Proof Of Life: Jennifer Pastiloff On Silencing Your Inner Critic, Transforming Childhood Trauma, & The Radical Power Of Self-Acceptance

28:04But you're going to make me cry. And I have, I still have this, it's such a weird response. And it's like, it's not on purpose. I have this thing that happens where I start to fight it, where, and I'm like clenching and my mind starts to go, it's, it's like, I have to go, okay, relax, relax, because it's still, it's so foreign. And I guess when I was eight, I thought if I let myself feel, I will die from grief. And so like, even now when I start to feel something, like I'm starting to get a migraine because I'm fighting it instead of just like allowing it, you know, but also I'm grateful because feeling emotionally constipated or not being able to emote is an awful feeling.

28:48Is it true that it wasn't until your son was eight that you were able to find compassion for your eight-year-old self in that situation? And I want to say it out loud because that's what shame loss is, the refusal to hide in shame. There's a part of me that was like, so when I was like 11 and people would say, I'm so sorry about your dad, I would go, It doesn't matter. It was a long time ago now. Like also grief has no expiration date. I never metabolized. I never dealt with my dad's death. And because I was so wise and mature and adult, like people treated me that way. So there was like an embarrassment of like, how can I be, how can my son just turned nine in May?

29:34How can it only be now I'm dealing with this stuff? What is wrong with me? And then the good news is that only lasts a couple minutes before I go, nothing is wrong with me and there's no timeline and it's never too late. But I could never have known that I would see my son and I almost had to look away sometimes. And I, that was me. I was just a little kid and I didn't think I was going to have kids. And I would look at him and I would I get so, wow. And what a gift. I've never seen myself with tenderness or softness ever until six months ago, a year. Wow. When were you a waitress at Newsroom Cafe?

30:19Because that place - Every night in my nightmare still or my dreams. Well, I started there when I was 21 and I stopped when I was 34. I think I stopped working there maybe 2009. Okay, yeah. That was in the later stages of that place. No, no, no. Rich, I worked there like a year after it opened. Oh, you did? I worked there five days a week for 14 years. Were you there in 1998? Yes. So that restaurant is very important in my life. Oh, for fuck's sake. Now I have the chills. Because it was really the beginning of my sobriety journey. Like I - Your sobriety journey? I was sort of forced into AA initially by the nudge of a judge.

31:10I'm sure I wait, were you part of the Sunday night crew? I was, but my mainstay was going to the log cabin every morning. Yeah. And of course, the newsroom cafe is just down the block from there. So I would eat breakfast there every morning, but hold on a second. Let me finish this. Look at me with my hair up. It was so long ago and my mind was a blur at that time, but I would eat there after the meeting regularly, multiple times a week. This is back in 1998. But this was a period in which I was begrudgingly going to AA because I'd gotten into trouble with the law. and I had to get the court card signed and all of that.

31:54And so I was constantly relapsing and going out and coming back. And there was one morning in particular that I showed up at the meeting, went to the newsroom afterwards and was in a really dark place because I just relapsed again and I just didn't know what to do. And I was the guy who would sit in the back and not talk to anyone. Outside. And a guy came up to me, a guy who will remain unnamed because I was eating breakfast alone. And he came up and he said, hey, why don't you come over with us? And he brought me into a group of people. And that guy would go on to become my sponsor and really saved my life and changed my relationship with recovery.

32:37And that was the beginning of taking it seriously and truly getting sober. And that simple encounter from that one human being like shifted the trajectory of my life in a very meaningful way. And it all went down at the newsroom cafe where you were working and we're probably there that morning. A line, a line. Yeah. First of all, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And I talk about that all the time because I do it and I watch people how much we underestimate ourselves in, oh, I'm not rich role, so I don't make a difference. And it's like, just, you have no idea the kind of difference you can alter the course of someone's life.

33:25And I thought about that at the restaurant a lot. Like, it was an ecstasy to Sinai. Like, sometimes I'd put my hand on someone's shoulder. You never know. Like, their kid's dying, whatever. And the way that we can have that power and just to know, and that's just by being us. But that you shared that for many reasons. One, the synchronicity, and also because I'm new in my sober journey, but I believe that we find our people. And I just think that's so incredible, that connection because it could have been anywhere, but at that restaurant that I worked at for 14 years. Yeah, it was sort of the peach pit of early morning Los Angeles sobriety, and it no longer exists anymore.

34:11Like it's gone now. Do you know what it's called now, Rich Roll? The Henry. life is you know what do you make of that jen i make of that look sense of humor is the most important thing to me followed by breath okay fine breath's more important but i find life's got a sense of humor yeah you know and things are really dark and awful right now especially and so I constantly look for the funny and the little wink and I just, I don't know. I like to be like, it's just a little wink. My partner's name is Henry, so. For those that don't know, Henry Zirny, who plays Kittredge in the Mission Impossible movies and as we were talking before the podcast is truly the center of gravitas of that movie and the voice that you hear in every one of the trailers and commercials.

35:09Your mission. And he's just, he's my everything. And I'm very, very grateful. And I'm so grateful that you not only knew who he was, but I love people who are willing to express their admiration or love or gratitude. I think it's such a gorgeous quality. The fact that you shared what you shared is it really touched me.

35:35What if we've all been thinking about our future wrong? What if there is no finish line? What if there's only a through line? Well, that's the idea behind a special project I've been working on with Lincoln Financial, a four-part series of mini documentaries in which each episode features me spending the better part of a day with a remarkable human to understand what it really takes to evolve with intention over the long haul and how to sustain what you love across the physical, mental, and financial dimensions of life. My guests include something for everyone. Andre Agassi, tennis legend. Olympian Sarah True, musician Walker Hayes.

36:15And Morgan Housel, an expert in personal finance. So if you're drawn to the kind of depth that we explore on this show, I think you're going to really connect with this program. It's called The Action Plan, and you can check it out now at lincolnfinancial.com slash richroll.

36:35This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack sponsor. IQ Bar is the better for you plant protein-based snacks made with brain-boosting nutrients to refuel, nourish, and satisfy hunger without the sugar crash. Finding portable nutrition that aligns with my plant-based lifestyle has always been challenging. But when IQ Bar sent me their Ultimate Sampler Pack, their chocolate sea salt flavor immediately stood out. Super good. Just the right balance, satisfying without being overly sweet. They're completely free from gluten, dairy, soy, GMOs, and artificial sweeteners. Just clean, straightforward nutrition.

37:13And unlike so many bars out there, these don't send your blood sugar on a roller coaster. There are just tons of bars out there. Believe me, I've tried them all, but IQ Bar stands above with over 25 ,000 five-star reviews and counting, which is cool because it means more people than ever are starting their days on the right foot with IQ Bar's brain and body boosting bars. And right now, IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20 % off all IQ Bar products. Plus, you can get free shipping. To get your 20 % off, text RICHROLL to 64000. That's RICHROLL to 64000. Message and data rates may apply.

37:53See terms for details.

37:58You have this provocative idea that you talk about in your TED talk, which is nothing you do is wrong. Well, that's not, that was my, Charlie Mao said that to me. Oh, yeah, okay. So I wanna understand this because it's very confrontational to me. Rich, let's be clear. My inner asshole says, Jennifer, everything you do is wrong. I was late today. I'm more familiar with that voice. No shit, we all are. That is why when I was painting as someone who doesn't know how to paint and became a painter as one does, and I was ruminating, do not ruminate people, especially before bed, on feeling guilty because of all the times I wasn't present.

38:44You know, I was newly sober and I was just like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm never, you know, with my son and all these things. And he walks in. I swear to God, like the kid is like a Buddha. And he hands me two flowers and he says, for the best mommy in the world. And then he looks me in the eye. He's eight at the time. And he grabs my shoulders and he goes, mommy, nothing you do is wrong.

39:17what? I mean, I like laughed, cried, snotted. I was like, it's those moments where if you don't believe in magic or whatever, but are you kidding me? And the way he said it and what? And trust me, I'm very careful. I don't say, you know. So I realized that is what I've been waiting for my whole life. And even with drinking and sobriety, I wanted someone to make me stop. And that was never going to happen. I wanted someone to say it wasn't your fault. And you just did. I wanted someone to make me stop hating myself, to tell me nothing I do is wrong. And if I said it to myself, which I do a lot, nothing you do is wrong, I'd be like, oh, shut the fuck up but I would never say that to my eight-year-old son which is why I titled my TED talk that which is why it's a gift and I and I said to you to anyone so imagine that that and of course I'm not pleased I'm not talking about nothing you do is wrong barring you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else so don't give me any of that like well what about I'm talking like anything besides that, besides intentionally hurting another.

