ROLL ON 2025 So Far: Navigating Uncertainty, Getting Unstuck, Elmo, Psychedelics, ‘Adolescence’ & More

26:26And there's all this kind of intensity that goes into how you launch a show. Like I didn't launch a show, I just uploaded an episode and said, that was fun. Let's do it tomorrow, kind of thing. And like those days are gone. But it was cool to go there. Like Mark Maron did a thing. I went to go see him speak. I didn't go to the Spotify party, I should, but like all these creators were there. Well, Simmons and Marin and you and Rogan, these are some of the early names, right? I mean, I wasn't like first, I mean, Marin was doing it before me by a couple of years. Simmons was, there were people around.

27:05I mean, Rogan had started, Adam Carolla, like a lot of comedians, right? But it just wasn't the landscape it is now. But interestingly, one of the things that happened when I was there was the launch of Michelle Obama's podcast with her brother, Craig Robinson, it's called IMO. And I had the opportunity to kind of attend this intimate gathering at the Rivian house to celebrate that launch. So Michelle Obama was there, Craig Robinson was there and they kind of came out and like talked about their show. They had just recorded an episode with RJ Skaringe, the founder and CEO of Rivian. People who watch or listen to this show know he was on our show recently.

27:49and it's just what it's like, oh, Michelle Obama is here. Like she's launching a podcast, you know. So that was really cool. I got, she split as soon as she kind of got out and said a few words, but Craig Robinson hung around and I got a chance to talk to him for a little bit, which is cool. So yeah, you know, Michelle Obama hosting a podcast. I would say that the medium has come a little. It might do well that show. Yeah, I think they're gonna, I think they're gonna do all right, yeah. I'm gonna do okay. Yes, the medium has matured, the corporate people are involved. It's not just South by like, there are people are selling out arenas to do their like live shows.

28:28Like remember there was that - Acquired. Exactly. Acquired, so yeah, speaking of acquired, those guys do an amazing work. If you're interested in entrepreneurship or just high performance in general or what makes successful people successful. Like those guys are extraordinary at what they do and they've developed an incredible following and they're doing arenas, right? And I actually just listened to one of those episodes last week because right after South by Southwest, I had a speaking gig in Tucson at an event called People for Bikes, which is sort of a bike industry gathering. And part of that speaking opportunity involved me interviewing Jim Weber on stage, who is the former CEO of Brooks, Brooks Running.

29:17And he had been the guest on Acquired at one of their giant auditorium shows. So I listened to that to prepare for this conversation. And once again, was not disappointed at what a good job those guys do. But Jim Weber was super interesting, very friendly, affable guy who came into Brooks, in 2001 when it was a distressed asset. I think they had, I can't remember what the revenue was, something maybe it might've been something like 60 million, but I think they were something like 20 or$40 million in debt. They were losing$5 million a year. They were teetering on bankruptcy and he was the fourth CEO in two years, brought in to try to turn this thing around.

30:01Everyone else had failed. And in a couple of years, he did turn it around. And ultimately, it blossomed into a billion dollar plus brand under his stewardship. So he's like this sort of like really dynamic leader who also in 2017 got diagnosed with esophageal cancer and continued to like steward Brooks. He only recently stepped down like this past year, but it became a independently like wholly owned subsidiary of Berkshire Hathaway. So he has all these stories about, you know, working with Warren Buffett, who he had always been obsessed with and stuff like that. He's a cool dude. Yeah. Warren might be my favorite billionaire of all my billionaire baseball cards I got at home.

30:47I've got a whole, you know me. You do. I've got a whole altar to the billionaires and Warren is now at the top of my, I've had to demote some, I've had to demote a few of them. Yeah. I want Zuma to know who the billionaires are. You do. Well, we do have an obsession with billionaires in our culture for better or worse. Probably mostly for worse. Yeah, for worse. Long ago, I thought billionaires should be banned because you should be able to get by with$999 million. So like at a billion, like I had this whole thing. But how would you ban them? What does that mean? I mean, I'm not down with that.

31:22If you can figure out how to make a billion dollars, you should be able to do that. But I do think if you are so lucky, so fortunate, so resilient or whatever to accumulate that much wealth. Doesn't it come with a little bit of responsibility to give back? Right, so my whole thing was predicated on like, you know, when Eisenhower was in office, something like people in the top tax bracket, after you earned a certain amount, like you had to pay like almost 90 % in taxes, it was crazy. I hate taxes too, no one likes to pay taxes. I understand even billionaires don't wanna pay taxes. They think they can do a better job with their money, helping people probably is the narrative in their head, I'm guessing.

