Judd Apatow On Comedy, Creativity, And Embracing Your Inner Weirdo

25:56And yet you're touching on something that, you know, we can all connect with. It's funny you say that, because when we did this TV show, Love, on Netflix with Paul Rust and Gillian Jacobs, the whole idea was to show every single step in a relationship. So if they bumped into each other and then didn't talk for a few weeks, let's show the few weeks. Let's show the pauses in between. If they break up, let's show what they do when they're broken up and who else they go out with. And then later they come together. I mean, that's always something that I'm interested in. At some point, someone said, you know, these are movies where you take the supporting actors or actresses and make them the leads.

26:38These are the characters. It's like if there was a movie about Bruno Kirby and Carrie Fisher from When Harry Met Sally, you would love that movie. Right. Like, I want to go home with them for a little while. Right. The side story over there. Yes. Like, that's the more interesting thing. Is that a conscious thing when you're reviewing material and trying to figure out what you want to be involved in, like the process of deciding where you're going to invest your time and your energy for the next, you know, however many years it takes to get something onto a screen? I think I just relate to those people.

27:07And so I'm always in that space because I don't relate to the super handsome hero. I like that kind of movie, but I relate to the goofy person next to them who's too tired to keep up as they're going up the mountain. I'm a John Candy guy. And I always feel a little bit insecure in spaces. And so most of the comedy comes from whatever. My anxieties, things I'm trying to get over, things I'm trying to learn about or deal with. And so it inherently isn't heroic. It's just, how do you survive high school? How do you survive having a baby? How do you make your marriage work? The simple things, to me, have so much drama in them because that is the most rewarding stuff, but also the most challenging stuff.

27:57And the weirdo, making heroes out of the weirdos or the people that are in between, like in the cracks. Yeah, I mean, I remember we were promoting Knocked Up and Seth was always really funny about the fact that the poster was just his face. and it said, what would you do if this guy got you pregnant? And Seth said, so that's enough to sell the movie? Just my face is enough? And he was like, it doesn't make any sense because everyone is like me. He's like, the world is like me. No one's like Brad Pitt. They're like me. I'm not the exception. And I think that's true that we all feel like that. I don't know how many people feel strong and fantastic.

28:40Yeah. They're accomplishing their goals and feel mentally strong. We all feel like a mess. So it's fun to write about people who are a mess. Yeah. That's the same thing with the show Girls. Like I was reading that, what's that HBO book? Oh. Kind of like the history. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tinderbox. And there's a whole section on there on how Girls came to be. And at one point, Lena shares her like two-page brief or whatever about the show. Yeah. And it's all about like the people that she grew up, like there's Sex and the City and there's these other shows, there's Gossip Girl, but like, what about like my friends?

29:15And what happens when you graduate college and you go to New York City and you're trying to figure things out? Like, I've never seen that on television. Those are the people that I relate to, my generation, et cetera, that are kind of have been overlooked in the media landscape. And, you know, I'm sure a big reason why that show is so special is because it was telling those stories that had yet been told. Yeah, I mean, she always thought it was funny to have people who feel like they're owed the world. So they get out of college and they think, here it comes, life is about to be handed to me on a silver platter, and then nothing goes right.

29:48And they're not as smart as they thought they were. The jobs don't come as easily. And that's what she found hilarious about that premise and all the weird relationships and friendships that you have at that time in your life. Yeah. In terms of, you mentioned, and like you like to write to whatever you're going through or kind of staring in the mirror, looking at your neuroses or whatever kind of issue you're trying to work your way through. I know that like self-help books and all that kind of stuff has been kind of a touchstone in terms of how you think about this stuff and try to develop characters out of what you're reading.

30:27Like, how has that played into your work? Like, what are the, I mean, I texted Pete Holmes earlier and I was like, I'm going to talk to Judd, He's like, he loves Eckhart Tolle. He's a deeply spiritual dude, you know? That's so funny. I think, you know, my history with self-help is funny. I remember my dad, when he was a younger man, married to my mom, at some point read the Wayne Dyer book, Your Erogenous Zones. And then very quickly after that, my parents got divorced. did you have like, were there like Erica Jong books laying around your house? Remember, I'm okay, you're okay? Yeah, the early era of that.

31:14I think that was really the only book that was in the house, but it had an effect on my dad. I think him and my mom went to the therapy, and on the first day, he said to me, the therapist went too hard at your mom, and so she won't go back. And so that was the first time I heard about self-help. But when I was a kid, I was home a lot. My friends all played sports, and I didn't. And I would go home every day and watch Donahue. I would watch Phil Donahue every day. And all these self-help people would be on or just shows about people's problems in the pre-Oprah era. Right. And Stanley Segal was another guy who had a show like that that was edgier.

31:56And so it was always interesting to me. But then I met Gary Shandling, and he introduced me to Buddhism, and he gave me this book, A Feather on a Fan, and another one called Turning Your Problems into Happiness. And that was the first time I paid any attention to it as a young person because my parents didn't really teach me anything about any of it. And it wasn't really in the culture. So I probably should have gone to a therapist as a teenager, but no one did. Nobody was doing that. And if you were to go, it was pathologized. There was something tremendously broken about you. It's funny looking back because I graduated high school in 85.

32:37Me too. Back then, I mean, I really don't remember one person who went to a therapist. There was nobody out of the closet. You know, our school couldn't have been less diverse on Long Island. And there was just so much we didn't know anything about. Right. Right. It's like when David Sedaris writes about the fact that he went to a speech therapist where he just realized that everyone there was gay. Right. That's what it was like back then. Like people weren't tuned into who you were. No. And how to help you with your problems. And it was a big deal when Kramer versus Kramer came out or Terms of Endearment.

33:17Like, oh, my God, these are movies that are dealing with, you know, challenging emotions. Sure. It's sort of like it was like a watershed. you're like we don't talk about that stuff I just watched Kramer vs. Kramer again I can't say it fully holds up it's really rough on Meryl Streep I mean you watch it through the lens of today and it's like the great ending the triumphant ending the kid leaves his mom to stay with his dad and she gives up her child yeah that would not get greenlit today I don't think But that's what you did, right? Well, you stayed with your dad. I was with my dad. When your parents split up, right?

33:58My mom moved out, and I just wanted to stay in the same town. I didn't want to leave. And I just thought, I don't care what you do. I'm staying in this house. Like, my friends are here. You're not going to separate me from my space. Right, so it wasn't a choice of parents as much as location. Yes. Yeah. And that consistency, just the consistency of my friends. And it was, you know, middle of junior high school. And it was a funny time because everyone's parents got divorced at some point during our childhood. Literally no, there were no kids whose parents can get divorced. And in our neighborhood, it was pretty upper middle class, middle class in most of the town.

34:42And then you would, your parents would get divorced and then you would move into an apartment complex. Right. Down the street. Literally like a mile away. You'd see like, oh, look, they moved into Hinnridge. That's where we moved. And that's how you knew that people's parents got divorced. Yeah, it was an interesting time because it was sort of the first era where there was acceptance around divorce. But all those people got married too young in an era in which you're just expected to get married as soon as you graduate college or, you know, your high school sweetheart or whatever. I was looking at a picture of my parents' wedding this week, and it was a party, and I literally thought it was my mom's sweet 16.

35:26Right. They're so young. They're so young. And they're like, no, this is their engagement party. They met in summer camp. But, yes, it was just a different time, and no one knew how to talk about anything. My dad, when my parents split up, I was living with him. It was just me and him for a while. And I saw a book. It was called Growing Up Divorced. And I picked it up and looked at it. And it was kind of helpful. It was like explaining what the parents were going through. And I never talked to my dad about it. I just thought it was like some book that he had to deal with me. Oh, he sort of placed it there quietly for you to discover.

36:08He placed it there. But I said to my dad recently when I realized that he placed it there, because I said to him once, you never talked to me about how it was going, my feelings. You never explained anything to me. And I think he thought, the good thing that I'm doing is I'm not going to war with your mom. She's mad at me, but I'm not going to say anything bad about her. But we didn't really talk emotionally because I don't think people really knew how back then. And so he left out this book. And so recently I said to him, but you never asked me if I read the book. So just because like I moved it, maybe I would have read one page.

36:46Like, don't you think you should have followed up? Well, I mean, there's a lot of threads he could have pulled. You know what I mean? Like I'm sure in his mind, he's like, look what I did. You know, like that's, you know. The book's in his room. He's fine now. I don't have to ask him if he's depressed. Oh, that's amazing. But to me, that's hilarious. Like, that's comedy. Like, I think it's so funny. And I've tried to figure out how to tell that in stand-up. I've never really worked it out. But that is what I find funny about life. Like, you're a kid. Your parents are getting divorced. They're at war.

37:22Your dad doesn't know how to communicate with you. He leaves a book out at a coffee table and then never, ever asked you till you're, like, 50 years old if you picked it up. What did he say when you finally raised it with him? He's like, I figured you read it. And I'm like, but you don't know. He's like, yeah, but I saw that you took it.

37:45Meanwhile, your mom, I read that, so she worked in this comedy club, but you didn't find out until later that she actually took that job out of, you know, this understanding that she had about what you were interested in. Well, I assume that. It's nothing that she ever said or I ever. ass about. But I'm sure it's the case because my mom was so mad when her and my dad split up. She really enjoyed her middle-class life and playing tennis and taking care of the kids. And suddenly, she's in the middle of this divorce and she has to get a job. Everything about her life change. Her parents were both, after being very wealthy, were also having serious financial problems.

38:36And so she waited tables. She sold ads at a radio station. But my mom was hilarious because she really didn't want to do any of it. Like, you know, she would just say like, this is a nightmare. You know, she wasn't like, I'm really learning about hard work and connecting with new people. And that's really putting me in a new space, which I'm enjoying. It was just like, this sucks. Right, upper middle class, single mom. Yeah. And I didn't really understand it till years later, you know, close to when she died, we started talking for real about some of it about 12 years ago. And then after she died, my aunt told me that my grandfather would be on the road.

