Life After Free Solo: Alex Honnold On Risk Post Kids, Transcending Fear, Parenting, The Devil’s Climb, & More

23:54It feels like you have kind of embraced more endurance stuff in your life. Was that in preparation for that? Or is that just a natural thing that you've been? No, I just, I just like, I like adventures. I like doing fun things. But so in this particular case though, and none of this is in the film, I don't know what it was, but the whole bike ride, I just like never thrived. Like I started the journey quite sick because our baby was really sick and we hadn't slept in forever. And I wound up, I got like a sinus infection or something. And then Tommy's house is in Estes Park, Colorado, which is like 8 ,000 feet.

24:24And so we started our journey 8 ,000 feet. I was like not acclimatized. I was very sick. and I basically sucked, you know, I was like totally wrecked. And then for the full six weeks of biking, I just felt like I got worse the whole time, like never really recovered, never felt better. And so at the end of the two month expedition, I came out of it, not feeling like peak fitness. I came out of it feeling like totally destroyed, like in a bad way. You know, normally when you do that much exercise, you're like, oh, I'm getting better at it. You kind of get into it. You get, yeah, you're tired and then you kind of rebound and then you get stronger and stronger.

24:53I felt like I had no rebound the whole trip. And so even when we got to the Inside Passage in Alaska and we were sailing for a week. I got off the boat a week later and it was like the rest week had like bounced right off. Like nothing had happened. I was like, I'm stoked, I completely suck. And so I don't know why it was, it's like one of the first trips where I completely failed to thrive like that. And I was like athletically, you know, I was just like, I suck and I don't know why. And I just like, couldn't, I don't know. I think I needed like a monster recover. There's always those experiences, you know?

25:19I mean, I think that still like, it seems like you've had good experiences with endurance. Like I'm curious around how that informs your climbing or as you kind of lean into doing like longer runs and rides, if there's some learnings that you've gotten from that that have informed or helped you in how you approach like the mountain expeditions. Well, I think a lot of the long runs and rides, I mean, are basically the exact same feeling as the mountain expeditions. It's like you're just grinding in a low gear all day, you know, whether that's hiking uphill or like bushwhacking through the dense temper rainforest in Alaska or pedaling the bike.

25:57It's like basically the same sensation of just slowly pushing your body for, you know, 12 hours a day or something. I don't know, I mean, though in general, all of those pursuits do not help your rock climbing. Rock climbing is never helped by any kind of long, slow aerobic output like that. It's just too different. But I would imagine it helps keep you connected with just how to like be in a low level of discomfort for a long period of time without really being at risk. That's the thing I think I get from big cardio efforts, like hiking uphill quickly for several hours or something is it just reminds you to try hard, you know, that it's always uncomfortable.

26:38And rock climbing is definitely the same way that when you're trying to do hard climbs, it's uncomfortable, your body hurts. You're just like, ah. And so it just kind of reminds you that effort is effort, you know, like you have to try hard if you wanna do hard things. What is a typical training day for you look like at home? I mean, I know you've got this climbing gym at your house. Like there's a great video that kind of show everybody all your shit. I'm not trying to show too much stuff, but so this summer I was on a really nice routine where for five or six weeks, because I was at home, we put our older daughter in daycare for the first time.

27:10I was like, oh my God, we have time. I had more time to climb, it was incredible. But so I was in a routine. I was, uh, I was climbing outside three days a week, two days of hard sport climbing, one day of sort of adventure climbing or what I was calling like esoterica, where I would go climb like random routes that, uh, that people don't do or check out new walls. And it was like, so not quite max effort, but, uh, but more interesting and fun. Um, and then I was doing one day of training in the gym. And then I was doing one day of outdoor adventure, like a day of soloing or mountain climbing or like something cool just to like keep the spirits and then two days a week of like rest slash work stuff slash family you know whatever and is there like a uh a group of climbing fanatics in vegas that you go and do stuff with or are you doing this kind of by yourself no i do like mountain adventures by myself normally that's part of the point is just to hike by myself in the mountains have a nice time but uh but no there's a really good community of climbers and so um like for training in my home gym i have a whatsapp thread of everybody in town who's better than me basically like better than me at that kind of board training indoors and so I like to train with people who are stronger than me.

28:13Is there like a big climbing gym in Vegas where everyone hangs out? No, there isn't really a great commercial facility, which is part of the reason that I built like a nice home gym for myself because, and especially now with kids and I just didn't quite have the time to drive into town to go to a mediocre, I mean, you know, with respect to the gyms in Vegas, but they're just not like, they're not that nice of facilities. Right.

28:41After hosting more than 900 episodes of this podcast, I have noticed a pattern. And that pattern is that the highest performers don't buy into the latest trendy hacks. Instead, they obsess on what actually works, which is always the unassuming basics. And there is nothing more basic than hydration. But here's the kicker. Your body can't hold onto water without the right minerals. Without them, water is just like this temporary visitor. But Element has cracked the code on this, which is why I've been using it religiously for years. Zero sugar, no artificial junk, just sodium, potassium, and magnesium in the ratios that actually work.

29:22And look, I'm not exactly crushing ultras right now, healing from this surgery, but in some ways I need it even more. In order to properly recover, I need to treat my body even better than ever so it can heal properly and expeditiously while also maintaining my focus and my energy levels to rock out all of these podcasts, write a book, be a husband and a dad. And I gotta say, Element keeps my brain firing in a way that water alone can't. Their new sample pack features their most popular flavors. Citrus salt, raspberry salt, watermelon salt, that's my favorite, and orange salt. Eight stick packs total, perfect for finding your favorite or sharing with a friend.

30:05Get a free eight count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt.com slash richroll. Find your favorite Element flavor or share it with a friend. We're brought to you today by the wonderful folks at Go Brewing. Let me tell you a story. A few years ago, this guy Joe Chura rings me up out of the blue and he asked if I'll fly out to Illinois and speak at this event that he was hosting called Go, which ended up being this really incredible weekend oriented around taking inspired action. Joe and I hit it off, but, you know, that was kind of that. And it wasn't until I ran into him a couple years ago at Jesse Itzler's Running Man event that I realized that he had taken inspired action himself by creating this new enterprise that was also called Go.

30:53Go Brewing, in fact, which from Go has grown into what it is today, one of the most exciting revolutions in craft brewing. One of the many things that makes Go Brewing extraordinary is that they don't outsource like most companies. They handcraft everything from scratch in small batches. In fact, this commitment to quality has fueled their growth into one of America's fastest growing breweries now in over 5 ,000 locations across 20 states and available online. The Salty AF Chilada earned the untapped number one non-alcoholic lager in the United States. And they're constantly creating bold new flavors almost every month that push the boundaries of what non-alcoholic beer can be.

31:34Double IPAs, mouthwatering sours, all with zero added sugars and none of the junk. Hear that? Incredible stuff. The non-alcoholic revolution is here, people. I am proud to help champion it alongside Joe. So get on board by getting with Go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code RICHROLL for 15 % off your first purchase. Go.

32:06When it comes to health, sleep is a big deal. And there's just so much science out there to back up the role that it plays in every facet of well-being, from heart health to mental health, recovery, cognition, and just being able to show up as your best self. Getting a quality eight hours per night is a personal, non-negotiable that I go to great lengths to ensure. It's sort of a commitment not only to myself, but to my career and to those that I love that all begins with what I'm sleeping on. Now, I've tried many mattresses, but the one that's really won my heart is Birch. And there's many reasons for this, all of which boil down to the simple fact that Birch just does things right.

32:46In addition to being incredibly comfortable and cool, helping you regulate temperatures at night, which are essential for quality rest, Birch mattresses are also firm in all the right places, and all their materials are sustainably sourced, including organic fair trade cotton. And also, everything is hypoallergenic and toxin-free, meaning no harmful off-gassing typical of most mattresses. Birch is so confident in their product, they're offering both a 100-night risk-free trial as well as a 25-year warranty. Plus, they provide free delivery right to your door in a conveniently sized box-up. And so I wanna offer all of my listeners the chance to enjoy a deep and restful night's sleep with a new mattress from Birch.

33:34So right now you can get 27 % off site-wide plus two free EcoRest pillows with mattress purchase. Just go to birchliving.com slash richroll.

33:52the most meaningful part of the documentary was was kind of this line that or this little monologue that you deliver at the end which i i wanted to share i mean not to like you know kind of like spoil it for people but but let's hear the ending right now i mean it's not really it's not really like a plot point yeah um but you say uh you say kind of as the documentary is closing the real power of an expedition is that you condense years of life into a single month or two. But at the same time, I think I'm maturing my spirit and the relationships in my life and the friends that I keep. When I was younger, it's so glamorous to be dark and moody and conflicted, but now I think I'm kind of getting it.

34:34I wanna ask you what that means. Why not do the same hard things, but be happy while you're doing them? Like, why not? So it's sort of this maturing beyond that, that like attachment to the hardness of it all, like being gloomy, being dark, feeling like you can't attack or accomplish these great things unless you're inhabiting that mindset and realizing like it doesn't have to be that way. Well, that's like the tortured artist thing. It's so glamorous to be the tortured artist, but then you're like, why don't you just smile and still paint something beautiful? You know, it's like, is that so hard?

35:09I mean, part of that actually is an idea that I think is maybe brought up in free solo in the film because I got a lot of that from my wife because when when we started dating you know I was kind of like a tortured artist like trying to solo things I mean I was never that dark and tortured or anything but I was definitely more angstful about everything and she was just kind of like why like do you need to be angstful about it like you can still do all these hard things but why not just smile you know have a good time and like have stable relationships and like enjoy the company of your friends like basically be happy while doing all these things.

