Plant-Based Bassist Tanya O'Callaghan On How Changing Your Plate Can Change The World

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33:42All right, so pick up the bass. You're like, this is my thing. You become obsessed with it. You're in your first band. What happens from there? I joined my first band in my hometown and we were like super heavy metal, upside down crosses behind the drummer. Super fun. and started gigging almost immediately within the first few months. So I'm playing around, you know, playing locally and playing the small town venues and we're loading in as this heavy metal band. It was so fun. And then after that, I joined a couple of like corporate wedding bands. So that's where you kind of cut your teeth having to - Yeah, you gotta make some money.

34:22Be like, oh shit, I gotta make money off this. Yeah, cause it's just - You gotta be able to play the hits and then go do your own stuff on the weekend and not have to worry about making money doing that. Exactly, exactly. So I did a lot of bands in Ireland over this. So within the first few years of me actually picking it up and I did this music course, which although there was no bass teacher, there was a guitar teacher that was great. And he helped to guide me through like at least practicing some, you know, consistent workouts or whatever for your technicality. And he would challenge, you know, he'd make me be in these different bands.

34:55And then for the sake of the experience of doing an audition, he sent me to do an audition to a jazz college in Dublin. And it was I wasn't trying to get into the college. I was just going to have an experience. Part of our like we had to do a report back. We did an audition and this is how it went. But I did an audition and then the college accepted me. And it became this really funny thing because you're not supposed to get into college without the leaving certificate. You did anyway. you go back to the high school and say look at this it was pretty funny I was like oh I wasn't planning on getting in so I went to that college for a year um and I really I had a good time that's when I met because I'm totally self-taught so I'm going into this jazz college of these phenomenal musicians coming in from around the world that have jazz and classical backgrounds and I'm just like this chick from a small town Ireland that's playing in a rock band so it made me dive into play with some pretty incredible players from all types of styles of music but after a year the college was amazing and the people were lovely but they were really trying to get me like let's get you to stay here for four years and do a jazz degree and I was like but I really like gigging like I like being out playing I'd already realized that and I was starting at that time to get tv house band gigs so like Ireland's equivalent equivalent to the Saturday night show, stuff like that, you know, the late, late show and you're playing in the bands.

36:21And then off the back of that, you're getting these little gigs. And I was starting to get like a little sort of session. I didn't really know what it was yet, like a session musician. And the college was pushing me to stay. But in order to really like follow the criteria of that college and get this jazz master's degree, you're practicing nine, 10, 12 hours a day. And they didn't really encourage me gigging. So I left. Well, that's less surprising because it wasn't your path to become a jazz musician. That wasn't what your interest was. And once you developed the technique and understood like the training and had enough to take away from you, like getting a piece of paper saying you graduated doesn't really mean anything in the context of the career you're trying to build.

37:04Exactly, exactly. So again, it was just one of those pivots where it's like, okay, that was a great year. I met some great people that pushed me musically, and now I'm going to follow this trajectory. So at that stage, I was in about six or seven bands at a time. And are you living in Dublin at this point? Yeah, I'd gotten up to Dublin at this stage. For the first year, I was going up and down the train from my hometown. How far away is your hometown? It's only an hour. It's an hour and a bit. But it was funny because then when I moved to Dublin and the only place that we could afford to be was way outside the city.

37:36So it was actually further than where I was coming from my hometown. So I was getting up, you know, five and six o 'clock in the morning, base on back, two different trains up to the city, and then a big walk up a hill in to go to this jazz college. But it was a great year, you know, it was a great experience. But I just knew I wanted to play live. I was like, okay, this is my thing. So six or seven bands, you're just bopping around with all these bands. What was the kind of big break or inflection point? Like when did things start to kick into a different gear? So I'd done a couple years really gigging like the Irish scene, and I did a gig with Sharon Core from the Coors and that brought me abroad and I was starting to see that, oh, okay, this can be a career career.

38:19But at the same time, Ireland is small, which means it's a small scene. I was seeing that you sort of rotate in this circle of gigs and then that's all the gigs. So I need to go out. So I started thinking about trying to come to America or London and I had one band that were coming back and forth to like UK shows. And then I met Maynard Keenan from Tool. I was at a Tool show. I was over in Glasgow, one of my bands, and he, long story short, invited me to record in Arizona. And I was a massive Tool fan. But one of the things I'd never, like, I've never been someone who gets starstroke over anybody, usually just like a, you know, a philosopher or a chef or something.

39:00Again, very un-rock and roll. But Maynard invited me to Arizona when I was like 21. All right, hold on a second. So I need to unpack that a little bit more because I'm trying to understand how just meeting him backstage translated into him saying, come to Arizona and record on this album. And not for nothing, like Maynard is also a polymath who does many different things. He's got a whiner. He's got this crazy situation out in Arizona where all kinds of stuff is happening. So I think it was because I ended, so some of the crew I was working with in Glasgow were working the same show. So that's how we ended up all chatting backstage.

39:39And at that time, I was in this mad phase of conical rhythms, Indian music in metal. And Danny Carey from Tool does a lot of this really eclectic drumming over metal. So we were just having a very musical conversation that I think it was like me and Danny and Maynard chatting and one of the roadies I knew, and we're talking about music, like in depth, like, you know, just nerding out. whereas all the other people who especially the girls that had come backstage it was very like fangirl situation going on so we just were having this great conversation and at the time he was he already had Pussifer but he was sort of starting to think about doing another record so I think he just maybe saw some sort of passion in me about it and he said would you like to play on a track I'm thinking I mean yeah you're like gigging around in all these different bands trying to make ends meet.

40:32China exactly. This guy's like iconic. Exactly. Come to Arizona and play on my record. Yeah. So I flew home the next morning and my parents got this like very. How old are you at this time? How long ago was this? I was 20, 21, 2021. And my poor parents again, I like burst in the door. I'm like, I'm going to America. Like what? I'm going to America to play with. And they're like the guy from that band she listens to tool right which is kind of like scary like a little bit it's like a very I mean for a parent also you're like the tool guy yeah yeah I know yeah so I had uh exchanged a few emails then back and forth with Maynard to figure out when they were doing it and I sold I think I had like one bass I sold and a few hundred euros that I'd saved and I bought a ticket to Arizona and because it wasn't it wasn't a gig in the sense that like all these musicians were being hired.

41:28It's like, hey, if you're around, come. So it was a decision that I was going, okay, I should go and do this. This seems like this could be a catalyst for something else. So I saved, you know, I saved up my little few hundreds and I bought a flight to Arizona. Came out and recorded for about two weeks. Was that up in Jerome? Yep. Yeah, yeah. So that was my first. It's a trippy place. It's so beautiful and eerie and all the things at once. I really loved it there. But that was my first kind of dive into the US music scene. But Maynard taking a risk on me as a young player is something that really, you know, I'm forever grateful for because we didn't like we just recorded.

42:09We did some demos. He released some of the stuff I was on, but it wasn't that I was destined to be in a band with him. That was like a fun recording. Right, you were session music. Yeah, and he had a few friends come in and it was about jamming around. And when I look back, even at my gear, I always laugh at this. Like, I didn't have good gear. I had this beat up shitty old bass and these terrible pedals. But the experience of going in was so, so much learning because the guys that were also working with him, like, these are masters of their craft. And we just had a blast. Like, we recorded it all in his garage.

42:41And that left me very much like, whoa. If I can record and play with that level of artists, I think I need to go to the US because I've obviously done what I can in Ireland. I mean, a huge confidence booster, but also being in Jerome isn't like you're in the mix of some kind of community upon which you're going to build a career, right? So how do you take that experience and channel that into this decision to move to, I mean, did you know other people in the music business when you moved out? No, I didn't know anybody. And actually, it was funny because Maynard told me, don't move to LA. Yeah, that's not surprising.

43:22Yeah, because he had already done the whole, like a lot of artists do a chapter here and they're like, fuck LA. You build your career and then you... Then you bounce, basically. But it took a good few years because it's also not easy to just come here. I can't just come here as a whole visa process to work and all that. So I went back to Ireland and, you know, I just kept gigging and I was gigging around and I was in up to nine bands. at a time at that stage. I was doing three or four corporate bands. I did duo, I did trio. I was doing the TV stuff. And I was also trying to still do my activism stuff.

43:54And I think I was just, you know, really cutting my teeth for, I got to get out to America at some stage because I couldn't get it out of my mind that if I can play with Maynard over there, surely this is, something is happening I need to go to. But I tried London first because I thought, well, I'll pop over to London. It's right there. and the weather was too like Ireland. So LA was calling. LA was calling and sunshine really helped. So then I started this whole long process of how do I go to LA and stay in LA? Because it's really, you can only get a ESTA visitor visa at first so I can be here for 90 days.

