Leading Man Joel Kinnaman On Authenticity, Facing Fear & Honoring Your Creative Calling

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36:52Speaking of, you know, making more nuanced choices or kind of being intentional about how you inhabit a role, I mean, I think like most people in America, my introduction to you was in The Killing. That was your first truly American kind of introduction. No, that was my first job in the US. It wasn't. No, it was. Yeah, that's what I thought, right? That's what brought you here from Sweden. No, I had already come here. I came here to sort of try it out. And then I was doing auditions and - So you were already living here when you got that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you had done that, what was the other movie that you did that kind of came out right around the same time, the Weinstein Company movie, where you want, there was a Swedish movie.

37:36You got like a best actor. Yeah, it's not my cash, easy money. Yeah, but that was a Swedish movie. Yeah, yeah. No, so I was working in Sweden and then I moved to the States. Right. And then I was doing auditions and - You did a shitload of stuff in Sweden before the killing. I mean, your IMDB is like 10 miles long of all the Swedish stuff that you did before you came here. I had an intense career in Sweden. I finished acting school in 2007 and I was on stage for a couple of years in the National Theater. And then at the same time, I did nine features in 16 months. Wow. And I played the lead in six of them.

38:26So it was like a very intense, and then I moved to the States. And The Killing was sort of the first, it was sort of the introduction to an American audience of like this Scandi noir genre that now we can all enjoy on Netflix. Like I just, I love watching all the, you know, all these like crime noirs that are all from that part of the world. So dark and, you know, not interested in happy endings. And not at all. Yeah, and the killing, you know, was definitely that, but your character was almost on some level like comedic relief, like the choices that you were making about that guy. It was really riveting.

39:05Like you made an indelible impression. You're like, who is that dude? And then now here you are like the hardest working man in Hollywood, like you're all over the place. But that must've been, the reception to that must've been pretty cool at the time because that show was a big deal when it aired. Yeah, but it was a weird show because it was, you know, it's such a long time ago now. and the sort of TV space was so different then. It was like right in the beginning still of the sort of golden era of TV where audiences were still sort of steeped in an older tradition and had expectations that were different because like the first season, the season finale of the first season of that show created an outrage and people were furious.

40:03I don't remember that. And abandoned the show because it was a whole season where they felt that they were promised that they were going to find out who the killer was in the end of the first season. And then you didn't find out. You didn't deliver on that. And people were furious and abandoned the show. And then the second season was, In the first season, we were sort of like, Mireille got nominated and there was sort of like good. And then the second season, it was like just abandoned by critics.

40:38And then it got canceled after two seasons. And then the third season got picked up again. It was actually Netflix's second show that they produced. It was a co-production with Netflix. They'd only done House of Cards. Right. And then they co-produced the third season of The Killing together with AMC. And then it got canceled again. AMC canceled it. And then Netflix ended up picking up like an abbreviated fourth season of it. So it was a show that sort of really found an intense audience, but it was canceled twice. And then sort of after the fact on streaming, it really, I still like people that sort of know me from that show, they're always friendlier to me than people that know me from other things.

41:33There's something with that character. Because, well, there was something very endearing about him as fucked up as he was, you know? Like he seemed like a good hang, even though he was like chaotic and unstable. and like, you know, in his own weird fucked up way. Yeah, I love playing Holder. And that was sort of an interesting transition because that's a remake of a Swedish show. Danish show, Danish show. Oh, it's Danish. Yeah, we used to, we owned them for a while, so it's okay, but yeah. Okay. But I assume that that then led to, you know, all of these opportunities, like getting noticed in that, opened up the door for you.

42:09Yeah, yeah, I mean, I was pretty arrogant and uh full of myself there for a while yeah and uh yeah i uh because i there was a while when i was like just like just fucking cancel the show already i want to go make big movies and uh be a movie star i don't have time for this shit anymore and then and then and then but i was glad that i at least while i was shooting the show i kind of when it came back i i did really appreciate um that it was something special. And also like me and Mireille, we got along so well. And I mean, we're close friends to this day. And then what was really special with that show too was, I mean, we had so many great directors.

42:57There's so many like feature film directors that came in and did episodes, but Jonathan Demme, the, you know, the Silence of the Lamb and the legend. He fell in love with the show and then called Veena and asked if he could come direct. And then he directed an episode in the third season and then he ended up directing the series finale. Oh, wow. And yeah, he was one of those sort of bright genius. He was like a friendly genius. He was like a son that like when he looked at people, they just kind of like warmed up and like blossomed. He just had this, he engaged everyone. Everyone just, he was a beautiful man.

43:50Yeah, yeah. He died way too soon. Legend. Obviously when you're early in your career, you're auditioning, you just wanna get jobs or whatever. But now in the position that you're in now, what is the process? Like how do you choose what to get involved with? Like what are the variables or the parameters that are most important to you when you're looking at a project to decide like, is this something I want to be in or invest in? Yeah, I mean, the most important thing, I mean, the two most important things are the director and the character. I think before I would actually put the director further down and I would put the character first.

44:30now though they're sort of equal and i and i realized that i think it's also it's a different um it's a different thinking when you're coming up and uh and when you're trying to make and make a name for yourself than when you're sort of at a level and you want to make great things because like coming up it can even be good to to you know have a great role in a sort of semi-shitty project because you have a chance to shine. And you can, like, if you're great and everyone else is mediocre, then, you know, you'll get noticed. So I think that's sort of how I looked at things when I was coming up. I was like, if I saw a role, like, I know I can make something out of that.

45:15And it doesn't matter who the director is, like, as long as they stay out of my way. um but then but then now it's like it doesn't matter if you're gonna do a great performance and something that is a piece of shit right because nobody's gonna see it and uh so uh so now for me it's uh it's like director character story um i mean they're all really and and it It kinda has to check all the boxes. And then I think money is number four. Yeah, of course. I mean, but the thing is like, you're in an industry where there isn't a ton of agency over what you get to do, but now that you're like this leading man and you're in all these movies and you've established that you can do the thing and you're bankable in that regard.