40:38I would never look at my son and go, you dirty liar, you're full of shit, you know? It's more about the tenor of the internal voice. Like, is it constantly ripping you a new one? Absolutely. Or is it nurturing you? Because obviously, you know, denial is part of trying to tell yourself that what you're doing isn't wrong. You know, like you're trying to like push that away. You have to be accountable for your past actions in order to grow and change. And again, you hit the nail on the head. It's about the tenor of the inner voice. And it's about, you know, this idea. I like rituals. I start the day with something I call a body prayer only because it's generated from my own body.

41:22Call it whatever you want. It's an invocation. And I try to do it before I look at my phone, often fail before the world comes at me. And I begin it with may I remember because it's what I know, but I've forgotten. And may I remember to have a sense of humor today about myself, whatever. But let's say I go through the day and I don't. I realized the missing link was letting myself off the hook. And so it's really about letting yourself off the hook. Now, sometimes we have to be on the hook and then knowing we can begin again. So for example, like with our sobriety things and things like that. It's like, okay, I can't change what happened.

42:01I can change the story I have around it that like I was a monster, I was a bad person, but I can't change what happened, but now what? And also what you're talking about, that justification, like that's not what I'm talking about either. That's where you're being, where you're immobilized in a way and like you're looking for justification. my goal is to stop lying to myself. So it's not that, it's to wear kid gloves with ourselves. You have a long history of lying to yourself. Doesn't everyone? No, maybe not. I don't know. I certainly do. I don't know. I don't know what goes on in other people's minds.

42:39Agreed. I know it goes in and mine and I can go to AA meetings and I realize there are other people that think like me. All I know is what it's like to allow that inner asshole to run wild and free and wreak havoc on my mind and my life. What has been your path or your way to figuring out how to change that voice? Is it about muting it? Is it about acknowledging it? Is it about overcoming it? I love that you asked that. And I believe in daily practices. and then I went and changed it at the last minute because I'm like, I can't lie, daily-ish practices because I am not the best at consistency and so daily-ish, but it changes what works.

43:30And so I like to think of something that I'm the headmaster of this school called the School of Whatever Works. Again, barring you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else. And it's always just for today. And I know you're very familiar with this, You know, AA, it's just, I can only say today. So for today, what works? Well, okay. One like really simple thing. I know that intentionality is really important to me. So if I pick up my phone to like look at the time and then three hours later, I'm still scrolling, that's not intentional. And then I feel terrible because I'm comparing myself to these other people who are not eating Trader Joe's beans out of a can and they're, you know.

44:11So, okay, let me sleep with my phone in the other room. So it's not the last and the first thing I do. Painting has become my medicine. That is the one thing, it feels weird to admit, the one thing where I don't talk shit to myself. Interestual is just not there. And guess what? I'm taking it. I keep going because I'm like, I found it's medicine and I love it. And may we all find that, right? But I think it changes every day. my I got you people, people who see me like you, when I said, oh, I feel so seen as opposed to like a relationship I had that for two years that validated that I was, that I sucked really, you know?

44:52So, um, it changes what works every day. And it's about discovering and being willing to discover, well, what works in not letting this voice be the boss of me? What are you pondering right now. I'm seeing all the - I'm trying to think of, you know, my version of that. Like what works to quiet or quell that voice? Oh, I mean, I listen to you all the time. I'm not gonna tell you what's in your mind, but it's like - I don't know. But you're so smart. Like, I bet your brain gets in your way a lot. I appreciate that, but that gets in the way. You know, that's a problem. Did you hear me? I said you're so smart.

45:29Your brain gets in the way a lot, and you said it at the same time jinx. I could tell. Because I want to outthink it and that's not really the best strategy. Well, for me, I'm less concerned me personally with the why or the because like my brain, I don't know why, I just know it does. So when I'm more concerned with, well, now what? Because I'm more interested in being embodied rather than, you know, but anyway, all that to I say is you're very smart. Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. I love that you write about this idea of living in the land of fine, right? Everything's fine. Fine. And that's related to the inner asshole and to the denial and the sense that you're unworthy because you're basically pursuing life from a place of fear.

46:21And as a result, your life is sort of small and you're trying to control everything. But it didn't look that way on paper, on Instagram. Right. Yeah. Whatever it looks like to the external world, the interior experience is I'm suffering, but I'm too afraid to make a change. And it's easier to just stay where I'm at. Like everything is quote unquote fine. And that's sort of a life of quiet desperation. I didn't acknowledge I was suffering. Talk about denial. Like, you know, like I thought I was dead inside. I also thought I had no sex drive. I thought, you know, needs, wants. It wasn't even like I'm suffering.

47:04I just disconnect from your body long enough or your feelings long enough. You know, I wrote a poem about the history of my education, and it was like I learned that to withstand one thing, you must withstand everything. So, you know, I ignored how anything felt until it didn't. So then I didn't register. Do you know what I'm saying? and that is even sadder to me. You know, if you stay at a surface level, because if you go deeper, at least for me, then you have to go, well, now what? That's why I never said out loud anything about my drinking. So I didn't have to do anything about it. But I didn't acknowledge I was suffering.

47:43Everyone knew. I mean, but, you know, I convinced myself again. So what happened? What did it take for you to blow up your life, as you say? And this idea that like blowing up your life, there's a fine line between destruction and expansion. I love that you caught that. That was another thing I added at the last minute because it was an epiphany where, you know, some people were like, oh my God, you know, you blew up your life, you destroyed it, you wrecked it or my inner asshole. and it dawned on me, wait a minute, I expanded it, but it can feel like the same thing. That epiphany was so comforting.

48:28Not immediately because that's bypassing, right? Oh, I'm expanding. It's like, whoa, feel it first, right? There's part of me that feels bad. You know, I love my ex. I do. And we have this wacky living situation that is weird. It's our weird. You're still in that? I'm still in it. So you're still living with your ex-husband? I'm, yeah. Wow. You know, it's like, I'm always like, I'm not gonna hide in shame. And then I say things and I go, wow, I really went there. But I'm working on not denying my impulses. And I don't have an impulse to drink. I do think I do, but then I sit with, what is it that I really want?

49:18If that makes sense, I think it does to you. But I wanna do my best to not throw my ex under the bus because he is lovely. And there was things I wasn't gonna say and ended up saying in the book because it's what was so, and it would be a disservice if I didn't. So we were like ships in the night, like right now we're like roommates and we were always like that. And in fact, my son even, he's thriving and he looks at us and we're better now. But in terms of like how we cohabitate, we cohabitate-ish. But I knew how he thought and, well, not how he thought, but like sort of his way of being as it were, even though he didn't necessarily say it out loud.

50:06And so we were in London two days before I had met Henry, not romantic in any way, shape or form, like at all. but we had the most amazing conversation. And I came home and posted about it on Instagram and I was like, oh my God, you guys, my ex and I, it wasn't romantic. I was with my husband and we met this guy and we had the most amazing conversation about beauty hunting. You know that connection is my everything. And I said, and he lives in LA. I go, you're gonna see us and you're gonna think they've been friends forever. Totally unrelated. So my friend Holt McAllenay, who's also in - Oh, I love that guy.

50:48Oh my God. He's gonna, oh, hi Holt. Like all time, all time that guy character actor. He's, well, he's a star right now of The Waterfront on Netflix and he's so good. Anyway, Holt is a friend of 30 years. And so it's a funny story because Holt had invited us to this party, but we weren't really invited. He was like, you know, I said, I want you to see Charlie. He was, well, stop by. but basically it's a barbecue for the cast and crew of Mission Impossible that I'm filming here in London and basically it was like so you leave before it starts because it you know he didn't it wasn't for us and it's not a kid thing well I had started painting and I was painting and lo and behold we were running late and my ex was like let's not go because we're not really invited and it's late I was like you know what let's go it'll be an hour in the Uber yeah but let's go I just had a feeling.

51:42And I said, if it's awkward, we'll leave. Well, we get there an hour later and Charlie runs in and runs off. And I was like, oh, shit. And then the first person I see, I don't get starstruck. You know, I will if like, I don't know, Michelle Obama or, you know, Anne Lamont. But the first person I see is Angela Bassett. And I go, we're staying. I love her. I love you, Angela. And it ended up being the most amazing night. And there was a magician there. Yes, Holt had a magician. Okay. So there's all these weird factors. And Henry and I had this amazing conversation and I posted about it. End of story.

