Ken Rideout’s Win-Or-Die Mindset: Controlling The Variables, Winning His First Ultra, & Why Discomfort is the Price of Admission To Greatness

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36:19You know, what's interesting is it's one thing to go from marathoning and elite marathoning at the level at which you do it to step into an ultra. Most people would start out with a 50K or a 50 miler. At a minimum, they would enter a race in which you have crew support. They're feeding you, they're taking care of you, they're reading the signs and you're always sort of being held by a group of people who can provide as much kind of morale support as nutritional support. But you sidestepped all of that, did a multi-day race. Your head's not hitting the pillow at home after that thing each night.

37:01And all the mental space that you have to devote to the logistics, to the food, to all the tiny, I mean, this is one of the things we talked about when we talked, like it's these tiny little things that are easy to forget about that can derail you. You get one blister in the wrong place and like you're done because you didn't, you know, make sure that you put your socks on right or you didn't tape your toes or whatever it is. And it's just you and you, you got no one there to remind you about any of that kind of stuff. So how much of that experience was devoted to, you know, kind of the mental aspects of the logistics, right?

37:39Because when you're running a marathon, it's like just, you just, you got this, your tunnel vision on getting to that finish line and you don't really have to worry about much else. There's aid stations, et cetera. But here you've got all these tactics that are brand new to you that can sort of rob you of the mental energy that you would normally devote to just performance. That's exactly why I did it. I know I can show up and be competitive in a 50K or a 50 mile. I know I can. And maybe someone listens like, fuck this guy, he can't do it. I know I can be competitive. I didn't know what I could do here.

38:12and I had spent so long since I felt nervous about attempting something. I always feel nervous about hitting my goals, but to feel nervous about actually being able to complete the event was a new level of nerves. I mean, it was mad anxiety. And to your point, anything could happen. Dude, every day at the end of these stages, people would be in the medical tent. Their feet looked like they walked on hot coals. And I couldn't help but to walk over and be like, dude, what the fuck? Have you done any training? How can your feet be like that after the second day? like how much running have you done i mean if you've been running you shouldn't have blisters like your feet of not blisters dude skin gone feet like their feet are like everything i i'd never seen you didn't have any of those problems i had a couple small blisters that were even with the gators you were able to keep the sand out of your no sand would pour in and anytime it got too heavy i just have to sit down and pour it out quickly but the whole time that i did this i kept that like tortoise and the hare mentality where I'm like I'm keeping moving I'm never stopping I'm just if I have to walk I'll walk lower my heart rate and then I'll jog and then the backpack was such a variable that I hadn't considered I mean it tore the shit out of my body I mean every day I was like covered in road rash like basically but to your point there's a lot of mental energy that's spent on making sure you're eating right am I getting enough calories do I have enough like meal replacement bars to eat during the, during the stage?

39:39Because afterwards, you know, you're eating freeze dried food, pretty, pretty standard. You're just hungry a lot. And I was really focusing on hydration and fueling during the stage. And then afterwards I was like, fuck it, I'm hungry. I'll, I'll survive. Like it's, it's not forever. And I just kept, the other thing that I kept telling myself that, that sincerely work, like we talk about mindset it again and it's easy to gloss over it but i kept reminding myself that i have the best life in the world i'm the luckiest guy in the world i have the fucking nicest kids i've created everything that i've ever wanted for myself i'm lucky i'm so grateful and i just kept saying this is temporary you can take the easy way here and and look for any excuse to get out of here my bag ripped my almost hurt i've got a blister like or you can dig deep and it'll be you'll be so much happier when you get home and this is behind you and the other thing i would remind myself when we get really hard and really hot i would say yo special forces guys are doing this every single day like it's their job because it is and someone's trying to kill them while they're doing it so i'm like are you kidding me someone's gonna save me if i drop dead out here or if i faint we're good and And I would just literally, anytime I got that in that negative space, I'd be like, this is easy.

40:55In the grand scheme of life, compared to what some people have been through and the level of persecution, I'm like, so I have to cover 28 miles or 50 miles today? Like, this isn't challenging. I voluntarily, so I paid for this. Yeah, you volunteered for it. Yeah, you're not being forced to do this. Exactly. Which brings me to this thought that I think we talked a little bit about the first time, which is this unique sort of combination of different sensibilities that you have. On the one hand, you have this incredible certainty. Like you're like, I'm gonna win. I know I'm gonna win. You just, you go into these races with a level of self-confidence and belief in your own capacity and ability to outmatch the best of them.

41:41But on the other hand, you also have this really genuine humility. Like you are in awe of the elites. Like the way that you talk about Des Linden or the other elite marathoners or - Or Cam Worf. Yeah, Cam, our boy Cam, who just went up on the pod. Love it. Yeah, it's like you have a reverence and a respect for the level at which they execute their craft. And that's a unique combination because usually somebody who holds that kind of reverence doesn't have that level of self-confidence and certainty that you have. So how do you, like, what is that mix all about? Well, I think that I'm a realist.

42:21Like I know the difference between me and professional runners is far greater than the difference between me and the next like level of amateur athletes. It's massive. They're on a pedestal. They're like miles ahead. This is their job. This is my hobby. And I love being the best that I can be, but I'm also very aware of the differences between the elites and then the like decent age group runners. Like at the Bear Mile that I did in Chicago, we'll talk about in a minute, I won the like quote unquote celebrity heat. Yeah, I didn't know until I read about it. I thought you won the whole thing and then I read the article on Outside.

42:57He's like, oh, he didn't win the whole thing. No, I wouldn't. You ran like 650 or something. Like the guy who won it ran 430. And the guy who won it sent me a beautiful DM afterwards and I almost glossed over and then I looked back and I was like, oh my God, that's the guy who won. I'm like, dude, congratulations. And he writes back, dude, you killed it. You're a legend. I said, legend? I said, you're a real runner. I'm like the tallest short person. And he's like, no, no, no, everyone who runs is a real runner. But he just couldn't have been a nice guy. But that was a perfect example. That's what all the elites say.

43:24How I think about it is like, I'm the tallest short person and these guys are like the killers. But I will say, I only ran 650. I wasn't challenged. I was drinking out of a can. I do think, and it was the first time I'd done it. And it was athletic brewing, right? but it was an NA beer. NA beer. But I will say that knowing what I know now, whether it was real beer or NA, like I know that I could be closer to six minutes with a little bit of practice. And again, that wouldn't have been threatening anyone, but I was like, this was, the drinking the beer part was harder, but the running was easier than I thought it would be.

43:56After 200 meters, halfway around the track, you start to like, the carbonation comes up and you're like into a groove. But then as soon as you get into the groove, you're like, oh my God, I got to chug another beer. So it was the national championships of the beer mile, right? It was the Beer Mile World Championships in Chicago, sponsored by Athletic Brewing, who sponsored me for the Gobi race. Great guys, awesome guys. And they invited me out there to do that. So I would race Neve Shulman, who's a good friend of mine. I've never met Neve, but I know who he is. Shark Tank. No, Catfish. He's Casey's boy.

44:31Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's how I met Casey. It's Casey Neistat through Neve. So Carl and I - And he's a really good runner. Really good. Yeah. Carlin Isles, who's like the fastest rugby player in the world, two-time Olympian. This guy ran like a 47-400 when he was competing in track. Like elite, elite sprints are like 10-1-700, like elite. So I was like, this guy's going to blow me out. And I walk under the tent before the event. He's like, oh, here he comes. Here's the champs. Guy's going to kill everyone. I'm like, is he talking about me? This is like a real athlete. This guy's going to kill me.

45:05uh and and cynthia uh cynthia from uh nfl networks she does this she's a statistician at nfl networks and uh darren rovell uh the business reporter sports business reporter and um francis ellis from barstool sports who's hilarious really funny guy went to harvard uh and yeah they just it wasn't very competitive but it was a fun time the people couldn't have it nicer. It was like, it was such a nice break after the Gobi race to go there and just like, the people were so kind to me. I was so, I never felt so much gratitude. And my wife came with me first time she's ever come to any race. We got a babysitter.

45:44She came and she was just like, wow, a lot of people that knew who you were. I was like, it's crazy, isn't it? Like, I can't believe it. Well, you're getting a lot, you're getting a lot of ink lately, buddy. Wall Street journal new york times you're having a moment it's crazy isn't it the craziest thing of all that my friend uh nate checkets at roan apparel he introduced me to a dude named brent montgomery who i've become very good friends with and brent is the head of wheelhouse productions big production company they produce alone duck dynasty pawn stars intervention like they're legit they have some huge tv shows and uh we're working on a couple tv show concepts right now in conjunction with a couple of networks that, and we're like right on the finish line.

46:26And if one of them gets done, man, I might be hosting a primetime network TV show. Yeah, it's crazy. Which is a dream come true. You shared with me a little bit about that. Are you allowed to talk about what those concepts are? I can keep that under wraps. Just about what I've just said. So, you know, coming to television sets soon. Yeah. And ride out. Along the lines of prison, something to do with prison. It sounds like it's something you were born to do. Yeah. It's like a dream come true. If it gets made, it would be too good to be true. I don't know that if my body could handle so much gratitude.

