us premiering at South by, I was walking down the street with Jay and he got a text and it was like, we got our first, like offer distribution. And that ended up being the one. Yeah. IFC.

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39:42Well, a great story well told is the most powerful thing in the world and can transcend all obstacles ultimately. And just believing in that and doubling down on that is like inspirational. But Michael, like you mentioned, okay, the story is semi-autobiographical. So like, we gotta do a little bit of what it was like, what happened and what it's like now, because your story is pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland, and everyone was always like, ooh, the wire. I think it's more like hairspray, you know, not more light and fun. But, you know, grew up with my mom, my dad, two sisters, and then my parents got divorced when I was eight.

40:26And then my neighbors became my step family. So, we kind of had this merger family. And, And, you know, like, I just didn't like being like the talk of Towson, like, you know, our small, like we were kind of like, everyone was talking about the Strasseners and all this stuff. And also I think I put a lot of that on me. Like, you know, I think just like so many other alcoholics and addicts. There was, meaning like there's some drama coming out of that house. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like it all, it all was like, it was a little bit of a tough, you know, upbringing. And then, but when I found, ironically enough, I smoked for the first time when I was 10, little weed outside of CVS.

41:13Congratulations. Yeah, it was awesome. It was actually not even behind CVS. We were at the front door to the right. So just two 10 year olds smoking pot out of an apple in Baltimore, which was really great. And then the funny thing is the next day I went over my friend's house and I was like, we can smoke any kind of weed because I'm 10 years old, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. And we go to the pantry and we get dill weed out. And we roll that up in computer paper and we smoke that. And we did not get high, but we like hurt our throats. And Ms. Pontier came home and she's like, why does it smell like matches in here?

41:46What have you been lighting? But my whole point is once I did it, I couldn't wait to do it again. And the same thing happened with alcohol, you know? And then ironically enough, when I was 12, I took five shots, went to a party and threw up everywhere. That night, my mom picked me up and went to the hospital, got my stomach pumped at 12. That's for real. Yeah. And I knew that I didn't feel well, but I couldn't wait to do it again. And it was just more of that. And also the thing that I also realized was I loved drinking and doing drugs, but I also made, I loved making my mom laugh. That was like the two things, you know?

42:28And my heroes were like Robin Williams, Chris Farley, you know, Bill Murray were all people I looked up to. There's definitely some Bill Murray in this character. Oh yeah, for sure. And there's some Farley, you know, physicality wise, like I love that this movie has physical comedy because I feel like I never see that anymore. and done like actually like not like lowbrow, you know? But, you know, and then, but the thing is like growing up in Baltimore, there was really never any talk about like, I think now it's more conversational, but like, you know, I got in a hit and run when I was 19 because I reached down for Crunchwrap Supreme at a red light and I hit a fire hydrant and then two parked cars.

43:11And then I got out on foot and called my mom and I was like, mom, you gotta come get me. And she's like, Michael, you have the car. and I was like, I know where it's parked. And then I came back and got arrested and everything. And my best thinking was, I guess I should join a fraternity now. You know, the opposite of like, maybe this guy's got a problem. Maybe this guy needs some help. Maybe - Let's institutionalize this. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. But like, you know, consequences really didn't happen for me. You know, I moved out to LA and like - To be a comedian, to be an actor. Yeah, to be an actor and to follow in like the footsteps of my heroes.

43:49You know, I wanted to be on SNL so bad. Like that was all I ever wanted, you know. And I got that opportunity back in 2017. I went to New York and tested twice. The second time I tested, I was like, okay, well, I guess I'll be living here. Like this is going to be great. Not sober at the time. and when I came back, I was just like super depressed and the way the movie starts is, I don't, should we give it away or? Yeah, you can tell how the movie starts. The way the movie starts is a failed suicide attempt and I was downstairs in my basement and my best thinking was, I don't think I wanna be here anymore.

44:35So. On the heels of not getting the SNL. Not getting SNL, things just not going my way or whatever type of story I had to tell myself. And I tried to hang myself and luckily the belt broke. And the next day was the first day I actually asked for help. And, you know, like, I just look back on that and it's like crazy to me that like, it could have went another way. And I might not have been here. Astronomical odds that you are here. Yeah, exactly. The other piece that is similar to the story in the movie is kind of getting booted out of your improv group, right? Like was it the groundlings or citizens or what?

45:23Yeah, so basically what happened was I was in the Sunday company there and they told me to take a leave of absence and you'll be welcomed back with open arms. And they wanted you to get sober. Yeah, they wanted me to get sober. And so I did that. and it was like the first time that like consequences were like there, you know? And when they said that, like it's the best thing ever happened to me because I got sober and I haven't had a drink since, you know? Did you go to treatment or did you just like show up? I didn't have insurance. Go to a meeting or how did that happen? Went to a meeting. This guy met me at a Starbucks and he like literally, I didn't understand why he was meeting me.

46:06I didn't understand like why he was taking time out of his day. What's the angle. What's the angle here? Yeah. And he was like, you know, someday you're gonna do it for somebody else. And he took me to my first meeting on a Monday morning. And ironically enough, it was like I was driving Uber for one of my odd jobs out here. I was driving Uber and I picked up somebody at like 7 a.m. in the morning one time, like two years before this. And I was like, where are you headed? And she's like, I'm just going to like this AA because I'm so nosy. I'm going to this AA meeting and I was like, oh, I didn't know they do that that early.

46:40That's awesome. Congrats, hope you figure it out. Meanwhile, you're drunk driving her probably. Yeah, exactly. And ironically enough, that's the first meeting I walked into. Yeah, it was like, did you clock it? Like you remembered like, oh, I remember I dropped somebody off here. So at least I know where that one is. Yeah. And you know, like I just, I kind of like, I didn't wanna be there. I did not wanna be sober. I did not want, because I was also like so afraid of what life looked like without this thing that I had for so long. Well, that's a huge theme that I wanna like put a pin in that because I wanna dig into that a little bit more deeply.

47:20But before we do that, like I suspect that there's this, you mentioned Farley, right? So if you're trying to like mimic your heroes, it's sort of that rockstar thing. It's like, well, this is the lifestyle, man. I'm gonna go to LA and it's like, you're trying to live the like, you know, swingers, the movie lifestyle. Like you gotta be at these clubs and you gotta, you know, show up, post up and be the guy, be the center of attention and all that kind of stuff that is like fueling your desire to be like seen and recognized. Yeah, and the way you described your comedy performances at Groundlings, like Michael was known as like the guy who can like save a sketch with like a topless belly flop at any point in time, you know, it's just like a physicality.

48:07Sacrificing your body, like, you know, just going nuts on stage. That was a big part of like. There was just this one thing that I did where I was like this Southern, it's like this Southern gym teacher that just like kept on wanting to get into the glory days and like would just get like tackled and like sacked like, and I was taking hits on stage and like I had main company members be like, you're not actually like, Like there's mats down. I'm like, no, I'm just taking it. You know, and it's like, I just love the pain of it. Like whatever I could do for a laugh, I would do it. You know, and like, and I also thought that like, I'm more funny when I'm drunk.

48:43Like there's those go together. Like that's not a thing. And thank God there's like not any, there wasn't iPhones back in 2016 when I was going to weddings. Cause you know, I was the guy who would like like put one sock on my foot and another sock on another appendage and then be like, anyone see my other sock? And women didn't like that. You know, like my buddies fiance's were like, Michael has a problem. And you know, it was just like, I just didn't wanna deal with it. I was like, this is what my heroes did. Like Farley got nude, like Farley did like big physical stuff and like Belushi, yeah.

49:22You can just list them off. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And ironically enough - In every art form too, that idea that drugs and alcohol are the portal to creativity. Like we know that that's not true, but it is a deeply entrenched thing. And the prospect of having to break up with that is terrifying. It's like an existential crisis. Like you're, I won't be able to do, I have to be willing to not be able to do this thing that I love that brought me here, that I'm so invested in, in order to save my life. A hundred percent. And like, ironically enough, the first book I read when I got sober was the Chris Farley show.

49:55And the book opens up with him talking to a group of addicts and saying, if he can do it, anybody can do it. And I was like, I had no idea that he, you know, like tried and like had time. And I read that page and I was like, okay, well, yeah, if he could do it, maybe I could do this, you know, like he wasn't just a, you know, crazy drunk person, you know, and ironically enough too, Tommy boy was completely sober and it's like the best performance I feel like. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. So this is like the quiet theme, you know, kind of lingering behind the scenes throughout the film. Yeah.

50:34That's like, you know, clawing at him. Yeah. The movie is set during six months of sobriety and that's one thing that Michael talked about a lot is how there aren't a lot of movies about early sobriety. There's movies about what it takes to get sober because all the wildness, you know, gets to come out in a film. But this movie really is about, you know, being early sober and still being an alcoholic and really not knowing how to do it. And, you know, there were so many poignant moments about that when Michael was telling me his personal story that made me want to tell this story. And, you know, one of them was, you know, his desperate fear of like never being funny again.

51:16that was your biggest fear in terms of getting sober is like being funny is everything that you were at the time and what you felt like you had to offer the world and if you're and if you are sober and you can't do that obviously you made the decision that it wasn't worth living in that moment but you know one of the things that's so amazing about Michael and probably the the linchpin of what really made me want to make this movie is when he told me about his suicide story and how the belt broke, he told me, because he was holding a little bit of holiday weight at the time. Which, you know, the wherewithal of a person to be in tears telling me about the day that he was supposed to die and also make a hilarious joke.

52:02I was like, if you don't mind, that's going in the movie. Of course, you know? And like, I realized when I would start, you know once I had gotten some time in sobriety and like you know would start sharing at meetings and such and like I would start like hearing the room laugh about the stuff and I was like oh like it's like the first time I heard laughter and sobriety was in the rooms you know and like seeing people like open up their heart but also like have a room full of alcoholics laughing at stuff or drug, you know, and it was just like, this is magic to me. Oh, I found that community that I have always wanted, you know, and like, I did not do it by myself either.

