Let Them Theory: Mel Robbins On Reclaiming Your Power, Finding Freedom In Letting Go & The Simple Tool That's Transforming Millions of Lives

27:50So to say like, let it go, there's sort of a humility to do that. Whereas let them is like, it presumes that your irritation is valid and justified and that you're the bigger, better person who's being magnanimous and granting them the permission to be who they are. Yes, yes. Which is like very, very interesting because part of like acknowledging your lack of control is to disabuse yourself of the self-obsession that is driving it in the first place. I don't even know what the hell that sentence means. What do you mean disabuse obsession? What is that? So in other words, like, it's somewhat egocentric and narcissistic, is it not, to say, well, I'm gonna let them because I'm so all-powerful and poor other people who don't see the world as clearly as I do, and clearly I'm right.

28:42Like, it's validating your irritation. Well, why shouldn't your irritation be valid? You're feeling it. But I guess from a recovery perspective, like letting it go is about introspection. It's like, what's my side of the street here? Have I engaged in any behaviors that contributed to this other person behaving the way that they're behaving that I can look at and maybe rectify? And where is my ego getting inflamed around like how this other person is behaving that I need to keep in check because I know I can't control that other person. All I can control, this gets into the second part that we're gonna get into is like how I comport myself, right?

29:24See, already that's too intellectual for me. Like I would not - I know, but this is the truth. But see, I can't let anything go and I'm gonna tell you why. All right, but hold on. So - Because I think it's different. There's a smugness to it, right? Of course, yes. And so how does that play out? Well, here's how it plays out. First, I wanna address the letting go. I haven't been able to let something go and I'll tell you why. Because when my friends go away without me and it hurts my feelings, right? And I say, I have to just let it go. I feel powerless. I feel like this thing happened and now I, and it hurt me or I'm hurt because of it or I'm reacting in a way, whether I have the right to or not, whether it is fair to like have those feelings or not, we could debate all day long.

30:08Feelings are feelings. They're chemical explosions. You got no control over the emotions that come up. And so when I have to say to myself, just let it go. Like your dad's disappointed, just let it go, Mel. What I feel is I'm admitting defeat. I feel like I have no power and no choice, but to just, it is what it is. And to me, that feels even more defeating. And to have to go through this process of then analyzing everything, I'm already up in my head and in my emotions. And so when I say, let them, I feel like I'm now taking power back because I'm operating consistently with the most fundamental law about human nature, which is that there's only three things you can control in life.

30:59Only three. You can control what you think about something. You can control what you do or don't do. And you can control how you respond to the feelings that are rising up. That's it. Those are the only three things that you have in your control. And so there's something about the smugness because I think there's a presumption on your part that the average person in a situation that either hurts you or that makes you worried or that is stressing you out or that is overwhelming you, that the average person can actually pull together the intellectual energy to unpack the whole thing while they're actually in a stressed out or hurt state.

31:39And I can't do that. And so there's something about saying, let them, that is like a sledgehammer to my nervous system. It's almost like me saying to myself, Mel, there are things in life that you can control and there are things that are not. Any psychologist will tell you, when you put energy into something you can't control, like other people and what they're doing or what they're thinking and feeling, it's only gonna stress you out. And so when I say let them, it's like this slap across the face where I'm giving myself this reality check that, Mel, let them. And if it's smugness that helps me detach so that I can then say the second part and refocus on what control I have, I'll take it.

32:30because otherwise I'm sitting in stress, pissed off about the traffic, or I am demoralized because I'm single and everybody that I continue to date is treating me in ways that makes me feel bad and I'm up in my head going, should I let it go? Are they just this? Am I being too clingy? No, let them show you who they are. Let them ghost you. Let them text you and not ask you out on a date. Let them reveal who they are and where you stand in their life based on their behavior. Let them, let them, let them. Because if you wanna take responsibility for your life, you have to detach from what other people are doing.

33:07And you have to stop trying to control and change other people. And you gotta pull that energy back so that you can focus on what you can control in life, which is what you think, what you do or don't do, and what you do with your feelings. That's it, that's all you got. And that's the let me part. And so I will take smugness if it gets me out of a stress response. I will take superiority if it helps me pull myself out of this swirl of insecurity because I've been dating people that treat me like garbage. I'll take that because I need to stop giving power to other people's behavior and to their opinions and to their moods and to their immaturity and to their expectations.

33:46And I got to pull that power and that time and energy back so that I can actually focus on the things that are within my control. And I said, you know, this is about taking responsibility for your life. And if you look at the word responsibility, it's the ability to respond.

34:12So I just got back from South by Southwest, which is this incredible conference held in Austin every year, where I had the privilege of sharing the stage with my friend, Baratunde Thurston, for this panel on the art of interviewing and why long form conversation still matters in our bite-sized content world. And it was super fun. And Austin, of course, is just great. One of my favorite places to visit, the food, the people, the energy, Barton Creek, Town Lake, I love it there. But this time I didn't stay in a hotel like I've done in the past. I stayed in an Airbnb, this fantastic house that I shared with members of the Voicing Change team, which made such a huge difference in the whole experience, allowing us to connect better, share our experiences, and really deepen the richness of the conference in this beautiful, more communal setting rather than all being separated in boxy, nondescript rooms.

35:06And all of this left me thinking about how our living spaces can serve multiple purposes, especially when we travel, and how Airbnb is this very cool and practical way to share your space when it makes sense for your situation. The extra income from hosting can actually help fund these enriching experiences, which feels like a pretty smart way to think about it. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. Ah, spring. Spring is in the air. The days are getting longer. with that light lingering ever so longer every single day into the evenings. I got to say my outdoor training, my trail time, my commingling with nature.

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39:22so the goal is to recognize your lack of control over other people but if you're saying let them with a degree of smugness you're still allowing your emotional state to be controlled by them because your smugness is directly related to their behavior and if you're weaponizing let them from some place of like, well, let them go do it and they'll find out, like fuck around and find out. I'm like, I'm over here and I'm just waiting. You're still captured by what those other people are doing, right? The real goal, like the end point of this is to be in those situations and inhabit like total neutrality.

40:04Well, you can't get there until you detach from your emotions. Sure, sure. And so if you are feeling injured or smug or judgy, you already feel that way. And if let them just amplifies that because it helps you get out of putting it all over there, then I'm down for it. But it is dangerous to only say let them because what you will find if all you do is cross your arms and say, well, let them do this and let them do that and let them do the other thing is you'll sit in the superiority. And if you are trying to use this theory and it's not working, I got news for you. It's because you're actually not saying, let me.

40:45Let me remind myself that in any situation, whether it's because, you know, we just got this interesting thing from somebody. Every single day I have somebody on the team look across all of social media and we screenshot all kinds of public comments and reviews. And then it's a roundup that gets sent to our entire team every day of the impact of the podcast episodes, the social, the books, all of it so that you can see in real time individuals around the world, what they're saying and how the thing has helped specifically. And so there was a guy that wrote to us that this was just yesterday who, and I can show it to you, who said, you know, I cannot thank you enough for the let them theory because I am getting married to my boyfriend and my father is like deeply Irish Catholic and he disapproves.

