Malala Yousafzai Is Finding Her Way

31:15I was not surprised, though. I said, of course, if I haven't studied, that's what will happen. But so we did two things. I think one was, you know, the tutor actually wrote to Malala Fund team and my parents that they cannot schedule anything during my college term time. So when I'm in college, it's a full-time role. Like, you know, you are a student. You cannot go and speak at events. And then at the same time, it was getting support at school. If you are struggling with your studies, you should ask for help. There are facilities, there are study centers that have been made for you. Initially, I was nervous.

31:59I thought it was just me and I was somehow doubting myself that, you know, I might be the imposter. Why am I struggling? But I realized that a lot of students actually get help. So asking for help is also really important. But, you know, initially it was on the work side, it was difficult because the events that I went to, whether that was the meeting with Tim Cook in Lebanon or meeting with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at the World Economic Forum. All of these things like helped in the advocacy for girls education. But at the same time, you know, like, yes. Detracting from your own education simultaneously.

32:44Yes. And how, during this period of time, are you reconciling your relationship with your heritage and your culture while also exploring what it's like to be a woman in the West in college? I think it's really hard for women to even be given the opportunity to know what they love and how they want to dress. So the culture that I come from in Pakistan, it is restricted for women to try clothes that are outside that culture. so traditionally we wear shalwar kameez these are like loose modest clothes very colorful and and they stand out and I have proudly worn those dresses on global platforms but I think people just sometimes associated so much with you representing your religion or your culture or you becoming an ambassador that if a woman otherwise is choosing to wear a different dress somehow she is being disloyal to her culture or she's not a good woman anymore.

34:00So I was under a lot of pressure to continue wearing shalwar kameez. But when I went to college, I said, you know, I cannot be wearing that every day because I just want to dress like every other student and students just wear jeans and jumpers or sweatshirts. And it's, you know, it's just like you want to be like every other student. So this whole controversy started when a photo of mine was leaked. Somebody took it. And in that photo, I'm wearing jeans and a bomber jacket. And I'm wearing my headscarf as well. But in the Pakistani diaspora, there was this backlash that I was somehow wearing Western clothes now.

34:51And that was a sign of, I don't know, like I cannot even explain it what to call it. But it's just the hatred that you receive, the criticism that you receive that you're not true to your culture anymore, and you are not a good example for girls anymore and all of that. And at the same time, there were people who are criticizing my head scarf, that I am not a truly liberated woman if I'm still wearing, you know, something that is part of my religion or culture. So I think with both, there were sides that were sort of not happy either way. Maybe the best way to understand it or explain it is to talk a little bit about what it's like to grow up as a young girl in Pakistan.

35:39Like in 2012, had none of this happened and you remained, what is the common trajectory and expectations that are placed on a young woman? And what does that life typically look like? I always say that I was lucky because I had a supportive father who stood with me in my right to education because I saw so many girls not being able to go to school or complete their education because their brothers and their fathers would stop them from learning. So when I imagine a different life in Pakistan, I know that my father and I and my mother, we would constantly be fighting for everything. Can I go to college or not?

36:30Can I be on a campus in Pakistan on my own or not? What do I wear? It would be an everyday conversation. When I received this whole backlash and controversy around my jeans in the UK, it felt like that culture that was like hundreds of miles away from me was still affecting me, that I could not separate myself from it. You know, my mom and my dad, they were receiving calls from our relatives that, you know, why is Malala not wearing the traditional clothes anymore? And my parents also wished, okay, like, you know, sometimes they just wish this, none of this criticism existed and like, you know, everybody was sort of happy.

37:16But I told my parents that I want to be a college student, just like everybody else. I'm not in college for some pilgrimage. I'm here as a normal student, so I'm not going to change what I wear. I'll probably wear my scarf. Nobody can take that away from me. And I will be wearing jeans as well. Nobody can take that away from me. And I will be wearing shalwar kameez sometimes. Nobody can take that away from me either. I think it's about choice. Women and girls should have the right to choose what they wear for themselves.

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42:44There is a boldness in that decision that echoes the original boldness around your activism when you were younger. And I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you where that comes from. Was that instilled in you from your father? Are you just wired for that to be, you know, this courageous person who's testing the outer limits of what's acceptable? I think it's a mix of a few things. My father was such an active, bold advocate for women's rights, so I would look up to him. But my mom as well, you know, she is such a bold, strong woman. She could not complete her education as a kid. She didn't go to school, but she's been learning since then.

43:28So she has inspired me. And then I think for me, it was this realization that when your life is suddenly under terrorism, you cannot be in school and you realize that things are not going to change by itself. Now, if you do not raise your voice, if you do not do something about it, things might remain as they are if you just keep on waiting for somebody else and help you. So I immediately realized that we have to do everything we can, speak locally, speak internationally to media, be part of the protests, raise awareness, like we have to tell the story. But there is a difference between having that awareness and then getting into action.

44:20Like, I'm sure a lot of people, you know, have that aware, like we need to do something, but then there's a lot of, you know, the stakes are very high and you are putting yourself at risk in doing that. And not everybody has the courage or the circumstances or the support behind them to take that leap into, you know, doing the things that you did. For me, the costs of not speaking out were too high. A life without an education was dark. I had seen girls being married off when they were still children themselves, and their lives were unfulfilled. They never achieved their dreams. And that was a nightmare that I was more scared of a life without an education than a life where I was speaking out.

45:14But there was this threat from the Taliban. How has your activism evolved in the period between, you know, addressing the UN and the Nobel Prize, et cetera, to today? It has changed significantly. And it's mostly because of the fact that I have support from people from around the world. I started as, you know, as one activist myself, but today we are supporting more than 400 organizations in more than six countries around the world. And it's the power of collective activism that can really drive change. I still stick to my words when I said, you know, one child and one teacher can change the world.

