Power, Property, & Prestige: Kurt Sutter & Katey Sagal Share The Unfiltered Truth About Marriage, Recovery, Success Addiction & The Path Back To Purpose

26:35I was having gigs at night and it was really not good. So I was trying to manage and control my drinking and using and I couldn't do it. And so when I got to the rooms and I heard other people that couldn't manage, they could do a lot of other things, but they couldn't manage that. I knew I was in the right place. So. And that happened really shortly before the whole married with children thing, right? Like you were like really new in sobriety at that time. I was four months sober when I got that gig. My first television job really was with Mary Tyler Moore. And this all came about from singing gig and then an agent shows up.

27:15And then before you know it, I'm on this TV show and I'm not sober and I'm working. Well, I guess we can break her anonymity now. She talked about it a lot, but yes, it was Mary. And she would talk on the set about being sober and I was like so full of shit. I would just say, oh yeah, me too. But years later - Do you think she was doing that for your benefit? Like hoping you were overhearing that? Maybe because years later, I remember taking her to lunch and thanking her because she kind of was an Eskimo, whether she knew it or not, you know, and she planted a seed and yeah. So, but it took me another year or so to actually get sober after that seed was planted.

28:01But 31 when you got sober? And you, Kurt, you were 31? I was 31 as well. I was 31 too. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, magic year. Yeah. Huh, interesting. So we're all, well, that's really interesting because we're like our age difference is the difference in sobriety. Right. Do you know what I mean? I'm older. I'm six years older than you. My wife's older than me too. Really? How many years? Probably six years older than you. She's four years older than me. See, smart guys. You guys are smart. Yeah. Older, smart, powerful, strong women. Absolutely. That's my thing. That's good. That's a good thing.

28:41I don't want to overstate it, but I think of you as sort of like you're this iconic sort of doyenne of LAA. Like you sponsor like a lot of people. Like you're just you're very kind of like well known for your service and for being incredibly active. I know you've helped like countless, countless women. And very anonymously. I mean, it's interesting you say that. I was just asked to be on a podcast that's about sobriety. And I just said, I had to say no. I had to say, you know, because I talk about it in a general way and I'll use, you know, but I find it so, not that I don't want to be of service in a big way.

29:24I just don't feel like I want to advertise it. Do you know what I mean? And I have, you know, I remember I've started meetings in L.A. before. I think it's that's kind of the deal. I just keep it very it's kind of a sacred thing to me. You know, it saved my life and it really gave me my life on all those things I don't say lightly. So it's lovely to hear that. But I sponsor people because it really helps me. You know, I mean, it's kind of the selfish way of being self-centered. Paradox. And, you know, so, but that's lovely to hear that. I am sort of, I've been, well, I'm from here, so I'm here.

30:08Yeah. This has been my sober, and I'll see people in the rooms that I used to get loaded with all the time. They'll finally come in. It is a bit of a conundrum, and I'm curious whether you've kind of butted up against this now being podcast host. like when I wrote my book and then when I started this podcast, how do I speak about recovery without violating the tradition? And technically every time I do, I'm violating the tradition. And so it's like, and my sort of definition or my relationship to that tradition of like not advertising in print radio is like, I'm trying to create an awareness and a sense of possibility in people because I just know, like I didn't know anything about it.

30:49And had I known a little bit about it or had like a sort of parasocial connection with somebody who was sober, maybe I would have come in early. And, you know, what is the cost benefit of like talking about it? And everybody has a different kind of, you know, boundary with that. But it sounds like you have a more traditional one. A little bit. But now you're like doing this podcast host and we're talking about recovery. I think it's semantics. You know, I don't, I'm a big believer in the tradition of not saying where my recovery is grounded in, you know, and that is basically because it was taught to me really early on that if I, if I advertise, not advertise, if I talk too much about where we actually do all this and say, all of a sudden I'm out, you know, I'm loaded again.

31:40And that gives that bad name. To use the word recovery, I believe, is fine. To use the word sobriety is fine. But I also think for me, anyhow, the dividing line is discussing it in terms of experience, meaning there is not an agenda. There is not this is the way to do it. There is not good. It's this happened to me and this is what I did to get better. Right. Which is the foundation of of of for us of recovery. But it's also a way for me to keep it organic. And if if asked, I'm honest. And, you know, I found over the years that my probably biggest service that I've done is for my own protection is letting people that, whether usually like work circumstances, letting them know about my recovery keeps me protected because that's one, two, five, six, eight people.

32:49that I'm not going to feel comfortable using in front of. And it also, I say, this is what I'm doing. And it's, I never ask what they're doing. And I pretty much on every project I've worked on, there's been at least one person, usually more, who has either questioned me, who I've helped get sober, who I've, you know, steered in the right direction. And I see that as a form of service that I don't consider a breach of anonymity as much as it is, I do it to save my own ass to a certain degree. It's also the concept of attraction rather than promotion. I mean, I really, I feel like, you know, doing this in all my affairs, which is basically how I have to live my life, which is by spiritual principle.

33:38You know, you bring that into the world and it's amazing how attractive that is to certain people that are like, you know, I'll be on a job sometimes. And I've just learned to extend myself, you know, to be a part of rather than separate from. And many people have asked me like, what, you know, and all of a sudden the conversation will be about, well, this is just how I've learned how to live my life. And it's not in some big grandiose way. It's just, you know, it's just how we do it. You know, it's how I have to do it because I need to stay connected to that kind of behavior because I could be the other way.

34:21So, yeah, no, trust me. I've been the other way. Yeah, I get it.

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39:37For somebody who's listening to this or watching this, you know, who's sort of flirting with the idea of, you know, maybe I have a problem or, you know, like I really should kind of like not do what I'm doing, but has fear around, you know, what AA is or what recovery looks like. I mean, what is the message that you would like to convey to that person? Well, first of all, people that don't have a problem don't ask that question. They don't say to themselves, do I think maybe I have a problem? Most people that ask that question have a problem. And what I would say is that it's a very isolating disease.

40:18And so if you are alone in that, the very first thing you need to know is that you're not alone in that. And that I know my experience of first going to group recovery meetings was the light bulbs going off of like, oh, I'm not the only person that can't seem to manage a life without being medicated in some way. And there was huge relief in that. So what I guess I would say to somebody is community is the opposite of addiction. So if you are feeling that way, reach out to some kind of community. You can walk into a room like that and not even say anything. You can just sit there. Nobody's going to force you to do anything.

41:06That's one of the beautiful things about it, too, because we're all so isolated people. Yeah, we're sitting in our pool of shame. We are. We are convinced that nobody could possibly understand just how unique our pain is. But it's very, you know, to walk into a room of like-minded people in any circumstance. But that's what I would say to somebody that thinks they have an issue is maybe call your local central office. There are a million of them and find out where you might want to go or Zoom. I mean, the Zoom meetings are amazing. It's funny. I knew I wouldn't make my one o 'clock meeting today.

41:44And I'm not just saying this because I was listening to speaker tapes on the way here. I didn't know how long it was going to take to get here. And it's a woman and I've heard her before and she always makes me laugh. And what I was struck by was, oh, yeah, I forget like how how much fun and there is in that sense of relief. Right. In that letting go of like there's just this like and it, you know, and I think it's disconcerting sometimes for people who are new because like it's nothing's funny, man. this isn't funny. And so, you know, some of the attraction for me is that this fear that, oh my God, my life's over.

42:34I'm never going to have fun again. And that we, for me, I probably didn't have an honest, truly an honest, sober moment of happiness or joy or sincere laughter until after I got sober, right? And where I was able to honestly take a look at myself and have some self-deprecating humor that wasn't about control or shame and things like that. And it's so dark when people are laughing, but you just, and I just forgot like, oh shit, yeah. That's what, that's part of the deal, man. That's what we get to open up to. It's interesting how people, I think people also get a little freaked out when they hear that people with 38 years of sobriety still go to meetings.

43:23This is the next thing. Yeah. Like you still do that? Like why is it like, are you, do you think you're going to, you know, speak to that? What I've learned is that alcoholism, drug addiction is, is, is in my brain, is in my thinking process. It's my lack of perception. It's my, it's my way of looking at the world that I don't know, chicken or egg. I don't know what came first. I don't know if I was born this way or from, you know, years of childhood, uh-oh-ness. I just grew up fear-based. And so the fact that I don't drink and use substances doesn't mean that my thinking process doesn't still need treatment, you know, because it's the way I look at the world, that if I'm not living present and by somewhat of spiritual principle, which means doing unto others as simple stuff.

