Never Play It Safe: Chase Jarvis On Risk, Creativity, & 7 Tools To Build The Life You Want

28:58Like, you know, and we really recoil at that cost. but the greater cost is the cost to our soul. But we're very dismissive of that because that's something that may or may not rear its head, you know, 10 years, 20 years down the line. And we sort of think, well, we kind of compartmentalize that and rationalize that either that's not gonna happen or you'll deal with that when it comes. And we make this bargain with ourselves that it's fine that we're making this choice. Yeah, and it's a deal with the devil. I truly believe that. And that's part of the, you know, first of all, I'm taking you on tour with me because you just articulated that so well.

29:37But when you actually deconstruct the costs, we talk about it in this way, I think at a very visceral, heartfelt, earnest level that it is, we're trading our soul. But I will articulate and I have, you know, throughout the book, I was hundreds of thousands of dollars into student debt because I took the traditional path. I nearly lost my marriage because I went all in on my career and it couldn't have been better. It looked amazing on the outside. And yet the private jets and all that fancy shit made my wife like, what are you doing? Who are you? And I was like, this is what it looks like. This is what we've been working for for so long.

30:21And she's like, maybe you, where do we get lost? So the toll, it's easy to say, ah, it's mask and it's difficult. But if you really look closely at your own life, doing the stuff that everybody else thinks you should do, there are every bit as many trappings there, financial, social, familial, as there are with any other risk. Again, that's why the book starts that way, right? Safety is an illusion. It's all risky. so you might as well take the risks toward the things that you love and then it gets really scary because you have to understand what is it that I really love? Most people don't wanna look hard enough.

31:03It's rather just cool. What's next? If it's like at a conveyor belt sushi place, rather than ordering what you want, you're just happy to take the next thing off the conveyor belt. I'm imagining the person who's listening to this right now or watching it and thinking, yeah, okay. That's great. Like, yeah, but you don't understand my life and how complicated it is. And I don't have the flexibility to make those kinds of choices. Like my life is the way that it is because it has to be because of my specific circumstances. And, you know, look, everybody has, you know, their external constraints. There's a chapter in the book, by the way.

31:43But also I kind of think it speaks as well to just how powerful our defense mechanisms are around this. because what you shared is very confronting. Like if somebody is disconnected from their heart, maybe they don't know what it is that they feel like they're here to do, but they're just making it work with whatever they have or whether they do know or they don't know, everybody wants to be able to go to sleep at night and feel good about like the choices that they're making and to suggest that maybe there's a different way is it's a terrifying prospect. It is. And again, just referencing the book, that the defense mechanisms are so powerful.

32:30But if I remind you that, well, it's difficult to look at these things because your attention has been hijacked, because you've always been told that there's not enough time, because you've been taught to ignore your intuition, because constraints were always there to keep you down, because work was always before play, because failure was not a gift, because no one ever taught you how to practice all of these things. Like those are the chapters of the book, those individual words. These seven levers. And yet that's why it's so easy to see this defense mechanism for the people that were feeling, you know, left behind in this conversation, or it's easy for you to say, because I have all of these, like that's two things happening.

33:22One, the world is doing a little bit of work on you. That's true. But what's more true is you're doing the dirtiest work on yourself.

33:36After hosting more than 900 episodes of this podcast, I have noticed a pattern. And that pattern is that the highest performers don't buy into the latest trendy hacks. Instead, they obsess on what actually works, which is always the unassuming basics. And there is nothing more basic than hydration. But here's the kicker. Your body can't hold on to water without the right minerals. Without them, water is just like this temporary visitor. But Element has cracked the code on this, which is why I've been using it religiously for years. zero sugar, no artificial junk, just sodium, potassium, and magnesium in the ratios that actually work.

34:17And look, I'm not exactly crushing ultras right now, healing from this surgery, but in some ways I need it even more. In order to properly recover, I need to treat my body even better than ever so it can heal properly and expeditiously while also maintaining my focus and my energy levels to rock out all of these podcasts, write a book, be a husband and a dad. And I gotta say, Element keeps my brain firing in a way that water alone can't. Their new sample pack features their most popular flavors. Citrus salt, raspberry salt, watermelon salt, that's my favorite, and orange salt. Eight stick packs total, perfect for finding your favorite or sharing with a friend.

35:00Get a free eight count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt.com. slash richroll, find your favorite element flavor, or share it with a friend. We're brought to you today by the wonderful folks at Go Brewing. Let me tell you a story. A few years ago, this guy Joe Chura rings me up out of the blue, and he asked if I'll fly out to Illinois and speak at this event that he was hosting called Go, which ended up being this really incredible weekend oriented around taking inspired action. Joe and I hit it off, but, you It wasn't until I ran into him a couple years ago at Jesse Itzler's Running Man event that I realized that he had taken inspired action himself by creating this new enterprise that was also called Go.

35:48Go Brewing, in fact, which from Go has grown into what it is today. One of the most exciting revolutions in craft brewing. One of the many things that makes Go Brewing extraordinary is that they don't outsource like most companies. They handcraft everything from scratch in small batches. In fact, this commitment to quality has fueled their growth into one of America's fastest growing breweries now in over 5 ,000 locations across 20 states and available online. The Salty AF Gelata earned the untapped number one non-alcoholic lager in the United States. And they're constantly creating bold new flavors almost every month that push the boundaries of what non-alcoholic beer can be.

36:29Double IPAs, mouthwatering sours, all with zero added sugars and none of the junk. Hear that? Incredible stuff. The non-alcoholic revolution is here, people. I am proud to help champion it alongside Joe. So get on board by getting with Go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code RICHROLL for 15 % off your first purchase. Go.

37:01When it comes to health, sleep is a big deal. And there's just so much science out there to back up the role that it plays in every facet of well-being, from heart health to mental health, recovery, cognition, and just being able to show up as your best self. Getting a quality eight hours per night is a personal, non-negotiable that I go to great lengths to ensure. It's sort of a commitment not only to myself, but to my career and to those that I love that all begins with what I'm sleeping on. Now, I've tried many mattresses, but the one that's really won my heart is Birch. And there's many reasons for this, all of which boil down to the simple fact that Birch just does things right.

37:41In addition to being incredibly comfortable and cool, helping you regulate temperatures at night, which are essential for quality rest, Birch mattresses are also firm in all the right places, and all their materials are sustainably sourced, including organic fair trade cotton. and also everything is hypoallergenic and toxin-free, meaning no harmful off-gassing typical of most mattresses. Birch is so confident in their product. They're offering both a 100-night risk-free trial as well as a 25-year warranty. Plus, they provide free delivery right to your door in a conveniently-sized box-up. And so I want to offer all of my listeners the chance to enjoy a deep and restful night's sleep with a new mattress from Birch.

38:28So right now you can get 27 % off site-wide plus two free EcoRest pillows with mattress purchase. Just go to birchliving.com slash richroll.

38:46We focus on all of these externalities that are driving our decision-making. But fundamentally, we kind of live our lives blithely, kind of refusing to look inward to identify and deconstruct all the things inside of us that prevent us from making those better choices. Yeah, and to me, that was the, again, I was in the middle of experiencing that and had just come through that chapter for myself, which is like, all right, I gotta get real. I gotta get real honest with myself because what I'm learning in this process is like, shit, all this stuff is right there, all of the tools. It's sort of like I'm trapped in this cage that wow, looks suspiciously like I made this and all of the tools to get me out are right there.

39:33But this one looks too heavy. This one looks too sharp. This one's a little bit, you know, it's just like I'm unwilling to go into these tools. And to be clear, I wanna like the tools, they look like one looks like a key, one looks like a lever. I mean, they're pretty simple tools. It's not like we don't know how to use them and it's not like they're completely unfamiliar or that working with them would be a stretch. Like we know how to do all of this stuff. It's right there for us. And yet both the world and ourselves, we do some dirty work and we are content with the things that we're looking at right now.

40:12Like you said, you don't, oh, sorry. You don't understand my individual situation. And I hate to break it to you. I don't need to understand your individual situation because the tools are the same. The tools to get out of your situation are the same. And if you can either do one of two things, one, agree that I'm here by choice and decide to love it or decide to change it. Those are your options. And I'm asking you to take a look at those things. And it's a little bit, it is a little bit. I mean, tell me, were you confronted with like - Well, no, you're very kind of like gracious and welcoming.

40:45And it's not, you're not like - I throw myself under the bus. You're not like doing a Goggins and, you know, like basically, you know, like telling people - Thank you for saying that. Stop, you know. Don't be such a wizard. Yeah, it's not like that. I guess what I'm saying is it's coming from, you know, a sensibility of trying to empower the reader, obviously. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is like, it's also, I don't want you to feel alone on this journey. And this is why, hey, guess what? Everybody's doing it. Yeah, this is a spectrum disease. Like we're all somewhere along this, you know, road.

41:21and on some level, everybody has made decisions maybe that weren't in their own best interest because of external pressures or because of whatever voices in your head are, you know, defeating you from taking that leap. But why don't we go through them? I mean, the first one is, the first one's attention, which - Not an accident. Yeah, there's, we often say like, oh, you know, time is our most precious resource and it's the one we so willingly give away, but truly it's our attention actually is the thing that, we have tremendous agency over, but which we spend the least amount of time, sort of with any kind of concentrated awareness of where we're directing it and why.

