Rising From Rock Bottom: David Manheim On Addiction, Recovery, Loss & Dopey

25:25I would do pills. I would do coke. But none of it was such an impediment. I managed to get through college in four years. I played in bands. I was interested in – I was an art history student and I was really interested in it. I didn't excel, but I wasn't failing. When I left college, I wound up becoming, I worked in television. Yeah. And it was when I started to work in TV that I felt kind of this pressure. In college, though, I remember a musician came to visit me and my roommate and had heroin, and he was a heroin addict. And I tried it that day, and I got way too high, and I threw up, and I was like, this is too much.

26:04This is too much for me. And I didn't do it again for years. And then when I graduated and I was working in TV, I had an apartment in Chelsea. Like I grew up in public housing in Chelsea. And my mom put me on a list when I was 11 to get an apartment. And I got it when I was 22. It's 300 bucks on 24th and 8th, like big studio. Wow. And a buddy of mine came to live with me. And I was traveling for the TV company. And I went to Michigan State to find kids to be on a talk show for this company. and when I came home, there were all these kids from my college buying Coke with my friend from this delivery service and I said to the guy, almost like, I can't even believe that this is what happened.

26:48I was like, dude, you're going to make all this money in my apartment. What are you going to give us for it? And he takes two bags of heroin, throws it on the coffee table. Me and my friend Todd did them that night, got way too high and then the next morning I felt better than I ever felt and I was like, holy shit, this is how I want to feel. Because you were still high. Still high. Yeah. That night I was probably too high. The next morning I was perfectly high. And I was like, this is, and I'm such a neurotic Jew from New York City that I was like, this is how I want to feel. It's more than weed.

27:19It made me feel the way you read about heroin making somebody feel. And I knew I had to keep it at bay. But I started succeeding in my little TV career and I wound up getting like an on-air gig. And that turned into a producer gig and that turned into a contract. and when I signed the contract, even though I knew that millionaires couldn't handle heroin addiction, I thought I could. And I remember in my head, I was like, I can do it every day. And that's when it started. And my TV career ended like nine months later. Yeah, very quickly. Well, a couple of things. I mean, first of all, that like almost, you know, I don't know, William Burroughs-esque like feeling of being at home when you find the thing that works for you.

28:02Like you finally have wrapped yourself in that warm blanket and all the problems that you didn't even know that you had suddenly vanish. And you're like, this is the solution to everything. This is what I've been looking for all along. And the insanity and ego of thinking, yes, I know heroin's like bad. Like everybody says don't do heroin, but thinking I'm going to get the best of this. I'm going to make it work for me. You know how like especially for some reason in the 90s, like I don't give a fuck was a big phrase. I don't give a fuck. And I really gave a fuck about everything. And when I did heroin, it was the first time I felt like I could own that I didn't give a fuck.

28:38And it wasn't a good quality to have, but I felt like I really needed it to not be so afraid. Like, I think I was such a fearful person that when I did it, it took the fear away from me. Well, that sounds somewhat related to the codependency. Like if you're so invested in making sure that everyone likes you and that you're kind of, you know, being the person that they want you to be, that's a major energy drain, right? Like you're carrying around that anxiety and pressure all the time. And something like heroin is going to make that, you know, all go away, right? Where does that come from? I mean, what were your parents like?

29:15My parents were like overprotective Jewish middle-class parents who taught school. And my mom had an idea of what kind of person I was supposed to be or how I was supposed to dress or how I was supposed to look. I bristled at it very hard. You know, like it wasn't comfortable to me. But you did it anyway. No, I didn't. I would do one out of 10 things she would ask. I would pretend I did the other things. I would say yes to everything, do what I wanted. I remember there was a classic moment with me and my sister and my parents in the elevator, and my sister was defiant. You know, she wouldn't do what anything my mom asked.

29:54And I said, Lori, why don't you just do what she says? Just tell her yes and then do what you want. And that was my total existence. And when heroin came along, I was like, I can just be done with everything. You know, I can just like, I don't need to worry about anything. And of course, it's like you trade all of your problems for this one problem, which is going to be way worse than anything you ever thought. I mean, you go on a journey with this drug. Yeah, I did. I lost the job first. You know, I wound up going to detox and I had, because I was making a lot of money, but I couldn't afford, and I was paying nothing in rent, but I couldn't afford to keep up with that.

30:32Yeah, 300 bucks in rent and you couldn't make the rent payment. No, I couldn't do it. And you're making what, like 100 grand a year or something. Yeah, basically. Yeah, and I was like in my early 20s. And I couldn't, I like all the money was going there. But this wasn't MTV, that was earlier, right? Like you had a thing with MTV for a while that started in high school, didn't it? Yeah, we were interns in my high school. In 11th grade, you graduate and your 12th grade, you do an internship. And me and one of my best friends were interns at MTV. And that's probably where the hustle really started.

31:01I hustled to get me and him on air. And we would go to - When you were in high school? Yeah, yeah. I would go like, we'd sit in Kurt Loder's office and we would beg every producer to put us on. And I was like, I was exactly the way I am now then. And I got us on and it was really fun. But I wound up at MTV again. Like the great bottom was that MTV too. First, it was the Lorne Michaels subsidiary Burly Bear. And that's when I became a junkie. And I realized I couldn't keep up with anything. They finally shit canned you there. They only shit canned me because I went to detox and I didn't tell them.

31:38I just told them I was sick. It was a big moment in my life where I could tell them or I could tell my parents. And I don't know why I chose to tell my parents. If I I told them they would have had to. Yeah, they wouldn't have been able to fire you. No. They would have had to support you as you went to treatment. So they let you go and then you end up back at MTV. No, they let me go and then I was just toiling around. And I had a friend who believed in me and he hasn't spoken to me since. But he believed in me. He was the creator of MTV Unplugged, this brilliant producer named Alex Coletti. And he recorded the coolest shit ever and he hired me to make a show.

32:14And it was the late 90s. Maybe it was 2001. It was MTV Presents handpicked. MTV 2 handpicked and like it was Coldplay's first record and John Mayer and Nora Jones. And I was directing Jason Schwartzman as the host. And I was fucking wasted on heroin the whole time. It was like a movie in my head. I was like shooting up in the bathroom on the 51st floor. In their offices on Broadway? Yeah. Yeah. And I wound up finishing the show. Show was horrible. The show I made for them was horrible. They didn't fire me. They just hired me to do the one show. So they never hired me again. And when I was leaving, I stole every promotional CD off every desk.

32:55And I ran to St. Mark's Place and sold them on, bought heroin. And that was the end of my TV career. Is any of this shit like on YouTube? Can you find this stuff? No. I mean, MTV Handpick Volume 2, I think you can find. But I'm not in it. You can just see Jason Schwartzman hosting a show. What about the stuff you did in high school for MTV? We have some of it. Like, my friend has it on VHS. And then on Burly Bear, like, I interviewed a ton of rock stars. And, like, I interviewed Kara Swan. I interviewed Wien. I interviewed Bob Weir. All of it, I'm high on heroin. And I have all that. It's a disaster.

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37:01these were reps that you're putting in to be a podcaster someday i mean you have this internal like showman thing right like you always wanted to be talking to people in some form of media context it's weird because everybody has like a dream or a calling and for some reason when i was in high school my calling was to be a talk show host and it's like i don't feel proud of it i remember I walked into the kitchen and my mom would listen to like AM radio in New York City. And there was a show called Rambling with Gambling with John Gambling. And I was like, he sounds very relaxed. He sounds like he's got a really nice job.

37:36And I was like, I kind of want to do that. And then I got really into Regis Philbin, like, cause he seemed so relaxed and like he was having fun. And then I started listening to Howard Stern and I was like, I want to do that. And I didn't know how. Howard's the North star for you. That was another hustle. When I was in, Jesus Christ, September 22nd, 1999, I lied my way onto The Stern Show. Oh, you did? I don't know this story. Okay. The stupid show I was making for Burly Bear, I wanted it to get attention. And I was a huge Howard fan. And I think Artie had just started on the show. And I figured, how do you get on The Howard Stern Show?

38:16I could have my girlfriend, who was very attractive, get naked for him. I could get naked and wear a sandwich board that said Howard is the greatest, or I could come up with a lie that would stroke Howard's ego. And I was a big liar. So I figured I would come up with a lie that would stroke Howard's ego, which was our show was a college cable show. We were only on college campuses. So I told Howard that we were taking a poll to see who the entertainer of the millennium was and that he won the poll. And everybody that he beat on the poll were the people he hated most. It was like Jay Leno and he didn't like Adam Sandler.