41:35And he wrote me this long letter. And in the past, I would have erupted in anger and smugness, and I probably would have cut him out of my life. And he said, thanks to the let them theory, I said, let him. Let him believe what he believes. Let him be who he is. My dad's lived experience is his lived experience. He is allowed to feel how he feels. He's allowed to have the opinions that he has. He's allowed to have his vision for his life and to be disappointed that it doesn't match up. So I need to let him. And he said, saying it created space between what my father wrote, which in the past would have like just split my heart into.

42:27And it gave me this space where two things can be true at once. You can have somebody say things that are hurtful and even bigoted, and you can know deep down they're still trying to figure out how to love you. And you can understand that somebody has very offensive opinions, and you are still deep down trying to figure out how to love them. and when he said let him it created space to give his father the grace of having his own experience and his own opinions and not making it your job to take it all on and he said within two days I had the peace to basically be able to write him and say dad I love you we do not see this the same way, my relationship with God is good.

43:25And we are still getting married and I hope you will come. And so that's the let me part. Let me decide how to respond to people in a way that's aligned with my values without actually feeling the need to change them. Because what's interesting, we've all experienced this, is that anybody that tries to get you to change your mind or to push you to do something or who's worried about you or is constantly giving you suggestions. We do this with our adult kids a lot, right? We think we're motivating. We think we're caring. We think we're loving. None of this actually creates motivation to change.

44:04In fact, it does the opposite. It creates resistance to changing because my worry and my opinion and my pushing you and my like helpful suggestions that maybe you should study a little more and get off the Xbox if you want to do better in school as if your kid who's struggling in school hasn't freaking thought of that. That doesn't actually motivate anybody. It actually pushes them to push back because you're pushing up against their need to control themselves. People change when they're ready to do the work to change and not a second before. And so this example, Rich, if it organized smugness in this dude to be like, let him.

44:44Let him be a bigoted asshole who does not support me in living my life and being the person that I am and loving who I choose to love. Let him. If smugness is what's required to take a step back and not react so that you can then collect yourself and go, well, let me choose how I'm gonna respond to this. And in controlling the response, you can act with compassion and grace. And by creating space, Now what you've done with a human being, based on all the neuroscience, all the experts that have been on your show and my show will tell you, when you create that space for somebody to come to their own conclusions and you keep showing up aligned with your values, a funny thing happens.

45:25People start to move toward you because you've given them the space to. And that's what this is about. That's what this is about. And when you're dealing with people that are very challenging, whether they have a narcissistic personality style or you're in a relationship with somebody who's treating you poorly, let them isn't about allowing people to walk all over you. They're already doing it. They're already doing it. So the let me piece is the personal responsibility piece. This is your opportunity to make a conscious decision about how you're gonna respond. What is the boundary you're going to establish?

46:02are you going to stay in this friendship or is it better to walk away? Like there's an agency to that. 100 % and I'm reminding you of it. And the other thing about let them that's really important is that when you say let them, you're forcing yourself to see somebody as they are and as they aren't, probably for the first time in your life. Because one of the most kind of, I think self-destructive things that we do to ourselves is people in our lives, people's behavior tells you the truth. Stop watching what people say and watch their actions. Their behavior tells you how they feel about you, whether or not you're a priority.

46:38And what we do to ourselves that is self-destructive is we go up into our heads and we live in the potential and the fantasy versus actually being able to live in the reality of who you're dealing with. So when you say let them, and you're talking about your narcissistic personality style and your mom, let her be who she is because she's not changing. and what's torturing you is your hope she will. But what you've missed this entire time is you brace and you wish and you hope is that if you wanna change the relationship with your mom, she's not changing it, you are. So when you say let her, let her be who she is, let her triangulate, let her roll her eyes, let her make it all about her, let her never ask me a question, let her always be in a pissy mood, whatever it may be.

47:28Now you know who you're dealing with. and then you say, let me decide what I'm gonna put my time and energy into, how much time, how much energy, because let me remind myself, I can leave any conversation, any dining room table, any text chain, any relationship, any interview, any date, any time I choose to. And so saying let them actually forces you to accept people as they are instead of gaslighting yourself. Yeah, all of this is rooted in this deep desire that we all have to control the world, right? Or this illusion that we have that capacity. And it drives this obsession that so many of us have with what other people are thinking, what they're doing, how they're reacting.

48:16And the self-obsession piece plays into this because basically, part of the illusion is that you think everybody's thinking about you, they're talking about you behind your back and every kind of interaction that you have that isn't so great is about something you must have done. Like it's all self-centered, right? What have you learned or discovered about this kind of self-obsession that we have and this deep rooted desire to kind of be in control or to get the world to kind of conform to our idea of what it should be? Well, I have two things to say about this. One, you're never gonna get rid of this fundamental need for control.

48:56It's part of the hard wiring. And understanding that everybody has it will also make you understand why the way that you've been dealing with relationships and the world at large is backfiring. And so there's a huge difference between seeking control and actual power. And here's the headline that I've discovered by saying, let them and let me now for two years straight. It's this, if you feel overwhelmed or tired or stressed out or lonely, or you are not achieving the things that you wanna achieve, or you're not as happy as you want to be. The problem isn't you. The problem is the power that you're giving to other people, to their thoughts, to their emotions, to their expectations, to their moods.

49:39And you don't have to live like that. Your time and energy is the single most valuable resource you have in your life. How you spend your time, what you pour your energy into, it is what your life is. And what I discovered by saying, let them and let me and understanding the difference between control and true power is that I was controlling the wrong thing. I had life reversed. See, I thought I'd be happy if you liked me, Rich. I thought that if I navigated my life based on my kids' moods or my husband's moods or my parents' expectations, that was the way that I would feel more in control. But here's the joke that we all need to stop, like to accept and like kind of laugh at ourselves and then change how we live our lives.

50:28There's one thing you'll never be able to control and that's another person. And yet we've organized our entire lives around ensuring that other people are happy or that they think a certain thing or they're in a good mood or that you've met their expectations. And here's what I've learned. When you actually stop giving your power to other people's opinions and to their moods and to their expectations of you. And you take the power back and you say, well, let me focus on what I think about myself. Let me focus on what my values are and what my intention is. And let me act in a way that is aligned with that as best as I can.

51:04And let me actually learn how to respond to my own emotions like a fucking adult. Instead of vent texting at everybody or pouting in the corner or gossiping or bitching or taking it out on other people, let me be the mature adult here and let me work on this. When you actually put your time and energy there, a funny thing happens. All the other stuff takes care of itself. Oh my God, Rich. Like when you're proud of yourself, you actually don't think much about what other people think. When you are kind of focused every day on just doing little things that make you proud of yourself or that are aligned with the things that you care about, you're not worried about what other people's expectations are.