39:20He was a jazz producer and he would leave for a week or weeks at a time. And he would always come back and bring her a dress. And he did that because he felt bad about leaving. And in a way, love became presence, became materialism. And so my mom had that thing where it meant a lot to her to have a nice pair of shoes. And I never understood it my whole life. I lent her money once and she, she would get a, like a, she'd lease like a Mercedes, but then she'd have no food to eat. And I'd say, why don't, why didn't you get like a Camry? And she said, cause I'm not an animal. And it was like, that was her in a nutshell, but I didn't understand that it was really connected to love is materialism.

40:11It's a, these gifts, uh, how, uh, that's what her makeup was. And so now she's in Southampton living in a guest house of someone because she can't afford anything but a guest house. And she takes this job seating people at a comedy club because my parents owned a restaurant and the bartender left and he became an owner of comedy clubs. And then he was Tim Allen's manager and Drew Carey and he became very successful. but at that time he had just started opening up some comedy clubs and I always thought how much could they have paid her I mean what do you get paid in 1983 to seat people for a few hours it's just at night it's not even like a full-time job and and then I thought she must have done it because she knew I wanted to see that world right consciously or unconsciously it was almost the most important moment in my life that my mom took that.

41:14And so for one summer, I could go to every show all summer, go see Paul Provenza and Jay Leno and all of these people. And someone showed me, there was some pictures of the club and I literally found a picture of a show that I was at and it was Paul Provenza and he had taken a giant umbrella and he was doing an impression of E.T. in the woods, turning like an umbrella into a satellite dish. And I was like, I was in the back of the room when this photo was taken in 1983. And so I'm always very thankful to my mom and to my dad who drove me to comedy clubs at night. I mean, when I was in high school, I started doing standup and he would drive me to Chuckles and Miniole and come and pick me up in the middle of the night.

41:56So they always, as much as they weren't getting along, both of them believed I could succeed. They never had any doubt. And I think that their belief that this was worth doing made me confident enough to take big risks. That's really beautiful. You know, that's a, like, what a gesture on your mom's part. And then that belief that your parents had in you, like this kid who knew very early on what he wanted to do, what he was obsessed with. I mean, that could be a gift and a curse. That's something I'd be curious to ask you about, to have that conviction at such a young age about what you wanted to do with your life, But to have that support and not have parents trying to talk you out of it or you should be a dentist or, you know, like that's the more typical, you know.

42:42Don't do this. Especially with comedians, right? Like that's a tough road. But to have that, you know, to have that like vote of confidence in your parents. So when you reflect back on your life from where you sit right now, do you reflect back on it and think my life is a dream or I can't believe I'm here? Or do you feel some sense of like inevitability or pre-do, yeah, of course I'm here. I deserve to be here. My parents believed in me. I had the conviction to do it. I worked hard. Yes, I own this spot. Like where does the confidence and the ego like crash into the neurosis? And you know what I mean?

43:25Like, what does that like stew look like? Well, comedy was the only place that I ever felt really confident. It's the only place where I... And there was never a plan B. There was no plan B. There's never a plan B. I just thought there's some place for me in this world. Maybe I'll be a writer. Maybe I'll be a comedian. Maybe I'll act. Maybe I'll direct. I just knew there's got to be something. But back then, there were 50 comedy clubs in the country, and no one in my high school wanted to be in comedy. So I thought... And comedy was not like it is now. Not... You know, it's not, there's this industrial complex around comedy.

44:02There's no internet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no podcast. I mean, now all the comedians are playing, you know, arenas. Then it was like just Steve Martin, and there weren't that many clubs. And so it really felt like, oh, there's room for me in this world. It was accessible. Yeah, and then no one else was interested in it. You know, so I thought, I'm kind of lame in high school. but this thing that I'm interested in that no one else is interested in I know it's cool but no one here thinks it's cool even one of my friends said to me at some point in the last 10 years I finally get what you were doing back then now?

44:43now I know why you're it took that long? now I know why you were watching the Dinah Shore show every day and Merv Griffin like no one really got it but that made me feel like okay there's a place for me in this space and then I moved to LA and I met all the other people in comedy. And suddenly I had all these friends who had basically lived the same life as me in their little town. There was no subreddit though where you guys could all like chat about like your weird obsession that no one else had. No, you'd have to show up at a comedy club and do open mic nights and you'd meet all the aspiring comedians.

45:17I used to start out, you know, I started out with people like Doug Benson and Andy Kindler. And, you know, we would just go to the clubs every night. Then I met Adam Sandler and Rob Schneider and David Spade and Jim Carrey. And that was our world and our crew back then. And we all had the same dream and also the same path to do it, which is write jokes during the day, get on stage, see if they worked. Every night, maybe that set will be a little bit better. And then maybe one night, someone important will see you do it. And that was the whole path of comedy, which I love that it was that simple.

45:53Like, get funny, get noticed. And it seemed very fair. None of us really had any advantage. It was just we had to make Bud Friedman like us, so he'd put us on stage at the improv. And then if he did, maybe the tonight show would show up, or maybe they'd put us on evening of the improv. And it was really fun. It was like running a race with all your friends.

46:21it happened i mean the way it appears it looks like it all happened pretty quickly for you i mean you move out to la you go to usc for a year two years year and a half year and a half drop out move in with adam sandler do you just met him at the comedy clubs or how did that like happen I met him at the comic strip one day, and then he moved to L.A., and I met him when he first moved out to L.A., and he had just graduated NYU. And it's funny because I was at USC. My parents couldn't afford my tuition. I wasn't doing well because I got there when I was 17, and I was in over my head, and I was very immature.

47:01And creatively, I hadn't even begun to understand anything. and then I went on the dating game and I won. So they said, you have to go on this trip to Acapulco, which happened in December during like the last two weeks of finals. And I couldn't afford to go to school anymore. I was tired of begging my parents to try to figure out how to get the tuition. So I just went to Acapulco and quit college.

47:30I just was like, just bailed so hard on the whole thing. What was the impulse to go on the dating show though? you just went and stood in that line like by the studio or how does it you know like back then just something fun to do i think we were all scouted that the shows like that would want comedians young comedians and i wasn't a good comedian at that point but they just wanted people who were comfortable with themselves on those shows and but that's how i felt at the time like this is not working here at school and i can't afford it and everyone here seems way better at me than this, than I am.

48:03And so I did that and said, okay, I'm just going to focus full-time on stand-up. And then, you know, a couple of years later, I met Adam and we were doing the same thing, just trying to figure out how to be funnier. Yeah. It was an interesting time. I feel like that period was an inflection point in comedy and how the entertainment industry sort of that interfaced with comedy in a similar way to, you think of these like places and periods of time that are special like Seattle in 1992, or like what would have been like to live in downtown New York when David Byrne was, you know, like, where you know there's like a certain energy, you know, something's happening that's interesting.

48:47And did you have a sensibility like, oh, this is like, there's something cool going on that like contemporaneously with this community and kind of culture at large and that's meeting up with like my obsession that's creating a potential energy? Or were you just like, I don't care, I'm here, I love this stuff. I'm just meeting these people and trying to work it out. I think somewhere in me was the dream of, you know, having a community like Saturday Night Live always felt like a community. Like, oh, they're all friends. I mean, maybe they weren't, but in your head you'd watch the show or you'd see Monty Python or Second City TV and they had these groups.

49:25And so the idea of finding your people and working in the thing that you love was very appealing to me. I don't know if at the time we really understood how well so many people were going to do. Looking back, it seems kind of crazy. Rob Schneider lived across the street from me and Adam, and down the street was David Spade and over the hill Jim Carrey, who was ahead of us by a bunch of years. but was just coming back to stand-up after having a movie and a TV show not do well, and he was trying to figure out who he was as a creative voice. These were the people that we were around, and then one by one, people got these opportunities, and then people did really well, and it was so fun.

50:12I mean, me and Adam look back on it, and we just talk about it like it was the greatest time ever. We're very nostalgic about it. I mean, we'll talk on the phone and go, oh, remember when we went to Red Lobster that time? We were so excited we could afford Red Lobster. There's those videos of him crank calling people from that apartment. That is what our life was like. We didn't have jobs, so way too much time was spent doing goofy things like making phony phone calls because we didn't have an outlet for our creativity. And Adam had so much chi. He had so much energy to be funny. So he would be funny.

50:50with you. It'd be funny with anyone around because it was just there. Yeah. And there had to be a sense of inevitability with him though. Like everybody must have known, like there's just, there were certain people you just thought this is unlimited. What could happen here? And it hasn't happened much since then, but certainly at the time, Adam and Jim Carrey, at least in my mind and in a lot of people's minds were going to be the biggest stars in the world. For years, yeah. Even when they were bombing, even when it wasn't going well, you would just see them up there and go, there's something magical in what they're doing and their personality and their charisma.

51:30And they're also, too, the hardest working people of everyone. They did outwork everybody. I knew that about Carrie. I didn't know that about Adam Sandler, though. I mean, Adam was writing screenplays for himself immediately before he had any jobs, before he even had a decent job when he was just happy to get a commercial. He was writing a screenplay with my friend Joel Madison who lived down the street. I mean, there was a sense of I need to learn how to do this. And so a bunch of us did that. I wrote a pilot. No one really wanted me to write a pilot. We just started writing. We're like, I think we need to learn how to write.

52:07And we saw some people succeed around us like Jim Carrey with Ace Ventura. And we noticed, oh, Jim and Tom Shady, I found this script. And they rewrote it. And they created an opportunity for themselves. They didn't wait to get cast. Yeah, and you're like, I know these guys. This is doable. Yeah, you have to. It's what I preach to everyone. Like, most of the time you have to write your future. And you have to show people what you do. So when I worked with Jason Segel, and he talks about it all the time. I just, you know, this becomes like a story he tells. But it is true. I said, you know, you're a weird guy.

52:43You're funny. And you're super unique. and people aren't just going to hand you a script that captures that. You need to write it. And then he wrote Forgetting Sarah Marshall. It was the first screenplay he ever wrote. But it was so true to him and he understood himself in a way that nobody else ever could have. And so we all were trying to figure out how to do that. Right. The community piece seems to loom large for you. Like everything that you've done and your best work is all about this sort of esprit de corps and trying to kind of recapture what it was like living with Adam in that apartment, you know, like just having a lot of cool, funny people around all the time.