44:16If I'm not reminded of that, I will very quickly go off the beam and think like everything's turning to shit. And the next thought after that is like, what's the use? And then the next thought is I might as well get loaded. That's down the road. I'm not afraid of that every morning when I wake up, but it's the uncomfortability of living that way, of thinking that way, you know, where is if we stay present mind, you know, right here, right now, everything's fine, but I forget it. Like I'll remember that right now. I'll leave this room and I'll forget it. That's why I still go to meetings. That's why people still go to meetings.

44:56And when I say living by spiritual principle, people get a little like, you know, cause there's a lot of God talk around what we do. It's a spiritual principle of your own understanding. It's whatever, it's whatever, you know, the universe is clearly bigger than we are. It's just, all you have to know is you're not it. Something greater than you. Yeah, the group who has figured out a way to stay sober longer than you can be your higher power. Anything, it is a power greater than you. Absolutely, yeah. But people do get really caught up in that. And I think beyond that, it's the community piece.

45:31It's the connectivity piece, like connection being the opposite of addiction and the service piece. Like at some point it's like, what can I contribute to this? How can I give it back? Because that's what nourishes me and gives my life meaning. It's kind of like, remember when you first had kids? I don't know for you, but for me, I was so relieved that I could think about something other than me being a self-centered actor who's also an alcoholic. I mean, it was just so much about me. So, you know, the gift of sobriety was suddenly, it wasn't all about me. And the gift of having children was also like, oh, I get to think about them.

46:05I don't have to worry about me so much. And there's something so freeing about that, you know, and so not, you know, it's so boring to think about yourself all the time. Right? I mean, really. Yeah. It is an obsession of the mind. Oh my God. Yeah. We get so tired of ourselves. I have a feeling Kirk gets caught up in his own mind about himself here and there. Oh, occasionally. You guys met in recovery, I presume, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, we actually met in the sister program in Al-Anon. We met in Al-Anon because at the time we met, I was going through a divorce with my second husband who, God love him, just passed.

46:51He had struggles. He couldn't maintain his sobriety. And there came a point in that marriage where I had my two little kids and we had to go our own ways. So I didn't do anything about that marriage until somebody said, you should go to Al-Anon. So I went to Al-Anon and learned how to live with that, sort of, and realized I didn't really want to live with that. And so I was going to Al-Anon and he was there for a totally different... No, I had a marriage. I was married briefly for about a year And that marriage ended and went to Al-Anon. And then I realized that that's where all the really attractive women were.

47:37So that became my primary program for about two years. All of whom have needs that need to be met. And I've started that program again because I, you know, it was it's a great it's great tools. It's the handbook. Right. But I found the meeting. It's online. It's a hybrid meeting. And the meeting that we met at. It's still going. Wow. Yeah. 24 years ago. 24 years ago. Wow. And it's still going on. So wait, when did you guys first start dating? 2001. 2001. Yeah. Got married in 2004. That's when Julie, that's right. I mean, mid-2000 was when I started dating Julie. And I was coming off a short previous marriage as well.

48:27That's right. That's right. I forgot about that. Mine only, mine didn't make it past the honeymoon, but you know. Yeah. Oh, that's right. His kind of didn't really, he was just acting as if. Yeah. And she, and she's a lovely woman. She is also passed recently, but she was a lovely woman and we were just, both of us were like, what? That's so funny. Um, she, I saw her at that meeting and I obviously, I knew who she was and, and, you know, there was a little bit of, Hey, and, but I wouldn't ask her out because I didn't have a job. And, uh, and then I got a job. I got my first writing gig and, and then I didn't see her.

49:08She, uh, for like six months, right? Seven months. Taking the kids to soccer. She had soccer on Saturday morning, so I didn't see her. And then she showed up one Saturday and I was like, if you don't, if you don't do it now, man. and I asked her to coffee, right? Yeah, and then I brought my sponsor on our first date because I had such a bad picker. I mean, I really had a history of not great choices. Like bad boys, spider, spider types? Yeah, kind of pretty much. Or really like, yeah, broken, just kind of broken. I mean, not that Kurt was completely not broken, but so I brought my sponsor to our first coffee date.

49:47And I remember in the middle of the coffee date, hardcore, hardcore Al-Anon, she reaches over to me. She goes, he's OK. And she left. How did you handle the fact that she brought her sponsor to your first date? I knew her sponsor from that meeting and I thought she was great and I totally got it. I was kind of glad she was there because, you know, I wanted to make sure that this all made sense, too. So the fact that, you know, she got the OK, I was like, all right, I guess this is OK. It was such an interesting date. It wasn't like a coffee date because with a sober person, like I'll never forget, he opened up about himself in so many intimate ways, like right away.

50:26Like, this is who I am. This is where I've been, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, wow, that's, I mean, I was glad to get all the information. But, you know, I've since like sponsored girls that go on dates. And my main thing to them is like, don't say everything right away. Like, just, you know. What's great about it is that, you know, Kurt presents in a very specific way. So you get the bad boy exterior. You know, you have the sweetness on the inside. And, you know, there's some rough stuff in there, too. But, you know, he's fundamentally like a genteel person, right? Completely. But he looks like a spider.

51:01Oh, he absolutely does. Which is the perfect combo for me. I like rough around the edges, but a sweetheart inside. He's all that. Tell me more about why you felt like you couldn't ask her out until you had a job. You know, I was a struggling artist for so long. I started out as an actor and I moved out to L.A. and then that didn't happen. And then I went back to New York to study with my mentor, became a Meisner teacher and a theater director. And then I went back and got my MFA. Like I had this very circuitous path and I was in LA and I had been focusing on writing and I really had a sense that that's what I was supposed to do.

51:46And I had, you know, I had enough sobriety under my belt and I felt like I'm on the right path. And even though I was starving and didn't have a dime to my name, I, you know, I just felt like I was doing the right thing. and uh but my whole thing was i just want to tell people what i do in one sentence that was all i wanted to say i'm this right so when i got the my first gig was on the shield as a staff writer and um and i got the gig and i started getting paid it for me it wasn't about the money as much as the fact that yeah it was great to be able to pay rent but it was oh fuck I can tell people that I'm a writer now.

52:31Yeah. And not a writer in the aspirational sense of like, I'm the guy at Starbucks with my laptop. Exactly. I just, I couldn't have that conversation. I would just tell people I'm a fucking plumber. I just couldn't have that conversation with people anymore. So I was able to say, you know, when she said, what do you do? I could say, I'm a writer. And, you know, and like followed up with an actual job description. Right. And it wasn't like I felt like she, it was me, right? It was my stuff that wouldn't allow me to engage somebody who I thought was a significant human being and it had nothing to do with notoriety or it was just like I knew she was a mom, I knew she had kids, I knew she was an adult, you know, and I just knew that I had to show up and at least have a sense of self-worth and esteem that would allow me to engage honestly.

53:26wing. Yeah. You could stand on your own two feet and look her in the eye and feel, yeah, like I, you know, I totally get that, but it is, it is funny. Cause you're like a plumber. I mean, I think it was probably something like 2003 or four when I first met you or you, you started showing up at, at, at Sasha's and you said you lived across the street, but I was like, who is this guy? Like, is he like a carpenter? Like, you know, like a semi-homeless guy or whatever. Like I think maybe like your first or second year on The Shield. I had no idea you were a writer. Right, right. For a long time. Right.

54:01Yeah. Because we don't talk about that in the rooms, which is the other great thing about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, most people, to this day, like I pull up, the Uber driver pulled me up to our house and he'll look at me and go, you live here? You know? That has to be like, that never gets tiring though, I'm sure, right? Right. Now I wait for it. Now I'm like, go ahead, ask me. I think you look like a very Hollywood dude. Yeah. Right. Or they'll just assume I'm in music. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the next, you know, because I guess that's the, you know. That's the hair and the tats.

54:45That's the cover photo of it all. Well, the other ripple in your relationship, you know, not only are you both in recovery. I mean, that's one thing I don't have. My wife has no problem with, you know, addiction issues at all. So I don't share that with you guys. But you guys also like collaborate and work together. And so it's very, you know, integrated or enmeshed. And so how do you keep that like healthy with healthy boundaries and, you know, make sure that, you know, the relationship doesn't kind of descend into something transactional? Well, we actually, the only project we seriously worked together on was sons and we learned a lot.