32:01but not having a billion dollars, I don't really know. But I did have this whole idea for my presidential platform, which was eliminate billionaires. If you make, once you get to a certain amount of net worth, it's a hundred percent, you can still do your job, still enjoy the job, but it's a hundred percent taxed. And then - You work for the government then. Well, or you can, maybe there's a way to use that entrepreneurial spirit as a way to solve some problems like our infrastructure, instead of just complaining, You have to actually solve one of the problems we have. And then my other thing, the conservatives could get around this.

32:35The second prong of my platform was, you can no longer pass laws, you can only repeal laws. That was my second thing. So first you tax the anti-billionaire tax, then you stop passing laws. You just repeal the laws that you don't want. And that was my two prong platform. And then once that was in place, I would resign. So like that was all I was gonna do. Like that was my whole, but now we have Doge, which is kind of like the worst version of that idea. It does channel a little bit of that spirit. Yeah, a little Doge, a little Doge in there. A light dusting of Doge on your platform.

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38:30But the executive branch doesn't even have the authority to repeal laws. I know. I guess it doesn't matter, right? Does anything matter anymore when it comes to governance. Maybe not. It's unclear. That's part of the decade that has been 2025. So far is right after the fires, we're dealing with this chaos. There is quite a bit of chaos. A lot of people asked about it. A lot of people asked about - Yeah, I mean, listen, you know, I'm sort of two minds on this. You know, I get a lot of emails from people and messages saying, thank you for being a sort of safe harbor away from the political discourse that's out there.

39:12Like what I like about your show is I tune in because I need a break from that. And the minute the issue of politics is raised, not only is it inflammatory and sort of, kind of alienating for a lot of people, it sort of violates that sort of sacred trust that people have come to rely upon with this show. But at the same time, the countervailing perspective is, what is the point in having a big platform? Like what is the responsibility that then you then hold to kind of speak truth to power and kind of do the right things that use it to do what you think is right and responsible right now. And those two things I feel like our intention.

39:54So I don't know what the solution to that is, but I would say that I guess my way into it is not to, dive into all of the particularities of every issue. There are other people more equipped to do that. But there's a lot of wild shit going on right now. And for a lot of people, it's destabilizing and it's anxiety producing, and it's confronting us with, again, uncertainty and fear, right? And how do you navigate that? So there were a bunch of questions around like, how do we get through this period of time when it feels like we're dismantling the federal government, or there's this broad expansion of executive branch powers, judges are being ignored.

40:41We've got Doge doing what Doge is doing. There's the deportations issue, anti-Semitism is on the rise. There's, they're ceding the groundwork for a third term, like a lot of stuff. And like the new cycle is so insane that you can't help, but like get caught up in it, get kind of agitated by the whole thing, depending upon your perspective. And really the only thing that I feel like I can really speak to and provide value on is like, how do you kind of emotionally regulate throughout all of this? And look, there's the easy pickings in this, which is like curate your media diet. You don't have to be addicted to the news.

41:25You don't have to be up to the minute on every single thing that's happening. Like a lot of this stuff is sort of by design and intended to agitate you and distract you and distance you from kind of living your life. So, I think it's important to just ground yourself. If you need to remove apps from your phone, do that. Turn off cable news, invest in real life experiences, call up a friend, engage with the people you care about and exercise a little bit of self-care. And also I think it's important to like know your triggers, either avoid them or find a way to develop resilience so that you're not triggered.

42:11Now you and I were talking about Adam Grant the other day, his book Think Again, he's got this paradigm instead of being a prosecutor or a preacher or a politician, you're best to inhabit this kind of mindset of the scientist, which is to approach conflict and ideas from a perspective of open-mindedness and curiosity, like to be kind of excited to find out that you're wrong or to kind of stress test your ideas, et cetera. And maybe that's a way for people to think about like how they approach difficult conversations or ideas that are getting thrown at them that perhaps they disagree with or find kind of emotionally charging.

42:53Or even just to cope with this information that is coming in, even just as a coping mechanism. Like hold your ideas a little bit loosely. We all think we know what's right. Every man is right from his or her perspective. And like, maybe we don't know, you know, and is there a way to kind of feel comfort with, you know, receding a little bit further into the background for your own kind of self emotional preservation? Yeah. You know, I have this one tried and true tactic a tactic whenever things get crazy and it's, I don't always do it, but I rely on it quite often. Show great concern and do nothing.