53:21And, you know, the sort of lore, the mythos of Saturday Night Live is that that's what that is, right? So, you know, it is, you would have fit in well with that, I think, as a writer. Oh, yeah. But short of that, like you recreating that in other ways. Yeah, I mean, Adam, you know, one day Adam just says, I'm going to Chicago to audition for Saturday Night Live. He didn't do characters. They just saw him stand up. And then afterwards, a few days later, he's like, yeah, I'm leaving. So suddenly I'm in the apartment by myself. That era is over. Yeah, that era is over. I'm in the house. Do I move out?

53:57Do I stay in this apartment? And I kept paying rent for a while. And then slowly I was like, I guess I should leave. I live alone. He's not coming back. I talked to him yesterday because he left his wallet. But on the Mark Twain Awards, I showed his driver's license because he literally left his driver's license and his fake ID that he had when he was a kid. But yesterday, I was just going through some stuff, and I found his wallet, which had a receipt from Ralph's supermarket. And I just looked at it because this is what Adam just bought, his groceries. And it was literally chocolate pudding and frosted flakes.

54:34It was the most unhealthy. You still have this? Yeah, I just, I just, because I always thought it was funny that he left his wallet. Not only did he leave his wallet. Do you have his fake ID? I have his fake ID. He never asked if it was there. He didn't just leave it. He never said, did I leave my wallet? I mean, that's how forward thinking he was. He just moved to a new city with no ID and started his new life. Never mentioned it. Never looked back at all. Oh my gosh. Left most of his clothes. but um so then i you know we would all help each other and you know try to help adam write sketches and then hope that one day we could get hired and some of us did get hired tim hurley who who wrote you know most of adam's movies uh with adam uh who is as funny as anybody ever you know he got a job there he was a lawyer and he left to write for saturday night live he was adam's roommate in college and then I had a packet and I was trying to get in.

55:33I just never got in. And then Jim, I was helping Jim write some sketches for a living color. And then I did a meeting to try to get a job there. So then I met Ben Stiller and we created the Ben Stiller show. And that's how I got in at a sketch show because I couldn't get a staff job. And then just through just this weird moment where I bumped into Ben Stiller who I didn't know, but people were interested in him doing a sketch show and we just thought of an idea for it and two weeks later we sold it people thought that we were friends forever we had met two weeks before wow and so without really any useful experience you know i was right helping ben right and that really you know sort of kicks off you and like everything that follows you know that show how many seasons did that go it didn't go very long right one or two oh only half a 13 episodes yeah you know up against 60 minutes and all the commercials that we shot, we wrote all these commercials, was Ben playing an agent and he was talking to different celebrities in the different commercials and telling them not to go on the Ben Stiller show because it's definitely going to get canceled because it's up against 60 Minutes.

56:45I mean, our ad campaign was predicting our cancellation, which followed soon after. But that's where we worked with Bob Odenkirk and Andy Dick and Janine Graffalo. And that's really where I learned And most of the first stuff that I needed to learn how to do this was from Ben, who had already done a sketch show for MTV and was brilliant and had a real vision about what he wanted comedy to look like. He wanted to do these cinematic sketches. It's interesting to see what he's doing now. I mean, you know, with severance, like, you know, in your deck for something that he, you know, he would be interested in doing, like, so cinematic, so weird, and kind of heavy on the drama.

57:30And, you know, Dan Amora, like, these serious, you know, cinematic shows that he's working on. No, he's really fulfilling all the potential that he had. Because back then, he was developing Reality Bites, and Danny DeVito was one of the producers, and he said, you're doing this sketch show, you should really go nuts with the camera and really learn how to be a director. And then Ben did. He did these sketches like this T.J. O. Poudertooth's Twilight Zone type episode that David Cross wrote, and he pushed himself. and now you know he's uh like cindy lomet or i know it's crazy i mean you could see bill hader doing that too with the stuff that he's doing with barry you know you could see that trajectory and we always say to people hey if you have your own show really push to direct it because it's not impossible to do you could really learn how to be a great director aziz anzari directed a lot of masters of none and has become an amazing director and amy schumer's done a lot of directing and is great.

58:35So I think that's what we all look for opportunities to figure out how to do that next step. I learned at the Larry Sanders show, Gary let me direct an episode. And then when we did Freaks and Geeks is when I really started doing a bunch of it. I want to talk about Gary, but, you know, and looking at your IMDb, I mean, it's, you know, it's a hundred miles long. There's so many movies. We can't talk about all your movies, but if I kind of glance at it at 10 ,000 feet. What jumps out at me is this period between around 2004 to 2015, where it's just an insane amount of output. Like just an incredible number of - It's a nervous breakdown.

59:19I mean, I don't know how many movies, like 15 movies or something, like just TV shows, movies, producer, writer, director, et cetera. And I can't help but think, despite it being like just an absolute tear, that there has to be some level of like obsessive workaholism in that. Like, what was your life like for that 10-year period where you were hitting your stride and like just the output was like beyond? You know, I'm only beginning now to have any perspective about it. I do think that when you're younger you have like a ridiculous amount of belief in yourself that is completely unwarranted. and that I think it's almost in your genetic makeup to take risks and to leap in.

1:00:13And when I look back, I think, yeah, I mean, there was a moment of feeling like we were all in a crazy groove, but also being very collaborative with each other. We were all reading each other's scripts and giving notes and going to table reads. And, you know, there really was a community there. So if there was a table read, we all would go. Right. And you would get notes from everybody. And I remember the 40-year-old virgin table read, and Adam McKay was there. And he's like, you know, when they're talking, maybe they should all be like hitting each other with fluorescent lights. I used to do that when I worked at this place.

1:00:47And you put it in. Or, you know, Gary Shanling would come to the table read and give remarkable notes, way deeper than we knew how to do. And, you know, he would tell us what the core emotional ideas were that we needed to pay attention to. And I recently found in Gary's stuff, the script for the 40-year-old virgin with Gary's notes all throughout. So he called me with his notes, but I found the actual script. And he said, you know, this is about love. This is about the fact that he falls in love. And because he's in love, his sex is better than all of his friends' sex. Right. And he's like, you have to find a way to show that.

1:01:29And I didn't know how to do it because I'm like, I can't end it with just like the greatest sex scene. But as a friend, we were all there for each other. And a lot of ways, you know, still are, but more, you know, distant because people have their own worlds. And new people they work with, that all happened in the normal, natural way. But for a while, you know, almost like a music scene, everyone was in Seattle. Yeah. And I think it helped all of us. You know, Seth and Evan, you know, were producers. in addition to Seth acting in the movies. So they would be there for all the punch-ups and all the creative conversations.

1:02:10And I produced movies for a lot of people. And then friends who had nothing to do with it would come and just pitch and help. I remember we did a Pineapple Express table read and people had such incredible notes. One friend of ours was like, this is about the fact that Seth Rogen doesn't know if he wants to be friends with his dealer, but his dealer really wants to be friends with him. And it was in there, but we didn't really know that that's what it was about. And as soon as someone— That unlocks, like, the whole movie. Yeah, and suddenly the whole movie was funny because this one friend said, this is what you just wrote.

1:02:50Right. And so it was definitely a really special time. and I think, you know, I had two young daughters and, you know, I was working and Leslie was working, but I also made a point of trying to shoot almost all of it in town, sometimes down the street. You know, one movie we shot on our block. So there was a real intention to not be the dad that disappears. So we shot Walk Hard in Town and Knocked Up and 40 Old Virgin and Funny People. I mean, people don't usually shoot movies in L.A. because it's cheaper out of town. And whatever power we had, we used a lot of it to stay in L.A. and be normal human beings.

1:03:35Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, you know, a typical perspective on Hollywood is, you know, cutthroat. Everybody's stabbing each other in the back. Everybody's lying to you. They're telling you what they want to hear. It's like this sort of like a succession sort of situation where, you know, you can't trust anybody. everybody's screwing around on their partners and spouses and all of that. And you're a guy who's making tons of movies and TV shows, living a pretty traditional, like child of divorce, clearly went into your marriage with a commitment to do it differently. And you've been with your wife forever and you have two daughters that, it appears that you have great relationships with and you've been able to have like a, you know, a really kind of conventional family upbringing in an insane town while doing tons of work with a perspective that, you know, the pie is unlimited.

1:04:30Like, the best idea wins. Let's do this as a community, as a family, bring more people in. Like, that is, you know, that sort of like camaraderie team approach, I think, would surprise people who have like a projected idea of what it's like to make a movie in Hollywood. Everybody does it differently. This came organically out of Freaks and Geeks and Undeclared, where we met all these people, the shows were canceled, but we all felt like we haven't really tapped this. And we knew that so many of the people involved were special. And not just the actors, the production designer, Jeff Sage, who did Undeclared, and Freaks and Geeks did tons of movies with us and still does.

1:05:15and just people in all positions. Russ Alsobrook, our DP on Freaks and Geeks, you know, did Forgetting Sarah Marshall and did, you know, Superbad. And so we just wanted to keep working together. And so... The traveling circus that doesn't leave town. Yeah, and I encourage everyone to write, and oddly, they did. And so... But when you look at the cast of Freaks and Geeks and Undeclared, you know, Now, obviously you have this keen eye for emerging talent or who would be good, or you see Lena, I know you came into that project later, and keeping those people close and sort of fostering their careers and believing in them in a way that, I can't help but think, was your relationship with Gary Shandling, right?

1:06:04Like this idea, you meet him very young, he gives you this job to write jokes for the, it was the Grammys, right? Was that the first thing? and he plays this incredibly powerful role in your life as like a mentor, like just a force of nature. So talk a little bit about, like I'm interested in the kind of mentorship piece and how you think about returning the incredible, you know, sort of favor that he did for you with all the young people that you work with. well I met Gary doing stand-up with him at the comedy magic club and my manager Jimmy Miller was like hey Gary you should use use Judd to write you some jokes and Gary didn't seem to show any interest and then a few months later I got a call he's hosting the Grammys and he needs jokes and I was at the improv in Tempe Arizona and I just stayed up all night and wrote like a hundred jokes I just thought, I need to write enough jokes so I'm indispensable to him.