42:03Yes, what I would add to that is brilliant statement, clarifying statement of that. And your experience of your life is entirely contingent on where you place your attention. I mean, it's not an accident. One of the examples in that chapter is of Viktor Frankl, 1942, he's in, you know, he's basically in a concentration camp and his decision where to place his attention, he has the benefit of being a psychologist. So he's aware of the power of the opportunity here and his decision, what to pay attention to and how to seek meaning in the most horrific of all situations ends up, you know, being a very valuable experience for him and for the people that were exposed to him while in that camp.

42:51And so, you know, by extension, if you can be in the worst fathomable situation and still direct your attention in a way that can provide meaning and value, well, what if you weren't in the most extreme horrible situation? So if you You take it quite literally like you are, the experience of your life is what you pay attention to. If you wanna see the good in the world, you can. I would spend more time in nature. If you wanna see what's horrible with the world, spend more time on social media. So the choice of where to place your attention is yours. And that's a radically simplified example. But if it's as fundamental as I say and believe it is, then why don't we practice how to direct it?

43:40And why are we so easily distracted? And this is not about completely transforming your life, lighting everything on fire and becoming a monk. This is about how do I do this within the time and the space that I have? And there are a handful of things, practices that you can employ to help learn to direct your attention. And I cover them in the book, but it's not like, we're not talking about soul reinvention here. No, it's subtle. It's a very subtle kind of gentle nudge and thing that you can continually remind yourself of. It's not an upending of your entire life, but it is a radical act in that you're saying, I'm actually going to exert agency over how I direct my attention rather than just allowing it to do whatever it wants, which I think is for the most part is what most of us do.

44:32And we just, it just goes where whatever's stimulating in the moment and we're not even actually aware, conscious or even exerting any kind of decision-making power over it like, oh, I'll scroll. I have a few minutes, I'll scroll. What's on Netflix tonight? Oh, the news is on. Like we're just, we're literally just ping-ponging around without ever saying, hold on a second. Like, what am I here to do? Oh, I can't, I'm distracted. I can't, I can't do my work or like, or I'm tired now. I need to go to bed, but you can actually improve this. This is a skill just like anything else. And you're not, it's not like you just, you are as you are like anything, like going to the gym, you can actually learn to improve how you direct your attention.

45:17Use the example of like, you know, a flashlight, like how narrow do you want that beam? And, you know, when you're directing it towards the thing that you've identified is important to you, by definition, it has to darken all these other areas of life that you're used to paying attention to. And that's just sort of part of the bargain. You know, many of, that's a popular phrase where attention goes, energy flows, or, you know, that to me is very simple and true. What you pay attention to expands, that becomes your world. As you said, the other things darken and you're able to see more clearly, like the way that I work, not to get into all photo nerd stuff, but in a sea of darkness, when you point at a flashlight and you look at the brightest place, your eyes adjust to that and the rest of the world literally gets darker.

46:06Like that's the function of the, you know, the opening, the iris of the eye. I think it's the iris. And so exactly as you articulate, that is controllable. That is up to you with anything in life. And And people, it's really easy to cast blame. And yes, there are, we get sort of 20 ,000 ads per day. Yeah, I mean, we've never lived in a more attention hijacked environment than today, which means that it's all the more urgent that we draw our attention to attention. Meta self-referential reference there. Yes, and it's not just the external stuff, it's the internal, like what's going on. That's the harder part.

46:51What's going on between your ears, that attention. Am I like, are you aware that I'm talking right now and how do other people perceive me and how do I? So it's not just that your screen is around and there's a bunch of ads getting served to you. It's like, are you running this 2 million year old organ between your ears or is it running you? Because. And what is that loop? What is that narrative that keeps circulating in your brain? And choosing to put the narrative that you want in there and you deciding what your brain will do, like you are not your brain, right? The mind and the brain are different things because you are the observer to your brain.

47:32If you can observe your thoughts, you are not your thoughts because otherwise you couldn't observe them. Not to get too meta here, but to me, that is just a great reminder how important that is, that the most important words in the world are the ones that we say to ourselves. Yeah, there's the external factors that hijack your attention. It is the internal ones though, that are quietly, the ones that are most deserving of examination. And what you realize when you become an observer of those thoughts and you start to see patterns, like the things that you tell yourself, right? Which are generally negative.

48:11I don't know about you, like, I don't know who those people are who are walking around telling themselves that are awesome all the time, like, God bless you. Yeah, give me some of that juice, bro. But you know, it's that trope of like, you would never, you know, treat a friend the way that you treat yourself with whatever those messages are. But fundamentally in becoming the observer, you realize like, it's a story. You know, it's just a story, like where that story came from, childhood things that happened to you, whatever, it doesn't matter. But that story was assembled unconsciously. Like you didn't actually make a conscious choice to construct that story.

48:47It's formed from occurrences, memories, things that happened to you, choices that you made. But the kind of looping of it is constantly affirming it, right? And I think the real epiphany comes when you realize you can deconstruct that and start to build a different story or you can put it to the test. Like, is that really true? Let's look for evidence otherwise or whatever. and obviously these are mindfulness practices and they're incidents of developing a meditation practice, all these things that you talk about in the book. But I think that's the real driver of all of these decisions. It's not the billboard that you see when you're driving down the car.

49:29And yes, when you feel uncomfortable, you'll pick up your phone and scroll, but like what is the source of that discomfort? That's an internal thing. For sure. And all these reasons, it's the rationale for it being the first chapter of the book. And it's a lot. And yet I couldn't put that chapter somewhere else in the book because it's so foundational. And once you have even the most basic practice and you are able to start to see that, or if you're listening to the show right now or watching it and you realize that I do that, I beat myself up verbally or whatever, I wonder what it'd be like to not do that just for a minute.

50:07And when you do find that little space to not do that, everybody I know is like, well, that was very pleasant. Maybe there's some more of that available to me. It's not just that it reduces your stress and gives you that sense of feeling calm. It is the only opportunity in which your intuition and whatever your heart is trying to tell you can be heard. Yes, yeah. And there are the next two chapters, There's the one after that one is called time. And the one that follows it is intuition. And it's constructed very intentionally. And as you said, we get to the intuition. It's like when you are able to, and we're not talking about becoming a monk.

50:51This is not required mastery. I never say anything mean to myself. I'm always like in a Zen state. All you need is little glimpses. And because it's in those little windows where you do create enough space that you can hear yourself for who you really are. This is who I really am. This is what I really wanna do. If I could snap my fingers and be in a different place with a different life in one, three, five years from now, what would that look like? When you start to be able to listen to that part of yourself, boy, it's a beautiful part. And why time is in there is because the people who can direct their attention effectively experience the world in a much different way than the people who cannot.

51:31namely time becomes instead of this this hamster wheel running in the background that's always marching us towards our death it becomes very very malleable and this is where things like flow state where you get 10 times more done it's because you're in this you know there's beautiful alignment and the world starts happening for you rather than to you and also what if i could what what if I asked you, it's like, okay, you can live to 300. You have the same body, 225 years from now that you have right now. I'm not implying that you're 75, by the way, if you did the math. I'm inching up there though, but go ahead.

52:11What would you do differently? And most people, this is, to me, this is the gas. People are gonna get this wrong. Like, wait, well, I thought we were supposed to seize the day. I thought we were supposed to, you know, I agree, but what would you do differently? Well, you'd realize that I don't have to have it all figured out in 20. I don't have to go get the job that my parent wanted me to get to satisfy the thing. You're like, okay, I got some time to experiment. We end up doing so much stupid shit because we are scurrying around, hoping to fit it all in that we do nothing to an 11 and do everything to a four.

52:50And where does that leaving? It leaves us feeling empty, which in turn makes us beat ourselves up. Well, yeah, that's an incentive. It's this cultural imperative that we're constantly comparing ourselves to other people and we're in this race, right? And the race analogy is really powerful. And if you're not, you know, kind of toe to toe with people who are your age or falling behind and you're losing like the game, right? And it's like, what are we really talking about here? Like it's totally, it's completely insane. You're the most successful thing you've ever said in the history of your social media is fill in the blank.

53:24I have no idea what. I did my first X. Oh, right, yeah, like the, yeah, I didn't start until this, like, yeah, exactly. And to me, that is the reason that is - Life is long, like you have a whole section in it. Like life is so short, we gotta be hurrying, whatever. But then you're just, you're living reactively, right? You're living impulsively. And those people who are on their death pad are finally reflecting back upon what's most important and realizing the lie that is that race. And what they really are pining for are those quiet moments with the people they care about, or those fleeting moments of joy or that - Simplicity, beauty, awe.

54:05Yeah, like that moment that they had a spark of creative energy and that turned into, like all of these things that we don't really value as part of what we consider to be important. And incentives are big. It's not just like being accepted by the group. It's like what we decide is important and valuable. And as a creator, right now, all the incentives are around being everywhere, every day on all platforms constantly, right? And everything you share has to be creatively inspired. And it just creates this impossible benchmark for even the most creative person out there. And it's important to understand and remember that great works of creativity take time to the point of time.

54:56Like Paul Thomas Anderson is not on social media posting reels every day. He's like writing his movies and every four or five years, he comes out with like a brilliant work of art that we talk about, you know, that the entire culture embraces and talks about. And it's only because he's not participating in that game. His flashlight is narrowly focused. he understands who he is, what he's here to do. And I suspect that he's pretty good at making sure that he's not paying attention to all this stuff that isn't mission critical to what gets him excited and the song that his heart is trying to sing.