43:37Or don't just do something, sit there. Yeah. That's the opposite of good advice. Actually, you know, it's sort of like, I think there's a lot of people who get, they get agitated and then you go into like reposting mode or like reply guy stuff. And you feel like you're doing something, you're not doing anything. No, you're doing nothing. You're basically engaging in self-harm. You're not accomplishing anything. So if you do feel compelled to be part of what you might believe to be the solution, then do something towards that end. Like do something actually in the real world that would advance that idea that you feel is important.

44:14Well, it's such an overwhelm, right? All these things are happening at once. And it's like you said, it's like this dominoes are falling and we are easily triggered. Cause we're, first of all, it should be said that, Elon Musk did do Nazi. I mean, I'm a Jew who loves Nazi movies. We've talked about it on the, like, I love that. I'm a student of that era of history, partly because it was the liberation kind of narrative. But I know a Nazi salute when I see one. So when you see that, it triggers, but he's not meaning it necessarily in that way. He wants to trigger, right? So when you're dealing with this, like the news is triggering, everything's triggering.

44:55but I think it's important to also like understand the dissonance that is happening as well, because it's not like everything that's happening is bad, but it feels bad because of the way it's happening is bad. But like, I wasn't a fan of RFK necessarily, but he is the first guy that I've heard of in my life that has gone up against the food companies telling him, we don't want this kind of food in our system anymore. He, like we were talking about pharmaceutical ads. He's trying to deal with that. Like all these things aren't necessary. There are bad things happening, but it's not all bad things.

45:30So when you hear about like that happening, like RFK thing in particular, you're like, okay, that's interesting. And when you hear about tariffs, well, I remember when, like I was an activist when, you know, the WTO protests were happening in Seattle and everyone was against globalization. All the environmentalists didn't want it. None of the unions wanted globalization. Everyone was saying, this is gonna be the worst thing ever. And a lot of bad has happened. and a lot of good has happened at the same time, but they were trying to pump the brakes on it and they didn't like it. And now you have an administration who actually is trying to end it in its own weird, wacky way.

46:05And so like, is it all bad? Like it is important to take the scientist's approach is my long way of saying, because not everything is happening because of the way you, even that dumb salute, you don't know why it's actually happening. So it's different. It's like, that's the dissonance that's crazy. And so I don't think it's bad advice to say, you have to take a beat and you have to like tune in with some modalities that are gonna help you get through it. Cause it's gonna be never ending. It's gonna be one after another after another. And I was saying this to like, like April was kind of stressing about this before the inauguration day.

46:43Like I went through that in the last administration with Trump where I was angry the whole time. And I wasn't gonna be that. Now I'm the guy that keeps an eye on the news because I feel like you do have to know like if prisoners are going to like psycho prisons in El Salvador, like it's crazy. It is crazy. By the way, that El Salvadorian president is a crypto bro and he's got crypto beach out there. There's all these weird dissonant, you know. And they have these like super prisons there. Yeah, yeah. And they have them because El Salvador was a gangster state. Like normal people couldn't get through the day.

47:15That's how bad the gang problem was there. So then this guy comes in, goes super hard line and now is in with crypto bros and the Trump administration. So like, I guess the point I'm trying to make is we try to solve a problem and a problem is solved, but new ones crop up in the most bizarre ways. And that's kind of like the weird dark side of evolution, right? Like life evolves and things evolve and civilization evolves in ways that are confronting and wrong a lot of times, but we have to live through it. So I guess that's - Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of crazy stuff that is going on, but there's also a lot of talking and we don't know when that talking turns into action or not, right?

47:59And I think in the context of like RFK to your point, like, yeah, like I'm not gonna buy into all of his stuff, but the one thing that I can get on board with is his perspective on big food and big pharma. Like these are topics that have come up, since day one on this podcast. Finally, there's a guy who's got a lot of energy around him who seems intent upon not only doing something about this, but actually getting people interested in it, right? Which I think in and of itself is interesting. And that doesn't mean that I'm down with like beef tallow or like a lot of his other stances that are very controversial.