46:01But I think it begins with one person. But to make that change happen and to make it a reality, we need collective efforts. So I believe in the power of collective activism now. The organization which I started is investing directly in local education activists who are just like me and my father, trying to raise awareness, change a policy, change legislation, make sure that 12 years of education, like both primary and secondary education is guaranteed in every country, in every part of the world. We are supporting activists in Pakistan, Nigeria, Brazil, Tanzania, Ethiopia. And then also most importantly, we are working in Afghanistan, where the Taliban have banned girls from learning.

46:49So we are supporting education activists who are providing education through alternative platforms and are supporting them in their campaign to put pressure on leaders to do more. So you're able to hold on to the idealism that that young 15-year-old had, despite the fact that you're in the world and doing the hard stuff. There's a pragmatism to it. When you have to confront real world problems and you realize, oh, this is more complicated. You know, the fact that you're in so many countries now and you've had so much success, I'm sure there's been many obstacles and roadblocks along the way that have confronted you with the limits of how much you're willing to compromise to, you know, achieve these goals.

47:36I think this is one of the challenges when you start as a young activist. You are ambitious and bold, but you also want the change to happen today. This is what would frustrate me the most because, you know, I would be speaking with a world leader or a prime minister and we would be advocating to them to change their budget or, you know, do more for girls education. And they would nod, they would agree, but then nothing would happen the next day. And I would like talk to my team, like, it doesn't make sense to me. Like, what does advocacy even mean? Like, Like, why is everybody agreeing and telling me my story is so inspiring, but we're getting nothing done.

48:18You know, I want them not to treat my story as an exception, but that this is the story of every girl out there. With time, I realized that advocacy is such a powerful way of activism, but it's also a draining and exhausting process. It could take months. It could take years. It could take decades. And it is significant because when we make that change happen, it can impact millions of girls. So I learned so much along the way. I have learned that we have to work collectively. It is about engaging all stakeholders. And I also learned that we need to just do more for protecting the right to education for every girl in the world.

49:07Like what we're witnessing in Afghanistan right now happening to girls there, you know, it makes me more worried about where we are in the world and how there's like little protection for women and girls. Talk a little bit about Afghanistan and what's going on there. Yeah, I mean, the Taliban are back in control now. It's been four years and they have imposed a gender apartheid on women and girls. This is what Afghan women activists call it. it is beyond just gender discrimination or some cultural norms. They are abusing their power to restrict women from learning, from working, from any appearance in public life, and they punish women if they are seen doing any of that.

49:53The Taliban took over four years ago in August, And that very same week, I was actually in Boston going through my last surgery to recover from one bullet injury by the Taliban. So the Taliban bullet had injured my facial nerve because of which then I had this facial asymmetry, something that, you know, had affected how I looked before. And I went through many surgeries for that. But this was one last surgery to complete this, you know, facial symmetry and hopefully see a bit more progress in like recovering the smile. And so just hearing the news that very same week when I was recovering from that one bullet by the Taliban, to know that now millions of Afghan girls will be living under them and they will be re-experiencing the oppression that Afghanistan had faced 20 years before that.

50:56It was scary. It was like living a nightmare. it's been really challenging time just like witnessing what's happening there but I stay determined it's just a reminder that the words of praise and the recognition and these awards and titles that you know we get or I have been given sure like I appreciate that but what about other girls you know why are we not doing more for them why is it that once somebody has survived and they have a nice story that we go and clap for them. But when they are still under fire, when they're still facing violence and extremism, we look away because it's just really hard.

51:40It's really hard to help others somehow. So, you know, I'm just doing all that I can to support Afghan activists and just to make sure that things change sooner for them. What does that support look like? I mean, you talked about collective action, but if you could remove the obstacles and the barriers and just solve the problem? Like, how would you do that? Like, what are the intractable issues at play that prevent that from succeeding? Many things. You know, we all know that when it comes to this international system, things get so complicated. There are so many wars going on and we are like, you know, can somebody stop them?

52:20I do think that will and intention is really important. and our leaders have so much power, but they look away. So the first thing is like building global pressure on world leaders to hold the Taliban accountable. The second thing is like any conversations that happen with the Taliban, women have to be in those rooms. Women cannot be excluded. They have to be on the agenda as well. And I'm saying this because this actually has happened repeatedly. Any of these peace talks that have happened, women and the civil society were deliberately excluded. It happened last year as well in Doha, in Qatar, where the Taliban demanded that they do not even want to see women in the conversations.

53:10And the UN officials agreed. That shook me that, wait a second. Like if we cannot even like fight for the women to be present in the room, how can we have hope that we will protect their rights inside Afghanistan? And yeah, the battle's lost before it's even begun. And I think it's just repeatedly like understanding that the Taliban are perpetrators. It's not the first time that they're doing all of this. They have been in power before. So they're repeating it. and they're worse than before. So why are they given a second chance? Why are we being told that, oh, this time these Taliban are different and this is Taliban 2.0?

53:56The Taliban have proven it to us in the past four years that they do not see women as equal humans. They treat women as second-class citizens. And it is a form of an apartheid for women and girls in Afghanistan. If you are born in Afghanistan, you cannot be in school. You cannot imagine working. You have to be just dependent on other family members. You cannot have a future for yourself. You cannot be an artist. You cannot be a singer. You cannot play sports. You cannot be in the government. All of these things are taken away from you. When I think about a situation like that and just see the the world feels so helpless, then I worry about women everywhere.