55:27I mean, there was some bumpy, bumpy bumps. I mean, I had to learn for me, um, the boundary of he's my boss. And so I don't have, you know, our marriage is very much about open communication, you know, sort of like, you know, we, we, we speak on things that might not be that comfortable or whatever. But as a boss, you know, I would open my mouth too much and just say like, well, why am I doing, you know, I'd come home and want to talk about the acting. We both loved doing it. And I'd want to say, well, why did you write this? Or why did you, you know, just like really inappropriate stuff. As an actor, my job is to interpret what I'm given.

56:07That's my job. And it's not to tell the person that's given me what to interpret, like, that they should change it or do something. You know, that's not my job. We had to get a little help. We had to get some help with it. Yeah. Boundaries. And then we ultimately kind of didn't talk about it when we came home. That's what we tried. Thank God we had three kids. Yeah. So we could shift focus. But I think overall we did really well. We did. I think. And we were excited. We were both excited. We really wanted to work together and it was a perfect project and it was really cool. And then at one point it was, there was some comment about that suggested that you weren't in the episode enough.

56:47Oh, is that what I said? And I was like, what? And then after that, we're like, we should get some rules. Yeah. And we did. We had a mutual therapist and we chatted about it. But, you know, here's the deal. We also know that we both love what we do and we talk about it not because we have to. We talk about it because experientially it's very fulfilling for us. You know, we learned that, oh, it's okay to talk about the experience in a what I'm getting out of it kind of way. And we, you know, we sort of figured it out how to, you know, get it on track, I think. It was kind of funnier sometimes to watch the other actors responding to the fact that, like, Kurt would write me a sex scene.

57:40And they couldn't quite understand, like, how to, you know. But we were very able to separate personal from business. I mean, we're actors and writers. So we like, you know, it's not some voyeuristic weird thing, which is, I think, some, like Kurt would tell this story about Jimmy. Jimmy Smits was so, like, who's the sweetest human being? Sweetest. And very, super respectful. And he was a love interest of mine on the show. And I wouldn't, it's not like I would show up on set for the sex scenes, but it would be like, you know, I'd be on set and Jimmy would just get wholly uncomfortable. So I realized, okay, that's not.

58:20And we weren't. Yeah. And we were, you know what I mean? We were fine. You were, you were okay. We were just doing work. You know. But you need him to show up authentically, right? So you had to skedaddle. Yeah. Yeah. I just gave him space. So he'd go away. So he would, you know, cause I didn't, you know, and I, and look, I, I get it. And we, at that point, we'd been doing it long enough where it was, you know, you might have, it didn't matter, you know, it didn't matter what you were doing, you know. Well, I think when you come from the craft point, like you were studying to be a teacher and studying to be an actor.

58:49So he understands that all that stuff is very mechanical and choreographed, you know, it's not what it ends up being and, you know, what people are responding to. How do the tools of recovery come into play in like navigating conflict in your relationship and then also like in parenting? I can speak to that. I can say that, you know, the traditions that we live by are what's best for the whole. Right. So I always look at our marriage as there's him, there's me, and then there's the marriage. So and the family. And so decisions are based basically on what's best for the whole. which that's where I think the tools of recovery actually work really well.

59:33You know, we both want our way. You know, we're humans. We all want our way. But then ultimately, if there's a conflict with that, I know for me, my thought process goes to what's best for everybody. You know, it's like, okay. You know, a simple example would be, you know, are we going out to dinner or are we having dinner at home? I wanna go out to dinner. I wanna have dinner at home. Well, you know what? The kids haven't been over for a while and blah, blah, you know, whatever. So let's all have dinner at home, whatever it is. So I think that's where recovery tools kind of come in. Also, this is one of the things I love about my marriage.

1:00:15I mean, I love a lot of things about my marriage, but there's a lot of accountability for bad behavior that happens pretty quickly. Like, you know, if he's being an asshole, he'll tell me that like within five minutes. and, or, you know, there's a lot of accountability for each one of our own parts. You know, if I'm being really selfish about what it is that I want and I recognize it, I'm able to say to him, hey, I'm being, I'm not being okay. I'm really sorry I did that. But the big piece is being able to hear that and not be reactive, right? Like how can you receive that kind of feedback and like process it and not like escalate some kind of conflict?

1:00:54Well, usually with us, I find, And, well, I find with him, I don't have to say to him, hey, you're being like, why are you being so non-communicative? Or why are you shutting me out? Or why are you, you know, he notices it. I don't even almost have to say it. You know, or if I do have to say it, he takes it. He receives it. You know, the thing about being an examined person is that you have to have a certain understanding of your faults, your weaknesses, your strength, you know. So when somebody says to you, and you know you're a reclusive person, somebody says to you, hey, man, you've disappeared.

1:01:36Where are you? Hello. If you have any self-awareness, you know that that's your tendency. And you're then able to say, hey, you know what? I think you're right. I have been doing that. We don't rectify it right away. It just means like, you know, maybe we're going to hang out and watch a movie together instead of just going off in our separate worlds. Does that make sense? Yeah, I get it. I get it. I think marrying that to this idea that self-awareness is huge, but also self-awareness will avail you nothing, right? That's true. Unless you actually marry it to some kind of contrary action. I think that's where our individual recovery comes into play, too, because we both do the work we need to do to move ahead spiritually.

1:02:20And we've had some crunchy times, man, really crunchy times. And I talk about it sometimes from the podium, which is money, property, and prestige became my higher power. And I always say that money, property, and prestige is fantastic. Like it's fantastic to have a big life, but if your sense of spirituality or God, whatever you want to call it, if it doesn't proportionally get as big, you lose your way. And that happened to me. And I was in a dark hallway for a good five or six years. And knowing the whole time that the only way back was the way we know how to get back. And it wasn't until I kind of crashed and burned, you know, on professionally, emotionally, psychologically, you know, relationship wise that I was willing to sort of go, I'm at sea.

1:03:23And I wouldn't let go. And she wouldn't let go. Yeah. I was like, you know, I'm not a quitter. But she also had enough of her own recovery to go, this is his problem, not mine. This is that motherfucker's stuff, not me. And I'm grateful that most women would not have stuck around. Yeah. And to suddenly then be willing to, you know, work a program like I worked when I walked in the door, you know. And, you know, our mutual friend of ours, Jeff, you know, was the guy that was my confidant, even when I was in the dark hallway. I was smart enough to bring in one sober brother that knew everything.

1:04:08And he would always say, hey, maybe we should do some work around that. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. And not do it. And then when I became willing, he was there and said, yeah, let's do it. and became willing to do that work five years ago now. And, you know, in all, you know, and look, I'm everything. The thing that brought me to that place is still very much on the table. But now I have a new perspective. And to bring it back to your point, I lost sight of the greater, you know, the greater good. because I was so self-absorbed. And now being able to actually be present in the pandemic, I know it was brutal, but it was probably the biggest spiritual opportunity for me in that it cleared everything off the table, everything.

1:05:11And it was just me and my primary relationships. You know, I was I became willing to do the work and and and find it again. And and so grateful. And I'm in love with you like I've never been in love with you. Wow. 112 years of marriage. You know, I know it's been a fucking long time. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like what you were talking about. I listened to your episode with Esther Perel. She's talking about how you you can remarry the same person. Do you know what I mean? I mean, like you, you know, there's people that, I mean, I've had three marriages with three different people, but you can also have three marriages within your one marriage.

1:05:52You know, it kind of, you just have to keep, the whole thing has to grow. It's an evolution. It is. It requires constant investment. And yeah, you go through different stages with it, but that recommittal process. I mean, I'm sort of in sort of an analogous, you know, kind of journey with this myself and just to kind of take what you shared out of abstraction into, you know, kind of something that, you know, maybe the audience can understand. I mean, basically - Please do. Yeah, right. I hope we're making sense. Allow me to project onto you. Make sense of what I'm saying. No, I mean, I know you and I get it, but, you know, tell me if this is like, if this tracks, I mean, essentially you're this aspiring writer and then you get this staff writing job and you parlay that into a showrunner gig where you create this show, Sons of Anarchy, and it just explodes.

1:06:45Like it's a phenomenon. Like it is just larger than life. Like the fan base for that show is insane. Like I texted Kurt, I was on the East Coast and I was at the train station at like Penn Station in New York City waiting to board this train to go down to DC. and there was a business woman, very like, you know, look, you know, like accountant type like woman and she was holding her iPad and she's watching Son of Anarchy in the like big hall, you know, like standing up holding it, you know, like, and I was like, dude, you know, and I mean, a huge women fan base for the show too, which is sort of interesting and that's a whole other discussion.