52:48Like a lot of people helped me get there, you know. Some of them happen to be mutual friends. Yes, yeah. Shout out Scotty G. Always Scotty G. I know he's listening and watching. Yeah. He comes up a lot. He's the best. And so at this point you have, so now what do you have like six or seven years? Seven years, yeah, seven years. Yeah. And it's been like, it truly has been like the most crazy experience ever. Like I was saying this the other day is like, all I ever wanted was, you know, get on SNL, get on TV show and like, that's it. And like, God, my God, whatever, you know, has taken me on this whole other journey where like I didn't think we were going to win the audience award I didn't think Baltimore Orleans was going to take me all over the world and all over the country to like show this movie like that's not what I had in mind at all and it's been so much better and like that's like the most magical thing to me is like getting to experience this movie with audiences and like hearing them die laughing at like like I just I sit in the theater and just like listen because it's just the cool because I don't know when I'm gonna have this experience again and I and you get to be present present yeah 100 % and like I'm like this kind of creep that like kind of sits in the back and it's just been like the most magical well it's also a an incredible lesson in in you know the idea that the worst thing that could happen to you is maybe the best thing that could happen you know getting fired from groundlings getting rejected by Saturday Night Live.

54:30You know, you've said to me several times that a lot of your friends who have gone on to be on Saturday Night Live have said it's the most traumatic experience, miserable traumatic experience. And I want a miserable life so bad. Like that's what I want. Like it's like, I wanna be - I gotta take this misery to the max. But it's a romantic misery. It is, it is. But you know, as you get to know people who are on Saturday Night Live, they're just like, almost didn't make it. And you've said several times, like you really don't think you would have made it. If I went there when I was still drinking, I would be dead.

54:59Yeah. There's no doubt in my mind because I would have enjoyed the part. I mean, it would have been the party and everything. Well, it would have ratcheted up what you were already doing at Groundlings Sunday Company tenfold. Yeah. You're on national television. And in your mind, I gotta be high as hell for this to be good. Yeah. And they're not sleeping. They're not doing any of that stuff. It's always easy to look through the rear view mirror and say, oh yeah, these horrible things that happened. And, you know, or, you know, you needed those in order to become the person that you are today. But of course they're true also, like these traumatic experiences that create all that suffering are grist for transformation.

55:38And on some level, the universe is like, no, you don't get to get that because like you're fucked up, dude, you know? And until you snap out of it and start, you know, figuring yourself out, like, you know, we're gonna deprive you of these things because you're not ready for them. You're not prepared for them. I think the thing that gets lost, like we live in a town where there's a lot of inspirational stories of great artists who were sort of under the belief that like drugs and alcohol were required in order for them to like share their gift. They get sober and then their careers blossom, right?

56:12But as anybody who's like in these rooms knows, like the only thing that, you know, you are guaranteed for not drinking and using is to be sober. You know, it's not like you do it to get these things, but you're provided with the opportunity to, you know, become this more self-actualized person. And that puts you in a position to become available for a bigger and more beautiful life. Like you get the chance to chase your dream because of that, but you're not guaranteed the dream. A hundred percent. I mean, like I heard other people share their morning routines in those rooms and I stole those morning routines from people.

56:54You know, like I get up every day at four and I get on my knees, I make a prayer, I do my meditation, I journal, I read a new chapter of a book every day. I go to the gym and exercise and then I work for an hour on my work, whatever that is, writing, you know. and then I hit a meeting every single day and that's all before 8.30 a.m. And all that stuff, I feel like is, again, the only way I'm allowed to do that is because I'm sober. And I think like when I put sobriety first, then the rest of the stuff, the cash and prizes don't come, but you can actually work hard and get the things. Or get the things that you want, the dreams that you want, you go and chase them yourself with sobriety on your back.

57:39And then the challenge becomes when you get your dream, which you're getting right now, how do you maintain sobriety as your first priority and not suddenly become captured by all the kind of fancy things that are going to be dangled in front of your face now? Well, I've got - Stay grounded. I got a lot of people that keep me humble. Without the groundlings. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I got a lot of people that keep me humble. you know, like I've got a great core group of friends that like, you know, just are there for me. And I also like, I help out a lot of people by offering my time and sponsorship, you know, and you know, I personally love when I get a phone call from anyone because it gets me out of my own self and gets me out of like, why am I not going out for that?

58:27You know, all the stuff that the the industry that I'm in can take up my whole entire day and get me all crazy. Instead, find a way to be of service. And that can be with my partner, with everybody. But another cool thing is like the movie had like all my family in it. So like they keep me grounded a lot too. And they're like, yeah, you're just from Baltimore. You're not anything that big. But - Although I think their eyes were pretty wide open at South by Southwest. Yes, yes. Did they all come for the - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it was so funny. I'll do this real quick story. My mom's sitting one seat over from me and she's in the first five minutes of the movie.

59:09She plays Darlene, Brittany's mom, and she's watching and she comes on screen and she just goes, oh. She forgot. She was in it. She was in it, yeah, yeah. And I was like, come on, mom. And then my dad came to another screening and my dad and my stepmom were so sweet. they came to the Saturday one and my dad is just in my ear going, there's Marty, there's Allison, there's, oh, there's Chris. And I'm like, dad, this is not a private screening. You can't just be saying everybody that you're seeing on the screen. Like, and then it was just so cool. Cause like, and like, in all honesty, like this is what's going to keep like that whole day on Saturday, we got to do press and do all these things like that I've never done before, take pictures and you know get to do all that it was it was a blast the coolest thing about doing that whole was having my family next to me and like watching this movie that we worked so hard on like seeing that was like that's my dreams like my mom's finally seeing her son up there on the big screen and like that's that keeps me here you know um except for your brother yeah who who wasn't able to make it.

1:00:23Yeah. Which is another big piece in all of this. Yeah. Yeah, that was, you know, that was a year into my sobriety. I had a year and two days and I got a phone call from my dad. And my dad said, Zach is no longer among the living. And, you know, like I didn't know what to do. So I called up my sponsor. he came over he helped me book a flight um I went home and like I put my one year chip in the gasket with Zach because he had time in the program too and I just like showed up and be of service you know how can I help people there um and it was brutal you know like he was 33 it's like the same age as like you know farley and belushi and like and he really tried at this and like that's the thing is like i don't understand why i get it and he doesn't and um you know when i came back to la i went to my meeting and um i just like was the first hand end up raised and I just shared, I just went back to Baltimore.

1:01:42I just, you know, I had to bury my brother and I went back to my seat and the guy that had his arms wrapped around me was my friend, Zach. And like, that's God to me, you know, that's Zach saying I'm okay up there or wherever he is, you know, is that.

1:02:06Yeah, it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a messed up disease. and you know, like it's been riddled in my family. Like my granddad died in an accident, the car accident was drinking and driving, you know?

1:02:27And, but if I can stay sober, then if people that need it in my family, they have someone to call, you know, and I can change the, and it's not, I don't wanna have ego involved with like changing the narrative of a family, but like, I just love being sober so much that I, you know. Well, you get to be a living example and that's powerful in interrupting that kind of generational, you know, kind of continuation of this pattern. But there's real beauty and humility and not being like, oh, I got sober and I moved to Hollywood and now I'm doing my thing. Like the movie is a love letter to Baltimore and to like these people, like real people are in it.

1:03:20People that you know. Mostly real people. Yeah, my whole family. Maybe because you didn't have to pay them, but it gives it a real authenticity, you know? And I think that there is a maturity and a humility in your performance because on some level, like as a comedian, Like there is a flex, like you're gonna do your thing and you've got like your bits and stuff like that. But you're never over your skis on it. Like it's never in a like, hey, look at me showy way. Like it's always very, you know, integrated and germane to, you know, character development and plot. And it just felt like a less mature performer, given this opportunity would be like, you know, kind of, okay, I'm gonna go, I'm taking it all the way, you know?

1:04:08And there was that sense of like, this guy could probably, you know, push the accelerator on this and he's not doing that. That's him. Yeah. Or he's holding you back from that. He's saving you from that fate. Well, he just kind of like, he gave me the best acting note I've ever gotten where it was just like, and it's such a, he just said, you're enough. Like, you're great. Like, just stay in it. Just be you, just be real. I mean, that's the greatest compliment is, you know, is that the comedy is germane to the story. Because, you know, what I've found over the years, at least for the kinds of movies that I make, is that if I can tell a real honest story and it's dramatic and people are behaving very naturally, the comedy that emanates from that, it just, it lives in the heart.

1:04:58You know what I mean? It's not like brain comedy. I mean, because, of course, like a gag is a gag and we'll always laugh. But like when the comedy lives in the heart, it just like resonates and it's additive over time. You know, it just builds over time when you love that person more and more. And I think it works both ways. I think comedy also opens hearts. So it's like a symbiotic relationship. But I mean, Michael trusted me and he's inherently just funny. He's just funny to watch. It's funny to watch him do stuff. And that's what we really did is just created scenarios for him to operate in and for him to be desperate in those scenarios.

1:05:39Because, you know, you certainly in the first six months of sobriety have not shed your desperation yet. And if anything, it's at a fever pitch because you don't have the alcohol to mask it. Obviously, you're desperate when you're an alcoholic. But, you know, so we were just trying to capture that. And, you know, that's a great compliment. I appreciate that.

1:06:04One of the more popular podcast episodes of the last five years was the one I did on the benefits of sprouting with my very energetic longtime buddy, Doug Evans, who at the time, this was back in June of 2020, had just released a bestselling book on the subject called The Sprout Book. And has kind of gone on from there to become this sort of chief evangelist of the entire planet on all matter sprouting. He really hit a nerve in that conversation because ever since then, ever since it aired, I've just been inundated with people sharing photos of their sprouting setups, kitchens turned into beautiful sprouting farms, and all these stories of health transformations Doug's message set in motion.

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1:09:36Jay, I really need to know what happened to your career as a running influencer and content creator. There was a stretch there where you were like sharing your runs every day on Instagram. Yeah. And that seems to have precipitously dropped off. Yeah, I was doing a daily run log. I mean, so first of all, my dad was a marathoner. I grew up under like, you know, he, he was a marathoner in the late seventies and like the special American heyday of American distance running. I mean, now we're in a bigger heyday, but, um, I was just obsessed with it. I ran in high school. I didn't run in college. Um, I went to university of Texas and it was kind of like one of the few schools that I couldn't run at.

1:10:19But yeah, I kind of came back to running. I mean, I've always run on and off my whole life, but yeah, I was trying to really make a comeback and run every day. And I drove my body into the ground mainly just because I'm, as we were talking, I'm a workaholic and, you know, I don't have a lot of wiggle room in my life in general. Like there's just, you know, being married, I got two kids, you know, I have a partnership with my brother. I'm making a lot of movies. I'm mentoring other people to help them make movies. You got dogs? I got two dogs. I, you know, it's just, it, I just got really beat up.