48:39But here's one for you. And it goes to that topic of like not knowing, right? It's sort of the consequence of unforeseen circumstances that illustrates the difference between like talking a big game and actually governing, whether it's Doge getting in there and dismantling things maybe they shouldn't have that are causing a bunch of kind of tangential problems as a result. With RFK going after big pharma, I believe he said like, he wants to make it illegal for big pharma to advertise on television. We've all had that experience of watching pharmaceutical ads. They're incessant, especially on like cable news.

49:20It's one after the other, where two thirds of the ad is dedicated to all the side effects. And it's comedic at this point, right? But those ads sustain mainstream network television, right? Like if you, like I'm totally on board with getting rid of big pharma doing ads on television. I think it's criminal that that actually exists, but that is the business model. At this point. So if suddenly that becomes illegal, like that there's like, I don't know how, not just like CNN, but like Fox News, Fox News is contingent upon that, like to survive. So if that happens, or if that's on the horizon or being threatened, how long before Rupert Murdoch picks up the phone and calls Trump and says, you can't do this.

50:07You know what I mean? Like we gotta keep Fox news going. The only way we keep it going is pharma. So these are the, this is like, this is just an example of like, when you get into the nuts and bolts of like, actually trying to solve a problem or governing, there's all these other factors that come into play that you quickly realize like, oh, this is more difficult than it appears to be. Right, well, I mean, it's like, it's kind of like that old line, you know, be careful of the unintended consequences of good intentions. Yeah, that was the one thing I was trying to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like even if you're doing something good and it's the same, it's reversed the same thing, like this globalization and the Clintons were behind globalization, right?

50:48That was that whole thing. So, you know, I guess ultimately it's, to me there's like, it comes down to, are you making the world a little bit kinder, a little bit crueler? Because we're so minuscule in the grand scheme of things, not to say our actions don't matter, because I do think we're here once and this is for all intents and purposes, this is it. And so you gotta make it count. But to me making it count, the ledger is, are you making it a little bit kinder? Are you making it a little bit crueler? Now, some people would think me naive for having that as my ledger, but that is my compass, right?

51:25Because like a lot of people would be like, no, it's about efficiency or get the most you can get or whatever, I mean, you see it the way our society runs, but to me, it's really basic. It's like kinder or crueler, what are you gonna do? And we all have a million times, chances a day to answer that question in different ways. And I'm not saying you have to choose the kind choice every time because it's impossible, but that's kind of the needle I'm trying to move in my life. And so you can still do that in this crazy time, in this crazy year. And it's kind of the only way to get through these kinds of crazy times in my opinion.

52:01Yeah, if you're struggling to find hope or some energy around optimism, like I think like meditation and mindfulness is really key in that regard. Like if you're like right now in this exact precise moment, is anything different than it would have been, you know, if somebody else was like, we're not affected in this moment, right? Like everything is fine. and we're breathing air, we're healthy. We get to do this thing, we get to have fun. The more you can kind of ground yourself in the present, I think that's the pathway towards, you know, recognizing like a little sliver of beauty, hope and optimism in life.

52:44And I would say to kind of end this chapter,

52:50as podcast champion Ryan Holiday is fond of saying, it's just not that hard to not be an asshole. Yeah, I love that. The more I see of him, the more I like. There's a lot of assholery out there. And it's like, would it be that hard for you to not be that way? And maybe we can reflect upon that in terms of how we comport ourselves. In this era. All right, Adam. Yes, sir. Did I mention that I had a psychedelic experience? Wait, what? I did. I think I heard about it. It was on a podcast and it was also, So you did tell me a story once just briefly, I wanna hear more about it. So I did share this publicly in the recent episode with Annika Harris.

53:37It felt right because that was a conversation around the nature of consciousness, which is my utter like obsession and fascination these days. She did this incredible audio book, audio documentary called Lights On that everybody should listen to. It's really quite fabulous.

54:00And so she felt like the right person to kind of share that story publicly. But if you haven't listened to that episode, I'll tell a version of that here. And if you have, sorry, like tell the story again, but I will contextualize it by saying that I, so this was in December, I went to Mexico City for the purpose of taping this thing with on with Elmo. Right. So that all took place in Mexico City. They, it was with a brilliant ad agency called Flower Shop. There was a whole production crew, like this was all part of their new soft winds campaign with Elmo being kind of the ultimate avatar of like softness, you know.