38:51It was like anybody that I knew he hated, I had him beat. It was a lot of thought that went into this. It was a lot of thought. Well, you're like blazing it out of your mind. Out of my mind. In fact, that night I was with the girlfriend. We had done Ecstasy. Then we did Coke. Then we did heroin. I stayed up all night and I walked from Chelsea to K-Rock to present Howard with the shuffle entertainer of the Millennium Award. And I got a trophy. Like I got a trophy company to make the trophy. I was such a fucking hustly kid. I wouldn't even pay for the trophy. I told the trophy store, I'd mentioned the name of the store on the Stern Show and that's how I got the trophy.

39:28You told him you were already booked? I was booked. Oh, you were. By the time - How did you even get it to Howard though? When I was a kid, I was a PA. Like when I was in that era before I started producing, I was a production assistant and I worked for the E! Show. My boss recorded the Stern Show creative meetings and I was like, can I come? I'll be your assistant. You don't have to pay me. And I would go and help run the sound for the Stern Show creative meetings. And I met one of the producers, I think Jason Kaplan, and I, or maybe it was Casey Armstrong. And I wrote him that Howard won this award and that Burly Bear had millions of viewers, which it did.

40:06And Howard loved getting awards and he loved getting awards on the air. And I knew that and that's why he had me on. Wow. And he accepted the award on the air. And I have the recording of this. And he thanks me, right? I had a video of it too. I lost the video. He thanks me. He starts thanking his agent. It's like he was getting an Emmy or an Oscar. He's thanking everybody. And then Robin looks at me and looks at Howard and she goes, he's high. What are you doing? And then Howard's like, I'm going to beat you over the head with the award. Get the fuck out of here. Oh, he kicked you out? Well. Like jokingly?

40:39Jokingly kicked me out. But it was a great moment. Unbelievable, man. Well, I'm wondering like on what level this all like fuels the addict within you because you're able to like have this hustle game and get in these doors and make shit happen. And at the same time, you're using like a fiend, but as long as you can like get in to see Howard Stern or whatever, like you're telling yourself, I'm sure like, I don't have a problem. Like this is working just fine for me. Yeah, I think in the beginning, I mean, heroin almost gives you energy in the beginning. You almost have more ability to get stuff done for a very short time.

41:20And I think when I was accomplishing goals and I was exactly where I wanted to be and I controlled literally to the second how I was feeling with chemicals, I was like, this is really working. And going on the Stern Show, I was like, I'm really great. Even though inside I was like, I'm not really great, you know. And I think it drove me. And then it's like, you know, they talk about like an emotional hangover. I think after it all started failing, I was like, I was so close to being where I wanted to be and I didn't get there. But I still was regulating how I felt with chemistry. And I didn't, I just couldn't face real life.

42:00Yeah. And I stayed with it for, I was on heroin and methadone and benzos for 12 or 13 years. How many detoxes and rehab stints did you have? Like I lost track. I lost count. There's so many ins and outs in your story. I didn't do many real rehabs, but I did every free detox in New York and in Los Angeles. Like I wound up doing a rehab in Florida. I lost the apartment in Manhattan. And my parents would not let me keep, my parents, it was like a really fancy rehab in Florida. And they gave us a scholarship, right? Like they gave me a scholarship to like get half price or something. And it was a horrible situation.

42:43It was like one of these old school, they'll break you down and build you back up, but they forget to build you back up kind of thing. And while I was there, they told my parents, don't pay the$300 to keep the low-income housing. Oh, so you lost your suite. My birthright. Yeah. I lost my birthright and I was so upset and I was so like blaming them. It's like, you fucked me. How could you take this away from me? Why couldn't you pay$300 a month? And I was like, I'm going to move to California. I had friends out here. So I moved to LA from Florida after doing like 10 months in a sober living, using in the sober living, but just smoking weed, thinking I can manage like just smoking weed.

43:23But in my heart, I knew I still wanted to do heroin and I still, I wasn't getting sober. Sobriety was nowhere near me. What years were you in LA? I was in LA from 2001 to 2008. You were here for a while. A long time and I remember. But never found your way into the rooms during that period of time? I probably went three times. Yeah. And I felt totally alienated because I wanted to stay high. And I wound up getting on methadone out here. I had a girlfriend support me, take care of me. I was very much like we had two cats and I was like the third cat. It's amazing how tolerant your girlfriend was.

44:01I mean, you put her through the ringer, just in and out, relapse, relapse, lies, just all kinds of insanity. And she keeps giving you chance after chance. Yeah, she really, I mean, like we... Are you that charming? I don't know. I probably, I think with her I was. I think also in that situation, it was like that was a thing that really propelled my addiction because she was my best friend's girlfriend. and we wound up hooking up and I was like, I couldn't handle the guilt of having done that. So rather than just walking away from it, I was like, no, you need to be with me now. We wound up inflicting my friend with so much pain and then I kind of went underground in my head.

44:45Like I couldn't talk to anybody. I was so ashamed of that. The guilt and the shame just fuels more using. And that was a real moment of real shame because that friend I had been friends with since I was four. you know, one of my very, very best friends. And I'm friends with him again now. It took 10 years for that to heal. We didn't heal our relationship until after my mother died and he got married. And it's like, he's still, like, I told the story about this on Marc Maron. And my friend was like, how could you tell that story like that? He listened to it on Maron and he felt so angry at me for the way I told the story.

45:19So I'm trying to tell it in a more, you know, because he was one of the best people I've ever known. He's like my brother. And I It caused him so much pain and it was such a betrayal. And I think that caused me and the woman to be like, we better make this work because we've caused so much damage. The stakes are high. Yeah. So how did you finally make that amends and repair that relationship? Effort, you know what I mean? Like that relationship is incredibly important to me. I met him when I was literally four and we were just close as family, as brothers. And he wouldn't talk to me, but he knew that I was so strung out that he knew I had an excuse for having made, like me and her had hooked up when I was using.

46:01And he knew that I wasn't in my right mind, but he was still so angry at me that every time I reached out, he would definitely keep me at arm's length. He didn't invite me to his wedding. He didn't want to have anything to do with me. But when my mom died, I think he knew that it was time for him to try to show me some kindness. And then he saw me putting the pieces back together whenever he's in town, I see him. And we talk here and there. And like that relationship is just like one of my lifelong relationships that I really value. And he knows that. You mentioned that early on, heroin gave you this like energy boost, which I think is surprising for a lot of people to hear.

46:43I never did heroin, so I can't speak to any kind of personal experience with that. But I know a lot of recovering heroin addicts who would share the same, including fentanyl addicts. Like there's a reason why, like it works for a while, right? I went to treatment, I went to rehab with a bunch of doctors, a bunch of anesthesiologists and they were mad fentanyl addicts, right? Because they have access to it in the OR and they would have these ornate, ridiculous schemes to like siphon it off after procedures and create like a stash. But they would talk about how it was like the ultimate productivity drug.

47:21It allowed them to like work insanely long shifts and feel like they were on their game until eventually, obviously, it turns on you. It's a counterintuitive thing. You don't think that's going to happen, but you get a rush. I'm not an organized person, but when I was doing opiates in the beginning, I found myself cleaning my house. I found myself making sure everything was where it should be. It gave me this weird energy that even coke didn't kill. Coke made me scattered. It didn't make me feel focused, and opiates for some reason did that. That's crazy though, that anesthesiologists would do that and that people weren't dying then because they knew exactly the dose.

48:02Yeah, they know exactly what dose to take. Yeah. But the treatment center that I went to had a lot of doctors and a lot of pilots, like it was a diversionary like place to go. So when people would in their profession would get in trouble, they would send them here. So I ended up, yeah, I was like there for a hundred days and got to know like all these doctors and pilots And like, those are the two people that you completely give all control over to that you have to trust the most. And when you spend time learning about, there was a guy who was like a neurosurgeon, like operating on people's brains.

48:36And his favorite thing was to like inject himself with morphine and smoke a big cigar before. It's very reassuring. Yeah, or the pilot, like, we all saw flight, right? Like, it's very disconcerting. I got on the plane recently and I'm like, flying to Florida and the guy next to me is like, give me two double Tito's. And I was like, okay. It was like nine in the morning. I was like, okay. And he's just fucking drinking vodka, drinking vodka. And then like maybe an hour into the flight, I was like, what do you do? He's like, oh, I'm a pilot. It was a mess. It's like, it's very disconcerting. It's amazing that more bad stuff doesn't happen.