44:31But I had no idea how expensive it was in LA comparatively to small town Ireland or even living in Dublin at that time. So I would come over and then within two weeks be totally broke and have to go home on my tail between my legs. It's not unusual. I mean, this is a really hard place to move to if you don't know people. It can be unbelievably lonely here. It's so spread out. Everyone's in their car. It's very difficult to make plans with people. People are not so receptive to meeting new people. Like if you're in New York City or London or you're bumping into people on the street all the time, it's a much more social, you know, there's more social grease, I think.

45:16And here you have to really work at it. And if you don't know anybody, it becomes like a very impenetrable kind of lonely place. It's very lonely. And I was really lonely at the beginning. And I was terrified, to be honest, because I didn't know, for me, LA was just Hollywood. You're like, so you go to Hollywood and that's what you do. Right. And then I arrived. You get off the bus. I mean, it's literally like the script, right? You pull up in the bus and you get out and you have your base. Base on my back. And you're like Hollywood in Vine. You don't realize that Hollywood is an idea more than it is a place.

45:53Completely. And you're like, this is it. Oh, it's awful. It's awful. And it's that exact scene. And I even, it's as bad as, I stayed in the Hollywood hostel because I thought, well, that's where you stay. And I didn't know anybody. So, and it's all I could afford. and there was a the first time there was like an ASCAP convention on so I figured well in like anything in life if you are trying to achieve something you should try and surround yourself with people who are already doing that thing so that you can kind of try to absorb it so I figured if I go to a few music conventions so ASCAP was happening on on Hollywood and Vine I can't remember what that hotel is so I checked in because I didn't have a car I'd fuck all money I'm like I'll stay here I was terrified because every night I was just like in the hostel with my base in the bed thinking this is it.

46:39You're going to get robbed. Yeah. This is how it's going to end. But every day of the convention that I would go, I would, you know, start these conversations and I was on my own. And so in hindsight, that was kind of a good thing because as scary as it was, it forced me to talk to people. I had to talk to people because I, you know, I'm like looking for a gig. I'm looking for information on where the gigs are happening. I didn't know anything and I didn't know one single person. So it forced me and I kept meeting all these really interesting characters and I couldn't believe it. It's like this guy was in Prince's band and this guy plays for Paul McCartney.

47:14And so I started to understand that, okay, these are the session players. The session musician ecosystem. Yeah. And I didn't even know that that's what I wanted to be at it because we didn't really have the same language around it in the Irish music scene. But it's also, like you said, like it's so lonely and I could sense immediately that it's kind of, you know, can be a city of sycophants as well. It's like, sure. A minute. Yeah, yeah. Everybody's talking to each other, but only if they can get something. But you slowly start, and I met a lot of, you know, questionable characters, and it was, you know, thankfully, I had sort of a good head in my shoulders for the most part.

47:51But there was a lot of, it could have been worse or it could have been dodgy. But then you start to meet really good people and stuff starts to slowly catalyze. Yeah, to navigate the sycophants and to realize who's transactional and who isn't and who's a bullshitter. I mean, so much bullshit. And then you realize like, oh, the people that are actually successful at this, they're actually not at these things talking to people because they're working and doing the thing and being professionals. But when you're new, you just want to meet anyone you can. But I think you're, I mean, I mean, you're a very good people person and you learn as I'm sure you have, like, yes, you have a talent.

48:32You have to be good at what you do. You have to excel at the skill, but you're in this really insecure economy because there's no job security. You're just bouncing around from, if you're a session player or you're in a band or whatever, or you're working production in film or television, you go job to job to job. And the people that are successful are the ones that are good. they show up on time, all that kind of, they're professional, but also like people like them, they wanna work with, they're like, oh, we have another thing, like let's get so-and-so. And you seem like somebody who understands that.

49:06I guess, I guess so, yeah. And it's like, cause when I was new and I was first there, you do, you just have to go around and talk to everybody, right? But then exactly like you said, the people that are really the top cats in this field, you're not gonna see them at everything. Right, they're not on the Sunset Strip, like going to all these, they're doing their thing. Yeah. And at first you have that FOMO in a way and you're like, oh, I have to be at every party. I'd have to be everywhere, which is important at the beginning when you're networking, which to an Irish person is just talking, you know.

49:38Everyone says, you got to network. I'm always laughing at that word because it seems so forced. What do I? Well, because it implies the transactional nature of it. Exactly. So I didn't like the language around that a whole lot, but you, you know, it was important to sort of dive in and go to all these jam nights and then start to see who who's really who's really working in this industry and who's really doing what and who are the go-getters and who are just the good people who's like good people because I met some really shitty people at the beginning and there was a lot of like trying to be taken advantage of and you start to filter out real quick okay I don't want to give any energy over here and these people are good and then you know as you show up enough times eventually they invite you up on stage to play it's like she's not going away.

50:22I just like let her up. So what was the big break in LA? What was the first? So LA, I started playing, there was a couple of jam nights that happened out here. I'd done some studio work with a producer. I had a band in Ireland that came back and forth twice and we did an album up in Laurel Canyon with a pretty well-known producer, Warren Horde. And that was interesting because I was like, okay, that's the studio side of it. But again, I couldn't work here. So I was going back and forth, back and forth. And so there's like a little studio thing on my CV for LA. And of course I had Maynard on my CV as far as my musical CV is.

50:55Sure, that's getting you in the door. Yeah, people are interested when you have some sort of a resume because all the other work I'd done didn't translate over here. They're big bands in Ireland or Europe, but nobody knows who they are here. Except one experience, Riverdance. The Liverdance. So you were in the Riverdance band for like 18 months or something like that yeah i toured that's like iconic it's so funny how that translates everywhere yeah i did 18 about 18 months total around the world and like we played in china and only olympic stadiums and it it's bigger than it seems like it's bigger than you too it's so bizarre though when you're in because it's just a not just a theater show but you know what i mean for us it's just part of the culture and yeah we go to these places and it's fans coming out for every dancer, every musician.

51:46The river dance was, that translates to some. People are more confused because when I say, I work with Maynard Keenan and I do the river dance. Right. How do I understand this? Yeah. They're just like, well, I guess you're diverse. There is a bit of that. But I think, because, you know, obviously in these jam scenes and what they're asking like, oh, who have you played? What have you done? So I did have a little bit of that. And then what was interesting when I first started doing that, the sort of top 40 hits that people are playing out here are totally different to what I grew up and was playing on in wedding bands back home.

52:19So I had to learn a lot of music that I wasn't that familiar with. So we, you know, the guys in the house bands at the Hollywood Jam started to let me jam. And over the weeks and months, you'd get these little gigs first as a local band. I played in like a bunch of rap bands. I was in Inglewood in a rap band for a couple of months. that was really fun I was in a gospel band for a while I was doing all these rounds I just at that time I would do any gig I'd just say yes I'll do it and then I got a gig with a pop artist called Jordan Fisher through like Disney someone had seen me play and that was in that realm in the pop space kind of a bigger one and then I went back I did a tour with him and I went back to start doing the jam scene in LA again and uh the drummer who played with Dee Snider played we played together and then it was like hey D's looking for a bass player for for a one-off show I thought perfect because I'm in this other gig and that's rad I kind of knew I knew who D was but I didn't really know much about his his whole entire back history and as me and D always joke we're like we're supposed to do one gig and then we ended up doing like two or three years touring.

53:27So you show up and you crush it and he's like okay I found my new bass player. Yeah it's great and I ended up becoming his MD as well and we did like two or three years together and I recorded some of the stuff on his second last record so D was a bit I guess the first bigger rock and roll one and then off the back of D I'd already started filling in for a friend who played for Stephen Adler because he was like double booked sometimes I was playing with Stephen from Guns N' Roses and then Whitesnake we were joking like like you have big hair but probably not the biggest hair well when I first joined Whitesnake and I know a lot of those guys long before I was in the band like we knew each because again, a lot, you know, people are session players and David had seen me play at some festivals where I was playing in bands before Whitesnake.

54:13So I guess it was in his head that when the position came open, he already had me in place. But when I first joined and we were doing like band shots, I was like, this is the first band, I don't have the biggest hair. That's so funny. That's a crazy story. It happened pretty quickly too. What do you make of that? It happened quickly once it really started rolling, but it feels like... Like kind of once you were in, you're in and it's a smaller community of people than maybe you might think. Yeah, it snowballs at a certain point, but like the years, the first few years in LA were rough. Like it was really rough.

54:51It was like, I think I'm gonna starve or not be able to fly home. Like at one stage, I remember I had a voucher for like a rice and bean burrito from Taco Bell. That's like all I had left. What kept you in it when it was that hard? I mean, it doesn't seem like there was a plan B, like this is it. You had to make it work. I think not having a plan B necessarily. But a lot of this, I think, comes back to the music and it being a platform or a vessel. There's something internal driving why I keep doing it because there's a bigger purpose for it all. So I don't really have a choice to not keep going in a way.

55:28And then just pure stubbornness. And there's something about resistance, you know. And it's just the audacity to think that you can do something. And if you have such an audacious goal, you know, at some point I was like, well, fuck it, I'll be a session player. I don't really know what that is, but I'm going to go do it. And that if I can keep growing this platform, then I can keep speaking for what, you know, my sort of path in life is all about. So it's a little bit of stubbornness and a little bit of audacity. Well, let's talk a little bit about how all of that works. Like, how are you using this platform?