55:33There's a really hard thing going on in my life right now. My mom's real sick. And there's just a little glimpse into something that, and this is like, we're talking, this is like 48 hours old. so I'm still processing it. But... And it made clear to me that my mom being this close to death, how easy it was for me in my psychology, deep, middle of my brain, my heart, that connection right there. to say, okay, cool. We're playing like five games right now. Those are kind of fun to play. Time to turn them off for a little bit and get focused on the thing that matters. There is this internal realization, agreement that what I'm doing is playing a game over here.

56:23Am I successful in this regard? Am I winning on this axis? Am I, I literally said the words like, okay, timeout. We're playing a bunch of games. How do we feel about those games? not important, let's go sit by our mother's side in bed. And it was so, there was such a little, like a beautiful little awakening. And of course, I went back the next day and did a lot of the same things I was doing before. So I'm not suggesting that we just have to set all of those things down. And yet there's a little glimpse into what truly matters. And can we get closer to the things that that truly matter and move further away from the things that don't.

57:06Right, I mean, that's, you know, the final lever is practice, right? Like this is a practice. It's not about doing any of this perfectly, but I find it so interesting. First of all, sorry to hear about your mom. I know it's tough right now. Yeah, yeah. But so interesting that this is happening at the exact moment when your book that is, you know, basically kind of about this is happening at the same time. So you're really being tested. It's like, you wrote this book, I believe you, and now you're gonna have to actually practice this when in the most challenging context. Let's see if it really matters.

57:47Like, let's see if you can actually do this when every probably instinct inside of you is like, yeah, but I wrote this book and now I wanna go and I wanna talk about it. Totally. And I have less opportunities to do that. and the viability, like all the kind of real world, the sales and whatever, all that kind of bullshit that you get caught up in, obviously is a function of you showing up for that. And now you're being asked like, hey man, you might just have to let that go. Because this other thing is happening that you've talked about in the book that you know. It's been the biggest gift. In your heart of hearts.

58:23And also because you've gone on this exploration in writing this book is more important. And what are you gonna do? It has been the most amazing gift, right? And amazing is in quotes because it's a tough one. And yet it's so clear. And that's part of, it's those moments where we are, and we've all had them, everyone who's watching and listening, you've had those moments of clarity. I'm not suggesting that you have to try and live there because that is equivalent to being a meditator and thinking that if your mind wanders, you're failing. Not the case. Meditation is actually about bringing your attention or your awareness back to the mantra, back to the breath.

59:04That's what meditation is. Meditation is not staying perfect. It's the act of bringing your breath or your mantra or your attention back to the breath. And by extension, the goal is not to only live in this blissful, perfect state where I'm 100 % aware that my mom is in a very difficult place and my book is coming out at the same time. And if I could just live there, no, we can't. We can't possibly process that level of gravity. And yet we just need to find enough of those to remember who we truly are, to give us a compass of what we need to do with this one precious life. And it's available to us.

59:43That's the thing that I realized in doing this. And again, the title of the book came very, very late in the game because I realized that that's, oh my gosh, this is all of the best stuff. All of the best stuff is over here. We spend a lot of time over there, but all the best stuff is over here on the other side of taking chances and putting ourselves out there. And man, what if I could eschew this safety or just get better at it? I don't need to do it all the time because that would also probably be exhausting we all need some higher ground, right? We all need to rest after swimming and stand up on the beach for a second.

1:00:25And so these things can coexist. Yeah, it's that idea that somebody who's new to meditation, who sits down to meditate and the thoughts, there's just a waterfall of thoughts and they decide, well, meditation's not for me. Instead of saying all the more reason I need to meditate, like when you start to notice that that's what your brain is doing, Yeah. It's a cry for help, right? Like I need some reining in over here. Yeah, and this is not, you know, I don't wanna frame the book up as meditation because it's not at all. It's very practical. I mean, that's the subhead, right? Is a practical guide to freedom, creativity, and a life you love.

1:01:05No, what you're saying is, in order to make these better decisions, liberate yourself from the shackles of all of these kind of social constraints, you have to go inward and get quiet enough to actually have an objective view of like how you've behaved and why. And you can't do that unless you can create boredom and unshackle yourself from the things that are distracting you. And these are tools for doing that. But the purpose isn't to become a good meditator. The purpose is to start to like reconnect you. We're living our lives so disconnected from ourselves. We're connected to our devices and sort of tangentially to all of these people in the digital space, but we're utterly disconnected from who we are.

1:01:49We don't really quite know why we do what we do or what it is that is driving these decisions. And I think just clarity around what's important to you. Like, what is it when your head hits the pillow that is that dream deferred from when you were a kid? I mean, you tell the story of like all the creative things you did as a youngster and how they were pounded out of you. It's about going back to that place and trying to recapture some of that and give it expression in your adult life. Yeah, and one of the things that I have found that is also equally fascinating and for anyone, like I want you to enjoy the book and you're not just signing up to lift a bunch of weights.

1:02:28This is not like, this is not a heavy book. It is a - No, it's a super easy read. Yeah, and it's very practical. And to me, that was important in that, I took a lot of care and energy in making it as such. The thing that is interesting to me is who you were yesterday has literally, if you want it to be completely different today, you can have it that way. And because as you said, it's largely a narrative, your identity, so many of the things, like you can have a different, if you were a person who slept in all the time and you wished you got up early, the only thing that is keeping you from doing that is an alarm clock and the story that you have about yourself.

1:03:08And to me, that is wildly refreshing. Like, you know, you might be a thousand miles from home, but you're one decision away from a version of you that you might enjoy. Yeah, the present moment, right? You mentioned Ram Dass and be here now. Eckhart Tolle, like we're just completely captured by the past and a fantasy of the future. And both of those are illusions. Absolutely. Basically, but we're just passing through the present without that level of awareness to understand that actually right here, right now is the only opportunity to do anything whatsoever. Yep. And to me that you can look at that two ways.

1:03:50One, you know, difficult and scary and hard or cool, what am I gonna do right now? And I like that empowering part. This is one that I like. That's part of why time is early in the book. That chapter is because if you think that you're about to go on this massive journey where you have to carry all this water and chop all this wood, boy, that sounds really hard. And I'm just gonna give you a little sneak peek. Like, what do you want to change right now? And there's a couple of just little thought experiments in there where you find how easy it is to change a story that you had about yourself for 20 years.

1:04:24The interesting lens that you put on time is that we shouldn't be thinking about it the way that we're all obsessively thinking about it, which is time management. Like, how do I manage my time? How do I create the ultimate like, you know, schedule and which notes app should I use and all these sorts of things, right? And instead, let that go. I'm such a sucker for that too. And I've just got dragged into it and like, yeah, then I do this work and yeah. It's about dilation, right? Which is an interesting, you know, concept. I mean, it gets into flow state, but it's really about more than that.

1:04:56It's about the malleability of our relationship with time when we are engaged with our kind of heart song, right? Like when we're in that joyful place of play and creation, doing the thing that we love, like time suddenly takes on a whole different kind of dimension. Totally. And that's why I like it because everyone has experienced that time where just everything felt effortless and you were present and joyful. And were you aware that you were in this sea of a clock ticking in the background? No, you were completely disconnected from the horror story that we've created about time. And that's what it really means to be alive.

1:05:35To be clear, the clock and seconds and minutes, and they're very useful for meeting someone else on time or for starting an industrial revolution, but they are not part of real life. Yeah, I'm curious on a personal level, your relationship with, to like all the kind of flow state research, like you mentioned Kotler in the book and stuff like that. And like, quite honestly, Chase, like I, it's great. And I'm glad people are studying that. and there's a discourse around flow states and how you can access them. But at the same time, to me, it feels like a lot of, like now you're gonna sit down and you're gonna do these things and this is what's gonna create, like it's not how it works for me.

1:06:15Like I basically have to just immerse myself in something I really care about and the rest takes care of itself. And like for me to like kind of deconstruct it in that scientific way. But we all have friends. Actually makes it harder for me. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Good feedback. And we all have friends that need a chart. I got a bunch of my engineer friends are like, cool, where do I sit? And what sort of, you know, lens do I put on this? While I'm doing this. What kind of chair do I need to be in? Totally. And yet for you and I, that, but this is sort of why doing what you love is so powerful because you get a glimpse into all, and you start to see partway through the book, it's sort of like the, in Fight Club, where you start to get, you start to figure out that, but oh my gosh, Tyler Durden is the same character.

1:07:02Okay, great. You start to figure it out. Part way through the book, you realized how interconnected all of these tools are. And when you give yourself, you just do something that you love, something that's truly authentically you, you have time and space. It becomes play, it becomes this thing you wanna practice, your attention naturally gravitates towards it, time, fate, all these sorts of things. Yes. And to me, that is really, whether you're talking about flow state, To me, that is the most, those are the most beautiful moments of life and that they're just there for us. If we can take some of these basic steps, that's why this is a beginner's guide.

1:07:38This is like, get started with like truly loving your life and feeling free rather than, you know, pulled in a hundred ways. And this is really for the person who said, yeah, Kate Chase, but you don't actually understand. I got this and this and this and all these reasons why I can't, you know, actually pursue the thing that I'm after. It's cool. Don't pursue the thing, that magical thing. Just do these three things. It's like Stutz said, it's like, fine, just do the shit I'm saying, do this for a little bit. And if you don't get results, then give it up. But the irony is if you do what Stutz is talking about, then you can't help but actually discover those things.