46:09When you look at the careers of so many actors, maybe great and not so great, their legacy or how we perceive them or how we think of them as artists and what their careers mean boils down to the choices that they've made. And some are really good at choosing the right projects. And then they have this extraordinary legacy and this like catalog of amazing work. And others who are perhaps equally as talented or as bankable, for some reason, their picker isn't as good or who knows what's going on or maybe it's just luck and, you know, look, nobody goes into a movie thinking, you know, trying to make a bad movie.

46:51Like it's almost a miracle when a movie gets made, let alone is good. But at this, and there's only so much control you have over that, but you see these people and you're like, oh, if they just done this or this or they hadn't done that or whatever, and then suddenly they're out of the game and their career is on a very different arc or trajectory. So those choices that you make become like really mission critical in terms of how you think about your career and the longevity of what you wanna do and what you wanna stand for as an artist. Yeah, no, you nailed it. Yeah, especially, it's exactly that when you get to that position where you have built up an audience and people are sort of, you know you want to create a feeling that oh we can go see you know a joel kinnaman movie and uh and and it's gonna have a certain amount of quality like it might not it might not always be uh like a hit but there's gonna be a certain level like there's a certain kind of taste that that is um that you know that you can deliver on in some way and it comes down to taste and how you pick But then, you know, there's a lot of variables, of course, so you can't control it all.

48:08And at my level, I can't control it all. But yeah, it's – and, you know, you also – I work with people as well and I get their input. And, you know, of course, the decision comes down. I make the decision, of course, but I'm very happy with, like, my manager and my agents. And so, you know, we discuss these things and you try to, you know, limit the probability of it not being good, you know. But then for me, it's also really important that the character scares me a little bit, you know. Because I'm also always focusing on avoiding stagnation, both as a person and as an artist. And so that's why I really try to stay away from playing the same kind of character over and over again.

49:05And it's sort of the artistic tradition that I come from in Europe where the highest is always to, as an actor, to do the most different kind of characters. You know, that's why Nick Cage is like the most incredible expression of that. But that is sort of in me the whole time. I'm trying to stay like, you know, 10 % outside of my comfort zone and everything that I do. Who's the director that you most want to work with? Who's like at the top of the list of the people? Like if you had your druthers.

49:45you know of course tarantino you know it's uh he's is you know been behind so many iconic uh characters say the safety brothers yeah um are they are they still going to be directing together i think they're kind of doing their own separate things right now okay so probably they're exciting filmmakers though yeah really really exciting um and you see the kind of performance that they get from their actors and they choose, you know, they get what's so fascinating with them. And you see that they help the actor immerse themselves into the world that they are portraying. So, you know, they get someone like Rob Pattinson or - Yeah, what they got out of him in good time is insane.

50:34Unbelievable. That movie is unreal. Yeah. I mean, Rob is, you know, becoming one of the, you know, he's one of the greatest of our generation for sure, you know. And he makes really interesting choices that are counterintuitive. I've always like really commended him, you know, because he got super famous and was like really, you know, hounded paparazzi famous after the whole of his vampire movies. And because he also got, you know, mixed into, you know, tabloid city with the girlfriend that he had at the time. so he would he he had that like really high level of fame so you know the the studios were throwing every spandex suit they could find on him and he just would not put them on you know he he didn't do any you know superhero stuff or any any anything that would you know that other actors would like kind of jump on because you know it's a it's a kind of a straight ticket to a list level where you can really be bankable for for bigger projects and um and he just he instead went off and did a bunch of strange movies with really interesting directors so he basically went to film school yeah and you know cronenberg and you know all these films that he did and he went to film school and and started working with really interesting artists and then and became a very interesting artist himself.

52:00And then put on the Batman suit. And then he comes back and does Batman. I mean, that's like, that's how you do it. He won, like Rob won. That's pretty funny. Speaking of great directors, I watched Girl with the Dragon Tattoo like two weeks ago. I was like revisiting all these Fincher movies, getting ready to watch The Killer. And hilariously, like you're like a staffer at Millennium Magazine in that movie, like in the background, you have like no lines. Do you have a single line in that movie? I think I whisper something. Was that before the killing? No, it was during. Did you get edited out?

52:37Did you have lines that got edited out of that or whatever? No, I was cast for the second and third movie. So that character became a bigger character in the second and third movies. But then they never ended up happening. And then Fincher decided that he wanted to introduce the character in those scenes, just wanted to place him there. You're just kind of around. I know, it's pretty funny. Coming from Sweden and living here, what are the kind of cultural differences between the Swedish perspective on, I don't know, life and lifestyle versus United States? Like one of the things, we opened this with talking about Wim Hof a little bit, like it's all about cold plunging and sauna here.

53:21And it's like, well, this goes back thousands of years. in Sweden. It must be hilarious to you that everyone's like losing their minds over this. I mean, it's great. Also now when there's so much literature around it and people understand how good it is for your health. Both in Sweden and Finland, the Swedish and Finnish traditions of also drinking vodka in the sauna, I don't know if that is a real longevity measure. but I mean I think we have a more sort of stoic approach to life and and I think you know it's really like east and west thing where where I think Sweden is also you know pretty far east and and when when someone asks you you know like how you doing and then you know it's a very reasonable thing to say like bad you know not good today you know just heavy you know i just feel like i have a heavy day you know just woke up feeling really melancholy and then that's that okay and then and that can be a conversation where so that was like an issue for me when i moved here and i was sort of um going to the meetings with hollywood producers and casting agents and in you know like bright california and and and you know you you sit down in these meetings and to get to know each other and sort of you're intended to like show your personality and my my approach to that was like i'm gonna like be who i am you know that's that's that's the personality that i have so that's the only one i'm gonna show and um so when i woke up feeling melancholy on a day and i would go into one of these meetings with you know these like bright face casting agents and they were like, hi, how are you feeling today?