51:45If you screw up and hurt somebody's feelings, it's not like World War III is broken out. You literally just know your intentions so you can take responsibility for the impact it had and apologize and move on. Like, it doesn't become this noose around your neck. And you don't feel this sense that you're responsible for everybody in your life. Like even last night, yesterday we had a really long day and my daughter and I worked together and we were having dinner and I kind of snapped at her. And then we got into this little thing and we were all sitting in a booth and somebody said on this side of the booth, just let her be upset with you.

52:29What a beautiful thing. Just let my adult daughter have a moment where she's annoyed with me. Why do I have to fix this? I don't. she is allowed to have feelings. She's allowed to be disappointed. She's allowed to be pissed off at me. And if I give her the space to have those feelings, then I'm actually recognizing the power that she has to process her own experience in life. And it immediately starts to disappear. It's unbelievable how we have taken on the responsibility of the world. And in doing so, we've not only burdened ourselves, and robbed ourselves of time and energy. But we've also robbed other people in our lives, our children, our partners, our parents, from the experience of actually facing life and feeling what they need to feel and understanding that, wow, like nobody needs to step in and rescue somebody, stand by their side and support them.

53:29But, you know, I also can see that I would rush in and try to solve everything for my kids, which only made their anxiety worse when they were little because every time I stepped in and I wouldn't let them struggle or I wouldn't let them have the uncomfortable feeling, when I step in and just try to take it away, I'm actually communicating, I don't actually believe you can handle this, which makes it worse. Of course. This was a difficult lesson for you to learn. How can you tell? We've known each other a long time. You're like my husband. You guys are like chill. Yeah. Well, one thing that we share is the difference in what our kind of areas of the bathroom look like.

54:05Like I'm like your husband, like very organized. Everything is very like, you know, everything is like to an OCD level. And, you know, my wife's like an explosion. It's just all over the place. And this is like an ongoing thing. Like that, you know, challenges my acceptance. You know, all of this, right? You can't let it go. So you got a letter, dude. Listen, we've been together 25. I made peace with that a long time ago. Like, yeah, I let her, I let her. And then I control my little environment. I just don't want it encroached on. We do that though, you know? I know. It has, yeah, the chaos has a tendency to metastasize.

54:39But the interesting thing is we're also both like former lawyers. And there's something about going to law school and learning how to craft an argument, learning how to prosecute a case or defend your position that gives you a sense of empowerment over other people. Like, oh, like if I just get this argument perfect, then I can control the reaction of other people. Your entire career is based on this, right? And your skill at being able to do that. And so there's like an unwiring that you have to do to kind of have a whole different philosophy because you can certainly influence people. That's different from controlling them.

55:27But if you're trained in the art of argument, you know, of course you're gonna, you know, believe that you have this superpower to get people to do what you want them to do. Well, you know, I'll tell you, you said it was a hard lesson. It's interesting that you said that because I think it was a hard life. And the let them theory is an easy lesson because I was working against the laws of human nature. I was pushing against - You're rowing up river. Correct. And so one of the reasons why this thing has exploded is number one, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. Like it exists in a huge legacy of ancient wisdom and therapeutic modalities.

56:13And when you say let them and let me, it feels familiar to you. It's something that you know is true because this kind of struggle that we have between control and true power and what we can control and what we can't control and our desire to change other people, we've been all struggling with this since the beginning of time. We all have somebody in our life that we're worried about, that we just wish would take better care of themselves. We wish that they would study harder. We wish that they would date people that would actually treat them better. And all of this worry and concern and suggestions and all this stuff, it's not actually motivating the other person's desire to change.

56:52In fact, what I've learned the hard way until I learned the let them theory is I was actually creating resistance to the change because I was trying, I know better. I'm doing it out of love and loving people and wanting the best for people isn't the issue. That's a beautiful thing. How you're going about it is what was backfiring for most of us. Sure, it's exhausting. Yes. Right? Like I'm the only thing that's keeping this whole thing together. And if I don't like exert myself in all these different ways, it's all gonna collapse. So this compulsion around control is really a mask for fear, right?

57:26The fear of what might happen if I don't show up and say all these things and do all these things, it's all gonna fall apart. Fundamentally, everybody's gonna die a tragic death. Like, you'll just future trip on all the catastrophes that are going to occur. And in the process, you're exhausting yourself, you're stressed out. And so let them is like this catharsis that relieves the stress and helps you to realize like not only are you not in control, like you're incapable of control and there's like a fear of like, well, if I let go and I let them, like you have to like cross that bridge and have an experience where you did it and everything actually ended up better than it would have been to like, oh, I see now and now I feel like I can invest in this a little bit more.

58:14See, I think it's a redirection. I'm not saying you're not in control. Tell me more what that means. Well, I'm not saying you're not in control. I'm saying you're trying to control the wrong thing. So you can't ever get rid of the need for control because it's a hardwired survival instinct. I need to feel in control of my decisions, what I'm gonna eat, my future. It gives me this sense of safety. But in seeking that sense of safety, which we all deserve in life, you have to understand what's actually within your control. And every one of us knee jerks and goes out there. And so like a question I've been getting a lot is about the current state of the world.

58:49Like regardless of where you're living, you're probably feeling this sense of what the hell is happening. The headlines are making everybody terrified, like the thing, the rise of AI and the concern about jobs, the economy, like everything is in complete disarray. Again, the world is engineered to steal your time, your energy, your focus, your joy. People make money on it. That's why they want it. And so the illusion is that you have no power. And what I'm here to say is stop looking out there because if you don't like what's happening, don't you dare get gaslit into thinking you have no power.

59:30because you need the time and energy that you're spending doom scrolling and looking at the headlines and gossiping with friends and feeling all worried to freaking call the attorney general and to get involved in your community. And the more time that you waste out there gossiping about crap or worrying about stuff or feeling helpless, you're not helpless, but you're going to feel helpless if all you do is give your power to the things outside of you. You got to go let them because the press conference has already happened. Shit's already spent inside. AI is already here. And then I gotta go, let me remind myself that I actually do have power.

1:00:09There are things I can do. And one of the things I need to do is protect myself from draining my energy by doom scrolling for six hours because I need to actually redirect it and focus it on what I can control. You still have to be detached from the outcome of those actions. You call the attorney general, you have no control over - Let them. What that is going to reap, right? Like you can't be like, well, I'll call him and then this has to happen or I'm never gonna make that call again. You make the call, you move on. Yes, you make it again if you want. Here's one for you. Tell me, let's go Rich.

1:00:46When you look back, when you kind of reflect back on the arc of your career, you're in this incredible place right now. How do you make sense of that? And I guess what I'm getting at here is, do you feel like there's a destiny aspect to this or a fate? Because I know you well enough to know that you worked very hard to earn all of the things and the kind of privileged place that you now occupy, but you're also humble enough to know that it wasn't just because you busted your ass, like there's something more going on. There's something much more going on. So I want to get to like a deeper place, a more spiritual place of all of this.