35:42I think when you're young, you think that that angst is part of the, part of like what's fueling you. You know, if you're not angsty and then you're not paying enough attention to the details or you're not like being intense enough about the whole thing. Yeah, well, I think that's part of it. It's like, you can still train hard, do the work, do everything, but not necessarily be intense about it in that way. And I think that's kind of what I'm settling into. Yeah, you're not like a guy who has some kind of hidden darkness. Like I don't get that energy from you. Like there's not like some, yeah.

36:14Like I think there's distance. There's like emotional distance. Like this is your Mount Everest. You know what I mean? Like I know you're working on it, but I think maybe that gets mistaken for darkness. Did you ever know Dean Potter? No. You know who he was? I know who he was. He was like professional primer. Yeah. So people in the community sort of called him the dark wizard because he was a very broody, very emotional, like twisted artist, like deeply. and actually I think some folks are making a full HBO documentary thing about him because his life is incredible and he totally he was a visionary climber did all these incredible things but a lot of people you know myself included called him the yeah the dark wizard because you're like oh he's pretty scary you know and uh and I always consider myself the white wizard you know I mean it's kind of kind of Lord of the Rings references and stuff but but I was like oh I'm doing the same things as Dean I was sort of following in his footsteps to some extent but with none of the broody darkness You know, I obviously have a little bit of my own, but just like totally different order of magnitude than what he was doing.

37:12I was kind of like, oh, why not be the white wizard? You know, like do the same things, but be happy. It's less about darkness. And it's more about what Tommy says when he's interviewing there. Like, what are you concerned about? What are you worried about going into this thing? And he's like, well, I'm a little concerned about like Alex's lack of empathy. Like he's sort of saying it with a twinkle, you know what I mean? But like, this is the thing that always comes up with you, right? People ask you about this all the time. There was a turned out on that trip. Really, I needed - But then you become this really empathetic person.

37:40Like you're really like there for him. I mean, you know. So this is your growth curve. Well, part of this is having kids and stuff too, I think. Yeah. I mean, I'm like literally taking care of people all the time now. It's like, I think I would expect that I'll become quite a bit more nurturing and supportive. And, you know, at least I hope so. For my daughter's sake, I hope so. But he does say that you're grumpy when you're not climbing. Like, so all the, all the, all it's like so much of this adventure was just preface to get to the actual place where you get to do the thing. Right. And you get moody in the lead up.

38:12It was not just that. Well, so before the trip, I was kind of like, Tommy, well, and this is a whole different thing that we could get into. But so Tommy wanted to do this trip partially because of the environmental impact. Like he wanted to try sort of the self-supported, like mostly human powered. I mean, as it turns out, because we filmed it, it's not really human powered. And, you know, there was support there people filming. but it's like a roughly human powered adventure, you know, like, and the devil's thumb is in Tongass national forest, which is the largest tempered rainforest in the world.

38:40It was like this giant, uh, rainforest in Alaska, uh, but with pine trees and things and grizzly bears and salmon and it's totally amazing landscape, um, which still has some old growth forest, but has been heavily logged. And so there's a lot of, uh, you know, policy things around forest management anyway. And so Tommy's main sponsor, Patagonia, has put a ton of effort into trying to protect the Tongass and raise awareness about that kind of stuff. And so Tommy's really interested in that. And so he wanted to do this human-powered adventure to this really important biodiverse ecosystem and then have a climbing adventure there.

39:12And so part of the, you know, I mean, the whole journey that he crafted was this idea of, you know, this like deep immersion in the landscape, like see the American West, tour this important forest, do some climbing along the way. and I was like, I hear that. I get that. I was like, why don't we drive? You know, I was kind of like, I was like, we're climbers, you know, like, why don't we just drive to these climbing areas along the way and then have more time for climbing? And so, and a lot of this wound up not making the cut in the film just because the film wound up much stronger being sort of a buddy movie with the two of us and focusing on our relationship.

39:47But in a different world, they definitely could have made an environmentally focused film because, you know, we biked across the entire American West and we were interacting with these landscapes in a way that you just don't normally experience when you're driving or when it was certainly when you're flying past them. And so, I don't know. I mean, I think both of us were trying to like have a nature experience, but my takeaway from the bike ride was just that the whole landscape has all been pillaged by man. Like it was, it was crazy. Like the amount of environmental degradation, just the amount of like loss that you see along the way and just how scrappy the towns were.

40:21And so you're going through all these little communities and you're like, nobody is thriving. You know, like the landscape isn't thriving. The people here aren't thriving. The communities aren't thriving. Like nothing about this is working. And so I found the whole journey, like kind of depressing in a lot of ways. I mean, besides the buddy aspect where you're like, Oh, we're having this great adventure. This is cool. But when you really looked around, you're like, this is deeply sad, you know, and then same with the inside passage in Alaska, where you're like, Oh, all these communities have depleted their fishing stock.

40:47The economies have collapsed and now they're being exploited by by cruise ships basically. And everything about it, you're like, nobody is doing well as a result of this. Anyway, this is a whole whole tangent to go down. That's huge. And none of that is in the documentary. Like there's absolutely nothing. Like that's a whole completely different movie. I know because it's just hard to make a great film with that. That's the challenge. Like the downer. I know. And I totally respect the filmmakers for, you know, they have all this incredible footage and they're like, well, here we made a great film.

41:14And I think the film they made is great, but you definitely could have made a full on environmental documentary about like, let's talk about, deforestation or, you know, yeah. I mean, just all of it. I was like, this is crazy. I think that mountaineers, alpine, you know, climbers, adventurers, people who go on these amazing expeditions are important voices in the discussion around the environment, because you are the people who are putting yourself in these remote parts of the planet where changes in climate are most evident, right? Like you're, it's like you, I saw the route of the bike ride.

41:51Like you're, it's not like you're on the interstate. Like you're going through really remote places that you would assume or think these are still untouched. These are pristine. So that was the thing that was so sobering about this trip was that, and it actually made me realize. So I think that I have a pretty good finger on the pulse of the environment because I spent so much time outside. But this bike journey actually made me realize that all the time that I spent outside is mostly in parks or protected places or on mountains in the most remote places. And the thing is that realistically humans just don't exploit those types of mountain ranges because they're too steep.

42:22They're too hard to work in. So like nobody is cutting trees or mining or whatever because you're on this side of a mountain. It's just like that's just not where somebody is going to set up a mine if they can help it. And on this bike ride, I realized that literally everything else has been exploited by man. Like we rode across central BC. Like I kind of thought that the middle of British Columbia would just be untouched forest because it's like so far north and there's nobody up there. and there are very few population centers. It turns out it's all been logged, like everything. And so you're seeing second growth forests.

42:54And the thing is, if you're not paying attention and you're just biking, you're like, oh, there are lots of trees. And then you're like, wait, none of this is old growth. Like these have all been cut down and then replanted and whatever, it's all human impacted. And you can see like sawmills everywhere. And I was just like, it's crazy. And so it made me realize that I think I've had a skewed perspective because I spend so much time in places like Yosemite where you're like, nature is doing just fine. It's incredible. And then you're like, no, it's doing fine within the confines of this national park.

43:20And then as soon as you cross the border of the park, everything's been cut down. It was crazy. Like we rode through Yellowstone on the way, it just happened to be on the way, which is kind of cool. And so Yellowstone, we saw tons of animals, you know, it's like, it's incredible, it's Yellowstone. And then you get into the rest of Wyoming, Montana and everything has been, you know, it's all like fields and everything's been cut. And you're just like, whoa, if you're not within a protected area, It's being exploited. It was crazy. So how does that inform like your stewardship of the Honnold Foundation?

43:54Like did that change or kind of increase the intensity with which you're pursuing your environmental work? I mean, maybe a little. I mean, realistically, I haven't changed actions that much, but it does. I mean, so I read a lot of environmental nonfiction and everything you read about is like how dire you know, climate change is how much of an impact humans are having on the environment, all those kinds of things. And I think that previously I could be like, you know, but it's not that bad. Like there are all these beautiful places on earth and they're all doing just fine. You know, the remote mountains in Alaska are doing just fine.

44:28And you're like, yeah, well, the mountains in Alaska are doing fine because it's, it's physically too hard for humans to get there to exploit them. But anything that's easy to get to is being exploited. It was like, it just made me realize that I've been spending all my time, like basically the, the places that I go climbing are the, will be the last places on earth that get exploited by man. But like literally everything else is being destroyed. But the further you go north or south, the more evident like glacier recession. Yeah, glacier recession. And then you're dealing with avalanches and all kinds of stuff.

44:55Totally, and actually on the devil's thumb, there was shocking difference between the photos from even 10 years ago. Wow. Because there's not that many people go there, not that many people climb. And so, you know, we were pulling up trip reports from people who went in 2012 and, you know, I know some friends of ours had gone in like 2013. I know it was that dude, right? You went and stayed with that guy who like knows the mountain really well. Yeah, Dieter. Yeah. You're close. Yeah, so, and so he had all these mountains or all these photos of the mountain since like the seventies or something when people first went.

45:26And it's completely different now. I mean, the shape of the mountain is different. The glaciers have receded so much that now there are all these other rock ridges all over. Also, and this is mentioned a bit in the film, but the Northwest face of the devil's thumb is this 5 ,000 foot rock wall. that's considered one of the last great problems of North American alpinism. And all the historic photos that you see from the glacier below it, you look up this 5 ,000 foot wall that's like covered in hanging glaciers and snow fields. And it like, it looks like death, you know, there's like ice everywhere.

