Psychiatrist Phil Stutz Knows What’s Wrong With You & Has The Tools To Fix It

32:31And they can't ever catch up. So if you watch them in a hospital, they're moving very fast. And instead of writing down their diagnoses, they have to put it into a computer. Now, they would say, well, it's just efficient. And it is more efficient, but it's also less human. And my whole trip is not be a nice person, be more. That's not my thing, because it won't work. My thing is you've got a power and a potential. and if you want to exercise it and find out what it is, and that's when you find out what it is, you have to be willing to go into the unknown. This becomes useless. And you have a question about if you did give yourself over to it, what would happen?

33:20And it may be more what would happen to your fear of what would happen to other people. I don't even know so much if the fear is what would happen to you. but if I was treating you and don't get any ideas I would try see there's this thing called the world of small things and if you want to change somebody in this area where they have to let go it's better for them to practice in the smallest thing the smallest little piece of it and then hopefully you can expand it more culture I should say just imagine that all the success and everything was taken away from you suddenly unexpectedly forget about why or how it was taken away but now you're naked and tell me what what you see is there something about you that becomes more apparent Can you tell me?

34:25Yeah, it's a couple things. I mean, one, it's certainly scary because I do have an attachment to what I do. And so it feels very much like a threat to take that away. Who am I if not for the things that I do? How will I be perceived like an unhealthy relationship with like extrinsic opinion, like who am I without this thing? A sense of uselessness or inconsequence if I don't have this, but also at the same time, relief. I don't have to hold up something. Yeah. But I know what you're getting at, which is you are worthy just for who you are and your worthiness or your deservedness to be loved or to love yourself has nothing to do with what you do.

35:25Ultimately, it has nothing to do with it, yeah. Can you think of a time in your life where the dynamic was shifted a little bit? Because there's like a master up there. I don't know what the word for it is. It's like a cosmic boss. And I don't sense that you're scared of him. but I sense you're looking to serve him, but you're looking at it for the wrong person. Or it's not really a person. Well, I have an answer to that. I don't know if that answer is a story or it's truth, but I've lived a couple different lives. But as a young person, I was definitely a very insecure, lonely, sensitive kid who struggled to make friends and really couldn't figure out how to plug into the world like that thing that you hear in AA, like everyone had a roadmap for life and I felt like I was lacking.

36:24And I found sport through swimming as a young person that gave me an outlet in something that I had some facility for and I got good at that and I got self-confidence from that and that spilled into the classroom because I wasn't a very good student and became a very competent young person and got into all the fancy colleges and competed in swimming at a high level. Then alcoholism destroyed all of that and took everything away from me and took me to some pretty dark places where my only companion was like shame, guilt, embarrassment. And I got sober and rebuilt my life, but tried to plug back into the machine.

37:06But that was always a square peg trying to jam into a round hole until I had an existential crisis over what I was doing with my life that also coincided with a health scare. And then I basically proceeded to reinvent my life again. And I found this thing that has given me meaning, but ultimately a sense of purpose and fulfillment because I get to give it back. Like what we're doing here, we get to share. Yeah, we get to share it. And I've written books, et cetera, and other things. But like this thing that we're doing, it's nourishing to me, but it's also an act of service that is helpful to other people.

37:44And that's given me a sense of purpose and direction that's very meaningful to me that has a spiritual component to it. Because on some level it's intangible and it's also not something I planned. It was something that resulted from my own spiritual inquiry. It's an outgrowth of that. So it feels very healthy in that regard. But then as it becomes more successful, the ego enters the picture. And I start thinking about, well, what's the other podcaster doing? And how come mine isn't like this? And what if we do this and we can grow and be bigger? So all of that, we live in a capitalist society and this is a business.

38:23So part of that is just being an entrepreneur and being smart in terms of how we're directing this business. But fundamentally at its core, this is a spiritual enterprise. And I try to hold onto that and not let those other things, the trappings, interfere with the essence of what this is. Okay. And maybe that's honest, and maybe you can point out to me where I'm missing the bigger picture or where I'm caught up in my own story. I don't like to do that, I'll be honest. I like to see where you are now, see the gut level instinct that you have to where you need to go and then teach you to identify where the obstacle is and then teach you what to do in the smallest terms possible because you're fighting something.