1:01:28Because I think from my recovery perspective, part of the letting go and the surrender is like allowing for the mystical and the magical, like you turn it over to a higher power that has your best interest at heart and can do things that you can't. Like that is part of what the surrender is. Yes, you take responsibility for your own actions and you have power over how you comport yourself and your behavior, et cetera. But on some level, there's a humbling, like a humility to all of it to say, I am not the center of the universe. Not only am I letting go of trying to control other people, on some level, I'm also relinquishing control over like the greater arc of my life.

1:02:11I show up for it. I do the things. I work hard. And then I let go of the results and I allow myself to be guided and I make myself open and available to what I can't even conjure or imagine right now. Because if you're holding on like, I'm Mel Robbins and I'm going to do this podcast in this book and here's where it's going to take me, like you're back to square one with the whole thing. Yeah, no, I don't think about it at all like that. Like I think there's a very simple explanation for the arc and the arc that you're talking about is that, I mean, all of a sudden we've unseated Joe Rogan and for three weeks straight, we've been the number one podcast in the world at the same time that we're number one on Amazon, number one on Audible, number one on every book list.

1:02:54It's one of the single most successful nonfiction book launches in history. And why is this happening? Why are people at this moment in time excited about a book and an idea that could help them? I'll tell you why. It's because when the world is very dark... And like, I just think you just have to like be a person that glows in the dark. and I see the things that I'm doing right now. The image that comes to mind is like being a lighthouse and casting out a light into the darkness. And, you know, I do think there's something way bigger happening and I'm just a part of it. And it's why I keep saying that this idea, it's not a new idea.

1:03:51It's something that we know is true. It has roots in the most ancient wisdoms and spiritual teachings that have given people comfort and given people encouragement and empowered them since the beginning of time. And I think the world needs to be reminded of this right now, that no matter how dark things get, there is light inside of you and there is power inside of you. And there's that beautiful Professor Margaret Mead quote about how, you know, don't ever doubt your ability to change history because it's only been a few committed citizens who ever have. I've got it wrong, but that's the gist of it.

1:04:34And so I feel this sense, this vibrational energy, that this is just part of a bigger thing that is happening. That when there is such public overwhelm and disinformation and fear and chaos and just stress that is very real for people. There has to be a corresponding message of hope and light and empowerment. There just has to. And so I feel that I keep having this image of being on a plane and the plane is going 500 miles an hour and I'm way up in the air. and I feel just the currents of change with me and I feel tons of allies and ancestors like you and people that throughout history have been a source of light in dark times.

1:05:36And my job is to sit on that plane and let the plane fly and to be a passenger on this ride and to sit in the chair and be present as this is all happening and sip my tea and look out the window and remind myself this actually isn't about me. It's about all of us.

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1:09:12You're like this channel that has been chosen to deliver this message. Yes. You know, that's how I look at it. Like you're badass, but there is something more going on. And what you have to share coincides with a very particular moment in which it's most needed. And whether you had a conscious awareness of that or it's something deeper, like you're the person for right now in so many different ways, but in ways that you couldn't have choreographed, right? Like you showed up for your life and now you're in this situation. And that's where I'm allowed to kind of like, see this more broadly, like there's a grander play happening at the moment.

1:09:56Yeah, that's what Oprah said to me too. And that allows me to like have humility and I think I can find awe and wonder and all these other kind of like beautiful human experiences in that. But a key piece, I'm gonna go back to recovery speak again. There's a phrase that goes, you can't transmit something you haven't got. So you can be a pretender to the throne and use all the words and tell people what they should and shouldn't do and this is what this says, et cetera. But if you're not walking that talk yourself, if you don't fully inhabit that and kind of demonstrate whatever that ethos is in your own personal life, you are not going to be able to affect people with that message.

1:10:41Because people know whether unconsciously or not, like they know who's for real and who isn't. And you're certainly for real. But I think about that a lot. It's about the alignment between your behavior and your words. And I think that's a key piece that's at play here right now. But you mentioned this word lighthouse and I love that. It reminds me of when I had Adam Grant on the podcast and he wrote this whole book about like the different styles that we all have to kind of influence other people. there's the preacher and the politician and the scientist. I think there's one more, I forget. And he's like going through all of these.

1:11:23I've told this story before, but, and I'm not identifying with any of them. And he just assumes, well, I'm, oh, the prosecutor. That's the other one. Like, oh, you must be the prosecutor. You're a lawyer. And I'm like, not really. Like, that's not really my vibe. Like, that's why I left the law. Like, I don't think I'm very good at that. and I had heard somebody in an AA meeting taking a cake for a birthday. This was many, many years ago and he talked about being a lighthouse and I never forgot about it. And I thought like, that's what I wanna be. And I think that's where my skills are best suited.

1:11:57Like I wanna live my life in a certain way. I wanna stand in the light and like broadcast a signal and the people that resonate with that will come And I'm not trying to recruit anyone. I'm not trying to convince anybody. And I'm not attached to whether anybody does anything with whatever I say or don't say. And I think there's real power in that. Like your power is like concentrated, but it's not needy. It just is. There's no doubt that you are, because if I look at your family and all four of your kids and your wife, you're all that because that's what art is. Same more. Well, what you're doing with this podcast is the same thing that I'm trying to do with my work.

1:12:41Every episode is like a little speck of light being sent out into the world. And then somebody finds it. And then when they share it, the light gets a little brighter. And when they share it, somebody then turns toward the lighthouse. And when you create music or you create art or you create ceremony or you create content that actually opens up something inside of people and reminds them of the power that they have over their thoughts, over their energy, over their time. You actually liberate people and you free them from this like moment in time, particularly now where we feel so heavy and overwhelmed and we're constantly living in our phones and feeling like all the power's out there and nothing is in here and it's just not true.

1:13:37And so I see you doing the exact same thing. And I see that as a father and as parents, you have created a family that transmits that same consciousness, light, energy, art, whatever you wanna call it. And I really appreciate you reflecting all that back to me. And I can tell you, I know now why I have never had press ever. I know now why I had never met Oprah Winfrey, even though I have admired her and followed her work for my entire life. It's because it was all being held for this. Yeah, you were being prepared. Correct. You weren't ready yet. No. And now you can really fully embody the ideas and in such a way that that resonance is like vibrating at a different pitch.

1:14:29I just literally believe in the goodness of people. And I also choose to believe that 85 % of us or more actually believe the same things. And I also think that if you come from a place of really good intent and you are a kind person and you are able, and I've become able to let people be who they are and who they're not, and I've become able to create space for people to change and to move towards change without judging them, I have, through saying let them and let me, learned the difference between control and illusions of control, as you said, and actually where the true power lies. And it's liberating.

1:15:20It's actually liberating. I cannot believe how much time and energy I wasted in my life. Just focused on meaningless bullshit, things that didn't matter, things I had no control over, how much stress I caused myself, what a pain in the ass and walking red flag I was in relationships because I couldn't handle my own emotions. And so to have this little tool, let them and let me, which taps into all of this wisdom, and it's like, when you use it, it's extraordinary. And I love that people are excited, not about escaping their life, but actually turning toward it and learning how to tap into that power.