1:10:55And our common friend, Alexi Pappas has actually offered to like coach me. And I was like, I don't know if I can go there yet. You know what I mean? Cause it creates a little bit of a accountability, you know, that you might not be able to live up to, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not sure I could live up to it, but I do love it. It's like, it's kind of my church. I mean, right now it's just walking and jogging and just trying to get out in nature as much as possible. But I did have a lot of people loving just seeing someone run every day. It was a weird, there's nothing super special about it, but I think there was something accountability wise about it.

1:11:36It's just like you wake up and this one guy is going to run every day, which I did for about six months. And then I was like, honestly, my body just broke down and I didn't have the wherewithal or the time or the energy to get the supports to move through it and to take care of myself as I did it, which is, you know, that's what you need to do if you wanna run every day. Well, this is the dilemma for the ambitious, you know, successful person, you know, who wants to, you know, do all things and is very capable in many ways. But, you know, you strike me as somebody who over commits themselves. Like when you look at your IMDb, like I thought I had a beat on like all your projects.

1:12:15And I was like, I haven't heard of 80 % of these shows that you executive produce. Like it's insane. Neither am I. How many things you're involved with. So like you live inside a very crowded mind, I would imagine. Yeah, I definitely like my brother and I, you know, we grew up in the suburbs of New Orleans and we, you know, we, we loved movies growing up. We were obsessed with everything coming down the pipe of HBO. It was like a momentous day. The day that cable came to our neighborhood, we didn't know what it meant. We thought like literally a big cable was going to be laid across our lawns to bring all these wonderful television shows and movies in particular.

1:12:57But at that time when we were growing up, it was New Orleans. So we basically thought the only way to be an artist was to be like a 60-year-old blues black man, you know, touring Europe. We tried to do that. We failed at that. And then, you know, we went whole hog into movies. And honestly, it felt like, I guess a little bit like immigrants to film culture because, you know, we weren't Coppola kids. We didn't know anybody who made movies. We had no idea how we would access it. We were just, you know, making movies on VHS in the eighties when we were kids, but we had this kind of lucky moment where I went to the university of Texas in 1991.

1:13:46And this is when Robert Rodriguez, um, and Richard Linklater had each had made a$20 ,000 feature film and we didn't have$20 ,000, but that was an amount of money that we can like get our heads around like, oh, that's seems doable one day. And Rick and Robert were also guys who were walking around Austin, Texas, wearing jeans and t-shirts and going to coffee shops and talking about movies. And, and, and so that's what kind of like birthed this idea that we could come into this world and like make films and maybe have a career doing it. But, you know, it still felt far away. So this is all just to say that we feel like we don't belong.

1:14:35I know you've had that journey too. It's just like, what am I doing here? We feel like we invented this thing that we're doing because we kind of were the first generation of like DV filmmakers who, you know, our first feature film, The Puffy Chair was$10 ,000. I mean, it was like shot digitally and literally was the story of our lives in that moment, very Sean Baker style in that moment, which is like, this is all the money we have. And this is the only story we have to offer, you know, which is just like our pathetic desperation around wanting to be successful and what it means to be in a relationship in your 20s, which is what that film was about.

1:15:16So yeah, I've spent a lot of time putting my head down and just like not allowing myself to really come up for air. And now that I'm 50, I'm like, okay, how can I turn off that impulse, that desperate instinct to just create and to be successful because volume was a big part. Like you were saying, volume was a big part of us finding our way because we wanted to be the Coen brothers. I mean, that's what everybody wanted to be in the early 90s coming up as filmmakers. We failed at that. They're very good at what they do, by the way. Like, don't try to be the Coen brothers, you know? So it just took us a long time to figure out our style and what we uniquely had to offer.

1:16:09and I'm 52 now and I'm still having a really hard time turning off that desperate impulse to just continuously make things. And, you know, I mean, this year has been amazing. I've acted in a bunch of stuff, but literally four months ago, I had no prospects for any work whatsoever. I had no jobs. That's hard to believe. No, truly, I had no offers at least. I mean, there's always possibilities and I can create stuff for myself, but I had no offers. So, I mean, I was talking to Michael about it like four months ago, I was like. I was like, you're gonna be fine, bud, don't worry. But I, you know, I had no way, I had no guarantee to make money.

1:16:50So that's kind of what I'm struggling with right now. A story that works, like how do you figure that out? You know, how do you know when the story is working, when it is heartfelt and all of those things? Like this is a, this is like a very difficult, um, art form that I think people, uh, fail to fully appreciate. That's nice. I, um, I agree with you. And I think that there is a sort of like misperception and that's why there's so much challenge in Hollywood is that, you know, because we all watch movies, we can make movies, but it's, it is an incredibly complex art form. and very specifically what you're saying, like the plot of a movie that's actually gonna work.

1:17:38And part of that is a lot of experience and a lot of failure. A lot of failure on my part in making movies that had some fun things and some great scenes and they were funny and stuff, but in the end, it didn't get you there. It didn't really deliver something that made you look at life in a whole new way. I mean, it's an incredibly tall order. and that's where I spend most of my time is just conceiving a movie, conceiving like what is the structure of a movie? What is the scaffolding that's gonna build, that's gonna pay off when you get there? And then the rest of it is like sobriety. It is constant vigilance and nudges and creating positivity and jumping off of cliffs when you don't know if there's going to be warm water down there.

1:18:28It might be jagged rocks. And, and, and like you guys are saying, like being an exemplar for everybody else as a director, you know, I think one of the best things that you can do is just like, is just like, um, shore yourself up with confidence in the morning, not the kind of confidence that's like fake or whatever, but just that, just like, I believe in this movie, I believe in what we're doing. And when you believe in what you're doing and you go forth with love, it creates itself, you know? So it really is, especially on a tiny movie where, you know, you're just kind of wandering around Baltimore and you're parking a white van.

1:19:09Were you running and gunning or were you, did you have permits and stuff like that? I mean, there are scenes where cars are driving and there's no other cars around. So I assume that you - No control whatsoever. Now the amazing - Shut the streets down or something, no? I mean, that's one of the, no shutting streets, nothing was shut down. We have a scene that was filmed on what's called 34th Street in Baltimore, which is a Christmas tree avenue where all these houses light their houses up and people are just walking around and we just shot there. And we did dialogue replacement. We did all kinds of stuff.

1:19:40But the amazing thing about Baltimore is that a permit to shoot on the street for a month is$65. $45. $45. Yeah, yeah,$45. And I told Mark and my producers back in LA, and they were like,$45 a day is incredible. I'm like,$45 total. $45 total for the entire month. So as long as you are not in a street, as long as, so it's a very friendly place to shoot a movie. And that was a big part of it too, is just like being out of LA, which people are talking about it a lot right now. LA has become very bloated. it's become very expensive. The permits are expensive. If you want to shoot in a drugstore in LA, it costs like$30 ,000 because everyone's savvy and so many big things have shot here.

1:20:24So part of the movie was also just going to Baltimore so that we could have summer camp and make a movie together on the download. But I mean, for sure, we were in some questionable neighborhoods at three in the morning. And I mean, we did some crazy things. We had to get a Cadillac from a trailer park where there was some - And I was like, I'm gonna get J. Duplass killed right here. Well, it's sort of the meta story to the kind of after hours aspect of this movie. Like there is a sort of, you know, it all takes place. Like there's this weird adventure at night and they're encountering all different kinds of people.

1:21:01Yes, yeah. Well, and like, even like, you know, the house at the end of the movie, we had to get like another black door, like that matched, well, I don't wanna give anything away, but just had to match doors. And I look over at this woman kind of coming out of the door and I look at her door, I was like, okay, that's a black door. And I was like, AJ, I'm gonna ask this woman if we can use her house for the end shot. And went over and I was like, hey, we're shooting a movie down there. Like, is there any way we could use your front door and to be the exterior? She was like, yeah, I'm just hanging out all day.

1:21:31Love to help out. So like the end of the movie was just like - That would never happen in LA. It would never happen in LA. She was like rearranging plants on people's stoops for us. She hung out with Liz like the whole afternoon. Yeah, like our lead actress was like... Didn't they get each other's number? It was freezing cold. So she was able to... We used her bathroom. I mean, it was just the whole shoot was an all night adventure in Baltimore, just like the movie is. It was like, you know, art, our life mimicking art actually, you know, it was like a weird cycle. And people saying, I mean, that's not corny, but people saying like, yes, and how can I help?

1:22:07And, you know, like, But that's what I, I mean, I feel like I learned so much about producing from Jay was just like, just call, see what they say. You know, the worst thing anyone's gonna say is no. So you might as well just take a shot. And, you know, that's - I took a lot of shots. You took a lot of shots. You mentioned that for you, Baltimore is much more hairspray than The Wire. I mean, you know, John Waters is the ambassador of Baltimore. He's the king. Like he's, yeah, like there's no contest here. And he went to a screening, yeah. He was in P-Town. Had you met him before? First time ever.

1:22:38He's met my niece because my mom used to work at the store limited, which is a old store in Baltimore that shut down this year. But he took a picture with my niece at six months old. So we have a picture of John with the baby and then now me and John, but you know, she, you know he would come into the store a lot. And when I first went to LA, my mom was like - Does he like dress up just when he's like walking around? Yeah, I wanna know what he's wearing on a Tuesday. Like what is a day in the life? I mean, very similar like this jacket probably like something like this, like cozy. He's not wearing a Nascot in like a purple kimono.

1:23:11He does. He did get a scarf for his mom like every year for Christmas there. Like that's what he would always do. But my mom be my mom. She was like, you know, my son just moved out to Los Angeles. Do you have any advice for him? He wants to be an actor. And he goes, yeah, tell him to get another hobby. Did you tell him that story when you met him? I did. And then he went, I don't know if I said that. And I was like, you did. My mom would not, yeah. But yeah, he was like, I mean - Those are the moments, man. Well, and he came to the screening and he sat during the Q &A and everything. And he asked a question during the Q &A, which was like so cool.