39:20But before we get into that, here's the dilemma of the human race. Everybody, there's no going backwards with this. Everybody wants to be an individual and they want to be recognized as an individual and they want to have some props and a lot of times it's money, but not always. And that's necessary. So that's a singular individual set of goals. They will never satisfy you unless you have the opposite awareness and the opposite goal, which is to enhance the group or the collective. So, and see, everybody thinks it has to be one or the other. It can't be one or the other. It has to be both. And there's only one way you can take the individual and the collective and not have them clash with each other.

40:11And that way, I studied Rudolf Steiner. Do you know anything about him? Yeah. Okay. He's the Waldorf guy. Yeah. So he said, there's only one way you can make a freely willed decision, and that's the individual self, free will, and at the same time fit into the group, which is the opposite of that. And he said that solution is sacrifice. But you have to choose to sacrifice. It's simply choosing to have faith. If you choose to have sacrifice, but you don't have to choose it, but in a freely-willed sense you choose it, then you've both. So because you've chosen it, then that means there's an individuality to it.

41:00I decide to do this. But at the same time, because you're choosing to sacrifice, you're automatically giving something to the group. And this is a little abstract, but it's really the whole thing I've developed is so that you can be in the middle and straddle those two opposites. Yeah, those opposites can live in concert with each other. Like, I feel like I've found a way to do that with this thing. But I think to your point of finding meaning and finding purpose, like your whole thing is like, if someone comes to you and they're like, I got my bills paid, but like, I don't feel like I have a purpose or I'm unfulfilled in my career or I don't know what I'm doing.

41:48The answer to that question isn't a philosophical one as much as it is an action-oriented one. And the only way to figure out that for yourself is to make decisions, to take actions and to move forward. And to the extent that you can, we all have something to give and something to offer. We all have our own unique experiences. And when you can tether what you've learned along your path, your life path to something that is helpful to somebody else, I mean, you characterize it as sacrifice, but it's really just service, right? Can you find a channel or a vehicle to give back in some way, that's the path to fulfillment.

42:25And that is an action-oriented path. And if you can, you know, I have the incredible rare, you know, situation or gift where I can marry that with a business enterprise, you know? So, which is like an incredible, you know, it's just, I can't believe I get to do this thing that I love that actually has a service piece to it, but actually can support my family. It's just a remarkable set of circumstances that I wish everybody could have. But I think in some way, everybody can find a way to tether those two things in a way that gives them a sense of meaning and that satisfaction that comes with whatever small sacrifice it is.

43:06But that's anathema to the incentives of our culture, which is all about me, me, me, right? And in truth, all these things that we're lacking and that we're seeking are on the other end of sacrifice and service, which those are kind of edicts that are at odds with the incentivization structure of like modern culture. Yeah, and you know who the devil is? Who's that? The devil is the one that says, give me$22 and you won't be subject to this whole thing. The opt-out, my program, Here are the 10 things you can do, and you won't have to worry about all this stuff that everybody else who's in human form has to deal with.

43:47You know what I was thinking when I was driving up here? I was thinking this is gonna be a thing about, I thought it was gonna have a veneer of depth and what was the term? And meaning, but it really, it was just, what do you call it, a sheep? What is that? A wolf in sheep's clothing? I was going to try to get you? What do you mean? Yeah, I'm going to sell you this thing, and it's going to exonerate you from these unpleasant things. And in the exoneration of it, you'll actually think that you're creating real meaning. So the question is, and you're not. It's like eating plastic food. and here's my metric for this.

44:42Human beings are at their best in a crisis and the worse the crisis is, the more important it is. I almost, when I, I don't really work anymore, but when I used to work, I would like skip, I was the opposite of all these shrinks. I would say, what caused this? I would say, fuck everything except the worst crisis you ever went through in your life. and what you find yourself able to do in that crisis is a mark or a leading edge towards if you want to say human potential that's when you really find out what humans are capable of but the other thing that you know you may find this dogmatic but i still don't think anybody can do this successfully without some higher force, even if they don't know exactly what it is.