54:39So one campaign that Afghan women are leading right now is to codify gender apartheid in the Crime Against Humanity treaty. And I know it sounds like a bit too technical and might be sounding too complicated to people, but it simply means that we just do not have protection against systemic oppression like that that the Taliban is imposing. And I think it should not just be a topic about Afghanistan. I think it's a topic about women's rights and protection everywhere. If perpetrators like the Taliban, if an oppressive government like the Taliban take over and they use the system to make women as second-class citizens, take away all of their rights, ban them from education and work, Like, what are we going to do?

55:28So when it becomes part of the international law, it not only holds the Taliban accountable, but it then holds every other country in the world accountable for taking actions to put pressure on the Taliban, like not normalize relations with them. It's a war of ideas on the global stage because the tool of diplomacy isn't going to work with the Taliban, you know, face to face. Right. They're never going to change their mind on this. Right. So only by global pressure being placed upon them is there ever going to be any any movement here. Yeah. So I have talked to Afghan activists about this. We support Afghan education activists who are leading these campaigns.

56:11and they all say that, you know, the Taliban need to be pressurized. There needs to be a collective voice from world leaders, but also Muslim leaders as well. I think we need more Muslim countries to step forward. In none of these other Muslim countries are women and girls banned from education and work. So they need to make a clear statement that what the Taliban is doing is actually un-Islamic. There are many ways from, you know, sanctions to other strategies that can be used against the Taliban to put pressure on them right now. Like they're getting the money, they're getting everything. They're sort of like supported.

56:47But so it is worrying. It is worrying if world leaders are just simply issuing tweets of condemnation and they're not going beyond that. What is the current status in Pakistan? How has it changed since 2012? Or has it? So Pakistan is a lot different than Afghanistan, of course. and even like within Pakistan, if you compare the area that borders with Afghanistan, it's very different than the rest of the country. So now with the reemergence of the Taliban in power in Afghanistan, some areas of Pakistan are also seeing the rise of the Pakistani Taliban and these militant groups. And we sometimes hear the news of schools being attacked or girls being threatened not to go to school.

57:32So I do worry, but I don't think it has affected that many parts of the country. But it's like the spillover effect. When an ideology like that of the Taliban is happening in one place, there's no guarantee that it can happen anywhere else. And that's why I'm hoping that more countries will step up and talk about it and just not treat it as a side issue that's happening somewhere else and that doesn't affect them. During your time at Oxford, there's this tension between you trying to discover who it is that you are while also balancing all of the expectations that are being placed upon you. Not just by the world, but also your family.

58:23There's a certain role that you're kind of intended to play. Was there ever a moment during that period of time where you thought maybe you didn't want to be an activist anymore? Maybe you wanted to be a biologist or something else? Or have you remained convicted that this is your life path? Just for fun, yes. I have thought about what else I could have been. And I do ask this question myself all the time. Like, you know, what would that little Malala have wanted? I remember my first dream job was to be a car mechanic because I loved fixing things. I also wanted to be a doctor for a long time.

59:02Then I wanted to be the prime minister of Pakistan. And then I said, okay, like these politicians are also rubbish. So maybe something else. But Benazir Bhutto is still, you know, it seems to me that she's your greatest inspiration. Is that true? I mean, she went to the same school at Oxford, right? Yeah, we were in the same college. Is that part of the reason why you selected that college? No. There were, the college is called Lady Margaret Hall, and it was the first women's college in Oxford. And it's a beautiful college. It has a beautiful library and gardens. Benazir Bhutto went to that college as well.

59:45So the first female prime minister of Pakistan. There were so many like add-ons. And I said, like, I love this place. But the thing that stayed with me when I first visited the college were the gardens and the river that flows by it. And when I was by the river, I just felt a sense of belonging just by being so close to something that I had that I remembered from my time in Pakistan, in Swat Valley, in like in my village, because, you know, we have we have mountains and rivers there. and it just made me feel closer to home. So it's something I just could not explain to anybody, but yes, it was definitely the river and the gardens that I loved the most.

1:00:31But also the library, right? You talk about how you'd only had a couple books, you'd only owned a couple of books in your entire life and then suddenly you're in this prestigious college and there's all these books available to you, but also the intimidation of like, oh my God, I don't even know what that means. Like how can, how are you going to manage that? Yes. And actually women were not allowed to go to other colleges or libraries at Oxford at the time. So this college, when they started like allowing women to study, also started collecting books for them. So there was this whole history behind it, how women just, you know, a hundred plus or so years ago did not have access to education, even in a country like the UK.

1:01:19Do you feel like this path that you're on was divinely inspired for you? Like there's so many unlikely events that have occurred. Just the fact that like you're living this life when you were 12 years old, you couldn't have fathomed for yourself. That on paper doesn't make sense at all. And yet here you are shouldering this responsibility and really like I can feel in your energy like you're owning it. you're standing up and really owning this place, this position that you have in the world. It is true. I have owned this new trajectory that my life has taken. I realized that there was not much I could do.

1:02:05That's just the reality. You cannot go back to the old life. You have to think about the fact that yes you know you have to recover and and security is an issue and you have to restart your school okay like college before you know it you have come like a long way and you realize like I just I I thought out like in my head I thought I would go back to Pakistan I just wanted like to be back with my friends and all of that but um you know like this year in springtime when I went back to Pakistan and when I visited a school that we have started there for girls and it's the first school that is giving education to girls that they can complete up to grade 12.

1:02:54I just was fathoming this moment that if I had not taken this different path, maybe the school would not have been possible. And this has been my dream the whole time to be able to help girls access education, to make their dreams come true. So when I was meeting the first class that are graduating from the school, like for the first time in that whole village, we are having this number of girls, like 30 plus girls to graduate from grade 12. Like it's insane. It's happening. Even though it's like 20, 25, it's happening for the first time. I was like, maybe, you know, maybe for whatever reasons, all that has happened, happened for a good reason.

1:03:39And sometimes I think you have to turn it around. You have to make sure that this new pathway now serves your purpose.