1:16:06That's what excites me. What excites me is that people are excited about a book. We did a book signing last night. There were scalpers selling tickets. That's so crazy. And people bought them. At like Barnes and Noble? Like outside Barnes and Noble? Yes, I've never seen it happen before. There were people selling scalped tickets for$300 and people were buying them. That's crazy. And to me, like I could see that, like I'm a big fantasy reader. Like I could see that for ACOTAR or like any of the other big books, but for self-help, for philosophy, I mean, that's the other thing. If you had written this book, it'd be in leadership, not in self-help.

1:16:43But as a woman, it's a self-help book, even though it's number one in business. But I just am so excited that in this day and age, people are excited about a freaking book that is going to help you. And also the book is written in a way that I'm literally, I mean, every story in there, I'm the asshole. So like when you read the stories, you're going to go, oh, I'm just like Mal or oh, my God, I'm like her poor family. And so then as you read it, you're not only getting something for yourself, but because it's really a book about your relationship to other people, how you've made them a problem and how to stop doing that.

1:17:22And also how to use this to actually improve friendship, how to navigate love and choose and create the love you deserve instead of chasing the potential of something that's just not there. As you do, how you can support people through struggle without forcing change on them. That people read it and then are like, oh my God, my sister needs to read it. And the number of families that are showing up at these book events who have all read the book, I mean, you'll use this more with your family. We just went on a vacation for my dad's 80th, you know, one of these where everybody's got the t-shirts that match and you're in the van and you're driving around and everybody's like, let them, let them, no controlling where everybody was.

1:18:02It was the best family vacation we've ever head because we could just let people be who they are and still all be together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. In this process of just letting people be who they are, what's been helpful to me in practicing that is to understand that that behavior that's irritating you so much, there's a reason why they're engaging in that behavior. And on some level, it is doing something for them. It is solving a problem for them or they wouldn't be doing it. And you can go down the rabbit hole of why, but then you're just kind of too caught up in other people, right? You don't want to do that.

1:18:44But the ripple here is that conversely, your negative reaction to that behavior, your judginess or irritation is also doing something for you. Yes. And it's impacting. The thing that I think a lot about, Rich, is that If you think about a family, right? It's usually the person with the most challenging behavior that dictates the family. It's like, I imagine like a spider web and if you're out in the morning and the dew's on it, you can see the web. And if you've got somebody with very immature, challenging, demonstrative, whatever, abusive, emotional behavior, them walking to the room is like tap, tap, tap on that web.

1:19:24And one of the reasons why they have so much power is because we give it to them. We brace them. We judge, we wish they were different. We cower. And what I've come to realize, because we've all had the experience of navigating people's moods, navigating people's BS, navigating people's like just intolerable, inconsiderate stuff, is that by doing that, you give it power. But the converse is also true. See, the most calm, peaceful, and grounded person actually has more power. And when you realize that, and you realize that, stop waiting for your family to change. The family dynamic changes when you change.

1:20:08You're the most powerful person in your family. Because if you shift your energy and you bring in the let them theory and you let your family be exactly who they are, as they are and as they aren't, and you don't bring in the bracing, and I'm not talking about being kumbaya, I'm talking about you're non-reactive. You just don't play the game. your energy is so powerful, you shift the whole dynamic because that web is dependent on everybody playing. And so when you go in and you're not like upset or jealous or annoyed about all the stuff that's always been there, and you just let them be who they are, and you get to choose what's my relationship with my family, how much time do I bring, what's my energy gonna be?

1:20:51There's this saying in leadership that leaders bring the weather. Will you bring the weather in your family? You want it to be better? stop waiting for them. You're the one who has the power to change it. Yeah, because you're opting out of the game. But I think there's a difference between leaning back and being like, well, I'm just letting them, you know, versus you're back to neutrality and equanimity. Like if you're just in your power and unflappable, you're not playing that game. And then suddenly it's like the game doesn't work if you're not playing. You need multiple players in order for it to like operate, right?

1:21:25Correct. And there is, you know, real power in that. And I think the other thing is when you begin to practice this and you feel that discomfort because it's a different behavior and you're like, why am I so agitated by letting this person do it? Like, that's your opportunity of discovery. Like, okay, well, let's look at this agitation. Like, what's behind this? What's driving this? And then you can go on a whole adventure to unravel, you know, all of those knots and understand what led you to that place, why you become so agitated in that context. And then a whole world opens up from there. Well, the coolest thing about it is that when you first start saying, let them and let me, you'll notice that the fastest way to start using it is to actually manage stress because life today is death by a thousand cuts.

1:22:15Whether it's the long lines, the traffic, the inconsiderate behavior, the endless video meetings at work and then no time to work, the crazy schedules of our kids, the more you start to go, let them, let them, let them, you'll realize that you've allowed long lines at the grocery store to piss you off and drain your energy. Why do they only have two cash registers open? What the hell are those people doing over there talking? And now all of a sudden you think you can run the grocery store better than anybody else. And now all of a sudden your energy's all stressed out. And then you wonder, why do you go home and snap at your kids?

1:22:43Well, because you allowed the grocery store and the traffic and Zoom meetings at work to drain your life force. And now you're bringing that stress to your family, which is why you can't actually chill and let go. And so when you put up this boundary and say, let them, let them, let them, and you protect yourself from the world at large and just the things that are going to happen, airport travel is going to be stressful. Let the lines be long, let the jerk behind you cough and not wear a mask, let this, like, just let them. And let me just recognize the value of my time and energy and actually protect it from this stuff and let me take the actions that help me stay healthy or keep me de-stressed.

1:23:27And so when you now have lower stress, because you've been protecting yourself using this let them theory from the world stressing you out, you actually do have the capacity to have better self-awareness and better emotional management. You know, one of the other things that I discovered in really digging into this, and this is something I also learned from my therapist, Ann Davin, is this thing that has been so helpful, which is I actually believe that every adult you see is just an eight-year-old in a big body. That's it. You alluded to this, that everybody's behavior that's irritating or challenging is just a coping mechanism that's worked for years.

1:24:06Well, I literally go, there is an eight-year-old in that body because nobody actually knows how to be emotionally mature because it's not something you're born with. It's a skill that you have to want to learn and that you have to practice. And none of our parents knew how to do it. So you didn't get it in your childhood. I don't care how calm and stoic you may be. Learning how to recognize your emotions and actually feel them and then understand how to process them in a calm manner without like, again, taking it out on other people That is a super, I didn't learn how to do this until I was 54.

1:24:47I'm not kidding. And I'm still working on it and I still do the rage text every once in a while. I'm still eight most of the time. Yes, well, that's fine. It's my big flare up, like the thing that I just am so challenged by. When Julie puts her stuff on your sink. No, I've learned, we're fine. It's like customer service on the phone. Like I just cannot, I have Julie make all those calls now because I cannot control myself. I get so off kilter and agitated. And the reason why now I've discovered my theory or I believe is, you know, it brings me right back to being eight years old and being infantilized by a mother who was over controlling and domineering and, you know, held all this power over what I could and couldn't do and was constantly disappointed in me.