55:17How are you doing? And I would be like, it's okay. You know, I just kind of woke up and I, you know, I just feel pretty heavy today. I just felt like, you know, you know, I don't know what I'm doing here. You know, what, what's, what, what is this all about? And then I'd just be quiet. And you just see that their faces just fell, you know? And I'm like, you know, it's okay, I'm fine. You know, I'm not gonna kill myself, but I'm just, you know, just heavy today. how you doing and then and then i learned later like you know i get the feedback like is is he okay and uh and my my manager would be like you know you might want to like brighten it up a little bit and uh so i i learned i learned that the the hard way that when they ask you know how you doing it's not it's not a real question there's a is there a bit is this true or false like there's a bit of a tall poppy syndrome thing in Sweden, right?

56:13Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We call it the law of Janta, the Janta law. Janta? Yeah. I don't know why it's called that, it's just the name. So how does that work with you saying, I'm gonna go to America and be a movie star with your buddies back home? Yeah. Yeah, so I think my personality is probably like pretty un-Swedish. and I think I really looked up to the sort of American spirit and I loved how people here kind of celebrate other people's success. You know, it's much less of a sort of like jealous snipiness of like cutting someone down that's trying something different. And so I sort of acknowledged and saw that existing here.

57:05And I love that. I thought that this is so much more positive. For me, the whole thing of like feeling shitty or being disappointed in someone else's success was always like such a sign of weakness to me. It was like, I don't understand. Like, I don't, I'm not like, my house isn't getting, you know, smaller because his house is getting bigger. So to not be inspired by other people's success and feeling like shitty and then talking shit about it is like such a, I thought it was such a sign of weakness and sort of that you didn't have the insight that you were kind of embarrassing yourself in behaving that way.

57:49um so i think i had that analysis down pretty quickly and in sweden and and i and i remember like in my group of friends uh it was it was a lot of competition and uh and and i i had a whole group of friends where i felt that you know they weren't on my team you know they weren't celebrating my success and I was celebrating theirs and I wasn't threatened by them doing well, but it wasn't the other way around. So it came to a point where I actually had a like I broke up with a whole, my whole like older group of friends in Sweden and just like focused on like three or four of those friends. You had done a lot of work in Sweden as a young person.

58:43I'm sure in that country, people knew who you were. And then at some point you like took a break, right? And just traveled, like, I don't know if you quit acting, but you're like, I'm done for a while. And you went and did a whole bunch of different things and had weird jobs and stuff like that. Was that like an intentional way of like just getting perspective on what you wanted to do and who you wanted to be, or what was that all about? That was actually before I started acting. Oh, it was? Yeah. So I finished high school or the equivalent in Sweden. And then I went to Norway and just had a bunch of odd jobs to save money to go travel.

59:26And I hadn't made up my mind of what I wanted to do. So I had this idea that I was going to work and travel for seven years before I made up my mind of what I wanna do with my life. That's seven years. Seven years. Why seven? I mean, it's like, I'll take a year or something. Yeah, no, I don't know. It was, that's just something I had in my mind. Like my whole family is sort of travelers.

59:53Everyone's like been sort of a backpacker. My dad is a crazy story, but even my mom and all my sisters, we've all been going traveling around the world and that's been a big part of our family culture. So it was just something I wanted to see the world and I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and wasn't very confident in anything. I wasn't particularly good at anything. I didn't have any sort of academic prospect because I kind of fucked up school. So it was just, I was just going to make money. I was pretty good at like hustling making money and and then I was gonna go travel that was sort of my idea and how did the acting thing come about then so I'd actually done a TV series when I was 10 years old I had like a childhood acting experience and my oldest sister she was an actor so she sort of introduced that it was a profession and and then I got this opportunity to do this like TV series in Sweden.

1:00:59So I had, I'd had a childhood experience of it when I was 10 and then sort of forgot about that. And, and then some of my friends, uh, were actors. They were like, they were going to acting school. There was a couple of them. So I was, I had this, I had this like childhood experience of it. And, and then, you know, I had these friends that were doing it. And then after like a year and a half of traveling, I just had this idea of like, you know, maybe I'll try that. You know, maybe I'll try that. And then I started working with my friend, Gustav Skarsgård, who's Alex Skarsgård's younger brother and Stella Skarsgård's son as well.

1:01:42And I started working with him and he was kind of shaking his head, but I didn't give up. and he gave me enough confidence to kind of continue. And then I decided that I was going to try out for the National Theater School. And I worked with this actor, with an older actor. I got a hold of an older actor that agreed to work with me. And I was working on this monologue from Long Day's Journey Into Night by Eugene O 'Neill. and it was this text where like Edmund just finally like goes against his dad and just lets him hear every every like you know all of his he lets out all of his frustration and anger and sadness at his dad's you know failures and and not being there not caring and uh and I'd had my own issues with my dad and uh and it was like the and it was in one of the rehearsals when i was was working with this text and then something just clicked in and the text just like kind of came alive and it just took over and i got like filled with emotion and the word just came flying out in a way that i wasn't really planning them and um and i understood later like this was the the first time I had gotten flow.

1:03:13And after the scene was done, I was kind of like panting and just quiet. And of course I understood in some way that like this is probably not bad. And then that actor, Thomas, he was like, okay, listen, you can do this as a profession, but it's gonna be a lot of work, but you can do this as a profession. You got locked in. Yeah. Yeah, that's gotta be an intoxicating feeling though, to know that you can connect with the material in that way and channel something from a flow state based on your experience and some facility for inhabiting a character. Yeah, that was a high, you know, it was a real natural high.

