Me, But Better: Olga Khazan On The Science of Personality Change, Challenging Fixed Mindsets, & The Big Five Traits That Shape Your Life

27:55And she's saying, you shouldn't feel bad about yourself. But where I think you guys probably agree is we all need connection and we all need community and social nourishment. And you're essentially acknowledging the introvert, but saying, you know, you have needs just like everyone else. And sometimes you have to, you know, step out of your comfort zone and put yourself in social situations to make sure that those needs are being met while also saying, yeah, I'm an introvert. So I need to do that, you know, more sparingly than an extrovert would. Yeah, I think that's very well said. And, you know, I so part of my rationale for trying to become more extroverted is that there's all these studies that extroverts are happier.

28:41and so I called Sonia Lubomirsky who's like this happiness expert. I love her, she's great. She's amazing and I was like, look, like introverts are gonna yell at me like quietly, you know, once this book comes out. She likes that though. She likes to mix it up. I was like, look, like how can extroverts, you know, how can introverts like be happy if they're not extroverted? And, you know, she really recommended like, look, it doesn't mean like you go that you do have to do improv. Like you can go to a book club and listen more than you talk. And that's, you know, still extroversion, quote unquote.

29:14You know, you can go on a hiking trip and hike around and like, you know, take things in and not be chatting the whole time. And that still counts as like being connected with community. So you have this acronym and we have these big five, you know, traits. But before you can begin to go on this journey, you have to basically, you know, get an assessment. Like, where are you on the spectrum on all of this, right? So how did you fare the first time that you sat down and went through that process? So I would say I fared, okay. So I had two things going for me in the spirit of positivity. I was very high on conscientiousness and very high on openness.

30:02The things that were not so good, I was a little bit below average on agreeableness. And I was extremely low on extroversion. I was in the 23rd percentile. So I was very introverted. And especially when it came to being, it said friendly or cheerful. So I was not friendly or cheerful. That's a, you seem, well, whatever work, I didn't know you before, but you seem perfectly cheerful and friendly right now. Yeah, yeah, proof is in the pudding now. And then on neuroticism, I scored in the 94th percentile. Wow. Which, yeah, it was like extremely high was the classification, yeah. So neuroticism is something you're gonna have to focus on, extroversion a little bit, but it all makes sense.

30:57Of course, you're conscientious. Of course, you're gonna be more introverted. You're a writer. And as a journalist, you're not meant to be agreeable. I mean, agreeable enough to convince people to talk to you, but your job is to test the outer edges of people's ideas and to not necessarily take people at face value or trust them implicitly. Yeah, and that's something that I struggled with in that chapter. And something that a lot of people who like, they're like, I kind of wanna be more agreeable, but I don't know. People worry about becoming people pleasers and sort of just agreeing with whatever everyone says or like succumbing to pressure or peer pressure.

31:40That's actually like not agreeableness. That's kind of like a different thing. It's like low assertiveness, basically. It's easy to confuse it for that. I did for a long time. Like you kind of pride yourself on it. Like I'm easy to get along with. I'll just say yes and everybody wants to be around me because you're not being authentic, of course, but what you really are saying is I wanna belong and I'll do anything to belong because I'm so desperate to feel a part of something. It's a betrayal of yourself. So you're not agreeable to your own being. And on some level, you're not even really agreeing.

32:14You're just going along to get along. Yeah, exactly. And what I had to learn is that there are ways to be agreeable, but still stick up for yourself. Like you can have boundaries with people and state the boundaries in a kind way. and not just go along to get along, but still be liked and possibly even be liked more than you would have been if you had just been saying yes to everything. Because there's gonna come a point where you said yes so much that now you have to really throw down the hammer in a not kind way. Yeah, the explosion. Yes. Yeah. Well, what you're saying is agreeableness isn't agreeing with people, it's how you comport yourself in the face of ideas that you don't agree with or somebody who's being unpleasant or who is triggering you or provoking some kind of not great emotion inside of you.

33:08Yeah, and I'll give you a really concrete example of something that I did wrong. So I had a friend who, so I don't like texting to catch up with people. Like I'm fine with texting to like make plans or like, hey, have you heard of this or whatever like short little things, but I don't like kind of long texts about what's going on in our lives. I'd prefer a phone call. And so I had a friend who told me that I had to text her to check in with her every week or else she was gonna stop being friends with me. And of course I was like, okay, okay, whatever you want. Like, I'll do it, I'll do it, no problem.

33:43But of course I can't remember to text her every week because texting is not part of my thing that I do is these text check-ins. So I forget. And then she stops being friends with me. So I talked with a friendship expert who was like, you could have just said, look, I'm really sorry that I've been making you feel like I'm neglecting you or that I don't care about you. But texting is just not something that I'm able to do at that frequency, especially in that way. You know, is there another way that I can catch up with you? Zoom call, you know, phone call, something else. I don't know why, but I just, I never thought of that.

34:16I just thought you had to say yes to whatever people wanted or else they wouldn't like you. All right, well, first of all, Well, that is an outrageous request on behalf of somebody who claims to be your friend. Like, if you wanna be my friend, you have to do homework and I'm gonna check your homework. Like, that's insane, right? And I would take that response that you just, you know, the response that you feel like you could have or should have given that person a step further to say, you said like, I'm sorry I'm making you feel this way. Like, you're not making her feel, You're not responsible for her emotions, you know?

34:54Oh, right, right, yeah. Yeah, it's like the conditions that, you know, she's imposed upon this are pretty onerous. And I would say that somebody who's really a friend or somebody worthy of being your friend is not somebody who would behave that way. Yeah, and I mean, that was a big part of learning about agreeableness is like, when do I set a boundary and when do I kind of just, you know, agree? When do I go along to get along? And it's been handy with parenting because you have to, you can't just say yes to everything when you're a parent. You have to have boundaries. My wife's so good at this.

35:34Like somebody recently, you know, kind of was trying to tempt her into attending something she didn't wanna attend or something. The circumstances are irrelevant, but it was sort of a similar situation of trying to draw her into a web. you know, that she didn't wanna be a part of. And she was just like, yeah, oh no, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. Like, but like was so non-polluced by the whole thing that it was like, oh, okay. You know, like it just passed, right? So setting a boundary without the emotional charge around it would be agreeableness, yeah. Yeah, and then not worrying, you know, are they mad at me?

36:12Are they mad at me? You know, because as long as you didn't yell, you know, you communicated kindly. Because when you really will like ruffle feathers and make people upset is if you say yes so much, find yourself in a situation you don't wanna be in and then at the last minute say no or like, you know, yell at them for always asking you for things. Yeah, this is the plight of the chronic people pleaser. Like I've been in that situation like too many times. And then you resent yourself and then you're mad at that person for no reason. Like it's, and you think like by putting it off or if it's way down the line on the calendar, like that, you know, you'll change your mind and wanna go on that day.

36:51It's a really bad strategy for life. But the fear behind it is you're gonna get exiled from the group or whatever. You're gonna end a friendship. And that's the one thing you're trying to avoid. But everything you're doing is leading you towards that all along. Yeah. Another thing I did for that chapter was volunteer in a homeless shelter. And I was like, oh, these people are like, must be just complete. Sorry, it wasn't a homeless shelter. It was like a day center for the homeless and they served food, served lunch. That was like the main thing happening. And I thought they would be like these saintly people who just, you know, yes, whatever you like, you know.

37:34But they were like kind of tough because they had to be because they're like trying to, you know, feed hundreds of people, some of whom were in active psychosis in the middle of a pandemic in a clean and hygienic and like quick way. And so it was like, yeah, no, you can't have seconds yet. You know, pull up your mask. Like they were kind of tough with their clients. But I kind of realized that they had to be because they, so that they could do this broader project of agreeableness of like getting everyone fed, they had to be kind of strict, you know, individually. disagree like disagreeable on small things in order to meet the agreeableness of the big thing yeah exactly yeah

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41:32The thing that kind of sticks out to me that I'm curious about is just this curiosity I have about your curiosity. because I feel like you are this journalist and you interview all of these amazing minds and you go deep into the social science and research, et cetera, but you're the subject. Like everything that you write about and both of your books are like self-inquiry. Like there's something about you that you're trying to resolve within yourself. And then you go on this journey to try to learn about it. But as a journalist, like you're the subject. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's a lot of psychologists that I talk to have this concept called me search, which is the thing they end up like dedicating their lives to and publishing all these studies on is basically something that's like kind of always been wrong with them or like something that they're trying to figure out about themselves.

42:29And I feel like a lot of journalists have that too. Like it might not be as explicit as mine where they're literally like, you know, changing their personality or going on some sort of journey themselves. But I think a lot of journalists have, they're drawn to a beat that kind of speaks to something within themselves or like they're trying to figure something out or like, I don't know, they had kids and then they, you know, became a parenting reporter because they, you know, couldn't figure out some element of parenthood or something. So yeah, I'm sort of like that in that I've just always, probably because I spent a lot of time by myself as a kid, I have always kind of wondered like why people think the things they do and behave the way they do.