54:51Can I say, when you start out in the wilderness a podcast where no one has ever heard of a podcast. And then you end up in an on ad with Elmo. The only thing to do after that is a psychedelic. You're already living this. I know. Well, that's why I'm telling this story because the juxtaposition of these two things, you know, like in proximity to each other. Yeah. To be able to have the, like when the opportunity arose, like, do you wanna do this thing? I was like, I couldn't raise my hand fast enough. I was like, are you kidding me? Like that's a once in a lifetime, you know, opportunity experience to have.

55:24Like who doesn't wanna hang out with Elmo just for a day or whatever. I only wish my kids were younger so that they would kind of appreciate it. I mean, not that they don't now, they thought it was funny, but it was a really cool thing. They thought it was cute, but they would have been like through the roof. Yeah, and it was really fun. They rebuilt the podcast studio to a T in this like warehouse. And we shot for an entire day with like a, a real director and Dolly and the whole thing. And Elmo is a, it's fascinating. Like it's a whole nation state, Elmo. There's like three, it takes three people to operate Elmo.

56:03Oh really? And this one guy, Ryan, who does his voice, who's like a brilliant improviser, really funny guy. There's a groomer, like there's a stand that Elmo goes on and like there's like a, there's an eye mask that goes over his eyeballs when he's not being, you know, like, when he's not on camera. He's a real diva. Yeah, it's a whole thing. And it was just so much fun to like do that. You were acting, I wasn't even interviewing you. There was a script and then we kind of would go through it and then we would riff, but there was only one camera. So we had to do like the wide and the reverse and the, you know, all the angles.

56:38So we were going through it a bunch of times. And I would say the best lines were the ones is that Ryan kind of came up spontaneously on the spot. And so that was a super treat. But because we were in Mexico City, we have a friend of a friend who like knew this medical doctor who specializes in these types of experiences. And so it was just a timing thing that we happened to be there and this person happened to be available that it seemed to line up for me to do this. Now backing up, this is something I had thought about for a very long time, something that I've changed my mind about and something that through the experience of hosting so many people on the podcast became apparent to me that I needed to kind of like adopt the scientist mindset and be a little bit more curious about it because I'm, if anything, I'm like a 12 step indoctrinated person.

57:42you're sober or you're not. And when you tell someone like me that the answer to all your problems lies in a very powerful mind altering drug, that's scary and dangerous. And something I had decided a long time ago with respect to psychedelics, like not for me. I'm sure, and I would know, I would see and hear stories of many people whose lives had been benefited from this. But I just thought like, I'm gonna have to find another path, but then it was like the universe just kept putting, I would have guest after guest after guests and the purpose of these guests was not to come on and tell me about their psychedelic journeys.

58:17It would just come up like ancillary to something else they were talking about. And so all of that seeping into my mind and then Michael Pollan's book and then his Netflix series, like all these things kept happening and it just became undeniable that this was worthy of deeper investigation. And I've been in this process of trying to heal some childhood trauma stuff and make peace with my past and find a way to alleviate some of my unnecessary suffering and resentment and my challenges around like gratitude and like love and intimacy and all of these things. And I just thought like, perhaps this is a tool that could be beneficial with that.

59:02So I decided to go forward with this and have this incredible experience that was a combination of MDMA and psilocybin. It was like a six hour experience. And it really just was, I would say the most profound single event experience in my life that over delivered in every category of what I thought it would do. Like my expectations were very muted. I thought in my mind, cause I'd never had any experience with psychedelics before. where I thought maybe I'll have a, repressed memories will be unlocked or I'll have some conversation with my young mother or some way of healing, like my connection with my past or something like that.

59:54And instead it just kind of said, well, that's cute. And let me show you this instead. And my head exploded and I entered the tesseract and time and space evaporated. And I was in this cycle of death and birth and the complete dissolution of ego and the complete breakdown of identity and the barrier between self and everything else and this sense of oneness that you can't describe in words, but I can't stop thinking about ever since. Love is a word. It's true, it's a word. It's a word, but what is it? That's what you felt, right? Yeah, but it was also scary. Yeah. It took me like all the way to the edge of, it's a flirtation with madness at times, I think.

1:00:48Like I went as far as I could go and I had glimpses of wondering whether maybe I didn't wake up that morning and I was in some kind of afterlife or perhaps I had imagined my life, but was in fact somebody like locked up in a padded cell living in my mind, you know what I mean? The whole time. Yes, and you had blinders on, right? So yeah, I had an eye mask on and there was a soundtrack that was like, quite intense at times. There was a body work piece to it that really kind of like in the sort of final third of the experience that like deepened it. And when I emerged out of it and finally kind of, I was so glad to be like back in a body.