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1:06:47You're not without your critics. One of my favorite parts in the book is when you come across some not so nice things being said about you on Instagram and you decide to do what I think a lot of young people do, which is create a Finsta, like a fake Instagram account. And you fill it with images of bodybuilders and then you start to engage with this person. Does that account still exist? No, I deleted it. I was worried. I was worried. I said, me, bodybuilder, six-packs. You know, I came across this comment on Instagram on a post about me, and this person had threatened me. So I said, okay, like, I want to understand how people think and if I can convince this person.

1:07:34So I started chatting with them and said, why do you want to attack Malala and why do you hate her? That person just was not providing any explanation. He was just saying, you know, she's a bad person, and this time when she comes back to Pakistan, we will make sure she goes to hell. I was shaking when I was texting, and I went to my school friend Alice, and I said, oh, my God, like, here are some screenshots. Like, I don't know how to handle this. And she said, delete your account. Stop chatting. She said, like, never do this. Did you share that with your security detail? I mean, it's sort of like reported, but yeah, it's just you never know who runs these accounts.

1:08:17But how did the experiment go of trying to, you know, confront this person? I, and this is something that I'm still trying to process. You know, when I was young, still in school, and, you know, when I became known as this, like, global advocate for peace and for education, in my in my heart i was just thinking about how we can go and convince every person that girls should be allowed to be in school how can we get rid of hatred how can we spread more love and more compassion um and and i was of the view that somehow like we could magically make everybody think the same way and come to an agreement.

1:09:06And why would that be controversial or something that would open you to criticism? That's not controversial. It's just like, that's how I used to think. That's what I mean. But that's what I mean. Like, all you want is to do this thing that... But I realized that I thought like I could. And I think this is something that we all have to reflect on is that, can we go and convince every person to think like us. And if they don't, what does that mean? Does it mean we hate them? Does it mean we target them? Or does it mean we actually agree to coexist in harmony, in compassion, even if we don't have the same opinions?

1:09:44And that's what I actually am now focusing on. How do we agree to disagree? How do we carry more compassion for each other, even if we do not have similar views. Try to find the common bonds, because before we even realize when we start talking, there's so much that we actually agree on, then we disagree on. So I'm less focused on I want everybody to think exactly like me and more on, I want to hear you and I want you to hear me as well. But beneath that is an assumption that through that process, you can come to some understanding, right? And in this experiment on Instagram, it didn't exactly go that way.

1:10:26No, it was early days. Early days. And I think, you know, you're... Because I wanted to convince the person. I wanted to figure out what do they think deep in their head, you know, and to tell them like, don't hate this person. And I just could not, you know. What do you think people most misunderstand about you? Like if there's a misunderstanding flowing around out there about you that drives you nuts? Many, but I think it's that I am a serious person because I talk about serious issues, which then somehow people assume means I am just boring and serious, but that's not actually true. No, all you have to do is go to your TikTok or your Instagram.

1:11:11Go to my TikTok, read my book, learn about me at college, learn about me, you know, with my now husband and how funny and annoying I am. And so, yeah, I think I want to share a bit more about my humor. And I think for me, it was being true to myself. So these are like true, honest reflections. I have not hidden anything. There are moments that I am I'm like, you know, I regret. I'm like, you know, why would I say that? And why did I do that? But, you know, I sort of was opening up about everything in this book. In the writing of the book, I suspect that just that process in and of itself was its own form of therapy, forcing you to confront your own story and make sense of it as a process of reconciling your past and maybe some experiences that you were deprived of and other ones that you didn't necessarily sign up for, that you were thrust into.

1:12:12What did you learn most about yourself as a consequence of this project? This whole writing process was therapeutic. I spoke with my friends. I went back to my journals. I reflected on many things that have happened in my life. It was difficult, but it helped me get a closer look. And I also realized how there were things that actually saved me and helped me when I was going through the lowest points in my life. So when I had anxiety and panic attacks and flashbacks of the attack, I was introduced to therapy. That changed everything for me. So I was hoping that through sharing my story, I can help somebody out there who might feel lost, who might not know that they could ask for help.

1:13:04I wish I had heard a story like this and I wish I knew that therapy is okay and you should ask for help sooner. So I'm hoping that this can help somebody out there. The mental health journey that's baked into the story. I mean, you didn't have to be as open and honest about how that unfurled as you were. Like your first panic attack was in the aftermath of doing your first bong hit. You know, it's like, and that's, I'm sure, you know, when people read that, they're going to be like, oh my God, you know, just envisioning you doing that. I know. Like, I thought that was going to be the beginning of my, you know, journey, exploring and experimenting things.

1:13:49But that became my first and last bong experience because it just didn't turn out how I expected it to be. I remember that night because, you know, it became a scary night. I was initially like with my friends we were just chatting about college life and we were in the college gardens and they showed me bong and I said oh like what is this they said you know it's sort of weed you try it and like first attempt I coughed on the second attempt when I inhaled it I felt it just went all inside my body and that's when it took a sharp turn because my body froze I could not even move. And immediately I thought I was reliving the Taliban attack.

1:14:39And I felt that I was, you know, I was going to die. You know, it's that time in this induced coma that I experienced after the Taliban attack where I could not understand what was happening, if I was awake or asleep, if I was alive or dead. And in that whole night after this Wong experience, I was sweating, shaking, terrified. I wanted to scream. It was like truly, truly a nightmare. And I could not sleep. I could not sleep because I thought if I closed my eyes, I would die. And it took me actually months to seek therapy. So for like this flashback and then panic attacks started, I was not being myself anymore.