46:52Wow. In reflecting, now it's been, what has it been like three or four weeks since the Gobi thing? Two weeks. It's only been two weeks. Wow. Thinking back on that experience, what did you learn about not just yourself, but also about preparing for and running an ultra that you wish you knew going into it?

47:20the things that i wish i knew were just small technical like technical aspects about how to get lighter how to be a little bit more proficient with the pack um but honestly i would say like i said earlier like until you show up and try something you just don't know a lot of people i think that there are a lot of people out there that can do a lot of things but they don't have the guts to get on the start line and it does take a lot of guts to commit to something like that i I mean, dude, even fly, imagine you're on like a 20 hour flight to Korea and the whole time I'm like, what am I doing? There isn't a single ounce of happiness the whole time.

47:54It's just dread. Like, and I was like, I have to get out of this mindset. But I was also like, okay, as soon as this thing starts, we'll start to get into a rhythm. But it was like super nervous, anxious feeling of just, let's just start. Let's just start. It's like, you know, showing up at the Boston Marathon three hours before the race starts. You're like, just shoot the gun. Let's do this. I don't like the anticipation. By contrast to flight home, I was on cloud nine. I was like, oh, I'm so happy I did it. I can't believe it. I mean, you went into it with a level of confidence and certitude that at a minimum, you were gonna complete this thing.

48:30But when I look at it, I think what I take from your experience, making that leap from marathoning into a multi-day race is proof positive that we're all capable of so much more than we allow ourselves to believe. And you fertilized a little seed of belief and then you tested yourself at an adventure that probably a lot of people said, like not so fast, buddy, like maybe start over here. You don't have to go all the way over here. Yeah. And coming out the other side, victory aside, just to understand like, wow, like I actually did that. I put myself on the line. I did something I was scared to do.

49:11I was uncomfortable about it the entire time. And I proved something to myself. And if we can all flex that a little bit more in our lives, not just in sport, but in all facets of our life, I think we all kind of come out the other side, better people, more robust people with a capacity for perseverance. And I know that's a big topic for you, right? Like, how do you think about perseverance? yeah i'm actually working on a speech i've been lucky enough in the last year or two to give a few speeches to schools and uh companies and i'm working on a speech now about the practice of perseverance of actually putting yourself in positions intentionally that are super challenging and like i said it could be anything maybe it's like taking jujitsu uh like that's something right now that's like on my list where i'm like man i'm so freaking nervous to go sign up for jujitsu i've taken classes before but my youngest son dude he's a killer he's seven years old like he's ragdolling 12 year old kids it's i have four kids i signed three i signed all four up three of them quit could they didn't want it understandably the little one it's like a dad's dream come true i watch him and i'm like i cannot believe what he's doing i cannot believe he's adapting and adjusting this quickly he's choking guys arm barring guys i'm like oh my god he's a killer but of all my kids he's the nicest so anyway he's a little what is he the one that that gets the mohawk haircut every year has to have it down this year he's like that down to the skin down to the skin and i'm like mom's gonna kill us he's like i want it and i'm like all right soon as school's over but um yeah so i've been working on this concept of the practice of perseverance like i said it's just It's just putting yourself in a position where the only way you're getting through is to persevere.

50:59Maybe it's writing a book. Maybe it's learning the piano. But we all have things that we wish we did or we wish we could do. And I say, maybe you want to fucking learn how to ride a skateboard in a ramp. Like, I'd love to do that. But I'm like, do I really want to bust my ass 20 times to learn? Although it does look fun if you can learn how to do it. Kite surfing. Oh, I'd love to do that. It looks so much fun. But do I really want to get on and go through the whole learning process? but this is a perfect example with the kids so my youngest and my oldest so the youngest is doing jujitsu the youngest and the oldest went down and started wrestling and they went with an elite wrestling team where i was like guys before we went and i said guys listen if you're not willing to be the worst and to be terrible you'll never be the best because when mike tyson went into a boxing gym the first time he was terrible and if he wasn't willing to get beat up he couldn't have become what he became and that goes for any fighter and any wrestler anything you do if you're not willing to stink initially you can't get to the next level because if you could show up and be awesome on day one then what the fuck would you want to be the best at it for if anyone can show up and be awesome the point of having something that's important to you and an accomplishment is that it took perseverance and wrestling is is a perfect example so we went down the people were super kind they were the kids were nasty good i mean at one point they're warming up and the guy's like all right guys cartwheels forward rolls back rolls all right guys back handsprings i'm like back handsprings someone's gonna break their neck a bunch of kids just guys start back handspring that so my some of the kids just did like a back roll and popped up my little one flips right over i'm like you know how to do a back handspring he's like no i just made it up wow but i mean that's that's the way yeah yeah that's the the point is like if you can't persevere through some discomfort you can't get to like the promised land you can't get to the top of the mountain unless you're willing to persevere up to like hot middle section where you're like questioning your like decision and i i believe that you can practice that ability to persevere through anything and this to me was a lesson to myself like yeah this sucks i don't know if I can do this.

53:13I have never run in the desert. Like I said, I never slept in a tent. The whole thing overwhelms me, but I was like, fuck it. I'm doing this. It's like jumping in the ocean and being like, Hey, I got to swim to that Island over there. Well, the only way I'm going to get there is if I jump in and start. So I just, that, that, that's the whole concept is like finding things that intimidate you and scare you and figuring out, can you do it? And if you don't do it, what can I learn? What can I do differently? What can I do to go back and fix this? When I think about perseverance, I think about growth mindset versus fixed mindset, which is basically what you just laid out, right?

53:47Are you willing to look bad in front of other people? Are you willing to not be great at something and like liberate yourself from whatever narrative you tell yourself about where you're at, right? You need that in order to grow. But beyond that, perseverance requires a capacity to suffer, a stick-to-itiveness, like a sense of belief in yourself to get you through hard times that comes with experience of continually putting yourself in those situations. And just an overall capacity to weather grit, right? And I often wonder how much of that is God-given you come out of the womb or through the various experiences that you have as a young person that gets instilled into you or whether that's something that you can develop.

54:40Can you go from somebody who has a fixed mindset to a growth mindset? Can you be somebody who is fearful and not somebody who's putting themselves in difficult situations and over time develop that grittiness, that ability to persevere? Like how much of this is innate versus something that you can learn and develop? I do believe that some people are born with the killer instinct that they're like, I'm doing everything. Life's an amusement park. I'm riding every ride. And there's other people who are like, I'm sticking on the Ferris wheel. It's like, I know what I'm getting and it's cool. And that's fine.

55:17But I think for the people that want to develop that mindset, that it's 100 % achievable. And it doesn't have to start with something as crazy as like going across the desert, but it might start with like signing up for a 5k for someone who's never run a mile and just being like, I'm setting some goals. I do believe that it becomes contagious. It's like losing weight or getting over drugs. It's like you start to build momentum with a little bit of longevity behind you with sobriety, with weight loss. You start to see the results and you're like, oh shit, I might be able to do this, but nothing changes unless something changes.

55:51You have to take the first step and like be willing to get uncomfortable and I always think man when I'm feeling super comfortable and things are so good even my wife be like dude we're at the beach just sit and chill I'm like I feel like I'm wasting time I do think that there is a important component about being able to relax and uh unplug and decompress 100 % I don't do it well but I do know that that's something that I've got to work on but that's the mindset that I've developed is like, man, it's life is short. And especially as I've like turned 50, I'm like, Oh my God, I'm on the back half, man.

56:26I got to make sure I get everything in within reason. And, um, actually the last time I was here, when you, uh, my wife listened to the interview and she's like, man, that guy, rich, he's a mastermind. He could be a psychologist. He's like PhD in psychology. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, when he was asking you about, um, do you think you're running has become a new addiction and could be like maybe an issue or something to that effect? I was like, yeah, 100%. I'm super aware of that and very cognitive of that. And I've thought a lot about it since then. And trying to find balance. And it's funny because after we did that interview and I thought a lot about that, I went to a place called Onsite Workshop, which is a trauma healing center.

57:09There's one in Nashville and one in SoCal. And it was like life-changing for me. It was - In what way? they based you know i didn't think i had any trauma in my life i was like i had a traumatic childhood and i mean not relatively speaking not that bad oh come on yeah so she they they pulled the covers on that one quick i i would imagine i was in one-on-one intensive therapy for like five or six hours a day with a psychologist that was like by the end i was like you're a fucking mastermind you're a genius like you saw right through me she was literally like she just picked everything apart and all the things that i thought i was so confident about she was like is that really true and i was like dude i cried more in that week than i've cried in my life she would put that we had it was very interactive which you know on the surface i'm like i don't want to do this hocus pocus shit but by the end i was like what else do you got for me tell me what else fucking paint rocks i'll do it let's keep going so she puts up all the stuff on the wall you know like about your childhood and who are these characters identify and we're going through it and so she's talking and then after a day or two she's like look up on the wall at like what you've reflected on as your childhood and you know she's like who would this person be i'm like fire breathing dragon she's like okay so she's like do you think that in hindsight do you think you've had trauma there and i'm like i'm like a crying mess i'm like i can't believe this and it It just, it gave me my home life and my relationship with my wife and my children has never been better as a result because I was like.