1:07:21But anyway, the point being, this is a phenomenon and not to say that it went to your head, but like this idea of power, property, and prestige, it is an intoxicant, right? And now you're off to the races and what are you gonna do next? And this is your moment and how am I gonna build upon this? And so that's when the self-obsession kind of enters and you lose sight of A, how you got to that place, like all the tools that created the individual who was capable of like manifesting and executing on all of this. And the casualties being all the people that you care about the most who are knocking on the door saying, Hey, Kurt, like member us or like, where are you?

1:08:04And you're like, I'll get to it. You know, I'm too busy. And then, you know, and that will play out until you reach a certain point where the pain is sufficient enough to course correct on some level. And I would say that, you know, in my case, like, I mean, this thing is, you know, I never thought I would be a successful person, you know, be able to rub a couple pennies together. And I was coming out of financial wreckage and acting out of like urgency and PTSD. And that translated into workaholism. And then it's just like, you gotta keep it going, you know? And kids get older and they're gone.

1:08:40And then suddenly you're looking across at your wife and you're like, wait, who are you? And she's like, I've been here, I'm waiting for you. And we're in that process of like, how do we reconnect and how do we remarry each other and enter this new stage? And as somebody who also, you know, prefers to be reclusive and is intimacy avoidant, you know, like it's like scary, right? Like, well, if she knows who I am, like, this isn't going to work, you know? I think we've just parlayed into our podcast. We'll just make one for the whole thing. But anyway, I guess what I'm saying is like, I can, you know, it's like the facts of your experience are different, but I can relate to the emotional journey that you've been on.

1:09:21And so, you know, what was the kind of moment where you realize like, hey, I've put all the things I care about most at risk for these things that society, culture at large is like rewarding me for. And when do you figure out that that is like an empty promise in comparison to the things that really matter? I think for me, the moment was, you know, I knew I was in the hallway and I knew there was not an attractive or half solution out of the problem. And what happened at Fox then slash Disney, you know, I, you know, I, I set all those fires. I watched them burn. I warmed my hands by them. And I, you know, in hindsight, it was inevitable.

1:10:17And basically started. Yeah. So people understand. You parlay Sons of Anarchy into this other show, Mayans, right? And you co-create this with Elgin James. And I don't know the details of what happened, but basically you imploded that thing. And John Landgraf, who was always your champion at FX and like kind of this compadre who had shepherded your career, was like no moss and kind of kicks you to the curb. Yeah. I mean, I had already made the decision to hand the show off to Elgin for the third season because I wanted to do other things outside of the motorcycle genre. but my intention was not to completely unplug and so I got called in to John and Dana Walden who is now the president of the television called me in and I'm so naive I'm so arrogant that I thought I was being called in for a season 3 pickup and I walk in and there's, and I notice these like dudes in suits in the hallway and I'm like, they don't look like executives.

1:11:28And I got into the room and I just felt the tone. I was like, oh fuck, I'm peshy and wise guys right now. I'm going to get whacked. And I did. And, and I will say this, John, who, you know, we, our careers sort of came up, We came up on the same trajectory and we both, I believe, were, you know, had the similar struggles and we both, he was a mentor and the show helped put him on a trajectory. And I would say that John and I are probably better friends now than we've ever been. And when I had some clarity about everything, I was able to go to lunch and essentially thank him. Like recently, right?

1:12:12Yeah. Yeah. Because that was the bottom. It had to hit me at that level that got my attention. Because my lack of connection to my family, right, my distance from my wife and my kids, none of that was getting my attention. What got my attention was, you know, we don't need you anymore. and that was the thing that brought me to my knees where I could suddenly be vulnerable enough and aware enough to look around and go, oh shit. Well, I'd like to just chime in too because we were still there. At a certain point while this all was going on before the Mayans thing, he also had tried to leave the marriage.

1:12:55He was not sure he wanted to be in the marriage anymore. So there was that personal piece to it And so it was kind of a sequence of events that then that was the ultimate like, okay, because the marriage was then kind of working its way back up. And then that whole Mayan situation happened. And I think that the fact that, you know, we were all still there. We didn't go anywhere, you know. And when you have a partner and you know them well and you can see what's going on and it's really hard not to take it personal, but you just know that at their core, that's not who that person is. Like even when he was like screwing up on them, it wasn't the Mayans that he was screwing up.

1:13:43He just didn't really want to go that much. It's really all it was. He was done with money. But I just know that from my perspective, I could see him just trying to rip everything up, trying to rip everything up. And what's interesting is that I had moved out for a little bit and but came back and like ultimately. For what, you know, I didn't know why I couldn't leave. Right. And I told you know, it was like we as May was very young and I was like, well, I have to stay for the kid. And that's part of that is true. But the bigger piece of it is that I knew that that was a decision I needed to make, that I needed to do the work.

1:14:29So I truly understood what it is I was feeling to make that decision, not make it out of fear or self-obsession. That's the awareness I had and began to do the work thinking, all right, this will give me this. The answer, a clear answer. I'll get a clear answer. What I realized is the reason I never left or couldn't truly leave is because I wasn't supposed to. Do you know what I mean? And to be able to come back. I don't know if you have this experience, but we have the same fight over and over again. Sure. It's the same fucking argument we have. And it'll depending on, you know, but it's never.

1:15:10We're never like detrimentally arguing. We're not like, you know. You know, it's so interesting to me what we, you know, when we have a partner and what it is that we're supposed to learn, right? So I know what I'm supposed to learn is I have a huge abandonment wound that when we went through all this shit, right? It's just the mirror, you know. Are we talking about your life now? Can you take what I just said and make it more clear for the listener? So when we went through all this transition, I had to really, I really got an opportunity. that's what I'll look at it now, as much as it sucked, to look at all that and to sort of heal some of that to the place where, because I think ultimately in a relationship, you have to know you're gonna be okay no matter what.

1:15:57You're gonna be okay whether you're with this marriage or not. And I had such a big, you know, my parents dying young, people, I've lost too many people, you know, just all that shit. Yeah, here we go again. Yeah, here we go again. And it was a great opportunity as my marriage was somewhat threatened. We went through that period of like, do we or don't we or blah, blah. And man, it was painful. But I got to the other side of it to where when it finally did come to where it was supposed to be, like you said, which was that we're supposed to be together. I really felt like, oh, my God, this was invaluable.

1:16:35I learned so much about self-love, self-care. I'm okay no matter what. I'm not that ugly little fat girl that my dad used to berate. You know, all the shit. I just kind of believe that things don't happen randomly. I think that that is like exactly what I was supposed to learn. Like you're the nugget, the lesson, the beauty for you is having to confront those issues and reach for a deeper sort of surrender and detach from whatever unhealthy kind of relationship you had with just being in a relationship period, right? Like, hey, like I'm confronting this, I have to overcome this fear and get to the place where I know I'm gonna be okay either way, which then of course lands you in this place where you're a healthier person to be in that relationship and you're doing a different version of the same thing, Kurt, at the same time.

1:17:33Like it's an incredible thing. We tried to get away from each other. It just wasn't. Yeah. And it's also, you know, and I know you'll appreciate this and connect your own dots to it, but there's that sense of I can't live any other way, right? I can't avoid my truth because I know I'll die, either physically, emotionally, spiritually, artistically. I have to seek my truth. And some people will not, do not want to do that work. And I get it. And to figure it out, they'll just get out. And then however long it takes, they're back in the same rhythm, in the same pattern. And I intuitively knew that if I didn't do this work, that I would be in, I would find myself in a similar situation, worse down the line, whether it was K or somebody like I just knew it was going to fucking keep happening if I didn't seek what was happening and seek my own truth and, and, and truly have a sense of what the fuck was going on that it wasn't going to get any better, you know?

1:18:47And what I talk about now a lot is the idea that, you know, I'm 64 years old, right? So when I can look at it as, holy shit, I'm this old and I still have to do this kind of work, or I can reframe it and go, holy shit, I'm 64 and I'm still willing to fucking roll up my sleeves and do the work I need to work. And I always say this, I use him as an example, but Norman Lear at 85 went back and like figured out his daddy shit. And went back into therapy. And that had such a huge impact on me. And I don't, I remember like maybe two things from the documentary. What stuck with me was like, here was a guy that was seeking and willing to do that.

1:19:39And so now I try to look at that kind of stuff, not from like, oh, I can't believe I'm still working on this shit, to holy shit, I'm still willing to work on this stuff. And to grow. And to grow.