1:07:02And in the morning, we went through the jokes on the phone, and we just got along great. He rewrote every single joke, but I think I was presenting ideas that lit him up. So here's the premise, here's a setup, and then he would just top the punchline every single time. But I think it really worked for him. And I understood music and what all the issues were. He didn't really know that much about music. and then he invited me to go to the show and to be there for rehearsals and be on stage during the show giving him jokes and then we became very close friends and then that becomes like you know a fantasy come true I interviewed him when I was in high school after he hosted the Tonight Show for the first time before he did a TV show and the fact that he would let me hang around with him and suddenly like I'd go over his house and have dinner with him and his girlfriend Linda, and we'd watch TV, and then he was writing the Larry Sanders show, and he would let me read the drafts, and he was casting it, and he would show me tapes, and I would open up for him on the road sometimes.

1:08:04I opened up when he shot his HBO special, and there was a part of me that's like, why is this guy so nice to me? And as someone who came from a divorce, it was very impactful for me because it's someone that had my interest, was the best in the world at it, who wanted to teach me. And created a home for you. Yeah, it was very kind. As a young person. Yeah, and, you know, became just a really close, close friend. And I tried to come through for him. So if he needed writing done, I really worked hard. But I also think I understood him, and I think some people didn't understand him. I think he was a very unique, neurotic person.

1:08:45And for whatever reason, probably just having similarities in complicated moms, something like that. Yeah, yeah. I just spoke his language. I wasn't anywhere near as talented as him. I don't think I was providing him with something that came close to what he could do at that time. But I was a good hang and I was a good sounding board and I helped him stir the pot. And if he said something funny, I wrote it down and wouldn't lose it. And so that's a big... That's an underrated skill probably. Oh, that's a big skill when you're with funny people because they're funny all day long, but they let it all disappear into the ether.

1:09:26So if you're the person that goes, remember you said that thing, and it's a great joke, you know, that's a real gift. And the thing about Gary is he continued to do that. So I did the sketch show with Ben. I asked him if he would be on the pilot doing a cameo, and he said yes, which I think is part of the reason why it got picked up. Him and Roseanne and Tom were in the pilot, And it made us look like we really were connected when we really didn't know that many people. We just got everyone we knew on the pilot. Then he hosted an episode of The Stiller Show or was the guest on one of the shows.

1:10:02And at the same time, he was doing The Larry Sanders Show. And that's how he met Janine Grafalo because I was showing him tapes of her. And then he put her on The Larry Sanders Show. Yeah. And then Bob Odenkirk was on The Larry Sanders Show. So there was a lot of cross-pollination. Right, right, right, right. happening. And then when my show got canceled, he said, why don't you come work for me? He's like, you're going to learn, you'll learn a lot. And I always say, he didn't say, you're going to be so helpful to me. He said, you're going to learn a lot. But over the course of five or six years, I got better.

1:10:36And then he asked me to direct and he asked me to run the show with Adam Resnick the last season. And so he continued to give me opportunities and believe in the next stage of my career. He didn't ask anyone else to direct the show that wrote for the show. When I look back at that now, that's crazy because they were some of the great comedy writers of all time there. But he had some instinct that I could do it. And then when I started directing elsewhere, he'd read the script. He'd look at the cuts. I mean, it's harder now, honestly, without him. I have to really imagine that I'm talking to him and I just finished a script and I really thought like, okay, this is just right.

1:11:17Like it's an episode of the Larry Sanders show. Just think, just put it through the Gary filter, right? Be tough on it. The way Gary would be, ask the questions Gary would ask. Or go back and read his journals about how he thought about his own work. Yeah. And what, what is it? What are these stories really about? What, what kind of lessons are in there? Cause I, to Gary underneath the satire was him exposing all the ways people have trouble connecting and all the masks we wear and how hard it is to be close to people when you're insecure and broken or when you're very ambitious. And I try to get his, you know, his voice in my head and I can.

1:11:57You know, in most situations, if I think about what Gary would say, I usually think I'm pretty close. Yeah. I love the documentary that you made about him. And I think I think he was, you know, on the one hand, like in terms of his work, like so pioneering, not just in how he thought about standup and the evolution of how he kind of arrived at his style, which was to be himself and to be authentic and to try to find those specific things that he was going through that would connect with the universal that obviously is influential in your work, but also reinventing and re-imagining the form of television in that original sitcom.

1:12:36like it's Gary Shandling show or whatever, where he was breaking the fourth wall. And then the show that you worked on with him over the years, like, you know, does Curb Your Enthusiasm happen without that? Like, you know, like the ripple effect of like him sort of pushing the envelope of what television could be, I think is probably underestimated, not to you, but maybe a lot of people. And then beyond that, just the impact that he had on people personally, obviously, like this hugely important figure for you, but you're not alone. Like he impacted a lot of people. Like when he, I mean, it was like, you know, all of Hollywood, you know, there were so many people who have so many stories about how he touched them in really meaningful ways with his, you know, desire to be connected and to be helpful and to be this sort of mentor and the undercurrent of kind of spirituality that he, you know, brought to his work and to other people that I guess began when he had this near-death experience in this car accident when he was young?

1:13:41Yeah, he got into a fender bender and he got out to look at the damage and a car hit one of the cars in the fender bender and he got crushed between the two cars and had to have his gallbladder removed. And he had one of those stories where he said, during the operation, I looked down and I saw everything that was happening and there was a white light and I walked to it and they said, do you want to continue living Gary Shandling's life? And he said yes. And then the next day he could say what happened in the room. And as neurotic as he was, he didn't seem to have a fear of death. That's what is so fascinating about Gary.

1:14:18Because he's still... More afraid of commitment than death. Yeah, really, right? Afraid of engulfment and afraid of losing his freedom. Afraid of being with the wrong person by accident. And yet, there were journals where he was heading into life-threatening surgeries. And he's just very courageous. And he writes in his journal, if you live another year, be grateful. If you live another day, be grateful. And that's what I love about the documentary because Gary on some levels is such a mess, the beauty of someone like him working so hard to understand himself to grow and then to get to a place of just wanting to be grateful and to give to other people on another on another page in his journal it said uh uh give give with no hope of getting anything in return and those were things that he was writing to himself to try to make himself believe them and to try to live them.

1:15:28But just the fact that he was trying and he did walk the walk in a lot of ways where he was giving to me and to a lot of people and he, you know, maybe in relationships, he never quite figured that out. But he was really trying. And then, you know, he got sick and I think he was diminished in some ways near the end of his life and had some problems. But when I went through all the emails from him after he died, every single time I asked him if he could help me with something, he said, yes. Can you go to this thing? Yes. And it was literally 100 times. Wow. Every single time. What time? And that's the thing as a mentor I took from him.

1:16:11I tried to take both from the bad stuff, like don't do that or try not to torture yourself in that way. And I tried to learn from the great things that he did. So for me, in mentoring people, I don't even think I ever thought about it other than it just seemed like that's what you do. It's like if you're like a baby and you know to breastfeed and then you have a baby and you know, okay, now I'm the breastfeeder. Like I guess that's how it works, right? Like people help me and now it's my job to collaborate and help other people. And, you know, the main reason I always do it and did it is because I like it.

1:16:49I just, I'm impressed with creative people. I love the collaboration. I love the friendship of it. It's not like a noble effort. Yeah, like being a supporter feels like that's your design naturally. It's not like you have to force yourself to wear that costume. And it's not like, isn't it so great that I'm doing this or aren't I a great person for doing this? Because I don't think it really works that way. I think you're entering into collaboration. It's like starting a band with each person. And so you're like, oh, should I play drums on this one? You play guitar on that one? And that's really what it is.

1:17:21I'm giving as much as I'm getting. Sometimes I'm getting more than I'm giving from the experience or the work. I'm playing a small role in the work. Maybe I'm just getting this thing made, but someone's doing all the creative work. Yeah. So each situation is very unique. Right. But is there, like when you're writing a script and you're thinking, what would Gary say? or what would his notes be? Do you think, what would Gary do in this situation when somebody calls me and says, do you have 15 minutes where I can run an idea by you, some young writer or something? Yeah, you try to be generous with your time.

1:18:00Yeah, I mean, when you think about legacy, and this is a legacy-obsessed town, right? What are the projects that are gonna live beyond you, et cetera, and then you reflect on, Gary Shandling's legacy, I mean, his legacy is the impact, how he made people feel. I mean, he has this great body of work, but really what people talk about and revere about him is the time that he invested in all of these people out of the kindness of his heart. Absolutely. I mean, that is the main impact of his life. I mean, he inspired people. And in the documentary, everyone at the Simpsons was like, it's Gary Shandling show was where many of those started.

1:18:39Yeah, exactly. And they said, like, he showed us how far you can go, how creative you can be. And it lit up their imaginations. You know, the other person that was an important mentor to me was David Milch, who created Deadwood and co-created NYPD Blue with Stephen Bochco. And he was another one that, you know. Everybody talks, I mean, reveres him as a genius. I mean, it's ridiculous. Like the ultimate television writer. Yeah, and you watch Deadwood, and it's a different kind of genius because sometimes you watch things and you think, I could do something in the universe of that. And when you watch Deadwood, you think there's no chance that me or anyone else on earth could do this.

1:19:25It's just on a completely different level. But David Milch has Alzheimer's now. And so it's been a long time, you know, since he found out. And I go visit him. And, you know, one day I was talking to him and he said, we should write something together. And it's very emotional because, you know, he's far down that road. And I said, what would he write? And he said, something about someone in my situation. And I said, well, what would it be about? And he said, regrets. And I said, what would he regret? And he goes, failures of generosity. and I literally, it was hard to not just start crying hard right there, but it was a reminder that that's really all that you're left with, which is, you know, how did I treat people?

1:20:26How did I treat myself? Was I good to the people in my life? How could I have been better? You know, it was just a gift to even have that moment with him, and he's talked about that at other moments, which is that's his main concern is to be a giving person. And I think all of us as creative people, there's something so self-involved about it and it takes a lot of your bandwidth. And you're always trying to figure out, how do I balance this? How do I be a good parent? How am I available to the people in my life while still doing this work, which just sucks so much out of you? Right. Yeah, when I look at that decade period where you were a maniac, um i'm sure you're thinking like i i'm creating all of these things and this is what my life will will mean right or if you're david milch who was he was i mean he's like a hard ass right like he's a tough guy well he he i mean i never worked with him on those shows but he definitely like a hard-boiled writer type dude i mean he you know he taught at yale but he also you know had a lot of issues with addiction and gambling.