52:21End of story. Two days later, unrelated to that, still in London, we went to see a play. My husband, my son, my mother-in-law. And that afternoon was the day I cried at the restaurant, which is also very bizarre for the first time. And after the play, I said to my ex that it makes me sad that Charlie, you know, never sees us like laughing or connected or kissing. And I forget all the things I said. He was like on the couch in our Airbnb. I was in the kitchen and I was sick, but I was pouring a glass of wine because of course I was. and I said that it just makes me sad and he looked at me and he goes that's life and that was the crucible I slammed down the glass of wine and there was this moment and I knew I knew I knew wow this is this like uh I swear Eminem came in it was like you know uh you got one shot I was like, wait a minute, because the way I thought of it was like, you know, I can be in denial and pretend that I don't.

53:33First of all, I don't I don't believe that in the core of me, that's life. But I was living as if now I can pretend I don't know that he was. But once he named it out loud, I'm going to look away. And so for me, that was a crucible and a higher power. my dead father, I don't know, but I had no idea what was going to come out of my mouth because I had never said it. I said, I'm not happy. I think we should get a separation. And that was it for me. And then we came back and, you know, and it took many months because it wasn't, he didn't think I was, you know, but once I named it, that's all I saw.

54:17Like it was, and it sounds so stupid like but this has been here the whole time why am I just seeing it now but I think it's just what we do and um but once I named it and honestly it felt like I had no control over what came out of my mouth I know that I did but it came from I I feel I had no choice like it a sense of survival or a vote for yourself or just an inner belief that there has to be something more. Like I don't have to suffer silently or in this like low grade, you know, kind of sense of life being less than you knew innately it could be. I wanna be careful. I'm very careful because I love my ex and I wanna be careful not to say more because that suggests less than.

55:09It's different. Not more, not more. Different. and that's okay. You know, like we find our people, you know, and like, it's true. You know, we do so well now. And I think we just, bless, we had this beautiful child, but we just like, you know, what I wanted and I would never, I didn't even acknowledge was like intimacy scared me more than anything, but that's what I really, and that scared me of course, because if I let that in, they would drop that or leave, right? But also it was a line, right? It was like, wait a minute. This thing I say every day to myself and I do, may I have the courage to be who I say I am.

55:56That's what it was. It was a moment where I went, you are so full of shit. If you're going to be who you say you are, because I don't buy into that's life. and had I gone, you're right, then who am I being? But also survival rich because my friend, Krista Paravani texted me once and she said a couple of years ago, how did you get the courage to change everything in your life? And I have a habit of like picking up other people's drinks. And so I literally was like, I picked up someone else's phone. and that is not for me because I don't change. That would make me die. But then I was like, wait a minute.

56:41But I didn't answer her. And I went with Henry to a storage unit where he was storing his stuff in the interim of buying a house. And because he's a total nerd and he builds things, he insisted on building a shelving unit. And it was January at 4 o 'clock. The sun goes down at 5. There was no electricity in the unit. so he had to build it before the sun went down and I was sitting there watching him and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I went, I know how I did it. I had to before I ran out of light.

57:47This episode is sponsored by Shox. don't interfere with that, that don't block out my environment, but instead enhance my relationship with it, which is why I upgraded my earbuds to shocks. The Open Run Pro 2 takes my walks next level by allowing me to hear everything around me, like birds and wind and, of course, my footsteps, while also still being able to enjoy incredible audio quality. The IP55 rating means I never think twice about weather or sweat. Not that I'm sweating that much right now, but you get the picture. The OpenFit 2 has become my go-to for everything else, work calls, audiobooks, podcasts, while I'm reclining on a zero-gravity chair, doctor's orders, moving around the house, you know, music during quiet moments.

58:30And the Open Dots 1, that's the sweet spot. Refined enough for meetings, but durable enough for any activity, and light enough to wear all day long. It's not about choosing between awareness and immersion anymore. With Shox, you get both. Head to SHOKZ.com and use code RICHROLL for$10 off your purchase.

59:14Right in front of our faces, there is Mint Mobile, tantalizing us with three months of unlimited service for just 15 bucks a month. Not 50, not 80,$15. I talk a lot about how to make a positive change, how nuanced it can be, how hard it can be. But this change is just about as easy as they come. With Mint, you get the same nationwide 5G coverage you're used to at a fraction of the price. And yeah, you get to keep your phone and you get to keep your phone number. Everything just transfers right over. This is the definition of low hanging fruit for anyone trying to be more intentional with their spending, which I am more committed to than ever.

59:57I got to tell you, especially after spending an entire day with the financial wizard, Morgan Housel, which I did for my recent mini series, The Action Plan. So put some action into your spending plan. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three-month unlimited wireless plan for just$15 a month at mintmobile.com slash richroll. That's mintmobile.com slash richroll. Upfront payment of$45 required, equivalent to$15 a month. Limited time, new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and Fees Extra.

1:00:39See Mint Mobile for details.

1:00:44But when I hear that story, to me, it sounds like this was the first time that you were willing to rip the Band-Aid off and look at something that you had refused to look at for a long time. And once you do that, then suddenly everything else kind of starts to, the dam's gonna burst, right? And you're gonna have to look at all kinds of stuff. You could not be more accurate. You, I mean, I didn't recognize myself. That's why it felt like, that's why I relied on my I Got You people so much because, I mean, it's very much like becoming newly sober because suddenly everything looked different. Nothing was.

1:01:22You know, the way I talked about it, it was like everything was tilted. It's like, no, what I had been tilting. Exactly. I ripped the bandaid off and all the things I was like pretending not to see, or I really didn't. because of so many years of the way I'd been programmed myself. I mean, and it was terrifying. It felt like I had no solid ground beneath me. I was so afraid. My favorite words are, it's gonna be okay. So I would just ask my friends to text me that, to remind me that. But it's a different kind of fear. There's a certain kind of fear that kept you in that place. The new kind of fear is what's gonna happen now that I have to look at it and change.

1:02:04And I think when the first fear becomes more than the second, that's when you actually start to take action on it. The first fear is this, it's being the boss of me. It's calling the shots. It's keeping me immobilized, lying to myself, all the things. The second fear is I'm afraid and I'm doing it anyway. I'm acknowledging it. And not only that, I'm asking for help. So what did you do like on a practical level? I literally would ask for help. I'd ask even if it meant just sit and spend time with me, you know. A lot of it was surrounding myself with people who made me feel held and safe. Safe is like my big, big thing.

1:02:55Making art. Practical. Because I wasn't in my head. Because my art is all about freedom. because I don't know what I'm doing and the gift in that, you know, getting really present with my son. You know, I don't think I know, I didn't experience joy until he was born. I have no pictures of myself as a child smiling. So there were things I would do that would, all right, it's there, but I'm not gonna let it be the boss of me, except on the days that I did. So there's these competing things that are happening. Suddenly you're feeling empowered to move your life in a different direction. Like, you know, the situation you're in isn't - I did not feel empowered by the way, I do now.

1:03:44So I wanna understand this because there's this awareness. Okay, I think I need something different. I think I want something different. It's scary, but what's scarier is staying here. Yes. But at the same time, you have the inner asshole that is affirming this looping message that you're undeserving of love and good things. And how dare you? And like, who do you think you are? And not for nothing, that ship has sailed, it's too late. So, you know, how are you, you know, reckoning with that at that time? Yeah, so, you know, I have to tell you, I did not feel empowered. I, my old, I am a bad person.

1:04:23I'm a monster. I ruin everything. I kill everything. That came back with a vengeance. and so I was so, so terrified. That is why I relied so much on my people and whatever I found that worked. My people, painting, you know, I was so, so afraid because that voice was so loud, you know, that I thought was like tamed that literally a monster and my friend Mimi Feldman and I realized they cut it from the book, but she said something to me at my Italy retreat. She said, I was like, remind me I'm not a monster. I mean, I was, thank God my friends weren't annoyed or they were, they didn't tell me because I was so afraid and I really needed a hand to hold until where I am now.

1:05:12She's, I said, am I a monster? And she looked, she said, you know, Jen, I'm going to butcher what she said verbatim, but she said, in this situation regarding my ex and I, someone's going to be the monster. So if you're going to be a monster, be the best monster you can be. And I swear it was like, okay.

1:05:36And what I had to do was find any way I could to remind myself that I was not a bad person, that I did not destroy everything, that I didn't ruin everything. And first of all, like the level of narcissism, but it's like an eight-year-old, right? of like, I ruined everything. And it's, but it's that eight-year-old me. But finding reminders and what's so beautiful now. And I clung to Henry so much in the beginning, like I'll die without you. And now I love him, but I don't need him. And I didn't feel that way in the beginning. I needed to feel safe and I'm okay with saying that. I'm so proud. I can admit that.