45:52So Tommy and I looked down that wall, uh, from what we were climbing, you could like look down, down that face and it's bone dry. I mean, we were there late season. So a lot of things would have melted anyway, but there are no more hanging snow fields or no glaciers. Like Like literally it's just a big face of rubble. It's just like a rock face. We were like, like now it doesn't even look like a last great challenge of albinism. And actually, I mean, I don't know if any real cutting edge alpinist listened to this podcast, but I was like, if I was a younger man that was like hungrier to make a name for myself, I would definitely go and solo a new route up that face because I was like, this looks downright easy now.

46:27You know, the right person could just do this. None of those threats are there anymore. Yeah, now it's a threat of rock fall. And like, I mean, it still would be a sort of dangerous face, but it's totally different than it used to be. And I was like, this looks like easy. I was like, I think I could just do this like casually. Someone's gonna hear this in like a light bulb moment. Or at least it would be really easy to do the first 4 ,000 feet. And then there's kind of this head wall. And if that seemed too extreme, then you would traverse off the sides and just escape or something. But I was kind of like, if I was in a base camp down below that face for 10 days with good weather, I would for sure do some things on it.

47:01You know, and I was like, man, it's totally different than it used to be. Well, that range, that mountain is known, that region is known for its terrible weather, but you got this amazing day. It looked downright like balmy out. Yeah, it was like totally pleasant. Yeah, it was like, I'm wondering if that was like highly unusual also. I don't think it's worth generalizing that kind of stuff because you always get, I'm sure a couple of days a year, you always have great weather, but we had like a week of great weather, which is very unusual, but it was late season. It is when it should be the driest and I don't know.

47:32So, you know, either we just got really lucky or it is getting drier up there, but who knows. And you say in the doc that the decision of which route you were gonna take was sort of a game day thing. You were gonna kind of improvise and decide like almost spur of the moment which route you were gonna take. So, why is it that you decided not to take on that Northwest face and instead traverse like those ridges? So, there was literally like five different peaks on the way. I mean, obviously visually, like that was extraordinary. Yeah, it's insane. It's so cool. These are the most jagged pointed, you know, narrow peaks that I've ever seen.

48:07It's like bananas. They were insane. I mean, even for me and Tommy, a couple of the summits, I think were the smallest summits we've ever stood on. I mean, some of them were probably less than half the size of the table that we're sitting at. So, you know, and I don't know if this footage made in the film, but there's some things where I'm trying to take a picture of Tommy, but I can't really pull the camera far enough away to fit him in the frame because the summit is so small that we're so close together that you just can't fit him in the frame. And I was like, this is crazy. Like, this is a really small summit.

48:33And then, you know, it's like a thousand foot drop off either side. This is a jagged little needle. It's pretty, pretty amazing. And you keep forgetting, I said this earlier, but it's sort of like, oh, there's you two. And then was it Tyler who was the, who accompanied you? Taylor. Sweet Taylor. Yeah, Taylor. And then, but how many, how many filmmakers were with you? Because like I said, the footage was incredible and I kept forgetting like a lot of it's drone, but there's some real closeups on your hands and your feet and your face. And there was some head mounted cameras, I could tell. But also somebody is like right next to you on that rock getting footage of you.

49:08Yeah, so it was a really complicated operation. And this is where the limits of human powered adventure are really seen because it was helicopter assisted. The camp had been stopped, like basically all the filmmakers came in by helicopter and got positioned on the mountains in a couple of places by helicopter. And so you're like, that's all obviously very high environmental impact. but um yeah there were probably a half dozen people on the team i mean the team was a little bit bigger because it includes like a medic and and uh you know a couple mountain guys to make sure that nobody uh falls off the mountain but there were two or three camera guys i mean there were a few times when i think there were three drones flying around us being operated by different people but there were often two drones flying around us which was funny because for me and tommy it just you don't really feel like you're alone in the mountains that way it's like yeah you're trying to yell at each other like you're off the land you can't hear because they're like like two drones going behind you.

49:58It's like being out on the sidewalk with like somebody mowing their lawn next to you. Cause the drones are pretty loud. You're just like, oh, it really takes away from the beauty. I mean, you're out there all day. So you still have plenty of beautiful experiences, but it was a lot of drone work. Yeah, it's. They were flying drones from like so far away. It was crazy. They must've had amazing long lenses on them though. Because I mean, there was. No, the drones were like coming in super close, but they were flying them like a couple of miles. Oh wow. Flying them from other mountains. And then they would sort of circle around the spires for the 20 or 30 minutes of battery life and then flying back to a couple miles away.

50:32And they got pretty close to you. Yeah, really close. These must've been like bigger. No, no. These are not like little DJI's. No, these are straight. Yeah, DJI straight up like Mavic, whatever. The Inspire, I think is the big one. But no, Renan really pushes the limits of what you can do with drones. Yeah, it was pretty cool. Like Renan Oster, who directed and filmed a lot of this, he's like kind of next level with all the drones, but he would send them up and send them on like a hyperlapse or something like, his drone would just like fly to the sunset and back while shooting like a beautiful night thing.

51:03And then he would be holding an actual camera interviewing one of us. And then we'd like hear beeping, hear beeping. And the drone would basically auto land when the battery died. So he's literally doing drone work. Yeah, he would completely, yeah, he would forget that the drone is even gone. The drone's like off getting footage and he'd be like making a movie with his camera. And then the drone would come back and you know, you're looking at him, he's holding the camera and you see a drone landing behind him and you're like, Renan, do you need to do something? Like, should you catch that? Or like, you know, help that thing land?

51:30And he's like, oh yeah, yeah, the drone, you know? And he'll like, bring it in. You're like, geez, he had like, I think they had like 20 drones with him. Wow. Like for crashing and for battery, like just whatever. And you're an executive producer on this project, yeah? I mean, whatever that means. Yeah, whatever that means. But I guess why I raised that is, you know, you've done a number of these projects, right? Like you're kind of like a filmmaker. Like you're part of this melding of adventure and filmmaking, but you're kind of part of this corner of the entertainment industry, like making these films.

52:00Like you're like a media figure as much as you are like an adventure athlete or explorer. So I've never aspired to be any of that, but I think you're probably - But this is how you spend most of your time. Well, not most, but like one big expedition a year or something like that. But it is probably true that at this point, I bet I could finagle a budget, put together the team, make a film like this, you know, like I've, actually I probably could executive produce something like this and not that I'm doing a ton of work on these projects necessarily, but there is a lot of wrangling, getting the right parts together, making sure it's the right team and everybody knows what to do, I don't know.

52:33Do you think there's ever gonna be another documentary, you know, in this vein that makes it to the Oscars? I doubt it, but you never know honestly, because climbing is like so much more of a thing. could just be some totally different kind of documentary. You know, maybe, I don't know. I mean, sports documentaries are always so compelling. Sure, but I think it's the story, right? Like we've seen all these epic documentaries of climbing and you just, you see these death defying things, but I think it's the story that makes the difference. But there, I mean, there are a lot of good stories in climbing though.

53:09I mean, I wouldn't be shocked if someday something like that, or, you know, if like a swimming documentary won an Oscar, I'd be like, wouldn't be shocked like it could happen. Yeah. What's going on with the Honol Foundation? What are the projects that you're excited about and working on right now? Well, we've got projects all over the world that we're just, I don't know. I mean, it's basically just steadily ramping into a full on organization. I mean, the last couple of years we've given over 2 million a year in grants and so projects all over the world. And in a good way, it's sort of exceeded my capacity to know what any of the projects are at any given time.

53:43Obviously as a board member, I'm still voting on the slate of new projects each year, but realistically the team vets things so well that you're just like, if the team thinks it's a good idea, it's a good idea. Yeah, so you have sort of an arm's length relationship. Like now that it's matured to a certain point, you don't have to be involved in the day-to-day decision-making. Yeah, well, and the decision-making is better because I'm not involved in the day-to-day. It's like, it's much, much better. but no i'm still obviously fundraising with a bunch and and uh and working with the foundation uh you know fair amount like so each year we we issue an open call for grant applications so we get hundreds of applications from all over the world for from communities in different places um maybe like 20 percentage domestic projects and the rest global and we get hundreds of applications uh and we only have the money to fund you know a handful of the best ones and so we get to be pretty selective about what are the best projects.

54:34And so it's all, uh, you know, community organizations using solar to, to benefit their community in whatever ways. And so that can be, um, you know, I mean, it's different case by case. Sometimes that involves job training. Sometimes that involves, uh, you know, like food or processing foods or, or, or even just energy access like lights, you know, whatever, or just saving money or transportation, like, you know, basically using solar energy for whatever helps their community the most. And it's just, I don't great. It's like there's so many like second and third order benefits for a lot of these communities.

55:07They're just like, and then that often leads to environmental benefits. You know, like if a community doesn't have to cut a road out because they now can have solid powered boats, it's like by not cutting a road that you can avoid deforestation in different ways. Like, cause that's sort of serves as a jump off point for people to mine illegally into, into, uh, harvest wood illegally. And, and I don't know, there just, there's a lot of things where you're like, Oh, this is the way the world should be. And so I think basically at the Honolk Foundation right now is supporting a lot more projects where I'm like, wow, that's cool.

55:37You know, it's like you wanna support projects where you're like, why? Why hasn't somebody done that before? That's such a good idea. Like, that's great. That's just like the way the world should be. So what are some of those specifically for people that don't know kind of the work that you do in solar? Yeah, so like I was just mentioning like solar powered boats in the Amazon. That's like one of the more sort of fringe projects that we supported or more in a niche. But in rural communities in Ecuadorian rivers, like the further you go up river, the more expensive fuel is, the harder it is to transport things by boat.