45:34My wife calls that your divine moments, like don't rob people of their divine moments. When I look back over my life, those deep crises that I had to weather have been not just the greatest teachers, but really the launch pads for like all the growth and all the experiences that I've had as a result. It's like, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I also wouldn't trade it for anything else. And we have this instinct as empathetic, compassionate humans when we have a loved one or someone we care about who's going through something difficult to rush in and help them solve the problem. Whereas the gift might be to step aside and be an observer and say, I love you and I trust you to find your way through this because that experience can be the crucible for something beautiful and magnificent, but you have to allow that person to go through it, which can be painful when, because no one wants to see someone they care about having a difficult time.

46:44I'm just semi-crying because one of my nurses has a grandson who's 19, black, highly talented as a painter, like I think really talented. And he's raised by his grandmother, basically, and he's starting to fall backwards. Let me put it this way. This kid was 18 years old. They were at one of these clubs or something, and guns were drawn. Everybody ran away except this kid because his friend was shot. That's the kind of person he is. But he's starting to fall apart now. I'm going to see if I can talk to him today. Because of the experience of that trauma or other things? I think the trauma just clarified what was going on.

47:40His thing is, I'm not good enough. Like, you know, we all have that. But he has no fucking help, which brings up a whole other thing. And you're right. You know, the saddest thing is, you know, you personally can't really save the person from that. Anyway, he made an attempt, a couple of attempts. And I know the talent because people are walking into my house all the time. And it's like the talent is like a trick someone's playing on because he knows he has the talent too. But something, you know, it's funny. on a different level, it's what you're going through. It's another version of it. The person has the talent, but something's stopping them.

48:28You're a little bit professorial, and you enjoy it and you're good at it. You understand what I mean by that? I think so. Keep going.

48:41I rest my case. See, your thing is not selfishness. It's the opposite of selfishness. See the good fortune where you have a job that also gives out to the world? Well, let me ask you something different. What is your wife's biggest complaint about you? What did you say? That I over-intellectualize and that I over-prioritize rationality and that I'm missing the gift of deepening my relationship with the beyond and that that becomes a barrier to deeper intimacy with her. And that because she's so more invested in that or perhaps mature in that regard, that it prevents me from seeing her or the desire to see her as she truly is.

49:45So that creates a disconnect in our relationship. Like we could have a deeper, more intimate bond if I would like relinquish my fear or the walls that I throw up around that terrain. You just have to face the fact though that your fears are going to manifest as power. I mean, people must have told you this before. You just have a natural aura of power. And it got a little bit, you abandon yourself. That's the best way to say it. Like I leveraged it to get to a point and then I abandoned it because everything sort of worked out. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that can be bad luck.

50:31See, the whole idea of what I try to train people is one of those unavoidables, endless work. And you have to, not only do you have to accept that, you have to act on it. And not only do you have to act on it, you have to ask yourself, how would I act on it today? Because whatever it is, I'm going to have to, that's why it doesn't matter whether it's success, failure. I have to stay on that level. that's called poverty like if you and I were working on something in the spiritual world and we worked hard we have a good working relationship all that stuff so we were satisfied and then we went to sleep when we woke up we'd have nothing that's called poverty and then you got to build it up again and again and again yeah that's a practice that requires diligence I think like in an AA context context and analogous or a way to kind of understand what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is this idea that you come in in so much pain and so broken and so raw that you have no other recourse other than to surrender, to ask for help, to receive help, and to develop a relationship with something bigger than yourself.

51:57You have a receptivity, But then you build that foundation of sobriety and you repair your life and then suddenly everything's fine and it becomes very difficult to maintain that relationship with spirituality. Like that surrender turns into a reclaiming of yourself well, and suddenly you think you're in control. And this is like a dilemma that I would admit to being part of. Like it's not that I don't understand the importance of these things, but it becomes harder to stay emotionally connected with that level of openness that I had when I was in a state of desperation. I'll tell you right now, the key to this whole thing is your wife because she's a tremendous ass.

52:50She would agree with you, yeah. She is, she is. Yeah, we were talking about it the other day, as a matter of fact. Now, that's not good enough, but it's good for you to know. Yeah, it doesn't mean that I've translated it into any action. So what do I do, Phil? What is the tool? What is the action step that I can take? Good question. There's a thing called a reverse indicator, which is an unpleasant feeling that says you're making progress. And the two classic reverse indicators are guilt and shame. so one of the things you're going to have to do is it's like I need to be in the reverse indicator space which is the unpleasant space so we'll try now, close your eyes for a second imagine that your wife is saying just what you mentioned before talking about you now let her insight like penetrate you like it like it's a force not not an idea like right in the solar plexa your heart good that's good what just happened i think there's a there's a knowingness that what she's sharing like the mirror that she's holding up to me is correct, but it's a reflection that I'm actively trying to avoid.