58:44I was almost trying to force my beliefs or my way of doing things on the children versus being amenable to what if nothing else what my wife suggests my wife grew up in the most healthy environment. loving family my wife is like the baby whisperer she's like she's what i am to running she's that times 10 to being a parent she's just awesome at it that's all she ever wanted to be she's good at it so what i realized in this is like she knows some of this stuff i don't know it it gave me pause and and showed me how to like take a deep breath and like not be afraid to let to give up some of the control and it more than anything taught me patience with the kids so like as an example I'd be recording the podcast they'd be in the in the theater underneath my office jumping around playing music and I'd go down there typically I'd be like guys hold on guys what are you doing how many times I gotta tell you I'm recording it's only an hour a week cut the crap instead I go guys hey I'm sorry hey I'm recording man if you guys could just keep it down they're like dad so sorry we're gonna go outside and i was like oh my god that was magic what a difference it seems like such a small thing but that's actually a big deal but to get to that point i had to do some work you couldn't just tell me like try this i had to understand the like the the kind of ramifications behind it and like why would i try that and when you understand she's like would you want to ever make your children feel the way you felt and i was like again a mess I was like, I would rather be dead.

1:00:26I would never want my children to feel like that. And it's not that I'm not firm with them. I was just too firm. So finding that balance of like firm and like tenderness was critical. And honestly, part of the reason where I committed to doing this was because of the conversation we had and just reflecting on like, just going out and flogging myself and trying to be the best at running doesn't take away the work that has to be done behind the scenes. and the impact that I'm having on my own children. And I think that it's easy to forget that children, especially young children like what my children were and are, is their first memory, you think about your first memory, your first experience with a roller coaster, with an airplane.

1:01:11It's etched in your mind forever, whereas you and I could go on 20 flights a year and not remember any of them, but you remember the first one. and all of their experiences are first time experiences. And like, it's my job to make sure that they're as positive as possible. Not like, I remember the time I went to the beach with my dad and I ordered the wrong sandwich and then he got mad and threw it in the trash. Right, which is something you might've done in an offhanded way and forgot about and had no sense that that's getting deeply embedded in that kid's brain. And 30 years later, they're gonna be thinking about that.

1:01:45Cause my parents did that shit to me. And when I was there at that center doing this like deep dive into like my own mental health I was like oh my god that's exactly what happened to me and I was like oh my god how do I undo what I've already done wrong and she's like no no you don't have to worry about that just go home and be the best version of yourself and like they'll understand that people make mistakes so like as an example my youngest son he's in jiu-jitsu last week he goes on Fridays it's really competitive like competition jiu-jitsu and the kids from out of town who's like 11 he's seven and the kids like three belts higher than him he's training for a tournament he's so much more experienced it's like a almost like a teenager rolling with him most kids that are that much better even in boxing and wrestling they know when they're outmatched and they take it easy on the little kid this kid beat the shit out of my son for 30 minutes it was so hard to watch and i was getting pissed at the coach because i'm like look you're gonna get him demoralized at some point but cameron kept fighting kept fighting and at some point he was kind of given a half-assed effort and i couldn't help myself i'm like cameron come on and he lost it started crying and it was i was mortified i was i was crushed i was like dude i'm so sorry and i was like man i get emotional thinking about it now because i had to like own that and take responsibility and it's in fucking monday he's like dad let's go jiu-jitsu we got to get ready and i was hoping that i didn't want to be like hey we got jiu-jitsu and then the coaches were like cameron good for you because they will i mean he got the shit kicked out of him and he kept fighting and i just was like i wasn't i think i was as much yelling at the coach as i was at him like come on man what are we doing the kid's getting the shit kicked out of me and he's not trying anymore like this isn't counterproductive and i think we all learned a lesson there but i was like i'm never ever offering coaching again at any kid's sport i'll walk outside i don't want to be that parent living vicariously through my kids which is why i have my own things going on i don't want to be that guy but valuable lesson and painful but necessary.

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1:05:19Well, first of all, massive credit to you for even signing up to go into that kind of trauma work. I think it's super important. It's clear as day to me when I look at your backstory and the things that you lived through that your past is littered with traumatic experiences that until you start to excavate, you don't understand the extent to which they're controlling your life unconsciously. And as somebody who grew up in a chaotic situation, it's no surprise that you're gonna wanna be a control freak, like control the variables and be in control of all the kind of aspects of your life from business to running, et cetera.

1:06:03And with that comes a sense that this is how you survive. Like this is how you live. Like it's well-intentioned. It's a defense mechanism. It's a survival tactic, right? And there's no reason to believe because you're successful on the outside that this is problematic until you start to look into it and you realize the extent to which you're living your life unconsciously, repeating patterns that you inherited or that you developed as a means to survive a very difficult situation. And then comes the revelation of letting go of those and trying something different. Now you can have the most capacious growth mindset of all time, but undoing that hardware and rewiring is one of the most difficult things you're ever gonna do because I'm sure, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this, what comes up is, hey, this is how I do everything in the world.

1:07:00If I let go of that, all the good things in my life go away. I don't know how to function in the world anymore. Yep. That's one of the scary, I mean, you could talk about being scared to go out for seven days in the desert, but that's life-threatening. 100%. The work that I had to do at Onsite was 10 times scarier than going to the desert. When I was driving to that place, I was like driving to like a life sentence. I was like driving to jail. I, again, I sound like a big - What was the instigating incident? Was it, did something happen? Like what convinced you that you should go do that? Honestly, I think one of the big turning points was like listening to this interview back and listening to myself, like realizing how dependent I was on achievements and accomplishments and running and like all the extracurricular stuff to validate myself and thinking about that.

1:07:48And my relationship with my wife was terrible. I was just like a monster. I was trying to control everything, trying to like just do too many things. And honestly, I think my relationship was in such turmoil with my wife that I was like desperate for help to fix it because I knew that I'm the problem. And my friend who I bought my house from in Tennessee, he had gone there and it was expensive. Maybe it was like 10 grand for like four days, which to me is expensive. But at the same time, I'm like not to explain how much is your life worth? and I called him up one day. I was looking at it, looking at it.

1:08:23I knew I needed to do shit. I knew I needed therapy. But to me, going once a week to therapy would be like putting your finger in a dam that's about to crack in the dam and the dam's about to break. Like, hey, once a week ain't gonna help me. I need like that heavy artillery. Like when I talked to you about the ultra, I was like, hey, when's the soonest I can get into on site? And they were like, then. And next thing you know, I was like, oh my God, what have I done? Just like with the Gobi Desert. I was like, dude, it was crazy. I drive up there and I didn't know any, like the Gobi Desert, I didn't know what I didn't know.

1:08:53And with the onsite, I didn't even care to research it. I was just like, I'm just going, get there. Didn't know if I could keep my phone or not. Didn't know anything. They were like, phone's gone. I hadn't put on like email alerts. Like, hey, I'm off the grid for four or five days, whatever it was. I think it was five days. And then they're like, okay, here's your cabin. You're in that cabin over there. I'm like, do I have my own room? Cause I requested my own room. And they're like, no, you don't have, you have roommates. I'm like, roommates. It's, I'm like, oh my God, what the, I get in. I'm a grown ass man.

1:09:22There's three bets. I had the calendar up, it's taped up on my wall with all the sessions and I'd X them off. Like we were in jail. I'm like, dude, one more session down. We're almost out of here. I go, guys, we're halfway done. Let's go celebrate. I'll buy Cokes for everyone. But there wasn't even soda there. You know, it was all, everything was controlled. But yeah, it was just a lot of hard work. And like I said, I didn't know anything. and man, like I said, I sound like a big baby. I spend more time crying and then just driving home and like apologizing to my wife. And one of the things that I realized when I was there is that the woman pointed out to me, she's like, you know, you've like given your wife every reason in the world to like ditch you.

1:10:04Like you've almost dared her to leave you almost because you're afraid of doing this work, it seems like. And you have to recognize how strong she is to put up with the bullshit that she's put up with. and stick with it because she's so desperate to hold her own family together and that was like that's heavy fucking heavy and i was like i couldn't apologize enough and it was like game changer for us and listen there's obviously there's bumps in the road there's there's there's there's hiccups in every relationship we have you know arguments about petty bullshit now what it's in perspective now because usually i'm always the bad guy so now when she's out of line i can I'd be like, man, you're really being a jerk to me.

1:10:44And she's like, you're right, you're right, I'm sorry. But it's given us, I don't know, it's given us a breath of fresh air with regards to our personal relationship with each other and the way we deal with the children. It was earth shattering. Yeah, it's huge from a parenting perspective. This is something I talked about with Peter Atiyah when he was here as well, because I did a similar type experience in December and it was revelatory. And you realize the extent to which, despite your best efforts to not parent in the unhealthy ways in which you were parented when you're under stress or duress, you will default to doing those very things that you promised you would never do, right?

1:11:28And then you have the shame and the guilt. And when you go through this process and you wrestle with those demons and you really unearth all that fucking shit and you work through it, you understand that you have the power and the ability and the capacity to arrest that pattern that's probably been going on for generation after generation after generation. And you have the opportunity to tell a new story and to pass on to your kids through the way that you parent and mentor them a new way of being so that that pattern, which your whole life you've just thought, this is who I am because of who I came from stops here.