56:04So solar powered boats basically save them a ton of money, prevent them from having to cut roads out to certain communities. And as a result, you know, basically helps the community, helps them save a ton of money and helps the environment. And so projects like that, where you're just kind of like, oh, that's an interesting idea that has much more of a positive impact than you would expect from something that seems sort of simple. But then at the other end of the spectrum, we supported this project, just like a grid-tied solar project on a school for indigenous girls in Guatemala. And you're sort of like, it's really simple, just like putting solar panels on your roof here at home, just saves you money on your utility bill.

56:36But in this case, it's a school for indigenous girls saving money on their utility bill. And you're like, that's win-win. It's like the school has that much more to put into their own programming. And you're like, it's exactly the people that you wanna see getting good education in the right way. And it's helping to decarbonize the grid. It's like good for the environment, good for people, easy, simple win. What are the barriers to getting solar are like more universal with everybody. Frickin' money. Yeah. I mean, that's it. Like all this stuff is just funding. And that's kind of the thing is that we've been given two million a year in grants and we have a$65 million pipeline of projects that we haven't been able to fund yet because we just don't have the money.

57:12But that's like people applying for them. And of those probably half are actually really great projects, but still that's like 30 million in projects that are small scale community things around the world where you can have a real tangible impact on some community and all they need is the money. Yeah, when you provide that to these communities that are like in the middle of nowhere, it's not just that they get electricity. There are all these like kind of downstream benefits as a result, like it really becomes like invigorating to, it brings this whole community back to life. It brings people together.

57:45And so we've seen exactly that with a couple of projects in the Brazilian Amazon, where by providing power to a community, they suddenly sort of stop the outflow of young people. like basically people leaving a village because they don't have access to power, they don't have access to the internet. They're basically seeking opportunity in different towns. And as soon as you bring power to some of those villages, they find that they can have the same opportunities at home because people don't necessarily want to leave the village that they grew up in. But if they feel like there's no opportunity there, then they will.

58:12But as soon as you provide power to some of those communities, people are like, you know, I can live in the places that I historically have. And yeah, it has a big deal on maintaining local communities. Yeah, it does make you think like, these are just good ideas. like why that's the thing like i know and in the grand scheme the solutions are easy and they're available and the technology exists and it's not expensive exactly they're so relatively cheap that's the thing that's so crazy to me is a lot of these projects like the grants that we're giving range from 50 to 250k generally somewhere in there which you know is kind of a lot on a personal level but kind of not that much because 50k if it transforms a village you're like dude like you know i mean how many people do we know that have 50k or lying around but i mean you just think There's so many philanthropists like deploying money to solve the climate crisis.

58:58And you're sort of like, well, there are all these projects out there like waiting to be done and it doesn't cost that much. And it has this tremendous impact on human lives. It's like, we should definitely start with this type of stuff. Yeah, it reminds me of Scott Harrison at Charity Water. Have you ever met him? I haven't met him. Oh man, I mean, you would love this guy. Like it's the same thing. Like he's going into these communities that don't have clean drinking water and like building wells and it's not that expensive and it completely transforms the community. And, you know, the water crisis is so massive.

59:30He can spend the rest of his life doing this and he's made a huge dent, but like the work will never be done, right? And so it's about like being okay with the fact that you'll never completely solve this problem, but you keep showing up for it. Well, that's kind of true for all human problems though, that you're never gonna solve them all. But the point is the effort. I mean, that's the same with athletic training and all that kind of stuff. It's like, you're never gonna be the best. You're never gonna like win-win. and you might have moments of greatness. You might be able to do some things that you're proud of, but ultimately there is no winning.

59:56It's like, it's the effort that's meaningful. It's like, it's the showing up and grinding every day. Yeah. And I think, yeah, with nonprofit stuff, it's like, it's all about trying. How has your relationship with greatness changed or evolved? Being a dad, having two kids, being involved in the nonprofit, like having like a full life that's so much more than just about like whatever wall you're thinking about climbing. oh I don't know I don't even know if I haven't thought about it that much but I think when I was younger like in your 20s you're just like if I achieve these things then I'll be the man and then you do some of those things and you're like I'm exactly the same man you know you're sort of like like I don't know what I thought the man would be but it feels strangely similar to the way I was you know yesterday when I woke up the day before or whatever you know whatever and I think even more so with family you're just kind of like we're literally all just struggling along doing our best.

1:00:47Like, you know, it's like when your baby wakes up in the middle of the night, four times crying and you're just like totally haggard, just dealing. You're like, you know, like this is a pretty universal human experience. Like everybody just has to deal and like provide for their families and stuff. And I don't know. I think it really de-emphasizes all the, the, the achievement. Right. Right. Right. You're just like, you know, it's like, I love climbing. I love challenging myself as a climber and doing things that I'm proud of. But ultimately it's like, we're all just doing our best and just trying to get by.

1:01:15Because of all the crazy hard stuff that you've done, I would imagine that you're not a guy who like sweats the small stuff. And, you know, when you're a parent, you've got babies and it's stressful and you're underslept and all of that. It's easy to kind of get caught up in a bunch of nonsense that gets you spun out. But I would imagine like you don't get spun out as easily as the average human. No, I definitely, that's interesting to hear you say that because, I mean, obviously we do struggle with the lack of sleep and with babies and just like the time, but I definitely don't get spun out about it.

1:01:46I don't really like stress the baby stuff, but I just get grounded dust because I'm so freaking tired. You know, it's like, so I think even if you're not stressing it, it's still really hard. But I think what's gonna serve you well as a parent is that like you, like I think you have a firm grip or understanding on like what's important and what's not. And as a parent with a small kid, it's like you have aspirations and you can easily like lose your mind over stuff that actually doesn't matter at all. Yeah. You know, actually, so I had a thought, I was hiking with my daughter a couple of days ago.

1:02:15Uh, it was pretty cute. I like hiker uphill in the backpack and then she kind of staggers downhill as much as she wants. Then I carry her home and it was totally lovely. We're up on the mountains. It was, it was nice. But, um, but I had, I had this thought and I'm curious, I'm curious your take on this. And I, and I thought about this because as we were hiking down, um, you know, she's two and a half, so she doesn't really get the concept of just like hiking down a mountain. So she was really just kind of wandering rock to rock and like pretending to climb rocks and playing on things. And then she got bored of the rocks.

1:02:38Then she was going animal hole to animal hole and putting her hands into the holes, which I was like, well, that seems a little sketchy, but I was kind of trying to discourage her. But at the same time, I'm like, oh, that's cool that you're curious. And I'm excited that you're interested in nature and whatever. Anyway, so she's like wandering down this trail. And there were times when I would get far enough ahead of her or behind her that I couldn't see her for a little bit. And I'm like, it's fine. It's a safe trail. Other people around us, it's fine. But I feel incredibly comfortable in that kind of environment.

1:03:03And, you know, obviously I project that on my daughter, like you do whatever you want. And I was like, I think part of parenting is to be comfortable in enough places that you don't project your own fears onto your children. Because as I was on this trail, I was like, man, this is like my home and it feels easy, easy. But I was like, if we were at a barn, like saddling a horse, you know, like I would feel pretty uncomfortable with that because I don't know anything about horses. And, you know, I'm like, that's a big animal. It's kind of intimidating. But I wouldn't want to project that kind of intimidation onto my daughter because, you know, obviously she should have a healthy respect for things that could kill her.

1:03:36but But at the same time, I don't wanna grow up being afraid of things. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's like, I feel like part of being a parent is basically being comfortable enough with the world around you that you don't make your child afraid of that world. Comfortable enough with the world around you, but also the world inside of you. Because I think, first of all, that's amazing insight. That already puts you ahead of like 99.9 % of all parents. And it's something that, you know, I'm continually reminding myself of and trying to master with, you know, varying degrees of success. But I think the insight is we all have lived a life of certain experiences and nobody emerges from childhood without some kind of wounding or whatever.

1:04:18And you have all this bullshit in your mind, right? And it's like, forget about the outdoors. It's like, whatever your past is, like that's what ends up getting projected onto your child because you have your own fears or whatever, however irrational they are. And unconsciously we're doing that all the time, right? And so the young mind is kind of processing that. and creating a map of the world based upon those signals, which most of the time aren't even verbal. It's just like your energy, right? So if you're a generally fearful person because you've been hurt in the past or you've had bad experiences, you're naturally gonna project that onto your child because you want your child to be safe and you don't want them to be afraid in the way that you are.

1:04:55But actually that behavior is that cross purposes with that goal, right? Totally. Whereas if you could just comport yourself and refrain from projecting your own bullshit onto your kid, the kid's gonna be just fine. And I think for you to be somebody who is so comfortable in nature to take your child out and provide them this gift, which is like, it should be about adventure and not being scared. It's about being responsible and you teach and like, here's what you need to be careful of or whatever. Like don't put your whole arm down the little hole. Yeah, but like, don't be like, you know, just irrationally afraid of things in the world, I think is instilling in that young person, like a sense of capacity and agency and possibility.

1:05:33That's, I think that's one of the main things that I want out of parenting is just to make sure that my daughters aren't afraid of things or at least not afraid of things unnecessarily, you know, because obviously you should be, have a healthy fear of certain things, but I just don't want them to have like weird anxiety and neuroses and things, you know? It's like, just be afraid of the things that are appropriate. Yeah. Like if you're gonna die, be afraid. Otherwise, like keep it chill. But here's the thing. We also all kind of parent in opposition to the way we were parented in terms of like needs we feel like weren't met, right?