54:30And yet I know that that is the path that I need to take in order to continue to grow and expand. But it's so easy to stay in this place because everything is working really well. And so I don't feel the incentive or the, there's a lack of will to like entertain the, the difficulty of grappling with that, but also the understanding that I need to do that. So there's that tension, which creates dissonance and discomfort, but what I really mourn or what I really feel is the level of intimacy that I could experience with my wife that I'm lacking right now because I'm avoidant. Okay. In a case like this, which is not that unusual, what's unusual about you is the intensity of your will and the intensity of your intellect.

55:35And also, you're pretty intuitive. Maybe you don't have confidence in it, but that's pretty strong as well. It's almost like you've checked all the boxes, you're wildly successful, but in this particular area, you're holding your dick, and you feel impotence in this. Now, the way to correct that is thinking about it doesn't move in you. The only way that I know that you can deal with it is every time you feel that you don't want to be bothered with this, you don't think you can do it anyway, or sometimes maybe you have an issue with your wife, you want to look for those moments. And every time you find one of those moments, you have to dissolve your ego, even if it's just for a second.

56:37One way I do this, I tell people, it's called flying under the banner of ignorance. And, you know, it's like a joke because of these movies and everything. But I mean it. You know, when I say, do what I tell you, I don't care what you believe. It doesn't make any difference. We're opening up a different way of experiencing the world than of experiencing you. And the difference is it's a power that can't be defined in words. It comes back to the same thing. You have to trust your instincts. You trust them tremendously, except for this one area. But anyway, I want you to make sure you get this. Your job is, you know like those guys at the beach with those vacuum cleaners who try to pick up quarters?

57:31That's what you're doing. That's your job now. Only you're not trying to pick up quarters. is you're trying to identify those situations in which your intellect tries to take over. And it must happen with your wife, I would assume. Yeah, it certainly happens with my wife and the intellect can be a barrier and a effective tool in my avoidant strategy because my part X, my wife is saying, come closer, right? And my part X is telling me, if you show her who you really are, she's gonna divorce you. Like she's gonna, because you're fundamentally unlovable. That if she knew the real you, and so you can all erect a strategy to move close enough towards her, but just shy of any danger zone.

58:35Yeah. Yeah. And I would imagine that's a common, this is a common thing. No, you're the only person I've ever known.

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1:00:26Well, you've dumped a lot of shit on me too. Yeah, I know. I know you don't like it when people dump shit on you, but this is the life you signed up for. But let me go over this again for you. In order for you to actually do this, to really do it, because I don't give a fuck about anything else. Either you do it, and do it means whatever the barrier is, you break it, and on the other side of that barrier, you're going to find uncertainty. you're definitely going to find guilt. You'll find some confusion. And most of all, you're going to find the I don't know bit of it. I call it, I told you this, this is like flying under the banner of ignorance.

1:01:15So every time anything, first of all, anytime she says anything to you about yourself. but second of all when it comes up inside your spontaneously either way you have to it's like Clark Kent changing the very cool things fungles and you can't fake this you have to that's why the world of small things is so important you have to look for small events where you could capitulate to her. Not abstractly, not saying I agree. Forget about that. You have to actually do something. Now, there's two kinds of action. There's outer action, and there may be nothing to do. But there's also interaction, which is a tool.

1:02:15So every time, and when I say every time, I mean, every time this comes up in you, you have to change the dynamic with her. And most people think, well, it's not going to work because it's too passive. It's not big enough. And the trick in this kind of thing is, you know what you can even do? When she's telling you this stuff about yourself, try to literally, physically feel yourself shrink. in the most physical way possible. Because what you want to do is, you know, one tool is active love. Do you know that? Uh-huh. So, just for the audience, active love means, you imagine the universe is made out of love, and it's very important to think of love as a substance, because if it's a thought, you can argue about it, but as a substance, you can't.

1:03:16It's just out there. It's like some kind of substance coding everything. Anyway, the first step is you take all this love and you bring it right in here as if you could concentrate all love in the universe. You think love is a substance. You bring it in here. It's almost like the whole universe of love is living right here for a second. That's full concentration. The next step, you take the love you've concentrated and you send it to her. And you don't hold anything back. You give everything away to her. And then the most important part of the tool is it's almost, you're not just sending it to someone at a distance.