43:17And yeah, so I've just always been drawn to those like big deep questions. So yeah, I'm fortunate that I get to do that for my job. Yeah, I mean, writing is about answering questions, but when the question has to do with something you're trying to figure out about yourself, you're gonna go on this outward journey to answer it, but it's also you have to apply those answers inward. So I always thought that like my unhappiness, like my tendency toward anxiety and unhappiness and sort of, you know, I call it introversion in the book, but it was really just like a lack of social interaction. I always thought that it was, well, the world is just structured in a way that's making me unhappy and it's making me anxious or it's, you know, it's hard for me to make friends because like everyone is bad.

44:05And I think once I started learning a little bit more about the personality science, I'm sort of like, no, I like approach things in a way that's counterproductive a lot of the time because I have high levels of neuroticism and or I don't know how to kind of manage these feelings of neuroticism when they come up. So I think it went from like kind of thinking that like, oh man, my life is so stressful. My job is so stressful. Everything is so stressful. And that's why I'm anxious all the time to like, I think there's something inside me that is making me more prone to stress or making me interpret things that are kind of neutral as more stressful than they need to be.

44:47Well, first of all, those things are also doing something for you. You know, like you address this in the book, like we behave in these errant ways because on some level they are serving us or at one point in time, they did serve us. And so we're reluctant to let go of them and perhaps even more reluctant to see the ways in which they're leading us astray, right? Like when they go haywire, like our strengths become our weaknesses. Oh yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And that was the biggest struggle with letting go of some of my anxiety is that I always thought that anxiety is how I get things done.

45:26Like that's how I get through life. That's how I meet deadlines and that's how I perform. And if I didn't have my anxiety, I wouldn't have anything. You know, I would just like - It's your superpower. Yeah, like I would fall apart. If you didn't have that, like, yeah, you wouldn't be riding for the Atlantic, like none of these things would have happened. Like, you know, the prospect of like not having that would be like taking the engine out of the car. Yeah, yeah. And it can really like interfere with your ability to have self-compassion. Cause you start to think that like, well, if I'm compassionate to myself, I'm going to be soft and I'm not going to try as hard because I'm not going to, you know, be like driving myself to achieve.

46:06And I think in some ways, like that's evolutionarily adaptive, right? Like people who are here today who are kind of anxious, high achievers, you know, they're like ancestors, you know, generations and generations back. Like they were the ones who like spotted the saber tooth tiger or whatever. We come from a long line of people who were anxious and it did something for us. And it's really hard to let go of that. Or you're the exception to the rule and you have built this life and you reflect back on it and see all the people that didn't have this thing that you have. And it's easy to then come to the conclusion that it was because of that.

46:45And perhaps solely because of that, that you were able to do these amazing things. Oh yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, like when I look at people, they got laid off, was it because they weren't anxious enough about their performance or something like that? Yeah, it's easy to tell yourself that story. If you had panic attacks like I did, this would not happen. Exactly, there's your problem. The other part, the other kind of ripple or piece to that is like the urge to control, right? If the world out there would just adhere to like my way of doing things, like all of this would go away and the frustration that people don't behave in the way that you want them to, that amps up the anxiety, but is really fundamentally at its root, like an issue around control or a fear of like letting go or not being in charge.

47:34Absolutely, yeah. So that was a big element for me. And it was, so stay with me, but this is like specifically what was wrong with me was that I had this urge to control. and when I couldn't control the outcomes, when things didn't go according to plan, I would have a lot of self-blame. Like it was, you know, if I had planned to go to a certain beach on a certain day and I couldn't find parking, that kind of thing would like completely destroy me. I would, it would completely ruin, not just that day, but that week. I would tell the story in my head of, I'm a terrible driver, parking searcher. You know, nothing I do ever goes according to plan.

48:15And so that element for me was like, I mean, in Buddhism, they call it the double arrow where bad things would happen. And then I would just hit myself with that second arrow of self-blame. And that was a big part of it for me. Yeah, making the second mistake. It's bad enough that it didn't go well. And now I'm gonna beat myself up for it. But within that, there's a narcissism, like this sense that you're all powerful. Like, I just didn't try hard enough. If I had, then that parking spot would have manifested itself or whatever. It's like, it's a complete delusion. And even if your life is terrible and you're just walking around with this victim mentality, like that is a form of narcissism.

49:01Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. A big thing, so part of what I did, spoiler, is improv to kind of get over some of these things. And a big part of that, which is that makes it so uncomfortable, but also that makes it so helpful is that you can't control anything like you. You can't control what anyone says you you might have the best idea for a, you know, a sketch and like go in there and want to do a certain thing. But your kind of co castmates are going to have different ideas and you have to find a way to make your idea work with theirs. and that kind of feeling of like, it's not up to me how this goes was like very new to me.

49:41Yeah, it was exercise and surrender and a really courageous one at that. I mean, like improv for anybody, let alone somebody who is kind of like at their core introverted and has some neuroticism, like that's really scary. Like that was a, I mean, in terms of like, now we're getting way ahead of ourselves, but like just to finish the thought, as an exercise, like I would have thought like, well, try something a little bit, you know, less challenging first, you know, that's like jumping into the deep end of the pool. Yeah, although it's funny, like in DC, everyone's like, oh my God, you did improv.

50:22That's so scary. And I can't believe you did that. But out here, everyone's doing improv. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Doing these like LA podcasts, like so. Right, right. Yeah, everyone in this city is like done an improv class. I know, I know. Well, it's a self-selecting audience. Yeah. But let's back up a little bit and create a little context here. So essentially what's happening here is you're like, okay, you're leveraging your strength, which is your conscientiousness and you're applying it to this project, right? You're taking, and maybe even with a degree of neurosis, right, like I am going to change my personality and I'm going to like talk to everyone and I'm committing to do it and I'm gonna like write this article about it for the Atlantic.

51:07Like now I'm on the hook, like you created accountability around it and you go deep in and you like your game, like you're trying all these things, like trying to understand if these things in a practical real life context are going to move the needle for you. Yes, my only caveat to that is that I was not like this brave, intrepid person who was like, yay to all these activities. Like probably my first 10 times in improv, I was like, get me out of here. Is this really necessary? Maybe I could just be an extrovert without doing this. You know, should I call my editor right now? At what point did the article part of it come in?

51:51Was that at the beginning where you were like, okay, if I'm gonna do this, like I'm gonna write about it. Like I'm interested in the relationship between the writing aspect of it and just the personal journey outside of like doing it because it's gonna end up on the page. So I always had the assignment, like the whole time I was doing this. So I can't claim. So the idea, like you pitched the idea? Yeah, essentially. Like it was already like, like Olga's gonna change her person or try to. So I always had the assignment. So I can't pretend that I, you know, it just worked out miraculously that they were into this.

52:37But I will say that I've continued, like the book is out, it's done. I don't have to do anything with it anymore. But I will say I've continued a lot of this stuff since the book has come out and since I was done with the book. That's good to hear because in the book, basically you write this article, 2022, did that come out? the article on the Atlantic. Yes. I think so. But then after that came out, then you kind of like relaxed for a while. Yeah. Enough of that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I can quit improv. You relapsed a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, then obviously the book, you know, got you, you know, re-energized around it.

53:16But now in the aftermath of the book, there's a longer tale like you're in. Yeah, I think I realized that I was never really as introverted as I was like telling myself that I was. Like, I think I had this story about myself that I just don't need any social interaction. And I think I kind of actually need quite a lot. Like, I think that's like part of what keeps me going. And so like whenever I, you know, I joined like mom's groups and like I did Bumble BFF like long after I needed to. And like, you know, I kind of am more of a approach person now than a retreat person. Yeah, it took the pandemic for me to recognize that within myself.

54:02Like when it started, I mean, I live kind of out in the middle of nowhere. I like my solitude. I'm happiest when I'm just working on my little projects by myself in a room with the door shut, you know? And so when the pandemic hit, I thought, well, I'm built for this. Like, this'll be fine, you know? And it took quite a long time to realize, you know, to kind of succumb to the languishing of it all and realize like, you know, how much I, that I needed social connection in a way that maybe I had never really reckoned with. Yeah. I think, yeah, a lot of writers were like, oh, there's a pandemic.

54:39Like, you know, like, cause it's your day-to-day life is very insular. You know, you, you, you know, and I was the same. I would do my interviews and then I would write. And if anyone talked to me while I was writing, I would yell at them. And like, you know, I think it, I kind of realized that I was start, I kind of need other people in order to feel like a person. Like I, and one of the experts that I talked to, Jillian Sandstrom, she lives in the UK or moved to the UK as an American and, you know, to teach. And she kind of realized that like, she didn't feel part of the social fabric because she didn't have any friends and didn't like talk to anyone most of the time.