1:21:37And, you know, he was one of those people that would, he would lay on the ground, there'd be a microphone on the ground, and he would dictate the show. And people would wait around while he channeled the show. And he believed, he used to say, inspiration comes to prepared souls. And his whole thing was about that connection. Can you open yourself up and be so present and available that the creativity comes and to trust that. And I learned so much from him about that, you know, to be in that place. Do you practice that when you pair that with, you know, Gary's passion for meditation and all, does that like trickle down into the Apatow daily routine?

1:22:23I try to understand it. I recently took a flow course. Stephen Kotler, who I'm sure you've had on, has these online programs about flow research, which I highly recommend. It was great. But I had this instinct like, oh, I'm too distracted. I need to get my focus back. So I did this online course. work and stuff like that? It's just explaining where the distractions come from, how to prevent them and how to get into a state of flow and how to stay there for a while and to know how to give yourself a break and get back to it, just to really understand how that works in your mind. And I've heard him on so many of the podcasts talking about it.

1:23:11I said, you know what, what if I just committed to doing this? And I'd never done that in my whole life. and they said, and we have coaches who you can speak with, which I did. And it was, you know, it was very simple stuff, but the stuff you just don't do. And a lot of stuff that you've talked about in a lot of podcasts, you know, just wake up in the morning, don't check your phone, just get your ass in the chair. Yeah. Tell everyone not to interrupt you for four hours, uh, take a break every half an hour for five minutes, but don't go on your phone in the break. You know, just all the things interiorly and exteriorly, which will stop your creative flow.

1:23:46Like you can't necessarily manufacture a flow state, but you can create circumstances that make it conducive. Absolutely. And being in that state is like the holy grail of a writer. It's like when Bob Dylan talks about, you know, a song just happened in 10 minutes. Well, that's what that is. Right. There are moments in your life where you can just see it. Like the screenplay I just wrote, I took a hike. I never do that. I never take a hike. It's like rare. And so I said, I'm going to take a hike alone. And like 30 minutes in, like the entire movie just came to me. And then I took this class and then I wrote the movie.

1:24:26I mean, I hadn't written a movie alone in 10 years. I've been writing with other people because I got lonely. I got so bored of being alone. I said, this time I'm going to write it alone. I'm going to get used to being alone again. And everything about the course completely worked. It was hilarious. I mean, I just, I didn't. Did it make you mad that it worked? Well, sometimes I think, well, you know, should I have been doing more writing alone? Right. But I really cherish those times with other people. I should hike more. And the work. But yes, I should hike more. I do take like a 90-minute walk like four or five times a week.

1:25:01But sometimes I listen to a podcast and sometimes I go, I'm just going to do it in silence and see what comes. Or, you know, one of the David Milch things is to, you know, to just start writing. You know, he always says, you can't think yourself into writing, but you can write yourself into thinking. So just start and it'll just come. And so that was a real lesson for me. You know, like there are ways I could be better at this. That's why when you get back to self-help, I'm always looking for something that will make me open up in some way, heal in some way, learn something that will make me more efficient.

1:25:45And sometimes I'm drowning in self-help because I just read and listen to too much of it. Yeah, that creates its own paralysis. Yes, yeah. Because I'm a hoarder a bit, so I'll listen to too much. But with this, I just said, okay, this is really simple. Just get your ass in the chair. and then amazement at it actually working. Yeah, because you're going, how creative am I? Do I have any jokes left in this brain? And to see it happen was really rewarding and made me think, oh, maybe I could do that three more times this year.

1:26:27How do you balance the collaborative aspect of the creation and writing process versus that like ass in a chair alone at home? You know, what is the daily, you know, do you set it up with a schedule? Well, once the script is done, then I just send it to everybody and just go, what do you think? What do you think? And then at some point I'll sit alone and, you know, or with a writer's assistant and just rewrite it. And then I try to read it out loud. And then I can watch it like a movie and see if it works for me as a movie. and then rewrite it, then read it out loud again. And then at some point, if someone will let me make it, we go into rehearsals.

1:27:05And then it changes a lot once the actors bring their stuff into it. How do you know when you have an idea? I think I asked you this earlier, but like that, you know, it's like once you commit to an idea, there's a long road ahead, right? Is there like something, does something light up in your brain where you're like, this is it, or this is the thing? like it or is that an instinct or uh you have an instinct but then you just keep like telling it to people and so you're like they like it it stays with you yeah it seemed funny and it's just like a movie about like guy gets girl pregnant and he hangs out with those stone friends and he's a nightmare but she wants to see if maybe he could be a good boyfriend and you know and then you then you start showing the outline to some friends and you're looking for some reinforcement that you're not in a crazy place.

1:27:57And then at some point you think, am I really going to do this? Okay, maybe I'll write five pages. Let me just see if it comes to life. And then usually you go, oh, yeah, this seems funny. Does it start generally with a conceit for you or with a person, like a character, like, oh, this person, what would this person, what adventure would this guy go on uh i mean each each time is different but i like working from some very passionate idea or truthful idea you know when leslie and i uh you know we're at the hospital having our second uh our second child just everything went wrong uh other than she's beautiful and healthy but like the doctor was mean the doctor was mean the other doctor just didn't show up just left town to go to bar mitzvah and i i just took notes that night i was like this is so crazy how weird this night is so in the back of my head i'm like there's probably a way to tell this story and then you back into it you know eventually uh you know with with pete davidson with the king of satin island we had worked on a different idea for a while and then usually it you just say what should we really be writing about and then it just comes out like are you willing to explore what we probably should explore and pete was and so then we started writing that version yeah yeah yeah yeah it's interesting like knowing when you know it's time to pull the thread a little bit further versus moving on and it's really hard to start a script for me because i think one of the things i always have to get over is by by writing i'm finding out if i'm terrible so it's very easy to not write because if I don't write, I won't find out if I'm bad.

1:29:50Do you still go to war with yourself in that way though? I think so. I think it's subtle, but it's just, just because there's just a little, there's a critical voice that you are always wrestling with that basically says, just don't do it. Just go watch TV. Like you don't have to suffer through this. And to try to turn it into a pleasurable experience, I'm still almost in hyperventilation or anxiety most of the time I'm actually writing. I'm just, my breath gets short. I'm so nervous and I'm trying to like open a spigot and I have to relax to let it come out. But there's just a weird part of me that's just scared, scared it's going to be bad, scared I'm going to.

1:30:34That like Steven Pressfield resistance. Exactly. War of art kind of thing. It's totally that. And that's what the flow thing helped me with, which is, you know, I can toss it all. I don't have to, I can throw out all the work today. Just trust that there might be something good. Like if you, I wrote this script kind of fast and I just said, I'm going to write straight through to the end. I'm not even going to reread yesterday's pages until I get to the end. And then I got to the end and then I started reading it and I was like, I don't even remember writing almost anything. Like I remember the story, but the language and the jokes.

1:31:10and I was really pleasantly surprised by it, but I just forced myself to just go to, you know, that part of my imagination and just follow it wherever it led me. And that's not how I always wrote. I think I was more methodical. And I just thought, maybe I'll just kind of, you know, go into the trance and see what bubbles up. Make it sort of like morning pages, no stakes. Exactly. And I did those, I mean, the Julie Cameron artist way, You know, I did that in the early 90s. Yeah, I think I started that in 90—when did that book come out? 97, 98? I mean, I could have done that in the— No, it was earlier than that.

1:31:54No, no, because I did it in the early 90s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, yeah. I could have even done it in the late 80s. But, you know, so that idea of morning pages to just write, don't judge, just whatever comes out, it doesn't matter. which was also a David Milch exercise where he said to get your creative juices going for two weeks, right, for 20 minutes a day, print it and then tear it up. Just to get used to your brain being creative. Like the Zen Buddhist sand mandala. Exactly. But he said, you'll open up that part of your brain and it'll fire up. and I'd never done that but I understand what he's talking about.

1:32:37Just not being precious, not being too attached. It's like having a baby. Suddenly your body knows how to make a baby. Your whole life is not making a baby then one day this machine builds itself and you have a baby. Well, this is a part of your brain or your mind that you can turn on and it builds itself to be creative if you just start doing it. There's something about consistency and momentum also. Yes. You build a little momentum, and then you're kind of, then suddenly there's something real about it. And then you're like, oh, this is a real thing. Yeah. And I always think if I'm on page 60, I can finish it in a weekend.

1:33:16Wow. I don't always do it in a weekend, but I think if I get to 60, I could write 20 pages a day for two days and have a really shitty draft. And then I'll fix it up. how often do people ask you about when you're gonna uh write this is 50 people have been asking because it's been on netflix and and uh and i have an idea for it oh you do and so you know i'd have to sit down and do it which i've thought about maybe trying to do that before i shoot the next movie to take a few months and and write that and try to do that in a year or so. You're leaving? Are you going to work on something? Like you're leaving town to go work or is that just...

1:33:59Oh, I'm going to London. My daughter is in Cabaret in the West End. So that's what you do when your kids move out is you just go to where they are and just stalk them. We're in your office right now. We're in the middle of a strike. Yes. You've shared thoughts and opinions on what's going on right now, but maybe you could kind of explain the conflict that's happening right now between the Writers Guild and the industry at large? Well, when technology changes, the way people get paid needs to change. But what is tricky about it is for this industry, it really only works if the writers can survive.

1:34:48So if the way people are paid makes it so that writers can survive, then the writers won't be writers or they'll disappear. And the way that writers survive gig to gig is that in between gigs, they get paid for the reruns of previous work. And when that's not fair, writers can eat. And then, you know, a lot of these shows, they're not 22 episodes anymore. They're six or they're eight. So right there, a lot of people are not making what they used to make because that means you have to get two jobs a year or three jobs. And it never times out that you could fill your year for most writers. And it's a big problem and it only gets solved because the streamers want the writers to be solid.