1:04:08You want to enter the other person and become one with them. But anyway, the point of it is you're trying to create a sense of wholeness by giving love away, even if you don't agree with the person. It has nothing to do with any kind of theory. Active love is a constant giving, and it can't be blocked. This part tries to block it because it's not up here. It's almost like a reflex. Right. I mean, it's a form of loving kindness. Yeah, yeah. But you're an athlete, you know. Is it like, there's a difference between saying, well, this is what I'm going to do today versus actually doing it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1:04:53The action part. Yeah, it's an action universe. I said that if a guy comes up with a philosophy in the modern world, not in the ancient world, and it doesn't end in action, it's no philosophy at all. the highest thing that defines the intrinsic qualities of being alive is instant I once had this vision for a second of the whole genesis of the universe and at the end of it you keep stripping the layers off finally at the end of it there's no physical bodies there isn't any individuality all there is is a voice. We know it's not coming from anywhere. It's like the universe was born for no apparent reason.

1:05:49The form in which it was born was a voice. And you can, that's in the Bible a little bit. It's like, why did God say, let there be light? Why would he have to say anything? He was God, you know? This voice or like pure consciousness is spiritual energy. The reductive nature of like trying to explain everything in terms of like dopamine and protocols for behavior, which are helpful and very action oriented, but miss the bigger picture, which is like the divinity of everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The bigger picture is you don't know shit within that. That's it.

1:06:37So we took a little break. You got a more comfortable chair. We had a whole podcast in the interim about divinity and meaning and all kinds of stuff. That also, a personal session for me, which I found very helpful. And I'm thinking about the reflection that you shared with me, only a few minutes into this podcast where I felt like you could see me and see things about me that only somebody who knows me deeply and for a long period of time would have been able to see. Like that acuity, like that insight that you have, is that a gift that you've always had? Did that just develop through spending time with so many people?

1:07:23No, I actually had it. I had it at birth. Your whole life. Yeah, I've had it in my whole life. It's like an extra sensory capability that you have. Yeah. And there is a divinity in that because it's non-material. It's an intangible thing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'll show you a picture of that. You want a picture? Yeah, I do. Always say yes. I want as many pictures as you can draw. Well, these aren't very intelligible. Okay. Yeah, it's a paradox. See, I think this might help you actually because it's a pictorial representation of what has to happen in any relationship, not just the spouse or romantic one.

1:08:18So let's say this is you and we'll put Julia over there. See, the most important thing in the next, I would say 50 years, is going to be human beings understanding the effect that they have on each other. And what I say is it's like anything else in nature. It really is not A over here and it's not B over there. The reality is it's somewhere in the middle. And even that middle point is moving back and forth. That's what it really means. It's a dynamic universe. Anyway, now, should I just shoot this over to you? Yeah, let me see that, let's see. Okay. So the first picture is me and Julie stick figures, arrow pointing from me to her and an arrow pointing from her to me in kind of a circular fashion.

1:09:11And then you drew another couple stick figures with arrows pointing upwards out of both of our heads towards what looks like a cloud or a circle. Yeah, and that's called the higher bond. The higher bond is real, even though you can't see it. It's not just a concept. And in a relationship, what you need is not, I'm going to go for my thing and you go for your thing. It's that each of us, we dissolve into the bottom line reality of our identity is this higher bond up here. and the higher bond is real, and this will help you with her. So your job is not to agree with her or disagree with her at any given point in the discussion.

1:10:03Your job is to say there's this thing up here, and my job is not directly related to my wife. It's related to this bond. It's beyond any one person. And it's so funny, you know, the romanticism of the West, especially in the United States, that says, like the whole marriage cult or whatever you want to call it, that says it was a singular person, namely the bride, is nothing. The relationship itself is this thing up here which forms a unity. And you can extrapolate that higher bond thing to groups. This is where something's going to happen to you. I don't know what it is yet, but I can feel it.