1:08:17But that's an affront to the human mind though that wants to know, Chase, just tell me, okay, like I think this is my dream and like, this is how I'm gonna get there. And like, I need to know every step of the way and how it's gonna work out. Like any creatively fulfilled successful person will tell you that, you know, like that's just not how it works, man. It's about connecting with the heart and then being like, oh, it would be cool to take a photo of that. Like it's not any more than that. So I think we build it up into this, you know, thing that's impossible to understand. And that becomes a rationalization for paralysis and never kind of getting into the action piece.

1:09:00I agree. And that's why the world invented stories. And that's why there's a lot of stories in the book that help you see that that's actually not case. This person did these things. And this was the, it wasn't the culmination of the act. It was the beginning of the act. And boy, did that feel good.

1:09:22I own a bunch of spectacles, and I made the grave error the other day of donning a normal non-Roka pair on my indoor trainer when I was riding my bike indoors. And I got to tell you, it was a disaster. Every three to five seconds, I had to take my hands off the handlebars and push my glasses back up my nose until I got so frustrated I just tossed them aside. This is the dilemma of every active but optically impaired person I know. And as someone who has relied upon eyewear every single day since I was five years old, it is also the source of endless aggravation. Thankfully, now eradicated thanks to Broca, the stylish performance eyewear company founded by two former Stanford swimming teammates of mine who have gifted everyone like me and quite frankly, the world with their fashionable line of super lightweight prescription glasses and sunglasses with patented no-slip nose and temple pads that are just impervious to sweat.

1:10:26And no matter what you do, remain locked on your mug, no matter how intense your workout. Without the dork factor, these things go everywhere with me from the trail to the dinner party. Put them on, feel the difference and wear without limits. unlock 20 % off your order with the code richroll at roka.com. That's R-O-K-A.com.

1:10:57The greatest story in the book though is the story that bookends the book from at the beginning and then at the end, the story of Paul. Can you tell that story? Sure. I'll tell a short version of it. Yeah, it's long. But essentially, I received a phone call. I'll never forget it. I was lying in bed. It was like 5.05 or something. Very early in the morning, my phone rings. You know, I hear... I'm like, my phone is just on the nightstand across the room a little bit. So I crawl over there. I'm like, what is... And I look at it and it's my friend, Brandon Stanton. Now, Brandon is the genius behind Humans of New York, which is arguably one of the most successful photography projects of all time.

1:11:37Tens of millions of fans and followers. They've raised tens of millions of dollars for organizations all over the world. It's just telling stories of everyday people. And it has a home in New York because it's called Humans of New York, but he goes global with this. And he's telling stories about pediatric cancer and all sorts of other things. It's just brilliant. If you are not familiar with it, you're in for a treat. So he was like a superstar on Instagram. He was one of the first kind of like megawatt kind of breakout stars on Instagram for his chronicling of these stories. One of the most like tried, heartfelt, earnest artists that I know.

1:12:14Like nothing to betray the art. He's just like, and he was a Bond trader before this and got fired and said, I'm gonna go take pictures in New York and make it. And he lived on a mattress and it's a beautiful story. If you're not familiar with Brandon, check it out. Anyway, Brandon calls me and I'm like, and he does this because he like time zones for him. They don't mean anything. He lives in New York. I live in the West Coast. it's like oh brian or brandon thinks it's eight o 'clock for me i pick it up i'm like yeah he's like yo dude i'm standing in the town square in acra ghana and i'm with this kid and this kid says he recognizes me from your podcast and from creative live and that photography and you know learning all these skills has transformed his life and i'm like wow that's that's a great message oh cool and he's like this kid is real i'm looking at his portfolio he's like genius level work.

1:13:05And we got to just, I wanted to let you know, I was thinking about you, bro. And he's just a lovely person. So he hangs up and fast forward a few weeks, we're together in New York. He's back from Ghana and he's like, you know, more details about Paul. Essentially he had applied or back up just a little bit. He had a baby out of wedlock in Africa, which culturally for them, It was a huge deal. It was completely ostracized. And yet he, as the father of this child that he was not married to the mother, was a serious problem. And so it was extra pressure on him to provide and a lot of shame on his family and the family of the mother.

1:13:51And he needed to find work essentially. And he tried all sorts of different things, screen printing t-shirts and and hustling, all this entrepreneurial stuff. And he saw someone getting hired to shoot events with the camera and was making like five or 10 times more money than he was. So he sells everything he owns, including his phone, the only way he can communicate with the outside world, anywhere beyond his like call home, all those things, and buys a camera. And with this camera, he somehow magically pulls together a portfolio and submits it to the International Center of Photography in New York to somehow try and get out of Africa, earn a different income at a different scale.

1:14:41He's accepted, but as soon as he's accepted, he realizes that's in New York and I'm here, I can't go. Brandon finds this out through the process that Brandon does of asking amazing questions. and we're back in New York a few weeks later. And he tells me the story about what he finds out about Paul. So we as established, working professional photographers, we, with his permission, each of us write a letter to ICP saying, reinstate Paul. You should really think about giving him a stipend because he's an incredible talent. And Brandon also says, and I got some paid internships. So short story too long, we get Paul over here, most credit goes to Brandon here for hatching this plan.

1:15:26Paul goes to school, deals with all sorts of really difficult stuff, and using the tools that I have deconstructed in the book basically becomes insanely successful. Starts landing major campaigns, commercial campaigns as well. He's a documentary photographer. He's collecting photo books because none of that was available to him in Africa. And the end of the The first chapter starts with, and we should all take a cue from Paul, but not to reveal the end of the book, but fast forward, you think that's where the story ends, but it's really the beginning because what Paul does is he collects more than 30 ,000 books and vows to start a library, a center for photography in Africa, where Africans can tell stories about Africa with their cameras.

1:16:13Nothing like this exists. Brandon does a fundraiser. They raised two and a half million dollars. Paul takes this money, goes back, is reunited with his daughter and builds the Deakin Center, which is the largest center for creativity and photography in Africa. He's got the largest photo library and the entire content and a program that now educates like all sorts of photographers from Africa. It is a destination on the planet. It's an absolutely insane story. Insane. You left out the one piece though, which is when Paul first meets Brandon, he says to him with his cheap camera and like, that's it basically, I wanna use photography to transform Africa.

1:17:00Like he was very clear, like that was his North star. Yes. And then goes on this journey is the embodiment of all of these levers and principles that you talk about in the book. and I'm sure it was extremely difficult, but ultimately ends up basically realizing that dream. Like I'm just in it, I'm like at a crazy level. 10 X is it, right? It's like, I wanna have a photo library and now it's the Deacon Center. And I'm just the other day on my feet, I'm like, see some crazy ass celebrity who's out in front of the Deacon Center in Africa. In Ghana. Yeah, in Ghana with, you know, picture with Paul and heads of state and all that just like.

1:17:40And so if you, so now deconstruct that story and how your levers or principles come into play in the context of like how that all unfolded. Essentially, when you look at the core aspects that allowed that to be possible, they were a handful of tools that had been talked, that Paul had been talked out of that when he really was faced with providing for his daughter, essentially with a theoretical gun to his head, that he was able to discover, I would say rediscover these tools within himself, his ability to focus on the most important thing, which is creating a resource for African photographers in Africa to transform photography and to provide for his daughter.

1:18:26Like, okay, he's singularly focused on that goal. He realizes that this is going to take a long time. And if I just start to put one foot in in front of another, this is going to happen. He realizes also that it's his gut that's telling him that this is what I need to do. And in doing this, I will also somehow be able to, because theoretically he could be successful at that and not provide for his daughter. So he trusts his intuition. The constraints that this guy has are just off the charts. He's 15 ,000 miles from where he needs to be in order to do this. He doesn't have any money. He has no history with photography, you know, and this thing doesn't exist in the world.

1:19:09So there's all sorts of constraints that he overcomes.

1:19:13He finds joy in the act of photographing. He's a very serious person. And the building of all of these things brings him so much, you know, play and joy. And when he's doing these things, it lights him up. And he realizes that he can only get there if he is actively practicing all of the things that he knows are true within him. And essentially each of those are levers in the book. And to this day, he stands to me as this unreal example. And if Paul can do this, like us being able to grab onto some or any of these tools has to have an incredible capacity for change and growth. Yeah, and I think it's easy to minimize that story by saying, well, what if he hadn't met Brandon?

1:20:08But the point is that he met Brandon because he was doing all of these things and he put himself in a position for something like that to happen. And had he not met Brandon, something else would have occurred. For sure. And that's the way it works. That's what you don't get to see. and that's where like faith is a big piece in this. Faith and trust, like you can have your intuition and what your gut is telling you to do, but fundamentally you have to have, you have to develop a capacity to not just have self belief, but to have like trust that if you walk this path that you will be led. Yeah. And you don't get to decide how that looks or how long that's gonna take.

1:20:52And the more that you hold onto that, the less likely you are to be successful. Yeah, I mean, my last book was called Creative Calling and that's that calling that is out there. We're not quite sure what, but it does take a belief and a trust and what I find to be interesting is that when you do those things in the most unattached way that you can, things start happening for you rather than to you and you can choose to ignore those things or if you just let them inspire you a little bit, you might want to do the mental math and make the connection, even if your rational mind is telling you otherwise, that isn't that a much more beautiful and blissful way to live than the opposite.