55:21And so she would just start kind of talking to people on public transportation mostly, or like just when she was out and about and starting conversations with people. Honestly, just because like after a while, you start to feel like, am I in a video game? Like, you know, it can feel very isolating. And so sometimes she just has these like little short conversations with people just to, I don't know, feel alive. What does the science say about when it comes to mutability of personality in terms of like what is locked in and genetic and sort of predestined versus aspects of it that truly are variable depending upon like how you engage with them?

56:02Great question. So basically nothing is predestined. And so I will say that, so 40 to 60%, let's call it half, of your personality is inherited or like, or genetic, right? It's influenced by your genes. However, like no one is exactly like their parents, right? Because you get those genes and then they combine in unpredictable ways. Like you can't always, you know, no kid looks exactly like their parents or acts exactly like their parents. You can't always place like, like, oh, this is from mom and this is from dad. Our genes kind of combine in unpredictable ways and then they kind of interact in unpredictable ways with the environment.

56:46And the environment is really what exerts a powerful influence on your personality. So if you're a kid who is a little bit introverted and you spend a ton of time reading and then you become this professor and you end up giving a lot of talks and these things are all gonna influence your personality kind of as you go along in life. If you happen to smile a lot and you attract a lot of people to you and you make a lot of friends, you know, those friends will kind of influence your personality as well. So I wouldn't say that anything is like, oh, my dad had depression, so I'm going to have depression and there's literally nothing I can do.

57:24It's more like, okay, you might have a, you know, proclivity toward that, or you might have it be kind of drawn toward that to some extent, but you still have a fair amount of wiggle room depending on choices that are made for you by your parents in childhood, and then choices that you make yourself in your early adulthood and throughout adulthood. I mean, that alone is so empowering to know. It's a very hopeful message in which we have quite a bit more agency than perhaps we really understand. Yeah. And I mean, you see this with anyone who's ever quit drinking or completely changed their friend group or change their job or gone back to school.

58:06You know, sometimes people just have these like bursts where they're like, I'm gonna do something completely different. And then that, or, you know, either their personality changes and it leads them into a new situation or they're placed in a new situation and it then changes their personality. I often think though, in those context, I wonder, is it a desire to change your personality that motivates like a major life change, like a career change or something like that? Or is it a betrayal of your personality? Like you're walking around like acting in a certain way, but you're like, I'm not happy.

58:45I feel like I'm living someone else's life or this is not for me. I can feel it. to me, it feels like that's almost like a costume that you're wearing. Like you've betrayed your personality and your personality is like, you're like the authentic version of you is, has been muted and repressed and is, has had enough. Right. And is like, come on, like we, we need to like go over here. Yeah. Yeah. So my, my therapist, one of the things she would always tell me is like, that I have a, like a true self and an anxious self and that my anxious self is always like undermining the things that I want. So I do think some people do that.

59:23They end up in a situation that they assumed was right or that they assumed was what they should be doing. And then sometimes it's because we don't believe that we can change, that we continue doing things that are counterproductive or just not a good fit for us or not a good fit anymore. Like you also change over time. And what was fun when you were 22 is not maybe fun when you're 42. Are you familiar with internal family systems like IFS, Scott Richard Schwartz? Yeah, I had him in here. Like from his perspective, like there's, you have all of these like voices and personalities and all of them are trying to perform on your behalf and all these various ways and they're competing, but recognizing them and honoring them like, oh, like, hey, my neurotic five-year-old self, Like, I know that you're doing that because you feel like you need to, to protect me.

1:00:21And I'm so thankful for that. But like, it's cool. Like, we're good. Like you can, you can like chill out, you know? Yeah, I think, yeah. And there is like, yeah, there's an element of personality change to that is like, which side of yourself do you wanna present in a certain situation? I talked to one, another podcaster who has this like alter ego that she kind of like puts on when she has to do some like business transaction, like when she has to talk to her agent or something, she's like, and now I'm a like successful business woman. And she kind of trots out that side of herself, which is, you know, not who she is day to day.

1:01:02Everything that you talk about in the book and you go through is very action-based. You know, it's, you have to do things, you have to get out of your comfort zone. And it reminds me of what Susan David, you know, Susan David, like this, she's this amazing professor of psychology and her whole thing is like discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And, and I think, who was it who said in your book something around confusing for being like a, basically like, I can't remember exactly what it was, but basically like being a betrayal of your personality. Like if it feels uncomfortable, like you shouldn't, you shouldn't do it because I'm not, you know, I'm not the kind of person that does that kind of thing.

1:01:45And disabusing people of that. Like if you want to grow, change, evolve, and engender your life with like more fulfillment and meaning, like it demands that you get out of your comfort zone. So don't confuse that with something else. Yeah. I mean, look, everything that you do that's new is gonna feel uncomfortable the first time you do it. I mean, nobody, you know, who has a baby like goes home from the hospital that first day and is like, I feel totally at ease with this. I feel confident. I know exactly what to do with this baby. I feel like a natural born parent. Like everyone is like a total nervous wreck.

1:02:24Can't believe like they were allowed to leave the hospital with the baby. You know, is like Googling how many ounces at what time, you know. It's anything you do initially is going to feel very, very uncomfortable. The first, like I said, 10, 15 times I did improv, it was extremely uncomfortable. And I think part of it is just like if you have a value or a goal that's on the other side of that discomfort, you can't let the discomfort stop you. You have to just kind of persevere a little bit until it becomes more comfortable. We see this like most explicitly and literally with exercise where like the first time you run, it's like super uncomfortable and you're like, why do people do this?

1:03:05And then you get good at running and suddenly it's like glorious and euphoric. That happens with mental things, attitudinal things too. I found it in my notes. it was Sonia. She said, just because it doesn't feel natural or comfortable doesn't mean it's not authentic. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and authenticity, like the way we think, like people think of authenticity is just what feels good to me, right? And so I would caution against letting that be your guide to everything you do, because not everything that feels good to you is the best thing to be doing at the time. And not everything that's healthy or interesting or that's gonna help you grow is gonna feel good at first.

1:03:48In terms of extroversion versus introversion, if you're introverted and you're perfectly happy and your life is wonderful and fulfilled, like, fantastic, keep doing what you're doing, right? But if you are feeling lonely or disconnected and yearning for a little bit more connection with other people, here's the discomfort that you're gonna have to weather. It's pretty obvious, like you're gonna have to put yourself in social situations that maybe you rather wouldn't that are going to be uncomfortable. And you kind of walk through that. You go all that we've mentioned improv earlier. Like that was a huge, to me, that's like a huge leap for somebody who's prone to introversion.

1:04:27But it feels like that map like is pretty self-evident. But when it comes to neuroticism, like, okay, how do I, what are the contrary actions that I need to take here? Yeah. So what anxious people do that is their reflexive action is to worry. So it's their behavior that they use to cope with the anxiety. If I worry enough, it won't happen. So kind of what the research kind of says that you should do if you have this tendency toward worry is either to limit the worrying to like a worry period. So set aside, you know, five minutes and write down everything you're worried about and then just try to stop.

1:05:16Of course, like anxious people aren't good at stopping thinking. So what I kind of like that I got from Tracy Dennis Tiwari, which is a strategy that has worked for me a little bit is, okay, write down all your worries, write down everything bad that could happen, but also write down everything good that could happen. Because in reality, like most things in life have positive and negative elements. You know, something really frightening or terrible will occur, but then, you know, you'll either find a way out of it or you will gain something from it or maybe it just won't be that bad. You know, maybe you'll buy a new house and it won't have like the XYZ that you were looking for, but it ended up having a lot more space or it was in a cool neighborhood or, you know, positive outcomes are also possible.

1:06:01And I think that is something that I and a lot of other neurotic people tend to lose sight of when we're really in a worry spiral. So that's like kind of your opposite action for that coping behavior of worry. The other things I've heard of for people who kind of struggle more with like the panic side of anxiety, so more like panic attacks, is to actually try to lean into the sensations of panic. So including things like breathing through a straw, getting your heart pumping really fast and just noticing that these sensations are maybe a little unpleasant, but they actually don't hurt you. You're not gonna die from your heart beating fast or from hyperventilating.

1:06:46That panic attacks aren't dangerous. A lot of what is painful about neuroticism is that you are kind of afraid of your feelings. You're afraid of your neuroticism. And so part of what the kind of therapy around this involves is like making you less afraid of the anxiety. So even if it comes, you're not panicking because you're anxious. I have people in my life that I'm close with that are prone to this sort of thing. Even to the extent that it's all consuming, And it's being fueled by news and politics and global events and just this proclivity for future tripping on the disaster that is obviously just around the bend.

1:07:41And it's almost like a fuel source that makes them feel alive and kind of an addiction, right? Like it's energizing, I suppose, on some level. it's destructive, but it's very difficult to, like I'm powerless. Like I can't, you know, like I feel like until someone like that has their own kind of reckoning, like it doesn't matter what you say to them. Like, hey, you know, maybe you should breathe out of a straw or do these things. Like, you know, it's very difficult to get somebody to take that leap and try something different. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, yeah, because those spirals can feel almost like very safe, right?