1:25:40Yeah, yes. It goes right, like I'm back in that space where I feel cornered and I can't escape. Yes, yes. And then you take it out on some person that is working three jobs to pay their bills and they're sitting in like a call center and - Where's your flare up? Mine, anything that's like work related, that's like inefficient. And I feel like I'm a racehorse and a starting gate and all the other gates have opened and I'm like this. The worst thing that I do is, but I don't do it much anymore. And this happens because? I don't actually know why. I don't know what the, I think it has to do with not being able to trust people.

1:26:26Like that I thought something got handled. I know I've said it 15 times and it's all up to me. Oh, that's what it is. It's like this sense that no matter how much help I asked for or how clear that I am, eventually it's just all up to me. And so I've done so much work that it doesn't happen as much. And there's only one aspect if I'm like thinking about the business that's still like, ah, and it's not because it's not working. Clearly things are working, but the ends don't justify the means because it's a very stressful work process. And because the process doesn't work, it ends up on my, like impacting me.

1:27:08Sure, so control issues rooted in trust issues. Yes. I'm the only person who can do this right. I can't rely on anybody. Yes. Goes right back to attachment theory and attachment disorders. Yeah, I'm alone, I'm alone, like I can't. You were left on your own, you couldn't trust anybody as a young person or you had to figure it out on your own or you were let down by other people who made promises they couldn't fulfill for you. And this is how you were wired at eight years old or whatever it is. And it still plays out. So emotional maturity and the thing that I practice is when the volcano starts to erupt inside me, I have to say, let them.

1:27:54And sometimes I have to say it 25 times a day. And then there will be that breaking point where then I hit the text to my partner and I'm like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Like, you don't deserve that. I'm now quick to apologize and I do not send them. I actually never send them to my husband anymore, ever. I've gotten complete control of that. I am way better at nailing my tone. So if I have something that comes out short because I'm hungry or angry or I'm frustrated by something and then I turn and I say something to somebody on my team or one of my kids and I'm like, oh, sorry, I didn't mean that tone with you, I'm really sorry.

1:28:30Like it is like razor thin between the thing that I used to do day in and day out and actually catching it when it happens. Because I don't want to take that shit out on other people. Like it's not fair. And so it's not their job to manage me. It's not the world's job to be perfect for me. It's my job to learn how to manage my emotions in a way that is respectful to other people, that doesn't silence me. But I talk a lot about how with myself, don't ever silence what you need to say, but pay a lot of attention to how you're saying it. Because the tone and the energy and the emotion really matters, especially with your family, especially with your friends, with everybody, honestly.

1:29:23But who wants to do that when I can just point fingers and talk shit about people? You can. And then you're gonna die of a heart attack because you're chronically stressed out and you're gonna feel powerless in a world where you actually have a lot of power. And you're gonna miss out on a lot of your life because you have put all of the power over there, which is why it's pissing you off and why you're frustrated. And so I think that this has, in terms of the emotional immaturity, looking at somebody that's eight years old, especially somebody that has like very challenging behavior, what happens is you don't fear people.

1:29:56You actually feel a level of compassion for them. Like if you look at somebody who is passive aggressive, that's a child who pouts. If you look at somebody in your family that gives you the silent treatment, which is very common in our parents' generation, you just stop talking. you punish the person by removing yourself and then two days later you pretend like nothing ever happened highly emotionally destructive like behavior to a child in particular but if you have an adult in your life that ghosts you or that gives you the silent treatment that is punishing you because they can't have a conversation that's a little difficult or they're having emotions like disappointment or anger or frustration and they have to punish you that's an eight-year-old That's an eight-year-old who pouts because an eight-year-old that goes in the corner and pouts, what are they doing?

1:30:49They're overwhelmed with their emotion. So they go away hoping the adult comes over to soothe them. That's exactly what adults do. And you get to choose. So you're gonna let them because you're not a parent to another adult. It is not your job to manage somebody else's emotions. You let them do what they're gonna do and recognize, okay, that's a person that's eight years old and only they can do the work to learn a different way to cope with their emotions. And now let me choose, how do I wanna respond to this? Am I going to spend a little less time with this person? Am I gonna go over and choose to sue them because I know this person's story and I'm just wanna facilitate something here, but you get to choose.

1:31:36You don't have to be the victim of their behavior. And it's important that that choice is divorced from some sense of how it's gonna change their behavior. It won't change your behavior. Because it won't, right? No, no, it won't. You have all these stories around how you've practiced this in your own life, your son's prom, your daughter's breakup, things like that. But I wanna up the stakes a little bit. Imagine a parent who has a teen who is in the throes of heroin addiction and is refusing help. It's a very difficult situation to know what to do and what not to do. The parental instinct is to rush in, solve the problem, get them in a treatment center, do whatever it takes to prevent the worst case scenario.

1:32:27At the same time, you know better than anyone that you can't will that change upon that person. If somebody doesn't wanna get sober, they're not gonna get sober. And so you have to kind of allow them to hit their bottom or have the experience they need to have for them to have the epiphany where they feel like they need and want to take control of their life. But the stakes are so high, like we're really dealing with life or death here. Yes. And no parent wants to have the experience of like, well, I'm always allowing them to have their divine moment. No, of course not. And then they overdosed and died.

1:33:07Correct. So I think there's a huge difference and we draw it in the book between kids and adults. When you're the parent, you're still the one that's flying the plane and you have to make hard decisions. And when it's an issue of self-destructive, dangerous behavior, I personally believe you have an obligation to step in because you're dealing with somebody whose brain is not fully developed. Now, I need to qualify everything I'm saying by just saying very plainly, I've never been in that situation. I am not a psychiatrist or an addiction specialist, but I spoke to a number of them and quote a number of them.

1:33:50There's like 52 experts quoted in this book who contributed to the book. And there is one child psychologist that's made the biggest difference in my life and that actually wrote a free guide that is available at the end of the book to using the let them theory in situations with parenting, including very challenging situations. And so here's the twist that I want you to think about because it is true. There is a, I can't remember if it was Gabor Mate or if it was Dr. Robert Waldinger who said this in the book that nobody gets sober until drinking is harder than doing the work that you're scared to do and facing the issues that you don't wanna face.

1:34:36And so until it seems that what you're doing is harder, the person's probably not going to get sober. And here's why. The wiring of the human brain is such that we default to what's easy now. And it's also wired to avoid anything that's painful. And so in order to change anything about your life, you have to either have the thing that you're avoiding suddenly seem like the better, easier choice, or you have to make a conscious decision that you want to do the thing that is terrifyingly hard. and no human being makes that decision for anyone else. You know this, nobody gets sober for their kids.