1:12:11Yep. And that's the greatest gift that you can give to your kids. And I don't care who you are, how successful you are, what kind of amazing healthy family you came from, we all have shit, man. We all have stuff that happened to us and that gets imprinted in our brains and shows up in behaviors that we wish we could stop perpetuating and yet find ourselves powerless to do so unless we really hit pause and go deep like you did. And I think it's massive that you made that investment, not just in yourself, but really in your family and in future generations yet to be born. Yeah. Because look, at the end of the day, I would die for my kids.

1:12:48And so if I was willing to die for these guys, the least I can do is put my own ego aside and be the best person that I know I can and need to be. And to your point, the guilt and the shame, the cycle of guilt and shame is like so powerful that I hadn't thought about it in those terms until I had done the work at Onsite and I was like holy shit I'm riddled with guilt and shame not just at the way I might behave day to day but like carrying that addiction journey with me and like the the the the pain that that caused me long term it's like prior to that happening I was like really happy positive dude I was like a good kid the principal at high school liked me all the teachers and I mean they still would but i didn't like i i liked myself and then after going through that i was like what a fucking loser you are how could you possibly do this like you're the you're as bad as anyone else junkie and getting over that has been has not been easy like getting off the drugs the physical the physical act of abusing drugs is one thing but getting over that the the damage that i did to my own ego and to my own personality is, has been very difficult.

1:14:00Cause in like, it's kind of like what I said when, when I was in Chicago and I was like, oh, these people know you. There's a part of me still that's like, man, these people really like me. I don't even fucking like myself some of the time, you know? And that's the part that I'm so grateful for. I'm like, man, I, it gives me pause. It makes me think like, man, you have to show yourself some compassion at times. and that's one of the things that I've struggled with the most is showing myself grace towards myself. I'm just so hard on myself internally. Peter Atiyah described it perfectly. If I fucking was late for something, I'd be like, you fucking idiot.

1:14:35How could you be late for this? Versus like, hey man, roll with it. It's just shit happens. Right. Because if that happened to, if the things that happened to me happened to someone else, I'd be like, dude, chill, man. Everyone makes a mistake. Don't even worry about it. I'd be the best cheerleader. Yeah, you would never treat another person in the way that you treat yourself, right? So you have this outward facing self-belief and confidence, but inward, a lot of that is being funneled through this self-deprecating loathsome, you know, perspective of who you are. And then of course, that gets channeled into your running, right?

1:15:12What is the relationship between your running and all of those wounds? Like if you feel like you're a piece of shit, how much of the suffering and the training and the racing is really about punishing yourself because you feel like you don't deserve good things or the only way that you can possibly contend with the guilt and the shame is to just create physical pain for yourself as almost like a hair shirt or like being just being fucking whipped by the priest or something like that, right? And then you can feel okay because you've done your penance. And I think the question that I asked you in the first podcast that I guess on some level, you know, kind of led to you going to this place, I'm not taking credit for that, but - No, no, it absolutely did.

1:16:02Maybe, you know, began to get you asking questions. The question, as I recall that I asked you was, who's Ken Rideout without running? If you woke up tomorrow and running's off the table, you couldn't do it anymore. You couldn't compete. you couldn't push yourself physically, who's Ken Wright out? And that led to an interesting discussion, but now I'm curious about how you would answer that now, having had the experience that you just had. It's funny, the first thing that comes to my mind is who's Ken Wright out? I would say like, I'm a dog. If it's not running, maybe it's nothing to do with physical.

1:16:38Maybe I'll start some kind of business that I'm incredibly passionate about. I just haven't found that opportunity yet, but I would channel all the same energy into something to be, you know, to show myself that I can like overachieve and like grind at something. Right. But what's beneath that? What's motivating that insane, you know, engine that you have to be the best or you have to overachieve? Is it insecurity? Is it fear? Is it a sense that if you don't do that, that you're a piece of shit or you're worthless? So like there's very laudable aspects of that trait. Yep. But there's also these darker kind of pieces here, right?

1:17:18That are unhealthy and you'll be successful. Everyone will tell you, you know, you did a great job, but then you go home and it's a shit show, right? Because the unhealthy pieces are the ones that are kind of dictating your behavior in a way that you wish weren't happening. Yeah. I don't mean to be like project or say that that's the case for you. That's an excellent question. And I think one that everyone can benefit from, if nothing else, the thought provoking nature is that that's a good point. Like my, one of my biggest fears in the world, and I've told my wife this from the day we met, I'm like, I'm so afraid of being mediocre at anything.

1:17:54Why? I don't know. Like it's, it's obviously it's, some of it is insecurity and self-consciousness, but I just. that's the great discomfort, right? Like you want to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation for you, go into something and say, I'm just going to be okay at this. I just want to finish. Yeah, I'm going to be - I'm just going to participate. And hold yourself back. Yeah. Just to like check your ego. That's harder. Then I'd be like the clown in this group. I'd be like, come on guys, let's have fun. If I'm not trying to win, I'm like trying to make it as enjoyable as possible. I don't know.

1:18:29It's like, maybe it's like the addict in me is like constantly needs that dopamine release either it's from trying to overachieve or from trying to have fun I don't know but that's definitely like something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about and you know I hate feeling like I have to perform for the attention or affection of others but there's certainly an element of that and I almost wonder like if other people that have had success at anything and again not to try to hold myself up on a pedestal like some professional athletes but i wonder if a guy like cam wharf feels that or des feels that thing of like you know what what's driving me to do this what like what what what would happen if i couldn't do this anymore i wonder how other people would answer that because i'm not sure but i know that the thought of just like being mediocre at anything is like scary to me i don't want to go through my whole life and be like yeah there's ken ronnie yeah he was there who else was there oh this guy was there we didn't really hear anything from but he was there i'm like what the hell man i you know but but maybe when i was running mongolia i see the people i was talking to one of the guys the swiss guy as we're running and i said man these guys are living out here on these fields herders we're in no man's land and i said dude i bet you that those guys are happier than us yeah i must love this otherwise they go do something else maybe they move to ulaanbaatar the city and you know open a hotel or something but they're out there and they just seemed completely happy so i often wonder like who's winning the guy who's just living content life in like you know farming uh coffee beans in hawaii or the guy who's making 20 million dollars working in finance in new york i can guarantee it's not the guy in new york that fucking job i'd rather be dead like no amount of money is worth that kind of like anxiety and stress and keeping up with the Joneses and like worrying about what suit you're wearing and watch you're wearing.

1:20:27It's just, that's my motivation in life to try to do something different. So I never have to go back to that. Yeah. But you got your foot in the business world in more than a small way, right? Like, what is the relationship between all of these mindset tools and your competitiveness? How do these things play off of each other? Like, what have you learned from your marathoning, your experience doing this ultra, your success as an athlete that spills over to business and vice versa? Yeah, no, good question. When I was, prior to getting into endurance sports, when I was just a salesman on a trading desk, you know, it was just constantly trying to be nice to guys that I didn't like, having them be like completely disrespectful to me all the time.

1:21:13And any sales guys and financial sales guys listening to this will relate. It's just a terrible, terrible existence. And, uh, you know, you have a few good relationships and you make a lot of money, but like your life or your, your financial security lives and dies with those relationships and it's stressful. But now when I've, when I've done some things that like have garnered attention and I've, I don't think it's just winning. I think it's also the way I've carried myself and the sincere humility that with which I feel after these events, I think it's been it's almost been attractive to people in the space so that people who are into running so now I've been you know for the last five years roughly I've worked as a placement agent so I'll help brands like Roka for instance I didn't work with them or Rhone the apparel company like again I didn't work with them but those are the kind of brands I might work with them to help them raise like a series a or series b and I have institutional investor relationships and coincidentally the best relationships I have with some of these guys are the people that are into running.

1:22:18And I have some excellent relationships with people that I genuinely like really enjoy being around. Like the nice thing about doing this freelance work is with someone that I don't like, unlike my previous life, I don't have to deal with them. Moving on, there's too many like, there's too many other opportunities to focus on negativity. And as a result, I've kind of surrounded myself with like-minded people that are all into the same thing. So, and, and I've been very lucky that I worked on a few deals that worked early on. One of them was a company called PowerDot that was acquired by Therabody.

1:22:53I invested in that early in a convertible note and I put a bunch of buddies into it. And with a convertible note, if the company gets acquired before the note converts to equity, you get paid a multiple of the money. And within six months of the investment, it got acquired. So as a result, we all got a multiple on our money and all the guys involved were like, what's next? So now I only work on deals that I invest in. And when I do invest and I bring it to like this, my little network of high net worth individuals, family offices, or even some institutions there, you know, they're like, are you investing?

1:23:24Cool, okay, we're at least in, but we'll decide the amount, send us all the materials, we'll do the diligence. And it's like, I've been super lucky that I've created this. I say to my wife all the time, I'm like, can you believe that I've been able to do this? I don't have a job, I don't work. This is unbelievable because I like doing this. It's completely different than the trading desk environment and that like kind of hardcore banking where it's more like this is very much based on relationships. And it's been wonderful. Like brands reach out if I think that it's something I would invest in and I can do.

1:23:56Usually it gets done. I've had very few failures in that space. And luckily because I've picked them strategically. specifically and uh but yeah so so so the the running has complemented it really well because most of the brands that i would work with are in kind of like human performance or um health and wellness space like no one's coming for me no one's asking me to help them raise a software as a service business i just it's not my wheelhouse i don't do tech i'm just that's way above my uh right intellectual pay grade you're when i look at you i see a people guy you're a relationships guy to your point, and you're somebody who innately understands people, I think the word like networking or networker is a terrible pejorative, but like, I think that you, like you're on the phone, you're talking to people all the time, you know what people want, you know what people need, you make sure that people's needs are met.