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1:22:30The universe put you two together for your own individual growth and evolution, right? And when you can kind of engage in your relationship from that perspective, rather than this person is holding me back or is my enemy, but actually is my teacher, is the mirror that I need right now to reflect back all the things that I actually need to work on and then embrace that as opposed to run away from that. And that's the great hindsight you take away from it. Not that it's not messy in the middle. I mean, you know, we're making it sound like it was all very altruistic and we all got to this great place and it was fantastic.

1:23:05I cannot tell you how dark some nights got. You know what I mean? Where you're just like, holy shit. I'm, you know, I'm a human that cannot hold this amount of whatever this is. I think the other thing or piece that I wanted to kind of underscore is you engaged in this dynamic with all of these tools that you've learned over decades of commitment to your recovery. but the sort of particular acute crisis that you faced, Kurt, is not unique to somebody who suffers from alcoholism. It's a predicament of being in a human body. And I think it's particularly acute for men, right? Like we're raised in a culture in which our value is measured in accordance with like our job and like, you know, our salary and, you know, the trappings of the material world.

1:23:56And you incorporate that over the course of a lifetime. And then you're in a a position where you're kind of enjoying the fruits of that. It's not unusual for that to take up a disproportionate, kind of weight in terms of like your ego. And some people can sort of drink too much, but be able to do it their whole life. So they never have to look in the mirror and many people have success in the material world and it's not quite problematic. So again, it's sort of like the gift of bottoming out on drugs and alcohol that you are this extreme person. And so you can take that all the way to the edge and have that bottoming out experience so that you can then, you know, okay, here's the next level of growth that's awaiting for me.

1:24:38Don't you think too, I mean, you're the physical dude, don't you think hormonally there is some kind of change that happens in men for sure, well, women for sure, but also in men that sort of decrease in testosterone or whatever it is that happens at a certain age that suddenly what was enough isn't enough or there's kind of like a desperation. I'm going to say the word midlife crisis, but I hate to say that word because I remember when Kurt was going through some stuff, he hated if I would say. Well, that's what maybe. But I think that's hormonal, too. Don't you think? I don't know. I don't know if it's hormonal.

1:25:22I mean, yes. Does that impact mood and all that stuff? And but I but I think it goes back. I mean, to look, to bring it back to what we began the conversation about is that like money, property, prestige, all that stuff is great. But it's it's it's air. Right. It doesn't have substance and it doesn't hold esteem. Right. The esteem is like and it's gone like the headline and then it's gone. And where's the next? And, you know, and I experienced this coming into another project is that if that's not the fire anymore, if, you know, well, money was never the fire, but respect, prestige, like that was very important.

1:26:08Like I wanted, you know, artistically, I wanted to be recognized. But when that no longer holds the weight and it's not the fire underneath you, what is? And that's when you just go, oh, fuck. You're lost at sea. That's when you go, what I have to look at is, to your point, is taking a look at how I got here, right? And go, oh, the way I have to shift it now is it has to be about love and service, right? Like I am doing this now for love and service because I found that that is the only esteem that lasts. Right. That is the only esteem. And as every human being, but I don't mean this to sound the way it is, but I think to your point, there's a certain amount that men, there's an expectation that, you know, we, you know, that esteem is very important.

1:27:10Right. and it is the ultimate dopamine hit. Yeah, esteem meaning like the validation of others. Yes, yeah. And I think - Or a job well done. Right, of course. Like we wanna feel like we're providing value in the world, but we want that recognition for that, right? Like so much of our value is tied up in like how we're perceived like in this culture. And I think to your credit, Kurt, like being able to recognize that in yourself. I mean, you know, you had these incidents that like really brought it up for you, but to step out, you know, outside of that, like, you know, have a trail and assess. Like most people, it's like, if you tell, like they did these studies with, you know, billionaires and millionaires, like what's your number when you're gonna retire?

1:27:53Oh, it's 10 million if I get that, right. You know, then they get it and they're like, well, you know, now it needs to be 50, you know, like it never ends, right? Like this is the thing. It's just, there's always another bend, you know, around the way and we delude ourselves into thinking like, Like, well, it'll happen when I get around that next bend. And it's like pursuing it to the gates of hell and death, right? But to be able to go, hold on, like, no. Well, enough's enough at a certain point. It's like, what is enough? And I didn't want to be like, I just remember hearing an interview early on when I was a staff writer.

1:28:28And I don't honestly forget who the writer was, but it was a well-established writer. And he was so fucking miserable. And I thought, why is this guy like, how could he be unhappy? And as I closed in on that sense of like, well, that doesn't mean anything anymore. I understood like, oh, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be the guy who has to go to work. And it just becomes like laborious. Like if I'm truly, you know, driven artistically to do what I do, I have to find that fire. And if it's not the attaboys and the paycheck, what is it? And it has to be about, well, here's an opportunity for me to be of service.

1:29:15What I do is of service. And how can I engage people and give them a sense of ownership of what they do and really look at things through a completely different lens that, yes, it's my vision. but that if I don't open my eyes to how it impacts everybody else, there's no path, right? We're in entertainment. That's a service job. Entertainment is a service job because we're providing emotional, whatever, humor, whatever it is for people. That's what we do. I don't think that, yes, it's particularly acute for men, but it's not like it's a gender specific thing. I mean, but I think the difference in your relationship is you grew up, Katie, in this world, right?

1:30:05So it's been around you. It doesn't hold the same kind of like fascination and allure. Whereas for Kurt, it's like, you know, he traveled across the country and had a dream. It's like, oh my God, I'm here. You know, like, and then it happened fast. Not fast, but it seems like. No, it did happen fast. From getting the job at the Shield to Sons of Anarchy, it was a pretty compressed period of time, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, I always say, because I grew up around it, so this is like the family business. I just remember my father coming home exhausted. I mean, there was nothing glamorous really about it.

1:30:37I mean, it was just, unless I took my elementary school friends over to watch Dr. Kildare, A Man from U.N.C.L.E. being shot. He's a director on those shows. That was pretty cool. That was pretty cool. Then it was like, oh, that's kind of glamorous. But, you know, other than that, it was just, you know, it's interesting to have kids going in it too, you know, and you're just like, I remember when they were little, letting them know every time I did not get the job. I did not want this to look like an easy, breezy, you just, you know, happens. And so I think they have a pretty realistic view of it because I grew up with it.

1:31:14I just grew up knowing this is a gig. You know, this is not going to change my life. Well, Jackson's has that sense of every time a job's over, I'll never work again. Yeah, yeah. We've given him that gift. Because it is that like, Kurt, as somebody who came here hungry, right? And now you're raising kids in privilege and it's sort of like there's expectations that come with that and all of that. And like this is the dilemma of success, right? It really is, especially in parenting. Yeah. Well, and I also just want to say, as we're talking about this money, power and prestige, you know, it's easy for us to say all that coming from places where we have made some money and had some power.

1:31:53You know, if you're a person and you're listening and that is not your experience, you know, maybe you haven't achieved that thing that you thought was so, you know, it's easy for us to say all this. In other words, is what I'm saying. You know, it's because we have we've achieved certain things that we set out to. And so I don't want us to sound so like. No, but I think there's parallels, you know, regardless in terms of the arc of that with most folk. You know what I mean? Obviously not what we do. Yes, absolutely. There's a version of this that makes sense for somebody that is pursuing something completely different, but still has an ambition or I believe.

1:32:37But we're all looking for meaning, right? We're all in search of purpose in our lives. And so the message, regardless of how successful or not successful you are, is that the answer, as much as we want it to be found in property, power, prestige, these things, it ultimately isn't. And yes, it's convenient to say that as somebody who has that and it falls on deaf ears. Like, yeah, for you, but not for me, right? Exactly, right. And everybody has to have their own journey with that. But I guess the message really to somebody who lacks that and aspires to have that is that those things are good. Like, it's not like, oh, they're better, but, but like the deeper meaning and purpose of like being in a human experience is not going to be found there.

1:33:19It will make other things in your life better and easier, but it's not going to provide the thing deep, deep, deep within you that is looking for answers, I guess. I always think money is about freedom. You know, it's convenience and freedom. And it does provide you with that. It does. Absolutely. And time. Yeah. in terms of like arcs there also is like this other arc with kurt which is in his like you know spider version of himself yeah i remember like way back when you know in the blogging era and i think maybe we talked about this when you were on the show the first time which was like back in like when was that like 2018 yeah man you would get in all these scrapes and you would like do these tell-all blog posts where you were naming names and just like speaking out of school bad Bad boy Hollywood.