1:23:47He was like, how did you film on 34th street? I've been wanting to shoot there forever. How'd you do it? The technical question. The technical question, yeah. And I was like, we had a permit that we could shoot on the street and it was all good. And he was like, oh man, I wish I thought of that. And then he asked about the key bridge because the key bridge is in it. and that's that's the bridge that came down like a few months after we shot it yeah I forgot about that yeah it's wild that we have a sort of iconic it's sort of our Manhattan Bridge or Brooklyn Bridge shot as an ode to Baltimore which is the key bridge which you insisted on getting even though we were it was 18 degrees in the middle of the night and I was like let's get it let's get it we gotta get this shot and it's the most it's one of my favorite shots of the movie because it just looks so beautiful and it's Christmas Eve night and it's just like stunning.

1:24:35And he asked, he was like, how early on before, like how many months ago did you shoot that before it fell? And I was like two months in December. And he was like, you know, the Wall Street Journal called me asking for comment when the bridge fell. And I was like, what do you want me to say? I've driven on it. I was like, that's great. But yeah, it's like, it's the coolest thing to like have somebody that's a legend of mine growing up and seeing all his movies and like him coming to a screening of Baltimore Islands was like, yeah, it's really beautiful. Yeah, next level. What are some of your storytelling or filmmaking rules, you know, that might be, you know, interesting for the average person who's just a movie watcher, you know, when it comes to like, cause I asked you about like what makes a great story or how do you know when you have a great story?

1:25:26I mean, my first rule is make movies, not meetings. all the kids that come to me and they want to pick my brain and they're like how do you get it done and I'm like you make movies and their fear is that they're not ready and that they're going to be bad and and and my answer is always yes they are they're going to be bad and you know to dispel the myth that someone wakes up in the morning they go to the bathroom and either a great movie comes out or or or bad movie comes out you know I think it's it is still relatively a new art form So for instance, you know, if you knew, if you had friends who went to art school and were painters in college, like there's not a painter in the world that would expect to sell a painting until they've done at least 500.

1:26:11You know what I mean? At least for like a decent amount of money. Maybe your friend will be nice to you and give you 50 bucks. You know what I mean? But that's a given that as a painter, you're going to paint 500 paintings before you're actually going to be up in a gallery and people are going to buy your paintings for thousands of dollars, for instance. So, you know, I try to tell people just make bad art. Make a lot of bad art. I thought I was going to be the Coen brothers. I thought that's what I wanted to be. It turns out stylistically, I'm the total opposite. I shoot in a documentary style.

1:26:42I work with no control. I'm out in the street in Baltimore trying not to get shot while I'm like running down the street filming this man, you know. And that had to be – I had to be hit over the head with that. I had to – you know, my sort of origin story for finding out what I uniquely had to offer the world was when I was ready to quit and my brother was like, we're shooting something today. and we got a tiny video camera and we shot this short film about him trying to perfect the personal greeting of his answering machine and failed to do so and had a nervous breakdown because that's what happened to me the week before.

1:27:20For people who aren't intimately familiar with your career though, what gets missed in that is the fact that, yeah, you didn't become the Coen brothers. You know, like you're of the generation, you know, there's the Soderbergh, there are these like rockstar directors, right? And like the aspiring director is like someday, you know, and you're, when you don't know what your thing is or your style is yet, you're gonna of course like copy the people who inspire you. But by just like, hey, we were shooting today, no matter what, you guys are responsible in large part for actually creating an entire new genre called mumblecore.

1:27:59Like, I don't know what your relationship or feelings are about that now, but the Coen brothers can't say that. Yeah, it is odd that we are the godfathers of a filmmaking movement that we didn't make up ourselves. You know, it's we - But anybody who would create a genre or a movement didn't do so because they were trying to. It was authentic, like sort of outgrowth of whatever it was they were just doing. Like the press and film professors essentially decide what happened. But yeah, we were at the very early stages of the first time digital video became good enough to look at to where you could actually broadcast it, you know, and you could actually transfer it to film and it would look decent.

1:28:48So we were, I mean, honestly, it can be, and that's a testament to just staying the course. But like the moment we made our first decent film was the same time that they came out with this camera called the Panasonic AGDVX100. I still know it to this day, even though that number is ridiculous because it was a revolution for myself and for so many other people. And oddly enough, I mean, we premiered the Puffy Chair at Sundance, but it was oddly enough at South by Southwest that four or five other filmmakers just like Mark and me were there with movies shot on that very same camera. and there were movies that were very specifically about our lives and the stories that we had to offer.

1:29:33No one was there with a movie that cost more than$20 ,000 and the press got a hold of it and they were like, something is happening. Something is clearly happening here. And at the time it felt weird because we were just trying to make a movie that didn't suck, frankly. That's what we were trying to do. But it was incredible at the time because we got written up in the New York Times as part of a movement and we were being called the godfathers of the movement because our movie had a lot of legs to it. And that was odd. And now we're in a lot of textbooks. I have a lot of professors calling and they want to interview us because they're writing something strictly academic.

1:30:24and they want to talk to us about it. So it's very cool. It's very dreamy. But you know what's wild about it is like, you know, I wanted to be the Coen brothers, but I also love John Cassavetes and I always wanted to, I just thought it'd be so cool to be like iconic, but as I'm in it, I don't feel that way. I'm still just trying to make a movie that doesn't suck. They would say the same, I'm sure. I think so. I think so. I mean, because even the greats, I mean, the Coen brothers have some questionable films out there, you know, and it is such a tough form. I know, how dare me, I know. But it is such a difficult form.

1:31:03And I think, you know, you got to have beginner's mindset. You have to have it because no matter what movie you're making, you're this close to making a movie that doesn't work. You know, everything has to really come together for something to be beautiful and transcendent and funny and heartfelt and all the things that you want a movie to be. Has there ever been a movie or a show that you've been involved in or that you were making where there wasn't a moment where you were like, this is a fucking disaster. Like, this is never gonna work. Or that first cut or whatever where you're like - There's never been a moment.

1:31:40This is never going to come together. It always comes at some point where you're like, oh no. oh no, this is maybe not gonna work. We had that moment with the Baltimore Ons, our critical scene, which is filmed at a comedy club where Michael and Liz, our two leads go up on stage and essentially flop and have to figure out how to work their way out of a bad sketch, essentially. That scene, we filmed it. It was our toughest scene. We spent two days and two nights filming that scene and it didn't work. It did not work. And it wasn't a disaster. Like I would say it made the movie a B. And Michael and I were like, we want an A plus, we will not, you know.

1:32:29And so we went back to Baltimore in the middle of the summer to re-film that scene, but it took us months to reconceive it and to figure out what that scene really needed to be. it's really the linchpin of the whole movie. And what was the unlock? Like what was the shift that you realized would make it work? The unlock, which is a little inside baseball, but when you see the film, you'll know, was ultimately that like, you know, you learn about these movies tell you what they need as you go along and the more you can respond, the better. But what we learned is that, you know, Michael's character helped Liz through the most challenging thing she could imagine doing, which was to go to her ex-husband's house during Christmas and face everyone so that she could be with her daughter and her granddaughter.

1:33:22And it's just something that was unimaginable to her. And we realized that that scene from Michael was the moment where Liz would be there for him. And that them just yes-anding each other and staying on stage, which you know during this movie going back on stage is the thing that he feels like he can't do that's over that part of his life is over so she helps him rediscover ultimately that he can be funny sober and that and then when it's over he realizes that it's actually better than it's ever been so you know we there were some widgets in that scene that were really challenging in terms of like, originally he was funny in the scene, but what we realized is that he had to fail and that she needed to show up for him and the way he showed up for her.

1:34:11So that was a tough reshoot. It was like a hundred degrees in that room in the summer. I had to cut all my high school buddies that were in the last scene. Yeah. It definitely works, but yeah, the movie pivots on that. Like Like he's gotta be the guy. Like unless he crushes that scene, she's not on board for the whole other part of the movie that follows. A hundred percent. And it really - Had to build more. Yeah. And I'm very confident that we would not have won the audience award at South by Southwest if we had not reshot that tough thing. And it was our most expensive scene. We only had 30 or 40 extras.

1:34:50I know it sounds tiny, but it's a lot. you know, and, you know, we did pay, I mean, we paid everyone minimally, but we did pay everybody our SAG minimums just because, you know, we wanna be, you know, above board. We can't do what we did on Puffy Chair, you know, where you just - Your parents were in it and they - Yeah, well, we still did your parents in it, but we did pay them. Yes, exactly. If you were making Puffy Chair today or you were, you know, where you were at, you know, prior to making that movie, but you know, it's today. Like you guys become YouTubers. Oh yeah, we're YouTubers. You're like, oh yeah.

1:35:28Like you would just be making stuff all the time. Like you're, this is the ethos. Like you're just making stuff all the time. Like, you know, moving forward, moving forward, moving forward. Like, you know, it would have been, you know, immediately obvious that like YouTube was gonna be the place where you were gonna tell your story. A hundred percent. It would be YouTube. And in fact, our agents at CAA have recommended many, many times that we start a YouTube channel. I would watch whatever you guys. That's really nice. I mean, maybe that will happen one day, but I think the tricky part too is that if you create a YouTube channel and you run a YouTube channel, you become the manager of a television channel or a web channel.

1:36:09Yeah, exactly. It's a whole thing. It's a whole thing. And if you're gonna do it. Absolutely. And the thing that I think I've realized more than anything about my life is that my childhood dream of being a writer director has never changed. I've flexed and I've accidentally become an actor and I've had to produce my movies so that they could be made the way that I need them to be made. And then of course, I've been lucky enough to work with a lot of up and coming young people and all kinds of different voices and help them do their thing. But I think in like the sort of like back nine of my career, I'm realizing this is what I really want to do is write and direct films.

1:36:54And, um, and so just, um, I want to put all my creative energy into that, you know, because that giving everything you've got in that is, you know, there's still no guarantee that you can keep going. Sure. Michael, I'm curious about your perspective on this. You know, we're in this weird era right now where, you know, movies and television are up in the air. Movies are dead. People aren't going to the theaters. And yet when you turn on your smart TV, it's just like, you just can't believe how much choice you have. Like, and, and, and people are saying like, oh, you know, like there's no jobs. Everyone's out of work in LA.

1:37:33And then you're like, yeah, but who's making the 7 ,000 shows that, you know, seem to seem to premiere every week across all of these platforms. So it's a bizarre time, like, you know, the economic model, you know, behind all of this, the engine is, is very much, you know, in transition. But because the gatekeepers have been completely removed, at least, you know, on platforms like YouTube, you have an entire generation of young people who are just making stuff all the time and they're learning intuitively how to tell a good story or what works or what doesn't. And like, you're making these short videos on, you know, your social media and all of that, which you have to imagine is going to create a lot of really talented creators who will eventually go on to to make feature films or, you know, series television or whatever.