1:24:51You're one of those guys who's got a guy for everything. If I needed something, like I need this, I'll call can he's like i got a guy need a guy need some money tell me what you need you got the guy right of course um how do you become the guy who's always got a guy that's a good question and i've talked about this the last i was on here about networking if you think you're networking strike one they know this isn't like something that you consciously do it's the way you live your life and please for the love of jesus last time i was on here i said i hate linkedin i don't understand why people send LinkedIn to strangers without even an explanation like, hey, here's why I want to connect with you.

1:25:27I go through this whole rant the last time. I get home, I am not shitting you. I had like 200 or 300 LinkedIn requests. Please, if you don't tell me why you want to connect, why would I want to have an anonymous connection? Did you reply to every one of them telling them why you weren't going to accept them? No, I'm sorry. If you don't get a yes from me immediately, I see them all. If I hit ignore, it's because there's no explanation. And what good is it to say I'm connected to Ken if we don't know each other? And if someone asked me, do you know Steve Smith? No, I don't know that guy. Well, you're connected to him on LinkedIn.

1:25:56How do you slip through the cracks? Goodbye. But yeah, but to your point, it's like, I used to, I said to Rob more, maybe about a year or two ago, I said, you know, I think that one of my biggest, one of my best, almost marketable skills is being interesting. He said, no, I disagree. I think that you're not as interesting as you are interested. You are really interested in people Like when, you know, he's like, I've been with you a million times where someone's like talks to us and you ask them a million questions about what they're doing, but it's not conscious. But I am interested. Like I'm interested in what people have to say and what they have to do.

1:26:35But it's one extreme or the other. Like Rob was telling me when we were running this morning, he was like, yes, so-and-so was asking like, so what's the deal with Ken? And he said, that's a transparent guy. Like what you see is what you get. And if he doesn't like you, unfortunately he doesn't do a good job of hiding it. and I think that that's the truth is like people either love me or hate me and I'm aware of that I don't want people to hate me but at the same time if you hate me it's probably because I hate you I don't hide that and I don't like something about someone and I I have a hard time like hiding contempt and that's a fault of my own because I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings I want to be kind to everyone I really do but there's some people that you're just not gonna alike and i know that when you have a big personality which i can at times that it sometimes is off-putting to others i i don't i certainly don't want people to dislike me but i understand that that's i'm not for everyone but more people than not i think kind of see through that and recognize that the people who are my friends i'll help them do anything if i have a hundred dollars and you need 90 like cool we'll figure out a way to get the 90 back but here it is and that's I hope and think that most of my friends would agree with that assessment that that's how I feel towards them the people that are in my life I I like I said earlier I'm a product of the people I'm around I'm so grateful for the friendships I've had that I have right now like when I was working in finance I was like an empty vessel which is why I turned to drugs I I couldn't fill this void of emptiness that I had and the people that I was working with not all of them there was some beautiful people, but there were a lot of complete assholes.

1:28:14And I just, I wasn't good in that environment. It was like, I was like a tree that didn't, like a palm tree trying to grow in fucking Staten Island. It sucked. It was miserable. I didn't really fit in with everyone there. I just for better or worse. And now, like I said, if someone's doesn't jive with me or doesn't fit with my beliefs, I don't have to deal with them. And I say to my wife all the time, I've never been in a position in my life ever where I've had less conflict with people. I never have conflict with people ever. Like on a working basis, you know, you might have words with someone off the cuff in the subway or something, which my wife would be like, why do you have words with someone in the subway?

1:28:58I'm like, ah, sometimes I just can't let shit go when I see wrongs. I got to speak up. Yeah. Like you chiming in and comment threads on Instagram too. I try not to. I hope that's improved since the last time we talked. Yeah, I very rarely respond to negative comments anymore. Yeah. When I look at your life, I see someone who's living a pretty aspirational life. Like you get to do what you want. You get to make money in the way that you want. You get to pursue your athletic adventures and distinguish yourself in that world. You get to be a parent to these kids that you love. So I would imagine people wanna know or come up to you and ask, Like, how do I craft or cultivate this type of life?

1:29:44Like, do I follow my passion? Do I do the right thing, et cetera? And when I reflect on my own life, I can't help but think about the role that pain has played in getting me to change or getting me to kind of wake up to, you know, ways that aren't serving me and kind of compelling me because I was so fucking backed into a corner to finally pay attention and start to kind of make some shifts or whatever that have led me to this place. So how do you think about the role that suffering and pain has played in helping you get to where you're at? And is it possible to arrive at a place like that without having to weather all the suffering?

1:30:27Yeah. Well, for starters, I'd say you're talking to someone who was like suicidal for several years, struggling with addiction, waking up every day, getting high 24-7. first thing in the morning as soon as I get out of bed taking opioids because I couldn't get I couldn't take a shower until I was like got some relief from the pain and like the physical withdrawals and when you are in that level of despair and keep in mind I was able to function and continue to like live a productive on the surface life but I was like destroying myself like emotionally and to come out of that thing like I was thinking about this on the flight out here I was like man I'm so grateful that I don't have to depend on drugs that I'm sober it's just Like it's a dream come true.

1:31:08And I think that that level of gratitude has served me. But the other thing I'd say is when I, so I was working in finance, just getting by. I mean, we were like, I married my wife, best decision I ever made. We had beautiful children. That part is all like within everyone's grasp. Finding the right partner is like so critical. I can't stress it enough. If I, there are things that my wife and I disagree about, but the one thing that I knew for sure was that this is the person I want to be the mother of my children. And maybe subconsciously in a Freudian way, I wanted her to be my own mother, but we don't have that kind of relationship.

1:31:45But I often think of that where she is like the, like she's the mom of our house. Like she cares for all of us, but we have very distinct roles. Like I deal with all the finances and all the like tip we have the most traditional like old school relationship like dad does the dad stuff mom does the mom stuff um and it works for us it doesn't necessarily mean it has to work for everyone but i would say that when so when i when i got sober we have four kids i'm living in new york i'm commuting from westchester and i was like this is a losing proposition man i i can't keep living like this i'm driving an hour in the morning two hours sometimes at night to get home i'm making just enough money to be comfortable but i'm not rich i don't i don't have anything extravagant we had a nice house but not like a not a friggin house that you'd pull up and be like holy shit what's this guy do it was like a house and um i was just like i don't want to do this anymore and and but now i have huge responsibilities we sold our house moved to the palisades most expensive place on earth probably i mean it was so crazy expensive we rented a house and i don't want to make it about money but just to give context for people like i was far from rich and we rented the only house we could find that could accommodate us$12 ,000 a month.

1:32:59I was like, dude, I have a runway now and that runway is short and I got to figure this out. I'm working at a tech startup that I didn't think would succeed, but I had blind faith that I would figure this shit out. And I don't know why. When I say I didn't sleep for six months, like, dude, I didn't sleep. I was like constantly panicking, like having panic attacks of like, but I'm going to figure it out. I don't know how. and long story short, I convinced my friend, Jack McDowell, who ran the Palisades Group, an asset management firm in LA. They didn't really have marketing. He wasn't really growing the business.

1:33:35And I convinced him to hire me to run business development. He had like 2 billion in assets under management, but it was all like separately managed accounts. So it wasn't like a$2 billion hedge fund with two and 20 fees. And, uh, he was like, you don't really have experience and i basically said i'll do it for free i'll work for free now no health insurance no nothing that you talk about putting your freaking balls on the line and he let me do it and in a few weeks it was obvious it worked two years later he had five billion in assets and we had three different discretionary funds like real head like hedge fund style funds that paid real fees and it was like like the goby race i was like i did this holy shit i can't believe i did this but it was literally like i'm just gonna figure it out and for whatever reason like that the stars just aligned and the universe just was like this guy believes in himself we're gonna reward him like i i always have a hard time accepting accepting the fact that i did something i always think like oh i got so lucky there it lined up perfectly and i was in the right place at the right time versus i made that happen but i also think that that humility and that not getting overconfident prevents you from getting out over your skis and doing something stupid, which you could argue that that might've been a stupid decision had I gone bankrupt and like embarrassed my whole family.