1:21:36For people like Paul though, like he was very clear on who he was, what he wanted to do, all of that. And that's a gift in its own right, right? Like to have that, I'm always like - But didn't it come - Not envious, but like mad respect for people when they're very young to be like, this is what I'm doing. Like, that's a cool thing, right? Most people don't have that, but I think that's where the intuition piece comes in. For sure. And you kind of characterize it as training yourself to see what you've been trained not to see, right? And this is a very nuanced thing, especially for somebody who's disconnected from themselves because - It's easy to write off.

1:22:19Well, you can mischaracterize intuition as something else. Like you could say, well, my intuition is telling me to do this, but you're so disconnected. You're just reacting, right? Like, and you're calling it intuition when actually you're so disconnected that your intuition can't, you can't even feel or hear or see your intuition. Yeah, that's very true. And I'll give you that. And I also think though, that that's the person who, I'm trying to give this nugget in a tidy little package called a book that you don't have to try very hard to, you know, read 30 pages of that book and realize that there might be something here.

1:22:57To me, that's whether we have to hurt enough to start to do that work or rather I can make the work so palatable. I don't actually care I'm trying to do. And that's again, go back to the meta story here is that that's the work that I realized I had to do and that last eight weeks before the deadline is, this is an exercise where we can, this is palatable, it's available to everybody. And it's not really the sugar with the medicine, I think, but it is putting it in a framework that is easy to understand where I don't have to completely transform, I don't have to blow up my life or you can, it's up to you.

1:23:38But what if there was a way for us to just sort of like, hand you a little letter, if you could read, you know, a paragraph and a handwritten note, what, you know, and if that could inspire you, that's my concept of the package that this book is trying to do. Yeah. And it's full of all these practical tools. I mean, on the intuition piece, you know, there's, you know, journaling, there's things you can do. You talk about the artist date. I love the art, you know, it's like the Julia Cameron book, Artist's Way. Like, if you don't know, you know, what the thing is, It's like you have to get active with yourself so that that can like percolate up.

1:24:15And that can be fun, that that can be like a stress relief, that that can be like a little gift you give yourself rather than more work. And to me, it was really important to, it's not to say that you get any of this in life without hard work, you certainly don't get to live your dreams without a bunch of hard work. And yet starting is actually, if that's the hardest part, how can we make that so low that you can trip over it? Talk a little bit about constraints.

1:24:45Constraints, my relationship with understanding how constraints work is completely downstream from my life as an artist. When I was new in the field, I wanted unlimited, I wanted a blank canvas, I can do anything. And you start to figure out that that's really hard and actually not that useful because you end up if, you know, utility is part of what I love about, that's one of my love languages and it's part of what I like about art. And when you start to then throw even the most fundamental basic thing as a constraint into a piece of art, you're gonna, I'm going to choose the medium. It's gonna be a painting or am I gonna choose the, it's gonna, I'm an architect and it's gonna be a house.

1:25:34Like a thousand other things come into focus that you can then attack versus if you've got, this is why the blank page is so scary. Well, I would say at least you know it's a page and you're gonna write something. But the cool thing is that as you start to lean into constraints, constraints are there to guide you. There's a beautiful exercise that the legendary designer Stefan Sagmeister helped me through with a previous project. And he said, the lateral thinking expert, Edward De Bono, basically coined this sort of process of looking at anything that you're going to make through the lens of something else.

1:26:11You're gonna design a tennis shoe. Instead of looking at all the other shoes for inspiration, what else could you look at? Well, let's look at this glass of water. What are the attributes of a glass of water that you could start to think about a shoe? Oh, maybe the sole is clear or there's some aspect of fluidity and you immediately unlock 50 attributes that you could map from this glass of water to a shoe. I'm not saying that your shoe needs, that that's the answer. But if you want to start to unlock your creativity, because what your mind does, it's a series of well-worn ruts. It immediately goes to, what are all the other shoes that I've seen?

1:26:52And they all have laces and they all look mostly kind of like this one. And it takes your brain, it needs something else to start to reject some of those really well-worn ruts. it starts to go from things that you've seen to things that you've experienced. And when you can bring in something like a glass of water, you basically shatter that whole paradigm that your relational brain goes into and trying to create something. So I would encourage this, especially if someone thinks of themselves as not very creative, this is a magic way to impose some constraints on anything that you have to create.

1:27:27Just drag something else into the picture and think of it as the fuel for what you need to make. Yeah. It's, it's another thing that's counterintuitive to, to our instincts, which are, uh, constraints are impediments to creation, right? But they actually drive creativity in every single way. And they can, they can be, they come in all shapes and forms. I mean, a deadline is a constraint, right? Absolutely. You have five minutes to write a page and you're not allowed to write about whatever, and it has to be about this or whatever. Like those are all constraints, right? If you're an artist and I gave you a, you have to paint something, you have five minutes, it has to be in red and it has to have circles.

1:28:06You're immediately painting, right? And the more you throw in there. So within constraints though, there are external constraints and there are self-imposed constraints. There's perceived constraints, environmental constraints. We talked about the constraints of success that, you know, like that can be a constraint, right? Like when you're so successful, you're constrained in the choices you're making because you have more to lose or your attachment to a certain lifestyle, et cetera. But kind of parse these various versions of constraint. I think the most useful way of answering that question is that historically, it's just to sort of go back to square one, which is historically constraints have been the things that keep us down.

1:28:56I don't have enough money, time, space. let's go back to that person that you articulated earlier. The thing, yeah, Chase, this might be nice for you, but, and then they're essentially listing a number of constraints. I got a mortgage, I've got a couple of kids, and this is the spot that I'm in in my life. And what if you, for example, saw those, those are versions of external constraints as cool. I need to create something where those are all the limiting functions of what it is that I'm going to create, whether this is a new job, whether like those are external constraints. And what if you saw those as not the thing that's holding you back, but as a powerful director of where you should go next.

1:29:40Like I can't do any of those things. So I'm going to go in the direction that I can go. It defines the boundaries of the playground. Exactly. And then if you look at those various permutations, again, there's sort of technically they fall into a couple of different umbrellas of constraints, but let's just call those are external. And then what about that internal constraint that you have, which is if you told yourself, this is how I'm going to show up in this thing. Here's how I wanna show up, lazy, tired, frustrated, angry, but what if I give myself a series of constraints like I'm gonna do this with all I've got for 20 minutes a day.

1:30:21Let's take, for example, working out. the goal is not to go from never working out to work to you know working out five hours a day what if i could do 25 push-ups a day because i don't i don't have a gym i don't have time my kids are everywhere great can you wake up at five in the morning and before you get in the shower can you do 25 push-ups can you do 50 push-ups everyone can do that now there's the external constraints of time and energy and then there's the internal constraint of again the big Big ones. That's where all the big stuff is, right? It is an inside journey. It's an inside game.

1:30:57But to me, the cool part about that is it's just a decision then. It's easy to be scared of those big internal things. And you might be a thousand miles from home, but you're one decision away from getting fit or you're one decision away from taking a step in the direction of your dreams. And to me, that's powerful medicine. Again, it goes back to the present moment. What is the decision you're gonna make right now within the constraints of this moment and what's available to you? And it's the mind that rebels against that. When money and all these other kind of external things are suddenly no longer constraints in that specific moment, it's between you and you.

1:31:47And that's, and to be fair, what I tried to do, and maybe you can judge me on this, I tried not to beat the reader up in this case. Like to me, this is, it's just a gentle nudge. And I try and show myself and all the horrible things that I've done to betray myself and all of the ways that I've skirted responsibility and told myself all the lies that we are able to very easily make up about why we can't do X or Y. So I use myself in there as an example. and there's no shame in this book. The goal is meant, it's meant to just show you that, oh my gosh, I can do this. This is, it's like accessibility is the goal.

1:32:29Yeah. The lever around failure is interesting because you kind of take a different tack. The discourse around failure is either like, we need a new word, you know, like failure isn't really a thing. We should just be failing all the time. But there's the other piece, the other side of that is there's kind of a, there's like, it's like failure porn almost. You know what I mean? Totally. And it's kind of not really either of those things. We, you know, we don't like you're acknowledging like failure does suck. You know, we shouldn't all be like running towards failure. Come on, and you're not carrying enough.

1:33:06Certain failures carry, you know, great cost. I mean, you talk about the space shuttle and like, you know, these are not trifling things. So the sort of Silicon Valley dismissive relationship with failure, I think is in need of, you know, kind of closer examination. And you seem to do that and have awareness around that. Failure is really obvious in one sense and really tricky in another, because we have, we're simultaneously glorifying it. Like, oh, fail fast, fail forward, fail often. I mean, there's so many like adjective way that we should be failing and we throw it around like it doesn't mean anything.

1:33:49And I don't know about you, but the failures that I've had, they hurt real bad, most of them. And so where can we culturally start to land failures as yeah, sometimes they are big. If they don't sting at all, are you really learning something? Like if you don't try with your first draft and you get some negative feedback, like, is it really, you know, is it, was there value there? If you didn't try, it's because you are afraid of failure and you always have that back door of saying, well, I didn't really put myself on the line. Totally. And yeah, I get it. Trying to take the pressure off of V1, just do something for people who tell me, oh, I'm a terrible writer.