1:35:26They don't get sober for their spouse. They get to a point where they do it for themselves. Not in a sustainable way. I mean, they might do it perfunctorily to get people off their back, but it's not going to last. So understanding that sets you up for this terrifying conundrum, which you've already spoken to, which is you're not going to just let your kid die and you're also not in control of their behavior. And so there is something that you have to do that is, yes, you're going to force certain things because you are the parent and they are a minor and this is life or death, but there's no guarantee it's going to work.

1:36:04And so Dr. Stuart Ablon, who has been practicing as a child psychologist at Mass General Brigham Hospital in Boston, he is the founder of a program called Think Kids. He's written like four bestselling books. He has this incredible approach that works with the let them theory that is not let them and not let me, it's with them. As parents, I've made this mistake and we do this with everybody in our life, but as parents, we presume we know best and we never even stop and ask our kids, what do you think about this? Have you thought about what you wanna do about this? And so Dr. Stuart Ablon has this whole approach that's like, don't be directing the sobriety.

1:36:46Don't be directing the change. Don't be directing, this is the tutor. This is that, this, without first, A, apologizing for all the pressure you feel. This is this thing we write about called the ABC loop, which is again, my attempt to summarize all of the unbelievable body of research around motivation and addiction and all of the research that's been contributed by experts into this very section of the book. you start so that it's an ABC loop. This is a conversation that you're gonna have. First, A, apologize. You have not apologized for all the pressure that you've put on this person, all the judgment, all the shame.

1:37:23You don't think that your kid knows that they have a problem. You don't think that they wanna get sober. You don't think that your kid who's struggling in school isn't trying. Like the mistake that we make as parents and as people is that we actually don't even consider that the hardest working kid in a classroom is the one who's failing. The friend of yours that works the most at their health is the person who's overweight and struggling with it because they think about it all the time. You know, I choose to believe that every person knows when they're giving up on themselves. Every person wants to thrive.

1:37:57They want to be happy. It's not a matter of will. It's almost always a matter of not having the skill or not having the hope that it's gonna work. And so when you come from the place of saying, my kid who's struggling with an addiction or struggling with grades or struggling with friends or struggling with weight, they wanna get better. They know that they're giving up on themselves. There's a deep tension between where you are and what they actually want for their life. They know this. And so you need to switch or consider switching how you approach this, because what you wanna do is acknowledge the tension.

1:38:36And you start by A, apologize. Apologize for the pressure, the judgment, the shame, it must be very difficult for you to feel this. It must be very difficult to be struggling with this. And then A, ask. Ask an open-ended question. How do you feel about where you're at? Have you thought about what you might want to do about this? That's all they think about. And even if they don't say anything, just those two questions excavates the tension that they need to organize the motivation to change. Well, it's an act of compassion. It's the with them. To listen, see, hear them, validate them, to be on their level rather than this parent from above.

1:39:25And I think issues like this get complicated when there's enmeshment issues. Of course. So for example, the parent is kind of self-identifying with the kid's problem. Like this kid's problem is a reflection on me and all of my issues around what people think of me and what are people gonna say about me if I have a kid in rehab or whatever. And yeah, because sometimes the enmeshment issue creates the conditions for the addiction in the first place, right? It's a whole big fucking mess. So the parent has to also be somebody who can, if that's a condition that they have, to be able to recognize that and realize like what's going on with your kid is not about you and the best way for you to help that child is to depersonalize yourself from it and make yourself available.

1:40:15Be with them. Yeah, to be with them on their level. Because it's gonna require an extraordinary amount of work to get better grades, to get sober, to get in better shape, to tap into your motivation if you're a 20 something that feels lost in your life. And if you are already in a situation where there's that standoff, then the way you're approaching it isn't working. And I really believe in Dr. Stuart Ablon's research and the guide that he wrote for the Let Them Theory book on parenting and this with them approach. Because when you're with them, you're actually saying, I first of all wanna hear what you're thinking.

1:40:55I wanna hear what you think you wanna do. And I'm with you in figuring this out, but you're also signaling that you have some agency here. Now, that doesn't mean you're not gonna step in. It doesn't mean you're not gonna make them go to rehab. You know, one of the big levers that parents do have is that you stop paying for things, but nobody wants to pull that trigger, right? So if you've got somebody who has a severe eating disorder and they're refusing to go to inpatient, then you gotta ask yourself, why are you paying for their car? This is from Dr. Robert Waldinger, who said in the book, people need to learn from life.

1:41:33and if you're shielding them from the consequences of their life by paying for their life, then they're not gonna learn from life. Also, that thing that's so hard to look at, that's harder to look at than it is to drink, suddenly the drinking gets a little bit harder. Yes. And it pushes you towards having to look at that thing that you don't wanna look at. My ripple on that is you change when the pain of what you're doing exceeds the fear of the unknown on the other side of that. Like there's some kind of like fulcrum there when you flip over and then you become willing. But again, it's not something that you can, that you can like impose on somebody else.

1:42:19And this idea of allowing people to have their process, I mean, Julie taught me this. She calls it, I've told the story many times, but she calls it like letting people have their divine moment. Like the last thing you wanna do is rob somebody of their divine moment because that could be the thing that catalyzes like a whole different trajectory for their life. And if you interfere and fuck around with that, even if you're of the best of intentions, like to also recognize that that is a great act of love and compassion. You're saying, I trust you and I believe in you and I'm here to support you but I'm on the sidelines, I'm not going to interfere.

1:43:01But like, if you need me, I am here and I see you. Yes, that's the big thing. Beautiful, like that's just such a beautiful thing to give to somebody. I agree because you are saying, I'm always here. I believe that you can do this. And I also know I need to step out of the way a little bit so that you can actually figure out when you're going to do this. because I think one of the hardest things in life is that you're gonna be ready for somebody to heal or get sober or get a new job or like figure out the issues that keep them in bad patterns and relationships before they are. And it's very, very just excruciating to watch somebody that you love self-destruct.

1:43:44I mean, the amount of restraint that it takes to not jump in front of a moving bus to save your kids from self-destructing is most of us don't have it. And in the situation you're talking about, I'm sure I would make a million mistakes out of fear. I would absolutely shove them into rehab. I would want them to never be around the friends. I would do probably the things that the experts say you shouldn't do. But what I have come to actually believe in speaking to so many of these experts that do deal with these situations, that really thinking about this from, at the end of the day, the person is going to have to do the work.

1:44:28So how do I create an environment for healing? How do I stop believing I can force them to do it and I can do it for them, or I know the best way for them to do it? How can I focus on organizing an environment that makes healing possible and then step back and let the person have their process? Yes. I mean, it's probably the most difficult and loving thing that you can do. And either they will or they won't. Let them. But if they do, then it's their idea. And it's the ownership and the agency that comes with like, they're making the decision to do it for themselves. Well, you know, it's interesting because Dr.