56:02I know that, I mean, we have tons of overlap in our friend group and know lots of the same people. But one of the things that you've done that's really cool is this Highway to Health series that you did with Derek Green. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who I know through Toby Morse. That's right, yeah. And he's the guy and how do you say it? His name is Sepulchura. Sepulchura. Sepulchura, yeah. Yeah, legend. Yes, absolutely. So you did this like series where you interviewed all these people and talked about the impact of plant-based nutrition on health, et cetera. Like that's one of the things that you've done, but you've done a lot of things.

56:43And I wanna talk about this documentary project that you're working on now. All the things, yeah. Yeah, Derek is awesome. I love Toby and Derek and all that gang. He's a lovely human. Yeah, yeah. And again, it's one of those things like people see Derek perform and he's this big, scary metal guy, screamo, you know, heavy metal. He's a total pussycat. But, you know, we met years ago, music industry and same groups of friends and all that as well. And we were seeing all these similarities of our own frustrations with the misconception around how it must be hard to be healthy on the road. And Derek obviously is really representing in the male demographic, big, strong dude and vegan.

57:21And we were talking about, he was actually in Dublin with Kip and a few of like the advocacy world were recording for early iterations of a documentary. and I remember Derek was playing in Dublin and I was on a layover and we were just sitting comparing this idea that we both had to do like a plant-based show of some form and they were essentially the same thing. So I was like, why don't we join forces? Way more fun. So we just started filming. I put together a crew from Ireland and, you know, raised little funds and, you know, yourself, you're like, it'll only cost a little bit and then this big production happens.

57:57Like, fuck, now we've got to fundraise. This part sucks. but we we went around the world and covid obviously kind of stopped us like it did with many people but we had filmed quite a bit and the idea was just to show how easy it is to actually be healthy whole foods plant-based anywhere in the world because if derek and i can do it constantly on tour not knowing where our next meal is coming from and in this constant state of motion and dealing with you know ever-changing situations and we wanted to just show that it's it's it's actually very easy so with you know who we're connected to naturally for our friends are and musicians and whatnot we just started doing these interviews and we did a lot in brazil because he's got a big bass out of there and we went on board with like sea shepherd and we did ocean conservation we talked to ford about you know the the future of automotives and it was it's a fun little series and we're just now starting to actually kind of push it out slowly because like a lot of media projects, it's hard to find your footing and to get stuff out there.

58:57So we figured, you know, we'll record a bunch of it and just let it do its old school street team thing. Well, you, was it originally intended to be something that you would set up with a streamer or a network? We did film, yeah. And then COVID kind of derailed that and now it's like a YouTube thing? Yeah, because we filmed with the intent of let's do like season one and we'll do, you know, eight episodes but right as we finished filming um what we considered like to be season one um we had all these cool fun interviews with d we've moby we've you know kevin smith the usuals and then a load of random like just brilliant minds um the negotiations with the powers that be in a lot of these streamers and that the contracts were just so ridiculous that for what it's a mission aligned project.

59:46The whole point is to just put stuff out there that might inspire some people to, you know, think differently. And it was weird. We just kept getting asked to sign into these things, into perpetuity that they would own the content for seven years and maybe. So we just pivoted at that point because no one in any of the arts really knew what was happening. Obviously, through COVID, it was difficult. So it's like, well, let's just kind of chop it up into smaller segments and start putting it out and see if it takes its own wings. And are you going to continue to make new episodes? Well, we've so much content from the original one.

1:00:20So first we'll put all of that out. And then hopefully, hopefully we'll film more down the line while we tour. Because it makes most sense when we're on the road. And if we can kind of overlap or sort of chase each other's tails on tour. Because he's doing, I'm going on tour starting like two weeks. And I'll be out for three or four months. And Derek's out on their farewell cycle starting already. So it's kind of about catching where we are. Yeah, I mean, where are you going to overlap? I guess, well, in the heavy metal world, like the big thing is all these European festivals, right? So all the bands are kind of in the same place at the same time and going from one festival to the next.

1:00:55Well - Is that true? That's what we all want. But what happens is like if you play Hellfest or Grass Pop or, you know, all the Sweden rock, the typicals in that run, which are the most amazing festivals to play. Usually you check the flyer and you're in, your friend's doing Friday, you're doing Saturday, you're the friends are doing - And they've left before you. you're always all that yeah yeah yeah which is the only frustrating thing like i was just talking to my friend this morning who uh plays with steve hackett genesis and he's in guadalajara when i land with bruce and we're playing the same venue but a day apart and we're chasing for like two weeks we're on the same route so there's a lot of that with touring musicians we're just like i almost saw you and how do you use your your platform kind of in an analog way when you're up in front of all these people in real life all the time like what is the what does that look like for you as somebody who spends a lot of time considering or thinking about like you're this public person, you have this thing you care about, you want to carry this message?

1:01:50Honestly, just trying to live by example. Like for me, social media is a love-hate relationship. Like for many people that sometimes I just want to delete it all. But then I think, you know what, I love food and I love this travel that I do. I just post about how simple it is because the curiosity then that People are messaging me all the time from all over the world. Food looks amazing. I had no idea you could eat that. I had no idea, you know, where'd you find this restaurant? So for me, I just like to try to show how easy it is. And also, you know, in doing so, you're supporting a smaller economy and you're helping restaurants around the world or whatever.

1:02:28So a lot of it is food for me. And then I really like conversing with people who think extremely differently. me so I like to kind of get involved in while I'm traveling in sort of very, very different juxtaposed world. So my use of the platform in that sense is not always online. You know, a lot is going on offline as well and behind the scenes and opening a lot of dialogue as I travel with unlikely, very, very unlikely people and very unlikely industries as well. So as far as the use of social media and the platform itself, like in a visual way, it's mostly just food and health and kind of breaking down that stereotype of rock and roll.

1:03:11And you must be partying all the time. Like, oh, I do shots of wheatgrass. Yeah. I mean, you want to know it's really punk rock? Yeah. Like not partying and trying to get to bed on time and treating your body right. Well, hey, no judgment either. I have friends that can party like actual rock stars and seem to be fine. But it's just. God bless those people. I know. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you do it though. Like you're playing these gigs, you don't finish until late. You have this rider, so there's food backstage, but still then you're immediately on a bus or going to an airport, you're in airports.

1:03:43We all know what airport food is like. You arrive at your hotel, room service is terrible. Maybe you're not near a city. There's no happy cow, friendly, vegan restaurant that's within walking distance. Like how are you putting all those pieces together and keeping it, you know, keeping it healthy? It's a combination, I guess, of I've been doing it so long now. I feel like I've been on the road pretty consistently for like 10, 12 years, like without stopping between all the bands. So you get pretty smart about the small things, like bringing snacks and bringing like, because you've had too many situations where you've arrived in wherever, Sarajevo, there's nothing open.

1:04:26And you at least have your dried mango and mixed milk with you. You have like one like suitcase just full of... No, I don't bring, I'm not that extent, but I always have like in my backpack, I have some snacks for like the emergency break seal if hungry, you know, the famine spuds are in there. But really it's like eating sides has been a big thing. I always talk about like no matter where you are in the world and steakhouses or anything like that are always gonna have sides. Like most places have vegetables, but when you're just used to ordering a certain way, because food is absolutely about psychology.

1:05:01For me, I just, if the restaurant seems hard for a vegan to eat at, you just look at the sides and then you ask for all the sides as a dish, as a main. But being prepared then with some snacks as well. And when I'm home, especially, like I really stay, I'm all about home cooking and sort of stocking up. Well, you live out in the middle of nowhere in the desert though, right? I do. It's not like there's a whole bunch of restaurants that you're going to be going to. Which is probably good because it makes me cook. It makes me cook a lot, but you just, yeah, you just get really used to it. It's like, this is my normal.

1:05:35So it's not, you know, it's not something that I'm going to ever, oh, just because there's only fast food around, I'm going to eat fast food now. Because I know how I've done that before and it makes me feel totally crap. And then you try and perform on top of that. Like I used to joke with some of the guys I'd be on the buses with. And the hardest place actually to be consistently healthy is the US because most of the bus stops, they're not necessarily the East and West Coast, but the bus stops in those little strip malls that have the Wendy's, the McDonald's, the Burger King, whatever. And then everyone's going there.

1:06:12Now they have Chipotle's, Chipotle's save us a lot. That really is a lifesaver. Yeah, I'm so sick of it though. wherever you go, like you can get rice and beans. I know. And so fritas, you're like, oh, yay. But at least there's that. But I used to do, you know, because you can get veggie burgers, veggie vegan burgers, whatever. But I would still feel crap if I ate. Yeah, because it's still fast food. It's just fast food. And I just don't like how it makes me feel. So I'd rather go into the petrol station or the gas station, as you say here, and get an apple, a banana, a bag of popcorn, and a bag of nuts and water and wait until I get to the hotel than just go and get the veggie supersized meal or whatever because it's convenient.