1:10:54You have a natural authority, and we don't want to get rid of that, but we don't want to misuse it either. So misusing it means I have all these talents and plus an authoritative presentation, and it's as if that's good enough, as it's not. So remember the thing I told you about the human dilemma is to have a singular goal, but at the same time contribute to the group and submit to the group? Well, that's true in a large group, but it's also true in a relationship. Okay, so how do you actually put that into effect? you put it into effect when when the flow is interrupted and the classic interruption is when the guy's wife says i i see you i know who you really are and the guy gets defensive see you have to see that whether you agree or disagree with every detail you have to view your wife and your presence or her presence either way is a structure that transcends either of you so you have to ask yourself what would i do that would put me in the upward arrow towards the higher bond not what would you over here you stepped on my foot pal you know that's non-contributory you can see it in geopolitics now but you have something to do how old are you 57 If on the way home, I discover what it is, I'll call you.

1:12:41Yeah, please do. That's super helpful though and comforting. And also just nice that I feel like I have a tool or a direction for behavior as opposed to just a broader understanding of the dynamic without an adequate sense of like how to shift it or what to do about it. Yeah, I can pretty much guarantee you when you understand something really well, she's getting pissed off. I mean, I know it sounds counterintuitive. But there's real beauty in that contrast. Like it is a one plus one equals far more than two, the dynamic. And I want that intimacy. I want that deeper connection. Of course I want that.

1:13:31But I get in my own way as I often do with many things. Yeah. If you're really serious about this, though, the key is work. And some of that actually is also writing. So I used to think writing was bullshit because there was no action. And then as I started to get older, I saw there are different kinds of ways to look at the same event. So what you have to do now, I'll show you another trick with this. what you have to do now is simultaneously experience both ends of that spectrum at the same time now i'll take you through it and you'll understand it better after we go through it okay so close your eyes now first i want you to think of yourself as somebody who's really angry if you can think of a time in your life when that was the case so much the better but the key is the feeling of it.

1:14:37Don't try to figure out what it is. It's a mistake. Just focus on the feeling. So that's whole category one. Now erase that. See just a blank space. Now create the opposite which is you're very loving, giving almost to a fault. Again, just see what that feels like in your body. Okay, keep your eyes closed. Now go back to category one, which is the anger. Don't worry about what's causing it. Make it intense. Good. Kill that now. Go back to neutral. Now go to category two, which is the codependent, overly giving, sensitive part. Okay, now I'm going to ask you to do something. And don't do anything now.

1:15:32but when I tell you to do it, I want you to do it immediately. Don't worry about it if you're doing it right. Forget about that, but do this immediately. Okay, you ready? Hit them both at the same time. Don't think. Good. Okay, open your eyes. Can you tell me what that felt like? Well, there's an intensity to it. There's also something exhausting about it, like it's a massive outpouring of energy in confusing ways. That feels very depleting and not productive. Yeah. So it's category three because you usually carry, well, I just call it category one and category two. So one is negative, hostile, which were you in touch with that part of yourself?

1:16:32I'm not like prone to anger. That's like not really a thing. What do you think of as the opposite of anger? The opposite of anger, gratitude. I mean, if anger is driven by a sense of righteousness that having been wronged in some level of victimhood that is kind of underscored with fear. Gratitude is a sense of the universe being abundant and that life is made of good things and possibility. Okay, so one way to use this, because everything we're talking about, when you're getting out of sync with her, forget about the content of what she's complaining about. You want to go into this mode. by doing that you're correcting your psyche in other words because you can see the human problems especially with you where it's pretty extreme your natural authority is so strong I don't believe you could turn it off we don't want to turn it off but what we do want to do see part X is the avatar of impossibility and flow is when you can connect two opposites at the same time.

1:17:57There's a famous quote, I think, by Scott Fitzgerald. Did you hear that? I don't think so. He says the evidence that you're dealing with a really great mind is when it can hold two opposites simultaneously in its mind. And the reason for that is it creates flow. so to try to connect everything you could say flow is both the let's say reward for doing this work but simultaneously it allows you to give even more to other people but the main thing with you is is what you do every single time if you just said there it is again she's bothering me she's trying to force me and you just said in your mind yeah if you said if you said something like i'm okay with who i am or you could say i think you're 100 right you have to have a consistent Distant, endless commitment to make her, the state of mind that she's in that affects you, to make that your goal.