1:38:29We're already seeing some people do that. Who are those Australian brothers? Talk to me, yeah, talk to me. Directors. Those guys, like they're like a hot new thing. They have that, don't they have a movie coming out soon? It was out in June. Oh no, the - It's with, what's her face? I know what you're talking about. I haven't seen the movie. It was great, it was great. And Ava Victor, who has Sorry Baby, it's the big hit out of Sundance this year. She got a A24 release. and she originally was an Instagram influencer who turns out is an incredible filmmaker. Yeah, but what we haven't seen is what your agent suggested that you guys do.

1:39:06Like see like legitimate veteran filmmakers, directors who have been in Hollywood forever, go to YouTube and make some interesting, cool stuff. We've done it on a less extreme scale because our fourth and fifth movies were Hollywood movies. They were Fox Searchlight and Paramount movies. They were seven and a half and$10 million respectively. And at that point in time, we realized, man, we actually enjoy making the little ones better and they make us just as much money because we own them. Of course, they're big risks. But, you know, so we kind of like receded from like that Hollywood pathway.

1:39:55The idea is like you go to Sundance with a couple of films and then you start working with Searchlight and then you start working with, you move up to Focus. You know what I mean? It's like a very, very clear path of what a lot of people did, but not really a lot, like, you know, 25 people because it's a very narrow corridor. Well, now it's just a pipeline to Marvel or DC. That's absolutely what it was. And my brother and I definitely got offered some really big, crazy stuff that we turned down because we realized, you know, yeah, we were courted by Marvel. We were courted by like the Fokker franchise.

1:40:33We were courted by, you know, we were offered The Dictator to direct. There were a lot of people who were very interested in us, not only because we did good dramatic comedy, but we were known as like really good guys who could work with challenging people if need be, you know, because that's a huge part of those franchisees. It's a very underrated skill and nobody thinks about it, but you get in Hollywood and you start hearing about it real fast. And, you know, and you feel it, you know, like a lot of these big comedies, for instance, are not about making the best movie. You have a franchise and your job is not, of course they want it to be as funny and as heartfelt as it can be.

1:41:16But your job is actually moving a movie from A to Z over the course of three years without anybody murdering anybody else. You know what I mean? And there are a lot of directors that are known for - Murder. Yeah. And there've been personality management, you know, and that was really tough for Mark and me because, you know, big studios didn't really want to make exactly what we wanted to make at a higher budget. They wanted to suck us up into their world and use our skills to like, essentially get their franchises made, you know, without murder. And ultimately we turned away from that because we just did not, you know, we just wanted to make original art and we had suffered so much and come so far.

1:42:05You know, we were like, let's go back to our little, pond that we swim in. It's pretty rare that a director could step into that and maintain a singular vision. Like, Ryan Coogler can do it, Christopher Nolan did it, but there's a lot of people who kind of got chewed up in that whole thing. But like the money is giant. I read something your brother had said, I think it was in a Variety article, it was like, Jay could get offered$500 ,000 to be an actor and acts. But if this other project that's gonna pay him$150 is just 10 % better, he'll do that every time. And then like, you know, like how do you prevent yourself from making those compromises?

1:42:52Especially it's like, you know, it's expensive to live. You've got kids and all that. I got kids in LA. Even like the greatest artists, they'll go out and do the one so that they can like put their kids through college or buy their beach house or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, keeping my expenses low, I don't buy stuff. I just don't buy stuff. I just want to make stuff. I think having an aesthetic mentality, which I had to have for my first 10 years of my career. I came up in Austin, Texas, making$15 ,000 a year because that was what I needed to make to keep doing my thing. but it's also just my temperament.

1:43:28Like I just, I wanna be a part of beautiful transcendent art. And I have learned that, you know, what you do begets what you get. You know, if you make, if you are a part of something incredible, people look to that and they will hire you on something beautiful, you know, going forward. So I don't know. I mean, it's partially, is just like I'm an art Nazi too. I mean, I just like, I just, all I want to do is make art and I want it to be as great as it can be. And, you know, it's, it is challenging at times and, you know, we live on the East side and we keep our expenses low. And I mean, that, that's, that's been an interesting part of it too, because people think that I have way more money than I have because they look at like the IMDB situation.

1:44:16I'm like, no, my wealth is in the quality of the stuff that I get to make, you know, and I do make a good living and I feel good about it. At least five figures. I mean, but for real, like, you know, what happens in Hollywood is you make a lot of money and people start fishing around if they could maybe sue you. That happens sometimes too. Like, you know, I can't mention things that have happened, but people have sniffed around and figured out how much money we actually have. And they're like, oh, what's that? Your litigation Yeah, this is why. This is a little PSA, stay away. There's nothing to get, you know?

1:44:53I mean, but it is a part of the philosophy of just like, I'm just here to make great art. And that's what allowed me to survive too, is just like doing the volume and just making great stuff. How do you balance having a singular artistic vision with the fact that it is a collaborative medium? and also a medium in which it's important to, you know, take feedback from the right people. I mean, this is like an anything, like you run your decisions by other people, you know, before you make them, especially when you're early sobriety. They're like, you should get engaged. And I was like, okay, I can do it.

1:45:33Early and often that like, maybe your idea isn't the best idea. You know, Jay doesn't suffer from that problem, but there is a balance between like, this is my vision and this is what I'm doing. And the fact that there's a lot of other people involved and sometimes feedback makes the project better. And in this case, you know, the story was a collaborative work between the two of you. Yeah, I mean, he was, you're the most collaborative person I've ever worked with. Like it truly this man has no ego and it's like the craziest thing is like, or just an ego that I don't see. um you know like there were no bad ideas like he was like yeah let's throw that in and like and after several drafts of writing some of that stuff left you know and then but like he really does make it make it ours coming together first and then it's the cast and crew that you know before every single day we get this is what i've never done this but jay sets up like a lineup where everyone's like he just is like anybody want to say anything to start it off do a prayer circle Yeah.

1:46:40You know, just to get the day going. And it's like, it's also because, you know, that I do that because making a movie feels like war, you know, and you're trying to like put laughs and heartbreak into a war zone. It can't survive, you know, so I try to create, you know, just socially a world where everybody is welcome and everybody, you know, if somebody comes to work and their dog died that day, let's hear it because that needs to, that's part of a culture that I, that I, you know, really learned with the transparent, the television show that was on. But, but yeah, I mean, wait, what were we talking about?

1:47:17Just collaborating and like having a vision. Having a vision. I mean, look, I, I think this is how I really feel about it is the best movies are made by dictators who are very benign and who include everybody else in the process. And, we talked about it earlier. I do believe in serving my audience. And in particular with this story, I believe in serving Michael's story. So the way that I think about it, and maybe this is like tip number two for up and coming filmmakers is, when you start a movie, that movie is a hundred percent yours, or in this case, it's Michael's and mine. It's his story that I'm telling and we're telling together, and it is a hundred percent ours.

1:48:04and then every step of the way, it becomes a little bit less. You know, we hire a DP, we hire a producer and their feedback comes in and we include that and it belongs to them now. And then over time, we have a test screening. You have a test screening down here and now it's, you know, smart people are coming in and telling us what's working, what's not working. And at the very end, the movie no longer belongs to us. And if you have done your job right as a director, it belongs 100 % to the audience. So I think the process of making the film is learning how to land this plane in the hearts and minds of audience members, because we've already done our thing.

1:48:49You know what I mean? It's just like, we've already hugged and cried and laughed and high fives and almost got shot in Baltimore. You know what I mean? And then by the end, if it doesn't belong 100 % to a stranger in a dark room, that you will never have a conversation with. You're not really doing your job. And I think I had, you know, the beginning of my career, I was co-directing with my brother. So we didn't have that auteurship. It was already, we were in receiving mode, you know, and that's what I, you know, you see something, you know how you feel about it, but you got to talk to somebody else about it too.

1:49:26And that really helped train me. And so when I get on set, But it's less about, this is how I wanted it. I want it to be exactly that way. You're not doing what I want. It's more about sitting back as an audience member. And sometimes it's really comfortable. You have a comfy video village and there's a tent around you. But sometimes you're just standing on a street in Baltimore and there's questionable activity going on in the street nearby you. And you have a monitor this big and you have to really get in your mind and be like, I'm in a movie theater in Pasadena in two years. How is this affecting me?

1:50:00And, you know, that's what I let lead me is like, I guess, like being possessed by the audience that will come. That's the communication. That's what we all forget is this is a communication between Michael and me and strangers in a room that are two or three years away. And that is a weird, long-winded thing to do. But the more that you just keep that in mind. And you're the first audience watching on the monitor. I'm the first audience, yeah. And if you're not entertained. If I'm not entertained, we gotta change it. Yeah. There's something about that that's curious though, because this sort of openness that you have to have, this is a kind of expansive relationship with the thing and being able to kind of imagine what it's gonna look like down the road.

1:50:49How does that match up with like, I think maybe you're kind of prone to obsessiveness, like you have obsessions, right? Right, like nobody is doing all these different things unless they like get obsessed with something and just like, you know, so. It's way too hard. But those are two different energies, right? They are, they are. Like the obsessiveness could make you that dictatorial kind of director. Yeah, it's creator, destroyer, yin yang is what it is. And so similar to, it belongs to us and now it belongs to the audience. Early is creator, end is destroyer. So in the early days, it's yes and, it's yes and.

1:51:26Michael, tell me about this. How did that feel? what, what, you know, why did the belt break? You know. Weight. Holiday weight. Yes. There's a mix along the way, constantly creating, constantly destroying, you know, and, and in the destruction is, there has to be a ton of love, a ton of love in the destruction. And, but yeah, I mean, I'm sure there were plenty of times where I was like, we're gonna redo this whole thing. On our first day of shooting, I was like, we're lopping off the first 10 pages of the script. How did that feel when I did that? I had to take a nap. Yeah, very overwhelming, right?

1:52:10Yeah, I was like, oh, let me, and then now looking back on it, like that scene, we were trying to do something that didn't need to happen and that we can, and that also we can see later on. we can you know um but yeah i was like you know how are we gonna do it like that's we're gonna start with that okay you know it's traumatic the whole process is traumatic i mean you know mark and i because we failed so much and because we put movies up that didn't work you know i got trained early on it's just like by any means necessary this isn't about me this isn't, here's the thing, the whole mechanism of filmmaking, everyone wants you to say, we got it and we can move on, right?