1:34:56But instead we've, I righted the ship. We started to like have, you know, create a little bit of comfort for ourselves, at least that I wasn't like I could sleep. And, um, you know, when COVID kicked in, the kids got sent home from school and it was just too much for little kids on iPads. And, um, my wife went to Vanderbilt and she's like, let's move to Nashville now that you're working from home because my boss at the time my partner Jack was like you can do this for yourself and work for yourself and I'll keep you on as a consultant and give you a year of runway and I was like dude I don't think I can do this who's gonna hire me to raise money for them and he was like dude this guy was like this guy Jack McDowell was like my fucking guardian angel he believed in me more than I ever believed in myself he's one of my best friends I love this guy he was like you can do this and I was like dude I can't he's like i'm gonna pay you x a month for the next year and i was like that's more than enough and he's but i had raised like a discretionary fund so he's like instead of me paying you a bonus and a salary i'm gonna give you this monthly retainer go do your thing and when we raise the next fund you come and raise it for us as a consultant and i did and the first mandate i raised money for was david sinclair's uh life bioscience in boston and uh i'm working from home covid started i've always said to my wife imagine if we could make like new york la finance money but live in like austin or nashville and she was like let's do it so i couldn't bring i love living here i was driving here thinking i fucking love malibu running biking but no one else had that connection in my family they were like they liked it here but they weren't like i'm in heaven so she was like let's go to nashville i said i can't bring myself to do it you go find a house that you like if you find it buy it and i'll move there so i saw the house the first time when we pulled up and moved in yeah you know i think you told me that last time that's unbelievable that's an unbelievable story um but the point i wanted to make is when you're and it sounds cliche again i know but if you're waiting for everything to line up like as soon as everything's lined up i'm gonna start my business or i'm gonna move to um puerto rico and take advantage of the tax shelter but if you're waiting for the time to be right fucking stop wasting your time right it's never i'll have kids when everything is sort of set yeah right like does i have five million i'm doing this nah do it now that that day never comes never and you know to the people who would look and say like i want that i wish that there was a formula or an easy answer i could say do this this this because people ask me all the time i'm like brother i don't have the answer for you but all i can tell you is you have to believe in yourself to the point where you're like willing to die to win i will win this race or i will die trying it's funny after the second stage of that goby race i haven't shared this with anyone the video but i sat down and made a video of myself where i'm like my elbows bleeding and i like just because i wanted to remember how i felt and i'm basically talking to the camera and i'm like i'm fucking destroyed and i like literally start getting emotional i'm like i don't know how the fuck i'm gonna keep doing this i i can't bear the thought of running 24 miles i haven't i am destroyed i'm i'm a mess i'm bleeding i'm like i don't know what I'm doing here, I don't know what I'm gonna do.

1:38:05And like, I start to get choked up. And I'm like, I just wanted to make it, like I said, for my wife, for myself and to show my wife, like what I was experiencing in the moment without being dramatic. And it was like, I think it's pretty moving. Yeah, that's wild. You know, I think belief in yourself, yes, but also this reflex to action, right? This idea of execution, not waiting until everything's lined up before you take that action or not sitting on your ass until you have the whole roadmap of how you're gonna get from point A to point Z. Like anybody who's successful has to begin and you start to just move forward.

1:38:46And it's like stuff shows up right in your like immediate view only at the last minute when you need it to show up in order for you to take one more step. and that's how everything gets done and gets made and you got to develop a capacity or a comfort level with that level of uncertainty the biggest thing of all that is like aside from believing in yourself and all this stuff is like you can't be afraid to fail like fear is the worst and i say it all the time and like teddy alice talks about this and he learned this from customato and it's like you know it's a well-known expression but the coward and the hero feel the same exact emotion when confronted with a situation it's just how do you act in response to the fear the hero is like okay i see you i know you're there here's how i'm gonna handle this the coward is like i fuck this run or or or ignore so you can be afraid to fail it's just what are the actions that you're taking in the face of that you can be fearful you can't be afraid because you will fail Like if you try to do epic shit, you're going to fail.

1:39:54It's, I mean, the frigging road to success is littered with failures. Like anyone who's been super successful has had failures along the way. It's impossible to like do epic shit and not have failures. I mean, the best athletes in the world, Kipchoge went to win the Boston Marathon. He got beat. It was the last one he hadn't won. If you told me Kipchoge was going to get beat at something, I'd be like, I got 10 ,000 that Kipchoge wins, even money. and he lost. But that's, it's like the expression, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? That's the motivation to try these things like these other endurance races where I'm like, oh my God, I'm so scared.

1:40:33I'm afraid to even mention that I might do it, which is part of the reason why I mentioned them. Cause now I'm like, I know people are going to be like, when are you doing that? Right. That's the obvious question. You know, is a pilot light lit now and you're going to go off and do all these ultras. And I think that there's something really cool and amazing and interesting for you to explore in that world and i think it's such a beautiful community it's very different from the marathoning community um and i think you'll really enjoy uh you know everything that that has to offer at the same time it's like are you running towards something or are you running away from something yeah i think i could probably make an argument for both.

1:41:12Although I would say knowing what I know now, I'd say I'm running away from things less than I've ever been. I'm like aware of the challenges that I'm facing emotionally and spiritually. And just to put a name on it, like what are those challenges? I think a lot of it is insecurity and like just being aware of like how much of this is performative what am i doing for like the accolades and affection and attention of others versus like a sincere desire to like explore what i can and can't do and and i do think that again not to sound cliche i do think that there's a huge element of that that i do just that's kind of my personality is like what else can i do like i i've had i like doing this i like saying like i don't know uh free diving i don't have any interest in free diving but how far could i free dive oh that seems real scary what if you can't get a deep breath and you get stuck down there can you die hmm man that might be interesting to try scares the shit out of me but like those are the kind of things where i'm like hmm what else can i try that would be scary and not because i don't want to fail but i do want to like i kind of explore those things in a healthy way but i also want to be sure that it's like i want to be very conscious of what is the motivation there Yeah.

1:42:33It's tough too, because it's not one or the other. You can have that, but also like, I'm restless at home. I don't know, it doesn't feel right. Like, oh, I'll sign up for a race. I'll sign up for an adventure. And it's like, that's when you're running away. You're just like putting the blinders up because you don't want to deal with whatever is making you uncomfortable about sitting still in your own home. yeah that could be it there was um i will say i got a lot out of the element with the gobi race of like the planning and like the strategic thought about food and supplements and like which supplements do i bring i take a lot of supplements primarily from momentous but i was like which of these supplements are so necessary that i'm willing to carry them for six days what made the what made the cut yeah good question i um i took a daily multivitamin and two fish oils daily from momentous and i took um athletic greens i took momentous recovery powder which i was like man i don't know if i should carry this recovery powder i should just abandon this and eat the food and go straight food the freeze-dried stuff but in the end i was so glad i had the recovery stuff because i don't know about you but after a huge race like a marathon or an epic, like a long, hard effort.

1:43:52I don't have an appetite for like five hours sometimes. So to force the recovery powder down every day was like, thank God I brought this because it got calories in right away. And then I just forced myself to eat the calories throughout the day. That was the only part that was tolerable. I was hungry a lot, but I was also like so deep in the pain cave that I was like, I can only tolerate so much food. So it made that calorie deficit like a little bit more palatable. you know the rest day sucked because i was just like i could have eaten like you know friggin half a cow i was just like so hungry it for and so hungry for like fruits and vegetables because i was like dude all i've been eating is this freeze-dried crap like i just we'd spawn something like with like substance or like some real vitamins and minerals and nutrients not all this sodium and like processed shit yeah do they do it differently at at like marathon to sob where they have these big camps set up at the end of the stage.

1:44:51And I think, do they feed you dinner there or do you have to bring your own food? The difference in Marathon de Sabe is they just provide a roof, like a shelter. You're sleeping on the sand from what I understand. But there isn't some kind of big barbecue waiting for you when you finish the stage. Not only that, they don't boil the water for you. I'll give you guys some pictures and videos that shows what the camp setup looked like. There was just some big, almost like barbecue grills with kettles on them where they would boil the water. And then there was like just a pile of bottled water sitting in the desert.

1:45:21So I was like, my wife was like, well, at least they gave you cold water. I'm like, cold water? The water was like an inferno. I was like, one was boiling and one was hot. But they would boil the water and you'd pour it into the freeze dried food. In Marathon de Sabe, I think you have to actually carry the little like, little stove thing that you could boil your own water. But a lot of those meals you can pour, the water doesn't have to be boiling. And so you're so hungry and like, on queer street that you like fucking cold water warm water it didn't matter um and i think that and i also think marathon de sab is like majority is like over sand like really loose sand just seems so much harder people like oh you're gonna do marathon de sab i'm like you couldn't pay me 100 grand to do that race i've like i've been there done that i don't want to sleep in the sand the next one i'll have no sand involved the funny thing is the guy who planned out the course um spanish guy is like listen i got a great race in namibia it's the same exact thing as this but we sleep in hotels and eat great meals every day i'm like oh now you got my attention um what is the supplement routine when you're at home um in the morning i'll take like most mornings i'll take tyrosine and most of this is like part of the huberman protocol i'll take tyrosine uh like an alpha gpc for focus if it's a work day i don't take it on the weekends and I'll take NMN.