49:15It is true, right? Yes. And there is a weird thing about airports and airplanes where all the rules around like social conformity go out the window. Like people are just drinking at all hours and without any kind of better judgment about that. It just seems like, oh, you go into an airport and now you're in some weird time warp or anything. It's like Las Vegas. Every airport is Las Vegas. I know. I know. But I'm wondering like that idea that it gave you energy and cocaine didn't work for you. Obviously, we all find the drug that works for us. Like we've both been around this whole world for a long time.

49:51Like what is the difference? For somebody who's like listening to this or watching this, who isn't an addict or an alcoholic themselves, maybe they have a family member or friend or somebody who's struggling. Like what's the difference between like a heavy drinker and an alcoholic or somebody who can have a good time here and there and the drug addict? That's a great question. And don't you think the answer is the only person that knows the difference is them? It's a self-diagnosed. But that's real. You know what I mean? Like how many people have you known that you know need help, that you've wanted to help, that is beyond your help?

50:26You can't help somebody who doesn't want help. It's all about willingness. You can't even help somebody that does want help. You can't instill that level of willingness in another human being. It's like a weird inception. But honestly, that person has to just reach that point where they're ready to raise their hand. And until then, it is that thing of powerlessness that's so brutal. And that's why, look, all the people that have died who've called into your show or, you know, been guests on your show and Chris and all the like, Todd, obviously, these are people who you love and were super close to and would have done anything to prevent what happened to them.

51:08and they're doing a show about addiction and recovery and creating this community that makes people feel like they're part of something and that's a huge piece in the sobriety puzzle and yet it still wasn't enough. Yeah, I had no willingness to do anything until I did. Like it was not on my horizon to do anything positive for myself until I actually got sober. And with the death, like I had been using, like I said, for a long time, nobody died. Nobody died when I was using. I didn't know anybody that died. I mean, I was mostly using alone or I'd get like some weird guy that I would meet at the methadone clinic and we'd score together or something.

51:46I didn't have people dying around me ever until we started doing the show. And I think I learned the most about life waiting tables at Katz's. I think I was such an overgrown baby until I waited tables at Katz's that that was really the impetus for me to change. It's really interesting. How so? Well, I was in Los Angeles, like a total succubus on this woman, like totally doing nothing, not working for years. I didn't work. Maybe every job I had, I lost quickly. I would have seizures often because I was so addicted to benzos that if I didn't have benzos, I had probably eight grand mal seizures in like five years.

52:30You know, it was crazy. And it was in 2007, I want to say, and I was on 150 milligrams of methadone. And it was like 2007. And I got a phone call from my mother and she told me she contracted leukemia and that she thought she was going to die. I live in Echo Park. I like, I'm eating ice cream sandwiches and Entenmann's cakes all day. And I'm like, I can't have my mom die while I'm doing this much nothing. I need to go home. I need to get back to the East Coast. So I started kicking methadone. I kicked methadone for a year or something. It was a blind taper where I had them just lower my dose every week for a year.

53:09And then me and that woman moved to Burlington, Vermont, because my parents had a house in upstate New York. And I was too scared to go back to New York City because I was ashamed. I was ashamed to turn up and be such a failure. Like, where would I be able to pay the rent? What would I do? And I moved to Burlington with that woman and I was off of heroin and I was off of methadone and I was off of benzos. And I had really made a commitment that I was never going to do them again. I was still smoking weed. And I realized that summer that I couldn't be with the woman anymore, that I was too broken, that I had put her through too much hell and the whole thing was so painful.

53:46So I called my mom and I was like, can I come home? and I hadn't lived in my parents' house since I was in high school. Like once I left high school, I never went back. And my mom was like, well, you need to get a job. And our cousin owned Katz's Deli. And I said, do you think Freddie would hire me? And she goes, well, why don't you call him? So I called my cousin Freddie and I said, can I come work at Katz's again? I'd worked in summers in college. And he was like, sure. And me and the girlfriend broke up and I couldn't live in my parents' house. I just couldn't. I moved into my friend's mom's apartment on the Upper West Side.

54:20And I got a job at Katz's working the night shift, you know, in the afternoons. And the weekends, it would be from three in the afternoon to three in the morning. And it was the worst. Oh, that's got to be the best. For people watching, that's got to be the best time. Yeah, but for somebody who doesn't like working, it's the worst. You know, I had not worked forever. I remember I'd go out to eat with my girlfriend and I'd see people serving and I'd be like, I could never do that. Like I could never humble myself and serve people. And like, I didn't like working. I was like a lazy, entitled drug addict.

54:54And I didn't want to do anything. And I showed up at Katz's and I start working on the back counter. And the back counter is you sell snapples, you stock snapples, you weigh meat, you sell meat, and you kind of do whatever you're told. And I remember it was like November that I got the job and it was busy. And I was like, man, it's fucking busy. And I was working with this Jamaican guy and he goes, boy, you don't know busy till it's Christmas time or something. You know, a better Jamaican accent than I can do. I was like, dude, I'm not going to be here on Christmas. I'm going to be out of this place in a week.

55:27And that was like fucking 15 years ago and I still work there. But a waiter, there was this very flamboyant waiter and he would get his sandwiches cut from this very aggressive meat cutter. And they got into some kind of fight. and the waiter said something about the meat cutter's mother and the meat cutter stabbed the waiter in the ear with a fork and they both got fired. And one of the waitresses says, David, you want to do Tuesdays? I was like, okay. That's how you moved up. And I moved after a stabbing. After the stabbing, I got a waiter job at Katz's. Only in New York. Explain to people what Katz's is, because if you don't know, I mean, Katz's is absolutely iconic.

56:06When you say New York deli, like there's New York delis and then there's Katz's. It is the gold standard. It's like the New York deli to end all New York delis. It's a 135-year-old deli. It's the oldest deli in the world. It's the most iconic deli in the world. I would say it's the best deli in the world, but what they do there is nothing changes. They hand-cut all the sandwiches. There's no machine slicing. Everything is tried and true, and it got very famous because it was featured in the movie When Harry Met Sally, and Sally fakes an orgasm in Katz's, and that was kind of the beginning. but then as New York kind of developed and changed and Katz's stayed the same, people were really interested in that because if you walk in there, you're like walking into history.

56:49It's a time warp to go in there. It's a time warp, 100%. I spent a lot of time there late night. We would go and troll the Lower East Side bars or whatever and then you just end up at Katz's at like three in the morning. It's big. It feels like no other place in the world because it's very open and you feel like you're in a museum where you eat but it's also like chaotic. It's so wild. And everybody who works there is a total character. Everybody that works there, it's old New York. And what old New York is, is first generation immigrants that find jobs. And over the 135 years Katz's was open, it went from Eastern European Jews to like Romanians, to Russians, to Puerto Ricans.

57:30And now Dominicans are 97 % of the employees at Katz's and most of them live in public housing. and I found myself very connected to them and very attached to them and they would fuck with me and I would fuck with them. And I don't know, it grew into this relationship and I found myself comfortable there. But I didn't like the work. It was too much work. And everything there is arcane. Like there's no POS system. There's no nothing. You write everything down. You fight to get your food. You fight with the customers. and I remember the first probably month I worked, every table I went to, I'd say to the table, I hate this job, I'm not doing it again.

58:13And every time I would get to pick up - You told the customers that? I would tell the customers and then when I would get to pick up the food, I said, I'm not doing this again. I quit, I'm not doing it. I remember we made unsweetened iced tea, right? And I couldn't figure out how to do it. Like making unsweetened iced tea, it's like if you add ice too soon, it gets cloudy. If you do it too late, it doesn't look right. And I was too afraid to make unsweetened iced tea. So when the customer would ask me for unsweetened iced tea, I'd be like, we don't have it. And then somebody else, another waiter would walk past with a glass of unsweetened iced tea.

58:45And like, that's when I was like, I got to fucking get to work here. And I learned how to make unsweetened iced tea. And I learned every step I took in that place. If I worked a little harder, I would make more money. And it was the first time I really learned that putting in effort resulted in something good. And I waited tables there for 10 years. Was there a moment where the switch flipped or the tables turned on your relationship with service? Because sobriety is about service. Like dopey is a form of service. And when you're in a service industry, like with the customer, was there ever a sense of like, oh, now I'm embracing that aspect of that?

59:24or was it just another kind of like hustle that you fell to love? It was a hustle and I loved earning money at it. I wasn't sober when I started. Yeah. When I got sober, it all changed. You worked there for a long time after you were sober too. Yeah, I still work there. I just don't work there. Oh, you're still there. I work for Katz's still. Oh, you do? Yeah. Do you still live above Katz's? No, I live on Long Island. You did for a long time though. No, I lived in the neighborhood. Oh, you did. Why did I think you lived like upstairs, like above the deli. I wanted to get a room in the basement, but they wouldn't let me.