1:15:30But my college friends actually saw that something was not okay. And then one of my friends said that I should see a therapist. And she told me that it's okay. Like a lot of students see therapists. Yeah. So seven years later after the attack was when I started therapy again. And you had to overcome whatever narrative you had in your mind about what therapy meant in order to walk into that first visit. You know, they ask you how was, you know, how are you feeling today? And, you know, and what does that make you feel? I just thought they would never understand my experiences. So when I went to my first therapy session, I thought I would be given all the medication that would make all of these problems go away.

1:16:16And I was like waiting for some treatment for it to be fixed. But, you know, I learned that it was actually a process, you know, learning how your thoughts and emotions are different from the actions and just understanding that this is actually PTSD and anxiety. That's what my therapist told me that it can happen. I think for me, the most disappointing or painful part was that it was happening after such a long time. I thought that I had overcome the attack. It was a story of the past. And somehow it all came back like as if it just happened all over again. That was really painful to process. And I just hated that.

1:17:10I was like, you know, I wish it's not PTSD. I just did not want to have PTSD. But these things can affect you. And I think it's important to raise awareness about it. Because you thought that that would mean that you were weak or because it was going to be so much work to get to the other side of it? I think it was both. I actually felt that I was not living up to the expectation of being brave and courageous. I thought I had somehow failed how I was supposed to be. And I was like really proud of myself before that, look, survived a bullet. Look where I am. I'm fighting for all girls. And suddenly seven years later, I am shaking.

1:17:56I'm getting scared and frightened. You know, when I cannot even figure out what is it that's making me scared. It's, you know, it's this fear from nothing that is really, really scary. But you recognize, of course, the insanity of believing that this young person who was literally shot in the head by terrorists and, you know, wakes up in a completely different world with the world, the entire world paying attention to you. And you're suddenly, you you know, doing all of these things that were so off script from what you thought your life was going to be like, this might be something you might want to talk to somebody about.

1:18:41Like, there's no way anybody could endure that without, you know, having to, you know, kind of grapple with it and reconcile it. Like, it's just, you know, it's the very definition of surviving a trauma yeah uh i think um i feel that the memory of the attack was was there all along i feel like my mind refused to acknowledge it and this uh flashback experience many years later in college was reminding me that maybe I did remember, maybe I did see what the Taliban did. And it was actually scary to comprehend that. At the same time, I was just coming to understand what that means for me now. I still want to be an activist for girls.

1:19:40And am I failing if I feel scared? And I redefine bravery now. I think it is when you still stand up despite the anxiety, the panic attacks, the doubts, the trauma.

1:20:04I call it true courage now, true bravery. Courage and bravery don't presuppose that there is no fear. It's taking the action in the face of that. Yeah, but I understood it the other way around. Yeah. And is it true that you're still with the same therapist? I believe at the end of the book, you were still seeing the same person, but the book ends like five years before today. Yeah, I started seeing the therapist again. Yes. And I'm still seeing her. And if you were to say something to the audience or the person who's watching or listening to this who has some trepidation around therapy? What is that message?

1:20:46I think firstly, it is different for everybody. So I do not call myself a mental health expert, but I am sharing my story of my mental health journey because I want all of you to know that this can happen to any of us at any time in our life. And it's never too late to ask for help. Be there for those who need us and ask for help when you need it. In order for you to do what you do, your work, your advocacy, your activism, to the best of your ability, requires that you place yourself, like you're basically having to re-traumatize yourself because you're exposing yourself to environments similar to the one that you survived.

1:21:42And so it makes perfect sense that this would, maintaining your mental health is like the number one priority in this lifelong mission that you're on because your ability to be an activist at the highest level means that you have to show up as your best self. Otherwise, as we were talking about earlier, you're going to burn out or something's going to, you're going to crack and you're not going to be able to continue to do it. I have started looking after myself. Initially, I thought that when you are an activist, it means you work 24 seven and you do not eat, you don't sleep. But I was wrong.

1:22:20I realized that when I started like looking after myself more, that included like sleeping enough hours or going out for a walk, taking some fresh air. I was actually being more productive. I was getting more done in less hours. So yeah, like fitness has become a whole new thing for me. Well, one thing we share in common is we're both wearing a woo. I was like, I didn't expect you to show up wearing a woo. Yes. I think I love it. But the thing that I'm really scared to look at is my whoop age. That's frightening. The new, yeah, the new thing. I know. It's like you're aging really fast. And I'm like, please don't tell me.

1:23:03Please do not tell me that. What is your relationship with, you know, that kind of data and feedback and also with social media? Yeah. I mean, I say this to everybody. It's supposed to like indicate something. It's supposed to guide you. Do not take it as fixed numbers about where you are in life with your health and fitness. So if it's showing something like, you know, about your fitness level or, you know, your recovery or how good your sleep is, it's just telling you like, you need to change your habits a bit. Like that's the most important thing. But I also panic sometimes when I look at my sort of readings and I'm like, huh, you know, sometimes you're like, you know what, I'm just going to take it off because it's hard to look at it.

1:23:48But yeah, I realized that sleep is the most important thing. You have to start from there. I no longer have vanilla with French fries anymore for my food. I am trying to eat better. You are on this fitness journey, though. You're like sharing on social media, you know, your workouts and videos of you on the treadmill and things like that. And in the book, you talk about discovering fitness as a therapeutic for your mental health and this goal that you had to be able to run an hour and then ultimately facing your fear of the water, like learning how to swim as almost a trust exercise for your mental health.

1:24:31These are places where I could never see myself. So I feel like it's an adventure where you allow yourself to be in unfamiliar environments, trusting water to hold you when you learn to swim or trusting your body to be able to do something. I never thought that I could run or I could play golf. I could hit a ball with a racket. all of these things are just truly magical when you give it a try so I said you know what like it doesn't matter how bad I am at each of these things I just want to play I just want to try it and and I'm like a completely different person when I'm playing a sport I become like so competitive.