1:08:26Like when I really get going on a worry spiral, it can almost feel like more comfortable than not worrying because you think that by worrying, you can prevent things from happening. Or maybe you're smarter than everyone else because you can see what everyone else can't see. If they could see what you see. Yeah, but yeah, and I would tell myself like, well, I've always seen everything bad coming or like, but of course I haven't. Like, you know, I didn't see Trump coming. Like there's a ton of stuff that I haven't seen coming in my life. And yeah, but I definitely sympathize with the, I guess, desire to just keep thinking about bad things because you think that that will keep them at bay.

1:09:11I take it that you started doing these things. What are some of the other things that you did and how effective have they been and what has stayed with you or stuck that has led to you being less neurotic? So the main thing that I did was this class called MBSR, which is a meditation class. It's called Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction. And in studies, it's been proven to work about as well as Lexapro. And it's kind of simple when you describe it. It's 45 minutes a day of mindful meditation And then every week there's a Zoom or in-person gathering where they kind of do a PowerPoint presentation of like Buddhism for dummies.

1:09:57Like very, very basic broken down concepts from Buddhism that could be applied for stressful situations. The meditation was extremely difficult for me. It's very hard to focus on your breath, focus on anything but worrying for someone like me. Um, uh, so that was, I think, helpful to an extent, but actually part of it, uh, the part of it that I think was more helpful for me was the, the Buddhism for dummies part. Like, I think I just needed, um, someone to come at me with like aphorisms at the right time when I was truly desperate. And there was something about the shared setting and all of us kind of sharing our struggles and the teacher kind of telling you Buddhism's answer to these struggles that, you know, has existed for many centuries.

1:10:50It was kind of like a relief or it was, I don't believe in God, but people who are like, let go and let God, I kind of like let go and let the universe a little bit. I don't know how else to describe it, but it was just like a little bit of a, you don't have to be in charge of everything working out perfectly, was like the overarching message of that class. And that to me was like, I was like, okay. Like, you know what I mean? It's not up to you. Yeah. Why are you carrying this on your shoulders? Yeah. Why don't you just, you know, drop the rock and surrender a little bit.

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1:14:33There's so much overlap throughout the entire book with how 12-step works. You know, it's like so much, you know, it's like, and in terms of what you just shared, a lot of people come in to the program with very complicated opinions and emotions and histories with religion, faith, spirituality, et cetera. But fundamentally it is a spiritual program, but it's so non-denominational that you get to call God whatever you want or higher power, the universe, or even just the collective group of people that between and betwixt them, share a wisdom that you don't have. Like that's a power greater than you.

1:15:19And in this Buddhism app community, like there was a shared wisdom there that you were able to tap into. But fundamentally it's about like letting go, like neuroticism is about this clutch, right? And when you realize like, I'm not in control here, like there's more going on that I like, like humbling yourself that you're not all powerful. is this cathartic relief. Yeah, it really was like that for me. One of the things, one of the little aphorisms that I came across that I keep coming back to in the course of researching that chapter was actually from David Axelrod, the Democratic strategist.

1:16:00I'm very DC. And he was kind of describing what it's like to work really hard on a political campaign. and then you're working like 100 hours a week, you're doing everything you can to get your guy elected and then come election day, like you have no control and you could lose in a huge way and you have no say in the matter and it is what it is. And what he tells himself is all we can do is everything we can do. Essentially just means like you can push really, really hard, you can try hard, but then you ultimately have to let go. You cannot control the outcome and you have to just be okay with that.

1:16:43And that for me has been really helpful in a lot of ways. You know, book launch, parenting, just day-to-day life. Like you can set yourself up for success. You can set your kid up for success. And then you just have to take your hands off the wheel because you can't control everything. Not only can you not control everything. I mean, Olga, what do you honestly think that you can control? So I, going into this, I thought, I basically thought that if people were smart, they could basically make their lives run flawlessly. And that when my life didn't run flawlessly, it was because I wasn't being smart.

1:17:25That was like my theory that I had, which is not correct.

1:17:33But I'll still, I'm gonna pressure you. I'm gonna keep with this. Like, what do you think you have control over? I mean, oh God, what do I have control over? Like the pants that I put on every morning. I don't know, like I have no. I think meditation has been very helpful to me in helping me really, really get, like really understand that truly the only thing I have control over is my behavior. like how I respond to externalities and everything is an externality that I can't control. Like I can't even necessarily control what my mind is doing all the time. Like it's running its own thing often.

1:18:20And the more I meditate, the more agency I feel I have over that. But it's really just what is my behavior? Like how am I showing up in the world right now? I can't even control what's gonna happen a moment from now. Maybe you'll storm out of here. Like, you know, who knows? You know what I mean? How dare you ask me? But there's a piece in that, but also like a focus. Like, okay, well, now that I know that and I know that when I behave in this way, I'm setting myself up for a higher possibility that X, Y, and Z might happen. But if I comport myself in these other ways that all these smart people who lived before me seem to say lead you towards a better life.

1:19:05And I do that consistently over time. My experience is that my life gets better, but it's better because I'm not attempting to get involved in controlling anything else outside of that. Yeah, I think that's really smart. Something that it has done for me is to make me more aware of anxious spirals and kind of just wave at them as they go by, if that makes sense. Like I can't emphasize enough how much I was - Being more neutral about them. Yes, like I was hitting myself with not just the double arrow, but the triple arrow and the fourth and fifth. Like I was hitting myself with so many arrows because like, okay, I will give you a very, very recent example.

1:19:52Yesterday, we drove down to Laguna Beach to hang out with a friend of mine. And we had that situation. The parking was challenging. The beach we initially had in mind, like the swell was too big and we weren't gonna be able to get in the water. So we had to change locations and it was like kind of a production. And the whole time I was like, it kept popping up like this little gopher. It was like, your friend is mad at you for not making this unfold perfectly. Like your friend, she's mad at you. Like, how dare you like not control the temperature of the water, the swells, the parking, like the Laguna Beach layout.

1:20:28And I, it was very real to me in the moment. I was like, oh my God, she's mad. She's mad. I need to resolve this like very quickly so she won't get mad. And I kind of like, I think it was probably from my Buddhism kind of, I don't know, therapy, some combination of all the stuff I did. I was kind of like, this is so silly. Like, she's not mad. If she looks grumpy, it's probably just cause like, we're all kind of grumpy. Cause this isn't like going super well, like, you know, or like, and like, as soon as we get in the water, we'll feel fine. Like, you know, it was, but that kind of moment of clarity of like, you're kind of anxiously spiraling and that's okay.

1:21:08But like, you don't have to buy into this spiral and try to fix things just because it's there. Yeah. Noticing it as it's happening from a distance as opposed to indulging it. and self-identifying with it. Yeah, and also not beating myself up for the spiral. Right. It's like, okay, you're gonna have a spiral because that's kind of what you do. This is where curiosity comes in, which is a big piece here, right? Talk about your relationship with curiosity. So Judd Brewer is the curiosity guy and his kind of method for treating neuroticism is to get curious about its effect in your body. and this could not be less relatable to me at the start of my project.

1:21:55I have like basically no connection to my body or I started out that way. Like I would end up with like in PT with like all these like cramps in my shoulders and things and have like no idea where they came from after a stressful week. You know, I would, yeah, I would like, I also am like one of those people who bumps into things because I just am not very aware of where I am. You're just all up in your head all the time. So he's like, pay attention to how anxiety feels in your body. And I was like, that's like saying like, pay attention to the purple elephant in the room or something. You know, it's like, what are you talking about?

1:22:30There's no such thing. But just asking that question illustrates the detachment. Yes. That you're detached from your physical being. Yeah. And I really found that it was a good way in particular with panic attacks, which is not my like main issue, but when I do have them, that again, just taking a second and thinking like, oh, wow, my heart's beating really fast. Like, huh, my like, you know, my breath is like, you know, I'm breathing pretty deeply. To me, that was a good way of breaking out of the panic attack and kind of once again, just getting a little bit friendlier with it maybe or just less like, oh my God, I can't have a panic attack right now.

1:23:13you know, I'm in the middle of work or I'm in the middle of X, Y, Z. This happens to me when I'm sometimes when I'm giving a big talk in front of an audience, I still occasionally have like my heart like pounds in my chest. And I start to think that people can hear it somehow. And so previously, my response to this was to like yell at myself internally and say like, stop pounding, stop, like, you know, chill out heart. And of course that does not make your heart chill out. So now I'm just like, huh, there it is again. It's pounding. It's going really fast. I have a fast heart rate because like I'm getting ready to give this talk.

1:23:56And that's okay. Like that's part of what happens when I give talks. And like that, it just like kind of, I don't know, it lets you take a step back from whatever's happening and whatever the anxious sensations are. Yeah, the mindfulness, the awareness that comes with the practice of meditation that gives you just that extra space, like that moment where you are presented with a choice of how to respond rather than just, you know, reflexively reacting. Yeah. That becomes huge, you know, over time. Are you doing the loving kindness meditation? You called Dan Harris a pussy. I know, I know. He was kind of mad at me, but then I think he got over it.