1:00:00But no, I lived in the neighborhood for years. But when I was working there, my mom died and I kept using. I met this woman. I got her pregnant and I kept using. And we got together. And my friend Todd, same Todd, was around and he showed up at our, we moved in together in Astoria. I was smoking weed and I hadn't done heroin in a long time. Todd showed up at our apartment. with heroin, like wasn't a smart move. And I was feeling so much pressure. Like I was this total ne 'er-do-well now with this, I mean, me and the woman had dated for five months and now we're still together. But this woman, her name is Linda.

1:00:38She's very beautiful. We have two daughters. At the time I was like, I can't do this. It's terrifying. All of my junkiness kicked in and I started using during the pregnancy. And I made sure not to use every day, but it was right around the corner. We had the baby. I had heroin in my pocket when we had the baby. I had heroin and pills in my pocket when we did live birth classes. Every night I would be in the other room and I'd be shooting dope and she'd be in the other room like watching TV. And one night she came in to say goodnight to me. And we were about to move from Astoria to the Lower East Side actually.

1:01:16And I had a syringe in my lap and she walked in to see me to say goodnight. And I just thought but she saw it, but she didn't see it. And I copped to it. And I said, oh my God. And she's like, what are you talking about? And I told her that I was relapsing and I was shooting heroin again. And she called her dad and her dad said, he needs to leave her. I'm going to kick the shit out of him. And I left and she left with our baby and went back to Long Island. And that was like the darkest turn. I wound up living on the Lower East Side using harder than I had ever used. Literally walking into walls.

1:01:55I broke my nose walking into a wall. And that's when I went to treatment. And that's when I met Chris. Because I was such a disaster. I couldn't visit my daughter without my dad. And I felt... You know how like people say you can't get sober for somebody else or it's not in your best interest to get sober for somebody else. and people say, oh, it's amazing. You got sober for your daughter. And I didn't. I got sober because when I would visit, I was such a child that I couldn't see my child without my dad. And again, the shame of that was the biggest shame I ever had. So I went to treatment and that's when I met Chris.

1:02:39Wow. I know, it's crazy. I jumped from Katz's to this epic fail. No, no, no, it's good. Well, there's so much to your story. I know, I'm sorry. It's impossible. If we just went from A to Z, it would be boring. So I kind of like jumping around like this. Okay, good. But correct me if I'm wrong, you weren't like struck sober with that experience, were you? No, I wasn't. Like there's still a lot of in and out. It's fucking amazing that you're still with Linda. Oh, that's, it is. But we weren't. I mean, you guys have gone through a lot. We went. She endured a lot of you, dude. Well, she's tough. Linda's tough.

1:03:13She's a social worker. She's a therapist. She's worked in treatment. And she got so angry when she found out I was using. She was like, I'm leaving. We're done. And we were done for four and a half years. Yeah. Four and a half years. For the first year, I got sober because I wanted – I didn't want to visit my daughter without my dad. So I got sober in a different fellowship, as they like to say. But I wasn't sober. I think I did the first two steps, you know. and I wanted to get the family back so bad. And then after my hair was 365 days clean, I started smoking weed again. And I'd have my daughter and I was obsessed with getting my family back.

1:03:57It's the only thing I talked about at Katz's. I talked to every worker there about how I had fucked up everything and how all I wanted to do was get my family back. And Linda was not interested at all, at all. But then our daughter Nora was in kindergarten and we took a trip to Dutch country. She was going to Dutch country, Linda and Nora. And she was like, do you want to come with us? And I was like, yeah. And she's like, it's nothing. We're not getting back together. We're just going on this trip. And I had started taking benzos again, all right? And we went on this trip and I knew that she would take a tiny little bit of Xanax if she was sleeping in a strange place to help her sleep.

1:04:34And I stole all the Xanax she had. And this is after you finally were in a position where you could see your daughter without your dad. Yeah, exactly. But I had no program. I was just like, I had gotten to a point where I was like, I can finally be the stoner I was meant to be. That's what I thought. Right. Like, all of - Well, that's the insanity. 100%. All of my dreams were, I was like, I was a waiter at Katz's. I was making more money than I had made as a producer at MTV. And I was living in a subletted apartment on the Lower East Side. and I was like, this is the best my life has ever been.

1:05:07And I was like almost comfortable. But when we went on that trip and she found out that I stole her Xanax, she's like, you're losing your custody. She's like, now you need to get another 365 days drug free. And I lost my mind and I remember it very well for whatever reason. It was my white light moment. And I'm writing her a letter and I'm like, just let me smoke weed. Like that was the email I wrote to her. I was like, listen, I can handle this. I can be one of these dads that smokes pot. And I'm typing this furiously in August, chain smoking Marlboro's like, and like, you know, sweating. And it was like, and then I see my hands and I'm like, what the hell am I doing?

1:05:49I was like, how can this be my great plea? Let me smoke pot. Like, how could that be like what I want more than anything? I don't know what happened. I was like, I got to try something else. And in the morning I Googled, AA meetings. And I went to an AA meeting and there was some kid celebrating 10 years, covered in tattoos, beautiful man, young man. He's probably 28, right? And I was like, this motherfucker has 10 years and he's 28. And I was like, I'm 41 and I'm like, totally like bereft and miserable. And after he told his story, this is how stupid I am. Was it Michael Chernow? It was a Michael Chernow-esque character, 100%.

1:06:29We just had him in here the other day. He immediately came to mind when you described this person. I've had him on Dopey. He's a very Michael Chernow-esque, but I'm such a jerk. I go up to the guy and I was like, it's so annoying that you have 10 years and you're 28. And he goes, oh, he was really friendly. He goes, oh, how much time do you have? And I said, none. And he goes, well, did you use today? And I said, no. And he goes, well, this could be your first day. And I was like... maybe it could be my first day. Never occurred to me. It never occurred to me. And I went home and I called my best friend and I said, do you want to come over?

1:07:07I have a ton of weed. And he comes over, I give him all of my weed. And I was like, it's going to be my first day. And the next morning, there was a 7.30 a.m. morning and I went to that meeting and I talked about how I had fucked up my family and how I was so obsessed with getting my family back. And this old painter, this actually famous painter, said, we'd love it if you came back tomorrow. and no one had ever said that to me at a meeting. And I was like, okay. You know, and it was 7.30 in the morning every day. And I went and I heard them read how it works. You know, rarely have we seen someone thoroughly follow this path and not achieve these results.

1:07:42And I knew that the only shit I had done thoroughly was used. And it occurred to me, I was 41. If I was lucky, I'd live to 82 and it was half my life. And what if I tried to do this? What would my life be like? and that's when I got on the path. That's how I did it. You know, I didn't go to treatment in the end. I just did that. No, you finally reached that point and you made a decision and you had the willingness. But what was different about that? You know, what do you make of that? Like, was it a spiritual experience? Was it right, you were at the right place at the right time and did the right thing right when everything lined up for you to be receptive?

1:08:19I think it's like you want to say you're sick and tired of being sick and tired every time you get beaten, but you're not. you're not sick and tired of being sick and tired until you are and you can't be willing until you are and it was a spiritual moment it was a total moment that I have no reason for why it was any different than any of the other times and I had failed except I was receptive I wanted to take suggestions and I wanted to do it differently and it's so weird like every other time I didn't want to. And that time I was like, I was just done. I was just like, I was tired. It's like, I don't talk about being ashamed.

1:08:58Like I, I often pretend like I never was ashamed, but I was so ashamed with my friend Dave and I was so ashamed with my daughter. And I think both of those things had reached a tipping point when I finally got sober and it was wanting to be on the other side of that shame. It's such a private hell to like marinate in that kind of shame. And you think there's no hope for ever resolving it. And you don't realize that liberation from that shame is on the other side of like shining a light on it and sharing it with another person. It takes a long time to even make sense of that. You know, at first, all you have to do is show up.

1:09:41You know, at first you just have to show up and then you have to do what they say to do, which is talk to other people who are sober. Somebody in that meeting every day would say, if you go to meetings, if you call three other alcoholics, if you have a sponsor, if you work the steps, if after you've worked the steps, you sponsor people, your chances of relapsing are pretty much nil. And I was like, okay, that's the five things that I need to be doing. And I just decided that I was going to be doing those things. And the thing I didn't mention was right before I got sober at Katz's, I wanted to create my talk show.