1:06:53Because I know how it feels. You're already tired enough on tour and then to put the wrong fuel in and to have to walk out and play, like especially in festival season, you're playing to 80, 100 ,000 people and you're like, you need to be fueled correctly. So it's just something I don't compromise on, you know? What is that like when you're walking out on stage and there's that many people in the crowd and they're going bananas? It's a trip. It's a trip. And it's funny, though, like the bigger the crowd, the easier it is. Because it's so surreal when you're playing to the sea of dots of everybody jumping up and down.

1:07:31And it's really because of the bands that I've been playing with over the years. It's pretty special because you're playing legendary hits. You're playing stuff, you know, Dee Snider's doing I Want to Rock or We're Not Going to Take It. And everyone's like bouncing like they're teenagers again and Whitesnake songs. So it's an adrenaline rush. It's, I would imagine something similar to when you're deep in it with your ultramarathons. But it's also for me, the only time that I'm really present, which is such an interesting thing when I, when I step away and I, because I'm actually quite, I appear extroverted, but I'm an introverted extrovert.

1:08:09so stage like I don't like being in the crowd or having to be in a big crowd so when I'm on stage I feel safe and I'm very very present because like I can only be here locked in with my drummer I'm in this moment as this is as present as it gets and this energy that's coming and it's also really cool because you play all over the world and you look out into crowds of people who you're looking at however many thousands of people probably have loads of stuff on a daily basis they debate and fight about, but music then has this beautiful unity, where for that 90 minutes or two hours or three hours, everybody's just in it for music, which is really beautiful.

1:08:49And there's like this respect, and that's kind of what I vibe off the whole crowd for.

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1:10:33What has been the most surreal, like live performance experience that you've had? Ooh, it's been a few. Actually, probably more recently, we finished up the European Whitesnake run at Hellfest, which is one of my favorite festivals. Hellfest? Hellfest. It's amazing. We're playing it again with Bruce. I love this festival. and Steve Vai joined us for Still of the Night. So we had Steve Vai come out and play on Still of the Night. So we had the original, you know, Whitesnake to play with Steve Vai and have me there with Tommy Aldridge on drums and David Coverdale on vocals. I was like, what the fuck am I doing up here?

1:11:14This is such a trip. That was amazing. That was really, I'll never forget that because obviously Steve is a legend in his own right and then to have David decide to bring him out for that song and nobody was expecting it. And, you know, he's on the original recording. So that was pretty incredible. But I've had a few of those. I had some amazing experiences with Dee as well. We did some really fun stuff in South America. And yeah, it's... Where are the best crowds for this kind of music? Is it South America? Is it Japan? Is it like Germany? South America is pretty spectacular. Something about rock and roll really is still alive down there.

1:11:55And also when you're playing, and this also, this can apply to anywhere really Eastern, like we just played in Sarajevo recently. This is one of the most amazing experiences because I don't know if you ever heard Bruce's story with Sarajevo in the 90s. No. Oh, it's phenomenal. I'll let him tell it properly when you guys get together. But he was the only person that went in and played music during the war. And it's this whole beautiful, crazy story. So Bruce is a legend in Sarajevo because he, as he'll say himself, that he was just young and stupid and didn't know what he was actually doing. But it was incredible.

1:12:28No one would go in. Even the UN were like, you're crazy. So Bruce went in and played a gig in the middle of the war and he became a legend in Sarajevo. And he hadn't been back since. And we went back last year to do the concerto. And everyone was just crying in the crowd. It was phenomenal because guys that were now our crew and or in the crowd were kids at the gig when Bruce came in, when these people had no hope in this crazy, crazy war that's going on. And he just went in and played music and they loved him so much for that. And then you're back there 20-something years later and he's just a god in Sarajevo.

1:13:11so the energy is like something i'll never be able to explain or experience i've never seen something people cry and like freak out because they hadn't seen him since and then we did this show and also we were doing this really beautiful unique show with the concerto orchestra doing deep purple and some of his own songs and the songs that would have been songs he played in the 90s when he went in and played this tiny dive club so crowd wise you know you have those special attachment type scenarios and especially in like if you're in the Balkans or Eastern Europe and places like South America where they've had a harder time coming out of heavier times like that rock rock music was a big anchor for people it's like the church of of rock and roll so the energy is pretty spectacular and often if you're in countries that are poor or lower income countries where it's a big deal to save up and go to a show so they're going like full on it's not like I'm going to a show this weekend this is a big deal to go to these shows so it's amazing for us as bands to have that energy and yeah who are like like the people that you would love to play with like who are the you know the icons like who are your influences you know it's funny i the influence question is always lost on me because of how like i didn't come to music because i was inspired by i saw bass player and did you know what i mean it's not the typical but there's a couple of bands like I always, I always love like Radiohead.

1:14:38So unique. I absolutely love their music, like bands that are not necessarily in the heavy realm, but. Have you met those guys? Have you met Radiohead? No, my friend's actually recording with them this week and I need to, again, they're one of those, like you never see them anywhere. No, I know. And Colin Greenwood's one of my favorite bassers. They live in like Oxford or, I mean, they probably all live in different places. Yeah. Yeah, I think they do. But like bands like that, I just find, because they're so different musically. But there's some, I mean, if we're talking about like, who can you bring back as well?

1:15:09I'd love to play with Miles Davis. I'd love to, you know, play with a lot of bands that aren't around anymore. I love Fleetwood Mac. I also love really heavy music like Gojira and Meshuggah and stuff like that. So I'm very, there's not like one band that I can say, oh, that's my goal because I wasn't planning any of this anyway. And I ended up in some pretty badass bands and that's, if it all stopped tomorrow in music, I'm like, that was a good run. That was a pretty good run. Also, not for nothing, there aren't that many women, are there in this world, in this subculture that are playing at the level that you're at?

1:15:46More now, but not a lot. No, we're definitely, and we're all friends. There's like five of us. Are there other bass players? Yeah, there's like five women bass players and we're all friends and it's funny. So now there's more and more, but in different genres, is but it's absolutely still in the minority yeah but hopefully that is changing over time you know it's it's just by being out there and doing it you're not normalizing it you do see more and more young players coming up young girls playing and it's great like killing it yeah it's democratized it in a way right it's pretty wild though seeing that level of um musicianship from these like tiny kids on the internet like oh fuck i gotta go home and practice how often do you practice what is the what is the routine to stay tight well coming up to a tour I will lock myself in the room for a few weeks prior every day like because I'm usually learning a new set so I've never heard any of Bruce's music before so I have to go listen to it so I have a ritual that I always do which is I listen to the music for weeks prior if I have the time now this is very different if someone calls you and says I need you tomorrow but if I have the ideal situation I'm listening in really good bass headphones for a couple weeks i'm out and about listening listening listening because it has to be like in you the music has to be internalized so then by the time because i do everything by ear um so by the time i go to sit and learn it i'll notice if there's mistakes so you're not reading sheet music no no i did over the years a little bit for certain gigs but it just hasn't it hasn't really been needed so much haven't been offered and then i just used my ear for absolutely everything, Riverdance or whatever it is.

1:17:25Riverdance. Is Riverdance still touring? Riverdance is still around. It's about to start, oh God, I don't know. How many years? How long has this been going on? Like 30 years? I should know this, but it's definitely the guts of 30 years. It's just, yeah. And it does its residency all the time. And it's opening again in the theater in Dublin, which is wild. It's huge. Speaking of Dublin, do you go back to Ireland much? As often as I can. As often as I can. Like on this tour. So after we do South America, and then we start in England. There's about five days in between. So I'm going to pop home, see my granny, because she's 96, and pop home and see her, see the family, spend a few days at home and then bounce off to...

1:18:03So ideally in between tour runs, I can go and do a little stop off in Europe. You're not going to make a pit stop in Greystones and jump into the Irish Sea with the laddies? Every time I go, the lads are like, come on, I'm like, oh God. Steve and Dave. Maybe. You've done it, right? I have. Yeah, it's been a while. I should, I should. I always go into them. We're talking about Steve and Dave Flynn, the happy pair of guys who've been on the show before. I mean, they've really changed Ireland's relationship with food. Big time. Almost single-handedly. Big time. They're so influential there. Yeah.

1:18:33I thought it would never happen in Ireland. What is it like now? I think it's grown exponentially thanks to the lads, a lot of thanks to the lads, but it's also a small country, so it's easier to see change when you're talking about such a small country. It's much harder to see this in the US when you're talking about like what 330 million people versus 5 million people. It's really exciting that I go home now and all like the petrol stations have even the shitty fast food, everything has a vegan option. But, you know, it's a hot topic as well because we're farming country. And I mean, there's a whole other rabbit hole to go down, but it's a big problem that like the farmers aren't getting the support that they should be.