1:35:33They have to have the intention because if the writers aren't working and getting residuals, money doesn't go into their health plans and their pension plans. And then suddenly none of the writers have health care or the actors have health care. So hopefully they'll figure it out. And it's an exacerbation of what was already lopsided in favor of the studios versus the writers. The writers have always been sort of shortchanged. changed. It appears like in this equation of being equitably treated. And it's a little bit different whether you're talking about movies or TV. Like in movies, there was always home video and DVD and all these ancillary markets, foreign territories, et cetera.

1:36:12So, all these revenue streams were kind of percolating in over time. And then in television, which heralds the writer a little bit better, especially on big shows than it does in movies, you have these showrunners. It seems like there's a little, I'm interested in this, like, there are like a lot of these really big showrunners, right, who have massive deals with streamers and networks and et cetera. And then you have legions of writers who are, you know, semi-employed, sometimes employed, et cetera. At some point, what is the political heft of those showrunners who are like, they can wait it out, they're getting paid plenty of money to say, you know, enough's enough, we gotta get back to work.

1:36:55let's just end this you know how how how it how it ends i mean mike white's over in thailand right now sitting around you know interrupted in the middle of white lotus at some point hbo has got to go we gotta we gotta we gotta get this show made well i mean i think people start noticing that they're not getting anything but reality shows and i think it it probably affects stock prices at some point when you go, Stranger Things isn't coming anytime soon now. And a lot of these programs that everyone loves and wait for, they're not in production. So you hope that this gets resolved before people suffer a lot.

1:37:37And the thing that always frustrates me is whatever the solution is, they could have thought of it three months ago. There's nothing. But you had said, and I think you're right, like they already know. They already know what they're going to settle for. Yeah, they know their numbers. And so a lot of people suffer. A lot of the support people in the community, the restaurants, the other studios, and people on the cruise suffer. And they really don't need to. What the end result of this will be will not be shocking. And that's what the drag of the whole thing is because it really is unnecessary.

1:38:07If they wanted to solve it, they definitely could have. And that's what I think is awful. But it is an enormous amount of companies who have to agree on the solution. And some of these companies, they're not really entertainment companies. You know, they're computer companies that have a little tiny entertainment business to them. Yeah. So I think it's much more complicated. And then they all say, oh, we're suffering, we're suffering. But then all the heads of the companies are making so much money. And you're like, well, if you're getting paid that much, I think your business is working. Yeah.

1:38:42You can't say the business isn't working if you could justify your salary. So if the business is working, then we're doing a good job too, but we're not actually being paid for the job that we're doing. You know, it's also about creativity. You know, what people don't like to talk much about is like all the metadata leads you to a very bland place. They know exactly what people are watching, how long they're watching, when they tune out. They use all of that to decide what kind of stories they're going to greenlight. The great stuff is the unexpected stuff. You can't use an algorithm to make Taxi Driver.

1:39:20They're never going to ask you to do Taxi Driver. They're never going to ask you to do Raging Bull. They're always going to ask you to do a very middle-of-the-road action film. And that's a big problem because then they go, all right, well, now we'll only use the biggest stars in the world and we'll pay them$35,$40 million to be in it, which is fine for those to exist. But when you put all of your energy into those types of movies, then you're not really looking to make moonlight. You're not looking to break ground. And so they don't trust their own innovation and creativity. They really only trust more than ever a super famous worldwide star to attract subscribers.

1:40:03So it's the worst version of bean counting. And it took a few years for it to happen. But now they have so much information. They're like, yeah, people don't like this type of movie. But if you were to pitch Midnight Cowboy, nothing about their metadata would say, you know, this is what the world wants. They really want this movie about these hustlers in New York. Like, they would never, ever make it. And that, I think, is the tragedy of all of this, which is it's so money-driven. and it wasn't in the beginning when the streaming started. Some of the appeal was we're taking crazy chances and a lot of that is beginning to disappear.

1:40:43Yeah, that's gone. And it's not even about how good is the movie or how many people are watching that particular piece of content. What it's really about is this driving subscribers, new subscribers to come. And as they penetrate North America and blah, blah, blah, and they're moving into all these other parts of the world, it becomes about creating for those audiences to tap into that subscriber base. And it has nothing to do with storytelling necessarily. It's detached in a certain way. And then on top of that, you have an industry at large that's become so conglomerized and sort of superhero-ified.

1:41:22Like, how do you think about just that beyond like the streamer aspect of it, just the way that the movie theaters operate in terms of the kind of movies that people go to the movies to see how that's changed and evolved over time and how you fit in as a comedy producer, writer, director. I just think you need all of it. It's just what are the proportions? We love action movies. We love sci-fi. We love horror movies. We love romantic comedies and comedies. But if it used to be 25 % comedies and it goes down to 4%. We pay a price for that. I mean, if you look at the world right now, because there's not an enormous amount of support from the studios for comedies, and a lot of the big comedy stars aren't in the theaters anymore, we almost don't have the next generation of comedy stars.

1:42:15And then it becomes something that you can't stop because we haven't trained the audience to watch comedies and we haven't introduced them to people who become the next Kristen Wiig or Sandler. And so that funk happens, and then people are like, do we even need it? And that's the problem because if you notice on all streamers, everything leads to like murder, you know. True crime. True crime, kids being abused, women being abused, and they get huge numbers for that. So you go, wow, there's a lot of that on there. Right, a lot of serial killer docu-style stuff. Like if it bleeds, it leads. It becomes such an enormous part of it because I don't think that everyone is focused enough on, let's do something good that we're all proud of.

1:43:13Just because people would watch a lot of that, do we have to make that much of it? And I think the stock market and the financial forces say, yes, yes. You're not allowed to try to make these other movies. You're not allowed to try to make Boogie Nights. You need to stay mainly on the topics that our metadata says people like. And that's a natural part of business, but it's way worse than it used to be. It used to be, you know, there was always the popcorn movies and then challenging movies. but you know when streamers lose interest in independent film they and they think well we're not getting enough viewers and it's not in the theaters it can completely disappear uh that and that part's really scary so what is the antidote to that well like for me as a fan of all the streamers and i work with all the streamers i just think the mistake that they're making is they want everything to be flashy so you'll get the streamer to see the show right i want you to see this because it looks wild.

1:44:18But a lot of great stuff is more muted and it's subtler. And so you lose all of that. So for a TV show, they want to be loud show. They always say, we want it to be sticky. That's what they'll say. And then they also think that the amount of people watching it generally goes down year to year and they don't really need more than two or three seasons of it. So the audience doesn't have that relationship. And they also don't trust the streamers because they think, well, I don't want to fall in love with this show because I'm not going to get six seasons out of it. I'm not going to get that relationship.

1:44:49And so what I think everyone should do is like, why don't you just make it so your streamer has good stuff? And it doesn't have to be like everything conquers the world. There should be things on the streamers that don't make economic sense. And I think in the old days, someone like Brandon Tartikoff would go, I believe in Cheers. I'm just not going to cancel it. I believe in Seinfeld. And that would happen. Shows sometimes took two, three years to find their audience. And those are the shows that all the streamers want to re-air. Right. Or all those shows that were believed in when they weren't doing great.

1:45:26And I think you should watch like a streamer and think, I bet you no one watches this show, but the head of the streamer loves it. That was what was great about some things on network TV. Like you knew like, oh, like even with movies, I know even from studio heads are like, I make this movie, so I'm allowed to make this one. I'll take the hit on this small one because I really am proud of it. And we need more of that. Things that don't make economic sense. Right. And then we would love our streamers more because it would have a little more heartbeat to it. There's still a little bit of that though, isn't there, with prestige directors.

1:46:03They know the movies aren't going to make a lot of money. Maybe they'll even lose money, but they want to be in business with this person and perhaps there's Oscars attached to it and that kind of thing. But it's almost like you need a new streaming service where the mission statement isn't growth necessarily. It's just like, let's just – Quality. Like a criterion collection for just cool shit that's new, you know? Yeah. I mean, it feels like all these places just want to be – not in the worst way, but they just want to be Walmart. They just want to have everything on it so you never go to the other streamer.

1:46:39And as a result, they lose some personality. And everyone's spread too thin. Everyone has to make too much. It takes people to help you with these things. And so how many people know how to develop comedy? How many people know how to develop shows? How do you learn how to do it? Do you have enough time on one or two shows? Say you're covering 30 shows. can you really learn how to do it versus if you just had three shows or four shows that you were responsible for as an executive. So there's all sorts of reasons why things get flattened out. And all the people involved there, everyone is, you know, they're all good people.

1:47:18They're all smart and funny and interesting. It's just the system is so dominant and the people who control the levers of it, I don't know if enough of the time they're pushing for experimentation. because that's how you get the Sopranos. That's how you get those things. Right, and you need to, you know, every once in a while, the Squid Game comes along to remind everyone, like, oh, it's something really good that's brand new and completely out of the box. Beef. That gets people excited about, yeah, Beef. Beef is an amazing show. Yeah. Remarkable. But we just need more of that, right? Like, how did that even happen?

1:47:56When I watch it, I'm like, how did this even happen? It's so good. It's the craziest shit that show is on. And White Lotus happened because there was a pandemic and they needed a show and Mike said, I have an idea and they let him do it at a time when no one else really could get into production. And it wasn't meant to be more than a season. Yeah. And now it's cornerstone of HBO. Yeah. And so it's those weird flukes. So you have to create an environment for flukes. You have to let creative people really take big risks to have that reward. And so that's the danger of a system that really rewards what they perceive as successful because things can get a lot of viewers, but this is my new thought.

1:48:39You can have things that a lot of people watch, but it also doesn't mean they liked it. You know, they talk a lot about completion rate. Oh, well, they completed it. I complete a lot of shit I don't like. Are you a guy who's just going to see it through no matter what? Or do you pull the ripcord like on episode two of something that's not? I tend to only pull the ripcord because my wife has advanced ahead of me. And then, you know, I'll come home and we're on episode two and she's like, I watched five today. And I'm like - He's that little white line at the bottom. And then I can't find the time alone to watch the rest of the series.

1:49:15But I do think that's a big, you know, a big part of it, which is pride in the work above all, above the numbers. That's what people can feel. You can feel someone at this place, wherever it is, they love this. You can feel the love of it and the passion for it. It's not just a placeholder. It's not filling a need. You mentioned beef. Is there anything else that you've seen recently that you thought, this is really excellent and new and fresh? What else have I been watching? I mean, I'm mainly a documentary fan. I do documentaries, but I just – everything in the world of documentary I tend to watch series-wise.