1:24:41I heard the podcast that you did with him. He was actually like, I loved it. So Dan's book helped me so much because he started out as an anxious journalist who didn't believe in meditation and like hated all this stuff. He could be your higher power. Yeah, I kind of needed someone like that because some of the stuff that I was reading when I was trying to get into meditation was like too esoteric. And like, it was for people who are already very Zen and I needed someone who was not Zen and moved in that direction. So Dan's book was really helpful to me, 10 % happier. Yeah, I don't do the loving kindness explicitly anymore.

1:25:20I have to be honest. I don't play the tape and like sit there and do it. I try to just like sort of have it. I was so not loving or kind to myself before that like even just in the moment being like, you made a mistake, it's okay. Like everyone makes mistakes. That's like huge progress for me. That's like night and day. So, but I don't do it actively anymore. On some level, like this, you know, your message is the same. It's like a 10 % happier message. You know, this is, it's like, you're not an entirely different person, but you're probably 10 % happier than you were before you launched into this experiment.

1:26:04Yeah, I mean, even small changes on these. I mean, I think I've moved more than 10 % on my traits that I was working on, you know, cause I was like doing everything I could. All right, and taking the test. You actually have the stats. Yeah. You're beating Dan. I know, I'm so much better than him. You write 20 % happier. Yeah, 20 % happier, take that. Fuck that guy. Yeah, but it is, I mean, no one is ever going to feel like, oh, I'm a completely different person. I'm completely unrecognizable now. You know, you are just going to feel like you're up for more challenges. You feel more capable of taking a new type of job maybe.

1:26:47You feel okay like facing the day without alcohol. You, you know, yeah, meditation is maybe an all right idea. You know, it's all going to be things like this. I actually did, I made friends like by doing the book and that's like, I mean, that was huge for me. I hadn't made a new friend in years. Really? Yeah. Yeah, my friend Alex. Yeah, I'm like sad to hear that, but happy. That I stopped doing that, yeah. A lot of this is again, like back to the kind of AA framework. It's, there's a lot of like fake it till you make it, like act as if, which brings up this idea of authenticity, right? Like, okay, I'm gonna do this thing.

1:27:36If I want to be a sociable person who's like fun to talk to at a party, then I have to like act as if I'm somebody who does that, right? And that's deeply uncomfortable and probably feels deeply inauthentic. So how do you like reconcile that, that like sense of inauthentic, we kind of talked about it earlier, but like that sense of inauthenticity with the aspiration. Yeah, I guess I personally just don't put a ton of stock in authenticity. Like I just don't, because we're all acting so differently all the time. Like - You have that idea of multiple authenticities. Yeah, like there's some, yeah.

1:28:17So yeah, I write that we all have multiple authenticities, But I don't, so when I was pregnant, my mom was like, I can't imagine you as a mother. And I was like, oh my God, like that's so, that's scary. Cause that was like one of the big fears that I had, that I was like, not the sort of person who could be a mom. Like I didn't - What did she mean by that though? She just thought that I didn't have the personality of like what you think of as a mom. Like the nurturing. Yeah, like I wasn't like a cuddly nurturing, nurturing like kind of person. And I was like, maybe she's right. Like maybe I don't have it in me to be a mom.

1:28:56I'm not, I don't have the right personality. And what I kind of realized and like this, my book was already done and I had my kid and that wasn't an experiment, but I was like, your kid brings it out in you. Like you, they, you become like this nurturing, like this, the biggest like hard ass, hard charging, you know, executive lady, you know, take no prisoners, like girl boss is gonna like come home and like coo and sing baby beluga. Cause like you realize you rise to the occasion when you have these goals in your life that are really important to you. And I'm probably not like an Instagram mom.

1:29:32Like I probably, you know, I don't make homemade goldfish crackers for him or whatever, but I like, I think I'm a good mom and I think I'm nurturing and cuddly. It's just that, and I think that's authentic. I think that's authentically me. It just wasn't before I had this goal of being a good mom. What is the most surprising experience that you've had by, you know, I'm gonna put on a new hat and it doesn't feel like it fits, but I'm just gonna keep wearing it until it feels like it's mine, right? Only to wake up later and be like, oh, this is my hat. You know, like, I don't even to think about it anymore.

1:30:10Like I am different in this way. Definitely the extroversion element. I, if I'm being honest, I thought it would be a little going through the motions-y. Like I thought I would, okay, I'm gonna do improv. I'm gonna do, you know, I'm gonna make friends and like, I'll stop talking to them as soon as the book is on. As soon as I turn this in, then I can go back and shut the door on everyone. Go back to watching my Netflix shows. and that really like didn't happen. Like I kind of realized that I have this desire to connect with people. I have a desire to meet more people. Like I haven't met all the people that I'll ever meet, you know, in college.

1:30:52Like I, yeah, I kind of realized that I need to, I'm someone who needs to reach out to people, to connect with people and share experiences and it makes my life better. It's not just like I have to check this box because it's like eating my broccoli. It's something to look forward to. It's something to, yeah, help me feel more stable. Do you think because after turning the initial article in and then, you know, I kind of jokingly said relapse, but you did kind of like go back to your old patterns and then did that create a moment of clarity where you're like, oh, like I thought I could just go back and now I'm back less happier than I was when I was doing those things that I so deeply didn't wanna do?

1:31:38Yeah, maybe it was the quote unquote relapse. I mean, I was drinking a lot during that time. So in a way - All right, well, so you have a co-founding variable in there? Yeah, exactly, yeah. I think it was also just like, I did feel happier. Like everything that I did, all the personality traits that I changed involve an element of like, the person generally feels better afterward. like even introverts who are told to go behave like extroverts for a few minutes, then they go back and the researchers ask them like, how do you feel? And they're like, I feel great. I feel awesome. Sometimes they even say I feel more true to myself than I did before, which is kind of funny when it comes to authenticity.

1:32:21But yeah, I noticed the benefits for me. And I noticed that, you know, the anxiety wasn't doing as much for me as I thought. Like I can still achieve, Like I still wrote a book. I still... I mean, that's huge to be like, I don't need that thing that I thought that I needed. In fact, it was holding me back. Yeah. I mean, it's writing the to-do list, you know, a hundred times as opposed to one time. Like you only really need that one time. You only need to plan. You don't need to worry about the plans or worry, you know, incessantly about things going wrong. And to me, that was kind of a big breakthrough.

1:33:00And honestly, like gives me space to do more stuff because I'm not trapped in worry cycles all the time. Yeah. You mentioned earlier, like volunteering at the soup kitchen. So much of like worry and anxiety is a form of self-obsession. And the antidote to that is to like, go help somebody else, like invest yourself in something bigger than you to be of service in whatever way. Like it's, again, it's another like AA thing. Like if you just, if you wanna break the cycle of this pattern that you're in,

1:33:43turn your gaze outward on somebody who could actually benefit from you showing up for them, even if it's in a small way. Did that come up in the research or what has been your experience with playing around with that? Yeah, I mean, all the studies say that like volunteering you know, feels like making, I don't know, it depends on what study you read, but it's like hundreds of thousands of dollars more a year, you know, if you volunteer for a certain number of hours. And I think it is because of that, because it is very easy to become self-obsessed, especially if you're a creative person. Like a lot of us like have succeeded kind of because we are self-obsessed.

1:34:23We're like going to move to the place that gives us the most opportunities and like, you know, work a million hours and like do whatever it takes. And like, you're always thinking about yourself and your career and what's next. And that has a downside, which is you're always worrying about your career and what's next. And I think it is true that like connecting with other people, sharing your struggles, helping other people, it does help break that self-obsession a little bit. and it just makes your inner weather balmier, as Dan likes to say. One of the things that I noticed in the agreeableness chapter is that every single thing I did involved other people and like less the journalistic, like what did you know and when did you know it?

1:35:11But more just like sharing experiences, kind of like they do in AA. And, you know, sharing your story, relating to one another, giving each other advice, you know, what have you. I honestly think that was like the biggest thing that boosted my agreeableness was like being in community with so many different groups of people because I just don't really do that. Like I don't go to - Sharing their experience. Yeah, like I don't go to church. You wrote an AA book and you didn't even know it. Have you ever been to an AA meeting? I have for reporting, yeah. And then like when I was really, when I lived in LA in grad school, I was really lonely and I was like, maybe I should join AA, except I wasn't like addicted to alcohol.