1:46:41After workout, I take the Momentus recovery shake, scoop of athletic greens, creatine, a multivitamin, two fish oils, zinc and vitamin D and some carnitil. And then at night, I'll take the sleep pack from Momentus that has like theanine, magnesium. Yep. Yeah. And apigenin? Yeah, exactly. The other one? Yeah. I get crazy dreams when I take that. dude i'm a junkie when i go to sleep and i have crazy dreams i'm like this is like a dream this is like a dream come true even a nightmare i'm like i'm sober uh-huh when you're in that kind of dependence every time you wake up you're reminded of like you ain't going anywhere without those drugs did you you're going on vacation for a week do you have 55 percocets ready to go to get through the week now i've only got 40 okay so the last two days you're going to be in withdrawals and make it miserable for everyone that puts it into perspective yeah so when you have like think about those things like i'm overwhelmed with gratitude and just full of positive vibes you're 52 yeah 52 yeah so how are you thinking about the next couple years where do you see yourself in three years five years how are you staying on top of your fitness and and all of that i i don't feel old like i don't treat myself like an old man sometimes i see like gray hair in my on my head especially on my beard and i'm like fuck i'm old yeah and it's it panics me i don't like it and uh i know dude it's i don't i don't part of me doesn't like having the beer because it's super white i feel like i'm 100 years old but my wife likes it yeah i'm like all right i'll do it yeah same but like you know i just can't do it i'm way too insecure and vain i feel like oh my god i look so old but do you do you feel like this sometimes you look in the mirror and you're like wow i look old I don't feel any different than I ever have in my whole life like I don't feel different than when I I mean I feel emotionally a lot more mature but from a physical standpoint I think it's maybe the soreness becomes so gradual that it just like the only thing that's massively noticeable is the eyesight like I can't see my phone without reading glasses at 45 and it just got a little bit worse every year which is depressing but I don't feel like I don't feel like I'm deteriorating at all and i don't know if it's because i've just stayed active and stayed busy and just refused to give into that or if maybe i'm lucky like from a genetic standpoint that i've been able to adjust but i was talking to teo the other day because i had my lp little a and apob levels tested and they were super high like panic level high and i'm like too this is causing me massive anxiety because i'm like oh my god i don't even think there's a way to lower these because it's all genetic i I don't eat an unhealthy diet.

1:49:26I very rarely, if ever, eat meat, you know, primarily fish. And so to think that I have this, it was like, man, the day I got that diagnosis, my wife's like, what's up? I was like, I was like in a bad place. And I was like, I'm going out to run. It's scary. That's really scary. I literally was like, you know. How long ago was that? Two months. I said to my wife, like, I'm going to have a heart attack. I think I'm going to die now. Like, this is crazy. How is this happening? I went out that day and ran like the hardest interval run ever. And she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I refuse to give into this.

1:50:00Like if I'm going to, if this is going to happen, let's do it now. I was just so depressed. So now I've been like trying to cope with it and figure out like, what am I going to do? And so I'm starting to like formulate a plan and figure out, do I take a stat and what do I do? It's causing me nuts. I got a couple of people for you to talk to. Definitely. Including Rob Moore. Yeah, yeah. Rob and Andrew have been massively helpful. Yeah, you don't wanna fuck around with that. And it's that thing where it doesn't matter how fast you run sometimes like in TO's case, like who would have thought, right?

1:50:32I think there are certain lifestyle things that you could tweak that could help that. And whether or not you need a statin, you need to explore that and figure that out quickly. But it's, yeah, that's when you're really kind of confronted with your own mortality and it goes back to control. Is this something you can control or not? Which is a scary thing. yeah and it's not something that's easily controllable and that's what's been hard to deal with it's like man what am i gonna do but i'm gonna formulate a plan i'm definitely gonna take you up on talking to anyone who's willing to talk to me so yeah the cardiologist when he was talking he's like yeah we'll get you on a stat and i was like nah i'm not taking a stat and he's like why i'm like i just haven't heard good things about him i don't know why i was just emotional and i was like i'm take my chances so when he sent me the report he's like I told patient of risks, patient responded, I'll take my chances.

1:51:20Oh, that went in his notes? Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's covering his ass. Oh, of course, of course. Yeah. That's all right. You might want to rethink that. Yeah, no, I definitely do. It was just when I heard it, I was like, I'm not at that level. Like I'm not on stat and would be crazy. But I think you're a good case study for use it or lose it. Like you feel the way that you feel because you continually apply pressure, right? So you feel like you're 30 because you've been training in a certain way for a very long period of time and you've been able to kind of maintain, whereas most people drop off and they're rebuilding and they're rubber banding.

1:51:57And I'm in the middle of that type of experience because of this lower back problem that I've had. Like when I was, you know, when I did, how was I, 51 when I did Otilla? Yeah, I felt fucking great. And now I've had this back issue, which has forced me to be more sedentary and to not express myself physically in the way that I choose and like in order to just feel like who I am. And now I'm finally on this path of healing and I'm seeing results. And now I can move, not like, I'm not out killing it or anything like that, but I can kind of get out there and, you know, ride my bike and go to the pool for the first time in a long time, man.

1:52:34And I'm like, oh my God, this is what it feels like to be me. Like, I'm so grateful, like you take this for granted and it gets taken away from you for a little bit. And they're just simple things. They're not like material things. They're just like, I need to do these things for my mental health, for my physical health, and just to like feel like I'm myself and to be able to reconnect with that now and see a path forward. It's like, I feel so fucking good. And I feel I had forgotten what it feels like to... What a lot of people don't realize and they should is that a rich man has a million problems and a sick man has one.

1:53:10i after i came back from chicago on sunday morning came home hung out with the kids had dinner sunday night didn't eat anything offensive i don't even remember like something vegetable salad same thing my kids ate sunday night dude i woke up i had like a stomach bug or food poison and i threw up for like 24 straight hours it like it was so bad i was like almost like begging to like just god please put me out of my misery take me out i can't do this my head was in a vice grip i couldn't stop throwing up and all i could think was like i'd give up everything in my life to be healthy i just it was i i literally was like am i gonna die like this is unbelievable i can't move i'm frozen on the bathroom floor i can't stop throwing up and that was like such a reminder of like dude slow down i think my body was just like yeah enough cut the bullshit go be desert then go to chicago run a beer mile flying around almost like just ignoring common sense tactics of like dude you I need to give your body a rest.

1:54:07So I took like three days off from running. It's first time in like a long time that I've had multiple days in a row off. Wow. When you think back on the habits and the routines that have contributed to your success beyond, we talked about the supplements, we talked about the 10 miles a day, what are some other things that you build into your daily regimen that you think have been important in moving the needle? Definitely number one performance enhancer, sleep. I go out of my way to get proper sleep. That doesn't always happen, but like, I don't really drink. I mean, I've never been a drinker, like my recovery never involved like, oh my god, I can't have a drink.

1:54:50So like, if I might have a drink every couple of weeks, but that's not my thing. So but I also think alcohol like wreaks havoc on your sleep, and just your whole recovery. so I don't really do any of I don't partake in things that I used to partake in so I really emphasize sleeping and I also emphasize consistency like I keep it moving and people it's funny I always get so many like um internet coaches that are like hey let me tell you how you should be doing this I'm like what the fuck about me tells you I need help like this works for me I maybe I could be better if I had recovery built in but it isn't all about performance some of it is just about mental health.

1:55:30Like I, I, I feel like I emotionally, I need to just move my body in the morning. It gets endorphins fired. It is what it is. It's like my blessing and my curse. But, um, so when people offer that advice, I'm always like a little taken aback. Like, I don't want to be rude to them, but I'm like, dude, fucking worry about yourself. Um, are you still working with Mario? Oh yeah. Yeah. Mario's like, he knows, he knows the drill, but you know, if we're not in, if we're not getting ready for a marathon, on. He doesn't send me daily training every day. He's just 10, 12 weeks out. He puts together very specific and I follow it blindly.

1:56:04But, um, I think that the consistency of training, the point I was going to make is so, so if I'm feeling destroyed and run down, so I'll just run really easy. And that works for me. I like come back, feel refreshed. The next day I might feel stronger. If I don't, I continue to run easy. I never, unless we're in that 12 week session and then And I just follow the plan. And on the easy days, you have to run easy. You physically can't do track workouts, followed by hard long runs and not feel run down. So my easy days are just 10 miles super easy. And I know that for a lot of people, they'd be like, that's crazy, you shouldn't do that.

1:56:40And maybe not, but that's the system that I use. And what about the gym routine? Yeah, so three or four nights a week, I lift weights. I try to mix it up all the time. Like a shitload of pull-ups, push-ups and sit-ups are the staples. and I'll do some bench pressing, kettlebells. I just try to keep it interesting all the time and do some squats, leg work.

1:57:29hamstring stuff, like kind of like a hybrid athlete or hybrid training helped me a lot just with everything like resilience in general like the ability to go every day like I know what it's like to train every single day so to do that and just dig deep for five or six days six days seven days six stages was okay it was longer but if it's long for me it's long for them that's what I kept telling myself is like I'm suffering but guess what so are they yeah um the last thing I wanted to ask you I put it out on the internet like hey ken's coming in what should we ask him and got a bunch of questions uh but there was one that i wanted to kind of end the conversation with which is uh somebody said what would ken say to to you know someone like myself who's just lazy i can't i just can't i can't get i can't get off the couch i can't i can't get myself into that gear i would say exercise like your life depends on it because it does and if you're lazy like hey do your thing right that's i you can't it's like what would you tell someone who's addicted to drugs and deep in the throes of addiction i'd say when he's ready to get healthy he'll get healthy but you can't tell someone to get healthy you can't tell someone to get get sober you know this i mean that's why they have interventions and then they usually don't work they don't work yeah because Because you can't will somebody into willingness.