1:03:55And yeah, and then I got really addicted to that feeling and I was chasing that. And then I just became obsessed. and it was also, I hadn't really experienced being good at anything before. Like I've been okay, you know, but I was okay at sports but I was never like great at anything. So it was the first time where I like, there's something that just kind of caught me and I felt like I could maybe be good at something And that just changed my whole outlook and view on the possibility of my life. And yeah, I like started looking at myself with a different... Like level of potential and respect in a way.

1:04:46And then that feeling just started like vibrating and it just made me become completely obsessed and I did nothing but focusing on acting and trying to get as good as possible. That's super interesting. You know, to have like a peak experience like that, but also to have the self-awareness, the presence of mind to like recognize that that was a special moment and could perhaps lead your entire life in a different direction. And it makes me wonder, like you can't have those experiences unless you're putting yourself out there and trying lots of things. So many people go through life and maybe they never have an experience like that because they keep their lives sort of contained in a certain way.

1:05:35But then of the people that are lucky enough to trip upon their version of that type of experience, what is the quality within an individual to like help them lock onto that and realize like the gravity of it or the importance or like the potential, it's like potential energy, right? Like, oh, here's something, if I nurture this, maybe I can have a different kind of life. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think it's it's gonna it has to be so individual right it has to sort of collide with your history and your life and then the more I started working and then you know deeper in I started seeing that sort of my life experience and the different experiences that I've had and in many ways like all the problems that I'd had and and all the all the trauma that I had experienced in my life, all of a sudden weren't like something that was dragging me down, but it was actually like my greatest assets.

1:06:46Yeah, it's like fertile soil. Yeah, and I was like, fuck, I have all these pieces and all these experiences that I can like put into characters that I don't think that most people can. And so it, yeah. And then you just have a bunch of SARS guards around you. Yeah. Right? Because everybody in Sweden knows everyone, right? Yeah. And there's one high school. The crazy thing is me, Gustav Skarsgård, I think Bill Skarsgård too, Noomi Rapace, who plays the girl with the crying tattoo. We all went to the same high school. And Alexander also? Alex lived right next door to that high school because that's where the scars guards lived.

1:07:36But I think he went to another school actually. That's a pretty high hit rate, like per capita. Yeah, crazy. There needs to be like a plaque or something like that. Have you gone back to your high school or like revisited that place to kind of marinate? No, I actually didn't really fully graduate. They'll give you an honorary degree though. You can go back there at some point. It's called like, in Swedish it's called Samlat betygsdokument. It's like a collection of your grades, but it's not like a diploma because I actually didn't get enough points. Right.

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1:09:56You have a place in Sweden now, right? Yeah. Well, we have sort of a family place. So a few years ago, I bought a plot of land in the archipelago and we've just been adding little houses. So I built like a family village. Which island? It's in the archipelago. It's called Vedda. It's like an hour and a half from Stockholm. I've traversed the archipelago. Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, there's 40 ,000 islands in Stockholm archipelago. I did the, I'm gonna butcher this pronunciation. So you tell me how bad this is. Otilo. Do you know what that is? Otilo. Otilo. The swim run world championships. Oh, okay.

1:10:41Which is the swim, it's a 75 kilometer race where you start in Sandam and you go to Uto, it's like 75 kilometers and you swim and run across all the islands. You're in like a modified wetsuit with your running shoes on. And so you're swimming with your running shoes on and you climb up the rocks and you run across these islands and you jump back in the water and you basically go. Is that the sort of Ironman? It's like North to South. It's like it's a thing that started there and now there's a series of these races all over the world. Have you done the Ironman? Are you in that sort of? Yeah, I do a bunch of endurance stuff.

1:11:15Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I did, I think it was 2017 that I did that race. So it was pretty cool. So I got to see up close and personal what those islands are like. It's so beautiful. What's the most challenging thing that you've done? That was the hardest one day thing that I've ever done. How many hours does it take? I think it was like nine or 10 hours or something like that. But the guys that are, so first of all, on that day, it was like the world's worst weather. There was like sideways rain. Yeah, we got a lot of that. Four to six foot like chop, it was banana, like all day. It was like the most miserable experience ever.

1:11:52And then you're freezing in the water and then you're running across these islands and you're in like a wetsuit. So you start to get overheated. And just when you start to warm up, then you're back in the water, you're like uncomfortable the entire time. Oh, wow. So that, yeah, as a one day thing, I was probably the hardest, but I've done, I've done this race called Ultraman. It's a three day double Ironman around the big island of Hawaii. and I've done that a bunch of times. Oh, Jesus. Done well in that race. And then I did five Ironmans. So, Ironman wasn't enough. I never did just an Ironman.

1:12:23I went to the longer stuff. It's a whole other thing, but this is not about me. This is about you. But my point being - Yeah, but I'm curious. My point being, I know the archipelago better than most. And what's interesting about that race is when the gun goes off, like I'm a good swimmer. So I was like near, I was in good position. The first swim is like a kilometer crossing. And then you get to this island on the other side and I've been training around here in the mountains and desert and whatever, going to the pool and then doing trail running. I thought that would be good. And these like Swedish special forces guys who train year round on this course to win this race, climb out of the water and they're dancing on these rocks like ballet dancers.

1:13:08and everybody's falling and some guy cracked his head open immediately. You know, it's not like, it's like an obstacle course as much as anything else. Yeah, it was wild. Wow. So maybe we ran across your island, I don't know. Or your compound there. But you know, mid summer, like that time of year in that part of the world is just the greatest thing. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty epic. We have like on our property, we have this, we have a sauna that's, it's legally a boat. So it's like on a raft. Initially, it was to get away from having to apply for building permits. It's hard to get building permits close to the coast.