1:35:51So I wasn't sure. You're like, what's her name in Fight Club who goes to all the meetings, you know, because she's lonely, but she doesn't have any of the problems. Yeah. Yeah, that would be me. I did talk to a lot of people in recovery for the book though, yeah. There's another adage that I love. There's so many like stupid phrases, but one that I really like is mood follows action. And it just, it goes back to this idea that it's action-based. Like if you come into AA and, you know, choose your malfunction, like, okay, you know, you have a problem with drinking or drugs, you go in, you can't imagine, you know, what it, like getting a week sober or whatever, but you just have to like, you know, one day at a time, one hour at a time, like do what somebody who doesn't drink or use does, you know, act as if.

1:36:50and whatever sense of discomfort that you have around it, the mood that you want to inhabit is on the other side of like taking the action you don't wanna take. Yeah. And we have this idea like, I'll do it when I feel inspired to do it, you know? And of course you never do it, right? Like I'll go to improv when I feel like improv-ing, you know? It's like, no. You're never going to feel that way. Yeah, and that's behavioral activation theory is like a big part of this. And that just is like, you go out and do the thing and then mood follows action that you will feel a certain way after you've done it.

1:37:33And so that's really a lot of what personality change involves because you aren't ever going to feel like improv-ing. You're not ever going to feel like quitting drinking. I mean, and some of them were kind of interesting because I talked to one, this didn't make it into the book, but I talked to one guy who quit drinking and then it like set off this like positive chain reaction of other things he wanted to change. And then he actually ended up changing his whole career. He was a lawyer and he's now a therapist or in school to be a therapist. But it was like the drinking was like, I don't know, the thing, like once he got past that discomfort, it was like all these other things were like suddenly more possible.

1:38:12Oh, I could do that thing. I never thought I could do. Like it's a, anytime you take those actions, no matter how small, they're esteem building and they give you a greater sense of empowerment that you can use in other areas of your life. That's the beautiful thing about it. They're transferable, I guess, right? Yeah. But there is a bit of a weird conflict here that I guess is sort of Buddhist. Like there's a self-acceptance piece. Like you have to accept, you have to sort of see yourself clearly, you know, to identify those patterns, to, you know, understand like the behaviors that aren't serving you, like with clear eyes and not judge yourself for that, but like truly accept yourself for that while also accepting that there needs to be things that need to change in order for you to feel as happy and as fulfilled as you know that you can be.

1:39:07Yeah, I still, I kind of wish this was not called personality. I was just called like something else. Well, that's why I was like, where does my mindset, attitude, personality, choice, like all of these things, it is like, it's sort of like we're trying to put a hard science label on something that really resisted. Yeah, yeah. I guess the way that I like settled this and like everyone's gonna settle it a different way is that I'm just like not that attached to my personality. Like I accept myself, like my inner core being, like the Olga who's out in the world trying to do things, but I'm not like, and you have to do it by being an introvert and like, or by being super neurotic.

1:39:49Like I kind of, I'm very loosely attached to the traits that I use to get there basically. And for me, that's like what feels healthiest, but I feel like everyone else comes to a different way to reconcile those two. What's the thing that you're still holding on to? Like when you talk to your therapist and you're like, okay, you're still doing that. How's that working out? Oh, great question. Like the thing that you're just really still don't wanna release your grip on, even though you know it's not good. Yeah. I still, okay. So we have a kid now and he has to meet milestones and milestones are like straight A student.

1:40:36How old is he? Like fodder. So he's 16 months, but they have like, are they rolling over? Are they blah, blah, blah? Are they blah? So he like, when he doesn't meet the milestones, I lose it. I like completely like, I call a pediatrician like 4 ,000 times. I like make him all these appointments. He's already in all these different like therapies to like try to meet the milestones. He's in like occupational therapy, even though he's a baby. I really like, I get obsessive about the milestones and like thinking that I can like make the milestones happen faster or on a certain timeline. So I've been trying to like realize that the milestones may happen when they happen and that I don't have perfect control over them.

1:41:20I think this is a really big piece. I think this is really important. I just know for myself, I have four kids. they're all older now, like our youngest is 17, oldest is 30. You talk in the book about blaming your parents. Like we look at our parents and we wanna like point the finger, oh, I'm this way because of them or whatever. And there's an unhealthy aspect to that. Like we have to take responsibility and agency for ourselves. But also we should recognize that we've inherited, you know, traits and patterns as a result of our upbringing. And we all have unhealthy versions of those baked into ourselves as a result of whatever experiences, the environment in which we were raised or I think the word like childhood trauma is sort of thrown around a little too cavalierly, but nobody had a perfect childhood.

1:42:14And so there's residue of that within all of us that then shows up in our behavior patterns when we're adults. And I think that we have a responsibility to transcend those for ourselves, of course, but really for our children. Like, are you going to perpetuate this generational pattern that could be traced back, however, how far back into your family tree? Or are you gonna arrest it in its tracks so that your child doesn't have to not only inherit that pattern, but have to kind of suffer the consequences of you behaving like that in their presence. And that's the huge, like for me, like that's the whole thing with parenting.

1:43:01Oh yeah. And so this is like, you're like, this is your Mount Everest, I think. Yeah, yeah, being a cycle breaker is challenging. Yeah, and then you do all this work and then you're tired and under duress and then suddenly you're like doing the thing, you behave in the way you promised that you wouldn't. It's so deeply baked into us. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think he was, I mean, it was like just recently, we started out like, we're going to be gentle parents. We're never going to yell at him and we're never going to punish him like in any way. We're going to be super nice. He started doing this thing where he would pull the like childproof cover out of the socket and then to like double up on the danger, he would put that in his mouth, which is a choking hazard.

1:43:46And then he would try to stick his finger in the socket. And I was a triple threat constantly keeping him from doing this. Like, please stop, stop, stop. No, no, no. Let's play with something else. Like you're like asleep deprived, trying to keep a toddler from doing this thing. So I like pull him away from it. He like crawls back over and like does it again. And I like let it rip. I was like, what did I just fucking say? Like, yeah. And I realized I was like, oh, that's like a voice from my past. Like, what did I just fucking say? Like, you know, he's... Judd says like, be curious about that.

1:44:18Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, why did I reach for that phrasing? But it is, it's like they do test you and they test like, what is your instinctual reaction to difficulty? And like, you know, he doesn't know. He's like, oh, this is cool. That's why our children are our teachers because they hold this mirror up to the truth of like who you are, you know what I mean? Yeah. And what a gift you're in a position to give your son because you did all this work, you know, and you took it really seriously and you made all of these changes. Like that is an incredible blessing that, you know, almost no one does.

1:44:58Like it's really an incredible act of service for your child. I mean, to the world also to like, here's what I learned, you know, have at it or whatever. But it's an amazing thing, I think. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I hope it, I mean, I hope it works out. Maybe it was all for him and like, I don't know. If he has a better childhood because of it, then it was worth it. Well, the funny, yeah, It's like when you're a new parent, you're like, here's how it's gonna go. It's gonna be like this. And it's like, I'm always like, oh yeah, okay. Well, check in. I'll see you in a couple of years. Like, let me know how that's going.

1:45:31Only organic snacks. I mean, this will test, you know, all of your control issues. Oh yeah. Every idea that you have about how, you know, who this person is gonna be and what they're gonna do and how you're gonna, you know, parent them through it. Like, you know, you get really tested on that stuff. Yeah. For your growth and evolution. Right, right, right. Yeah, I have tried to resist, like, you know, I know people were like, I'm gonna have kids and they're gonna be pro tennis players just like me. And I'm like, I would avoid putting that out there because if they get a whiff that you want them to be a pro tennis player, they're gonna like do the opposite.

1:46:04Also, like, why do you need them to be, like, what is missing inside of you that that's so important to you that they need to be that, like what's unfulfilled in you that you need them to fill it for you? Yeah. Like, that's not great. Yeah, I don't know. We're trying really hard to avoid like putting our stuff on him. Yeah, it's hard, you know, it's hard. And I just think like any change, even no matter how small is just a really difficult thing that I think people make sound easy and it's not. But in your work, in your personal experience, like for the person who is stuck or is like, I can't get out of this like self-defeating loop or I just constantly get in my way or I am neurotic or I'm terrified of putting myself in the mildest of social situations.

1:47:00Like what are some of the tools that you learned that you practice or that some of these experts have advocated for that can get these people off the couch or in the world and putting this stuff into motion. I will give a concrete tip and then a more esoteric tip. Concrete tip, if you are someone who has trouble, like let's say you're like, okay, I just moved to a new city. I need to meet people. I am having trouble meeting people. I would just sign up for an activity that recurs regularly and that you don't have to organize because it's always gonna be there whether you show up or not, but it would be better if you showed up.

1:47:43So like you've already committed to bring the snacks or you've committed to whatever, it's tennis and they need someone to play doubles. Like it's too hard for introverts to go from couch to like flourishing social life. We need something to like push us out of the house. And, you know, it can be a meetup. It can be a book club. It can be anything where you're not texting people. Let's get together Wednesday. Let's get together Thursday, whatever it is. So that's my specific tip. I would say like more broadly, this comes from Stephen Hayes and is like kind of toward the end of the book. But I would just think about like your values and what you like want in life.