1:06:06And we tend to kind of overcompensate in the other direction. And we also have all these grand plans and designs. Like I'm gonna raise my kid this way and this is what's gonna happen. And then this is gonna happen. And then this is gonna happen. But it doesn't work out that way. I don't have any of that. Like they're gonna be who they're gonna be. That's exactly, yeah. And like if the universe has a say, maybe they're gonna hate mountaineering and they're gonna want nothing to do with the outdoors. And they're gonna wanna play video games all day. And they're gonna tell you to fuck off. Yeah, but I kind of love video games too.

1:06:33You know, in a different universe, I could have been a gamer. Whatever it is that you have like an issue with will be the thing that they'll like gravitate towards. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm only two and a half years into the parenting journey, but already I'm like, I don't think I've done any actual parenting. It's like our daughter is just blossoming into whoever she's gonna be, which is like a total psycho. She's like so energetic. She goes hard, but I'm kind of like, you know, she's just her. And, you know, it's just up to us to keep her safe. And yeah, we'll see. Yeah, with that, it's about like making sure you have the guardrails up so that they're safe, but widening the guardrails enough so that they can develop.

1:07:10Cause that's like amazing to have that kind of energy. And you know. That's the thing is like all the things that make her a really, really hard toddler are things that would make her a great adult. Later in life, this will serve her. And so you don't wanna push that at all. Yeah, exactly. But you just have to create an environment where the walls are kind of padded a little bit. Yeah, she's literally bouncing off the walls nonstop. So you need just need guardrails to keep her like inside the - This is June? Yeah, this is June. And she goes into the climbing gym and she has her own wall, right?

1:07:39Yeah, she's got a little warm up wall. So does she enjoy that? She doesn't really care. She like walks over, she'll climb stuff, she'll drop off. She's just as interested, she loves brushing the holds. You know, like climbers use like brushes, like looks like a toothbrush to brush the chalk off holds. So she loves like brushing holds and, you know, chalking your hands and doing all the things. but uh no she doesn't she doesn't like climb yet yeah but i mean she's she's two and a half i mean she walks i mean she runs around does stuff but you know she's she's still like learning the world right

1:08:14i own a bunch of spectacles and i made the grave error the other day of donning a normal non-Roka pair on my indoor trainer when I was riding my bike indoors. And I got to tell you, it was a disaster. Every three to five seconds, I had to take my hands off the handlebars and push my glasses back up my nose until I got so frustrated, I just tossed them aside. This is the dilemma of every active but optically impaired person I know. And as someone who has relied upon eyewear every single day since I was five years old, it is also the source of endless aggravation. Thankfully, now eradicated thanks to Broca, the stylish performance eyewear company founded by two former Stanford swimming teammates of mine who have gifted everyone like me and, quite frankly, the world with their fashionable line of super lightweight prescription glasses and sunglasses with patented no-slip nose and temple pads that are just impervious to sweat and no matter what you do, remain locked on your mug no matter how intense your workout.

1:09:23Without the dork factor, these things go everywhere with me from the trail to the dinner party. Put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20 % off your order with with the code RITUAL at ROKA.com. That's R-O-K-A.com.

1:09:50I took questions from the audience and I wrote them down on these cards and I thought we could just do a little bit of a grab bag and see what comes up. And if you don't wanna answer it, we'll move on to the next one. Or if we already talked about it, we can move on as well. Do I just grab one here? Yeah. Yeah, maybe we just dump them out and mix them up. You want to pick one of these? Oh, yeah. Okay, so we just pull out a... I don't know. Let's see what we got here. This one says, when are you going to run a 100 miler? That's an easy one. Never. Next. Yeah. No, and very intentionally because I think that to run the mileage required to not injure myself running a 100 miler would be prohibitive for rock climbing.

1:10:30Right. Like I can run a 50K kind of off the couch-ish, you know, with a little bit of running and having a good time and I can enjoy myself and not be injured. And I'm kind of like running 50 K is good enough. You know, it's like that, that is totally fine. So we're not going to see you towing the line at Leadville anytime soon. No, I can imagine doing a 50 miler because I've done some 50 mile hikes or like 47 mile hikes and things like that, like day adventures. Um, and actually I think this weekend I might try to do like a 45 mile day adventure hike thing. Would you do it in a race context though, or you just want to go out and do it on your own?

1:10:59This one I'm just going to do on my own. It involves going from like from Red Rock to the summit of the mountain. You know, it's just like an elemental challenge where you're like from the low to the high and it'll be cool. And then sadly from the high point, it's eight miles back to get to the trail. So then you're like, oh, it kind of makes it a long journey. Have you seen this enthusiasm around rucking that sort of has suddenly appeared? You must think like, well, I'm built for that. I could go like all day with that. Well, yeah, I can. But I'm also like, that's so, I just thought it was stupid.

1:11:26Like if you don't have to carry weight, don't carry weight. you know i don't know i love i mean because as somebody who does enough stuff where you have to carry a heavy backpack i'm kind of like if i don't have to carry the heavy backpack i'm just not carrying extra weight like it's crazy to me i i saw this guy on the trail actually i was hiking with june a couple days ago and this guy went by with this full-on weight vest i had to be like 25 pound weight vest walking his dog and i was just like you're literally just carrying little balls of lead up the mountain and back that's psycho do you know this guy michael easter uh so i live in He's in Vegas.

1:11:58He's the big ruck guy. I just got his contact info. I met a mutual friend of his who was like, you guys should connect because you're both in Vegas. And I was on his mailing list for a bit. I was like reading his whatever, you know, his content. I think I read his book maybe. And yeah, I think I'm totally into most of what he writes, but I'm like rucking, I don't really get it. But if somebody doesn't exercise in other ways, it's probably better to do that than nothing. But I'm kind of like, why not take off the pack? It's more of an older guy longevity thing, right? Why not run or like run gently or I don't know.

1:12:31Or if nothing else, like just hike with a day bag with a lot of water, drink your water and then trot down with no weight. You know, it's like, that's a, or dump your water. And I'm like, why go downhill with weight on if you don't have to? All right, next question. Okay, sorry. That was good. We'll cut that up into an amazing reel. It'll get, it'll be very controversial. Yeah, perfect. Favorite band or song? Tool, I'll just throw that out there. I don't know, I like old rock and stuff, but if I had to go favorite tool song, I'll go 46 and two. What about Jared Leto, 30 seconds to Mars? He's your guy.

1:13:06Well, yeah, he's a friend and I like the music, but not as much, you know, but I have listened to that music, you know, my whole life also. Good climber? Yeah, I mean, surprisingly good. Well, not that he works too much, but we climb at least a couple of times a year, maybe. Cool. Yeah, he also lives in Vegas, so. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, he moved out of LA. Didn't he live like in some airplane hangar up in the Boral Canyon? No, no, no, he lived in an airport space. Yeah. It's like, it's crazy. But it was also his office for his company, like his business and stuff, like studio space and whatever, you know, it's like a whole compound.

1:13:43But no, now he lives like in a house in Vegas. But I think it's because he travels literally nonstop to work. So he was kind of like, why pay California income tax if you're literally never there anyway? So you just - And then he gets to go climbing with you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, next question. It's true that you still use the same water bottle you've had for like forever. Yeah, yeah, I mean, basically. I generally, I mean, my general path is that I use a water bottle until it gets too scuzzy, and then it turns into a pee bottle. And then when that gets too scuzzy, it eventually gets recycled.

1:14:16But it's like a six-month life cycle. It has life stages. Yeah. It goes from water bottle to pee bottle. To eventually it turns into my synthetic jacket. You recycle it and get shredded. So how many years have you had your current water bottle? Oh, well, I don't know. I'd say it lasts like six months if you're lucky because your bottles just get smushed or they get broken. But I'm using like a two liter like apple juice bottle, just like a random trash bottle. What is the least sustainable thing that you do or least sustainable habit in your life? Aside from air travel. Yeah, I was like - Because that's the easy answer.

1:14:50Well, that's air travel is like the thing. I mean, the amount that I fly dwarfs everything else that I do in my life. So, um, it'd be second, second. Um, I mean, I maybe diet stuff, maybe, I don't know. I mean, I'm mostly vegetarian, but then, you know, occasionally I'll just eat whatever is available and, um, eat meat from time to time. I mean, um, I had pizza the other day, you know, and I was like, Oh, it's really tasty, but, um, maybe, I don't know what else. I mean, I drive an electric car, I have solar in the house. Like I basically don't buy things ever because sponsors just send me the stuff I'm supposed to use and I use it forever.

1:15:24I don't know what other obvious. Do you ever wear a shirt that doesn't say the North Face on it? No, no. Basically, unless somebody wants to pay me more to wear other free clothes, then I'm like, no, like why would I, you know, kind of like it's crazy. All right, next question. Plus it's so soft and comfortable. Next question. What is your most underrated overlooked superpower? Underrated or overlooked superpower? I don't know, do I have any superpowers? I think you have a few. Underrated. I think you have a few. Well, there's the not underrated superpower, which is just your ability to climb and your relationship with fear and all of that.

1:16:01I would say your skill as a comedian is underrated, as I mentioned earlier. I don't think that skill as a comedian, I think it was just, but no, I think a totally unknown skill, I really like cross wording and I'm quite, no, I'm not quite good in the grand scheme of things, but I can consistently do the New York Times crossword puzzle. Little known facts, I would not have known that. I do it every day. when it loads. Well, that's good. That is an overlooked superpower. Doesn't it get harder during the week? Like Monday's the easiest and then it progressively gets harder? Basically. And you can do it all the way through.