1:34:35Can you help me? I'm like, sure, show me all your shitty writing. and they can produce exactly zero pieces of paper with bad writing on it. And I'm like, well, your problem is you need to write a bunch of crappy stuff first. So in some ways, this is what I mean, our relationship with the term failure generically is sort of fragmented and not cohesive. And this is the point that I make. So let's just talk about, what if we framed it as tiny experiments? What we're running is a bunch of tiny experiments and it should sting if those experiments don't go well because otherwise we're not gonna put that much effort into getting them right in the first place.

1:35:12And that is what makes for iteration, adaptation, growth. And to me, like - Resilience. Yeah, resilient. And if they're tiny experiments, then the stakes are lower, you know. For sure. And the cool part is that your definition of tiny can evolve over time. What is it is what you've built here? Is that a tiny experiment? is the expanding of the network of shows that you're creating. Is that a tiny experiment? Well, if you ask your accountant, it's probably a pretty big experiment. But in the scope of Rich Roll's life, I don't know, you tell me, where does it fit on the scale of tiny to massive?

1:35:52Needs to sting if it doesn't work out. And yet the potential and what I'm seeing come out of the ground is just spectacular. So I just encourage people to start to think differently about failure. or what if it was a bunch of lightweight, tiny experiments, what would you do differently? I think the key piece is uncoupling identity from success and failure of a particular project or task. Because again, it goes back to our lizard brain. It becomes a fight or flight thing. It's like an existential threat to our lives. if our identity is so interwoven with the success or failure of a certain thing.

1:36:38And that creates the fear to not start it. And like the sort of paralysis when you're in the middle of it, like all of these things are counterproductive and at cross purposes with actually, like sort of actualizing the thing that you're trying to do. Yeah. And that's part of the reason I want to recast that. And this is why I wondered in architecting the book, could it be, to me, it's a very, very important tool. And I think of it as a tool because that is, if you, how else would you build resilience? Like literally, answer me the question. If you can't try and not succeed, how could you build resilience?

1:37:28Or how can you learn anything? Like basically anything that you don't know how to do to get to the point where you know how to do it means you're going to like, you know, fall down. Which person who's listening who has children said after the 49th time that your child fell down while walking, if you had an able-bodied child, guess my kid's not a walker. I mean, you'll laugh because it's laughable. And yet we do that to ourselves so easily and so readily all the time. And usually before the 49th time that we fall down, before the third or fourth failed business venture, we must just say, yeah, I guess I'm not, you know, cut out for this or whatever.

1:38:10So to me, if you, these are the discussions that I had when framing, I was very intentional. All of the work, it took 80 % of the work to actually align on these key tools and why I feel so confident that if we can have a different relationship with failure and you hit the punchline, right? Which is not to tie our identity to it, which takes a fair bit of work. But man, can you imagine the freedom? And that is like, literally, you wanna build a resilient human, you know, challenge them and you can't get there any other way. So, you know, this is, it does very much go back to the title of the book.

1:38:48Like you're going to struggle if you take chances and taking chances and struggling builds a resilient person. And we find the characteristic of resilience to be very valuable in this life. Well, let's then start to reshape how we think about all these things, you know, with specifically failure as a key one of them. Yeah, you drill it down to one concrete thought in the chapter, which is basically like, if you're afraid to fail, you're afraid to live, right? So if you wanna live and the larger you wanna live, like failure, that's the package, right? It comes with it. So the key is yes, the identity piece and then developing the sort of resilience and wherewithal to kind of meet failure without it and learn from it, but without the kind of negative side effects of like it cratering your motivation or a sense of your own possibility.

1:39:52Yeah, and the science around failure is pretty interesting. I did a bunch of research on this chapter. Again, I was like, man, is this really a tool? And of course it is. If you wanna build resilience, you wanna build a skill, you wanna learn anything, you have to get comfortable with this, but you wanna be too comfortable because if you're too comfortable it doesn't sting a little bit, then you're not gonna try hard enough. So once you can put up the constraints, the framework around this stuff, diving into it, it's pretty interesting. And the science is pretty clear that trying to learn something, that looking at the results of what you achieved the first time around, if you were not successful, Turns out that that's really valuable, having a debrief, looking at what went wrong.

1:40:29Trying again is also valuable and trying quickly is valuable. But just doing it randomly is not. So specifically like trying something, it not working, you deconstruct quickly what happened, go after it again on a slightly different vector and you do that over and over. that's actually meaningful failure. You know, there's a few different types of failures in the book and that's the one that you actually want. One that when they analyze, and they, you know, they mapped this across all sorts of different paradigms. What is, you know, investing was one way and there were three or four other ways that this particular study was done.

1:41:11Turns out that trying a lot, trying different things, but not randomly trying to learn from what you did last time. I mean, this is not a huge leap here that this is how, if I was gonna try and do anything, this is how you really would want to do it. And yet, if we look at our own lives, we rarely do that. Right, right. My startup doesn't work. I'm like, what did you change from the last time? Nothing. Cool. There's some pretty basic principles that work here that you need to change something. A huge Achilles heel in this is just our preoccupation with what other people think. And it's tied to the identity piece.

1:41:48but we're all captured to one degree or another by the opinions of who knows who, anybody, it doesn't matter, right? So what have you learned or what can you share about liberating ourselves from being kind of a victim of that and letting like, whether it's family members, friends, or just the unnamed, like whoever's seeing you on social media, Like these people loom so large in our life in terms of the decisions we make and our own kind of calculus with the failure we're willing to kind of invite into our experience. Yeah, a couple of different vectors on which I'd like to address that. And to me, the most important one is a tip that I got from Brene Brown.

1:42:40And we were talking about shame and guilt and failure, vulnerability, all the things that she is one of the world's leading experts on. And she shared with me that I said, how do you do all these things in front of all these people? And a lot of her early work - And you were asking her that on stage in front of a lot of people, right? It's true. And this was very, this is like maybe 2010 or 11. Like she was earlier in her journey. Her TED talk had gone viral and she has a funny line. And she says, like, well, how do you introduce yourself? And she's like, well, especially on airplanes, if I want to talk to the person that I say, cool, I'm a researcher.

1:43:21And if I don't, I say, I am a shame, guilt, and vulnerability expert. And that usually people are just like, you know, they just go back to their business. It's hilarious. And she says it so funny. But I asked her, it's like, so she, a lot of her work at that time had come out of the famous Roosevelt quote, the man in the arena, which is essentially like, if you're out there giving it your best and you're bleeding and dirty and sweaty, don't really think about the people who are in the cheap seats talking about how this failure is so unbecoming of you. And it's really that you are, cherish this, you're amazing and keep going.

1:44:07And it's a very beautiful quote, the man in the arena. And she said, well, part of how I decide who I will let affect my behavior is that I write it on a one inch by one inch piece of paper. That's the number of people that I'm allowed, however many I can get on that one inch by one inch piece of paper of people whose opinions of me actually matter. Everything else, gotta find a way to turn it off. That's such a cool piece of advice. Have you done that? Have you written this out? And how many people are on that little piece of paper? It was less than five. And I try, not always successfully, but I try and when things get hard and they will for everyone, think about that piece of paper.

1:44:57And it's, to me, it serves a very valuable function because you can then turn that into, well, wait a minute. Then we get to some entrepreneurial concepts like Bezos is be willing to be misunderstood by large swaths of people for long periods of time. If you wanna do something material, if you wanna move mountains or transform the world or your world, like people are not gonna get it. And if you can pay attention to that list of, that you can put on a one inch by one inch paper and be willing to be misunderstood by everybody else for long periods of time, turns out that's a pretty powerful combination.

1:45:39Difficult to put into practice though. Very. Practicalities of the real world. And the other ripple with this is, if you do summon the courage to kind of chart your own course and you start breaking ranks with whatever you had been doing, the people in your immediate environment and the people that you care about are less likely to kind of smile and applaud. You think like, oh, they're gonna be like, look, I'm doing this thing and I'm trying really hard. Like, because you're shining a mirror that challenges their own, like sort of worldview around what's possible. And it's forcing them to kind of confront or ask themselves questions about like, why am I doing what I'm doing?

1:46:26And nobody wants to do that, right? So that turns into, you know, kind of a disgruntled lashing out at that person. And that's something you need to be prepared for as well. If I may ask you a question. Yeah. How did it feel when you got sober for the people that were in your friend group who were not desiring to be sober? I mean, those people needed to go away anyway. And they're all practicing alcoholics. So they're deep in their own self obsession. That part wasn't that hard. The harder part was finding, I needed to find all new friends for the most part. I mean, I still have some friends for those.

1:47:02I had some real friends from that period of time and they're still my friends and they were supportive. The harder piece was when later in life, when I started to kind of blaze this different track outside of the law. And that was, you know, in and of itself, like incredibly trying and difficult, made all the more difficult because people were sort of looking at us side-eyed as we were struggling and doing it. And that really, that was a real challenge. Well, where I was gonna go with that is I was gonna ask you about that moment of sobriety, and then I was gonna ask you about building this, and then I was gonna ask you about the next, like this is a pattern, right?