1:48:25I would go back to that definition of personality from Nathan Hudson and the other change researchers and think about like, you know, what is it that you want? Like what does life look like when you're on your deathbed or before you're on your deathbed? What does life look like in middle age? And what's keeping you from doing that? For me, a big part of... I knew I wanted an adult child late in life. And the only way to have an adult child is, of course, to have a baby child. But I was so anxious about becoming a parent. That was a huge obstacle for me. And so you really have to think about connecting your behavior to your broader goals and your broader values.

1:49:12Because that's the only thing that's going to motivate you to actually do all this stuff, which is hard day to day. It gets further complicated when you have an inner model telling you that you're undeserving of these things or you're not good enough. I think a lot of people have that. I suffer from that, from time to time, that's constantly defeating you from that impulse to take that first action. Yeah, it can be tough. I talked to one person, Zach Hambrick, who his parents were like dropping him off at college and they were like, we'll probably be picking you up soon because you're gonna fail out.

1:49:54And like, talk about inner monologue, like he did. He had this monologue that he's not good at school, He's not academic. And what worked for him and for a lot of other people is actually like finding someone else who's kind of like that, who's kind of at your same level and like partnering with them to do whatever it is that you want to do. Like there's this element of like healthy peer pressure that like you learn strategies from one another, you kind of motivate one another, you give each other ideas. And, you know, it won't work if it's someone that you're is like falling far behind you. and it won't work if it's someone who's like so far ahead of you that you don't know how they got there.

1:50:31A lot of times we think of mentorship as like, I need to pick, you know, someone amazing, like, you know, and it really, it can be someone who's kind of at your same level, like as long as they're dedicated to the same goal. So that's what he did. He found like a study buddy. They went through college together and he's actually like a tenured psychology professor now. Wow. Going from like making Ds, I don't know. You're such a high agency person. And, you know, thinking about your backstory, which we didn't even really talk about. I mean, you bounced around, you grew up in like Odessa, Texas, right?

1:51:06Essentially. Midland, yeah. Friday Night Lights territory. Daughter of Russian immigrants and really had to like make your way in the world to become this person. And you did, and it's something to be proud of. But when I think about you, I'm like, oh, well, this is a person who, when they put their mind to something, like they make it happen, right? So why should it be any different when it comes to personality change, you know? But then you read the stories in here and you're like, oh my God, she's so human, you know? Like she has all the fears and frailties that we all harbor secretly or publicly.

1:51:45But I am curious about the person who does, who is living a life in which they don't feel like their actions matter, you know? Like they feel disenfranchised or disconnected and things haven't worked out. Like they don't have that track record to say like, oh, I did this thing in the past and here's how it moved my life forward. I would say that they probably do have a track record. Like they probably have something they're passionate about. You know, it may not be their job. You know, it may not be the city that they live in, but there might be a hobby there or there might be some sort of interest that they have or create, I don't know, creative spark or most of us want something, you know?

1:52:32It's very rare to be so Buddhist that you're okay with like no desires. Then you've actually transcended the mortal coil. You're enlightened at that point, right? Congratulations. Yeah, yeah. So I would just like pursue that, you know, maybe it's not through work. You know, the people that I met in improv, Like one of them was like an accounting professor who lived in the suburbs and like his kids had gone to college and he like didn't have any friends. And like, I don't know. I mean, that's not like a picture of, wow, everyone wants to be this guy. But, you know, he decided to do improv because it was like it would get him out of his head.

1:53:09You know, it was something fun. He met people. It wasn't let's get drunk together, you know. You know, it was creative. It nurtured a part of him that, you know, maybe his daily life didn't really. And I think that's okay. I think it's okay to have, you know, kind of a nine to five and have your interesting thing be afterward. But the point, the most salient point in that for me is just the practicality of it. Like, I think, you know, we were talking about like, what's the difference between personality and attitude and mindset? The same applies when you start talking about values and purpose and meaning and passion.

1:53:51And they're all words, you know, that we share in a well-intentioned way. But I think, you know, it's also confusing. Like, I don't know what my passion is. Like, what's my purpose, you know? And I think it's paralyzing to a lot of people or makes them feel bad. Like, I don't know what my purpose is. I guess I'm supposed to, like, and I don't. Which is why I brought up curiosity earlier. Because like, we all have something we're curious about. And even if it's just like, what's the one thing you're willing to, what's the one little step you can take, you know, to kind of nourish that curiosity and developing that habit alone, kind of like just starts to move your path in a little bit of a different direction without worrying about like what your passion or your purpose is.

1:54:33Yeah, I would not try to identify a passion as your first step. Those things happen as a consequence of acting as if and faking it till you make it and just, you know, getting out into the world and doing things that are uncomfortable until they're not. Yeah, Carol Dweck had a great study. This isn't in the book, but I wrote about it a few years ago where she like basically found that every college student thinks they have to find their passion and that should be their major. That's an act of violence. I have a 17 year old daughter right now and we're going and visiting schools and she feels like she's supposed to know what, you know, cause they're like, well, you can declare your major.

1:55:14And it's like, you're not supposed to know. You shouldn't know. Like the whole point of going is to like explore your curiosity and figure out what excites you. Yeah, and it's not giving up on your passion to change your major either. Like it's part of learning. And some of this, yeah, it can be developed. It's, you know, as you get better at something, you're like, oh, my passion is, you know, neurobiology or whatever, you know, because you happen to be good at it. Well, that brings up the whole subject of like quitting that you bring up in here too, right? As a very conscientious person, like probably quitting is difficult.

1:55:50Like once you say you're gonna do something, like then saying, yeah, I'm not gonna do this anymore. Is that hard for you? It was hard and I wanted to not have too much of an escape route for the book where it's like, as soon as I didn't like something, I could just quit it. because you can't, you can. Yeah. So it was - Like the meetups that you were - Yeah, like, do I keep doing these meetups that are like death marches sometimes or do I, you know, like, you know, can I quit them? I think like, I mean, everyone's gonna come to a different decision. Two kind of things on that note is like, first of all, like I would get less attached to the specific activities that you're doing and more to like what you're working toward.

1:56:36So if you're trying to make more friends, but you're not any good at pickleball, you don't have to stick with pickleball. You can do something else, book club or whatever. So you can change up the activities that are getting you there. And the personality change research, they give them like a list of different things they can do. It's not like you have to do improv. The other thing is something that I've had to realize with having a kid is that like, you can have like seasons of your life where you do different things and that's okay. Like that's not giving up or quitting or you're not being true to whatever your mission is.

1:57:12But like when you have a newborn, you're just not gonna be able to have as active of a social life unless all of your friends come to your house, like during the baby's wake windows. There's gonna be times of your life when you're maybe solely focused on work or focused on having a new baby or whatever other thing. And it's okay as long as it doesn't you know, take over your life. Is that, or has that been a challenge for you as a striver?

1:57:46So our like baby and newborn experience was so all consuming that it was, there wasn't really - It removed the choice. Yeah, like I didn't, like all my friends live in DC, a 45 minute drive away and they're like, hey, come get drunk with us. And I was like, I cannot.

1:58:07So that part was hard, but like babies are just so all consuming that you can't, you're like, this is the season I'm in. I guess the baby decided. It does get harder like later on, like I'm here, he's with my parents and I'm like, am I a bad mom for enjoying myself? No, a bad mom doesn't wonder whether they're a bad mom. Yeah, maybe. Of all the things that you tried and explored, what was the most, like the most deeply uncomfortable of all of them? Maybe beyond improv, maybe it was improv, but we talked about that. The most deeply uncomfortable in some ways was this conversation workshop I went to in London, which was all about having like deeper and more meaningful conversations with people and how to do that.

1:58:57And it was very interesting and good subject matter. but I think I just have like a cultural difference with British people where they're so reserved and even in my introverted state, I am just a lot more garrulous and like overshary at baseline than they are. And I think it like maybe comes off as rude or just like... not culturally like what they want to be happening. What was the context though? We were all in a room together and just talking about conversations and having deep conversations with one another for like three days. But you're going deeper than they are? No. What was it that was uncomfortable about it?

1:59:47So she would like ask us a question like, oh, has anyone ever had this experience? And like, it was just like dead silence in the room. like a long, like no one raising their hand, like a long, long, long silence. So you're like, I have to be the extrovert here. I'm like, I, I, so I would like raise, I was like, does she want me to like volunteer or is this like a normal British silence that I need to just be silent through? You know what I mean? Like there was just like some cultural things where, and then I felt like I was more willing to just like say whatever I was thinking. And for them, it really was like, like the class kind of gave them like permission to like dig deeper and like share more than they would normally share.

2:00:30In that context though, you're like the leader that you're like, you've got the American, you know, kind of like showing them how to like, you know, like talk about their feelings or something, you know? Yeah. I was wondering toward the end, like if they're like, I hope I never see this girl again because she talks too much. I don't know. I really, it was challenging because then like we were strangers basically. And we were like, we would have these conversations where it's like the person shares something. And then like some of the times we would have like these scripted lists of questions. And they were like, what did that mean to you?