1:58:53Right. Honestly, if this person was talking to me and said, dude, I just don't feel it, I'd be like, brother, then don't do it for yourself. Do it for your wife. Do it for your children. Have some pride in yourself. Like dig deep, man. You don't have to run marathons, but like you can't fucking walk for 30 minutes a day. You can't do 20 pushups. Those little things become contagious. It becomes like a snowball rolling down a mountain. It will gain momentum. but it's just like straight physics a body in motion will tend to stay in motion and a body at rest will tend to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force you you're in control of this like you only have one life why would you this is the only thing you're in control of is your body why would you squander and neglect the fucking greatest gift you could ever receive like look at what i look at what people have been able to do with their bodies even myself like to go to the desert and put myself through this like i can't believe my body did this and uh what else can it do and it's awesome and i would say like don't cut that's that's get over that that's a fucking poisonous mindset yeah being lazy is like yeah i'm been lazy i don't want to work well you ain't gonna fucking eat because you ain't gonna get paid like it's also a story yeah that gets reinforced every time you tell yourself that you're lazy.

2:00:14That's right. Right? So, do you have the capacity, the power to tell a different story? And that different story begins with taking one step. And to your point about an object in motion stays in motion, at least do enough for as long enough that you create momentum. Yep. Because there is a physical law with momentum, but there's also like, it's like the force. There's like a spiritual power to it. Why is it when you're on a roll and you have momentum that it's just easier to keep going? And when you have that intervening event that throws you off your game and you get interrupted, it's so fucking hard to get back.

2:00:54So when you have that momentum, you gotta protect that, like your life depends on it. Yeah. Because if you can continue that momentum, you're on a roll like you can you can literally just ride it out into a completely changed experience of your life that's right and but it starts with the first step so first of all like i said earlier it's the reality doesn't matter what are you telling yourself people might think i'm crazy i'm telling myself i'm definitely winning there's another part of me saying like you're gonna get killed but the voice do you override that do you consciously say okay i'm going to tell myself I'm winning because I'm trying to mute out that other voice?

2:01:34Are those things that were with each other? I can literally see them debating each other. Like I have the thought of like, oh my God, we're going to fucking, when the guy passed me for third, I was like, oh my God, we're going to think we're going to be fucking happy to get in the top five. And then I hear myself talking to myself like, dude, cut the fucking shit. This is one day. Tomorrow we're going to bounce back and we're going to get these guys. Next time we'll sit on them. We'll do this a little different we're gonna try this and it's this that voice only needs to be one percent louder 51 to 49 the alpha voice wins and like i said the reality doesn't matter only the only the story you're telling yourself matters and i'm i'm hyper aware of that when i'm in the moment and uh but it doesn't make it any easier i have a normal person i have all the same concerns and like insecurities as everyone i'm like please god don't let me embarrass myself so many people are watch and I'm such a fucking big mouth.

2:02:25I told everyone I was doing this, but I think part of it is like creating this accountability exercise for myself because I've mentioned anything on here, for instance, I know everyone's going to ask me about it. And now I've backed myself into a corner and I'm like, all right, maybe I'll lose, but I can't be afraid to fail because I'm going to try and just not trying is not an option. Right. And, uh, stay off of LinkedIn. Please don't send me a LinkedIn request. Your incoming LinkedIn messages. LinkedIn incoming. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, man. You're such an inspiration and I always get so much out of everything that you have to share.

2:03:06And I think what you're out doing, leading the way as an example of what's possible for people in our age bracket is super cool. And I think when I think about masters athletes like this is a new thing like when we were kids there weren't people in their 50s out you know it's like exactly so when you're breaking records you're like yeah that's great but in you know my estimation in 100 years from now like whatever records are standing right now are going to get eclipsed 100 fold because we are not we but like i think people are exploring human capacity at older ages for the very first time no but i think it is we i think you're like a thought leader in this space like 100 % like I'm so incredibly proud of you I freaking love you I love the people in this community I love the people that I'm friends with I'm like I said before I'm overwhelmed with gratitude the fact that you want to hear what I have to say is like doesn't even seem real to me at times I was such a fan for so long and I just was just working tirelessly in the dark in the cold just doing my thing and eventually it was like holy shit this is unique well everyone's not doing this literally i'm like i'm shocked this is i but i guess they're not yeah well every year there's fewer right exactly exactly but this i would say endurance sports has given me the greatest gifts in my life like i said it's helped me carve out a a world in which i don't have to answer to anyone else i'm responsible for myself anytime i've been in a position to eat what i kill essentially like live on your own like you don't make any money you don't get paid like you don't do deals you don't get paid cool I like that I know that I'm terrible at processes like when I worked at the Palisades and Jack is my friend Jack it would drive him crazy because he's a banker he's like an MBA CFA uh Excel wizard like this is a friggin intellect math major type I would take no notes I had no systems I just had relationships and he would tell me what needs to get done and I would get it done and he would literally be like I fucking hate the fact that you are able to do things the way you do them because it doesn't make sense it shouldn't work there's you have no accountability you have no records of anything and I'm like I know I'm terrible as an employee that's why now I'm unemployable but if you tell me what needs to get done at what date I will live and die with that success if I don't get done don't pay me but if I do get done I'll take a zero or if like you're gonna pay me a hundred if I do it, pay me zero if it doesn't get done, pay me 200 if I do it.

2:05:40Most people are like, you know what? I'll do that. And I'm like, cool. I don't know that I'm going to be able to do it, but I'm going to now the pressure's on, I'm going to do it. So that was part of the struggle of working in finance and then working at an asset management, like asset management, hedge fund, private equity. Those guys are fucking intellectual. They are dialed. If you go into a proper private equity of real venture fund like an elk catered in my buddy michael forello shout out those guys they are pros and i am not the best fit in that environment because my processes suck i know it but if you tell me you need something done i know and the people that know me know it's getting done and i just the way i get it done sucks you know it's like the goby desert i don't know how i'm gonna do it but i'm getting over that finish line first right endurance so to wrap up endurance in sports as teacher, as a spiritual guide, self-reliance, integrity, being true to your word, developing the capacity for resilience, the reflex towards action, fear of failure versus, how did you distinguish it?

2:06:55Fear of failure versus being afraid, right? How do we distinguish between those two things? You can be fearful, but you can't be afraid. Yeah. So much good stuff, man. Well, I will just say that I'm so grateful. I'm so happy that for the opportunity to be here. And yeah, I hope that people get something out of this. And if I can be of service to anyone, i'm very easy to find and very easy to reach even for the haters um especially on linkedin on strivers on strava sometimes someone would be like after the bear mile someone wrote a comment tagged their friend and said you know joe blow you gotta take this guy down that kind of comment i can't ignore i'm like motherfucker you know where to find me i'm the easiest person in the world to find me find anyone can get it i'm not hiding from anyone and it's like why would you even respond i'm like i don't know i feel like they poked me and now i've got to respond yeah Yeah, you might want to work on that.

2:07:52You got to bring your ApoB down. That might be one of the ways to do it. The one thing I will say in closing is my friend Jelly Roll taught me an awesome lesson. And if you don't know who Jelly Roll is, he's the fucking nicest guy in the world. Country music star, former rapper, former convict. Just incredible inspiration. He said to me one time, I was telling him someone left a shitty comment on my Instagram. And he's like, Ken, your Instagram that you're referring to, we're looking at it together. he's like there's like 300 positive comments here and one asshole said something shitty to you he's like do you know how disrespectful and insulting it is to the people that left you nice comments that you're going to only respond to the fucking asshole and i was like it like hit me like a ton of bricks i'm like you're right why wouldn't i take time to be like write a personal thank you to everyone who took the time to say something nice to me and it was a incredibly valuable lesson of just like i still struggle with it but it doesn't but it helped put things into perspective because I was like, yeah, man.

2:08:51And I also would say, imagine if I was saying to Rich, you got to see what I did on. I went on slow twitch or let's run. Then I trolled the shit out of some pro athlete. I talked so much shit about him. I accused him of horrible things, unfounded. And I said all nasty shit about him. You'd be like, why? Just because I think that he's an asshole. Why is that? I don't know. I don't even know the guy. You'd be like, are you a fucking loser what productive person has time to be disrespectful and negative towards another man who's out there doing shit in the man in the arena like worry about yourself so i've tried to do a better job of tuning out the like negativity although there's not a lot of it but there is some and i'm always like taken aback because i'm like why would someone dislike me i've never done anything bad to anyone anyway that's great advice it is amazing when you think of it in that context because these people who took time out to say something nice, you're ignoring them.

2:09:44Yep. And you're giving all your attention to somebody who just said something nasty and that person is getting exactly what they want, which is your attention. Which is crazy. Can you imagine being the person? That's my point. Imagine being the person who's like, I talked shit about someone and they responded to me like, what a loser. Like, I can't imagine. Nobody who's out pushing themselves and doing hard things and trying to better themselves is wasting their time talking shit about people and comment sections. 100%. Or at least if you're gonna say it, come and see me on a race and be like, you suck.

2:10:17And I'd be like, oh, really? Why is that? All right, man. We gotta disabuse you of that obsession. So next time we'll do a whole therapy session on comment sections. Because we talked about that last time, I think, too. So this is still haranguing you on some level. And we gotta get your blood markers down. But I love you, buddy. Thank you, brother. You're the best. I really appreciate you coming here today. And let's go grab something to eat. Hell yeah. Thank you for having me. Thanks to everyone for tuning in. Appreciate this community. You guys are the best. Yeah. Peace out.

2:10:53That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

2:11:37Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

2:12:15Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:12:56so you you