1:34:08Maybe that Katie made you fall more in love with them. And they're like, here's the bad boy I was looking for. But, and there was something, you know, punk rock about that. Like, look at this guy. He's the only guy who's unafraid to like call it as he sees it. And I'm sure that was a rush. And then, you know, you had to start kind of like, you got the bill for that. Had to pay it. Stop pushing sin. Yeah. And then, you know, you're on Twitter and picking fights with people. And then finally, like that all disappeared. So clearly you had some kind of, you know, comeuppance with that. And then just to finish kind of like the arc part of it, even in the wake of the John Landgraf, like Mayans experience, you wrote this letter, right?

1:34:49Like it was sort of a, you were defending your position, like, and kind of calling out where you thought, like, the way it was being characterized was unfair. Like, this is actually not what happened. Here's what happened. and owning some aspect of it, but there was a self-defensiveness piece to it. And now here you are on the other side of a sort of analogous experience with this latest project, The Abandons, which you created and wrote and like were there and made it all the way through most of the production of the first season. And once again, I've sort of been, I don't know the circumstances of this, but you've walked away from that project.

1:35:27But what's different is there's no letter, There's no defensiveness. There's no angry name-calling blog posts or Twitter spats over this. Like, you just, there seems to be, and I'm saying this as somebody who knows nothing other than, like, reading a deadline piece and knowing you. To me, like, there's the evolution, like, the emotional maturity. And so, is this, you know, explain like that if you could. Look, I think, you know, I will say that there is some of the exit language is still being negotiated because it will come up, obviously, when the show premieres. And, you know, to what people already know, which is the old standard creative differences, is, you know, I had a great experience with my creative partners at Netflix.

1:36:17And for a year and a half, we were on a similar path. And, you know, and at some point in the production, I became aware that perhaps we were making two different shows and that my vision and the way I wanted to make it did not necessarily line up with what it is they needed for their platform. And, you know, I am a fully immersive, eat, drink, sleep. I do not leave my work at home. I do not leave my work at set. Those characters talk to me all the time. I am on set all the time. I am, you know, probably to my own detriment, engaged. and I became aware that my vision was not what the algorithm needed.

1:37:14I, you know, yes, it was hard, it was difficult to step away, but I also know that even if I wanted to or could, I don't think I could have written the show or created that show or continue to produce that show any differently than I was because I was not capable of now manifesting what it is their algorithm needed. And it was painful to, you know, to come to that decision and come to that end. But I also know that I know myself well enough and I know what it is I do well and what's a good fit and what's not a good fit. And so I think the difference is coming out of this circumstance without any regret or remorse for my behavior, my actions, my creative input.

1:38:19Like I feel pretty whole and clean about all of that. So as difficult as it was, that there's no, you know, there's no lingering sense of, you know, damn, you know. Can I just say my perspective? Yeah. You're more angry than I am, though. No, I'm not. Well, I'm not angry right now. I would just say that, you know, Kurt went into that project really with the understanding that I want to do this differently than I've done things before. as he's talked about the lessons learned from the past. And he did that. I mean, he came into that project with the attitude and enthusiasm of love and service, of collaboration, all the things that, you know, perhaps that guy that was writing all the Twitter shit before was fists up in the air.

1:39:14He was not that guy. And I think he's handled himself. You know, it's just so great when you want to do things differently. You know how people say to you like, well, this is just who I am. And you're just like, no, man, don't limit yourself like that. And so I watched Kurt really morph into what this, you know, we set an intention of this is how I want to do something. And he did it and he did it. And so I think I'm just commending you on the way you handled it. And you're right. He has handled it without any of that rancor that happened before. no letters and no, no, no, no arrows to shoot or whatever.

1:39:55But I think it highlights this other thing, which is this tension between, um, like commerce and art, like your, your artistic integrity, like this is your superpower, right? Like your imagination, you're very protective, like you have a vision and you're not going to compromise. And the scruffs that you've gotten in seem to be kind of, you know, relevant to like somebody trying to encroach on that. Right. And you're in a collaborative medium, so that's inevitable. But the reason you've been able to have this career is because you are so committed to that. You believe so strongly in like the specificity of your vision.

1:40:32So this is what gives birth to all of these great things. And yet often, you know, becomes this Achilles heel in a collaborative medium that's also commercial, right? And so Netflix, I mean, the one, like, it's not really a bar, but like the one little edge to like what you shared is like algorithm, right? Like, yeah, fuck you, algorithm, right? And, but like the algorithm is why, you know, this is why Netflix is Netflix. But here's the deal. And I mean this, this is absolutely being truthful with this, is that, you know, there will be a, you know, the writing was good, the acting was great, the directing was like, the pieces of it are all there.

1:41:10Now, I'm not doing the final third of it, which is post where I pick the music, where I put it together, where I do the final rewrite. So it is not wholly, it is not my, my project, but you know, I'm a guy who loves empirical data, right? The algorithm is driven by empirical data. So I'm not saying the algorithm is wrong. They may very well be right. Like it's, you know, most likely the show that they end up putting together that fits that algorithm will be more successful than perhaps the more tangential whatever show that I had intended it to be. I can come out of it with a sense of like, oh, that's a hard lesson that, you know, I've learned.

1:41:59And where is it that now in this landscape, where is it that my kind of storytelling fits? You know, that is the lesson and or not the lesson, but that's the awareness. Right. And But yeah, and I don't say that as a bad thing. You know, it is why they are who they are. And I mean that. It's like that version of the show may very well do better than any other version that could have come out. And I can't. And also, it's their fucking money, right? So they can do whatever they want with it. So I really, you know, like, and I know that. Like, I had to take a step back and go, yes, that's not my show.

1:42:43But that may be a show that everybody wants to watch, you know, and that's humbling, right? But it's true, you know, the algorithm isn't somebody's fancy. It's, you know, I've seen the depth of the data. It's fascinating. It's fucking fascinating. They could basically tell you everything about who's watching what for how long and why. Yeah, and it was amazing. We live in a culture that usually isn't driven by empirical data, at least in some social and political realms. It's kind of like, who's to say what's right, what's wrong? It's all perception. It's like, you might be right. But having that, entertainment is a service business.

1:43:28You're here to serve audiences. The people who are paying the bills are saying, what you want to do isn't really in service of the audience in the way that we would like it to be. And being able to gracefully say, I get that. and not harbor resentment or give them the middle finger. And your daughter is in the project, right? Right, Sarah's in it. So it's like, yeah. And I have a little bit of a thing in it too. And we'll see if we're still there. And look, here's the deal, dude. Was I resentful? Was I hurt? Absolutely. But you didn't do those things that you've done in the past. It's the action part.

1:44:04I can understand that those feelings don't last forever. They don't define me. And again, knowing, doing, you know, digging in and looking at my part and going, okay. They didn't sting as deeply. Did you write the emails and just not hit send? Or like, what did you, I mean, I think this is like, there is a universal kind of lesson in this because we all run into similar situations in which like shit goes sideways and we want to blame other people and we're reluctant to like, look at our side of the street and all of that. So when you're like, I did all this work so that I didn't behave that way, like for somebody who isn't in recovery or, you know, doesn't understand like kind of what that means, like, what is the work?

1:44:47Like, what did you do to kind of grow emotionally to handle it differently? I have a good team. I have an agent that I love and I have a great lawyer. And I'm able to go to them and invent. And, you know, now it's very interesting. I was telling somebody the other day that, oh, he's telling Mike Shrink. We were talking about it. And I said, I'm pretty cool. I said, and he knows my, he plays tennis with my lawyer. And I said, I just can't go to Michael about it because he gets more upset than I do now. It's the most Hollywood thing ever. I know. I was like, I was asking you, like, what is the emotional work that you did that would be relatable to the audience?

1:45:28You're like, well, I called my lawyer and my agent, but then my Shrink talks to my lawyer. No, no, no, no. But meaning I went to people who could understand the experience and I threw up on them. And me too. I got it. I mean, we all, you know, he processed it with the right people. So whatever you do, you have those confidants, those people that understand that you can then vomit on and, you know, and then let that go and try to look for some self-awareness and some acknowledgement of perhaps your part. And then, you know, steer the ship a little bit away from perhaps something that might result in an action that ultimately you regret or that sets you back even further.