1:52:53That's what everybody wants. That's what the producers want. That's what the assistant director who runs the set wants. They just want you to say that. And if you don't say that, everyone is in pain because as fun as making a movie is, it's probably three in the morning. People are underslept. You know, people are having a tough who have never done this before. And they're like, I thought it was gonna be two hours. What the hell is this? Yeah, well, why am I here? You're having personal conversations with extras to convince them to stay. And what Mark and I realized early on is like, you do not leave until you get it.

1:53:26And if you have to leave when you didn't get it, you're coming back. You're coming back. So there is a lot of critical - Constant pressure to compromise. Constant pressure. That's when people are always like, how do you not compromise? And I'm like, every minute. You are compromising. Every decision is a compromise. Every decision is a compromise. That is 100 % correct. And, you know, but ultimately you're just, it's all about nudges and fighting for the best you can get in that moment. You know, sometimes an actor shows up on set and they're supposed to be super peppy and hosting a party and they are grumpy as hell.

1:54:04They haven't slept. I thought you were not gonna tell the story. That's not about you. And sometimes you have to re-rig a scene to work with what somebody has to offer. And you also have to make sure that it works in the context of the story that you're telling. So it is a tireless job. It is, you know, it's a 16 hour a day job for sure. And that's if you're lucky, you know. So when you see a clip of an actor losing his shit on the set, it's like important to, you know, remember that and contextualize that. A hundred percent. Yeah, like I'm thinking of, and there's that great clip of David Lynch have you seen that where he's just, somebody's like, we gotta move on.

1:54:44Time, we gotta work. Who gives a shit about time? Who gives a shit about time? He's like, I don't care how long a scene is. It's gonna be as long as it's supposed to be. And he's like screaming. True, and I think like, you know, I don't think, you know, actors sometimes like we're using all of our emotions, you know, like, so we might not be in the best mood, you know, because we have to do this one thing, you know, that's kind of taking that mood from you. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is I love actors and whatever they need to do besides abusing other people that gets them to where they need to be, I support it and I love them and I help them along.

1:55:23I mean, 100 % when I hear an actor losing their mind on set, I've experienced it myself as an actor where your body, if you get yourself in a position where somebody's trying to kill you on set, which happens all the time, your body doesn't know the difference. your body feels like it's somebody's trying to kill you and just because somebody said cut and you have two minutes to walk over to craft services and get yourself a bagel doesn't mean that you've shed the feeling that somebody's trying to kill you right over there and they're right over there you know that's um it's real it's very very real and in general i mean i feel like part of what this movie is about and part of what making art is about and part of what you're trying to create in the world is like understanding and compassion for whoever is going through whatever they're going through because everybody's out here doing their best you know and in particular with filmmaking it's unbelievably challenging it's unbelievably shocking that anything gets made at all it's shocking when something's good yeah when people come onto a set michael's family when they came on the set they were like i can't believe you guys are out here doing this all the Y 'all been out here for three weeks in the middle of the night, like trouncing around Baltimore at four in the morning.

1:56:42Like, how are you standing? And we're like, cause we're idiots and we love what we're doing. But it is astounding how hard it is. I think his call time was like 1130 at night. He was like, you need me there that late? Like, what are you gonna be doing in Baltimore City that late at night? And I was like, we're shooting a movie, dad. And then he comes and he did a great job, you know? Yeah. And yeah, I mean, literally every single one my family members are like in this movie. So funny. There's a difference between improv, yes and, yes anding people and like, you know, pathos and dramatic acting.

1:57:18Like, did you study that also? Like this, I mean, you've done a bunch of TV and stuff like that, but this is like. This is the first time I've done something that was like full on like. Like getting to do so many different things. Like I love doing comedy. It's so much fun. But like, you know, my favorite actor is like Philip Zimmer Hoffman. And he could be a killer in Along Came Polly and make you laugh so hard throughout it and be one of the best actors of all time. Like, and so getting an opportunity to like have scenes in this movie that are, you know, emotional and dramatic. Like that's what I love doing.

1:57:59Like I, you know, I went to University of Maryland and studied theater there, which is me and Larry David came out of there. That's pretty good though. Yeah, yeah. And Kermit the Frog, Jim Henson. All right. But yeah, like I think and also like with sobriety, like that shifted a little bit where like, oh, I don't always have to be the funniest guy in the room. I can just be like my I can show up and be the best listener and being like you know the best actor I can be and serve the scene you know same way I didn't know whether he could be dramatic or not yeah I mean you had to be wondering I had a total leap of faith it was a total leap of faith um I just got to know Michael and I was like he has it I mean you know we'd get together and tell stories and cry and he was emotionally available.

1:58:50And yeah, your sobriety was a huge part of it. We never would have made this movie if you weren't sober. It would have been a different story, but also like I wouldn't have hired an unknown, unsober person to, you know, who was having trouble to put at the front of my movie. But similarly with Liz Larson, our lead actress, you know, that was on Blind Faith. You know, I met with her, hadn't worked with her. I'd never seen her in anything before. She's a musical theater person. She was starring in Transparent, the musical, and she was stunning and outrageous. And I was like, I don't know. I've never seen you before.

1:59:25I'm going to work with you. And she was like, ah, that sounds funny. And then I called her and we met and she told me her story, which is a big part of the film. And I called Michael after I said, she's it. We're doing it. And we didn't do any chemistry read or anything. I just like, you know, you're just taking the temperature of how people are and what they are like. And I mean, it's probably, you have probably have a similar feeling when someone's coming on your podcast, you know when it's going to be wonderful. And I had that feeling about both of them. Yeah. And getting to work with Liz is like, it made dramatic acting so, like dramatic acting, but like that easy.

2:00:06because like you just connect with her and it's like, you're kind of, you're just lost in the moment. Like you're just there and same with Olivia, like, you know, truly like we got so lucky with - Olivia plays your fiance. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Lucardi. Yeah, and then my - There's some good moments with her. Like it's pretty funny when she unleashes on you. Oh my God. She's a killer, man. She goes full in. And then my actual fiance is my love interest daughter. Oh, wow. Yeah, so. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, and that was like, that was such a fun scene doing that with Brian Mendez and MCAT and Jess and my niece, Zoe.

2:00:47So Zoe's the little girl in it. And like, if we don't have everybody being solid actors in that, like, you know. Yeah, for the whole part. It would have been a disaster. And that scene's one of my favorites, like, you know, and it's all because of, I mean, Brian got hired the day before he came down and he just did such an amazing job. Like he's Conway, you know, and we keep that wide shot in with the camo pants because like that's Baltimore. Baltimore camo. Is a man wearing camo pants and a camo shirt in Ravens camo colors. I mean, that's an all time costume that guy's got on. Jay, I mean, you've had your own journey with acting.

2:01:26I mean, for many years, you were the guy behind the camera. Yeah. And then I would, you know, see you here and there. I mean, I watched Transparent, some of it, but I didn't watch like all of it. But where, and I told you as much, like you really leapt off the screen in industry. Like that character was unreal, dude. Thank you. I mean, I've seen a lot of, you know, hedge fund types or whatever in television shows. And I love that show, Industry, but you did something like all your own with that character that made it pretty unique and indelible. Thank you. Yeah, that, yeah, I started acting when I was 40 years old.

2:02:02it happened because my friends who were directors if someone dropped out they would often hire me they were like look we need a guy to come you know Jay's comfortable on set set as I was saying is a traumatic place to be very few people who can really be fully comfortable on set and I'm not totally comfortable but I've just been on so many that you know you can really just relax into it and you know I would come and do a day player role and I wouldn't try to upsell my role you know, a lot of day players will come on and be like, what if I said this monologue in addition to saying, what would you like to eat, sir?

2:02:37You know, they're definitely going to bring me back. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're bringing me back. Um, so I just started on accident and, and eventually it just leveled up and leveled up. And, um, yeah, during COVID I got to go to Wales and shoot industry, which is, you know, this BBC HBO show. And I, um, they offered me the role and I, it was very unusual role for me to play like a killer, um, you know, hedge fund guy. Um, but I, speaking of transparent, um, transparent was Amazon's first show. And, um, we, you know, we thought we were making a web show on the place where you buy your toilet paper at the time.

2:03:18And six months later, I was at the Golden Globes sitting next to Jeff Bezos, who ran Amazon, who runs Amazon and I got to know him and, um, uh, I sort of modeled the character on, on him a little bit. Um, and it was interesting cause I was able to bring a lot to it for, you know, these Brits, you know, they, uh, people who come with a lot of money, you know, don't have to be nice in England as much as in the United States because, you know, money is real old in England. And, you know, but yeah, I was able to sort of bring this sort of scrappy killer vibe to that character. And it was kind of a big break in my career.

2:04:00It definitely like showed people, because, you know, prior to that, I was, people were casting me for me. I was, yeah, you could be in some version of a movie that you would make and it's very familiar, but the industry role was like an extreme departure from that. Yeah, I had to, I mean, it was the toughest role I'd ever taken. I mean, that language, it's almost like learning another language when you're speaking hedge fund talk, because the creators had come from that world. It was very inside baseball. And so you had to know the dialogue so well that you could actually sort of like intimate the emotional value of what was happening because, you know, it's, it's even as a viewer, it's hard to keep track of exactly what's happening.

2:04:38Like it's only because the actors on that show are so good that you can understand it. So that was a pretty wild show and definitely broke my career open as an actor. What did you learn from hanging out with Jeff Bezos? Like, what can you share about? Just a down to earth guy. You know, what that hang was like. That hang was like, it was an odd experience because everybody, so early days of Transparent, you know, you're talking about 12 people at a table at the Golden Globes, at the Emmys, at the Peabody's, none of whom had ever been there before. So we're all just showing up, including Jeff Bezos, you know, showing up, trying to figure out what this is and what this means.

2:05:28You know, I do, I mean, very friendly guy, very excited about what we were doing. You know, I mean, it was a huge windfall for them to have like their first show do incredibly well. The main thing that I remember is he would show up and disappear through odd doors and we were told that there were helicopters involved. So even at these events, like, you know, Brad pits at the Golden Globes, guys, and Bezos is going in and out. He has the special treatment. I mean, you're a nation at that point. Yes, there's a lot of bodyguards. There's a lot of security. There's, I mean, it is, the operation is, the only thing that I can liken it to is, one of my good friends is grandson of Jimmy Carter.