1:19:18Your goal is to let her win. Yeah, I mean, my goal is to have a deeper, more intimate relationship with her. And so when I feel those emotions, those avoidant emotions cropping up to do the opposite, which is to like move towards her and towards it rather than my impulse, which is to like recoil or retreat. You know, that's a very alcoholic thing. Like I wanna isolate, like I don't wanna confront tricky emotions. I think we all on some level, you know, have our version of that experience. Like the things that we need to work on that are calling us, that are the portals into, you know, evolution and, you know, greater awareness and self-understanding are the things that we don't wanna look at because they're uncomfortable, because those are Achilles heels or, yeah, but they, if you don't confront them or look at them, they only grow stronger and at some point, reveal themselves in your life in ways none of us want, right?

1:20:26So the solution is always to move towards the thing that you know you're avoiding or don't really wanna deal with, yeah. That's correct, I'll give you another tip. Why is it? There's so many conundrums in the human experience, it's wired a certain way for a reason. And if you're lacking in faith or some kind of connection to the divine. Like, just look at the mechanisms of being human and the way that it's constructed and wired. It is here for your evolution and your growth. Like, I really believe that our purpose here, if you're lacking a purpose, your purpose here is to grow. Yeah, 100%. And if somebody can't grasp that, they're an idiot.

1:21:13You have to tell them that. But it's like this whole mechanism has been constructed over millions, billions, endless numbers of eons. And if you can't find or see the meaning of that, or at least the information that there might be, you're crippled. And when you get a lot of people crippled at the same time, because you start here with the promise. Promise is not fulfilled. You feel gypped, whatever you want to call it. if in that whole thing you can't come out and feel at least some intimation of this is the way it really is and it's supposed to be this way so that I can grow as much as possible if you can't grasp that it's very difficult I've been lucky just in my practice and the people I'm working with I also think the ones that weren't interested in this.

1:22:11I didn't have some instinctual feeling this is the way the game should be played. I don't think they come to me. But anyway, I want you to call me in a week, you know, just to tell me how this is going because the main thing about it is to remember to do it. You can change your relationship with her and as you do, it will help you cross this barrier. I have no reason to say that, but I just feel it. Yeah, I'm gonna take you up on that. I think we're all on some level caught up in our own looping narratives and stories about who we are and what we're capable of, et cetera. And the only way to gain any kind of objectivity on that is to bring a third party in because you can't solve the problem or transcend that loop and see it clearly with the same brain that is producing it, right?

1:23:19Like you need an outside observer who can deconstruct it for you. And it requires a certain level of like willingness and openness to engage with that, Like the people who don't come to you, who aren't ready to sign up for that kind of thing. But on some level, we can't grow. It is a team sport, to your point about the collective. In the same way we need to give back to the collective and transcend our selfishness and inclination towards individualization and all of that. In order to really become more self-actualized, you have to be willing to raise your hand and open up to somebody else and be honest, which is hard.

1:24:05No one wants to expose their secrets into the light, but like shame can't survive the light, right? Like you have to, the path forward is always the uncomfortable, difficult path. And so I'm always trying to model the power of vulnerability because it isn't a weakness, it is a superpower. And we're so reluctant to share on that level, but there's so much freedom on the other side of it. And as soon as you get a taste of that freedom, you want more. and there's always more growth. Like as much as I've done, there's so much more that remains always. Yeah, you're an interesting person to me because let me put it this way.

1:24:48You not only have the talents, you have the positioning, which I count as an extra added bonus. You have to view this as, it's like taking care of a pet. You're responsible for this It's organism. That's what you want to think about. The organism being what? Being the higher bond. It's real. I'm trying to think of an example. Nothing is coming to mind, which makes me even more ashamed of myself. Let's go down a shame spiral together. We'll hold hands and just go down the funnel, Phil. All right, let's try that. what's at the bottom of the funnel opportunity. Okay, let me just show you this. Do you want me to join this?

1:25:44Yeah, please. Okay, this here, we'll say that it's uncertainty. It's just a horizontal line. So on one side of the line, you have uncertainty, probably the thing human beings fear the most. Uncertainty is the domain, it's the backdrop, which allows growth and most of all creation. And in this zone of uncertainty, these little things here represent flow. See if that makes sense. Let me see. So uncertainty is this like comfort with uncertainty. is the pathway to growth and to creative expression, to flow, right? Yeah. This paradox of being certain around uncertainty is so interesting. I had, do you know Ellen Langer?