1:06:21But it was like my bad mantra, my, I mean, it came back with a vengeance and I was riddled with shame. I slipped back into anorexia. I mean, it was dark. So before the like, yeah, where I am now and I'm not even there now was a dark night of the soul. But the starting place to liberate yourself from this notion that you're broken and this desire for intimacy, but fear of it because that's associated with people. I didn't know I desired it. All of these things. Like the only way to unravel this knot is to go back to the beginning and, you know, heal the wound where it was created. Like how can you process that experience?

1:07:08Fuck, isn't there a shortcut? And like. Isn't there a shortcut? And, you know, really feel that grief and change the story around what happened when your father passed, right? Like that's where the liberation is gonna happen. I agree, I agree. And also, yes, and it's hard when you have 40 something years of, it's like in my marrow, right? That's why I call it default self. So it's sort of like the alcohol stuff or anorexia, it's like, I'm not healed, always healing. So yes, go back and heal it. But it's like, it easily pops its head up if I'm out of alignment or I'm not vigilant with being who I say I am, you know?

1:08:00But yes, it does go back to that. And that is why this past year has been so wild because how can it be only now that I'm dealing with that thing that happened? You know, it makes me feel so silly. Listen, I'm 58. Like I'm trying to make sense of my childhood only now. You know, it's like, and then you're like, what is wrong with me? I'm like hung up on something that happened, you know, 50 years ago. And that's like, you know, first of all, nothing is wrong with us. And also it's such bullshit too, because there's no timeline and we're never too late. You know, all of these things that, whether they were taught to us or we've just adopted them are not true.

1:08:52Yeah, you call it the imaginary time gods, which I love. The ITG, yeah. We're both late bloomers, but talk a little bit more about - According to who ritual. The violence that we levy on ourselves because we always think that we're not measuring up or we're falling behind or it's too late. So according to who, Rich? Like you're a late bloomer. That actually fascinates me right now. I'm like, what in the, what are you talking about? What do you mean? Well, a late bloomer, okay, according to who? Well, I guess, yeah, according to my inner monologue, I suppose. But it's again. But on paper, you know, according to the imaginary time gods.

1:09:32Oh, because so you're 58. So like you should have been here by 50. No, I mean, I think I didn't really figure out my thing until much later than I presume other people do. Like it's all a story. It all goes back to that. Everything is a story. And I think we lead our lives, we pursue our lives in accordance with some story that we've fabricated and then buy into as true. Or was taught to us or whatever. Whether it's positive or negative, it's all nonsense, right? It's a unconscious thing on some level that we craft based upon this memory and that memory. And yet we know it, but embodying a thing and knowing a thing are different.

1:10:12And then when you put the lie to it and realize like, oh, I have the agency to tell a new story, it's difficult to do. But I think just the recognition that we're all living out narratives in our own mind. And we assume that we're all on the same page with everybody else, unaware that everyone else has their own narrative. See, I don't, I assume the opposite. That they project on others and the people. I was like, I'm not on the same page. I am an island. Either way, the point is like, it's all a story. And I would, I guess just speaking for myself, like part of my story is like, oh, I'm a late bloomer or whatever, it's like, I don't even attempt to deconstruct that, I just accept it as fact, right?

1:10:51But it's funny to hear you say that to me. And you've said this, like, oh, you know, how old were you when you wrote your first book or you're like 44 and 44. No, 44. I was 44, oh my God, I was 41 when I had time. It's like, okay, you're coming into this a little on the later side, like me too. I didn't start my podcast until I was 45. There's something that is like inflicting violence on ourselves through that. But also I think for other people, there is something inspiring about that because it gives them permission like, oh, you don't have to have it all figured out. I didn't figure, I'm still like a mess and I have many things I still have to figure out.

1:11:28Wait, what does it even mean figuring it all out? I at least have some level of inner knowing that I am pursuing something personally meaningful and that I am doing my best to live an authentic life, which I couldn't say for a long time. And there it is. And this is where our stories are very much aligned. Like it is a very similar narrative in that regard. And I think when you say like, yeah, I was this old when I wrote this book or what, you know, I'm like, here I am at this age now. And here's the big mess I'm gonna tell you all about. And here's how I contended with it as best I could in elegantly at times.

1:12:06Are you saying I'm inelegant? No, in ways that like I'm proud of and not proud of, et cetera. But I think that that is empowering to people because we're all to some degree held captive by the imaginary time gods. And we - I think you need to say that again for the people who are deaf. We exact all kinds of judgment on ourselves because we feel like we're not enough or we're behind and so-and-so has already done this and that. And this in and of itself is nothing but a story. Yes. And I also find it fascinating how we view ourselves versus others, right? So the reason it's like, to me, you're so successful and you're this, that, and it's all story.

1:12:50I don't, I mean, but what my point is like to hear you say that is like, what? So the knowing a thing is one thing, it's our brain and the embodying. And like, if you think I didn't know that I had a drinking problem, you're wrong. But embodying the now what, right? So yeah, you know it, but it's fascinating. I think the sense of humor comes into play here and I'm so big on it because I respond with levity. So if something's like too precious or it takes itself too seriously, I just check out. But like, you gotta laugh when I said, well, you said I'm a late bloomer, like according to who? And you couldn't answer.

1:13:33And the reason we can't answer is because exactly, exactly. There's this imaginary and whether it's just the way it is or what have you, but it's bullshit. And yet we perpetuate it. So the more I talk about it and remind people in my way is, you know, with humor and being honest, like I won't lie about my age or anything. It hopefully will. I can't give anyone permission, even though it might feel that way. That's the subtitle. You got to be your own permission slip. But it feels that way. Like, well, maybe maybe I'm not, you know, there's no such thing as like a universal timeline or you're supposed to.

1:14:15It's like, should, they're all assholes. So it's the idea of like, you're right, that inner knowing. And also we get to change our minds. And for me, that was huge, you know, and I have to remind myself that all the time, you get to change your mind. And so who's to say what a late, what does that even mean? And it's so much about they, them, you know, according to who, And really at the end of the day, it's according to me. And if we, that inner, whatever you wanna call it, inner compass, inner GPS. You talk about these unconscious commitments that we make. Like that would be one of them. Like I am committed to this idea that I'm a late bloomer.

1:15:01Like we're not even like really aware that we've made these commitments and we're doubling down on these ideas. And you have to be able to step back and see yourself at a distance in order to even like identify these patterns that are just on autopilot that we all have that we didn't ever consciously construct. Yeah, and you know, got a shout out to my chosen fam gang, Katie Hendricks. They taught me about that. And it's funny because, you know, they live in Ojai too. And Gay said, it's one of my most controversial things. And I was like, that's so interesting. Which is what? Unconscious commitments.

1:15:41And I asked, why? Is it because then people have to reckon with the fact that they actually have agency rather than sort of, like, for example, I have an unconscious commitment. I've recognized that of living chaos, you know? And so a lot of times it's really hard for people, i.e. me, to recognize what they are. and Gay will say, one way is you can look at the thing you complain about a lot and like the, sort of the, how often it's happening, right? And like for me to go, oh, I'm so unorganized or, you know, this morning was a good example. And then he said, you can go, hmm, they're very big on that sound.

1:16:29And I forget exactly why, but that sound, it's a curious, I love it because it's actually about curiosity. Where would I have gotten that, you know? And I'm less concerned with the reason and the cause and the now what. But then, you know, again, it's about naming it and then consciously committing to something else. But also for me, it's about compassion. I understand why. I was raised by a single mom, chaos, you know. So I understand why, but to be able to name it and own it and then shift it into, well, what do I wanna be consciously committed to? And I think it can be really painful to admit it.

1:17:04Like I have an unconscious commitment to the belief that I'm like unlovable. That's not me right now, but I know a lot of, especially women or, or to being broke. And so when we really take a look at, wow, what am I committing to unconsciously? It's wild. And it's so empowering because then we, and it's a daily practice, consciously shift. And I'm making it sound like it's just so easy, but it's about intentionality. I think a way that I approach that is to identify the need that it's fulfilling. Yeah, exactly. Because you're doing it for a reason and it's doing something for you. Like the payoff, what are you getting, right?

1:17:47You're getting something out of it. You're complaining about it, but in truth, you actually want it. Like you're bringing this into your experience for a reason and that reason is to do something for you, right? And behind that, you know, part of it is generally about allaying some fear. You have some fear and this behavior or this pattern is keeping that fear at bay and giving you a sense of control or whatever it may be, but it's - Or validating a belief you have about yourself. Exactly, exactly. You're not worthy or you suck. You have to just deconstruct that and say, okay, well, is that need necessary?