1:13:51And all the dwellings on all those islands look like, it definitely looks like it's controlled. Like you can't just build whatever you want. Yeah, and it's very much about how it blends into the nature. And like we have all of our houses when you, it's like six houses now on the property. But when you come from the ocean, you almost can't see them because they're all like, they're all colored like the wood. It's like wood colored and with like blue. So it kind of blends into the sky. And that's very much a sort of Swedish aesthetic to like you sort of, nature is the highest. and you want to leave as little of a footprint as possible.

1:14:36So, that's also the laws that you can't have too much glass because that creates glare and yeah. It's often said that the Scandinavian countries have like the highest happy quotient. Like people are just happier there than they are in other parts of the world, despite the fact that the winter is like endless and it's dark most of the time. Like when you reflect upon your upbringing there, or your Swedish heritage, like why do you think that is? What is the sensibility of those cultures that lead to a greater degree of happiness than we experience here? I don't know, I mean, I don't know how much you can actually like, if those are true, those like sort of how people, I mean.

1:15:20If you watch Scandi Noir, it doesn't look like everyone's very happy. It doesn't look like it, right. I think that there is a general sense of, you know, I think more people in general are sort of in contact with nature and in nature, spend time in nature. I think we have things like, you know, we sauna, get in the ocean even when it's colder. I think those things are probably very good. But I mean, I know a lot of depressed Swedes too. And I think the suicide rate is pretty high as well. And the level of alcoholism, especially in the north, is pretty high as well. But the Danes seem to be happier than the Swedes.

1:16:12Finland. Yeah, and the Finns are definitely not happy. I mean, they're definitely not happy. I mean, they're almost Russian. The Finns are their own thing. I don't know. I think that there is sort of some level of stoicism in society that you sort of accept the way things are. I think people don't have too much expectation either. I think Swedes are pretty good at managing their expectations. so they won't get that disappointed. There's also a safety net. Everyone kind of knows they can only fall so far before they'll be caught. And my sense is just that everybody's out moving all the time. It doesn't matter how dark or cold it is.

1:17:09Like they're skating on the frozen waters or they're cross country skiing or they're swimming or they're jumping in freezing water and like in a way that does feel different than here. Yeah, no, for sure. And that's sort of what I was getting to with like people being in nature. People, I think exercise much more in general, the level of obesity is very different than here. And they feel like they're working to live more than, we sort of live to work here. Yeah, the general work week is 40 hours. So I think that's probably a lot less than here. And then we have a lot, the normal suite has six weeks vacation, six to eight weeks a year.

1:17:59Yeah. So there's definitely that. When you look back on your career, I mean, you came here to plant your flag in Hollywood and you've certainly done that, right? And it feels like it didn't take that long. I'm sure maybe it feels like it was longer than maybe you would have liked, but on some level, like you've realized your dreams and your ambitions. And I'm sure there's plenty of more things that you want to do and goals that you have and all of that. But when you reflect upon that, like, what do you think, like certainly talent, luck, like a lot of things have to coincide for this type of success.

1:18:40But do you think that you have a certain strength or quality that has allowed you to succeed? Like, what is your superpower? I think I have a grind in me. I wouldn't accept failure. And I think when I've come across real real adversity i've found the method in me i i used to have um i've told this story before but it's it's one of my most most important things that happened to me and sort of how what i grew out of it i used to have really punishing stage fright where i would throw up every time before I went on stage. It's hard to believe that. Yeah.

1:19:45And then I would start getting panic attacks on stage. And it was just an accumulation where, and I was still in acting school when this was happening. And it was like, I had these like voices in my head that were, you know, it was, of course, it was like insecurity and it was like, I was faced with the reality that like, maybe I'm not equipped to do this because it's clear, like I'm going up on stage and I'm not being able to do it because of what's happening inside my head and so so i was i was about three years into acting school and i just had this horrendous breakdown in front of the whole school and an audience with people from the outside where i just so completely lost it and i couldn't recover um and and i was just felt humiliated and um and embarrassed and i had this like long talk with myself where i was like i i maybe this is me telling myself that you know this is it so but then the idea of to quit was you know it was like to quit it was it felt like killing myself um because i hadn't you know finding acting was it just gave me this whole purpose in life.

1:21:25I felt like my identity before acting was just like a little thug that was just a hustler, kind of living a pretty ugly life where I would do a lot of different things to just get money. I mean, I was like robbing people. Yeah, wow. Like the character in The Killing a little bit. little bit of white dusting about it. You know, and I really didn't have any moral compass. I mean, selling shit and just not living a positive, like it was like, I don't think that I would have ended up being a career criminal at all, but it was just, I was just living a negative life and with shitty people around. And then this acting thing just really like opened up something for me it was like a possibility there was like a window into a different life and feeling and i understood later it opened up a window of like feeling differently about myself so when i was sort of confronted with this it was so devastating and uh and and it was and i couldn't accept it but i didn't know what to do Like I didn't know what to do.

1:22:44I didn't know what to do. So then in that darkness, I sort of came up with this like hail Mary of an idea. I was like these fucking demons that are in my head, like these voices that like cripple me, that ruin everything. Like what is the worst thing that they could experience? Like what is the worst thing? And then I figured out it would be to do like a monologue on stage where I'm like, just me, nothing.

1:23:17And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna challenge these. And the next project that we had in school was we had our own projects. And it was like a three-week deal where we got to do our own thing for three weeks. And most people took it as sort of a break. They did like one scene together, like four people did one scene. And I found this play called Howie the Rookie. It was like this play from Northern Ireland. And it's written for two people where the first person is then featured in the second storytellers. And I did both. And I ended up doing this play. I ended up creating 16 different characters that all had like a different body and a different voice.