1:19:13And so it creates this divide between the plant-based vegan movement And it shouldn't because there should be a unity in the middle of it all. Because it's perceived as an attack on the agrarian culture or the farmers themselves and their lifestyle. Which is absolutely not what the intention is or it should be. It should be a total unity happening there. But, you know, the way that the mainstream media and governments are often set up is to keep us divided on these issues. Are there subsidies in Ireland like there are here that are underwriting some of the animal agriculture? Yeah, I think they're not on the scale of here, but they absolutely exist.

1:19:51And it's, you know, I mean, here is out of control. And until we get private lobbying and subsidies out of food and politics, I don't think we're going to have any chance. It really is, you know, the stone that's keeping us weighted down, which sucks. We should be able to see change faster in a place like Ireland. But at the same time, what's really interesting, because I've been away for so many years, when I go home, I'm starting to see this performative political thing happening in Ireland now that's kind of mimicking what's happening over here. Like we have, I didn't grow up under this umbrella of feeling that we had like a left and a right.

1:20:29I hate the labels. I hate this like sides game that politics plays, but we are getting those extreme lefts and extreme rights in Ireland now, which is really weird because it's happening at the same time. We're also seeing a lot of positive change but you know we it's funny because Ireland's amazing I love being Irish I love the banter I miss the crack all that and when I say crack I mean fun not the drug but we also have you know a crazy corrupt political system like everywhere else but we're small and the world sees us as like all fun and shits and giggles but uh we have we have a lot a lot of positive things happening in the past few years my generation really stood up against the whole, you know, church and this institutionalized vibe that we grew up under and trying to get away from.

1:21:18But the two things are happening at once. And it's kind of frustrating because you think, oh, I got the food, the change, you see it there. But then the pressure on the farmers is creating also this big fight, this infighting that's happening. I hope that it just doesn't end up making it erupt. Well, you got to figure out a way to pave a path forward for the farmers that is economically viable for them and respectful of how they, the tradition and the culture, like can you transition away from the way you're doing things to use that land for something better and to make that like an attractive on-ramp for them where they can take care of their families and make a living and all of that.

1:22:01And until you unravel that knot and figure it out, you're asking, of course they're gonna be defensive and interpret it as an assault on, you know, who they are or their identity. 100%. And that doesn't, nobody's going to, that's not a recipe for change. No, it's absolutely not. And putting like each side pressuring each other is just ridiculous. It's two sides of the same coin. Like we all really want the same outcome as humans. But that's, I mean, I get really excited about things like cellular agriculture and if we could scale that up and if that's what farmers could transition to or, you know, rewilding, obviously all this good stuff.

1:22:37but it has to be, like you said, it has to be incentivized, it has to monetize. It doesn't make economic sense to just ask a farmer to cull his herd down. Of course not. It's ridiculous, especially generational farmers. It's absolutely unfair. But the way that the media sets it up, that we're always in these two different echo chambers fighting with each other and not getting to this. It's actually the system that's skewed. The sides probably agree on more than, we're here fighting about one thing and we have 99 other things in common. I like what you said earlier about putting yourself in a position to have conversations with people that see the world very differently from you.

1:23:14And you have that opportunity because you're meeting so many people and traveling all over the world. And because you're so well-traveled, you have an appreciation for different cultures and different perspectives. And I really think that if we wanna solve our problems, you have to figure out how to have a respectful, compassionate conversation with somebody who sees the world very differently than you. And right now, my sense is that that has really broken down and it's a lot of people shouting at each other. Yeah. And I don't know why, I mean, I guess I do know why we do it, but I find it very exciting to talk to someone who is going to trigger a new thought for me.

1:23:54Who was it that said, I don't like that man, Lincoln, I don't like that man very much, so I must get to know him. I love that. I think it was Abraham Lincoln. said that. So how do you practice that? Well, I guess it all started because touring and traveling. I started to see, especially in the US, like for, from an outsider point of view, and I love the US, obviously, it's given me so many amazing opportunities. And I love living here. But I started to hear so much of this negative talk about each other, the size, which team are you on? And I never liked it. And I can, I'm a neutral outside source.

1:24:29And I consider myself politically stray until someone proves that they can actually commit to completing a promise. But out of sheer curiosity, when I'm touring and I'm talking to people every day that are awesome, amazing people, like really sweet, reminds me of home, the Midwest, the South. And then I'm coming back to New York or LA and I have friends who are bitching about people from these states. Like, that's so unfair. Have you ever even been there? Have you had a conversation with someone? And also you see, because if I turn on the TV in wherever, Arkansas or Mississippi or Texas, I'm immediately seeing a different rhetoric happening and almost different news, right?

1:25:13And then you're in LA or San Francisco or New York and you turn on the TV and so you start to become very aware that there's a reason that people are having these very divisive debates and conversations. But then you're out and about and you're going to your gigs and your fans and people around are just amazing people. they're all lovely and they're all just going about their day-to-day lives and they have different differences of opinions but everybody is innate I believe people are inherently kind and I believe that the system is what's keeping us divided I'm constantly stopping people when they say mean shit like that about each other you know it's COVID just escalated so badly and that's the reason that I left LA for a while I was like I can't suddenly people who were great friends and loved each other last week are like, I'm never talking to that person again, because they have a different opinion, whatever it was about, masks or vaccines or politics or whatever.

1:26:04And they just forgot that they were friends and it just really escalated it. So I had to sort of separate myself from a lot of people in the city and just step outside because I'm okay with people having different opinions and being at table with people who have very different opinions, actually, because I think it's really interesting. You have to be around people with different opinions, if for no other reason than to stress test your own ideas. Practice patience with each other. Yeah, the idea that you're gonna immunize yourself against people who have a different sense of the world creates a fragility.

1:26:38Don't you wanna be robust and resilient, not just in your body and in your mind, but in the way that you interact with people and exposing yourself to people who have, you know, very different ideas and learning how to get along with them is something we should be embracing and seeking out, not avoiding and trying to isolate ourselves from. I think that's where all the growth is, actually. I think, you know, that's what we forget. It's in those conversations that both parties are gonna, and I don't mean political parties, but you know, both, it's so funny now, you should be so careful I was laughing about this the other day because someone asked me.

1:27:17I'm going to get you in trouble here. Oh, I'm going to be cancelled by everyone. It's fine. Someone said UK to me about Ireland. Are you from the UK? And I said, I'm from the Republic of Ireland. I'm an Irish Republican. As in, I'm from the geographical Republic of Ireland. It is a republic. Yes, it's a republic. And then they thought that I was a Republican. and I was like, I didn't say either. It just got lost in this very defensive. It all went off the rails. It was pretty funny. I was like, okay, here we go. I don't know. I think that all change comes from these conversations. And I mean, your platform's amazing for that because you're bringing on so many people from different walks of life and different talk trains where a lot of the time, even in our own movement, in the animal rights and vegan movement, which I get frustrated with all the time.

1:28:06And that's why I kind of stay on the outskirts. There's a lot of amazing people doing amazing things, but there's also a lot of ego leading it the wrong path and going down these echo chambers that are just detrimental to the cause overall. And I know and I understand most of it comes, a lot of it comes from passion. But if you let anything be led with ego, you're just going to totally fuck it up. Yeah, I mean, that's true in every aspect of life. Everything. I think you need change makers, change agents, activists, and revolutionaries and catalysts of all kinds. And some people are hardwired to be a frontline, you know, sign carrying activist who's shouting.

1:28:50I was. Yeah, you were. I'm really not wired for that. I try to carry the messages that are important to me in a gentler way and in a different way. But I think it's about having a diversity of voices and opinions, but also within a community of people that feel strongly about a subject matter or certain thing that they would like to see change or evolve in the world, that you need a diversity of voices within those communities. and then that community has to deploy its energy outward rather than focusing on themselves and the preaching to the choir thing. Like at some point, it's just, I'm not interested in spending my time, talking to the people who are already on my page about a certain issue.

1:29:40Like, I don't know what that, I mean, it helps, it helps like the community kind of cohere and congeal and creates a sense of belonging to something, I suppose. But ultimately it becomes, it doesn't serve anything other than to strengthen one's sense of allegiance to a tribe and affirm their identity. But it's not actually moving the needle in terms of any kind of real change. No, no. And that's because a lot of the game-changing conversations can be considered a bit boring as well if it's not that kind of full-on activism. You know, there's all these spaces that are so exciting for like innovations and materials and food.

1:30:26And I don't know why we're not, because not everyone's going to come at this from ethics when we're talking about just like, you know, the movements we're in. And nobody wants to be condescended to or moralized. So you have to create a way forward that is attractive to somebody. And economically. and you know to these industries and to you know it has to work in the world as well for for it to really be embedded and to to get like um to get to like a critical mass or social tipping point with all of this you just you need all like you just said you need all the parts like there's room for everyone at the table but we have to when you get and i'm just using the vegan movement as example because we're in it but when you get for instance like the clean meat cellular agriculture which I think is amazing.