1:10:21So I created a show called The Last Jewish Waiter, which was supposed to be a talk show about a waiter who hates waiting tables, and he wants to do a talk show while he waits them. And I did that and like, you know, it was like - You did it while you were at Katz doing the waiter job. Yeah, yeah. And I did it at Katz's. And it got a little bit of attention and like New York Magazine wrote about it and like USA Today wrote about it. And Chris, who I met in treatment, was like, I want to do something like that. And I was like, you don't do anything. You know, I was like yelling at him. But I remembered he was a writer, you know, and he was a student and he had the best stories I ever heard.

1:10:59And I had another friend who years ago when I was using, he was like, you know, it would be fucking amazing is a podcast about drug stories. And I was like, what's a podcast? And it popped up in my head. And right before I got sober, I started calling Chris because Chris was a horrible drug addict. And he was doing the steps and he was going to meetings. And I started asking him, like, what should I do? And he's like giving me like the buy the book stuff to get well. And he's like, what can we do to be creative? And I was like, well, why don't we try a podcast? And he's like, what's a podcast?

1:11:35And I was like, I don't really know. But come to my house. It'll be like a radio show. And we'll just start telling our worst drug stories. So maybe three, four months after I had gotten sober, he lived in Great Barrington, Massachusetts. And he lived in a sober house. And he would drive down to the Lower East Side. and we started telling the stories. And that's when we started Dopey right then. That's how it all began. Wow. And not for nothing, when you started the talk show at Katz's, Linda noticed that and was like, oh, he's actually trying to do something. Like that seemed like that was a significant moment in the repairing of your relationship.

1:12:12Yeah, it was evidence that I was about something and not just about nothing. Yeah. You know, which was good. And it was evidence that I cared about what I was going to do. Yeah.

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1:14:06And that idea when you come in that all you have to do is do these certain things and make sure that your head hits the pillow without drinking or using is such a salve when you come in broken and you realize that you're incapable of making a good decision and that you have the willingness to take direction, which requires a certain amount of humbling because every addict and alcoholic comes in and thinks like, what do I need to listen to you fucking idiots for? I got this under control, even if your life is a complete disaster. Like you have to be totally disabused of that delusion and you got to get right sized and humble enough to take that direction.

1:14:46But what do you make of the fact that these simple things like take a commitment, like call a newcomer, call your sponsor, like make a gratitude list. Like what does this have to do with me and drugs or alcohol? Like there is a leap of faith there and there is a space in which spirituality leaks in and starts to kind of occupy some space in an otherwise like non-spiritual brain. 100%. It's really just what are you willing to do? That was the question I heard over and over. And when I did it, I said, I'm willing to do anything, right? and I did whatever I was suggested to do because I was so beaten and I knew that I had lied and cheated and stolen my whole life.

1:15:35And I wanted to do something different because I didn't like my life. I was 41. I had a subletted apartment, a waiter job and a daughter 50 miles away and a woman that didn't want to see me. And I was like, I want to like my life again. Like I liked it when I was a kid and it was really a profound thing. And years later when I got, into my recovery, somebody I heard at a meeting compared it to the Karate Kid. What does waxing cars have to do with karate? It's the same thing. And the best thing I ever heard about 12-step was that it's the greatest bait and switch that ever happened because you come in to not drink or not use drugs, and then you find this new way of life.

1:16:16But you didn't go in to find a new way of life. No, you just wanted to kick the drugs and alcohol. All you wanted to do is be able to but - Be okay. Get okay. Yeah, get over that. That's good news and bad news though. Right. Because then you realize like, oh, there's a whole huge knot here that I have to untie if I want to ever feel comfortable in my own skin. And that's not an easy or quick process. And it's endless. I mean, even just like my hustle of getting on your show, there's a lot of my defects in there. Sure. You know, it's like defects as assets, assets as defects, and then shame or pride, depending on how I feel that day.

1:16:51Yeah, I think he texted me at one point, like, you're not ever going to answer any of my texts, are you? Like, I'm never going to hear from you. Yeah, well. That worked, though, because then I was like, oh, man. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So maybe that was the master. Yeah, like, that was all intentional. Well, I mean, listen, when you came on Dopey, we had a connection. Sure. And we had a good talk. Yeah. And I knew that you liked what I was doing. And, like, as a manipulative drug addict, I wanted, like, to go on your show. so like my instincts kicked in and then also though I knew that we had like a thing I prayed on it but I also like I wasn't trying to like hurt anybody but it's you know what I mean but the other piece that gets left out here is that there was at one point this was years ago I think I was like okay man come on but like come on with Amy Dresner oh I know and we'll do like I need more women in recovery like I've had a lot of dudes on you know and at the time I was thinking like I need more women in recovery on but this would be cool to have because you guys know each other.

1:17:50I thought maybe that would be fun. I've never had like a threesome, you know, to talk recovery and you were having none of it. I was so self-centered. I know. So then I was like, all right, fuck that guy. Yeah, exactly. I hear you. That delayed this a couple of years. I hear you. Yeah. I think that's fair. And I think that I'm a dick. Like I should have done that, you know? And then I started texting you, I go on with Amy. Do you remember that? I was like, I'll go on with Amy. It's like, Amy will do it. I know. I know. What do you say when people inevitably ask you, like, why do you think that you're a drug addict?

1:18:22Like, where does it come from? Like, you know, is it the trauma in your childhood? Like, where do you root this in? Like, how do you feel that question? I mean, I have a lot of opinions and thoughts on this because I get asked this a lot too. I was asked that a lot in the beginning. You know what I mean? When I couldn't get better. I was asked that a lot. And I never had an answer. Like, and I kind of still don't. Like, I like to say I was bitten by a radioactive junkie. You know, AA is kind of about not asking that question. Not that it's not a question you shouldn't ask, but the program really isn't about that.

1:18:55It's about what are you doing today and how are you moving forward? And the idea being that like to ruminate in the past and to wonder why and to try to find the reason really isn't helping you in the current moment. and when I could accept that, like that was the greatest shift in me. It's like I didn't have an answer, but my answer was that's not important what I'm doing now. Like this work is what's important. I think the answer was, it was like the great soup. You know what I mean? There's probably some like genetic component, a very controlling mother, a very high pressure situation at school where I wasn't achieving at the level.

1:19:30So there's a lot of imposter shit going on, a lot of like getting good attention for doing the wrong thing. I think it was like a lot of different things. Yeah, so all your dopamine wiring got kind of fucked up. Yeah, like that's something with you. Like you got so much dopamine doing good things. Like that's been a great like constant. I had no practice. Yeah, but there's a lot of similarities even though our stories are different. Controlling mother, high expectations with the parents, never felt like I could live up to those expectations no matter what. a lot of people pleasing, a lot of trying to make sure that I was meeting my mother's emotional needs rather than the other way around.

1:20:12You know, there's a lot of stuff there. And I think what's interesting, the reason I'm asking this is that, you know, now we're learning more about how the brain works. We're learning more about the mental health piece, the role that childhood trauma plays in addiction later in life because of people like Gabor Mate and all these social scientists who are looking into this. And that's all great. But I guess the question I am always asking myself is, is this helpful? Is this part of healing? Or is this a distraction from the work that I just need to be doing now? I don't know that I have an answer to that, but I don't know if you've thought about that.

1:20:51I do think about it. And you know what I was thinking about doing is hypnotherapy. I'd like to uncover some stuff that I haven't been able to uncover, but I don't know that I ever will. And I don't know that it really matters. I am, of course, like that's a question that I was asked every detox I ever went to, every treatment I ever went to until they just told me that I was gonna die. You know, at the last place I went to treatment, they were like, you're gonna die, you know? And that was a good strategy on their part, I thought. Yeah, I think that people who are not addicts themselves tend to have a reductive take on what addiction is.

1:21:30And it's not their fault. They just don't have the experience that someone like you or I has that allows us to understand that it's more complicated, I think, than people realize. I'm sure there's a childhood trauma piece. I'm sure there's a genetic predisposition, but you can't just say, oh, these things lined up and it's A plus B equals C. And a study that always gets brought up that drives me crazy is that, maybe you've heard of it, that study with mice where they expose them to cocaine and they all become cocaine addicts. But as soon as they create a community, then the mice don't wanna use cocaine anymore.

1:22:06Hence, the solution to addiction is community or bonding to other human beings. And I'm like, yeah, but if that was it, the rooms would be empty. This is not a cure-all to this problem. It's much more complicated than that. It requires so many things, but it really what it requires more than anything is the addict or the alcoholic doing something. You know what I mean? Like everything else, like you can have a playground, you can have a gym, you can have a meeting. But if we don't go and do it, we're never going to get the good results. And then how can we stack the good endorphins? Like through exercise, through community, through fun things, through family, through all those good things.