1:24:04And I started rehearsing this play like I was obsessed. like I was possessed and it was like an hour it ended up being like about an hour and 40 minutes long I knew it by heart after 10 days like I was off because it was all I did and then we presented it for the school and I don't know there was something I was like just overcome with like I was so obsessed with kind of defeating this like I guess it was fear or I don't know what it was but not accepting myself as a success or you know I don't know what it what it was like what those voices actually are that sort of insecurity but I played it and didn't trip on a word like just smashed it and ended up doing five performances of that and then that play got picked up by the national theater so i actually ended up continued to playing it professionally and after that because that's actually like really high difficulty level um you know because i had so many different characters and i was sort of playing it in in the format of like uh i watched I wanted to sort of make it feel like Richard Pryor, you know.

1:25:33Like a stand up, one man show kind of thing. That sort of way of like talking, you know, where the characters would talk with each other and, you know, and of course I didn't have the pressure of needing to be funny, but it had funny elements in it. But after that, then the first job that I got after I finished acting school,

1:25:59was to play Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. And it was also the opening play of a new national theater with one of the best Swedish, maybe the best Swedish playwright that did a whole new revamp. And I was on the stage for three hours and 40 minutes doing Raskolnikov. And I think that would have been like really crippling for me before this for sure. But for anyone, it was like a lot of pressure for that to be your first job. But after I've done this monologue, it felt like nothing. Like I had so much, it felt like so much easier. And that sort of, that was the inflection point in my career.

1:26:44That's where everything changed. And I found a way to like create real confidence by facing my fears and like going at it head on. and that I found that solution in that darkness, it changed everything for me. And it also became sort of a metric of how I dealt with difficult times ahead. To run towards them. Yeah, to face it and to like challenge it. And it's like, okay, watch this. Let's fucking go, right. Yeah, I mean, there's so much in what you just shared. I mean, this idea that you're this aimless person who is perhaps on a not so great trajectory, who's lacking self-esteem, stumbles into this situation where you found something that is truly meaningful to you and then struggling to be able to kind of master your own vehicle to do it is almost like an existential crisis, right?

1:27:45Like the stakes are very high for you because you're like, I finally found this thing and now I can't do it. Like that's terrifying. How do you resolve that? And to have the instinct to move towards it rather than away from it is almost like your own form of exposure therapy. Like the only way I can like get over this is to like destigmatize it by upping the ante and forcing myself to be in that situation and walk through the fear to get to the other side. but to do that with a project of such a high degree of difficulty like yeah that's a that it's almost like an instinctual thing that you came up with that probably wasn't even on some level conscious no it definitely wasn't conscious it just uh yeah i mean it was kind of out of just desperation um it lit like i don't have it in me to like kill myself uh um but to sort of give up would be to it would be to kill the the the potential of any life that i actually wanted to live um so to sort of give up on that was so depressing so i think that's the why i found the courage in a way to sort of.

1:29:09But then to have that muscle memory around running towards something that scares you. I mean, the question that I asked you is like, if you have a superpower, what is it? You said you know how to grind, but beneath that, it's that instinct to go towards the scary thing that spills over into every aspect of your life. Like if you have that facility to not shy away from those things, then you're in this sort of curious growth mindset way of approaching your life, right? This was a very good conversation. I actually haven't put, I hadn't put those things together before, yeah. Do you find yourself doing that in other areas of your life?

1:29:48I mean, you mentioned that you have a relationship coach, like that's another, like you have to seek out, like you have to be willing to go into an uncomfortable place if you wanna have greater intimacy in your relationships, if you wanna advance your career. Like every category, the solution is always moving towards the thing that you wish you didn't have to do. Yeah. And I think also like the great things in life you get by putting in a lot of work. Like it's so like the relationship that I have, you know, the woman that I, it's, we don't have an easy relationship. Like we, not long ago, we were throwing smoothies at each other in public, you know.

1:30:34What's the, where's the differential? Like, where's the tension? Like, what's the issue that you run up against? I mean, it's all her fault, you know, it's all. Tell it to the relationship. Yeah, yeah. No, we're both pretty stubborn people and we both like to get it our way. and um and you know it's like sometimes it's like fire fire meets fire yeah and um and we have a lot of passion and a lot of fun um but find it hard to compromise and it's like we're gonna figure it out and we're gonna have like a great big life um and uh and uh but it's gonna you need a little outside intervention. Oh, like outside inside, it's like, it's Mark, it's MDMA, it's all of those things.

1:31:36So, psychedelics is part of that protocol? Yeah, for sure. Wow, interesting. Yeah, for sure. Your mom's a therapist though, right? So, it's not like therapy is a foreign concept. No, but actually I haven't like, I've been trying to find a good therapist for myself. I haven't done much therapy, actually. Like, I don't have, like, someone that I talk with on an individual level, and I really need it. But I've struggled finding someone. But, yeah, I think I grew up with my mom definitely always instilled a way of dealing with problems, talking about problems, like trying to getting to the bottom of like what's really going on?

1:32:28Like why did you throw this thing at the teacher? Yeah, you were like a hyperactive kid who was getting in trouble. Yeah, I think I was a bit of a nightmare. And how are things with dad? Great now. we definitely had our volatile period and also he was raised in an American way where he got his fair share of licks and a little bit of that translated into our relationship. So rocky during your turbulent adolescence? Yeah, but, you know, it was, he didn't know how to deal with me. He had a bad, he responded poorly. And he, you know, problems with his anger, controlling his anger.

1:33:35And, yeah, so, but, you know, we got through it. And when I was, I think in my early 20s, we had this couple of really deep conversations where he apologized for some of the things that he had done. And we have a really beautiful and close relationship now. That's good. How do you stay grounded and right-sized with all the nonsense and bullshit that comes with the fame part of what you do? yeah it's uh i i don't find it so hard but um you know i for me my level of fame it's a little different in sweden it can get a little intense still even though it's not as intense as it was you know maybe five years ago um for me it's it's really important to have like really good people around you that that you have real friendships with i mean one big key is to not sort of play the fame game and just hang out with uh people that you hang out with because how they reflect on you do you have like a solid group of friends here that aren't afraid to tell you what's what yeah yeah yeah you have to have but also like i don't need that really you know i i know what's what and um i think that i i i had a period of my life where i got lost in that i i didn't realize it until a few years ago but where i was really concerned i was thinking a lot about how i was perceived and and i was really focused on how I was being perceived.