1:31:09I think it's a game changer. Everybody wins. But you also have activists trying to take it down because one cell originally came from an animal. Right, purity. The purity is just... At the cost of actually changing something in a real way. And that can be really detrimental and dangerous for a movement to move forward. So it's like accepting it's progress. It's not perfection, right? You're just trying to move the needle towards a social tipping point to make this a kinder world in whatever way we can, because we all have blood in our hands. We have iPhones. We exist in a world where it's almost impossible to have a little bit of blood in your hands.

1:31:48But if we know and we can choose to make these decisions daily when it comes to our food and how we exist in that space and we know, OK, well, that's how the markets work. If you send a market signal as a consumer, if I'm buying this, it's going to send a signal that there's more demand for that. And the industries will change because I don't think that these, you know, these industries, it's not that they're nefarious and waking up every morning like, ha ha. Twirling their mustaches. We're going to pull one over other people. They exist because we fund them. They're responding to market forces.

1:32:21100 % and or subsidies. So like you both have to change, but that takes individual action, which people think is too hard, but individual action seems hard, but then collectively it is collective action and sending as a consumer like those. That's why I'm so passionate about this space because it's so easy to decide daily everything you buy is a vote with your wallet. And we all work hard to earn our money. And why would we spend it on this, you know, keeping this in existence but you know we're still looking away a lot we're really good at looking away and morally compartmentalizing these things so if we can just sort of step back and look and go okay even if like I'm always encouraging people to just be plant-based a few days a week one day a week try it a meal a day like give it a go and then you know if people get into it great but this going extreme purists on things in any in any movement is you're just scaring people a lot of the time.

1:33:22So you're in the deep South, you're on tour, maybe you're in Arkansas or Mississippi or rural Louisiana or something like that. And you come upon somebody and you find yourself in a conversation. And suddenly this person seems curious and receptive to they're like, wow, this Tanya, like I've never seen anyone like Tanya before. Like what is she, you know, what is this person all about? and then there's an opening where they're like how do I make that lifestyle change like what do you say to that person who suddenly seems receptive to doing something different usually something like you're already vegan because you just you're vegan but you also eat meat and cheese so I look at it I already I look at these things in reverse because I always find it really funny when people say that it's hard or it's, you know, extreme, because everybody eats pasta, pizza, potatoes, broccoli, fruits, veggies.

1:34:26I mean, if you're going to tell me you don't eat any of those things, good base to start with. So I'm like, you're already vegan. You just, you also eat meat and dairy. So it's about kind of breaking down that, what people might think is complicated around food. But also, like I said earlier, just say, if someone's asking about, for instance, how do I eat out? Order the sides instead or try to add more veggies to every meal. But I'm not a big fan of the labels of the diet. You know, so I try to keep the buzzwords out a lot because for some reason they're a big trigger if you're saying like vegan or vegetarian.

1:34:59I mean, I'm not sure why because it's literally about being kind to animals. I don't know why it got tagged with like the tagline of it being extreme choices. It was all that blood you were throwing all over people. back in the day, Tanya, it's your fault. It's my fault, I'm very sorry. At least I got it out of my system young, I'm sorry. But what about the why when somebody's like, well, explain to me like why I should care about this or why I should do this. Like, obviously it's working for you. You seem really healthy and energetic and you have this amazing career and you seem happy and you care about this.

1:35:31Like, why should I care about this? Yeah, well, sometimes you're gauging like if a person's trying to come at something from a health perspective, if they have a very obvious health issue, Of course, you can go with the, we know, like the science is stunningly clear that there's a serious benefit for heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, you know, all these, the obvious things. But if it's not a health thing, then maybe it's animals. Maybe it's, well, do you really love animals? Have you ever looked into what, you know, mass animal agriculture actually looks like and what factory farming looks like?

1:36:02Because, you know, people are like, oh, I get grass fed. Like, it's funny that everybody's saying they get grass fed when it's very small, very, very minimal percentage that actually is. So I guess you're trying to gauge what the person is curious about. Is it their own health or is it maybe they love animals? But the cool thing about the whole plant-based umbrella, it's about the closest thing to a panacea we have because you look at ocean acidification, rainforest deforestation, antibiotic resistance, zoonotic diseases. Like there's no real negative to shifting towards this because for your own health, obviously the health of the planet and then all these ripple effects that it has out.

1:36:42Surely one of these things speaks to you. Do you have children? Like this is what we're doing to the planet and their generation is going to be affected by this. The planet's going to be fine. You know, I hate when you get the sort of performative activism of save the planet. Of course, we all want to save the planet, but the planet's going to be fine. But whether or not we want to exist here on a healthy planet while we're here and your kids and their kids. So, you know, I often talk to older families who have two and three generations that like by the, you know, they're starting to shift toward plant based because they saw the soil, like, you know, places.

1:37:18And I was talking to a farmer and his family in Kansas a couple of years ago, and he was telling me the story of how it was when his granddad was on the land and how different it was by the time he had to work under the contracts for Big Agri. and they're tied into using these specific, you know, fertilizers and pesticides. The soils changed, the food changed, the financial system structure changed for his family. And then he's like, I don't want to pass this down to my son and their kids. So they were starting to kind of think about shifting. But a lot of, you know, the information is being kept away.

1:37:54So I really like getting into, it just depends on where the person is coming from. If someone's asking you from a health perspective, I'm like, go listen to Rich Roll and Simon Hill. Read these books. But that's the really cool thing about this whole sort of movement per se. There's a positive no matter what way you're looking at. There's really no negatives that we've yet to find. It is interesting that what's good for the microcosm is good for the macrocosm. What's good for the body is also in the interest of the planet. and future generations. It's not about perfection. Of course, choices that we make are going to, you know, create downstream consequences as a result of being something that has to consume in order to live.

1:38:44But can you make the kinder, gentler choice? And as it turns out, actually serves your own physical health. and it's taking a positive vote for the planet as well in the future generation. So, I love the way you characterize that. It like checks all these boxes at once, but in terms of how you carry the message or speak to people, trying to figure out what their values are and what they care about, I think is where you find the opening. It's important because we can't all just attack each other because I believe this and you believe that. So you must be wrong. Or, you know, they think you might, you must be wrong.

1:39:24It's, you were never going to get anywhere. Well, wait, do you see the comments on this video and YouTube underneath of people shouting about? Oh yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure, you know, at a certain point you just, you get a seriously thick skin. You're like, I came here to hear about Tanya, the bassist and heavy metal. And I got a, I got a dollop of the vegan world. I didn't ask for that. I will say I wish the word didn't have to exist because I wish none of us needed labels and I wish it was just normal to try to live as kindly as possible as we're here. I feel like the labeling of each other is...

1:39:57So I'm with you on the vegan comments in the vegan comments section. That's a whole other tangent on keyboard warriors and this thing that we do of like, would this person say it to your face? That's why conversation is so... and really having conversations with people that think completely different. And music is the great unifier that transcends all of that and brings people together. Do you know Maggie Baird? Of course, Maggie's awesome. So I was thinking like, could you enlist like support and feed on the tour in the way that she does for Billy when Billy's touring? I would love to, I must actually ask Maggie about that.

1:40:33I haven't talked to her in a little while. We did one of her live. It's really fun cooking with her on Instagram when the signal's not working properly. I'd love to do something like that and actually Bruce had said I don't know if we'll be able to implement much on this first round because we're kind of testing the waters but he's very interested in like environmental ways to like what what can we do that's less impactful like when we're in certain countries we can take trains instead of you know because traveling is obviously nowhere near the impact of food impact but I'd love to enlist and start to that's a big passion for me is connecting the right people, like connecting people who think...

1:41:10Yeah, you got to talk to Maggie right away. Yeah, that'd be really, really cool. But I think, I don't know if they're doing it in the stadiums, just doing it in the stadiums with just Billy at the moment, or if they've, I think they were doing something with Coldplay as well, actually. I'm not sure. I must ask her, but it's so interesting. But I would love to, that's the thing, you're always trying to gauge, like it's one thing for me to bring in the backstage to be mostly plant-based or, you know, I'm bringing the bands out. Right, but how do you take that out of the backstage and into the experience of the people that are attending the show?

1:41:41That's the cool thing though, the one when I dabble with the whole, well, I just delete social media because I kind of hate it thing. But when you have fans from all these bands you work with over the years that follow you for music usually, and then they actually start to see about the food or the projects that you're doing and the work with the nonprofits or whatever, that's really cool because that's a way of showing because people get interested in what do you do day to day when you're not on stage. So it's kind of a good way of using your platform, just living your life honestly on social media, which is these days, you know, not the way you're going to monetize anyway.

1:42:20No. Yeah, you got to keep that stuff at arm's length. Yeah, I'm constantly being asked to do like brand shout outs and that and I can't do anything because when I do a lot of due diligence on anything I get involved in and it's so funny. Nothing lives up to your standards. Well, I'm hardly going to. I think a lot of people would want to know about the beauty routine. There's not really one. I'm very lazy. I'm pretty lazy. I mean, I don't even know what that looks like because I just like water and moisturizer are what I answer to that question all the time. That's so funny. Not enough sleep, too much coffee and veggies.