1:47:44You were getting judged constantly. And who is judging you and your awareness of that? It matters, but not to a point. If you have built as you have the resilience to keep going. Right, but a lot of that is sort of, I can conveniently speak to through the rear view mirror, but when you're in it, and I'm fundamentally a people pleaser and a sensitive person who does care too much about this kind of thing. And it was hard, it's still hard. It's still hard to be a somewhat public person and see people criticize you. I don't, that's like not fun. I've gotten better at like, cause I know who I am and I know what I'm doing.

1:48:32and people are gonna have opinions about that, that's fine. Yeah, but here's the cool thing. 51 % yes, 49 % no, that's all you need. Is the 1 % that is greater than that part that says stop, that says keep going. Oh, inside yourself. Inside yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it doesn't always feel good. And again, failure is not supposed to not sting, but here we are, you know, you, you have successfully navigated those things. And I, if I look, ask you to look back, are you the same, better or worse for it? I don't know anyone who can say that I'm worse because I did that because I was, I continued when it was clear, it was a a clear path for me not to, and here I am.

1:49:28Now, this is not the framework of all frameworks, but it should hurt to fail. And yet it is your willingness to put it out there, to again, go back to the title of the book, to be, to eschew safety, because safety would have you not doing anything new or different, and take that leap, be willing to fail, be willing to fail publicly. It doesn't feel, it doesn't say it feels good because it wouldn't have value if it did. But it's a lot easier to weather that when your ballast is firm and your compass is properly calibrated, which goes back to the inside job and the intuition and the awareness. Like these are all critical so that you have like an adequate sense of self.

1:50:17Like I know what I'm doing. I know why I'm doing it. This is where I'm going. And so when you fail, you're like, okay, okay, it doesn't matter because like, it's just another step on this path that I'm on. But without that, when you are trying to do something difficult and other people are not happy about it and have choice words for you. And when they, you're gonna interpret that as failure or they're telling you that what you're doing is failure or on a crash course with failure. If you don't have that compass or that ballast, you will misinterpret what's happening as failure when in fact it might be something different.

1:50:57So again, like all of these tools are only, only, you know, optimally applied when, you know, you've really begun, you've built that foundation inside yourself. And two examples, one, that's not an accident that failure is the next to the last chapter because all of these things are sort of building on one another. So if you're doing these things in a valuable constructive way, boy, this is a time to actually, let's pressure test this a little bit. Do I have the foundation to use your words to actually be comfortable here? And it's not gonna say it's gonna be easy or fun. And yet you start to realize, the story I tell in the book about failure is Arno Reed who Melissa, she's the first American woman to climb Everest and descend without supplemental oxygen.

1:51:47And the whole climbing community was basically like, she can't do it. She tried five or six times and it was just heart wrenching for her. And yet, you know, again, she was able to, is the 51 49, she was just one click more successful than all the doubt and fear and all the other things. So, you know, hat tip to her. And the success was really a function of her coming to terms with how much that criticism was weighing on her, right? And it was only when she could kind of transcend that, that she was actually able to like break through and achieve that goal yes and to the point that you made earlier which i think is really i mean you're a smart cookie no no uh no surprise there but how failure is different for different people like something that you consider a success someone else might consider failure the example that i give in the book is at creative live we were growing 40 year over year doing basically on a$36 million annual run rate.

1:52:45And I was like, I'd just come back, done a whole big overhaul, basically retooled the entire company. We were growing again. To me, that's pretty sweet. You're doing 36 mil, 40 % year over year. Who's not gonna love that? Had a great board meeting and an all hands meeting where we shared the news with the company. And I sit down with my lead investor. I'm saying, so we should go raise another round now. This is like, we're taking the world by storm. And he looks at me and he's like, yeah, it's just not that interesting. Yeah. You know, and - Because his lens is, is this gonna be Uber or Instagram?

1:53:29And if it's not, like it's kind of boring. Yeah, not only not boring, but it doesn't fit into their business model anymore. And this is what people don't understand. This is not to, you know, rip on venture capital, But the goal is literally to get you to be a billion or multi-billion dollar company or die trying. Not happy with just, you know, a couple hundred million dollars. That's just, that's like a, that's not the part of the business model. And our, you know, our alignment on what success looked like and what failure looked like, we're so radically different. And, you know, the point of that story is that's okay.

1:54:08And you have to get good with the thing that you are measuring, you know, focusing the things that you can control. It's a very stoic way of thinking about it. I can't control how this, you know, how my investor thinks about where we are right now as a business. But I can be proud of the work that we've done to retool it and all the other sort of a number of things that we could describe about the success of the business or the failure of the business. It doesn't actually matter. And this is where your own barometer, this is why this is an inside job and why this is a lifelong pursuit matters.

1:54:39Like that's what we're trying to do here. Yeah, do you have your own clear definition of what success means and looks like for you? Or are you only successful if some third party, you know, decides that you are who has a very different definition of success? That moment for me was a real heartbreaker and super empowering because what it did was I was like, oh my gosh, my initial instinct is like, what? You don't think we're great? And then it was also like, oh, we got to tie this thing up. We got to wrap this up. Okay. It made my clear the next couple of years crystal clear for me, get profitable, you know sell the company because i'm not sort of in their endeared circle and i don't want to waste their time and me pretending that that's not the view that they have of my company would be fiction and i feel like i have an understanding of what's possible to business given all the constraints and cool i know exactly what to do now and to me this is when you you know this is just the parting of ways, a different way of parting ways.

1:55:51Cause it's not like you're fired, I'm outta here. It's like, we still go. But my next conversation was, I was like, if that's the way you feel, then here's our next steps is the way I see them. And maybe you can tell me how you see it. So there's something beautiful about that. Yeah. The reconciliation of those. There is no one definition of success. And I think when you're starting to, you know, cast your version of that, like careful what you ask for, because if it's private jets and fancy restaurants and luxury sports cars, that's gonna have an impact on your ability to pick your kid up every day at school.

1:56:30So what are your values? What's most important? What is a function of how other people are going to see you and the importance of that in your life versus what's truly important when you're on your deathbed looking back with regret. Yep, and that lens is the lens that I'm hoping that we can put on our lives now without actually being on our deathbed. The one that trips me up the most though, dude, that I think I struggle with the most of all of these is the play, is the play thing. That's a tough one. Sure. It's hard for me to inhabit that space. Like intellectually, I know, but I'm the guy who's like gripping the table.

1:57:17And if I'm not suffering, like I'm not working hard enough and it's not good and I'm gonna will my way through whatever I'm doing. And of course, as a result of that, I rob myself of joy. I'm not as present in my life. My relationships suffer, like all of these things, right? And you've been pretty transparent about a lot of that on the show. And I think it takes courage to do that. because I believe that play is our natural state, right? Just in the same way that our natural state is to be wildly creative. Again, this is an age old exercise. Go to any first grade classroom, say, who wants to come to the front of the room and draw me a picture?

1:58:00Every hand goes up. Ask the same classroom theoretically 10 years later and how many hands go up? Not very many. So this is a natural attribute that's trained out of us. I believe the same thing is true to a certain extent with play. That is our natural state. We are able to enjoy anything with some framing, with a belief that joy is not something that we experience after the work is done. And if we are having fun, therefore it's somehow not valuable. Like those are things that it would not be unthinkable to hear that in lots of boardrooms or in all sorts of other contexts. And yet it's pretty easy to say that those aren't facts.

1:58:53Yeah, I mean, I would say, yes. I would say that I find joy in what I do, but I'm not sure it would qualify as play. You know what I mean? What if you decided? What if you decided? Yeah. What if you decided? I mean, I try to be in a playful state when I'm doing this. It's all the other stuff. It's like when this is happening, like I let go of all of that, but it's everything that kind of surrounds it, right? And I think it's hardwired into me, like this Protestant work ethic kind of thing. And the idea of play is sort of associated with taking your eye off the ball and like being lazy. Totally, but you're doing all of the work here.

1:59:33I don't even have to say it. You're saying all of the right stuff that I put in the book. like Protestant work, you know, we gotta do the work before we have any fun. And it's like, who's to say it can't be fun. You know, that cleaning up the toys can't be just as fun as dragging them out all over the floor. Yeah, you talk about, you know, folding the laundry. And you have the Alan Watts that, yeah, all of that. Doing the dishes. Which is all true. Cause it's not about like joining, you know, a softball league. It's about like, how do you inject, you know, that kind of like that spirit to kind of animate the mundanity of our daily lives.

2:00:11It's true. And I think it's an interesting exercise to decide to inject something playful. And there's a little tiny experiment, a little exercise in the book where I like fold some laundry and roll up to that thing. Like, I can't believe I have a thing that will dry my clothes. How cool are you? You're a tool. I don't have to do anything. I press a button and then when I take them out, look at all the colors. I know, and then I'm like, yeah, but you're just putting a mask on and acting like a lunatic. Fair enough, totally. And yet, if you are actually able to go there. It's all true, I know this.

2:00:47It's true, it's true. And hey, what's wrong with a little lunacy? Yeah, I'm so grateful to have clean clothes. And yet, would you find there to be some value in looking at something that could otherwise be hard and saying, I think this can be a positive experience. What does that feel like? When you make a decision instead of you accept what you believe or what you've been taught to believe, the world thinks of this thing that you are about to do. So it's a tiny defiance to me. And this is why it's a little rebellion. And the book is basically, it's basically very, everything in here is counterintuitive.