2:06:27And when he got married, Jimmy Carter came to the wedding. And like the wedding was a little bit about my friend John's wedding and mostly about how to get Jimmy Carter in and out of a wedding. And, you know, it's a really wild operation to see. The Golden Globes is a wild operation, you know, and obviously like a target, you know, they're checking under cars with mirrors and wands that can detect things. So just that operation is huge. And then getting Jeff Bezos into it is totally insane. And then he's just sitting, you know, eating cold food like we are and snacking and just like wondering what's next.

2:07:13So it was a totally surreal. And then his ear pierces like your submarine's ready. Yeah, it just disappears through the floor. Yeah, yeah. But no invite to the wedding. No, no, no, no invite to the wedding. Michael, did you get invited? I didn't go. I think I was on the tier two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah, which was, I believe apps, serving apps. Yeah, exactly. Sure. If Carrot Top couldn't go, I'd be there. Okay, sounds good. We were talking a little bit ago about creativity, getting sober and realizing

2:07:51that not only can you still tap into your creativity, it becomes this like, you know, kind of rebirth of it. But how do each of you think about creativity now? Like when you sit down to write, like you're collaborating on this script, but, you know, writing is still a solitary act and you kind of have to inhabit a certain state. Are you, you know, a Steven Pressfield, court the muse, get your ass in the chair kind of person? Is it a situation where you're dancing around and acting it out? Like, how does it work for you? I think Steven Pressfield's book is actually the one book on screenwriting that's actually of value and of uncreated creativity.

2:08:33It is just, you know, about presence. It's interesting because when you were talking about what it meant to be sober and, you know, just becoming present and relying on people, other people for your sobriety. that is kind of how I think about creativity now is like you know I mean it might sound woo woo but it is really about just trying to be a clear channel for what does God want of me or the God or whatever your higher power is but like you know being of service in terms of like you know what does the world need now? What am I excited about? You know, what is coming through me? Who else can I serve?

2:09:16You know, who can be my co-conspirator? Who's a person I want to spend years with making a movie? Who do I want to hang out with? Who do I love? Who's going to love me when times get hard. It's weirdly, I think like, it's like kind of creating the thing that we're all missing now, which is the village, which we have moved away from and we all live in our pods with our computers and if we're lucky, our spouse and our kids, you know, but like, and so I think it is, it's all that feeling of like, you know, trying to create something that matters and that can be given to other people. and the older I get, the more that I'm just trying to purify that channel and make it as clean as possible because it's just not about me.

2:10:08And the more that it's about me, the muddier and grosser it feels. Of course, there are things inside of me like I needed this movie. I needed this movie as much as Michael needed this movie. I was fallow as an artist. I was scared to direct a movie without my brother. I was terrified that I was gonna make a movie and it was gonna suck. And I was gonna be like, oh, he was the special sauce. I didn't wanna be, I didn't wanna be. So that's the dark secret, like the insecurity. Like, oh, you know, they'll finally see that it was just all Mark. It was all Mark. And Mark is like, I'm, you know, like Mark said, I'm the guy who'll do the$150 movie and I'm more inward and Mark's very outward in the world.

2:10:55much more visible and present. And he's a producer by nature. And, you know, he really likes, he, like he wants to go to South by Southwest and give a talk about all the stuff we talk about. I'm just like, I'm just having enough trouble, you know, pushing this movie through the eye of a needle, you know, so we've always been that way, you know, where I'm more inward and he's more outward. And that's been an interesting part of us doing things separately is us having to become whole people again, because you sort of compartmentalize and you, you know, he got really good at being outward and I got really good at being inward.

2:11:34So there's been a lot of ink spilled around this, you know, this relationship evolving. Yeah. Yes. Is there anything you want to say about that? Yeah, I mean, you know, I would say that like Mark and I started as two immigrant kids to Hollywood, you know, who were like linked arm in arm like we talked about and felt like we needed to do everything in lockstep in order to make a splash enough to where we wouldn't have to like go back to Louisiana, go back to New Orleans, which is the story as we know of Hollywood is like people move and then they move back. They get sent home, you know, and, you know, as we progressed, you know, I think our first big hiccup is Mark became a famous actor.

2:12:24And all I wanted to do was to be, you know, the Coen Brothers 2.0 with him. And that process was, you know, it was very difficult because, you know, to get a movie made, you have to obey that movie. That movie is so much bigger than you, you know, and Mark was very unavailable for a long time. And it took me a long time to figure out how to navigate that. I created a TV show called Togetherness and, you know, he was able to star in it and we were able to work on that together. And over time, it took us a long time to realize that at my heart of hearts, I just wanted to be a filmmaker, a writer, director, and Mark didn't really want that.

2:13:06You know, he wanted to be an actor and a producer. sir. Um, but you know, um, we're two guys who felt lucky to be here. We didn't want to rock the boat. Um, you know, uh, it, it was a long, it was like a very loving conscious uncoupling, but it took a really long time. It was like a tough, tough process. You know, um, I felt like he was leaving me early on and he felt like I was leaving him later on. And it was kind of like, you know, getting like a super friendly divorce where we were trying to take care of each other as much as possible. And we're finally at a place now where we run this company together and we still support other people and we support each other in the ways that we can.

2:13:56But it was a long time coming and, you know, it was tough on me. I mean, it definitely the reason why I didn't make a movie for 14 years. And, you know, um, it took me, it, that was what was, you know, super scary about, you know, making a new movie and, and, you know, um, but, you know, I, I just tried to keep it small and trust my heart. And luckily this thing came out to be a dream come true. So it's so much more than just, this is my first time directing. Oh, it's so much more. It's all my worst fears. Because if you could just, you know, get some momentum with this, then it alleviates whatever weird tension and energy, you know, it will improve your relationship with your brother.

2:14:43Absolutely. Because if you're both fully expressed in doing what you're doing, then you can come together. Then we can come together and actually be brothers and make art when it makes sense for us to make art together. But no, it was absolutely terrifying. And, you know, just, yeah. I mean, I, you know, the fear is like, yeah, I'm, Mark is the special sauce. I can't make anything without him. He doesn't want to make movies with me. So I don't make movies anymore. That's honestly was in the back of my head the whole time, you know? Well, this was the growth and evolution that you needed. Like you needed, you needed to do this as an artist for yourself.

2:15:23I did. I deeply, deeply needed it. And I think similar to how you guys have talked about with AA, like, you know, I had probably seven scripts. They were all more expensive. I had made a movie in 14 years. So people in Hollywood are like, yeah, you're not a filmmaker anymore. You got to make a movie recently to show them that you're a filmmaker and you're still good. Those movies were more expensive. There were a lot more personal stories about me, which I can tell those stories now. But like I tried to move a lot of those stories forward and it was a really tough time with the pandemic and with the strikes and, you know, the timing just didn't work and I just kept retreating, kept retreating, kept retreating.

2:16:05And it felt like, it felt negative at first. And then I realized I was coming back to my roots and how I sort of invented this way of making films, which is like using real people and telling their stories and honoring them and doing it handmade in a small city somewhere or medium-sized city somewhere. And - Where no one will bother us. Where no one will bother us, exactly. And, but it was ultimately, I think, just serving Michael and his story and knowing that it wasn't about me and that I could really focus on him, that to me was my personal linchpin because I don't have that thing in me that's just like, oh, my story needs to get out there.

2:16:46This needs to be told. I'd much rather serve somebody else. And once we got into that pipeline, I was like, it just flowed like that. One of the reasons why I think it's being really well-received, and we should say like, we're recording this before it's out in the world. We're talking about film festival audiences. So it's like, these people wanna like the movie, but all the reviews are like incredibly good right now. I think it speaks to this yearning that we have for something that feels real and authentic. And the movies are just, they're so big now, they're so special effected out and the stories are so unrelatable.

2:17:33Everything is supersized so much that - And every character is perfect. We haven't been served, like we haven't been nourished with just like the human story that we can relate to that reminds us that we're human when we see people that look real and feel real because they are real people. And they're just having a human problem that they're trying to figure out. And there was so much value in like casting Michael and he's the guy. This essentially happened in spirit and a lot of these events are true. That was a huge value to me because I was after exactly that. It's like feeling something that is undeniably real and has value.

2:18:17And I think there are some good superhero movies out there, but I said this once at a SAG Screen Actors Guild event, and I thought it was going to be a lot more controversial than it was, but I don't think people's thinking was, I'm not trying to say I was so advanced, but I just think people were not quite thinking this way, but I think the younger generation is thinking this way. And my idea around it is that our cultural mythology is broken. People talk about this across various medium, but I think it's actually most visible in filmmaking because ultimately our cultural mythology in America right now is represented in a superhero movie.

2:19:02And that myth is there's bad people and there's good people. We're the good people and the bad people are very, very scary. But what we need to do is lift weights and buy more guns and kill all those bad people. And when we do that, everything will be good. And nothing could be more broken. Nothing could be more true in terms of our foreign policy. Nothing could be, you know, more dangerous for this world and where we're going. And, you know, I think, you know, you know, I'm not trying to save the world with these tiny little movies, but, you know, Joseph Campbell said stories are equipment for living.

2:19:41And it took me a long, long time to understand what that really meant. You said it earlier. It's like, you know, a story is a way to change people's minds and change people's culture. I saw it with Transparent. You know, people had no tolerance for trans people and suddenly people were watching this show and there was a trans person in their living room and they were laughing and enjoying them and watching them operate in the world. And so, you know, to be able to contribute to our cultural mythology and to tell stories about people who are trying to recover and, you know, two steps forward, one step backwards and making us laugh and falling in love and getting their hearts broken.

2:20:22And, you know, and frankly, like using Michael's journey and the courage that he displayed to recover and to stay sober, that is additive to our culture. And it's additive to your Saturday night when you're like, boy, that was a tough week. Because I think the superhero movies feel really good in the moment. And then you go home and they just feel so far away. They're not really like nourishing the soul in a way that stories can. I think you're not leaving talking about it. You're just like, oh yeah, that was good. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And I think the best thing about our movie is that like, there's conversation after, you know, like when we did test screenings, like, you know, like Jay would ask a question and the audience was like split.