1:25:22I become aggressive. And if it's my husband playing against me, then, oh, you know. What are your favorite sports to play then? So we both play golf. I've been taking lessons for more than two years now. And I love it. I absolutely love it. But on the sports tip, I mean, there's also an entire entrepreneur story with you. There is the activism and the Malala Fund and the nonprofit world that, you know, is your focus and your priority. But you also have recess capital with your husband where you're investing in women's sports right now. And you have extracurricular, which is your production company where you're involved in the production of films and documentaries.

1:26:11But maybe start with the women's sports piece. How did you get interested in that and what's going on right now in terms of your involvement? Sports is one thing that both my husband and I are so passionate about. And, you know, we have been following women's sports very closely. We have been going to women's sports games. So we started this farm, which is called Recess Capital, that invests in women's sports ecosystem. And for us, it's this ambition that we want to create more opportunities for women and girls to play and that women's sports should be treated as a sports business like any other male sports.

1:26:53So, you know, I think about girls who are at school and in recess time, They are trying, you know, different sports. You know, the boys can imagine playing like all of these famous athletes that they hear about, and they can think about the leagues where they can make a career. We need to create similar opportunities for girls as well. So I want the recess time to look differently for girls in the future, where a girl can play any sport and she can imagine a career for herself in that. What is the current state of girls' sports in Pakistan? It is gaining some momentum. We are passionate about playing cricket.

1:27:36That is a sport everybody loves. But it's far behind men's sports. We have cricket, which is the biggest sport in the country. We have the men's cricket team and we have actually a private league called Pakistan Super League for men, but we don't have a women's version of that. yet. Which, you know, like if you think about all the sports and how many leagues there are for like men, how many private leagues there are where they could just go and play around, you know, in different places throughout the year and make, you know, a living. There's plenty for men. For women, there's like very, very few.

1:28:20Obviously, the Middle East, there's a, you know, a wide spectrum in terms of women and girls rights and the relationship of those cultures to sports. But it does feel like there is change in some of those regions. I know I've seen it firsthand. I've been to Beirut a couple of times and I did the Beirut marathon and that's a big one for women across the Middle East running. And you see these run clubs of girls and women from all different regions of the Middle East coming to kind of celebrate women in movement through that event. I think things are changing for women everywhere, especially through sports right now.

1:29:10I remember having this conversation with my husband when we were thinking about starting Recess Capital. I asked him what his school life was like as a boy and what sports opportunities did he have access to he said yes all of them like he went to a good school in Pakistan they could play hockey and cricket and football everything and then I was comparing it to my life as a student in Pakistan on a sports day the boys would go to the local cricket ground and the girls had to stay back in the school Like there was just no opportunity, no field, no space for them, no equipment for them. And that makes you think that, you know, if we do not create opportunities for them, if we do not invest in it, like things are just going to be as they are.

1:30:03So I, you know, I hope that more and more people come in and create more opportunities for women and girls in sports everywhere. And, you know, we'll also be doing our part. On the film and documentary side of things, how does that work? What is the model of your production company? Because you've been involved in a bunch of projects at this point already. So my production company has worked with Apple TV. We have two documentaries on Apple TV already called The Last of the Sea Women, which is the story of Korean freedivers. and the second one is Bread and Roses, which is a story of three brave Afghan women who share with us about their life when the Taliban take over and how they stand up to them.

1:30:52We're working on a lot of other projects as well, but now Extracurricular is focusing more on creating sports content to be in sync with the recess capital work. And these are all of a piece with your advocacy work, like thematically. I mean, I have been an activist for more than 15 years now. I understand the strengths of the non-profit world. You know, I have raised more than$200 million and invested that in local education activists. We have changed policies. We have like impacted the lives of millions of girls out there. But I also know that, you know, we cannot limit ourselves to like one path.

1:31:34We have to think about the bigger picture. For me, it is empowering education activists, investing directly in girls. The second thing is storytelling. I believe that storytelling can help us change perspectives. It can help us change the narrative. And that can like unlock opportunities for so many more girls and women. And then the other one is create opportunities and platform for them, like, you know, giving them more power, giving them more tools that we're not just talking about, you know, these the world that it should be, but we are actually getting in and making that happen. I have been asked to give a message of empowerment to girls many, many times.

1:32:18I mean, that's what I've been doing, like inspire girls. And I tell girls, yes, believe in yourself and follow your dreams. But their response to me is like, there are still like no opportunities for us in this field, in this sector. Like, you know, less opportunities in sports, less opportunities in the storytelling world, in the filming world. And so when you reflect on it, you realize, okay, like, I think we need to do more. What if we can be a part of the change where we create and invest in these opportunities for women and girls so that, you know, when they have a dream, they know that there is a pathway to make that dream come true.

1:32:59What are the biggest obstacles that you currently face? In what? Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking like in your day-to-day, like in the many things that you're doing, are there recurring things that come up that frustrate you that you wish you could overcome more easily? Or perhaps obstacles that people might not be aware of that are ever present in you trying to push your ideas forward? I mean, many things, but just right now, I am thinking a lot about how the world of social media is exposing us in such a different and difficult way. um so you know like i i come across all sorts of comments and backlash and responses and i and i sometimes notice that people are talking about what other people are saying or like you know some sort of like a misleading headline they're talking about and i see less effort towards actually getting to know the person so my hope is that you know people if they're interested can know me by like following my work directly more closely rather than just like following some sort of narrative or rumor out there.

1:34:21They can read my books. They can like follow my accounts. They can like see closely what I advocate for, who I am. So yeah, that's sort of one thing I wish for more. And that's why I have like openly talked about myself in my new book. Outside of your relationship with your husband, do you have mentors or other people in your close circle who advise you or inspire you in certain ways? I have a lot of incredible people around me, but it's usually my college friends who I can go to anytime. The same people from the book still? Yes. I think when I'm with them, I don't feel like I have to sound so perfect and I have to like figure it all out when I speak to them.