2:01:32That's part of the, to me, what is interesting about the book. The thing that, you know, go back to attention, we're taught to get attention or we die, right? Look at me, this is how you find a mate, get a promotion, all the things. And yet it's the ability to direct your attention, to pay it, to give it away, to direct it functionally where you want it, that actually is the superpower. And by extension, okay, let's look at work. All this stuff, we're like, we feel good if we just grinded and we're at the end of the 12 hour work day, it feels good. And what if you didn't rob yourself of the joy of you could find a way for it to be joyful?

2:02:19Would that be somehow worse? Would you be worse off the same or better? And I just argue that it's better. And this is not to say that we have to pretend that, you know, I give the example in the book of actually digging up my septic system by hand, which is the most absurd example I could come up with. And yet I decided that was gonna be fun and it was actually kind of fun. I met a bunch of my neighbors, learned some things, made a lot of, you know, jokes in the process. And then you ended up designing a new like cap for it or whatever. Right, yeah. But I think it's reasonable to be skeptical around some of these tools.

2:02:59The goal is that when I deconstructed my relationship with fear and risk and that all the best stuff on the other side of the comfort zone is where life really has its best stuff. To me, getting there or providing a lens or a blueprint for getting their compass.

2:03:55joy and fun and play, and how do we then build in some framework and some discipline around them to create better access to those? The joy and play piece comes into play for someone who knows what that experience is like and has followed that muse like, oh, this is what lights me up. This is, I love this. And they start to invest in that. And that leads to another thing and another thing. And suddenly, they've built a life around this thing that has brought them so much joy. I'm somebody who has done that, right? Yes, you are. But with that comes an edifice around it. And then what was once play is now job and vocation and responsibilities and managing people and all these other things, right?

2:04:48And those things have a tendency to drain the joy out of the thing to the point where it's no longer the thing itself that got you into it, right? And you tell the story about Djokovic and his experience with that and playing tennis. And then it becomes sort of a challenge as to whether you're gonna be able to find a way back to that or give it up and do something altogether different. Yeah, I think it's fascinating that you are articulating out loud, you're doing all the work for me here, which is the same exact thing. You were able to very clearly see it as joyful and fun. And then you're still doing the same thing 10 minutes, 10 days, 10 weeks, 10 months later, but you have decided that now this is work.

2:05:41Nothing changed about the thing except your relationship to it. And so to me, that's the intellectual trap that I capture you in. It's like, what else has changed? Nothing except your attitude. Therefore, if you can have the attitude because you once had it, we have proof that's available to you now. Yeah. I mean, in the context of like this thing that we're doing the podcast, like this is still like, I got into it cause it was fun. It's still fun. Right. But I think what I've had to do because I've been doing it for so long is put guardrails around that to make sure that it stays fun. Because if it's not fun, then what's the point?

2:06:22And honestly, it's not a good experience for the audience, right? Like, here I am, I gotta do another podcast, but you know, woe is me, like, come on, dude. Like, this is like the greatest gig ever. And if you can't continue to stay engaged with that and connected to the fact that like, it's a gift and a super fun, awesome thing, then you should give it up. But because there's all these other things around it now that didn't exist from the beginning. Those, you have to like find a way to manage all of that without it like imposing or incringing on the thing itself. The gold plaque on the wall over there, the million subs that actually.

2:07:02Yeah, I mean, those things start to like, they're like mind viruses. Totally. You know? They are, they are. And to me, our ability to be aware of those is, is, I guess that's winning still, right? It's like, even if you're aware that that is the thing that's keeping you down and it feels frustrating because now I need to go get the next million or I needed to go to 10 million or whatever. Yeah, I mean, you're like a heroin addict, like, you know, just chasing the high. Right. And it's an empty pursuit. It's a completely empty pursuit. And you did that already with law school, which is one of the reasons I put you in the book.

2:07:40We should tell people that. I'm honored to be in the book. There's a lovely story about Rich in the intuition chapter about him following his. What is the thing that trips you up the most? Wow. I think knowing all of these, intellectually understanding them and still finding myself avoiding them is incredibly painful. And what's the one that comes up the most? I would say it's attention. And I would say that because it's the hardest one, it's the biggest one. And I've put the most time and energy into training my attention and it still eludes me. It's still being, I'm allowing it to be hijacked.

2:08:31I've been, I've had a meditation practice for more than a decade. I think of myself as pretty good at it. And here I am trying to direct my attention to the right things. All the self-knowledge and still flailing in practice. So then the self-defeat, like, who the hell are you? Like you wrote this book about this stuff and you suck at it, like all of that, right? And that's, you know, one of the age old quotes, right? Know thyself. A lot of this comes down to that. And the goal with providing these simple tools is a vehicle for you to get to know yourself on all of these different sort of ways of thinking.

2:09:06And to know that this is my challenge. And some of it comes from a beautiful place, the curious place in me is interested in the new thing. And yet after chasing a lot of new things, I am aware that part of me can ascertain whether this is truly a value or if I'm pretending. And yet that's one of the reasons that I was very clear in the book and it goes back to this, the analogy of meditation. This is not about never, our mind never wandering. This is not about us never betraying ourselves. This is not about always not playing it safe, always be in maximum risk mode. That's not what this is about.

2:09:49The whole package is about understanding human nature, our nature, leaning into the things that are so valuable about that nature and not letting the things that are difficult or bad about that nature drive us. you're in an interesting kind of transitionary phase right now. So where does your attention find itself? Like what, you know, what are you, so you're, my sense is like, you're kind of betwixt in between, you finish this creative live chapter, you've got this book coming out, but there's sort of an unwritten aspect as to like what's gonna happen next. And so this is like this amazing opportunity for you to like, okay, where does my curiosity and my attention naturally gravitate towards?

2:10:37And like, what do I need to be paying attention to in order to figure out not just what the next thing is, but what the next right thing is for you?

2:10:52Well, one could easily have wedged my own story into this book about the macro process that's going on for me. It's true. you know lifelong career as a photographer leveraged that into a venture-backed startup around training tens of millions of people around the world to be more creative on photography design filmmaking podcasting entrepreneurship all of that it's a nice tidy story and then there was you know when I the company was acquired and I you know just basically took some time to breathe a bunch of stuff came true for me which is like I'm actually really tired that was really hard I've been working stupid hard for, you know, a decade and change, maybe more.

2:11:34And that that had an effect on me. It took its toll. And what about that looking backwards do I want more of? And what am I very clear that I do not want more of? And, you know, I extract that. I did not include that sort of macro lens on the book other than just being aware that simple joy is what I'm looking for. It is a really fun period to have created, again, just 51 % awareness, beat the 49 % doubt of what are you doing here? And I'm just looking backwards because success does leave clues. What in my past lit me up the most, gave me direction and soul and feeling, connection to my people and to my community.

2:12:21And man, if I start to excavate that, there's some really good stuff that's undone there. What kind of projects did I love that I feel like are undone? Turns out that that has given me a pretty interesting roadmap. Writing a book that shared what I have learned along the way was essentially one of those pieces. I'm going back to operating my own personal brand, which when you get slurped into the venture capital world and you're the founder, your personal brand gets really mashed together with the universe. and you have to be your part of a company. It's very hard to be an individual. And I realized that I'm never gonna do that again.

2:13:02And so that was the thing, a lesson that I learned. So I'm interested now, this is why it is a very creative book, right? We are literally creating our lives. We learn through creating in small, lightweight, daily ways. It's the same muscles that we use to create our lives. So I've got pretty good muscles because I've been creating stuff my entire life. So I'm gonna put that to work in this next chapter, creating the life that I love. And I've got a bunch of indicators looking backwards. I've got a television show in development that I'm really excited about. A couple of companies I'm playing with that I'm not going to operate, but I'm going to share in the equity around building in the AI and creativity space, the intersection between art and the machines was fascinating to me.

2:13:46So in many ways, it's sort of like I cleaned out my closet and it feels good. I feel lighter, I feel smarter and still scared, still just 51, 49, but that 51 is propelling me to action. Yeah, that's cool, man. I'm excited to see what that's gonna look like for you. Thank you. And it is such a treat to be back on the show. Thank you so much for having me. what you guys are doing here is incredible. I love the, you know, the expansion of the vision and it's a treat knowing how, I mean, I'm one of the few people that know how long you've been doing this. Yeah, you do, because you've been in it longer than I have.

2:14:28You're one of the few that's been doing it longer. You're an absolute OG. And I think I said this in the first podcast that we did, but you've always been like a beacon, like somebody who is creating at a high level like doing it right with, you know, not just from a production value perspective, but from an integrity perspective. And, you know, as I look around and kind of canvas the environment these days, you know, it feels like those standards are being eroded and going the way of the dodo. And so I just wanna acknowledge you for that. And you have always been not only supportive of me, but like I said, like just an inspiration for the way that you have been this, you know, font of creativity and inspiration and wisdom for so many people.

2:15:21So, you know, I'm a fan dude. And I'm at your service. So thanks for coming and sharing with me today. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to be here. And should we just keep doing it? Yeah. Keep doing it. What choice? What choice do we have? We're alive, right? That's right. We're here to create. That's our number, that's our superpower. Keep showing us the way, Chase. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me as a guest, but I appreciate you. Peace.

2:15:54That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as podcast merch my books finding ultra voice of change in the plant power way as well as the plant power meal planner at meals.richroll.com if you'd like to support the podcast the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on apple podcasts on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

2:16:39Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

2:17:16Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. and of course our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:17:57Thank you.