2:21:11And he's like, we have a movie now because now that audience can go and talk about, well, I saw it as this. Did you see it as that? You know? and I don't know I just personally like I like seeing movies that have flawed characters that are trying to kind of do their best in their everyday life but still mess up you know like my guy is by no means but no one's perfect and that's the whole thing that I think we need to because I think so much of the superhero movies these people are perfect you know or you know Or they have flaws in very like simple ways that just, it just feels like a token flaw.

2:21:53I mean, I think it's very astute. This actually came up on the podcast I was doing yesterday with this like Jungian psychotherapist and he was talking about how modern culture has been drained of a shared mythology and we've outsourced it to basically the superhero movies that we see. And these are the stories that create our kind of sense of meaning in the world, which is really fascinating, but obviously makes sense when we become more secular and we don't have the kind of community gathering spots and the spiritual institutions and churches and things like that. Like what are we gathering around?

2:22:31Well, we're gathering around the cinema and these ideas that we're all kind of collectively absorbing simultaneously. but for the filmmaker who does wanna speak to the human condition, given the business model of Hollywood right now, they have to do it within the context of a superhero story. And there are good versions of that and not so good ones. So, you know, when I think about that, I think about like what Tony Gilroy is doing with Andor, which I think is just some of the most exceptional storytelling. Michael Clayton is like one of the best movies ever. It's my favorite movie. Same, it's my favorite movie.

2:23:08I literally watch it every three months. It's brilliant. It's like reading the Bible. I mean, that guy. I actually saw a clip of Clooney the other day. He was talking about that last scene where he's driving in the car and they're like, it's some of your best acting ever. Like, how are you doing this? Oh, I saw that clip. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, well, to be honest with you, we didn't know what we were doing. This was like the last shot. And Tony was just like, yeah, just go in the car and just ask to go somewhere. And everybody on the street in New York is yelling, Clooney, Clooney, George.

2:23:38While that sacred moment was happening. He's just trying not to laugh the whole time. But it's just incredible for people who haven't seen it. It's this like very long shot. He's in the back of the cab and it's just driving. This is the end of the movie, which is like the quintessential, like this is how movies in the seventies ended. It's like, it's definitely a, you know, like a shout out to that. It's very effective, but then you hear like, oh, this is, well now, like when you make a movie, what you were saying, like, I'm on a street in Baltimore, it's like 2 AM. And they, you know, there's, there's a drug deal going on around the corner and the cops are about to come and all that kind of stuff.

2:24:10Yeah. The reality of that.

2:24:15But Kathleen Kennedy should put Tony Gilroy in charge of anything having to do with Star Wars. Yeah, 100%. For, you know, for, you know. Years and years to come. As long as he'll, he's willing to do it and he should make every decision regarding that. I agree, yeah. Let's end this with a little insider or inspiration for the aspiring artists. I think there's one thing that both of you guys share, which is that both of you are people who pretty early in life had a good sense of what you wanted to do. And I think that's unusual, like that's rare, not everybody feels that way, but I think everybody has some kind of creative inspiration.

2:24:54They wanna give voice to some idea that they have and in any number of ways and society doesn't do a very good job of encouraging that. So, you know, how would you, how would you give words to that person who's... I mean, it sounds cliche, but like, don't give up, you know, like I had similar to you, like so many jobs that like, like didn't go my way, you know, over and over and over again, testing for shows, doing stuff. And I'm like, like, why am I still doing that? Like, you know, that thought of like, is it time to go back to Baltimore? Is it time to call it, you know? And it just takes one person in the field of Hollywood to be yes.

2:25:39And then I think Jay even said it to me once, like Hollywood loves being the second yes, you know? And, you know, like just do, do whatever you like fail, fail over and over and over again, get back up, fail, fail some more, but just like know that like no matter what, like if this is what you really wanna do for your life, anything in the creative field, just do it and not worry about what other people are telling you to do or not do, you know? And I would be remiss if I didn't, since we mentioned Zach earlier, you know, my siblings and my cousin started a foundation in his name, ZTP Foundation that helps out people in Zach's age range in Maryland to basically like sponsor them to go to rehab.

2:26:36And so, yeah. And I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that before because, you know, like, especially with sobriety too, like, you know, the term keep coming back, but also like, just stay. Because like - Don't leave before the miracle. Yeah, yeah, don't leave before the miracle because right now I am living like the most miraculous life and it's 100 % due to my sobriety. And I'm so grateful like every day, you know, that like, that this little tiny movie about my life based on my life and made in my hometown with family and friends and with somebody that took a chance on me, it can happen.

2:27:25you know it really can and it's and i'm living proof and um i just am so happy i absolutely love my life today and i was this close to missing it all well i can't top that that's pretty good that's a good one that's a pretty good one you i mean you can definitely top it you're like oh yeah um i mean i guess the extra piece of advice that would give for up and coming filmmakers and artists. Everyone is a little bit of a riff on the perfect day, which I know you're a huge fan of. Um, and it's, um, you know, it's, I call it making good days. Um, and I feel like my job is just to make the best day I can make on any given day.

2:28:15And I, I do a lot of thinking about what's going to happen tomorrow, the night before, Or if something doesn't feel right or if I feel too overloaded, I'll try and slide something to later in the week. And it's specifically with art making, it really comes down to, are you going to be making art tomorrow? Are you going to do it? Because like I said, a lot of people like to talk about making art and they don't make art. It's also way easier to talk about making art. Making art involves, you know, fail repeat, fail repeat. So the other thing that's really tricky, and there's no judgment on this, but a lot of people want to have made art.

2:28:58They want to be at the Oscars. They want to be at the Golden Globes, whatever it may be. And I'll just put it out here this way, is the real artists, most of them don't want to be at those events. They would rather be at home continuing to make their art. So in terms of merging those things, in terms of making a really good day and making your art, even at this point in my life, I find it hard to carve out two or three hours to make art on a Tuesday. I have to really be concerted about it because, you know, people are banging on your door to do everything in this world, to pay bills, to, you know, to move your damn car, to whatever it is that's going on.

2:29:41People are always banging on your door to do stuff and it's never to make an original, you know, earth shaking, earth shattering piece of art. You know, no one is doing that. That is up to you to do it. There's too many emails from your kid's school that you have to read. How do people do it? I don't know. That could be a full-time job. Full-time job is answering your kid's school's emails and attending their events and doing fundraising for your kid's school. but you're happy you had them and you love them. Absolutely, 100%. As one of my friends said, having children is 51 % worth it. But yeah, I really do believe that, and really be honest with yourself.

2:30:24It's like, how much art do you wanna make in a day? And really tuning in, because the more that I go, it really is, it's less about making art and more just about me being true to myself and just witnessing how much art is going to come out of that. Because I'm not really interested anymore in forcing art because that creates collapse. You know, like overworking creates collapse. You know, and of course we have to feed our families and we have to do all the things that we need to do. But I mean, to me, ultimately it comes down to tuning into who you are and listening. and that's what's gonna tell you what you uniquely have to offer the world because like you said, we all have our heroes and we wanna be like them, but sometimes we're not like them ultimately or what we uniquely have to offer is not what they have to offer.

2:31:19Tuning into that thing is not what's taught in film school. It's not taught in our culture. That's why your podcast is so incredible is it helps me tune in to what I'm doing and why I'm here and what gives me life. So I think that's the best piece of advice I can give to any artist. It's pretty good advice, don't you think? Yeah, I mean, he's the killer. He knows what he's doing. It's about integrity with self, like integrating who you are. Like your art is an expression of your authentic voice. You're not out there to like get invited to a party or be validated for it. Like the reward is the work, which is a reflection of the inner self.

2:32:10And I've been to those parties where like, I wasn't, you know, sober and we would be writing the biggest screenplay ever, you know, midway through the night, you know, doing all this, like all that stuff. We never talked about that screenplay again, you know, It's like doing the work and actually. Yeah, because the people who are actually doing the thing are not at the parties because they're doing the thing. And they're probably invited and they choose not to go because like they're more compelled by, you know, the pull, the yearn to like express themselves and you know, time's precious. And if you're doing that at a high level, there are people pulling on you all the time and tempting you with, you know, all kinds of delicious offers to go here, do this or that.

2:32:54But yeah, yeah. Speaking of which, like the movie's not out yet, but is your phone ringing? Are you getting, is this like, is there like, you know, a little bit of like activity going on? There's a little. In a way there wasn't before. There's a little bit of stuff happening, but not, you know, nothing crazy yet. The movie hasn't come out yet, but I'm sure. I just want, I want it to come out. I want it to be super successful. And all I want for you is to like go back to Baltimore and just walk down the street and have, And you can be like Clooney in the back of the cab. But like the straps like hometown hero.

2:33:30Yeah, you know? Yeah. That would be - We are having a huge premiere in Baltimore. Oh, you are? Oh, cool. At the classic theater there. Yes, the Senator Theater on September 10th, I believe. And yeah, it's - Are you doing anything here in LA? Yeah, we're gonna have a few events here. We're gonna show some, show it videos. We'll, yeah. Oh yeah, you were in. I'd love you to be there. anything out of there. Yeah, of course. If you want to see it again, yeah, that'd be amazing. Yeah, we're gonna have a few events here. We're gonna have premieres in New York. We're gonna, Michael and I are gonna do an old school road show where we go to like 10 or 12 cities.

2:34:04We're gonna do press. We're gonna introduce movies. We're gonna really personalize the experience. That's like a Kevin Smith vibe. It is. Yeah, we're gonna go like, Boston, Chicago, Austin, Houston, Baltimore. Nashville, Seattle. Nashville, Seattle. Yeah. And New York. And they're gonna fly us around and we're gonna like go and be there in person. And, you know, Michael's gonna cry on stage after and say he's glad to be alive. Yeah, I'm super vulnerable. And we gotta thank IFC for all of that. Yeah, IFC and Saipan Films. Yeah, Saipan Films have been, Josh has been incredible. Well, you guys did an amazing job.

2:34:36It's a really beautiful movie. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for supporting us. Thank you so much for sharing people to see it. Yeah, thanks for spending a couple hours with me, man. This was great. This is awesome. This has been my favorite show. What are you talking about, man? I want to just host a, like a movies podcast, you know, like. You could do that, Rich. You could do that. We'll see. I think so. Appreciate you guys. Thank you, Rich. Yeah. Thanks so much for doing this. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

2:35:05That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com. where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful.

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2:36:24And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:36:47Thank you.