1:16:32I can do them all, yeah. Wow. Not always, you know, and occasionally some are tricky. And actually one of my big compromises now as a parent is that if I finish the puzzle and when you're doing on the app, if you finish it, but you have an error somewhere, you know, it's like, you're not done. And then you could spend 45 minutes like troubleshooting, trying to like switch out vowels here or there, or like try to fix the spelling on something, trying to find it. Or now as a dad, I just hit auto check. And then I'm like, oh, there's my error. And then I fix it and I move on. And it like, it breaks your streak or whatever.

1:17:00And it doesn't count as like sending. I'm like, you know what? I need to go to bed. So that's fine. So I've gotten a little looser in my crossword. Be competitive. Be competitive, Alex is still alive. Yeah, it's all right. All right, next question. I like this like popcorn style. What non-climbing athlete impresses you the most? I don't know. I just listened to a couple of podcast things, uh, sort of comparing, uh, Kobe and Michael Jordan. And I don't know, I have a, I have a lot of respect for athletes like longevity and athletics, you know, something like LeBron, who's had like this incredible career, managed to avoid massive scandals, played at a high level forever.

1:17:38Uh, I just watched some of his games at the Olympics, not in person, but, uh, but I was randomly just by chance. I was, I was in Paris for the Olympics for climbing, but, um, but I was at the team USA house uh the day that they played serbia where they're basically losing the whole game until the last five minutes and then basically just turned it on and and won and won handily and i was just like what a boss you know like like literally every time lebron dunked the whole room and started chanting usa it was like everyone's drunk everyone's like it was it was like a psycho atmosphere at the uh at the team usa house yeah but so i don't know athletes like that people who can consistently perform at a high level for a long career like that do you watch sports on tv no but i'll watch highlights and stuff and you know is there one sport in particular that you favor i mean that's basketball no i like basketball i think um i have a soft spot for for american football like for the nfl which is i feel bad about almost because i'm like oh football's kind of terrible in a lot of ways but i grew up like my whole family loved football growing up and so i just like i know football better than better than other sports like the rules and stuff yeah You mentioned you were in Paris for the Olympics.

1:18:46This question is in there, but in case it doesn't get asked, I'm just gonna ask it. So that people are confused, you weren't there competing. You were there like - No, I was there talking about it, yeah. But the question of course is, if you're such a great fucking climber, why weren't you climbing in the Olympics, Alex? That is a fair question. Now, everybody was like, would this be too easy for you? And I'm like, no, this is literally the hardest climbing in the world. and I spent two months last summer bicycling to Alaska to climb a mountain. You know what I mean? Like that is so far from the athletic training required to be in the Olympics.

1:19:18It'd be like an Olympic gymnast spent a couple months like cycling across America for fun. And you're like, well, obviously that's going to take a big hit on your actual performance. And the people that won the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 24 with the notable exception of the bronze medal and climbing who's 31, but still, and he's like elder statesman at 31. I'm sort of like, you know, it's more akin to gymnastics now where the people winning are sort of 18 to 25. Especially the speed climbing. I mean, it's like spiders running up a hill. It's the craziest thing watching that. Yeah, speed climbing is totally its own thing.

1:19:50I mean, is that like, what is like the climbing, like the mountaineering, like the alpinists, like what is their relationship with speed climbing? Like what is their perspective on that? Is this a real thing? No, most outdoor climbers poo poo speed climbing for sure. They're like, that's stupid. But I actually think it's really cool. And I like that there's sort of a designated track on which climbers can, can measure themselves across time and, and, and across continents and things. I don't know. I mean, um, on my podcast, climbing gold, we interviewed all the American speed climbers and I learned a lot more about it.

1:20:19And I was like, you know, I'm actually pretty into speed climbing. Like in some ways it's, uh, the most egalitarian version of climbing. Uh, cause like weirdly like Indonesia won the gold medal. It's like one of their only gold medals ever. It's like a big deal for them. Um, and the, the guy that won basically there are tons of speed walls in Indonesia because to be a speed climber, all you need is one wall with one set of holds and basically one harness and one pair of shoes. You don't have to open a big commercial gym. You don't need a big facility. You don't need tons of people owning their own equipment.

1:20:47And so it means that anywhere in the world you can have people speed climbing at a high level without a nice facility. And so we've kind of seen that like a lot of the world records in and speed climbing have been like in Indonesia and like Iran and various places that you don't really think of as climbing hotspots. And it's like kind of amazing that it gives other people an opportunity to be great climbers without, you know, like needing the same like climbing culture. Like you don't need the Alps to be, to win a gold medal. Right, right, right. I don't know, I think it's cool. Maybe, you know, that because the bar to access is so low in that context that then, you know, that creates enthusiasm that leads to other things that ultimately later in life can lead them to those places that would be so out of reach for somebody from that part of the world.

1:21:32Totally. No, I mean, the, the, the, the, the Indonesian guy that just won the gold medal, it's like totally transforms his life, his whole family's life, everything about it. I mean, winning gold for a country that doesn't really win like that. It's like, it was insane. Yeah, that's cool. You're like, oh, that's so great. It's like, I mean, yeah, to transform your life through climbing, it's like, people might poo poo speed climbing, but you're like, come on, he still spends his whole life training for this thing that is climbing and it is really, really hard. You're like, you got to respect that.

1:21:59It's also built for TV. I know that's the thing. It's so incredible. Yeah. I think a lot of the like, you know, old school climbers that kind of poo-poo that don't appreciate how hard it is and how much people put into it. But anyway. Next one. Yeah, next one. Let's see what we got. What food in your fridge are you embarrassed to admit that you crave? That's a good question. Man, you get a good, interesting, how much did you have to curate all your questions? Some of them are mine. Some of them are, yeah, yeah, yeah. But these are like, these are pretty good questions. I don't know, our fridge always looks like a sad bleak desert.

1:22:33Our fridge is always kind of barren and empty because my wife and I don't like to shop and we typically have about one day worth of calories left in our fridge at any time. So are you doing like Postmates and ordering in like takeout or what does that mean? No, thankfully we have a nanny that helps with our daughters and she basically just like picks up food from time to time. And if she didn't, I just wouldn't eat basically. I don't know. I just, it just like, it's fine. That just cannot be bothered. Do you have like an unhealthy craving though for like certain food that's not good for you? Yeah, but it's not in the fridge.

1:23:05It's all like cookies and sweets and things. Yeah. Like chocolate, I don't know. But man, like the other day I was in a place that I went past a Cold Stone several times and I was like, I don't really do ice cream because I think I'm kind of lactose intolerant. But every once in a while you're just like, oh, I really want like, I was like, I'm gonna get this Cold Stone. like crazy ice cream concoction. And I'd like pass the store several times. And finally I was like, you know what, I'm going in. And then I went over and there was like a line out the door. And then I got into line. I was like, I can wait.

1:23:33You know, I've been wanting this ice cream for a week. And then the first person in line in front of me was like, you look like whatever. And then he was like, I took a rock climbing class at community college and then started chatting. And I was just like, no, I like can't deal. I'm just laughing. I just totally failed. Cause I was like, I just can't stand next to it. Well, I was like, I just can't stand next to it. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but like, yeah. It was gonna be like a 30 minute line, just like chit chatting with some dude that's like overstoked. I was like, no, especially for something that I knew I shouldn't be eating anyway.

1:24:00Just killed your ice cream. No, it was like God saying, you know, you need to get out of Goldstone. That was exactly, that was exactly. I was kind of like, I took the sign and I just went home and I ate a little bit of dark chocolate instead. I was like, that's fine. All right, next question. This is awesome. Next one. This is climbing gold. Yeah, welcome to climbing gold. If you were such a good climber, why didn't you compete in the Olympics? Oh, okay, we just did that. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I mentioned that because I wanted to make sure that we got to that one. No, maybe the simple answer is that I'm just not that good at climbing.

1:24:29No, actually, well, the real answer is that it's basically like different sports. It's like ultra running versus sprinting. You know, it's like you could win 100 miler, but you're not going to the Olympics. What is your favorite podcast or podcaster? You know - That's a loaded one. Yeah, that is loaded, but I will say, I think you're one of the best interviewers that I've ever worked with anywhere. That's a reason why that's in there. You only had one answer to that question. Yeah, exactly. And you nailed it. I will say I basically don't really listen to podcasts and I don't listen to my own podcast.

1:24:53And I just, for whatever reason, when I'm listening to things, I like it to be music because. So you're not like doing a deep dive on like true crime in your earbuds when you're out of. I hate true crime. I hate true crime. The whole genre I'm like, yeah, I think it's so stupid. But no, I don't listen to that many podcasts, but I will say, yeah, you do a great job. Move on. Yeah, move on. Thank you. Yeah, you're a real professional, but that's why you were an attorney, right? So, I mean, you have a real education. What is Sonny's biggest gripe slash issue with you? I think Sonny probably has a lot of gripes and issues with me.

1:25:29No, I don't know. Yeah, just like what comes up in your marriage? I mean, every marriage, you know, you have to navigate a disagreement and, you know, how do you communicate through like, you know, arguments and stuff like that? Like, so what's the thing that keeps coming up where you're like, I need to work on this? honestly i don't know if there are any big issues like that i think probably the biggest stress around the relationship is time management stuff like me being away her having to like manage more at the house me not appreciating the fact that she's managing more without me things like that i don't know you have to ask her yeah i was gonna say if she was sitting here and i asked her what would she say well that's like i don't know i'm a great husband i'm a good dad you know i think i think she would say so too like i mean we're a pretty good team we do a good job i think that that um that the challenge though is just the fundamentals of my job you know or that if I'm working it you know I sometimes joke that I'm an overpaid day labor you know like if you're doing corporate speaking or something you're basically a day labor you just have to show up in places and like you have to physically be there and do a thing and you know obviously the rates are great because it's corporate speaking but it's like you still have to go to all these places and those are all days away from the family away from home and that's kind of the same for climbing as well for expeditions for tv shows things like that like you have to be gone for in the long periods and that definitely puts a strain on the family, puts a strain on Sonny.