1:43:00But we don't have that same culture in Ireland. I didn't grow up under like an obsessive sort of aesthetic beauty like regimen for women. It was, you know, I grew up very just playing out in the dirt. And I guess I kind of became a bit more of a stage persona in what I do. But I try to avoid the obsession of all of that and just stay healthy. And I really believe that like when people ask me, what do you do? What's your, like when they frame it in the beauty regime thing. I'm like, I think it's internal. It's what you eat. It's staying hydrated. Like I drink a lot of herbal tea. I drink a lot of water and I eat clean, whole foods, plant-based, vast majority of the time.

1:43:38So I think that maybe helps keep me put together somewhat. Maybe. There might be a connection there. Maybe. I don't know. Because I tell you what, if I didn't eat this way and practice this way of living, I think I would have fallen apart on the road by now because I've seen it so many times, a crew, especially crew, like older crew have been on the road forever and they all have diabetes or they have hypertension and they're eating fast food and drinking, you know, fizzy drinks all day. And it's very hard to live like that. And I would hate to feel that crap on the road because it's hard enough to be on the go every day for three or four months at a time.

1:44:16It's amazing how many bands that were huge in the, you know, 80s and 90s now are having this, you know, success touring and these guys are in their 70s, you know? I know. And it's forcing them to be healthy. Yeah, yeah. Because there's so much money at stake too. Like, you know, it's sort of like, do you wanna keep doing this? All right, well, you're gonna have to, you know, let go of that, you know, notion that you have about what rock and roll is in order to do it. It's pretty funny. You get like Tommy Aldridge, Whitesnake drummer. Tommy's in his 70s, he's amazing. But he's been cycling every day since he was in his teens.

1:44:51So he's, you've got the guys that always were healthy. And then you've got the ones who went hardcore rock and roll and had to do a 180 to get out of it. And redo it. Yeah. So now backstage looks very different. Who's the healthiest person in heavy metal? Me. Good for you. No, I don't know. There's a lot, you know, the thing is that I always say. Do you know this band Parkway Drive? No of them, but I don't know. Yeah. So Ben Gordon is the drummer. I know him. They're an Australian band from Byron Bay. And Ben is like a major wellness warrior, meditator, super clean. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot. The thing that always surprises people, it's funny because metal and heavy rock can quite often be associated with this like satanic, like what are they doing?

1:45:38Like not so much these days, but people would have always thought, you know, they must be just eating cheeseburgers and drinking whiskey and whatever. But actually the roots of a lot like punk and all that is literally about fuck the system. Yeah. Like that's where it comes from. And that, so whatever the status quo that you're fighting against. But punk has that like straight edge. Yeah, true. It has that also that. And the kind of vegan macrobiotic sort of affiliation that came from bad brains and the like. But heavy metal doesn't really have that same. A lot of metalers though. It's always like, there's a lot of metal bands that are vegan.

1:46:12Like they're all like, I don't know what, I guess it's that, it is a subculture of like questioning the system. And it's surprising. Like even the likes of Derek and, you know, Doyle and all these guys that are absolutely 100 % like vegan and in this heavy metal world. It's confusing to the brain for people. It's funny because it doesn't seem to fit together. You think they're going to, you know, chew the head off a bat or some crazy shit. Just broccoli mostly. I want to ask you about Bob. Who is this guy, Bob, that you're making a movie about? Can you talk about that? A little bit. Oh, Bob's going to be either kill me or love that he got a shout out.

1:46:50Bob is my neighbor and he is now family, basically. I'll say a little bit about it because it's very much in its infancy stage. It's a documentary I'm going to be working on with veterans. And we're just we're shooting some like trailer now and fundraising for it because it's a it's a massive issue that's come across my radar one too many times to ignore where I've had a lot of veterans in my life over the years and crew. And I had two partners over the years that had really chronic PTSD. and I had this situation happen with my neighbor Bob where he had a lot of loss happen almost two years ago now, a year and a half, two years ago.

1:47:30And at the same time, I was going through a lot and I just moved into this small town and we became very close very quickly over a lot of life trauma that happened in a short space of time. And when I saw the lack of resources yet again for a veteran to not only with mental health, but just support in general, I started to wonder if like other than, you know, feeding him, which was really funny because Bob calls me a vegin and he thinks it's witchcraft. He's a 75 year old Vietnam veteran and he's a wonderful character, amazing man. You know, he started to get a bit more curious about the food side of it and how that could maybe help him feel better.

1:48:05Obviously physically is one thing. So I wanted to maybe just get a group of his friends who typically just, it's kind of, I guess, an old fashioned thing. You know, they just eat a certain way or their wives cook for them and bob lost his wife and his son in one day and he also had this trauma from from before he's a vietnam veteran so obviously that comes with its own battles but i wanted to see it was never supposed to escalate to what's happening now if we could just go shopping and like teach some guys who haven't sort of been self-sufficient or healthy before and then well let's start documenting it might be fun you i asked him if we want to and he um he was keen and curious so we just started messing around with this idea of maybe do a documentary and then I started talking to a couple of people in our space about it was like oh okay that could be really fun I thought you know what it's one thing to do a media project and Bob being a catalyst of a story of many many veterans who have the same frustration where there's not a lot of resources for you come back from one war and then you're fighting this whole other war for yourself which is you know I can't none of us can even comprehend that that level of having to deal with all this.

1:49:15We know with the plant-based food movement that a lot of these diseases, they shouldn't be having to battle on top of everything else. So the idea initially is to get a group of veterans and do, you know, sort of a, I don't want to call it a transformation, but like a health transformation per se, to see if we can help with these foodborne diseases. But also in the background, I think it's important to have really, really strong science to back it up. So I want to do a study as well. So we do a larger scale study. So I've been going around, like I was talking to Professor Gardner last week in Stanford.

1:49:49Yeah, I spoke to him last week about, it's just very, very early phases of like, what's the best way to approach this, that it's not just a media project. And it's not about, you know, that kind of Hollywood side of doing a movie about a thing that this is really hopefully going to impact in the long run and have a massive like ripple out effect into the VA system. And because there is actually a lot of incredible food clinics, sort of the infrastructures in place, these lifestyle clinics, but they're not really bubbling yet because there's not enough eyes on it and there's not enough people leaning into that side.

1:50:27So you've got, you've got a lot of people fighting to make this work in this space. But I just have come across this story way too many times at Veterans. And I wanted to, again, figure out, like, how can I use my connections, my platform, and bring together some storytelling, which we know storytelling is very powerful. And when everything happened with Bob, and, you know, he became an inspiration for me too, as well, about, like, talk about being tough. These guys are tough anyway. But so I'm basically in the very, very early phases of putting this into a media project and also hopefully a mass study so that we can walk away with, you know, bulletproof data that will hopefully save the lives of a lot of veterans in controlling these diseases that there's just no need for people to be battling things like diabetes and obesity and hypertension these days.

1:51:18Like when we know we have the solution here, but also with a massive focus on mental health. And with that, I want to lean into the gut health because obviously gut health and brain health are intrinsically tied. So having experts from all these fields come on board to really look into this because obviously we're not saying that if you eat this way, you're going to cure PTSD. That's ridiculous. But you're certainly going to feel better. And that's a step towards healing in a more profound way and bringing in experts in mindfulness, in neurology and everything to try to help this hugely underserved demographic in the US and worldwide.

1:51:56But it's like when you start to look into the numbers here, it's absolutely terrifying. That's quite beautiful. What a worthy investment of your time and your energy. You have this guy, Bob, who can be this protagonist and put a face on a much larger problem, which is the ways, the many ways in which veterans are suffering and falling through the cracks and not getting the resources and the help that they need. and they're just one subset of a larger, more chronic issue or more broader issue around chronic health concerns, mental health and physical health. And the idea that you would tend to care for these veterans in that way, like I think is something everyone wants to see and it's a problem everyone would want to see solved.

1:52:52and it's complicated because how do you help somebody take care of themselves better in a physical way if they have PTSD or these mental health things that are real barriers to self-care and other aspects of your life like you have to untangle all of those knots in order to solve the problems yeah it is a bit of a behemoth and you're like yeah it's sad like it's interesting because I come from a totally un-military, we have a neutral military presence, but I don't have this background in it. But because I just jumped in so heavy into the US and it's so intense here, the whole military presence and everyone's family almost has a veteran in it and you're just seeing it more and more.

1:53:40And you're out in the desert by 29 Palms. There's got to be a lot of veterans. So I was there. Like biker dudes. yeah and it's so interesting because i literally live by the biggest military base in the world in 2029 palms i was in there for the first time the other day because i'm starting to just like put the feelers out and talk to people about who might be interested in being involved because the same frustrations but it's really funny because you know people are set in their ways anyway like get military young military guys as well they're just like super regimented about things but that can be very positive if it's for a healthy you know if they're if they're taking those habits and applying it to a healthy approach.