2:01:06Or why was that important to you? Which I've learned is like a very good conversational strategy when you kind of don't understand why the person's telling you something. but like you met this person like I don't know 30 minutes ago and suddenly you're asking like you know what did that like breakup mean to you you know it's like you're probably used to it as a podcast host but it's in day-to-day life it can be a little like strange I guess I don't know yeah well you know I keep harping back onto it but like you go to AA meetings like it's like wearing it on their sleeve, you know what I mean?

2:01:40Yeah. But is that being an extrovert or agreeableness? It was just like testing my comfort with being in a situation where I want to be liked and I don't totally understand the culture. Right, I see. So, the discomfort with like not knowing what the rules are. Yeah. And if you don't know what the rules are, then how are you gonna a people please and curry favor and feel like you belong. Yes, because even if you go on a Bumble BFF date in your city, like going on a - Which I didn't know what that was until I read her book. It's like a dating app to make friends. Yes, yes. I didn't even know that was a thing.

2:02:20So let's say, so I like, you know, would go meet up with someone who works like for Congress. Like it's not that different. Like they're not that different from me. I kind of get how the conversation is gonna go. we have basically the same values. Like we're gonna talk for an hour to 90 minutes. We're both gonna have one drink and then we're gonna pay and leave. Like I kind of get it, you know, and we're both not gonna ask anything too weird. But in that setting, it was so strange. Like the questions we were asking each other and the like, just the way we were approaching the conversations. And then I think I just, like I don't fit into British culture.

2:03:00Well, speaking of conversations and not fitting in, I'd love for you to share a little bit about what you learned about how to do this more agreeably. I mean, obviously we're all experiencing, you know, a very interesting moment right now in which disagreeability is paramount and our ability to just share the same space with people and communicate with some degree of compassion and commitment to listening and understanding is very much not happening right now. And we're seeing, and it's like, if we can't figure that out, then democracy will not survive. You know, it's an existential crisis to the health of and future of our country, I think.

2:03:50And it all starts with how two people sit across from each other and look each other in the eye and, you know, communicate and exchange. And this is being threatened profoundly at the moment. So what did you learn about conversation and how to communicate with people who don't share the same worldview. And it's an inflamed situation where every word feels like a provocation. Yeah, it can be so challenging. So there's a psychologist I quote in the book who, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, I'm sorry. It's like, disagreement raises the possibility that we are stupid or wrong. And if you think about it, that's how it can feel.

2:04:37because if I'm telling you that like XYZ happened, you're telling me that ABC happened, you know, one of us is right, you know, or presumably, you know, or one of us is wrong. And then what does that mean about the person who's wrong? Especially when you're self-identifying with that idea. Oh yeah, yeah. What I would try to do is like, break out of the exact facts of whatever you're talking about and try to get at the deeper layer of why that person is telling you what they're telling you. Like they're making some sort of bid for connection even with whatever thing they're saying that is blatantly wrong in your view, you know?

2:05:22And, or, you know, just like, how did that person come about those views? Why are those views important to them? Um, so, uh, I guess I'll give a real example. My parents, um, like, uh, Vladimir Putin. And, um, sometimes I, I, well, I, I haven't been doing this, but I sometimes think that our conversations about him would be more productive if I was like, what do you like about him? Like what, or what does he do for you? What does he, uh, represent for you? why is he meaningful? Like, why are you telling me about him? Like, what do you want me to say in response to this? Because when they like come to me and tell me about Vladimir Putin, like they're trying to do something.

2:06:18They're trying to either like say like, hey, this is really important to me and I want it to be important to you too. Hey, like I'm looking for something to talk with you about, you know? So there's some underlying thing there that is not just like Vladimir Putin, the person. And with admitting that I have not successfully done this yet, I think that if we try to, I mean, not to make the whole world like a mushy kumbaya thing, but like if we try to get more into the feelings that people have that are motivating what they're saying, that can be a more interesting and fruitful conversation than, you know, whatever the specifics are of it.

2:07:02You know, because it's probably something like, I feel like Russians are disrespected wherever they go and he makes me feel respected, you know? And it's like, oh, okay, why do you feel Russians are disrespected? Why is respect important to you? What are some times that you have felt respected? Like there are so many interesting questions and avenues in that direction that aren't like, But do you remember when on June 27th, he said X, Y, Z, you know? Yeah, that's not a productive strategy. But I think the path to empathy and understanding is going beneath it to try to understand the motivation behind it.

2:07:36Because everybody's right from their own perspective, right? And they're being animated or motivated by something that they care about. And that thing they care about is probably something you care about too. And trying to find shared ground there and trying to do it in the context of, you know, scenarios that are inflammatory, you know, makes it difficult, which brings it back to like mindfulness and all these other things that you shared about it because that allows you to inhabit that space a little bit more detached and not threatened by it because you're not wagering your identity. Mm-hmm, yeah.

2:08:18Yeah. And I mean - And to hold your own ideas more loosely too. Yeah. Yeah. Actually at that conversation workshop, that was a little weird. I shared that my parents have this belief because I was the overshare of the group. And there was another guy there who was like, well, you know, like it kind of makes sense from their perspective, right? Like if, you know, if I like moved abroad during like Obama's presidency, I'd be like, he's amazing. even if everyone like in that country didn't like him. There's a pride of where they grew up and it's probably hard for them and they feel lonely and they wanna hold on to what was great about the place that they grew up in.

2:09:04And are they exposing themselves to state-sponsored propaganda? Or like, what's informing this? Yeah, yeah. And so, and that message is probably selling them an idea that, you know, if you believed it to be true, like you would agree with also. Yeah. Yeah. And journalists do this all the time. You know, when we write stories about people, we're like, this person believes this and that's why they want this. And this is the obstacle to them getting that, you know, and here's the story about it. And, you know, we don't start out with like interrogating their belief system or, you know, whatever it is they want.

2:09:43How have you found this just as a journalist who writes for the Atlantic and has written for the New York Times, like in this moment where, you know, there's a distrust of media, institutionalized media and a certain regard about like coastal elitism with respect to this kind of writing. Like when you go out in the world and you interview people or you tell people what you do, Like, do you run up against that kind of stuff? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I mean, it's gotten harder for sure like than 10 years ago to interview, I guess I'll just say conservatives. Yeah, it's gotten harder because there's a lot of anti-media rhetoric.

2:10:29I mean, we try to reassure people, tell them what kind of story it's gonna be, you know, tell them why we're looking to talk to them, give examples of other stories that have taken their ideas seriously. You know, that's kind of all you can do is like sort of be like, I come in peace. And then like they can ultimately make the decision about whether or not to talk to you. I have done stories though, involving lots and lots of conservatives. And I actually interviewed a January 6th participant. I mean, that's a perfect example of like, you know, what is motivating that person? She, yeah. And I think it was like actually a really interesting experience because I was like, I could kind of see, like, I would not do January 6th, but I was like, I get like why, like you put all these things together to lead you to January 6th.

2:11:21Like I get where you were in your life and like what Donald Trump offered you and like why that led to you doing this. Because like, yeah, it just like kind of made sense to me. She's also from my hometown. which is, it helped probably in helping it make sense to me. But yeah, I mean, often like if you just tell people like, look, I wanna understand your perspective on this. I want to know what would make someone wanna participate in January 6th. They're like, okay, yeah, like I wanna tell you. And had you stayed in your hometown and lived that person's life, like you would have made the same choice that she made.

2:12:02Possibly, I mean, yeah, maybe. At least, you know, entertaining the plausibility of that. Yeah, yeah, potentially. Yeah. All right, final parting words. What is the overarching 10 ,000 foot view on personality and our agency to shift it that you want people to walk away with? I would say I wrote recently, like on my sub stack, that a better title for this book might've been You Have It In You, which is just that if there's some challenge in your life or something that you're facing or something unfamiliar that you probably have it in you to face that challenge. Like you probably have the skills and the traits that are necessary to do that and you just need to nurture them.

2:12:52You need to go out and act as if, fake it till you make it and rise to the occasion and you can. that don't let your personality determine the things that you do in life. Yeah, I think we're all, we all have untapped potential that if we're courageous enough to face and wrestle with could make our lives better. I think, and I love that. It's a, you know, again, it's back to like agency. It's very empowering to hear that. I hope so. Yeah, it's beautiful. What are you working on now? What's the next book? What's the next thing that you're asking yourself What journey are you gonna go on now? What's wrong with you now?

2:13:33I've been writing a lot about parenting and like by my struggles and successes such as they are. All right, well, I look forward to the parenting book. Thanks. Olga, this was great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much. Me but better. I am me but a little bit better for having talked to you today. And I think everybody out there listening or watching will be a little bit better for checking out your book, your wonderful book. So thanks for writing it. Thanks so much. Cheers, peace.

2:14:06That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful.

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2:15:26And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:15:48Thank you.