1:45:11Stuart Ablon was talking about how his practice was in pediatrics and as his patients have gotten older, what he's seeing is now this huge rise in 20-year-olds that have so much helplessness because they have had a lifetime of parents stepping in and solving all their problems. And now they're out on their own and do not have the skill. It's not a will. People change when they can. And if they haven't changed yet, They can't because they either believe it's not gonna work so they don't have the hope or they are missing a skill that is required for them to change. And I love that framing because it's based in optimism and this belief that people can change.

1:45:59And if they're not changing, for example, that they're struggling in school or they're struggling with friends or they're struggling in some aspect of their life, there is a particular skill or there's some level of hope that's actually missing. And when you think you know the answers and when you kind of come in and you just try to solve everything, you miss the opportunity to identify what skill's missing or you miss the opportunity to actually instill hope because you actually think there is no hope. So I gotta do this for you. Hmm, but on the skill piece, I'm just imagining a scenario like, oh, they just need this skill.

1:46:41I know what that skill is. I see clearly like what they're missing and here's a book. Let me do, you know, then you're like doing that thing again. If you take the with them approach. So doctor, and doctor, you should have him on the show. He's just unbelievable. In his 30 years of research, there are five skills that any child that's labeled a challenge, they're actually not a challenge. They exhibit challenging behavior because they're missing one of five skills in life. And it might be a skill related to executive functioning and language-based learning. And if you can't actually learn in the classroom for eight hours, of course you're gonna exhibit challenging behavior.

1:47:20It might be some skill related to social interaction. Like some kids just don't know that there's a certain amount of spatial distance that people need from you. Otherwise kids think you're weird. And so the skill is literally learning how to walk up to a group of kids and look at feet and position your feet kind of the same distance. And the with them approach is about, what do you wanna do about this? Well, I'd like, I wish people would, I wish I had more friends. Okay, well, what do you think? Like, what do you think you might wanna do? Well, I'm kind of nervous about it. And so really having your arm around them with them in co-creating as you're guiding toward the thing as the expert, what might be the issue.

1:48:06It's pretty cool. isn't it? That is cool. But the piece that, you know, for me is the most resonant is just the idea of kind of eradicating the hierarchy, you know, like, hey, like, how can I help you? You know, like, what do you need? And how can I serve you as opposed to here's what you need to do. And let me tell you the way it is. Uh-huh. Like the let them theory has fundamentally changed my marriage. It's changed my family, not just the, you know, three kids and Chris and I, but my relationship with my parents. It has absolutely turned my life on its head in the best way, because I can see that everybody wants to be thriving.

1:48:49Everybody wants to feel accepted. Everybody wants to feel like somebody gives them the grace of hearing their opinion. Everybody wants to just be able to have their experience. And I didn't realize how often I was stepping on somebody else's emotions or I was giving power to their opinions. Like another very liberating thing about using the let them theory is, you know, the way that I use it is I don't say just let them think what they want. I say, let them think something negative. Let them think something that's not true. Yeah. It's easy to do it when it's in your favor. Yes. So actually saying out loud, let them think something negative.

1:49:33Let them misunderstand me. Say the thing you're actually managing. Let them not like me. Is there a difference with respect to gender when it comes to obsession with what other people are doing or not doing or thinking or saying or our compulsion to control our lives in those awkward ways? I'm not a researcher in this area, but there's a lot of research about the social conditioning of women and people-pleasing and caregiving and the message that women get about it being your job to make sure everybody's okay. But here's what I've come to believe. And this is not some academic study. This is just my lived experience.

1:50:19And it's also the fact that Chris, my husband, his work focuses on men's retreats that he's created. He's also a death doula. And he is getting his degree in spiritual psychology. And so his work is all in working with men. And one of his biggest findings from leading all these retreats and being with so many men at different stages of their life is that men, I'm laughing at myself because we actually got in a fight about it. I said like, what's the biggest takeaway from leading men's retreats for seven years, Chris, he said that men actually feel like they're last on their list, that it's their job to take care of everybody else.

1:51:05I'm like, that's not true. Women feel that way because we're taking, you guys aren't the care, we're, and so we get into this fight. And then I'm like, wait a minute, what if I just take that as fact? What if we're all feeling like we're responsible for everybody else? What if we're all feeling the weight of the world on our shoulders? What if men just feel it in the sense of they have to provide? What if men just feel it in the sense of if you're not working and you're not making money and you're not providing, then you're not worth anything, that your value is in your work. It's not in who you are.

1:51:39And what if women are thinking the same thing, only our version is that we are responsible for everybody's emotional state and making everybody happy, but it's the same burden. I have found that actually just looking at everybody and giving them the grace to believe that we all are so critical of ourselves and we are all so focused on other people's moods and other people's opinions and other people's expectations, and then we turn it back on ourselves, that I personally feel that everybody does it. I think that's true. I think there's a lot of truth in that. What is the primary key insight that you want people to take away from this book and your experience now that it's out, like being in the world and connecting with people who are already used?

1:52:31I mean, the book just came out and people are already getting tattooed with it. Oh, they were getting tattoos when I shared it on social media once. I mean, it came out December 24th, where I don't even know what the numbers are. I mean, we're on track to - Like, here's an interesting thought. Like, that sort of plays into this idea that maybe you do have control over other people, that you could say something and then they go out and get a tattoo. Oh, I don't believe that. Like, does that fuck with your brain at all? Not at all. And I'll tell you why. I don't feel responsible for what other people do with the things that I'm sharing in the light that I cast.

1:53:04That's good. I look at what I'm doing as a job that is, that has a certain weight and responsibility and magic to it because of what's happening right now and the feeling of being a light and sharing goodness and reminding people of what they know to be true about themselves and other people and sharing simple ways that they can tap back into what's important to them and take back their time and energy and power and joy. But it's a job. Like I, it's not my identity. Like I know who I am. I love my life in a small mountain town. I love my family. I wanna see my friends like you more. I don't wanna do more.

1:53:49And I'm not tied up in what's actually happening and how that says something about the actual person that I am. And I think that's why people always use the words authentic humility, because I don't want to have a different life. I want to still shop in the little store that is like a hardware store meets grocery store. I want to hike up the mountain in the morning. I want to meet my friends for coffee. All of the bigness of this is exciting because of the impact and because it feels like a once in a lifetime opportunity to be able to show up and do something good and to serve in this moment. And that's why you're a worthy steward of this message because you're transmitting something that you actually have.

1:54:46It's beautiful. Thank you. I feel like we should end this with the serenity prayer. It's actually part of it, yeah. Yeah, this is how a lot of AA meetings end. Oh, really? It's a reminder, yeah, like God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Wow. You know that one. I've never heard you say it. Oh, thank you. Thank you for doing this today, Malice. This is wonderful. Thank you, I love you. I'm so happy for you and the impact that you're having in a real meaningful way in the world. It's a really beautiful thing.

1:55:31And I celebrate you. Thank you. I celebrate you too. I'm really proud of you. I'm so excited to see all of the ways that you're expanding and the people that you're empowering. And I love you too. Here's to our next conversation. Here's to our next conversation. It better be in Boston. All right. Get on a plane. Book my flight. Thanks.

1:56:06That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

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