1:18:24If it is, then is there another way to fulfill that or give me that sense of security in a real and meaningful way and not in this way that is destructive and negative. Yeah, I mean, and it's like, I know we're making it sound easy, you know, like all things that are simple, not easy, but it can be, I think it can feel shameful, like to admit out, like, who wants to say, I'm unconsciously committed to always being broke. It's like, ew, but the power in that. And, you know, Gay really, really drove that home. And I just thought the fact that he said it's controversial and I realized because yeah, then people, then we have to go, well, now what?

1:19:10Yeah, because who wants to look at this stuff, honestly? But when he said that, it brought back why I put that story in the book about the conversation of that's life because who wants to look at that because it's controversial because otherwise people go, well, that's life. That's just the way it is. And no, actually. Now, some things, yes, like my nephew has a genetic disorder. That is what is so, but am I always going to have to hustle? No, that's not just life, right? So it does, it did really, really struck a nerve with me. I thought, wow. Yeah. What, what do I want to consciously commit to rather than being like, that's just the way it is.

1:19:59So what is the big unconscious commitment that you're trying to untangle right now? This tattoo, conscious ink, you know, I get to have this and the this, it's not like I get to have this rich and you don't, it's like, I get to be happy. You know, I didn't think I did. And so, you know, your this is whatever your inner asshole tells you, you don't get to have, but I keep trying to unpack it because, you know, success, whatever. I define success very differently than the standard. To me, it's like, I told the truth today. I was aligned. But that no matter what, I'll always have to hustle. That, you know, that's what I watched my mom and a single mom and chaos and hand to mouth.

1:20:49and I don't get to have ease that I'll never get there. And there is ever changing and who knows. And I hear it. I hear how, you know, I won't get to sit at the table as I'm sitting at ritual's table. But, and it all is because I'm a bad person and I can like cognitively get why. and yet that sneaky mofo is sometimes still there and I'm up against it right now, right before the book comes out because I think we find, I know we find what we're looking for and so when I'm out of alignment and I'm feeling like fear is the boss of me and all that, all of a sudden, if I'm like, no one likes me and I will find evidence of that And so in this time before the book, you know, no, thank you.

1:21:50And like, you know, no returned emails or whatever it may be. It's like, see, see, looking for all this evidence. And so I have to be very consciously committed to staying aligned to who I know I am rather than looking for evidence of all them letting me know I suck. because anyway, it's a story, but. And what else is part of that practice? You talked about the painting, keeping your phone away from you, things like that. But like, how do you tend to yourself to, you know, what is the self-care practice beyond like the painting and the phone stuff? Yeah, so the painting for me is self-care and I love that I've started selling them too because that's amazing.

1:22:42But that's a really great question. I'm really, I don't know if this is considered self-care, but I'm really discerning with my energy and my time. And so if I don't want to go, no. So that's self-care, meaning, you know, I don't divvy myself out out of obligation. People, please. No, I mean, I'm sure I still have some qualities of that, but no, I mean, I got other shit, ADD, like raging, but that one, not so much. What I will say is exercise and yet I was an exercise bulimic and not a like regular bulimic because when I was in high school and I couldn't, but I haven't exercised in two years and it really helps me with my depression and with everything and I haven't been able to get started again.

1:23:43And so I feel sort of confronted when you ask me the self-care thing. But I will say the not drinking, like last night I wondered, I was so, I wasn't at risk of drinking, but I felt so angry that I couldn't and that why can't I just be like someone who just can and have won and that I didn't, that I found something else. And then I started painting and laughter, finding ways to laugh. So self-care for me is the biggest one right now is the fact that I'm not abusing myself anymore with the alcohol. And does the fact that the book is about to come out, like it brings all this stuff up, right? Are you kidding?

1:24:34Yeah. I am like ready for this. why did I tell people? Because if I didn't say it out loud, I could have drank and then gone back to not drinking all the lies. I mean, you have no idea. You could have been the next book. You could have made that later. I am like, Jennifer, why did you have to say it out loud? You know, and my son's away. Henry is away. My dad's death anniversary is coming up. The book's about to come out. I am in it. And there is no alcohol in my system. And so it's an experience that I've never had before. I mean, as an adult. When I think about your story, it just reaffirms this idea that these wounds that we all have, if we can summon the courage to face them and heal them, or at least attempt to heal them, that it creates not only the foundation for a new life, a more authentic life, a life that is freer and more honest.

1:25:36That's free. But also when you extend that courage to share it by dint of your books, that this is the stuff of human connection, right? And fundamentally, like the wound is really all about like connection. You know, the wound is the start of our inability to connect and by healing it and sharing it, we resolve it and we find ourselves more connected to other people than we could have imagined. And yeah, that fear of like, oh my God, I told this story and people are gonna read it or why did I do this or why did I do that? But like that shared humanity is what makes us realize like that we're all, that we're all in this together, that we're one and we can see ourselves in other people.

1:26:23It's always fascinating to me the way, I call it fallen lovable, you know, like you can't define it, But it's like right now you're so fallen lovable because you're just being utterly yourself. Sometimes it's like the snots fly and they're laughing, but it's the things that we often hide. And that is the thing that is so attractive and beautiful. We hide them because we think that's the thing that's gonna make people not wanna be around us. Again, it goes back to them. It's all about them. And in the book, I italicize it because I'm like, who are they? But them. hmm, what, and then like, how about self-promotion?

1:27:04Like, I want to barf in my mouth if I keep pre-orders are so important, you know, and people are like, wow, you're so good at it. Well, guess what? The reason most people can't do it is because it's about what others will think. I mean, I've never met anyone who, I mean, maybe one person, but they're like, yeah, because people will think, oh, oh, they think they're so important or how dare they like themselves or be proud All of it is them. All of it is about what they think. And human connection, I mean, I'm good at like two things. And what I'm good at, I'm really good at. And most things I'm not.

1:27:44But connection is my superpower. And I don't care why the reason is. I just know it is. And I do know that it's been exacerbated by my deafness. But to me, that community is where I find God, connection. and that's everything. And so it is important to share because, and the fact that people find it so revolutionary and courageous makes me wanna do it more because it's like, wow, just like, because you're not supposed to do that or what will they think or all the things, you know? And I think a world of more people unapologetically being who they are and shining their light as it were, how magnificent and magical would that be?

1:28:34It's weird that it's a revolutionary act to say, I'm gonna give myself permission to do this or I get to have love and I don't need anybody else to tell me whether I'm worthy or not. Like all of these are ideas that are, it's a common struggle for lots and lots of people. and you've been able to navigate them. You're sharing your story. You've changed your life in certain ways, but - But I don't have it figured out. No, so this is what I'm saying. Like, it's all messy. You know, change is hard. It's nuanced. It's not linear. You know, it's up and down. It's just this pastiche. And, you know, every day you gotta start over again.

1:29:14Everyone. And like appreciating that and not saying, here are the steps and here's how you can do it. But within that, you're somebody who has gone from a person who thought change would kill you, like that's the last thing I'm ever gonna do, to being able to navigate change. And I think everybody on some level wants to make a change in their life. They know they could be a little bit better or they aspire to something. And because we're human, we struggle and we fall down and we misstep. So what can you say to the person who is in that struggle? Who is suffering, who's trying, but having a hard time with this?

1:29:54Like, what is it that distinguishes the person who can say, I'm going to stand up for myself and I'm gonna walk through the flames and confront my fear and try to do something on my own behalf. Versus the person who remains prisoner to their fear or struggles and continues to go back to what feels safe. It's funny that you said, I think everyone wants to change. I would have fought you before in that. I'd be like, no, I don't, never. But deep down, we all want something, right? And maybe we see a better version of ourselves, whether we do anything about that is a different matter. But I think on some level, or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

1:30:36There's a part in the book where I was talking about my ex and my marriage And I said, hold up. If you're about to like go off on going, why did she, you know, she's just some memoirist who went to the navel gaze and she was in a fine marriage. And of course it's worse than I think. No one's thinking about me at all. But I said - I like how that's worse. I mean, it's true. I think we can all get ourselves in check more often. Like I'm always like, get over yourself, John. Or like Eleanor Roosevelt, about you wouldn't worry so much about what people thought of you when you realize how seldom they actually do.