1:22:47But I didn't want to do anything forever. Something changed. You know, something changed. And I think of it like a great cosmic confluence that happened. And I think that's what happens in anybody that gets sober. Something changes and they're like, okay, I can do this now. And if there was an answer, like exactly what you said, you know, like there wouldn't be rooms like that are out there and all the rehabs wouldn't be full. Yeah, there's something mystifying about addiction and mystical about recovering from addiction. It's a spiritual program. Which is amazing. That's also good news and bad news for a lot of people.

1:23:23It's great news when you're open to having a spiritual experience and you're willing to put some work into it, and it's bad when you're not. Yeah. What is your relationship with spirituality? I mean, I always wanted spirituality. Like, I was like a Beatle fan. You know, as a Beatle fan, you're like, Yeah, you have the picture of them with the Maharishi, like right behind your Zoom setup. It's actually not. It looks like it. It's them at a photo shoot for Sgt. Pepper. So they all kind of look like the Maharishi. I just assumed that was it. They all look like they were dressed when they were visiting.

1:23:56It was right around then. And I was like, I want to be spiritual. I want to be like an intellectual. I want to be cool like Beatniks and Beatles and all that stuff. And I would take drugs and want to have a spiritual experience. And I think when you take psychedelics, it's impossible not to have some kind of a spiritual experience. but heroin is kind of maybe in the beginning you feel some kind of cosmic touch and then in the end you feel like nothing what i was told was that 12-step program is a spiritual program and you need to have a higher power and ike was raised basically an atheist jew my dad hates god you know hates god because of wars being fought about god i liked the idea of god but had no understanding and you know all the great acronyms, you know, group of drunks, group of drug addicts.

1:24:49Somebody said, do you have the gift of desperation? And I did. And he was like, well, you use that now. And I did. And then it was more like, I believed in love. I believed in like the magic of the universe. I know the ocean is bigger than me. Flowers bloom, fucking seasons change. And I was like, I got into that. And then my new sponsor was basically his God is love. and replace the word God with love and be open to that. And that's kind of my spiritual program. I pray and I meditate and I try to use love as the spiritual higher power. What do you make of the explosion of interest in psychedelic therapies?

1:25:28Does that tease at the back of your brain? It teases out. Here's the thing I'm missing. If I just do that ayahuasca trip or whatever it is, it seems to be such a mainstream thing now. and so many people are exploring this. It's something I never did. And it's not for me. Like I know that in my heart of hearts, like this is not safe terrain for me to explore. But I also have to admit that it's been helpful to people that I know personally. And there seems to be all these like positive therapeutic, you know, applications for it. And I think at times it fucks with my head a little bit. What does it do?

1:26:10Well, it tells me that the solution to my problem lies in a mind-altering substance. And then what happens in your head when you think about it like that? Well, everything, my life will be great after I do this thing, right? Which is just the addict mind. So how do you parse the addict brain from the part of you that is a searcher and wants solutions? You shared with me that you just went to India to have an audience with the Dalai Lama. Yeah. Right? Which sounds very psychedelic and spiritual to me. It was in its own right without any medications. Right. And I would imagine if I was in that situation.

1:26:47But I'm super jet lagged now. And like there was a lot of effort that went into that. If you could just do a thing in the comfort of your home or down the street. I think I feel very similarly to how you feel about it, which is that I loved psychedelics. Like I really love psychedelics. And I wound up taking a Ibogaine to try to get off heroin. and I had a profound psychedelic experience on the ibogaine. But I just know that my runway of using, it's like if I do, I just feel like if I took - You've cracked the seal and it's just a little hop, skip and a jump back to where you were. For me, it's very much related to weed.

1:27:26Like if I do psychedelics, I'll want to smoke pot. And then I think about cigarettes. This is how unspiritual I am. If I'm tripping, I'll want to smoke cigarettes. Like that's my first thought. the least psychedelic, the least spiritual kind of thing. And that's my go-to. And of course, I want the nirvana of the psychedelic experience, but I don't think I can add any kind of mind altering substance to me and get good results. I'd get bad results. I think the problem for me lies in the idea that it is something outside of myself that's going to solve the problem. So rather than doing the work and looking inward, the idea that there's a shortcut or I can short circuit all of that inconvenience and just take this thing and put it inside me and that will do it for me instead of taking responsibility for that spiritual growth.

1:28:17I think it's fantastic that people can do it and get something great out of it. I think it's amazing. Like I think it's great that it works for anybody. I worry about opiate addicts. I worry about fentanyl addicts. I worry about heroin addicts who open themselves up to a psychedelic experience and it does short circuit their addictive nature. And then something happens and they die because those stories are out there. And I worry about them and I appreciate people who have good results. Like there's been too much positive effect of my recovery to take that risk. I have two little kids. It's like I'm not doing it.

1:28:52That's well said. That's well said. But I think we probably both know people who have gone into that and then they're kind of doing it a lot, right? Of course. And it's called The Work, right? So it's shrouded in positive verbiage. And I'm not sure that they're getting progressively more enlightened as a result of it. Maybe. I'm just not worried. I do know people that have benefited positively in significant ways from it. Me too. And I think it's fantastic. Fantastic. Like anything that gets a positive result with something as horrible as addiction, like I'm all for it. I'm just cautious, especially when it's a mood or mind-altering substance to throw at an addict.

1:29:33I'm cautious with that. Yeah. So Dopey's been going on for like, what, eight years now? Yeah. Eight years. Eight years and a little bit. What is the mission and has that mission changed? The mission is for Dopey to be Joe Rogan for junkies. No, I mean, the mission is like - If you want to hear some crazy ass stories, like it's the show for you. Yeah. And I've been tapping back into like the hard cases, like you said, like we've been getting guests. I'm realizing. Do you still have people call in though? Like the kind of hard cases that would call in and share what's happening in their life. Yeah.

1:30:06Yeah. They send in voicemails. They send in emails. I mean, like Dopey Nation, like Dopey Nation was a joke. Like we started the show and Chris would say toodles at the end of the show. and I hated that Chris would say toodles. So I would like play like a preacher and I'd be like, stay strong, Dopey Nation, like as a joke. And then all of a sudden Dopey Nation existed because I said that. And when Chris died, they started a Facebook group to mourn Chris together. And that's when Dopey Nation really started to get some juice. And on the show, we always asked for people to send in stories. So we kept up with different addicts and alcoholics and where they'd be at.

1:30:47in their journey. And there's been a lot of people that have gotten better just from listening to the show. And then there's a lot of people who died relapsing while being very much a part of Dopey Nation. So that is very much a part of the show. Like every show, we have at least two or three messages, emails, voicemails, stories from the Dopey Nation. And during COVID, Dopey Nation started Dopey Nation Zoom and they do 25 Zoom meetings a week. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. Just them. Oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah, it's amazing. And you end every show with Toodles. With Stace John and Dope Nation and fucking Toodles for Chris.

1:31:22Yeah, so you forgot that piece, which is like, yeah, that's the way you close it out. Have to. In honor of Chris. I gave Chris shit about saying Toodles every episode. And then after he died, people told me, like, he died out of nowhere. And he was living with this brilliant medical student. And she found him. And she was like a Harvard medical student and she found him dead in her apartment. And that week we did the show and she called in to tell the story. And it was so raw. It's the biggest show we ever did, but it was also like one of the most painful things I ever did. And it's a trauma she lives with to this day.

1:32:05And everybody was like, are they going to say toodles at the end? And I say fucking toodles for Chris. And it's like everybody, it's like it was this thing. And now everybody says toodles or fucking toodles or some Jamaican person said me not say toodles. It's all like it's built into the fabric of the show. Is that mural on the garage door still there on the Lower East Side? No, it's not. Do you remember I took a photo of it and I sent it to you? Who painted that? It's a dopey mural. It's a graffiti artist named Hektad who does a lot of murals of hearts around the city. and I just had this belief, it's part of my hustle, that if we have a mural, we are something.

1:32:45And that year we did like five murals, beautiful mural in St. Louis Obispo, right? In California, and it's still there in some like deserted park, amazing mural. And we had two other murals in Manhattan. Like one crazy story was - Did you get him to do it or he just did it on his own? No, I paid him to do it. All right, there you go. I paid him to do it and I want murals. And in that year, like we made it like every year on Chris's birthday and Chris's death day, we celebrate Chris. And we do Christmas on the day that – on his birthday. You know, C-H-R-I-S-M-I-S-S. And everybody in the community puts the Dopey logo over their eyes to show remembrance for Chris and addicts.