1:35:11I go to them when I have no clue what I'm saying. And I like, I need them to listen to me and just help me like process my thoughts. And, And I treasure those friends because when I'm with them, I don't feel like they're judging me. I can be myself. And this is a sense of security that I get around them that I absolutely love. So I feel a lot more comfortable when I'm chatting with my friend about anything in life. Do you have a particular project right now that you're energized around or excited about that's on the near horizon? Yes, I'm really excited about the work that Afghan women activists are leading right now to codify gender apartheid.

1:35:59Of course, it's going to be a few years long journey, but the Crime Against Humanity Treaty would open up for conversations in 2026. And I hope that we ask our representatives, our leaders to do more about it and ask them about their commitment to gender equality if they're failing to do anything for Afghan women and girls. So I'm like, I'm excited. I'm optimistic. I hope that we'll be able to shift the narrative and hopefully like drive the conversation in the right direction. So Afghan women and girls have justice. And at the same time, you know, that their future actually changes. They can be in school, they can go to work.

1:36:46When I think about the young version of you who said, how does it go? Like one book, one teacher, one pen. Is that what you said exactly? I said one child, one teacher, one book, one pen can change the world. When you see that young face saying that, it's easy to say, oh, well, that's just the idealism of a young person. But you are proof. You have proved that to be the case. Like it is true. Your life is, you're a living example of that. So when you are talking to or thinking about the younger generation of people, of activists that are out there or people who are aspiring to make a positive impact on the world, do you have a variation on that message now having lived much more life?

1:37:38Like what do you want to say to the young generation of up and coming people who want to do something meaningful? Young people are so ambitious and they're already advocating for justice, whether that is for climate or social issues or communities and people around the world. So I don't think like young people need any advice from me. To be honest, I look up to them and I think more of us should be looking up to young people and actually follow their footsteps. but you know a few things that I have learned from my own experience as an activist are that firstly you know we have to stay truthful you know sometimes it's it's about being true and it's about holding the same values for everyone and talking about a fairer and better like future for every person.

1:38:44So I think like truth is the most important thing. And I, you know, I encourage everybody who becomes an activist who is questioning, like, what should I say? And what should I focus on? Like, like, be true, be true to yourself and be true to the issue that you want to highlight. And truth is sometimes really hard to address and really hard to talk about. But you need to have open and honest conversations and be, you know, be truthful. And the second thing is collective advocacy. I, you know, I admire every person who stands up because they create the spark. They set a direction for others to follow.

1:39:26But it is the work of people coming together that can help us see change. So I think about, you know, when people mobilize each other, but I also think about different sectors coming together from, you know, businesses and private sector to all of these other platforms that we have, we all should be reflecting on how we can play a part. And it should not just be about like NGOs and activists. Or just what you're saying on social media. Yeah, exactly. Basically, you know, that's, that's, you know, a piece in a larger puzzle that you then need to take into the world and actually take action collectively.

1:40:06Yeah. I started my activism at a time when I had literally nothing. My dad and I could only speak and tell our stories. Like that was our weapon. but you know now that I have like a platform like Malala Fund I am doing fundraising to invest in other education activists I think about how you know we are moving and shifting policies you know I've realized that sometimes like putting a statement or a tweet about every issue is is going to do little and I'm not like discouraging it I'm not criticizing people who do that I'm like yes like I need to do it from time to time but sometimes I just think about like more practical actions first before actually consider a tweet I think about you know who can I call um who can we write to um can I can I be at that place can we go and support a local organization there as this is this is like I think about more practical steps and I would encourage other people as well to to think about that on social media like people tweet about something and they feel like they have said the correct thing, even though I think we should not have that view either because there are different nuances and we should actually acknowledge that everybody's coming from a different perspective and they all can be true at the same time.

1:41:38But I think just doing a tweet and then feeling good about yourself, I don't think that is going to contribute to a change. in the long term, we have to think about more ways in which we are shifting conversations, we are mobilizing communities, we are empowering those who are actually doing work on the ground, who are delivering the support. We have to think about how do we hold leaders to account? How do we shift their policies and their conversations? So I sometimes want people to step back a bit. This is all wisdom that you earned, though, as a result of walking the path that you've been on, that you didn't have when the incident occurred.

1:42:26So in the context of young people, they're going to have to figure that out for themselves, I suppose. But I think passing that on is very helpful. Yeah. And I feel like I'm still learning. So I actually hesitate to give any advice to people because I'm like, this is one thing we need to change, actually, when people think they know it all. Actually, there's very little that we know. I travel around the world. I meet incredible people. And every time I learn so much that I'm like, oh, like, I don't think I know anything. Is there an example where you were convinced something was a certain way and only by traveling to the place and engaging with the people there, did you discover that what you believed was incorrect?

1:43:11I mean, many things, but I think about the policy level changes that are happening in Nigeria for those education. And for me, I was like, you know, I can, why don't I just go and sit down with the president and tell him, do this? And he signs the paper and, you know, thumbs up. Education is there for everybody. But that's not how it happens. These activists begin with research. They collect data. They actually give a picture of the reality, like what is actually happening in these communities? How many girls are out of school? What exactly is happening to them? How many schools are there? How many, you know, teachers are there?

1:43:48And they tell us what is actually missing. Then they engage different government officials at different levels. They start that conversation. Then the government officials have to be told, like, this is something that actually benefits your narrative and your manifesto. Governments keep changing. Like, you have to be prepared for when the transition happens and how you have to bring that conversation back. You have to acknowledge that the system is much more complicated. state governments are different than the federal ones, and how do you bring them together? So when I was in Nigeria just a few weeks ago, I was meeting the education activists that Malala Fund is supporting, and they were explaining it to me how some of the policy changes that they are seeing happen in some of the states in Nigeria is the outcome of years of work.