1:50:07What did we watch? We watched Daisy and the Six. It was very good. We enjoyed that a lot. I haven't watched that yet. You know, Barry and Succession are pretty remarkable, and it's sad that they're gone. That's two giant holes in television. My daughter is on the TV show Euphoria, which I think is a really special show. I mean, that is just a juggernaut and such a iconic cultural memento for that generation. You know, obviously I have kids as well and they love it. I love watching Euphoria with them. As rough as that can be. Yes, I know you've been asked about that. Like, what's that like to have your daughter on that show?

1:50:46I mean, it's intense, but it's real. And I think it's cool to watch that show with teenagers and it opens up, you're meeting them where they live and where they are. And I've just found that like the communication that you can have after that is, you know, really a unique thing. I think it's an amazing show. And I love what Sam Levinson did with it over the two seasons. Because by the end of the second season, you realize what his whole point was. He really stuck the landing on the idea of those two seasons. I think I meet way too many adults with kids who say, I can't do it. They'll watch one.

1:51:29And maybe the first one was too scary for most people because I think there's a fair amount of people who didn't get to the second one. And they really are missing out on something. I mean, it is a lot. It is a lot. I'm empathetic to that impulse. If you had a film camera shooting me sexually in high school, you'd be disgusted by that too. it wouldn't look like euphoria though it wouldn't look like you for so like anytime you show that explicitly you know especially as a parent that's rough but you do have to get over that and i think in terms of all the issues about addiction there's important messages in there i think some parents are like well does this make them want to do it and i'm like i don't know they're all in hell it doesn't seem like that's the fun party right to watch the whole thing there's a huge price to be paid for all of it.

1:52:21And I think that he finds the cinematic language to connect with kids and then to get a lot of very important ideas through. I agree a hundred percent. I think it's really potent and powerful. And, you know, to cast a, you know, just to say, put your blinders on and say, I don't want to look at that is to not engage with on some level, you know, the reality of that time for young people that is very, I mean, we live in an urban place, you know, maybe we're exposed to stuff that wouldn't exist if you lived in some small town in the middle of the country. But, you know, I think a lot of the themes that they explore, I mean, there's a reason why that show is so big.

1:53:03It's because it is tapping that nerve of truth for that generation. Oh, absolutely. And you can't really look away from it when you have kids. Yeah. Because they're having a completely different experience of reality than we had when we were young. It's just completely different. And just the fact that they like it makes it worth watching to just get a sense of how do you grow up with this much social media, this much judgment of you. I mean, when I was a kid, I don't think I even knew what I looked like half the time. Can you imagine like having this thing in your pocket that was reflecting back to you the good and the bad of everybody that you know, what they're saying about you, what they're doing when you're not around, what you've been disincluded from?

1:53:49That's the thing I noticed with my kids. The hard part was they knew what everyone was doing. They knew when they weren't invited. I never knew. I wasn't invited to anything, but I didn't know it.

1:54:04but the psychic pain of that and also to just feel like you need to be attractive all the time i mean if i had to put up a picture every day during high school of what i looked like and tried to make it look good or to make it look like i'm having fun or to try to be funny and then i'm going to judge based on how people responded if people like me i mean i have issue with that now i'll laugh uh with leslie because i could go through the photos on my instagram and I'm fascinated by what people heart and don't heart. And usually the things that are kind of just me, I don't get almost any. If I put up a picture like me and my wife, I got like 180 ,000 hearts.

1:54:42I'm like, people really like you and not me. But that's a lot of pressure for kids and how they navigate. All the things that we hear about is so important. And how do we know? Like if you can't watch that, How do you even know what your kid is experiencing? Yeah. Not that it's exactly that. Right. And we're running this unprecedented experiment on everyone. And we're doing it to young people while their brains are barely formed. And what does that mean? And how is that going to play out over time? I mean, how many times I've had to say to my kids, it doesn't matter what people say about you. Like someone said, you shouldn't care about anyone's opinion who you wouldn't ask for their opinion.

1:55:27Right, which is true. And, you know, coming from dad, like that's not connecting. I'll say it every day though. They don't, you know, like they're now, they have these careers and they're in the, you know, in the public eye. And, you know, they've been part of all, many of your projects over the years as young people. Do they look to you and Leslie for, like how do you help guide them through that process, having had some experience or do they just say, you know, are you like, you know, out to pasture, I guess is what I'm asking. Like, you know, as a parent, like when you have a 19 year, like they're, you know, they can hear exactly what you would say from some other person that they trust, but they can't necessarily hear it from you as the parent.

1:56:14I mean, they drift in and out of interest in our opinions, but we do have an ongoing conversation about it. And And I think it's similar to – I was listening to your previous podcast and you were talking about the show and why you do the show and how you feel about advertisers and staying in touch with the original reason why you're doing the show. Your vision for it, not getting off track. And that's what I talk to my kids about all the time. Why are you in the business? You should have something that you want to say. hey, you should have a reason and a passion for creativity. And that's what matters most.

1:56:57Way down the line is how do people feel about you. It's really important to have mentors who don't care about the audience. It's not your main thought. But I always read interviews with John Cassavetes because he's always like, I don't care if it bugs them. He's like, all I care about is if in 10 years, you're still thinking about it a little bit. He's like, I don't even need every scene to work. maybe a couple of scenes work for you. Like you need those avant-garde people who have a little disdain for the audience. You need that voice in your head in addition to your voice that wants to connect with everybody.

1:57:33Because that's part of being a creative person or an artist is I don't need everyone to like it. I mean, if you look at the top 10 movies of the year, how many do you like? Maybe zero, maybe two. Yeah, there's a lot of people in the world. Yeah, we're not supposed to like the same stuff. But that goes back to the whole streamer thing. Like they're trying to create for everybody all the time everywhere. And that's death. Yeah, I mean, I like certain movies. There are people who love Marvel. And then there's some people who will never watch any of it. And they're both legitimate point of views about that.

1:58:11But say you're a Marvel person and you're just like destroyed by the people who aren't interested in superheroes. I mean, that's what we're all doing in our own way, which is, yeah, I have a certain genre of what I make. And every once in a while, I'll read from someone who just like doesn't like my stuff. You know, I'll go online and go, oh, funny people's up. I wonder what people think. And, you know, it's usually about like 80, 90 % positive. And then like 10 % are like, it sucked. Do you seek that out? You go, you're like, I'm going to expose myself to that? Occasionally, because I'm just interested.

1:58:39How's it holding up? And I won't go to town with it. But I'll just kind of buzz through. And I'm always happy with people who are like, oh, I watch this movie once a year. And they tell stories about when they watched it or when they first saw it. And then there's just a few people who are like, it's so long and boring. Oh, my God, this is your worst movie. Can you go back to your other stuff? The ad hominem, you know, Judd's a tool. And I always say to my kids, look up Tom Hanks. 10 to 20 % of people will be like, Tom Hanks, it's the worst. Like, look at the Dalai Lama. Someone slamming the Dalai Lama.

1:59:16Like, there's 10 to 20 % of people who don't like every single thing. It doesn't matter what it is. Tom Cruise, Garth Brooks, Shania Twain, you know, me, Sandler. Like, there's a percentage of people. And that's fine. It's supposed to be that. But if you go online and you're devastated by the people who don't like you, then you're in big trouble because it might shut you down. And if your self-esteem isn't strong enough to understand that you're not supposed to win everybody over, you're just supposed to find your crowd. And when you deliver that to Maud and Iris, how does that land? I mean, do they get that?

1:59:56Yeah. I mean, for Maud to be in Euphoria, I mean, she's, you know, it's, you know, charting challenging territory. And I'm sure there's a lot of people who have a lot of issues with that show. and she's at a young age to be on the receiving end of any kind of criticism. But it's also so artistically celebrated. Yeah, it's everything. And so it does require a constant conversation about art. Why do people like this painting versus that painting? You're part of a painting. And also people love to debate stuff. So the main thing I always say is it's a miracle to be on something that everyone's talking about.

2:00:36Because no one watches most things, and the things they watch, they kind of forget about five minutes later. So the fact that you're part of something that's such a giant conversation that will be one of those things that people remember forever, that is a really fantastic opportunity. Because it's hard, especially now. There's 500 TV shows, and maybe 10 are the ones that get talked about a ton. Yeah. Have you had that experience where you're scrolling on your thing, trying to figure out, oh, I'm going to watch, maybe I'll watch this. You click on it and you're like, I already watched it. Yes, yes, yeah.

2:01:13I didn't remember watching it. I used to do a joke on stage about that where I said I got three episodes in and then I turned to Leslie and I'm like, I think we've seen this. It's like three episodes to realize we've seen it. Or the other thing is you watch a series that takes a year and a half to come back, and then you don't remember any of it, and you're like, is Escobar a good guy or a bad guy? Yeah, I've had that experience where it's been, yeah, like a year and a half, and I can't remember anything that happened. And that mental calculus is, well, I'm going to have to go back and at least watch two or three of the last ones just to get ready.

2:01:52And I'm like, I'm not doing that. I got to Google. I got to read the wiki page for the last season. Trying to understand it. I have a question for you, though. So you do ultra marathons and things like that. That's the opposite of what I do. Because I have all sorts of issues around that, like emotional issues around being physical, exercise, jocks, like so much of what... And my world always was, was resenting the jocks because I was so little. I was the youngest kid in the grade. And then bad at sports. And then you wouldn't be allowed in. So they'd throw you in right field. The ball would never come to you.

2:02:37And so you would never have an opportunity to prove that you deserve the better position. And that would just happen for a decade. And so I think that's what a lot of Freaks and Geeks was about. Like these kids who weren't being accepted and they resented. So they become what we always said were cocky nerds. You become kind of funny, but you're scared of the athletes as a kid and the jocks. But you're also condescending to them. Yeah. Yeah. And that for me has been a big thing to get over as I've gotten older and you have to exercise to not die. I never wanted to be around anyone who exercised.