1:26:47But sadly that just can't really be avoided. You know, that's kind of the nature of the work. And so then it's a matter of finding the right balance and making sure that she feels supported. I don't know. Have you seen this movie, First Man, where Ryan Gosling plays Neil Armstrong? That's intense. Very intense, but a lot of like similar, like he's got two young sons, he lost a daughter and he's gotta explain to these boys that he's gonna go on this trip to the moon and he might not come back, right? Like when you saw that movie, did that cause you to kind of reflect on your version of that? I saw that movie.

1:27:22And he's so like, he's got these emotional challenges, like with his inability to like kind of connect with his kids and express himself. That movie was out during the Free Solo tour. So I saw that like while we were touring with the film Free Solo and I didn't have kids yet. So obviously I didn't really connect on that whole level. And also we saw it like an IMAX or something. It was like maybe too intense. It was like too crazy with all the like rattling space shuttle stuff. And I think I came out of it feeling like slightly sick and like sort of, sort of traumatized. So I don't know. I didn't really think about it in that way, but, um, but I don't know.

1:27:51We'll see. I mean, I think, you know, my older daughter is just starting to get old enough that I would feel a slight obligation to explain things to her as if I'm going to be gone for a long period of time or if, you know, if I'm doing hard things or something. So I just haven't really, haven't, hadn't had to cross that bridge yet. Yeah. We'll see. All right. Can we do one or two more of these? Yeah, that's fine. i love little simple questions easy cheesy if i can open the card this one's like really well folded what movie represents climbing with the most accuracy or verisimilitude verse verisimilitude jeez most accurate climbing movie is probably the eiger sanction have you ever seen that old clint eastwood movie terrible film uh it's like an action movie he's in sass and he's a rock climbing assassin is awesome.

1:28:37But the climbing sequences are super legit. And it culminates on the North Face of the Eiger. And apparently a cameraman died while they were filming it by Rockfall. So, you know, it's pretty legit. They were like actually on the mountain. Was that one of the movies that you talked about when you did it? Was it for GQ or who'd you do that thing where you were like reviewing movies and the climbing? I think it was GQ, I can't remember. That's like such an iconic epic. It's one of my favorite things I ever did. That's like the greatest thing you ever did. I know. I don't have many views that thing has, but you just crushed that.

1:29:04I had so much fun doing that. I love doing that. It's so fun. But yeah, that was one of them. And I did say that it's the best climbing footage. It's basically the best, the most realistic, because it's actually slow and measured. And like, because climbing is so undramatic, you know, you watch something like Vertical Limit and they're like jumping out across crevasses with ice axes, you know, like that doesn't make any sense. Like the physics don't even work, you know, like your arms drip out, you die. And you watch the Iger Sanction, the Clint Eastwood movie, and it's like slow and peaceful.

1:29:33And they spend the whole day and they slowly work their way up the wall. And you're like, you know, that's all pretty legit. Like that's basically it. You had words around like Stallone and Cruz and like all these, like these kind of, have you ever like met any of those guys? Is this ever come up? Like, have you ever crossed paths with any of those people? I haven't met those guys, but I met a handful of folks on the free solo tour. Like I randomly met Antonio Manderas, you know, and he made the Zorro movies. And like, when he met me, he told me this whole charming anecdote about, oh, one time when I was shooting Zorro two or something, I did this like fencing scene, like on a post above a big gap.

1:30:07And he's like, and I shot the whole scene and then realized that I hadn't clipped into the safety line. He was like, it was just like free soloing. And I was like, yeah, it's just like free soloing. You know, like that's cool. But I definitely have met a bunch of people that have like anecdotes like that. Like, oh, the one time I thought I was gonna die. And you're like, that's cool. Everybody rolls up on you with their like close to death story. Well, particularly corporate things are like sales meetings, like CEOs and stuff. They're like, oh yeah, I thought about doing that when I was a kid, but you know, I had that one time, didn't work out.

1:30:34You're kind of like, oh no, I'm sure you would have been great. What's the craziest like near death story that has been shared with you in that context? I don't know, like at a corporate thing sort of recently, oh no, it was yeah, whatever, like a businessy event. This guy started telling me the story about skydiving and I thought it was gonna be like a close call skydiving story. And I was like, oh wow, this is crazy. And then it culminated in like, and then I hit the ground and broke both my legs and punctured my lung and blah, blah, blah. and I was sort of like, oh, that took a dark turn. His chute didn't open at all.

1:31:07Well, a classic young 20s male, he had a line over, so his parachute was sort of collapsed in the middle, like it was tangled, and so it wasn't quite working, and he had plenty of time to cut it away and pull his reserve, but he was like, oh, I don't want to lose my chute into the ocean. He was like going to Hawaii or something, and he was kind of like, I can save it, I can save it, and as soon as you're like a 22-year-old who thinks like, I know what I'm supposed to do, but I'm going to do it a different way because I can handle it, you're like, you know that you're making bad decisions, And in this case, yeah, but I really thought that he was going to tell the story is like, oh, and then it was a close call.

1:31:36And then it was like, oh no, I spent six months in the hospital and you know, it was whatever. And you're like, oh my God. Wow. It was like pretty grim. I'm still thinking about the other guy who basically was saying like, yeah, I thought about doing what you did and I think I could have done it, but I just decided to go in a different direction with my life. But that's like, but you get that kind of stuff all the time. Like at conferences, somebody walks up and they're like, oh, you're the guy that freestyled Yellowstone. That's cool. That's cool. I thought about doing that once. And you're like, cool.

1:32:02Yeah, you're like, yeah, freestyle Yellowstone, whatever you think that means, like I'm into it. All right, so good. A couple more crumpled things. Yeah, let me one or two. What are you in a hurry? No, I'm not in a hurry. I'll do two more. What do we got? What is one guilty pleasure you indulge in that people might find surprising? Like desserts, I guess. Yeah, that sort of dovetails with the other one. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I was like, do I have other guilty? Yeah, yeah, probably. You're not like sneaking out at night and going to the strip and pulling the slot machines. No, no. I'm trying to think like my new version of partying, the last couple of times I've been at like party parties where lots of people and people do drugs and people are like partying all night.

1:32:42My new thing is that, cause I don't drink and I don't really do drugs and I don't do any of that. But I was like, now I eat dessert at late night. Like when you hit midnight, you're suddenly like, I'm gonna eat a bunch of cookies. And then you just wind up partying with everybody the whole night. And it's like, but you feel so much better the next day than if you had like drank or done drugs. I don't know. That was the most wholesome answer I could have imagined. Well, honestly, I love dessert, so it's just as good, just as much fun. Everybody's doing drugs and I'm eating cookies. I know, but if you eat all the cookies, you feel just as naughty and it's just as fun.

1:33:11I don't know about that. Go ahead. Is there a support group you attend for people whose amygdala doesn't fire? That's funny. No, I mean, the short answer, no. The longer answer, I mean, it's a whole aside, but the scene in Free Solo just kind of shows us like, oh, his amygdala doesn't work, he's different, whatever. But like the real version of that was that, and this was, that whole scene in Free Solo was because this science journalist wanted to write a long form like article. Anyway, so this is a long ass article in a Nautilus magazine, you can look it up. But the takeaway was that with enough exposure to certain, you know, enough exposure to certain stimulus, you desensitize yourself to it.

1:33:53And so it's kind of like, it's not that my amygdala doesn't fire, is that my amygdala wasn't firing for that level of stimulus. You know, it's like, I'm looking at pictures in a totally safe space, which to me, I was like, obviously that shouldn't be scary. But typically that will light somebody's fear response. But that's because they don't spend their whole life getting scared for their life. You know, it's like, and so I was kind of like, well, yeah, I've spent my whole life getting completely gripped, like scared out of my mind all the time. It's like, obviously what I'm doing in this fMRI machine is not going to be scary.

1:34:22And so, I don't know. I think people see the little short version in the film. and they're like, oh, no amygdala. Like, he's a freak. There's something wrong with your brain or there's some kind of like spectrum-y, you know, aspect about your personality. But actually, I think that really though, that's people sort of projecting their own thing because people always like to see someone doing something outlandish or different. And they're like, well, that must be because they're just fundamentally different. And then I think it excuses them from having to think of the fact that they could do that too, if they worked hard at it for a really long time.

1:34:49You know, cause like, I don't really have - Oh, he can do it cause his brain is different. Yeah, exactly. And I'm kind of like, no, I can do it but because I've spent 29 years spending five days a week training at that thing, consistently trying things that are hard for me and like pushing, like literally pushing hard my whole life. You're like, I don't think you can discredit that with like, oh, it's brains different. You're like, no, come on. Right, the analogy would be like, if you put, you know, like somebody who's been addicted to heroin for two decades, like their hormones aren't gonna fire like a normal person because they're so used to like supercharging them with drugs or whatever, right?