1:33:29And that's sort of the iconography of the show. You create this art where like it says Dopey across their eyes, the guest's eyes. Right, right. Well, it was. We kind of lost that. You know why? Because when I went on Marin, I had never said my last name. And Marin's like, are you a fucking idiot? You're trying to make a famous podcast and you don't say your last name? He's like, just say your last name. And I was like, okay. And I just listened to him because I really do want to have a career of podcasting. So for that day, we all put the logo over our eyes. But that summer, we commissioned Dopey Art and somebody did a piece in North Carolina and somebody did a piece in St.

1:34:05Louis Obispo and somebody did a piece in New Orleans and in New York. And then this crazy thing happened where I was walking down, it was during COVID, and I was walking down 7th Avenue and I see this dude doing this mural. Years before, when I lived in that apartment that I lost, there was these drug dealers that lived across the hall. And they asked me if I would keep a safe of theirs in my apartment because they didn't want it there. And I was like, well, if you pay me in drugs, I'll keep it. and they did. They kept it safe in my apartment and I'm walking down 7th Avenue and it's COVID and I'm wearing a mask and there's this muralist painting this beautiful mural and I walk up to him and I was like, dude, can I hire you to do a dopey mural?

1:34:50And he goes, yeah, I'd be interested and then we just start talking and I told him like, I do this podcast about addiction and recovery and he's like, take your mask off and I take the mask off and he goes, holy shit and it was the dude, It was the drug dealer. And he goes, I thought you were dead because I split. I went to Florida. He went back to the apartment to get the safe. My dad was cleaning out my apartment. He walks in. My dad's crying. He's like cleaning up needles in my apartment. It's a disaster. I guess my dad asks him to help clean up the apartment, which is a weird story. And he starts helping my dad clean up the apartment.

1:35:27And then when my dad turns around, he grabs the safe and he runs out of there. But I just ran into him on the street. And he's done two dopamorals and now he's sober. He was a crazy drug dealer and now he's sober 10 years or something. Wow. Yeah, it's amazing. That's a trip. Yeah, it was one of those things. How did this American life thing happen? It's my hustle. Still the hustle. Yeah, I've got problems, Rich. I've got problems. When we did The Last Jewish Waiter, when I was using heroin out here, I would drive my girlfriend to work and listen to This American Life and I was like, this is the best show.

1:36:01Such a relaxing show. and I'd be high and I'd listen to it. And I'd be like, I want to be on This American Life. And when I did The Last Jewish Waiter. Delusion of a heroin addict. Yeah, of course, whatever. And when I did The Last Jewish Waiter, I was like, this is a great This American Life story. And I sent in a proposal and I wrote it to them and they ignored me. And then when we started Dopey, I was like, this is a great This American Life piece. And I wrote them a letter. Relentless. And I sent it to them. And this is where it gets sad and crazy. But after Chris died, I was like, that's the This American Life piece.

1:36:33And I wrote them about what happened and like the next day they call me. And the other funny thing about that was I was in the This American Life studio recording probably for 13 hours telling the story and they didn't use a minute of it. I recorded for 13 hours and they only took stuff from the show. And it changed everything. Like when they did the story, I think our audience quadrupled. Wow. Yeah, I mean, that's a pretty powerful lift that you're gonna get from a show like that. And they did such an amazing job. Like that piece was so intense and sad. Tell me about the documentary. You sent me the trailer for this documentary that you're working on with Time Magazine.

1:37:17Yeah, Time documentaries. Time documentaries, but you know, whatever, affiliated with Time. That trailer fucking rocks, dude. You like the trailer? Yeah, I'm ready to go to like watch this documentary. I know. It's funny because like the guy who runs Time Documentaries was a guy that went to my elementary school. He actually went to my high school and he went to the same college that I went to. And now he lives in the same buildings that I got that apartment in that I grew up in. Wow. He's a couple of years younger than me. He was running the Tribeca Film Festival. And when the This American Life piece happened, I had just started doing catering for Cats's.

1:37:55And I was like, I want Cats's to cater the Tribeca Film Festival. So I went to go meet with him and talk about it. And he had known about The Last Jewish Waiter. And he's like, well, what are you working on now? And I was like, oh, I've been doing this podcast about drug addiction and my partner just died. And This American Life actually just did this big piece about it. And he was like, oh, and he listened to it. And he was like, oh, well, do they have the film rights for it? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, well, how long do they have it for? And I said, a year or something. And I forgot about it.

1:38:24I didn't even think about it. And then like a year or so goes by and he calls me and he goes, I just took over documentaries at Time. And I was like, cool. You know, he's a very successful guy. I was like, cool. And he's like, do you have any ideas for a documentary? And I had a friend who like does documentaries about like drug addiction and like the guy who created acid and stuff. I was like, yeah, my friend wants to do a documentary about Albert Hoffman and creating acid and Bicycle Day. And he's like, no, you fucking idiot. I want to do a documentary about Dopey. And I was like, wow. I was like, really?

1:38:57Because me and Chris never shot video. You know what I mean? Right. I was like, how can there be a movie? Like, I love the Oasis documentary, but the best thing about it is you see Oasis in it playing songs and stuff. So I gave him everything I had and they made this amazing sizzle reel, you know? And I couldn't even believe how beautiful it is. And now they're looking for a director and they're going to try to pitch it and hopefully something comes of it. So still a long road. the documentary is not made. No. Yeah. No, it's a long road, but the sizzle is really cool. That's how you, that finally broke the seal.

1:39:32Yeah, that was the thing. I was like, this is legit. Now it's time. But I actually thought after watching it, I was like, oh, well, the documentary is probably in post-production right now. Like this is just a, you know, a little trailer. Is this disappointing for you then? Yeah, like we're canceling this. I'm not publishing this interview anymore. Until the movie comes out, right? Yeah, we'll sit on it until then. That sounds like an excruciating time period. Yeah, no. It should get made though. It is a great story. I think it will get made. And really what I was thinking was not to do a bait and switch with you, but I think it tells the story of how our show changed other people's perception of addiction.

1:40:12And I thought that went - Well, that's the point that, yeah, sorry, I didn't want to step on your words, but like that's kind of like how I opened this with this idea of the best part of what the internet can do for us. And I think we have seen an explosion in awareness because of what you're doing and others are doing to change people's sort of preset ideas of what addiction and recovery is. 100%. And I feel like people are like, oh, it's so amazing you make this show to help people. And it's like, I don't make the show to help people. I make the show because I want to be famous and I like making a show.

1:40:49it just so happens that it's a good show and it helps people. Like me and Chris used to make that joke all the time. If we tried to make a show that helped people, nobody would get help and the show would suck. But if we make a good show, maybe the side effect is that somebody actually gets something out of it. And that's the show. Yeah. And you still love it. You love doing it. I love doing it. Yeah. I really do. I love every bit of it. I mean, don't you love sitting down and meeting people? No, it's great. It's the greatest gig in the world. I can't even believe I get to do it. I keep waiting for them to haul me out of here.

1:41:23The coolest thing is it's yours. Like, don't be like, no, I don't have a boss. But that doesn't prevent me from thinking somebody's still gonna haul me out of here. I know exactly what you mean. You know, the imposter syndrome and just the insane ridiculousness of how my life has changed, you know, from when I first got sober to now. Like it is only made sense of through some appreciation of mysticism and spirituality because it has nothing to do with me or logic or rationality in any way, shape, or form. I think the closer you can get to that, the better off you are. Because, like, I try to live with higher power and spiritual stuff, but I'm so driven with this weird propulsion that I get confused about what really is happening.

1:42:12You know what I mean? And when you try to live on self-propulsion, you can be disappointed constantly because you're not doing it enough or well enough and you get all these ideas that I'm not good enough. But if I can separate myself from it and know it's this other thing, it's not about me. Are you good at doing that? No, I'm terrible. I'm not very good at it either. Terrible. Yeah, but left to my own devices, I will pivot back to self-will and then I get petty and competitive and caught up in the wrong things and lose sight of what's important, which is just, you know, the great privilege of being able to do this thing and having gratitude for it.

1:42:51But I love to hear you say that. You can slip into those things. Oh, of course. I feel much better. Thank you. Yeah. I want to end this with just some thoughts on the nature of addiction and perhaps something you could share about the road to recovery for the person who's still out there right now or the person who's listening or watching who has someone they care about who's out there suffering? The person who has somebody that they care about, I had somebody call me the other day, right? There was a guy who came on the show when Chris was alive, and he was on methadone. He was a waiter at Nobu, and I was a waiter at Katz's.