1:46:16You know, to me, it kind of does go back to that recovery piece where, you know, we have to figure out our part. When you do step work, you have to figure out your part. That's how you release the resentment. So I think it works in all areas where you just are like, there's always your part. There's always two. So I think once you get to the place where you can realize, okay, here's what I, you know, then you're able to not push send. You're able to write the email maybe or tell the somebody and just, you know, not. Sometimes I can't talk to her about it because she still gets more angry than I do, you know.

1:46:53Well, because it's a beautiful piece of work that I watched a lot of time and investment and serious love go into. And so it was a bit, yeah, pissed me off. Well, yeah, you pour your heart into this thing and you're living and breathing it. And then they're like, thanks, but we'll take it from here. I mean, it's like you're not human if you're not feeling the pain of that. And, you know, I'm sure it will be a challenge. Is it still coming out in the spring? We don't know. We don't know what's happening, really. Honestly, I've had, you know, I mean, as you say, I've had to detach myself. That was very easy because, you know, I had to detach myself.

1:47:36So, yeah, I think that's the plan. And look, my sense is that I, you know, it ebbs and flows. But I think to your point, and I heard you said that, as you said that, it was like it was a beautiful experience. Yeah. And it was a beautiful piece of work. And it was a beautiful world. and, you know, yes, it didn't land or go the way I thought it would or perhaps wanted it to, but I know all of that is true. And you still did it. I still, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I know on some level that seems like, oh, that makes it worse. But like, I also go, yeah, but I got to fucking, I got to do that. Have the experience of it.

1:48:21Yeah. You got to express your vision and be true to your artistic sensibilities. And then you had the opportunity to grow by detaching your identity or your ego to this thing that you created and letting other people like put their fingerprints on it. Yeah, what he just said. That's right. That's exactly right. Right. Here's the other thing. Like we're in a interesting cultural moment and, you know, it's easy for a lot of people to like point fingers at people like yourselves. Oh, the Hollywood elite, like it's this monolith, right? And you represent like one, you know, ideology or something like that.

1:48:58And you're a whipping post for, you know, a lot of different ideas. But set against that, speaking of algorithms, like we're seeing these massive tectonic shifts in the media landscape and the movie industry is, you know, being impacted by this. And so coming out of the pandemic, we see, you know, theater attendance plummeting and the, you know, explosion of the streamers and now kind of like the challenges that all these streamers are having and trying to like make it this thing that seems like it should be profitable, but actually isn't unless you're Netflix. A lot of money being spent, a lot of movie stars doing television shows, It's all blended.

1:49:38And like, is this a movie? Is this a TV show? Is it a limited series? Like there are shows on right now that are extraordinary. Like Michael Fassbender in The Agency based on that show, La Bureau. Which is, La Bureau is amazing. It's incredible. Like La Bureau is one of the best things I've ever seen. Me too. And now they're re-imagining it for an American audience. Is it as good? It's tracking very closely. Like it's very, the fidelity to the original, you know, storyline is pretty clear. and there's some flair and it's CIA and it's set in the London office. So it has, and it's all British people that are doing it and it's being done like at such a high level.

1:50:20I haven't heard one person talk about this show and I'm obsessed with it. Like I just think it's, my point being like incredible talent, incredible projects. Are people watching this? Is this a business model? Is this working? And if it's not like that money's gonna go elsewhere And so what is this auger for people like you that are in this ecosystem and in this economy? Like there's an uncertainty, like things are not the way they used to be and the way they were for a very long period of time. And I'm confident business models will get figured out. So on the one hand, it looks like there's more opportunities for creative people because there's so many projects going on.

1:51:01But the ability to actually like make a living doing this has never been more precarious or difficult. Here's my prediction. This is why you're doing a podcast. It's not even a prediction. It's like - No, not for money, actually. It's more just, you know, turning around behind and looking at history, right? The same way they thought television would kill radio, that it would kill movies, like streaming was going to destroy the movie industry. You know, there is a glut, and you have people now that realize the experience of going to the cinema is half of it, right, of enjoying whatever. Now, has the movie industry taken a hit?

1:51:44Has theater taken a hit? Absolutely. But I do think, and I say this because ultimately there will be no more subscribers, and it's already happening. there will be an ad-based system coming to Netflix. And it will all go back around. You're already seeing it. Like I'm watching something on Amazon Prime and they're showing ads. And it's like, didn't I pay to not have this? Like what is going on? It's going to go back to the way it was. TV was invented to sell soap. Exactly. It's the only reason we have television. It was something, they needed something to put between the ads. And it is the only revenue model that services the greater sources of revenue.

1:52:27And it is inevitable that it goes back to some sort of ad-based revenue system. It just is. And when that begins to happen, you ultimately have, you know, there's a limit to the people who are willing to pull out dollars. And I do think, not that it'll shrink back to what it was, but I think you will see things level out and begin to, we are stretched right now. It's really hard to sell things right now. That's what I do hear a lot and know personally. It's just there's a lot more picking and choosing going on and everybody's trying to figure it out. But I think ultimately, I always, you know, I just think entertainment survives.

1:53:14Like the whole conversation with AI and is it going to be this? Is it going to be that? I think at the end of the day, human experience is what we're banking on. It can never not be marketable. So I just think that, you know, we're just going through a cleaning out process right now. And I think it will bounce back. I agree with Kurt. I think it will be some sort of broadcasty revenue stream. It just has to be. And the irony is that... Unless you're Ted Sarandos, I guess. Uncle Ted. He's out buying a mountain now, building a mountain out. Something. There's this energy around television right now because it's so, with other platforms, it's so connected to other product, right?

1:53:56That there's such caution about the entertainment piece impacting the other markets that - What does that mean? You mean like Apple and Amazon? Yeah, like Apple and Amazon. What they actually sell. It's like they don't want to do anything that fucks up iPhone sales, right? And so there's this weird like swing back in terms of ideology and limitations and content. Oh, absolutely. Like there was like in the 1950s on CBS, right? Yeah. It's this weird like it's limitless content that has to be right here. Yeah, and less gatekeepers and unmediated in all these ways. Yeah. You've seen the clap back.

1:54:38I think that the place where I noticed it the most is in the documentary space. In the beginning, Netflix was like a haven for documentary filmmakers, and all these edgy, really cool documentaries would show up there, and you would get exposed to wonderful work that you ordinarily would never see. And they really built their business on that. That was a leading edge kind of reason to subscribe to Netflix. And then it became about growth into all these foreign territories and any kind of documentaries that were speaking truth to power that would threaten the growth of those subscriber opportunities.

1:55:15There's no reason for Netflix to put a show like that on its platform. It doesn't matter how good the movie is. Now it's crime. Now it's all true crime. It's all true crime. And it's algorithm. This is what people want, right? This obviously works. So you're just seeing more and more and more of that. And it gets diluted to the point where the other thing that it has to come back around to is human imagination, right? And the artistic voice and the vision. And maybe AI will be able to, like, you know, manufacture that. Not anytime soon, hopefully, but that's all you have as an artist, right? Like, that's all that you can, like, go back to and rely upon.

1:55:52You should absolutely have, you should get Landgraf on your podcast. Oh, I'd love to. You know, because he is so fucking smart and has such a strong and educated and experiential point of view about everything you're talking about. And he, unlike me, has a way of delivering in a very, you know, John is the king of calm. Not like in a bar fight way. But he's extraordinary in his understanding and, as you said, how everything is getting diluted and homogenized in a way that is undermining the very thing we're trying to support or manifest. That's my little plug. So where does that leave the two of you, the future?

1:56:46Like, how do you evaluate like what you're doing next and manage like the kind of fear and uncertainty that comes with that? How to manage it? Yeah. Well, because there's lots of fear and uncertainty is to, you know, stay present, know that for today there's enough. I don't know. For me, I sort of, I just did a great show called One Piece, which is for Netflix. And based on a Japanese manga show, it's the second season of their live action. I played this really cool character. so that was really fun and you know for me it's a little it's definitely different than what he does I mean he has to make up a whole bunch of shit I can be um a hired gun on something that's well written and you know I'm just like a gun for hire right now so I I never I don't ever know what the what's next I'm all I'm the first one to say I'll never work again so and I know that's not true.

1:57:40It's been proven that it's not true, but Kurt has to remind me. Yeah. I mean, it's also, for me, I know that everything that I've done that has moved forward in a way, you know, to progress to production or whatever is, I would say 95 % of the time is something that I didn't see coming. Right. And now it comes out of effort, meaning I have to still write every day. I still have to try to, you know, pick up, look at projects that I've started working on, you know, like I have to be engaged and move forward. But I, I guess I've been doing it long enough and I have enough, um, trust. It's not even faith at this point, right?