1:31:13But I said, before you start trying to figure out why, because there's no outward bruises, because it looked fine, I wanted to. My want is enough. And when I said that, it felt like I got goosebumps, and I, oh, your want is enough. And again, I'm not talking about dangerous things that hurt other people intentionally or yourself. But I mean, like, you know, you want to write, but you're afraid, you want to leave, you want whatever, your want is enough. And if we remember that, or it really goes back, I get to have this. So it's unpacking what is it that your inner asshole or whatever you call it, you know, find what resonates for you is telling you, you don't get to have that rich.

1:32:01Who do you think you are? You think you get to have reciprocity or ease or love? it's not true. And it's like, my tattoo says, I got you. And you might be like, well, you're full of shit. You don't really know me in person. It doesn't matter. Because A, your people are out there if you stay open, but you are held. And I don't mean that in any kind of like airy, fairy, even religious way, but you are. And I thought change would kill me. No, did it hurt? Yes. it's if you are willing to stop lying to yourself that is the ultimate game changer the ultimate one because once you do and you get honest and then and then you ask now what even if it's the tiniest thing even if it's like well I'm gonna the first now what is just imagining it and then but it's the denying our wants denying what is so and i'm queen of that oh if i don't say that i'm i can't hear out loud it doesn't exist you know so willing to be honest with yourself and then but it's it's i think being self-aware is overrated because if there isn't and you know this from recovery because if there's not a now what But yeah, big deal.

1:33:23I knew why I did what I did. Yeah, self-awareness will avail us nothing as it is said in the rooms. Man, I thought I made it up. There's the want, the want to be better, to do something different. And then there's the doing of it. And there's a big gap in between want and do, right? How do we bridge the gap? Okay, and so what is in the middle, and you said it in my mind, this is how I think about this. Tell me if you agree. in the middle is this thing called willingness. And willingness is a freak. A freak? Yeah. Like freaking the sheets? Basically, because willingness. Why did I just say freaking the sheets?

1:34:03Willingness is this weird force of nature that you can't really summon. It's almost like a visitation. Like, are you willing? Are you willing? Like, what are you willing to do? I mean, Rich, you're in my brain, get out. Willingness is different from want or desire. It's like, what are you actually going to do? And you can be willing to be willing, but on some level, and I've said this before, like that's sort of like saying, that's sort of like asking somebody to want something they don't actually want. Because if you're not willing, you're not gonna do it. But we have these moments of willingness.

1:34:45Like when your husband said, that's life, Suddenly the seas parted and you had this visitation of willingness that you would never have before. But the key you said it is moments of, moments of. So I think willingness visits us in those moments. And then we're faced with having to make a decision to grab onto it and channel it into action. But if we don't and we let the moment pass, the willingness kind of dissipates and goes back into the atmosphere. here. So I bought my house because I read a book called The Big Leap that changed my life by Gay Hendricks. And of course, because the universe, you know, they're my neighbors and they're like my best friends now because that's the universe.

1:35:31But Katie Hendricks will say to me, are you willing to expand your capacity for and whatever it may be? And she's not trying to teach me, but just by who she is, modeling who she is, it rubs off on me. But I love that question. So let's say expansiveness or financial, whatever it may be. And I love that because it forces me to reckon with, huh, am I willing? And I got to look at that. So again, with the intentionality, yes, willingness can come, you know, like a divine moment. And again, the moment thing is important to me because I get trapped with like, for the rest of my life, I will instead of today.

1:36:16But what if we wake up and consciously commit to that? Now we might fail at it, but we get to begin again with a new breath. But what if you get like, okay, am I willing to expand my capacity for financial abundance, let's just go with that. And, you know, whatever it is to reckon with and then shift it into a conscious commitment, which starts with a now what, but also it starts with what we're saying to ourselves. Does that make sense or no? Yeah, I think so. I think I would translate that into saying that, yes, there are these, you know, parting of the seas moments, you know, lightning flashes and you know, you - Feels like divine.

1:37:07Suddenly you have superhuman powers all of a sudden, right? But on the daily, we're never totally without willingness. It's just that willingness is at a lower hum. And so the question becomes in the moment, in the day, like, what am I actually willing to do right now? I love it. So when your husband says, that's his life, you weren't willing to put your foot down and say, I'm leaving right now. Well, I said, how about a separation? Sure. But I didn't actually. But you put words to it, but what did your feet actually do, right? But you could say, well, I'm gonna journal my thoughts about this while they're fresh.

1:37:49Which I very much did not. Or I'm just saying like on a basic level, like there's always something you are willing to do. Yeah. And I think when you indulge that willingness and actually translate it into action, then you're basically, you know, opening the portal for more willingness to take the next step. So it's about action. Yes, but also it goes back to being honest with yourself because so I have, I'm allowed tattooed on me and I have people make a grocery list and I say grocery list because it's not good, it's not bad is what it is. I want you to write down what you're allowing in your life.

1:38:24And some of the things are gonna make you feel like a rockstar and some are gonna be like, Like, for example, I allow myself to say no. I allow myself to sleep late. I allow myself to look at my phone and compare myself to other people and feel like shit. Right? See what I'm saying? And so then I say, circle the ones that are intentional. The willing is the same thing. It's about being honest with yourself. So going, am I willing? And really, really being honest with yourself. And then if you go, no, but I'm walking around like acting like I am or pretending, that's the reckoning. So it's being honest with yourself.

1:39:04And if you're not willing, that's okay too. Stop saying you are, maybe. But being honest with yourself. But making a conscious commitment. Because I do think, and if you're not willing, unpack it. What are you willing? And notice I didn't put anything after that because I love just the word. Are you willing? You said, if we wanna transform anything, it's essential to go beyond the face of things or how they seem to appear, especially with regard to ourselves, which is basically a way of saying we have to be rigorously self-honest. Yes. and that doesn't mean that, especially if you have a lot of followers on Instagram that you have to tell everyone everything.

1:39:54Like, you know, when I bought my house, I swear people would be like, can you point me to the post where you talked about when you bought your house? You know, I'm not kidding. Same with my marriage. And so sometimes there's a, I got a letter in the mail. Someone found my address and sent me a letter before I publicly announced I was leaving and because it was no one's business yet. and it was written like a ransom letter. It was like, you know, made fun of me, my quote. It said, may I have the courage to be who I say I am. And it's like, whoa, I don't owe anyone to explain myself. I won't hide in shame and I will do my damnedest not to lie to myself anymore.

1:40:35And that's it. That's pretty good. I fail at that sometimes, but. What is the main idea that you want people to take away from your story and this book? Yeah, you know, I'm so bad at decisions unless it's deciding beforehand, like it's not gonna work or it's gonna be hard. But so these questions like, oh my God, there's so many, but proof of life really is, after I sold the book about a year later, I looked around with a panic attack and I was like, I haven't written it. I haven't even started it. I've done nothing. I have no money. I haven't even filed for divorce. What have I done? And I was like hyperventilating.

1:41:19A year after you sold the book? Yeah. Can I have that gift I gave you? What? The blue, the thing? Yeah. Yeah. My friend Emily McDowell made the, this is my quote, but she made this. It says, when I get to the end of my life, my son likes to chant it. And I ask one final, what have I done? Let my answer be, I have done love. You know, at the newsroom, I had a breakdown a hundred years ago because I thought I was going to be a scholar, a poet in academia. And I'm there with my apron, with a veggie burger in my hand. And I was like, what have I done? Like 10 years in. And later it dawned on me, you've done love.

1:41:58So a year after I sold the book, I looked around and I'm like, what have I done? And I caught myself. That is the key. I caught myself with, because I was like, I have nothing to show for it. I have nothing to show for myself. I was saying that in my head. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. I don't have to show shit. I am my own proof of life. I've done love. Look at all the paintings I made. I did the scariest thing and it didn't kill me. I fell in love. I nurtured relationships. I ended one. Screw that idea that we, look how worthy I am. Look, see, this proves it. and I think a lot of people, you know, and I do my best not to, we live in a way where we feel that we have to prove somehow, like there is something and there is nothing, not a damn thing that you can hold in your hand that, you know, I said in my TED Talk, everything that's weird and wonderful and magical about you is invisible, you know?

1:43:02I mean, not everything, your beard's pretty great, But it's like, you can't, oh, look, I'm worthy. See, my podcast is number one. No. And so I have to remember that. And therefore I'm not like someone who's figured it out. I'm just sharing my shit. I have to remember that all the time. I am my own proof of life. Simply by virtue of me being born, I'm worthy. I get to have this, meaning I do get to be happy. My birthright is not stress. My birthright is not shame. My birthright is not hustle. so it's that it's you are your own proof of life that's really beautiful and powerful it's also exactly what i need to hear oh how funny yeah amazing yeah i mean i i'm very conscious of is it because i said your podcast is number one no no no no far from that it's actually the opposite it's the idea that i look around and i'm very proud of like this thing that I've created in this life that I've built.