1:26:47No. She's a professor of psychology at Harvard. She was like the first female, the first woman to get tenure in the psychology department at Harvard. and she has a whole thing around uncertainty. Like obviously uncertainty is uncomfortable for the human being, right? Like we create these illusions of certainty to keep uncertainty at bay, but all our certainty is actually just fabricated to make us feel safe in a world that is defined by uncertainty. We don't know anything, right? And so like you, her whole thing is around action and not being caught up in the paralysis of uncertainty. And she talks about like making decisions and your work is very similar.

1:27:34I saw a lot of overlap here in that we have this inclination towards like analysis paralysis and we don't wanna make decisions and we're indecisive. And then when we make a decision, we're analyzing whether it was the right one or the wrong one forever. And her whole thing is like, don't worry if you made the right decision, like make the decision right. Life is about making decisions. It's that thing, it's like take the action, make the decision, move forward, stop ruminating in the past or projecting how it's gonna impact your future and just continue to make decisions. And to the best of your ability, make those decisions right in your attitude around them.

1:28:11Give me that. Which one? The same thing? Yeah, so over here you have clarity. Now, the job is to move from this apparent clarity to cross this line into the realm of uncertainty. And people can't do it, obviously. There's a secret to it, though. I alluded to it before. You see each one of these views? These views are called turnarounds. and all it means is I was feeling good I had bad luck I lost my nerve I got sick, whatever it is so I gave up now if you can work through that so that you would go up here things are fine down into the trough you're fucked and recover from it in that recovery you've created value and the person who creates the most value is the one who can cross that line.

1:29:22And that's an experience of getting fucked and then recovering from it. You can call it... Right. They're all like micro heroes journeys. That's right. That's brilliant. So what you drew was a bunch of yous, each you representing some individual journey through uncertainty to the other side. Yep. That's called a turnaround. And no matter how many of these yous you traverse, there's always going to be more. Yeah, which is good and the bad news. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And one, another thing. You have to speak differently. Tell me more. You're going to have to speak a little more from the heart.

1:30:07It's very compelling when you do. Otherwise, you're dyadic. Yeah. Which is, you know, here's one of the smartest guys I've ever met, but I don't give a shit. And you shouldn't either. I think in this context, I don't wanna be defensive. Like I hear you, like I'm gonna think about that. I am trying to be present, but I'm also trying to be a proxy for the audience and make sure that the ideas are getting conveyed clearly. And so maybe that takes me out of the moment or like the most authentic version of who I am to make sure that like. this is helpful for somebody who's spending time with us. Yeah, which is understandable.

1:30:53It's fine. All these things are a matter of degree. But most of this shouldn't occur while you're working with another person. It should occur just as you're walking around, going shopping, whatever. But the point of it is, well, you'll find out how much of this you're really willing to do and how much you aren't. but the way you find out is by how many turnarounds you can. And that's the opportunity in bad luck, however you wanna say. Right. But unfortunately, you're gonna have to hit that nadir moment on each one of these, right? And that's where all of your instincts are to like run away or opt out, but you have to stay in it.

1:31:36Yeah, but that's not unfortunate. That's good luck. Right, I mean, the gift is a result of that, but it means that you have to go through all of that discomfort and challenge, yeah. I'll tell you one nice thing about you. You have the gift of being an authority figure and being probably slightly over the line in terms of knowing, but you're very, very human. I could almost feel you empathizing with these poor fuck people. So that's a great combination. All right. It's another discussion. Yeah. Is that the most uplifting note that we can like end this thing on, Phil? I'm very surprised at who you are.

1:32:21I like you very much. Okay, I'm glad to hear that. I'm relieved. Wow, that was a wild ride, man. Thank you.

1:32:32You got laser beams in those eyes. Yeah, I always had that. Yeah. In normal living, I suck. but in that area, it's some freakish kind of a thing. Well, let's conclude it for today, man. Check out Phil's books. The newest one is Lessons for Living. You can check them out in Stutz, the documentary on Netflix, which was beautiful. I really was very moved by that, yeah. Yeah, it came out good. Yeah, it did, did. And that's it, until next time. All right, I love you. Yeah, a little session is over today. Love you too, buddy. I'm in love with you now, for sure. Thank you. Peace.

1:33:26That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

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1:35:32Thank you.