1:54:13But it's amazing to me to go into somewhere that spends so much money on like precision training and like creating these machines of disciplined men. And then you go to the chow hall and they're being fed absolute shit. Yeah. I mean, that's across the board. I went to the Olympic training center. Hopefully it's different now, but the food that they were serving there, I couldn't believe it. to, you know, the most elite athletes. Yeah, and it's the same in schools. Like this isn't just applied to, you know, you see a lot of the school system, it's cool now you're seeing it roll out in the hospitals in New York that they're changing to default plant-based, but prisons, everything, like this is something I'd love to dive into across a lot of different, it's not just military.

1:54:57Like I hate that it's the same in the prison system. It's awful that, you know, of course we get these recidivism rates because there's just no real education being pumped in or real good food or training. It's a mess. the whole thing's a bit of a mess it's like how can we like try to have a bit of a positive domino effect over here so with the military as well knowing like with bob and all these friends because a lot of crew find in the music industry come from our ex-military they find themselves in the music industry because it's the closest thing to what they're used to deployment you're in motion still right so you get a lot of crew and so i keep seeing this pattern and it was it's just so so sad that when they do reach out for help, like some cases, some states have great clinics and great resources, but a lot, it's just overwhelmed and underfunded.

1:55:47And a lot of the guys will get frustrated that obviously it's beautiful to hear and be told, thank you for your service, most places you go. But the action then after the statement is not happening in a lot of cases and they have enough to be dealing with so if we can use unlikely connections and use storytelling and try to catalyze something positive for for this demographic because when you start like the numbers in the US are crazy with how many it's like in the 70 percentile of families have a veteran in their direct family or one degree of separation and that's you know affecting them and their families and then a lot of the community as well as bikers and stuff which is really great because I love the biker community because it's got this camaraderie about it already and and these guys who you know fought together and were away together deployed there's this intense community and brotherhood so a lot of the the support and infrastructure for a project like this is already there amongst themselves which is is exciting to see and it's just it's just like how can we bring in experts in their field so there's a lot of great doctors lined up for it which I'm excited about and honored that they've said yes.

1:56:59And, you know, the doctors are excited because we haven't really tapped into this space before and professors and specialists in all walks of life to see if we can actually do something that is not just a story, but that after the fact, after the movie or whatever is made, that it continues to ripple out and actually change a system to help these veterans long term. That's so cool. Yeah, I saw Alan Desmond and Jim and Newman in your deck. Yeah, I love them. As doctors. Yeah, and Columbus, Batiste, and we've actually, yeah, a couple of great people are coming on board, Garth Davis. Oh, Garth too, right.

1:57:35Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so you're just raising funds, right? You're like doing a, you're trying to raise a budget for that? In the fun time, the fundraising part of it, which when, you know, I start all these projects, I'm like, oh, I fucking hate this part. Everybody hates fundraising, but it's part of it, you know, and I think it's a worthy cause. So my usual stress is that I get these massive ideas right before I go on tour. so I have to try to get as much work done on the foundations of the project and then go on tour for a few months and then come back and hit it in the pockets when I'm off tour because I have to keep present in the music industry like I would go down a rabbit hole and just work on this all day long and work on anything that's like impact project related but I do have to honor my career in the music industry and stay present enough to have the platform and obviously tour so it's trying to find that balance of being on tour enough to stay you know relevant in my industry and have that platform and obviously I love touring but then as soon as I'm off the road and I'm working on it all the time while I'm on the road as well so but I'm just in that phase now yeah getting the sort of the roots together and the fundraising and all that fun stuff it's cool you're somebody who shows up I think that's a big piece in your success or your trajectory.

1:58:52Like, you know how to show up. Thank you. I think that's the only way we should. You know, as an activist, as a musician, like, you know, to come to America and figure it out and like make your way and like build this thing. I think showing up is a big part of it. You have to. I mean, how else are you going to get anything done, right? It's scary. It's scary at times. And sometimes I question my own decisions to take on behemoth projects like such. But I mean, that's what we're here for, right? It's just trying to pay it forward in some shape or form. Of course, I could just tour and come home and do nothing.

1:59:30But I feel like I would not be happy inside if I wasn't paying it forward in some shape or form and giving back, because that's kind of the whole point of being human, right? I think I want to end this with some thoughts about achieving a dream. Like you came here with a dream, like a lot of people, and you made it happen. you're making it happen like you're manifesting these projects and these ideas into the world so if somebody's listening to this and you know they have a dream but they're confused about how to begin or where to start like what is the what is the message that you share with young people or other people who are like how do I do what you do or their version of what you do following what excites you for sure is is something to check in with yourself on because if everything you're doing if there's no like excitement in or it's not pushing you a bit so I've always kind of think yeah like sit down and think what excites you because there's a lot of buzz around this internet generation now of finding your purpose and you don't always just know that I've known that since I was a little girl I'm lucky that I sort of see my path like that so that's somewhat easier when you already know but just a way to try and figure that out is sort of sitting with yourself and what really excites me what lights me up like when I think about a project that might help all these people it's like that really fucking excites me and that could be even if I fail at it I'll give it a shot you know um and then just like we were saying earlier just the audacity to try and do something that seems ridiculous and outside of comprehension at the time because I never would have guessed that this is what I would end up doing.

2:01:12Not in a million years. What did you think you would be doing? I thought I'd be a marine biologist or a vet. But when I realized that... There's still time. There's still time. I might do that, you know, after this next tour. Or, you know, I want to study philosophy. I love philosophy and all that. So, but that's the thing. It's also like not freaking out about, you can have all these chapters in life. So, and it's absolutely okay to fail. So with music, because it's really difficult in the music industry I get people all the time asking like should I move to LA should I do that it's hard for me to answer that with a straight yes or no because it's really hard and I kind of caught the last wave of the Sunset Strip having the jam nights and that it's kind of gone now and this whole pay to play so I can't say yeah you're going to come out you're going to make it but you should come out and see if you're if you can cut your tea out because it's it's pretty hard industry So there's the just try and then actually speaking of philosophy, it was a Goethe, the German philosopher said, whatever you can do or believe you can do, begin it.

2:02:14Boldness has greatness, magic and power in it. Just begin it. And I love that because it's what's the worst that can happen? I always thought that with like going up to a musician to ask about a jam night or going out to try and fundraise for a project, whatever it is. It's like, I'm just going to try. I'm just going to ask these people to see if they want to be involved or if I can do this. Because if they say no, my ego will take a bit of a hit, but I'll get over it, you know? And no regrets. It's that it's that reflex to action. No regrets, Rich. You know, the classic tattoo. No regrets. Do you have that tattoo?

2:02:48Oh, I've been tempted to get it so many times. I'd love a no regards tattoo. I think that can be arranged. Just talk to Toby. There you go. He'll hook you up. Yeah, yeah. Well, this was great. Thank you. You're an inspiration. I love getting to know you a little bit better. Thank you. You're a powerful presence in the world and the way that you show up in your art and in your advocacy is really laudable. So I appreciate you coming and sharing your path. That means a lot coming from you. Thank you very much for having me. If people want to learn more about you or perhaps they want to maybe throw you a few bucks for the documentary or get involved or what you know if somebody's listening to this who's in that world and wants to connect with you like where where can you send these people yeah i mean i'm really only active on on social media wise i'm on instagram so it's just tanya o 'callaghan underscore official i'm there but first i'll be setting up some stuff over the coming months regarding the project but you can reach me through my website so on my own website which is just my name tanya o 'callaghan.com you can email through there.

2:03:50And yeah, when we really start ramping up on this project, I'll definitely be setting up some type of hopefully fundraiser or internally trying to raise funds through the philanthropic movement. So, and he was interested in helping with veterans. There's definitely a project coming up that needs it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. How many cities are you hitting with Bruce? We, God, we must, we're doing, I think we're doing 40 something shows. So yeah, we got about 40. South America? No, South America first. So we're starting in, yeah, we go down, we start in Mexico and then head through Brazil. And then after that, we go, I think we're doing nine or 10 cities in Brazil.

2:04:28Brazil is huge. I was just there doing another tour and speaking thing. It's so funny. Like no matter how many times you go, it's so big. But yeah, we do South America first. And then we do, we go England, up and down England. And then we go across Europe and we land in Greece. So you are doing all the festivals in Europe over the summer. Yeah. So we're already all these text chains of like musician friends. Are you going to be there on the Friday or the Sunday or the Saturday? We're chasing each other's tails too. Yeah. Right on. We'll have fun. Thank you. And go out and make that movie and then come back and talk to me about it.

2:04:59I would be honored. All right. Thanks, Tanya. Thank you. Peace. Plants.

2:05:10That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

2:05:55Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

2:06:32Portraits by Davey Greenberg Graphic and social media assets Courtesy of Daniel Solis Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting And website management And of course our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt And Harry Mathis Appreciate the love, love the support See you back here soon Peace, plants Namaste

2:07:04Thank you.