1:43:30And he came and he told this story about stealing 1 ,000 Vicodins from a pharmacy. He was a great, amazing guest. And he wound up relapsing so hard, and we got him a scholarship to one of our sponsors, Oral Recovery, and he did like a year there and he relapsed again and he got a year again and he relapsed again. And now he's just relapsing. And his mother called me last week and I had been in touch with him for eight years. Like he came on the first year. And his mother said, well, what can I do for him? And I said, lady, you can't do anything. I said, what you need to do is take care of yourself and you need to go to Al-Anon and you need to try to be of service to somebody else because you can't help him, but you can help yourself.

1:44:09And if you help somebody else, you're going to feel better. And it's hard to understand this because she loves her son so much, but she needs to take care of herself, just like he needs to take care of himself. What you tell the family is you need to take care of yourself and hope that they do okay. And what you need to tell the addict who's suffering is what are you willing to do? And we can't answer that question. Yeah. It's such an unsatisfying answer. I know. You know, the tough part, especially with loved ones, family members, is you can tell that to somebody, but then they say, I hear that.

1:44:48But at the same time, if this person goes out and this happens and I didn't do anything, I'll never forgive myself. So I have to keep trying. Well, I mean, that's the thing I said. She said, do I have to turn my back on him? And I said, no, I don't think you have to turn your back on him because I really think that he's going to die, this guy. I talk to him all the time and I don't and he's like if he makes it it'll be a miracle he's one of these guys that has been on the show so many times that I feel like he's predestined to die like it's like there's been so many of them and I'm telling him I'm like dude you are gonna die unless you do something different and I said to her don't turn your back on him because will you be able to live with turning your back on him he's from Michigan you know she lives in Michigan he lives here he's in sober living here right now he's trying to get it together but I'd say don't turn your back on him because you won't be able to live with it if he dies.

1:45:42But take care of yourself. It's like the greatest thing I've ever heard about recovery is if you put your recovery first, everything else falls into place. And that goes for her too with her codependency. She needs to put her recovery first. He needs to put his recovery first. And I know it's an unsatisfying answer. It sucks. Yeah, that's what's so brutal about it. But I've also gotten out of the prediction business because I've seen people who I just thought there's no way this person is gonna get it and they are gonna die. And I can see the path to that is clear as day. And then they end up figuring it out and then completely revolutionizing their lives and going on to being these productive, amazing people.

1:46:22And then you have people who you think, man, that guy's doing the work. Like, look at him or her go. Like they're doing this stuff. They're calling, they're so active. And then dead, you know, go out, relapse. It was all a ruse. Like Chris. It was a show. Yeah. And none of us knew. And our laser focus is finally attuned to like bullshit. You can see it a mile away and yet still there's somebody who is better than you at hiding the truth. I think with that guy that I was talking about, I'm saying this because I want him to prove me wrong. I want him to do well. And I also don't want to be struck stupid again at this person who's so close to me in the show dying.

1:47:07Like I'm trying to like be ready for it. But I want him to prove me wrong. He's so talented and so smart and kind. And like you want – I want everybody to live. I want everyone to get well and then help the next addict. That's – of course. What is your recovery like day to day, day in, day out look like now? I mean I pray every morning. I say thank you when I go to bed. I do that. I go to meetings probably between two and four days a week. I run a meeting on Fridays. I do like a Zoom on Wednesdays. I have a sponsee. I have two sponsees actually right now. One of them though has like 33 years. He came to me like he was dry.

1:47:49He was dry for like 29 years or something. And he's like getting a divorce or something. And he had just showed up at the rooms. and he's like getting phone numbers. And I was like, well, this is my phone number, but I know you're never going to call me because nobody ever calls me that I give my phone number to. And he called me and he was like, will you be my sponsor? And he had 29 years and I had like five. And I was like, yes. And I'm a master at sponsoring people with way more time than me because they get to keep their shit together. And I took him through the steps and it was amazing. But I've never taken anybody through the steps that had less time than me.

1:48:22So that's annoying. Well, time's a weird thing, right? Your sobriety is really about your level of engagement with your own recovery than it is about the amount of time. Like time can work against you because it can make you, and I've experienced this time and time again. It makes me lazy. Complacent. You know, my foot comes off the gas and then the character defects start to percolate up to the surface again. And I have to get knocked around a little bit to get reengaged. But when you put your recovery first, everything else is better. Sure. It's like I'm sure it's like I'm trying to get in some kind of better physical shape.

1:48:56And I've been doing this app from couch to 5K because I'm supposed to be doing like this 5K in Vermont. Every time I run, it hurts. But I feel so much better the rest of the day. And it's shocking to me. And I think about you and I think about fit people and I'm like I'm resentful. But at the same time, my day is so much better after I do it. And it's the same thing with recovery. It's exactly the same thing. You were sharing about that before the podcast. And I said, well, your recovery hasn't been linear. So why should your fitness journey be linear in that regard? Like the fact that you're even doing that is great, man.

1:49:34Well, I'm gonna be 50. I'm gonna be 50 in June. Yeah. It's a good time to do it. Well, I wanted to be like you. I was like, I wanna be like Rich Roll when I'm 50. You don't wanna be like me. You wanna be like you, man. I wanna be - You wanna get to that point where you actually, like you get over the hump of it sucking so that you look forward to it. That's what I'm talking about. And it's not any different than I can't stand going to these meetings. And then one day it's like, I can't wait to get to the meeting. 100%. That's the other best thing I ever heard. When someone says, how long do I have to go to meetings for?

1:50:06And this woman called into the show and she said, you go to meetings until you like it. And that's what I tell her about. You go until you like it, you know, which is weird. Yeah, that is weird. She also predicted Todd's death. She heard Todd on the show and she predicted Todd's death and then he died six weeks before Chris did. Wow. So it's one of those things. I want everyone to live and do well. I heard you use this interesting analogy about your recovery, which is this idea of tethering the hot balloon. Do you know what I'm talking about? Well, I think the idea was if I'm a balloon rising and I don't want to float away, how many things can keep me tethered to the ground?

1:50:50And the more things that keep me tethered as a positive thing, am I doing service? Am I sponsoring anybody? Am I going to meetings? Am I putting my recovery first? Am I praying? Am I meditating? Am I exercising? Am I trying to do the next right thing? All those things are going to be the tethers. And if I stop doing those things, the tethers get off the ground and you float away, but not in a positive way. You float away and you're gone. My favorite idea was reverse strip poker where like you – I don't even remember the idea. But the idea was like you better have a fucking ton of clothing on because once you – and meaning like all these different attributes of your recovery.

1:51:34Because if you don't, you're going to wind up with nothing and you're going to be naked and vulnerable. So you add these things. The more layers that you have on, the more resilient you are against whatever is pulling you away from the better version of yourself in the same way that the more tethers you have, the more likely you're grounded, right? Like as many backups and fail-safes as possible. A hundred percent. My favorite, you want to hear my favorite analogy for recovery that I came up with? This is my favorite one. You're sitting next to a lake or a body of water and I go to a beach meeting, you know, four days a week in Suffolk County, New York, and it's on the Great South Bay.

1:52:11And so I see the addict or the alcoholic is a person sitting on this body of water and they have a bucket and they have an eyedropper and they need to fill up the bucket with the eyedropper, which will take forever, but it will fill up one little bit at a time. And what you need to do is not spill the bucket, you know, so protect your time because you're going to have to fill it up with an eyedropper, but it will get full. You know, and that's how I see my whole program. I like that, man. That is a good one. That is your best one. That's better than reverse strip poker. I know, I know, I know.

1:52:45I try. Well, it was good talking to you, man. I think that's a great place to, you know, kind of end it for today. Thank you so much for having me. Do we do it? You tell me. You know, I'm thinking it's never going to happen. I'll do a Marin thing. Like, how do you feel? Are we good? Yeah, that was so funny because afterwards I was like, I don't think it was that good. And he got so angry at me because he liked it. Yeah, he liked it. I was at the airport and he's like, he texted me like, what'd you think? And I was like, I don't know. And he's like, are you fucking kidding me? Like he liked it and his producer liked it and everybody that listened to it loved it.

1:53:17But I left there thinking it wasn't that good. Well, I loved it. And I think this was pretty good too. So I don't know how you feel about this. If you need me to text you at the airport, let me know. Yeah, maybe you should text me. All right, man. That was great. I loved it, buddy. Thank you. Let's hang out in New York. Just let me know. All right. Toodles for Chris. Indeed. Cheers.

1:53:42That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

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1:55:27Thank you.