1:35:20And I would even choose friends on how they would sort of reflect on me. And like, you know, I wanna be, you know, this guy, you know, that comes with a big crew. And then I think social media really doesn't help.

1:35:40But actually this was like more before that, but yeah, and then I realized that, you know, like that that is such a that it's it's it's such a hollow pursuit you know or that it's so it's so it's so shallow to to look at life and and people around you and and and and like so I sort of kind of figured that out and and then I you know chose stayed away from all that kind of stuff I really haven't been chasing any of those sort of, I had, it was a couple of years when I got a little bit lost in it and I wanted to be seen with, you know, other famous people and, you know, I wanted to be seen as someone that had a big crew that, you know.

1:36:31Rolling deep, entourage, the whole thing. Well, I noticed that you've stepped back from social media. I mean, you used to share videos and stuff like that. And I went to your Instagram and there's just like one picture and you're like, clearly you're not participating in this anymore. Yeah. No, that was a great realization, how bad it was for me. And it just put my mind in the wrong place. For me, social media just made me look at my life and made me feel like I wasn't doing enough, that I should have all these other things, I should be doing this, I should be doing that. It just gave me a bunch of anxiety.

1:37:12And I realized like I'm a pretty happy person. And I was just realizing that the anxiety that I was feeling, a lot of it was like coming from that. And then when I cut it out and when I removed all social media, man, it really changed me. Talk more about that. Yeah. First of all, it's like it's so much noise. You just care and think about so much bullshit that's just, it's like gossip. It's basically gossip. You're looking at other people's lives and seeing, you know, the fake version that they're holding up to the world. And so it's a bunch of noise. But then it also, like, makes you feel shitty about yourself.

1:38:00And it makes me feel like, man, I should be doing this. I should be doing that. Why don't I have this? Why don't I have friends like that? All these stupid thoughts that aren't based in reality and have zero value. And these algorithms are just kind of feeding on insecurity. And as soon as I cut it out, it just all faded away. And I realized I wasn't missing out on anything. I mean, I miss out on some economic opportunities of endorsement deals and stuff like that. But it's okay. I make money in other ways. Yeah, I mean, you're legit established. Like it's really not necessary for you. I can imagine for somebody who's coming up, like this is what you have to do and you have to be active here.

1:38:48And this is how you, you know, unless you develop or cultivate some level of following, it's more difficult to get cast or whatnot. You're kind of past that. So you don't have to worry about that. But on some level as an actor, it doesn't serve you for the public to know so much about you, right? Like your job is to be subsumed into a character. And there's something about the mystique of like not knowing what this person's private life is all about that I think makes you more potent as a performer, but the incentives of our modern culture are all moving in the other direction. But when we look at somebody like Quentin Tarantino or Daniel Day-Lewis, like we don't know anything about them.

1:39:33Like they're incredible artists who go away and disappear for however long and then return to treat us all to their gift and we celebrate them and it's all we think and talk about culturally for a moment because they're just in their art. Like they don't have to participate in this, whatever you wanna call it, like fucking bullshit influencer economy or whatever it is that's now sort of part of it's sort of considered part of the job for somebody like you. So do you have pressure? Like are there like, do you have team members who are like, you sure you wanna do that? Like, no, actually not. Like, because my team is so old school and it's also I think because acting is still pretty like shielded from it.

1:40:21So it's really, you know, of course there are a bunch of these sort of stars that have social media and they have businesses and all this is sort of intertwined and the rocks and the Ryan Reynolds of the world, they're also really good at it. They're good at it. I was also so bad at it. It feels natural for them to do it. It doesn't feel forced. I mean, Ryan is the best. He's incredible. But he's also, he's so funny and it's like - And you could tell he's enjoying it. Yeah, yeah. For me, I was just, I sucked at it. And it just made me a more nervous, insecure person in general. And if you figure it out, it's great.

1:41:14If you enjoy it and you're good at it, it's great. I think there's a lot of professional benefits to it. But for me, the benefits of staying off way outweighed the benefits I was getting from like trying to participate in that whole game. And then, you know, even though I sort of came up old school in the way that, you know, just like you were saying, that you want the audience to know as little about you as possible. for them it would be easier for them to suspend their disbelief when they see you in a character. I don't know if that really matters that much, but I just don't wanna play that game.

1:42:05Yeah. I'm sure you get asked all the time by young actors, aspiring actors, for advice for a young artist that's at the inception of their career and they're staring down the barrel of all the obstacles and challenges that are inevitably gonna come in their direction. What is the advice that you give to somebody who has an artistic aspiration? Don't have a plan B. Go all in. There's no other alternative. If you have a plan B, as soon as it gets tough, that will weed out all the pretenders. You got, and it's like, and that's the scary part, you know, but it is a high risk, high reward endeavor.

1:42:55And the competition is so high. There's so many talented people that want it. You know, there is a great life at the other end of it with both artistic and monetary reward. So, you know, of course, it's a really attractive best case outcome. but if you want to get there, it's like just being talented is not going to be enough. So you got to become, I mean, I'm just speaking from my experience and my experience is you have to become obsessed

1:43:33and I think you have to have a singular focus. so uh so that means you know at least for a part of your life being prepared to sacrifice everything else and um and just do that I think that's the only way but you know if there if there's another way that's great but but that's that was sort of what worked for me and when I've talked to other the friends that also have kind of gotten through that sort of needle or been able to thread that needle. It's yeah. Patience, persistence. Yeah. I mean, my goal was when I started out, I didn't have like Hollywood in mind at all. For me, success looked like being an actor that is on stage and sometimes gets to do TV and film in Sweden.