1:44:42So they were able to pass legislation in Adamawa state and in the Kaduna state, which now guarantees 12 years of education to every girl. And, you know, it's like so simple, like that should have been done a long time ago, but it required mobilizing different political bodies, people making committees, doing a lot of research work on the ground, engaging like girls and the local community leaders. There are like religious people who are very influential in the community, engaging them. And it's like when I just follow their stories of how they make the work happen, I realize that it's not simply about doing a tweet and giving one speech that can fix it.

1:45:27It's a combination of all of that. It's a combination of everything. So we have to think in the long term, we have to have like a pathway of when we are doing something or saying something, where are we actually heading and what is it that we want to see in the end? So the work in Nigeria that education activists are doing is truly incredible. Talk a little bit about where that deep commitment to your education came from. I knew that my family was exceptional because I had seen how many girls were missing out on their education. So I like loved every day in school. You know, I have met now kids from around the world and I have seen how like they complain about school and they can't wait to finish their school.

1:46:20It was the other way around for us in Pakistan. My girlfriends and I just hated like finishing school. We wanted to be in our school forever. And whenever we would do like henna on our hands, we would draw like math equations and like, you know, physics, like formula and stuff like that. That's how much we loved it. We were all about school and learning. And what do you make of that? Like, where does that come from? Why is there that difference? You know, whereas as you pointed out, like, you know, in the West, it's like, we just can't wait to get out of school or get out, you know, get out of having to go to class.

1:46:59I think we have seen closely what it means to not have the opportunity to be in school. Like, you know, I remember the days when the Taliban announced a ban on girls' education. It was January 2009. I was 11 years old and all my girlfriends and I could not go to school. And I remember the day when my brothers packed their school bags and put on their school uniform and walked off and I had to stay behind at home. So when you realize that it can actually be, you know, a reality for girls where they're told they cannot learn, they cannot be in school, it frightens you. It scares you for like just the different life that women are supposed to live, where they are, they're just not treated as equal humans.

1:47:54And it's like really, really scary. We see it happening in Afghanistan right now under the Taliban. But we're hearing these stories still from many parts of the world. It's still a reality in many countries. So I think women and girls know because they know the costs of not being in school. And that's why nobody knows the importance of education more than those women and girls. And sometimes I'm asked to explain the importance of education. And I say, go ask a girl. She'll tell you. What is your counsel to the person who says to you, I'm not an activist. I have a full-time job. My life is busy.

1:48:35I want to be involved, but I've never done anything like this before. What are three things that you could share that would be helpful in helping someone like that get involved? I think activism begins with a question like that. It's the will to be able to do something. And for me, the definition of activism is much broader. I do not just see it simply as protesting on the streets or, you know, saying chants all the time. I think we can all be doing activism in private, in public spaces. So, you know, here are a few things that I would like encourage somebody who is interested to do. I think the first one would be to know what they're passionate about.

1:49:28You know, what is it that interests them? What is it that causes anger? Like, you know, what is it that they want to address? I think just knowing what you want to see change is really important. The second one is talk to the people who are working for it. They will tell you how you can be helpful to them. It could be spreading the word. It does not always have to be on social media. It can even be having a conversation with your family members, with your colleagues, or in your workspace. It's when we start a topic or a conversation that can be helping change perspectives in a lot of ways. And just, you know, like never underestimating the support that we give, whether that is fundraising or, you know, bringing attention to the work that these other activists are doing.

1:50:17I think it's still part of the collective activism. You're still so young. You have your entire career ahead of you. Looking into the future, 10 years, 20 years down the road, what does the world look like if you get your way? Wow. I mean, every girl is in school. Education is a right that is there for every child. Like, it's no longer a privilege. I want to see a world where every girl can choose her own future and she can decide that pathway for herself. And I hope that, you know, we all make it come true. And what is your aspiration for the book? what do you want people to get out of reading this book?

1:51:03I hope that this book is a fun, enjoyable read for everybody. I know that there are tough topics in it as well. So I hope that it opens a conversation about talking about mental health or topics like a sense of belonging and how do we navigate through these changes and transitions in our life. and I think most importantly if there is somebody who is going through a challenge in life or a mental health struggle I hope that they know that they can always ask for help and they should ask for help I hesitated in doing that but I'm so happy that in the end I did ask for help and I did start getting therapy that changed everything for me So I hope that it can help somebody out there.

1:51:59Well, I will say that, you know, Malala, you know, I can't imagine somebody who has lived a more different life than I have. But in the specificity of the story that you tell in this book, there's something universal in it because we all have our, you know, our struggles and our mental health challenges. And I think every human being also goes through that process of trying to figure out who they are. Like what part of my identity has been imposed upon me and what part of this is authentically me? I think that's a journey. That's a very human journey. And I think we can all find a little piece of ourselves in this beautiful book that you've written.

1:52:42And I commend you for writing it. And I commend you for the openness and the authenticity. Like, you know, you're exposing yourself in a very real way, but the consequence of that is that I'm able to sit across from you and feel like I'm seeing the whole human. Oh, thank you. Yeah. And I encourage everybody to pick it up, finding my way. And if people want to get involved in what you're doing through the Malala Fund, can you say a little bit about how they can do that? Yes, so they can go to malala.org website. They can see the work that we are doing. There are different toolkits. If you want to raise awareness about the work, you could also donate and support the work that Malala Fund is doing.

1:53:31Yeah, I would really appreciate that. And keep being a troublemaker. Thank you. We did it. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

1:53:44That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful.

1:54:24This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor.

1:55:04And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.

1:55:34Thank you.