1:44:06But I'm also very aware that so much of the motivation came from this deep need to be loved and seen. And the idea - Oh, you're so vulnerable. That's vulnerable. The idea that like, that I'm not entitled to it, that I have to earn it. And the only way to earn it is to like distinguish myself and, you know, do something that people will pay attention to. So it's a little boy in the corner who's like, please love me, please love me and pay attention to me. That's the wounding at the core of it. And I would have to imagine is beneath a lot of people who are ambitious and go out into the world and do big things.

1:44:49And it's challenging because my life is great and I'm very happy and I'm so proud of this thing. I love what I do. I'm so happy to hear you say that, yeah. But also I'm aware of the motivational, like antecedents of the whole thing. And the idea that I don't have to do this in order to be loved. Has it shifted the motivation? It is in the shifting phase. Thank you for your honesty. Have I overcome it? No. No, I don't think we have. I mean, the idea of overcoming is like, I work with women who've lost children. I scholarship them to my retreat and you don't ever get over it. It's like, you know, but it really moved me when you said that because, yeah, I mean, that's like, I used to say I wanted to be an actress and I literally waited at the host stand of the newsroom to be discovered and people laugh and it's like, oh, you think I'm kidding?

1:45:41Also, I wasn't discovered, but I was waiting for someone to love me. But then I got even deeper and I was like, no, I was waiting for someone to tell me, it's not your fault and you're not bad and you can stop hating yourself. And, but at the end of the day, and like, I have to have compassion because yes, I do have that hole in me. And so there is a part of me that's like, do you love me now? Do you love me now? And like, see, it's, I'm never going to get it no matter what. That's fallen lovable though. The fact that you shared that, like, that's what makes me fall in love with a person. I don't mean that like sexually just like, I want to put you in my pocket, but you're so tall.

1:46:19and I share it because may I remember and I have to remember every day and especially right now, right before the book and every possible thing is coming up. That's like, no, of course you don't get to have that, Jen. You don't get to have that. And can you navigate the book release and all the stuff that comes with that from a place of joy and gratitude rather than like, you know, refreshing your Amazon page. Yes, and. And what does this mean? And like, you know, how are people perceiving me and all of the unhealthy aspects of it? Yes, and, is that fair? I mean, yes. And like my friend, Shauna Mann, who took her life, she wrote a beautiful book novel called, Oh, You Pretty Things.

1:47:11And in the book, the best friends would call each other boof. so we would call each other Booth and her book came out before my last book and she would say Booth I've been here before enjoy every part of this every moment even the this part and lately she's just with me so much I hear her and she used to also say Booth your brand is truth and she would also say I'm polarizing like cilantro She was so funny, but yes, and so absolutely. I'm in joy, I'm proud. And I have a thing called give yourself a medal. And like, even being, after I did the audio book, I was like, besides the typos I found on brand, I was like, I'm really proud.

1:48:05And I realized how uncommon that is for people like you're not supposed to say that. And so owning that and joy, but the and, and I won't lie about the and part. You shouldn't lie. You shouldn't lie. Should is an asshole, I know. Oh, I know, that's, I use the word should, you know, that was on my list of things to ask you, like this idea of should being an asshole. I should myself a lot. If you could see what I see, there's an exercise I do to, this is, I am glad I remember this, to ground myself, So I remember, I think of someone. So right now, think of someone who loves you, living or dead, like really loves you.

1:48:48And, you know, you can close your eyes or if you're like me and you don't and really, really visualize them. And I hate the word should, but if you're doing it, it should feel good, safe, right. And then you walk out of the house carrying that. But I like things that are tangible. So then write a letter in their voice. So it requires imagination. Dear Rich, and it starts like this. If you could see what I see. And then you write it in their voice. So it's a letter to yourself. In the voice of someone who loves you. But not from yourself, but in the voice. Well. You're putting yourself in the shoes of someone who.

1:49:31You jumped ahead. Who cares for you. Okay, Rich, just write the sentence. No, go ahead. Come on, dear rich, do it. I'm all bossy, do it. Dear rich, and then you write, if you could see what I see. So imagination is so underrated. So you're visualizing one of your children, your dead, whoever, like, you know, if you could see what I see and then everything they would say and you imagine it in their voice and often people cry as they're writing it. And then I say, when you finish, I need you to write this PS. P.S. I wrote this with my own hand. So it's what I already know, comma, but may have forgotten.

1:50:14And then I'm like, carry it around like a talisman. I have people read it out loud in my workshops if they want to. Nine times out of 10 people cry. Sometimes it's because the person's dead and they miss them. but most of the time they cry because there's a chasm between this on the paper, how this person who loves them, see them and how they're walking about the world, talking to themselves, you know, and they start to cry and, and it's, it's wild to see. And so it's like, how do we bridge the gap? And so, you know, that's just another tool, You know, for me, it's like whatever works. I carry my dad's, you know, this like, I call it his Jewy necklace.

1:51:00It's like his thing he wore. And it's like a little towel, whatever works. But that letter is a reminder. Of course you wrote it. But if you give yourself permission, if you're willing, you write it in their voice. It is so moving. And then you go, it is what you know. They didn't crawl in your body and write it. And that's wild. So if you could see what I see, and may we all have people that reflect that back to us rather than like reflect back to us that we suck. The emotions around that are also because there's a recognition of its truth. Absolutely. And what? What? And forget the why, but wow, I am not living in accordance with that truth or walking around with that as if it is so.

1:51:53You know, like if you could see what I see and they read all these things and I'm like, whoa, isn't that a mind fuck? You actually wrote that with your own hand. And they're like, huh?

1:52:05It's great though. But if you could see what I see, you know. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. In your what? In your pipe and smoke it. Yeah. I swear if I'm going to write a book called The Things I Mishear, I mishear everything. And, you know, it's like the thing about the hearing loss you asked in the very beginning was like, I. Some days are a pity party. I try to have a sense of humor. Sometimes I fail. But if I didn't, I wouldn't get out of bed. But group settings, forget it. I feel so stupid all the time. Really? Yeah. Logically, shame is not logical. Logically, I know I'm not, but you try sitting around and not understanding anything anyone's saying.

1:52:49When I went to Jeff Krasner's thing, when I sat next to your beautiful wife, the room would laugh and I would laugh and I wasn't faking it, but I had no idea why I'm laughing. And then that starts a shame cycle. And like, I mean, it's awful. It's awful. So then I avoid and I, you know, and sometimes I take one for the team and I'll go to a group dinner. and if it seems like I'm checking out, it's because I am or looking at my phone because it's, first of all, it's exhausting, but it's like being in a foreign country, you know? And, oh, world's smallest violin, you know, everyone has something, but it's, I don't know, it's very lonely.

1:53:28And because I'm between two worlds, I'm not capital D deaf. I don't exist in deaf culture. I don't know ASL. I rely on hearing aids and lip reading. it's like I'm like in the mezzanine. Yeah. But I think that's why I rely a lot on sense of humor, not to bypass, but because Jesus Christ, I wouldn't get out of bed otherwise. Yeah. But that's good self-awareness because if you're good at humor, it becomes this - Am I? I think you're funny. Yeah. You're like, you baited me right into that. If you're good at humor, then it becomes an easy self-defense mechanism to like keep people at bay and not have to look at your shit because you can always, you have this weapon, this tool where you can deflect everything.

1:54:22You're right. And also I say now I lead with the thing that causes me shame. So I'm not like suggesting if someone's been sexually assaulted, they walk in a room, but I would never tell people. And sometimes it gets exhausting and I forget to say, hey, I'm deaf, I lip read. But now I lead with that so that I don't spend an hour pretending, feeling stupid, all the things. And it's so empowering and it's freeing and it's just, it's incredible. And that's shame loss too. So I walk in and right off the bat and I go, by the way, I'm gonna mishear a lot, but it's funnier what I hear, so. Which is exactly what you said when you walked in.

1:55:03I did. And I, and I, I mean, literally, I don't know, like, I probably like heard 30 % of what you said in the rest. I just like nodded. No, but, but this is easy. We're in a contained setting. I'm still working very hard. I'm focused. I'm working. But oh my God, if it's like, like that night at Jeff's, I heard like one thing he said, but a friend of mine who is, is brilliant playwright named Jez Butterworth. I went and saw his play Jerusalem with Holt McAllenie and I felt ashamed because Holt has the loudest laugh. I love you, Holt. And I would laugh along and I didn't hear any, like I couldn't make out the dialogue.