1:44:36That was success. But I also saw that you have to be top 10, top 15 % of the most successful. I remember in my acting school, the National Theater School, we'd have these sort of parties on the weekends and then these actors would come and hang out and you'd have these sort of actors in their 40s, 50s that were not successful and they would hang out at these school parties because they were hoping that some theater director was gonna show up and they had this desperate stench. stench and I saw that life because it's a tricky profession where you're always looking for the next gig. You have to be comfortable with a lot of uncertainty.

1:45:35Yeah, very, very comfortable with that. But it's also, you're always in pursuit of another gig. So if people are not wanting to, if they're not asking you to dance, you're gonna be standing there on the dance floor. And if you do that too long, I think it does something to you that's not good. You become insecure. And also because it's so paired with who you are, it's a difficult profession to be unsuccessful in. That also becomes repellent to other people. So it's a cycle, right? Yeah. Because the more desperate you are, the less people, people can read that energy and it moves them in a direction opposite to where you are.

1:46:24Yeah. So I actually, even though I had this enormous, I felt this gratitude and I found this passion for this and it created a positive identity for myself for the first time, I also saw this and I actually vowed to myself that if like, Like if I'm not in the top 10 % of my generation after three years, I'm gonna quit and I'm gonna do something else. And that's something I told myself. I don't know if I would have. Yeah, I was wondering like if that had occurred, do you think you would have done that? Because the other piece here that I think is really important is that lights on moment where you locked in and you had that flow state experience and the lights went on and you realize like, this was something that you could fall in love with.

1:47:13Like that's not about a career. It's not about paychecks or anything like that. That's about like something inside of you that needed to be nourished. And I think that speaks to like the authenticity of the journey that you went on. Like what is the why behind it, I think? Because the why is the only thing that's gonna sustain you, especially if you don't have a plan B. That's true. yeah i think maybe that was a maybe that was something that i was telling myself you know to push myself um because it is it is a tricky thing that you know but but but it is also what but i to to really like when when people ask you know me um like how how to do it and how to um you know like like how do you how do i get famous and how do i you know and i'm like if you start in in that end of fame, then you're done.

1:48:11You have to fall in love with the craft and you have to become obsessed with the craft and continue to hone that. And then like the success will come. And I think that's it too, but it is a tricky profession to get stuck in, But I think the only way is to go all out and to just be relentless. The crazy thing about it is that it's one of the only career paths where your entire life could change overnight. Like audition, audition, audition, audition, and then pilot or whatever it is and everything changes. So it's almost like this weird slot machine. I know. Not that it's all about luck. Like obviously there's preparation and talent and there's a lot that goes into it.

1:49:07But I think that that sensibility that as dark as it is or as hard as it is that it could literally change tomorrow because you got a call back, can keep people in it maybe longer than they should. I don't know. But I would imagine that you can create an unhealthy relationship with that fantasy of what a life could be that detracts from the craft piece of it. Yeah. But the thing is that when I look at like fellow actors and people that I've known over the years,

1:49:52the people, it's very rare where you see someone that is really talented and also works really hard that doesn't eventually get their due. That's good to hear. Because I would have thought maybe it's not quite the case. Like it's not a meritocracy. Like I'm sure you know lots of super talented performers who don't get the break or the breaks don't come as easily as perhaps fairness would say they should. I feel like a lot of the time, and then of course success can look in different ways, but the hard thing is to kind of stay strong and to nourish your confidence while being rejected when you're sort of in this audition game.

1:50:54And I think you have to find other ways to practice your craft, to like just do a play and to get on stage and put something together yourself where you're actually practicing your craft and where you can showcase it and not just do these 100 auditions. Right, right. Are you gonna get back on the stage? man i've been saying that for so long and it's uh i was i've been actively looking and i'm trying but it's uh what's next what do you got coming up well who knows it's uh this whole this fall has been very frustrating with strikes and projects moving it kind of the whole business got shook up so i've had a couple of projects push and fall apart and i'm supposed to go shoot I was supposed to go shoot something in January.

1:51:52I think now it's pushing to March. And yeah, I had my whole year booked up. My whole year was kind of set and then things fell apart and then I had it set again. And so I'm not a hundred percent sure. Yeah. The things that I have lined up are half of them are sort of independent and they're more vulnerable to change. Yeah. Well, I'm a fan, dude. I appreciate you coming to talk to me today. It's cool to get a glimpse into your life. Thanks, man. I really enjoyed this conversation. This is the longest. Is it? We can keep going. We can go for hours more if you want. No, but it's like, I love podcasts and I love listening to the podcast.

1:52:36So it's really valuable to have these like long form conversations. Yeah, cool, man. And I got some insights into myself here. Good. But give you something. Did I find my therapist? I'll serve that role for you. And yeah, come back when you have something more to talk about. I'd love to. I really enjoyed talking to you. I appreciate it. So did I, yeah. So everybody check out Silent Night. I think it's coming out on VOD like December. It's playing in theaters. It's in theaters now. Go check it in theaters. Yeah, this isn't going up right away. I think, but it will be available for streaming. Okay, yeah.

1:53:14Soon too, I think. I think on the 19th of December, it's available on VOD. And For All Mankind, dude. For All Mankind, streaming. There's so many things I wanted to talk to you about. We didn't even get to go deep into all of that. So yeah, I'd love to have you back, Matt. Yeah, yeah. If you'll come back. I'll be back, for sure. Peace, dude, bro. Peace.

1:53:37That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voices of Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

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1:54:59Portraits by Davey Greenberg Graphic and social media assets Courtesy of Daniel Solis Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting And website management And of course, the theme music was created By Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt And Harry Mathis Appreciate the love, love the support See you back here soon Peace Plants Namaste

1:55:29Thank you.