2:03:18No, I get it. Yeah, I get it. It's interesting. I was listening to the podcast that you did with Brene Brown a while back, and she said something like, what do people not know about you or something like that? And you said that I'm an athlete. Your friend tells you, Chud, you're an athlete. My friend Brett Forrester, who is a great writer from The Simpsons in the office, we take like 90-minute walks a bunch of times a week, and he's always like, people don't know, Judson athletes. Judson athletes. How fast you're walking today, people don't even know. But I have to put so much effort into staying consistent with any type of physical exercise because there's some part of me that so resents I have to do it.

2:04:03And before Before the pandemic, I said, I signed up to this really expensive gym. And I'm like, this is really expensive, but I'm going to do it because then I have to go. And then for about a year or two, I did go. And it worked. And then I said, how can I not hate this? There must be a way to not hate doing this because I not only hate this, I hate everyone in here. I hate every person who tells me what to do. And I'm like, so my goal is, could I ever want to come here? And I read a book. You probably know what the book is. It was a book written by Kobe Bryant's trainer. I don't think I read that.

2:04:46And it was all about how Kobe looked at his workouts and just what his mental approach was. And so in my head, I was - The mamba mentality thing. Yeah. And in my head, I just thought, okay, when I'm here, I'm going to pretend I'm Kobe. What would he say? So if I want to get off the treadmill in three minutes, he'd be like, I'm going to stay out here as long as I need to. I love it. Or just like, I want to go farther or faster than I did last time. And I would, in my head, pretend. And strangely, it started working where after like two years, I had a little feeling of like, I want to go to the gym and I'm not mad at everybody here.

2:05:32And then the pandemic hits. And then it all fell to shit. And then it all fell to shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's a lot in there. I mean, the first thing I would say to your first question, the freaks and geeks aspect of it, you know, I relate to that sentiment or that kind of archetype deeply because I was bullied in junior high and high school. I was not an athlete. I can't do anything with eye-hand coordination or a ball. And I was very much an outcast throughout high school. I grew up in suburban Maryland and found swimming. and swimming was like an oasis away from the terrible experience of being in high school and kind of like a womb-like, like underwater, like I can't hear all of that and I'm safe, you know, I'm not gonna get beat up.

2:06:23And it was the only sport that I actually was any good at at all. I had some, I wasn't like super talented, but I was okay. But it was one thing that I could do. And it was also a way to, you know, I wasn't the funny kid. I wasn't the, you know, it was like the one thing that I found kind of a home at where there were other kids who were kind of like me. And so I just doubled down on that. And, you know, I wasn't a good student. I didn't know how to make friends. I certainly didn't have a girlfriend or anything like that, but it taught me discipline and it taught me this equation between hard work and like achievement or moving forward.

2:07:02And I realized like, oh, I'm not as good as these other kids. But if I actually work harder or I do more, like I can like bridge that gap and I can be with them, like create some parity. And that started to spill into my schoolwork and I got better at school. And then I got quite good at swimming. And by the time I graduated high school, I was like getting recruited at colleges and all that kind of stuff, but have always been that kind of bookish, sensitive outsider who felt like everybody else had a rule book for life that I couldn't connect with them. Like never the cool kid. But then I go to Stanford and the swimmers were the cool kids.

2:07:43So this was like, you know, my version of you moving to LA and, you know, like being in the comedian community. and then alcohol fucked it all up, all of that. But to your point of, you know, being an outsider, I've always had that same relationship with bullies and with like football, basketball, like traditional sports guys and that like kind of archetype of what that personality is. And then rediscovering fitness and kind of moving my body later in life was really a function of an existential crisis that I was having as much as anything else. Like the same impulse that made you go hike, and then you realize what that script was, is kind of how it started for me as well.

2:08:33But I ended up enjoying it. So that just was one foot in front of the other of kind of putting the Legos together and then realizing like, I actually like this and I'm actually good at this. And like, where could I take this? Let's see. But it was really from a place of like joy and curiosity. So when you go to the gym and you're trying to force yourself to like enjoy this thing that you don't enjoy and you're trying to run like some kind of mind trick, like I think that's backwards. I think you should find something that is fun, like shooting hoops or pickle ball or like, even walking or whatever it is, and then building on that because that's how you create a sustainable habit that you look forward to and you're not having to try to convince, some days you're not gonna wanna do it, but fundamentally it's like this thing that nourishes you and isn't something that you're constantly dreading.

2:09:27Yeah, yeah, it's a tough one. I think part of it also was, it's connected to not wanting to be in my own head. So when I hear about you running for a great distance, all I think of is like, oh, but then you're just sitting with yourself. Yeah, but that's like, there is something about like, if you can just get your heart rate up a little bit, like more than it would be if you were walking, but not like out of breath that quiets the mind. And yeah, it's uncomfortable, but it's just like pushups. And then, you know, you can go a little bit further and then you sort of look forward in the, it's sort of like meditation, like your mind's attacking you.

2:10:03This is the most painful thing ever. All suffering is because we can't sit alone by ourselves for fucking two seconds. But there's a piece that comes with that. And I think also as a way to nourish your creativity, you already know the relationship between what that experience can be in terms of how you do your work. So I think there's something cool there for you to maybe explore. Lately, I keep thinking, I feel like I'm almost beginning to get it. Just like a general get it. You know, like just lately I feel like, oh, I almost understand, not completely, but more, but of kind of all of it. Like I almost feel like a circle closing and then right when I get it, my body will fall apart.

2:10:54Yeah. It is that thing, but it is like it's also that momentum thing. Like when you're doing it, it's easier to do it. And then something happens, you have to go out of town or whatever, and then you're fucked. and like you never find your way back. Like that's just, that's human. That's just being human too, you know? I don't know. I have faith in you though. Come on, dude. We're like, how old are you? I'm 56. I'm 55. Yeah, so, you know, we can't fuck around anymore. No, no. You know? That's the drag. When I realized like I needed to exercise to stay healthy, it was easier to start exercising.

2:11:29I hated the idea of exercising to look good. I don't know why. I was just like, I didn't like the like guys in the gym I'm trying to get ripped. But what about the feel, like, oh, I feel better? I have gotten to that a little bit. Like, I don't love doing, like, the cold plunge, but I started doing it. Do you have one at your house? No, but I started doing it at the gym. And then I was able to do it for, like, five minutes, and I did it a few times. And then I realized, oh, this strangely put me in a good mood for, like, four hours. Like, a really good mood. I mean, on the flow state thing, like, the cold plunge, in terms of being an antidepressant and just something to kind of calm you down.

2:12:05and clear the mind, like it's pretty effective. But isn't it terrible that like, that's what you have to do? I know, I know. Like that's how the world works. Like you'll feel great, just freeze for five minutes. Yeah, but it's like, is it any different than like, isn't it awful that I have to pull my hair out to like get this idea on paper? Yes. And it takes years and it's like horrible. Yeah. You know, it's rigged that way. I know, I've been, there's so many things that aren't pleasant that now I have no choice but to do.

2:12:36I just came up with the inspirational quote for the podcast. All right, I get it. I got to meditate, then I get in that cold plunge, then I got to find a sauna somewhere, then I got to raise my heart rate. The four-hour morning routine. I mean, it's a lot of morning routine. And that was a big thing with writing the script. Someone was saying, you know, it's okay to do all of your exercise at the end of the day. You don't have to do it first thing because sometimes you're just wiped out from that. Like, you know, write for four hours, then go do it. And even learning that was a game changer because there was no part of my brain that could have figured that out because I'm just so dumb.

2:13:13Like, wait, jog in the afternoon. Like, it would take me 30 years to do that math. It's harder to do that in the afternoon, though. But the tension is if I sit down and write, I'll have something that's permanent, and this is actually what I do. and, you know, the exercise stuff, that's not necessarily critical. I can do that later. But you know, if you do the exercise first, you'll actually feel better and maybe the writing that you do afterwards will be a little bit crisper. Yeah, but then you gotta wake up early. Now I gotta sleep well and get up early. Yeah, sleep well and get up early. The pressure.

2:13:53So many things. Anxiety disorder about being well. Exactly, right? Like the whole day. All right. But don't eat till lunch. Okay. So sleep great. Get up early. Don't eat till lunch. There's so many things. I'm like weirdly kind of uplifted and encouraged by the fact that you are struggling with that equation. But, you know, I kind of get it a little bit. So I mean, I don't think I – until the pandemic, I don't think I took a walk my whole life where, like, I said, Oh, I'm going to just walk for an hour and a half. Never. Would never go on a hike. Wouldn't even think to do it. Treadmill, but would never think like, oh, maybe it's just fun to get outside.

2:14:38It took the world shutting down for me to realize there was an outside, you know. I've heard you tell stories, though, about like walking around your neighborhood and knocking on your neighbor's doors unannounced. I started doing that during the pandemic. I would just knock on people's doors because everyone was just stuck in the house, especially the scariest part of it. Yeah. I just knock on people's doors and they would like – sometimes they wouldn't even open the gate. They'd like talk to me through the gates. Like people were really freaked out. I'm like, how are you doing? Just people I hadn't seen in a long time and people I wasn't even that close with but someone I admire.

2:15:11Like how's it going over the other side of that fence? Yeah, that's cool. All right. Well, we're going off the rails here. Thank you, Chad. Thank you. It was a pleasure and an honor to talk to you. I really appreciate it, man. Pleasure was mine. Great. you have well we're in a writer's strike it's not like you have a movie coming out right now or anything but like you have this book you have sick in the head and sicker in the head yes please watch the documentaries if you've seen all of his big movies already the George Carlin doc and the Gary Shandling doc you have the Avnet Brothers documentary the Avnet Brothers yeah yes yeah Avnet sorry on uh on uh that's on HBO Doc and Daryl yeah ESPN 30 for 30 I haven't seen that oh that's you like that one alright anything else you wanna draw attention do?

2:15:56Your wife on Instagram? My wife. Get the likes? My wife. We all need our likes. Funny people on Netflix? Good deal. Let's pretend that's brand new. The Bubble is also on Netflix. Oh, The Bubble. Yeah. I haven't seen The Bubble. Usually I have like six or eight weeks where these things are scheduled and I can marinate, you know, but this came about pretty quick, so I haven't yet. It'll always be there for you. It's waiting for you. Okay. Thanks, Judd. Cheers. Thanks.

2:16:34That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch. my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

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2:17:59Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:18:27I love you.