1:58:22If I'm looking at it happening over and over again, it becomes, I trust that process. So, um, I can trust that if I keep doing what I'm doing, that if something is supposed to come along, even if I wanted to try to figure it out, chances are I'm not going to be able to. The key is still showing up to work, knowing that this is leading to where I'm going. This is not where I'm going, if that makes sense. In a sort of war of art, Steven Pressfield kind of way. Yeah. It's just the idea that I - You show up for the work. Show up and know that. You show up in the rooms, you show up for the page, you show up for the audition.

1:59:06Right, yep. That's what you do. And I mean, this is why we were talking about our kids who are trying to all do this and it is such a different world now. And to say to them, they've chosen this insane non-linear thing to do. There is no track. You are constantly having to reinvent. There's no right way. There's no ladder that you climb up necessarily. And it just takes a little bit of, like I always tell my kids and I tell anybody that's young doing, you have to have this kind of faith in your talent that it's also built on that I can't do anything else. I don't know what else to do. And not that you don't, there's plenty of artistic people that have to find something else to do, But, you know, it just takes like, it's just kind of crazy, man.

1:59:59It's insane what we do. And to trust that it's going to keep going. You're all carnival people. It's really circus. We call ourselves circus people because we move a lot, too. We're always like, one year we had this big ass house that we bought right when we got married. And, you know, I think we both lost our shows right at the same time. And we were like, okay, pack it up. Time to go. And we downsized just a little bit. You know, you just kind of, I mean, for me, that's how I grew up. My dad was always like, you know, from the big house to the littler house. You know, it's just kind of goes along with it, you know.

2:00:36You live in uncertainty. You know, I remember telling this, I think it was probably both Jackson and Sarah, but that, you know, when you go like auditioning, and for me, doing that work I do every day is part of me doing the next job. So that when you're auditioning, you're not auditioning for that project. You're auditioning for the project you're going to get six months down the line. And having that perspective, for me, it takes the pressure off of me to go, what am I doing? How is this going to sell? Like, I can just go, oh, this is what I have to do. And in terms of auditioning, like, it takes the pressure off of, like, I got to get this, you know, I got to get, you know, it's like, no, I do the best I can.

2:01:20You do it because you do it. It's a way of saying like it's about the process. And it's hard. It's hard to do when you're not working and when you're fearful. But it really is, you know, there has to be that kind of approach no matter what it is. I like what you said about trust. That's a great way to, you know, because I'm always couching it as faith. But it's really like you can kind of trust your experience that, you know, it's happened. So it's going to keep happening. I'm saying this to myself. No, that was a Bill Burns thing. Oh, really? Yeah, he had a whole talk about it. Do you think like what you do is only for the people who feel like they just couldn't do anything else?

2:02:00It's sort of like to go into the arts, it's not a meritocracy in the commercial sense. And there's so much uncertainty. And it's a beautiful way to live because you're marrying like you're like. I think what's so kind of underappreciated is the artist's life, especially as someone who's like, you know, it's about like my artistic integrity. Like there's something about that inward journey that is also about like knowing yourself, right? Like it is a spiritual thing. Like it's a spiritual practice and it's a way of being, it's a way of life more than it is like a career track. And that's not for everybody.

2:02:42So for somebody who is aspiring to a creative career or thinking about it, like you mentioned, like things that you tell young people, like what is the counsel that you would give? What I would say is you have to really want it. You have to really want it. All the good and the bad of it, you know, the struggle of it. And, you know, because it's insane. I mean, it's like, and it's very, very limited as to who gets on the other side of the wall. You know, there's this big wall. And then if you get into the pool, that's a big step. And a lot of people just don't. And so you just have to, you know, I don't know.

2:03:28My parents used to always talk to me about a plan B. And I was always like, bullshit, I'm not having a plan B. I don't know. You know, I sing and I, this is what I do. I don't know what else to do. So I remember right before I started working in television, I thought, well, I do like houses. Maybe I'll, I guess I could sell real estate. I guess I could go. Well, I mean, LA's filled, I mean, all real estate agents are people who came here to be an actor or to pursue something in Hollywood. So that sounded like pretty awful. So, I mean, luckily, you know, shit happened, you know, but I. But the plan B thing, it's like, if you have a plan B, then you're the first, when it gets hard, you're probably the first person to.

2:04:07To lean on your plan B. Yeah. So I don't really, you know, I... I don't even know the answer to that question, except to love what you do. I mean, it is a blessing to be able to be an artist. I really, I mean, I remember Ron Perlman telling me this when he was talking to me about his kids who are also in the arts. And what he would say to them was, the greatest gift of my life is to be able to do art. And so how do you discourage a child from wanting to do that? Now, if my kids were not talented, I think I would be the first to tell them, you know what? Not for you. And I would say it very, very honestly, but they're talented, so I get it.

2:04:50And I don't know if I have any advice except just jump in with both feet and be your own best advocate. Yeah. I mean, you don't want to discourage somebody who has a dream, right? And when you're like someone like shadow artists, right? Like if you are kind of attracted to this world, there's lots of different jobs and occupations. Absolutely. Yes. But, you know, it's, I don't know. I don't know, man. Now I really understand my parents. My dad was very discouraging of me being in the arts. He really, like my second brother went to law school. He's the only one of the kids in the family that didn't go into, even though he was an entertainment lawyer.

2:05:31But he, my dad was so, like, that was his favorite, his favorite, because he went to Harvard and did all the stuff, you know. And I was just in my room banging on my piano thinking, this is what I'm going to do. And I just remember him just so worried about me, so worried. In fact, he's the guy, he got me a SAG card because my dad gave me a bit part in something. Because getting a SAG card is hard. Right. If you're going to be a musician, how are you going to get health insurance? So that was his deal. He was like, all right, well, you're going to get a SAG card. So whatever you do, you'll have health insurance, which years later I appreciated much more than at the time I thought he was trying to force me.

2:06:14You're trying to make me be an actor. I don't want to be an actor. That's what I thought. And your dad hated actors. Yeah, he didn't like actors. He didn't hate them. He understood the intolerable nature of them sometimes. Well, I have so much respect for both of you individually as artists, but even more so like your commitment to your spiritual growth and your commitment to each other and to see like the evolution of your marriage and your relationship. And it's evident like how close you are now, like, and that's a product of the work that I'm sure you've both invested, you know, in this process.

2:06:51And like I said, it's a process that I'm in right now. And so it's inspiring, you know, to see you like thriving in this way. Yeah. Thank you, man. That means a lot. Thank you. This was great, man. We did it. We did it. You feel all right? I think so. I think so. Did we do it all right? Yeah. I didn't, you know, like. Were we too personal? No, it's good. Because you have super, you have like super intelligent guests on the show. I know. We're just like. What the fuck are you going to talk about? No, this is great. I didn't know we should juggle. I didn't know what the fuck I was going to do. Yeah, but like if those people come on and they're not coming from the heart, you know what I mean?

2:07:24These are the conversations that I love the most and I savor and reflect on the most. So, all right, everybody. So, check out P.I.E.E. It stands for people, inspiration, influences, and experiences. Because means what? What does that mean? Nature and nurture. Nature and nurture. We sort of dive into not what it is you do, but what created the person that wanted to do it. So it's more about understanding, you know, how someone became who they are. So we try to take a deep dive into, you know, not into exposing trauma or anything like that, but as much as to understand how, like, a perfect example we were just talking about was with Rain, right?

2:08:13Understanding his story that led to that guy is like, you know, like when you hear his story, you're like, holy shit. Yeah. You know, so that's what we love is like being able to immediately get to that level of conversation that sort of digs deeper than most people perhaps are used to doing in either this format or, you know. And then, you know, we're not stupid. So there is a portion where you get to talk about the shit you're doing and eat pie and sell shit. But we like to talk about marriage and parenting and all that stuff, too, because we are all products of where we come from. So we'll tear you open, Rich.

2:08:58Awesome. No, not really. Yeah, no, it's good. Available in all the places, right? I think so. The Kurt Sutter YouTube page. Yes, we do. All the podcast places. Yes. We were on YouTube and on my channel and then in podcast land. Yeah. There you go. Welcome to the wonderful world of podcasting. I love your deal. This is so cool. Well, you're welcome anytime. Thanks you guys. That was really fun. I appreciate it. Yeah, much love. Peace.

2:09:35That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

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2:10:55Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:11:32No!