1:01:32And I was in this person's home where it took place. And this person has like a big library of books, like hundreds and hundreds of books. And I'm looking at the books, you know, as I'm kind of returning into my physical corpus, you know, And realizing like book after book after book was written by somebody who had been on the podcast. Like I know that guy, I know that person, I've read that book. And like, it was insane, like how much it tracked. And then I thought, and I said this to Julie, I was like, I have this idea that I'm this podcaster out in the world and I've read all these books and I've met these people and I know them, but I'm now starting to think maybe I've never left this room.

1:02:20And I'm looking at these books and like, verbal Clempton in what's that movie? The Usual Suspects where he makes a poll, like it's all a story. He's taking it off the bulletin boards. I've imagined that I've like, you know, read all these books and talked to all these people, but I've actually never left this room. You know, like that's the kind of scary piece to it, but it was pretty expansive. And I'd been really exploring this idea of non-dualism in my meditation practice, this idea that consciousness is something that lives in your head. Like who you are is kind of like in here, right? Like between your ears and disabusing you of that.

1:03:06Like that's just another appearance in consciousness, this sense or this feeling that you're in your head. because you actually have no head,. like that's sort of the non-dual, like kind of notion, right? And it's such a difficult idea to get your head around. Like, what do you mean? Like I am me, like you have your sense of self, right? And to try to inhabit any kind of connection with the idea that that is an illusion is almost an impossible leap that this experience allowed me to get a taste of that I've then taken back and incorporated into my meditation practice in a really profound way that has stayed with me.

1:03:46But I think that the part of the reason I bring it up is because it gets to like notions of identity. Like I am a 12 step person and I'm sober and I have this much time. And that time is important because it's a defining attribute of like who I am that comprises a part of my identity. And to have an experience like that is to kind of shatter your identity. but then when you piece it back together, like what does that mean in the context of me being like a quote unquote sober person as part of a community that has a perspective on how you define sobriety. Like do I reset my clock? Do I not? I took a, I voluntarily took a mind altering substance, right?

1:04:38So under the strict kind of like rubric of 12 step, I guess that means that I start my days over. But you weren't a drug addict. But I think - You were an alcohol, you were drinker, right? You're like, yeah, but you're, that doesn't, yeah. But that doesn't mean I can be California sober. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? It's like mind altering substances are like off the table. Like, and it's a very binary thing. Okay. But I think with this experience, like, and that was something that maybe even in the lead up to this experience was scary for me. Like, what will that mean about like, what happens when I go back to that community?

1:05:18And I have to like, be honest about that. Like, do I get shunned? Am I then looked at differently? And I think this experience, like having that like dissolution, that sort of ego death and dissolution of self has put me in a place where it is like quelled the people pleasing tendency in me. And it's like, I honestly don't care. Like, that's not my business. It's up to them. If other people think that that should be the case, I'm totally fine with that. Like their perspective or opinion is none of my business. And I actually feel like, okay about that. Cause I do feel good about having made that decision.

1:05:58I don't have any regrets and it's quite the contrary. That's cool. It's like, you know, there are people using ayahuasca to get over it like opiate addiction and things like that. And I don't know what the success rate on that stuff is, but like what you're bringing up is, when you fundamentally start to engage with your consciousness and your identity, you can leave a big experience like that. And it doesn't have to be a psychedelic experience. It could be some crazy near death experience or whatever. You can shed a skin and come out of it. Not necessarily a wholly different human beings, you're not wholly different, but with a different perspective that can guide you subtly.

1:06:38and, but profoundly. Yeah, so it sounds like that's what happened. Yeah, and it's not like something that I'm like clamoring to go do again right away. Well, you did tell me you're gonna introduce me to this doctor in Mexico. I will. I think I will do it again. I think I have more to learn there, but it didn't trigger that like addictive thing where there's like a craving. I think that's the difference. I've, you know, it's been a long time since I went in the psychedelic, into the psychedelia and I've never done it in this clinical setting, which is this new way of doing it, right? Like this newer thing where it's like an accepted medicine that you can, which is what oddly enough, Timothy Leary and Ram Dass were trying to do.