1:55:45And at the end of the play, I was weeping. And I was like, what the fuck? And Jez, who's like our greatest living playwright, said something that fascinated me because I wouldn't have thought. But he said, it's not about the words anyway. It's about the rhythms. that was such a gift because he was right. That's why I was crying. That's why I went to Jeff's knowing that I wouldn't be able to make out, but it's about the rhythms or however you want to translate, but I felt it. I still want to make out dialogue quite often, but when he said that, it's about the rhythms. But I wonder if you're not tuning into people on a even deeper level because the fact that you can't hear them, you're focused on - I hear, I can't make it out.

1:56:33Okay, so there's noises happening. Noise. On some level, but you're paying attention to body language, expressions, and you're noticing things that when we're just paying attention to what people are saying, we're not really focusing on. Absolutely. And so there's probably more information that you're gathering - 100%. than the normal human who's just listening and not really like paying attention to the visual field. You're a hundred percent. And like I said, in the beginning, I've tapped more into that and more into that. And yeah, and even stuff that's not even body language, even stuff that's like, I don't know, I'm going back to my yoga training, subtle body, just energy, what have you.

1:57:18In my workshops that don't, I don't necessarily do so much yoga anymore, but a lot of times people are on yoga mats because I want to get them more in their body, less hear. There's a group and I have to get really close. So I say, I'm going to come over and like sit in your lap. You know, I don't do that, but I get very close. It can be intimidating and scary, but ultimately it's like people have never felt so heard. But let me tell you, if I was a typical hearing person, ain't no way I'd be doing that. Because A, Space Invader, I mean, you know, but because of that gift. now it's not like immediately like I'm deaf it's a gift but I'm able now to be like holy wow that's amazing you know I would have never like I crawl over on my butt and I get really close because I have to but the gift in that is that that intimacy that connection what people the way people feel heard in a way like because this weirdo is in their face because she has to be um so I think there are some gifts in it and it's also frustrating as hell a lot.

1:58:27Well, ultimately, all we really want is to be seen, right? That's what I said in the beginning when I sat down. For you to be like hyper present with someone and really, you know, connecting with them, if not, you know, verbally is a nourishing feeling that, you know, makes us feel connected. Yeah, and unless, you know, some people it terrifies them until it doesn't. Right, it's scary. Don't come too close. Well, I mean, come on, you know. You might see the version of them that they're trying to hide, right? That's the scary thing. Rich, I never used to look people in the eye. Like you would not recognize me.

1:59:06And I don't just mean like with sex, like because forget it, I never ever opened my eyes. I mean, yeah, I said what I said. I didn't, I, until like Henry. So I mean people, like I would like, you know, and one time a million years ago, I did something called the Landmark Forum, which I'm sure you know what it is. Yeah, of course. Then I did the advanced course. And then we were on stage and we had a lineup and I was next to this sweet guy. I can't think of his name. And he was across from me and we just had to do this eye contact thing, which I do in my workshops a lot. And there was like hundreds of us and I'm on stage.

1:59:42He's across from me. and it's like this is something I don't do and I started hyperventilating and crying like somebody told me my mom had just died and I had to run off the stage and I was so embarrassed and I mean but crying like like I mean like you really think someone was murdered or and I mean I and it really really got clear to me that I never let anyone look at me because I was afraid they would see that I was a bad person. I'm so proud now that I can be with it. I can be with someone seeing me. and allow it. Let's end with imagining the person who's struggling right now, who feels stuck, who's terrified of making eye contact with someone else, who knows that perhaps there's a different life available, but is paralyzed to make a change.

2:00:46And the prospect of writing a letter to themselves in the voice of someone who cares for them, like that's too big a leap. Like, where does this person start? Assuming they have some iota of willingness to do something, like where should that person place their attention and what would be your counsel on like where to go from there? It's gonna sound like such a cliche, but the first thing I thought when you said where to go from there is like, there's nowhere to go. That's it. I spent my life going, leaving my body any way I could. and like for the first time stay, which is the hardest thing for me.

2:01:29I didn't even remember this and I saw I wrote it down and there's a part in the book where he said, Charlie asked mommy, do the trees stay awake at night? And I'm so glad I wrote it. And a friend heard and answered, why no, Charlie, they sleep, of course. It's very tiring holding up the sky. and um and so toward the end of the book I said you can rest you don't have to hold up the sky anymore you get to allow and I'm purposely not putting anything after that word because it's so powerful you know and to really sit with without shame what you are allowing in your life And if you look at it and you want to cringe, don't use it as an opportunity to beat yourself up.

2:02:20That's old hat. Instead of like, wow, you get to allow for joy, for intimacy, for whatever it is. And if you're like, well, I don't know how, wonderful. Go discover. You get to do that. And, you know, I think I know a lot of us feel like we're cooked by a certain age, which is why when I started painting and I have no idea what I'm doing, people are like, well, how do you know what paint to use? I don't. I do whatever I want. And people, I could never do that. They're not willing to explore, to play. And so it's about discovering and allowing for that. you know allowing for you get to have a life that lights you up and if you don't know what lights you up go find what lights you the fuck up and instead of being overwhelmed by it which is what I do get excited by it like okay cool and you're not too old or too late that's bullshit find what excites you and what doesn't you get to have a life that lights you up.

2:03:32And I'm not talking about privilege because I am privileged. We are, you know, I'm talking about just by virtue again of you being born. You do. And whatever story is like, you have to earn it, Rich. You got to earn it. You got to earn your rest. You got to earn it. You get to have a life that lights you up. And if you don't know what it is, go find it. Thank you. That was really beautiful. you're very beautiful I appreciate the openness that you that you brought to this experience today it's very meaningful to me I'll have a vulnerability hangover on the way to lunch but you know it's gonna be dinner soon no way gotta make it to the airport proof of life you're gonna want to read this book pick it up wherever you buy your fine books we did it how do you feel I feel did we do it right We did it more than right.

2:04:31Okay. And we did it. I want to make sure you're happy. I'm so happy. And what I wanted to say was though, I did a nutty thing, which is I'm giving away a spot to my Italy retreat, which is four grand. Can I afford it? No, but I know I'll be taken care of. And if people buy 10 copies, if you want to buy 10 copies from an indie bookstore, and I love it because it supports an independent booksellers, which are a dying breed. And it excites me because I'm doing that and people are buying from indie bookstores. I'm going to pick the winner July 8th. But a few people have bought it to donate it were they to win and I'll gift the retreat spot to a woman who's lost a child.

2:05:12Oh, wow. So I know for a lot of people,$300, like if you're trying to keep the lights on, not for you. But there's such a, you know, vast landscape with finances and there's people with$300. It's like, yeah, not a thing. So it's win-win to me because you're supporting an indie bookstore, you're supporting me. And I believe you're supporting yourself because you get to see the I got you effect works and hopefully believe you get to have that too. Amazing. So I assume you're gonna go on tour with the book. is there a way for people to find out where you're going to be doing events and stuff? Where do I direct the audience?

2:05:53Yeah, they can, I mean, they can throw a rock and find me, but Instagram, Jen Pasteloff. My sub stack is the same title of my book because I'm either really smart with SEO or very lazy with naming, proof of life, or jenniferpasteloff.com. Yeah, so I'm excited. I'm doing something with Anne Lamont, which is a very like pinch me moment. She's the best. and Maggie Smith and Henry's coming on tour with me, like next week in Pasadena, he's in conversation with me. Nice. And you've got Anne Lamott, an Anne Lamott blurb on the cover. I sure did, Rich Roll. That's insane. And please note that she mentioned humor, which for a self-help book, to me, there's nothing worse than like, this is so precious and it takes itself so seriously.

2:06:44So that was like, oh, thank you. You know, it gives a wink to the reader. Like, yeah, right. It's not gonna be too douchey, you know? A not too douchey self-help book. I mean, there's moments, I'm sure, someone would be like, not douchey, but not too douchey. Right, not too douchey. I'm not saying it's entirely without douche. Yeah, but, you know. A light dusting of douchiness. No, but really, like, what a gift. I do think anyone who takes himself too seriously, I just, I'm not interested. It's so boring. And so it's, I just, I do, I feel like it's a, it's a little like a, what do you call that?

2:07:25Like when you give someone a signal, it's a signal. Like when you write humor on a self-help book, you're in good hands, I think. But I'm biased. But I think. I think you're on the right track. Awesome. Thanks for doing this. Thank you. Say hi to my wife for me. and let me know how I can be of service.

2:07:53That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful.

2:08:33This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor.

2:09:13And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:09:35Thank you.