1:35:24So they basically train themselves to need, you know, an extreme amount of whatever in order to like feel something in the same way that you're putting yourself in, in risky situations. And so your relationship with fear has like, has changed as a result of those experiences. So you're not lighting up your brain in the same way. But I would argue that I have a healthier relationship with fear as a result, because, you know, if you're in the fMRI machine and the battery of tests they were using, you'd look at this, the selection of images that everybody looks at, That's like a standardized test.

1:35:54And the images are just black and white cue cards that just like pop up in front of you. And you're laying there totally safe inside this machine surrounded by scientists. You know, it's all chill. Like, why would that be scary? But for the average human, you know, by seeing certain images, it just triggers. Like, your brain just lights up certain ways. But I would argue that's kind of silly because you shouldn't trigger a fear response unless you're actually in danger. And I think that, you know, with many years of climbing in dangerous places, I've sort of conditioned myself to only light up to fear when I'm actually in danger.

1:36:23Actually, I say that, but that's not even true because I get scared all the time when I probably shouldn't. You know, because climbing is just scary. Climbing is like, you only have a rope on and you're climbing and it's all safe. There are still times where you're like, oh, this is kind of scary. Oh, it's insane. And even in watching this documentary, I mean, you guys are like, there's, you know, you're 100, there's 100 feet of rope, right? So you're looking at like 200 feet if you fall, like there's crazy gaps there. So it's not safe at all. Well, sometimes it is. And sometimes though, even when you are safe, it's still just scary.

1:36:51You know, you can be like a couple of feet above your last piece of gear. So you're only looking at a few foot fall. It's totally fine. It's safe. The rope will catch you. And you're still like, oh, I don't want to fall. Like this is a scary position. So even with a lot of experience, like climbing is fundamentally scary. But I think that that does desensitize you to all these other fears in life where, you know, it's like, like being late for your flight is just not scary anymore compared to, you know, thinking about death. What about when you go to like a horror movie? Like if you go to a really scary movie, does that?

1:37:19I hate horror. I never intentionally watch, but partially because - But that idea of like, it's not really, you're not really at peril, right? But something, there's some stimuli that's trying to tell you - Well, that's the thing that I don't like about it is like, so one, if there's like jump cut type things, like when it moves really fast and then all of a sudden it shrieks or something, like you should startle from that. Like you're supposed to startle from that because otherwise, you know, like terrible things will happen to you in nature. And so I'm kind of like, you don't wanna totally suppress those types of reactions.

1:37:48Like if something suddenly flashes into the vision and like makes a loud noise, like you should be startled by that. And so I don't like it if a movie sort of takes advantage of that kind of thing. And then the other end of the horror spectrum is just like things that make you deeply uncomfortable. You know, we were like, oh, someone's being tortured or it's like gore or whatever. And I'm kind of like, I just, I don't like that. You know, like I don't need that. Yeah. I don't know. I never watch horror. I think the whole genre is totally stupid. Basically, there's enough scary stuff in life. Like why do you need to scare yourself on your own sofa?

1:38:17You know, it's like, like just go do something that's actually scary. All right, last one. Okay, last one. Unless it's terrible. Okay. Unless it's not a good one. Unless this one's stupid, then we're... If you had to redo your life with the same dedication to a pursuit other than climbing, what would that be? This is a great question. That was from an audience member. Oh yeah. Man, it's hard to imagine caring about something as much as I've cared about climbing my whole life. Yeah, it's asking you to care about something that you don't care about or to not care about the thing that is like kind of the only thing you really care about.

1:38:49I mean, in a way, I wish I had cared about something that's more fundamentally useful, you know, because like if I had cared about physics as much as I care about climbing, like maybe I could have made some real contributions to human knowledge or something like that, you know, or I don't know. I studied engineering briefly before I dropped out of school. It's like if I'd been really into engineering of some kind, you know, and like invented cool new things, like really, I don't know. The problem with the question is it's asking you to want something that you don't actually want. You know what I mean?

1:39:19So it's hard to inhabit that and figure out what that would be. What do you think would have been the most useful thing to want? But I'm like, I don't know. I mean, or like medicine, like imagine if I could have cured cancer and been like really into, you know, like cell biology or something, like gone deep into how do you save healthy cells or I don't know. But you have the foundation and you have this, you know, passion for the environment and you're, you know, I, you know, it seems like you have a lot of, you know, maybe climbing aside, you still would have done that. And you still have the opportunity to do that.

1:39:51So they're not mutually exclusive. Yeah. I think it's an interesting idea that like, cause I often think like in a different life, you know, like if I hadn't found climbing, like if I hadn't gone to a climbing gym, like would I have just led a totally normal life as an engineer in a cubicle, just whatever. Or would you just get totally into some other path and like go hard and like push hard. I don't know, but I think I'm really lucky that I found something that I love as much as climbing that I've been willing to try the hard. It's a gift, it's a curse too. I think it's a gift. I mean, honestly, I think that's another one of my random thoughts about parenting is like the real goal of parenting is help your child find the one thing that they're like into that much.

1:40:27Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you can't, that's not something you can impose upon them or force. All you can do is expose them to tons of stuff and encourage them and figure out what they gravitate towards and then kind of rush in to support that. Yeah, encourage them to embrace whatever passion they have, you know, like, cause that's the kind of the thing. If someone's into something a little niche or a little weird and you're like, that's weird, you shouldn't be into that. Then you can squash it, but you never know. I mean, like the human experience is so broad, you know, if somebody is into something like go for it.

1:40:55Right. I mean, who would have thought that you could have built a career off of like this thing that you're, yeah, that you're into. And you could have easily been in a situation where you were just dissuaded or somebody just said, this is insane. And you, you kind of like took that in instead of dismissing it. Yeah. I I mean, credit to my parents, they were always just like, you can do anything, you can be good at whatever you want, you know, like that kind of thing. That's a gift also. Yeah. I mean, and I don't know if they said that explicitly so much, but it was sort of always the unstated.

1:41:22Yeah, it's like, you know, whatever you wanna do, you can do it well. Yeah. You're like, cool. So, well, maybe that's a good place to kind of wrap this up. Like that's a good message to put out and an uplifting message to put out to the world. Like if somebody is in that place, like it is a gift to like know at a young age, like this is what I love and this is what I'm gonna do. and like there's just not gonna be anything else except this. Most people don't have that. Like they're bouncing around like, yeah, I kinda like what I do, but I haven't found that thing. To be fair, that makes it sound like I always knew that climbing was my calling, but realistically, I thought I was going to college, I went to college, I didn't love it.

1:41:56Then I thought I was just gonna climb for a little bit. Then I thought I'd probably have to become a mountain guide or become, do some outdoor, I don't know, like be a camp counselor or something, because there's no money in climbing and you couldn't be a professional climber. And then eventually I started to make some money through climbing. It was kind of like, well, I may as well do this as long as I can to see what I can do for myself because I love climbing. And so now, you know, 20 years later, it looks like it was an obvious path, but it was definitely not an obvious path. You know, the whole time you're like, is this a thing?

1:42:22Like, can I be a climber? You know? And I think that's where having the real passion for it, I think has helped to sustain that for so long. Yeah. I mean, I think it's good to hear that because it is easy to form the wrong idea. I don't want people to be daunted by like, because nobody knows that they're on the right path while they're doing it. You don't get to know that. It's only in retrospect that you look back and you're like, oh, obviously. It all makes sense. Yeah. But I mean, did you ever think like, I'm gonna be a podcast. No, it's like absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, you can't, you don't get to see where the path leads.

1:42:56And I think that's a big impediment to people kind of taking that first step because as human beings, our brains, like we wanna know like, well, if I decide I wanna do this, like, where is it gonna lead me? Where is it gonna go? And it's like, you don't get to have that. But that's what I think was the gift for me with climbing is that I love taking each step as a climber. You know, like, I don't know where the path is going. I don't know anything about the path, but every day I'm like, I love going climbing. I love going climbing. And so - The destination doesn't matter. Yeah, and then years later, you're just like, you know, I've been walking down this path of climbing forever and it's great.

1:43:28And you're gonna keep walking it. Hopefully, doing my best. 39 now? 39. That's the other thing, like, couldn't it be like a non-athletic thing that was the thing so that you could do it at your peak for like, it's like you have the ticking clock of like age, you know, that also is a play with anything athletic. We'll see, but I wouldn't be surprised if by the time I'm 50-ish, if I might have just slightly less passion for climbing. If I've just been going hard at one thing for, you know, 40 years at that point, I might be like, you know, maybe I'll chill a little bit. because like I have tried really hard for a long time.

1:44:03You have, I think you've earned a little chill time. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is, no one's gonna blanket that. I wanna climb my whole life, but at some point I do just wanna like do crossword puzzles all day and just eat cookies and just chill. You could do that now if you want. I know, but I'm not ready yet. All right, man, this was great. Thanks so much. I appreciate it to be continued, hopefully. Next time you have something you wanna share. In the meantime, The Devil's Climb premiering on Nat Geo October 17th. And I think then right after that, I think it's going to like - Streaming.

1:44:36Or streaming. Disney plus. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. So check it out, it's great. I love watching it. I love the relationship that you have with Tommy. And it's so much more than just like a climbing movie. Like there's a lot in there for people that, I won't spoil, but everybody should check it out. No, and it's so beautiful. It's like, it's such an incredible - Yeah, it's insane. I know. I mean, just for the visuals of Alaska, like even if you watched it on mute, you'd still be like, this is a beautiful film. Right. Just have it on in the background. Yeah, totally. I mean, honestly, it'd be pretty good background.

1:45:07Yeah, cool. All right, man. Thanks, brother. Thank you. I appreciate it.

1:45:20That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

1:45:59This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

1:46:40Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

1:47:17Yeah!