1:07:25They were like wanting to begin there. In the fifties, they were doing it in a lab kind of more as a study, not as a, they were, but there was a guiding component to it. I'm pretty sure. I've spent a long time since I've read about those studies, but it wasn't like they were feeding, they probably were, they hadn't mastered the dose and they were messing with people to some degree to understand it. But it's funny that it's coming back into a, not the lab, but the clinical setting. So funny, peculiar, funny, good, like kind of an interesting return in a way. I think it's pretty undeniable at this point that there are very real positive benefits from appropriate medically supervised use of certain compounds in certain contexts, whether it's PTSD or depression or addiction.

1:08:09But I also think it's important to say that, you know, I'm not in a position to recommend this to anyone. And in fact, you know, quite the contrary. I probably spent five or six years thinking about this before I did it. And I don't think it's for everybody. And I think that, you know, you really need to do your research and be prepared if this is something you're, I mean, it was so powerful. I had no idea, like it just completely exploded, like a certain frame that I'd always applied to the world. And, but it left me with a deepening of my fascination with the nature of consciousness itself. Like, I don't think there's anything more interesting than trying to understand the nature of consciousness.

1:08:53I think it's just an utterly fascinating rabbit hole to go down because it conjures not only science, but philosophy and faith and the nature of reality and quantum physics and all of these things. Like I said, I told Annika when I was in it, it felt like I was simultaneously in interstellar and inception at the same time. Like in Inception, you're going down, you're trying to, you're going down those levels, right? You keep going to a different level until you get to like the snow castle, right? And in Interstellar, you're in that Tesseract where there are, you know, an infinite number of realities that are available for you to kind of, like every moment is an opportunity to enter, you know, a different reality of yourself.

1:09:45Yeah. but that is an amazing allegory for like the truth about every moment. You know, it's true though in small ways, not in big ways, but yeah, it's true. It's like, you know, it is, you know, we were talking about it yesterday, our neuroplasticity hardens after we're 25 years old. Maybe in some way, these substances allow you to revisit the plastic nature of reality. You know what I mean? But in the ultimate, then you come back out and you're back grounded in the earth. And how do you then take it? Because I think, I mean, I started experimenting with psychedelic drugs like any California college student would, dropping acid on college campus and then walking for miles to wherever you end up.

1:10:35But I came out of it with same, this intense experience of oneness, the very first time I, and that has stayed with me, that has guided me. And I've had experiences of that without psychedelic drugs since then, but I don't think it would have been possible if I hadn't taken them originally and had that original experience. So I have had like, I mean, I remember, I've had long versions that lasted a couple of days where I felt the oneness of the world like at my fingertips and was like riding a high. And I've had little moments where like someone was pouring water into a glass and it just like hit me like I was being poured into the glass.

1:11:14But I don't think that would have happened. This is years after taking psychedelic drugs. But I don't think it would have happened if not for the first time having that first big, it's like a Shakti pod almost in a way. It's like a Shakti pod experience. That's a good way of framing it. Yeah, it just fractures everything, which is why it's hard. But then to me, the best experiences on that, your brain is basically fractured, like that test rack, like you're talking about. And then all of a sudden at the end of it, it kind of coalesces and I'll, if it's a good experience for me, it always ends up in love.

1:11:49It always ends up in, I'm a pagan at heart, right? It always ends up in earth and love, you know, like nature and love. So maybe we just need to dose this administration. I think Elon is dosing himself. That's true, he's overdosed. The results of that are unclear, but yeah, Yeah, I mean, I would say also like, I still have this allergy to like, I think we both know a lot of people who like do too much of this stuff, right? And that becomes like all that pursuit of like, of ego death and like disabusing yourself of the illusion of self creates a different self and a whole identity. Like you can craft a whole new identity around that.

1:12:40You can have an addiction around that, right? Yeah, of course. You're doing the work, the quote unquote work. Okay, what does that mean? And I think that can be, I've seen it become problematic for people. And also like all the costuming around it, like start wearing long robes and things like that. It's like, that's not me. I had one experience, it was profound. I'm sharing my experience. I'm not advocating for or against this. It turned out to be quite profound and beneficial for me. And that is not to say once again, that this is something for everybody. No, well, I mean, the great, the big story is Ram Dass, who was like, you know, in those early Timothy Leary experiments.

1:13:26And he ends up, he thinks he's like found the secret to life, which is take this, right? I mean, you know the story better than me, but take this acid, this is gonna, you'll find the real nature of reality and it'll guide you home. And then all of a sudden he ends up in India and meets people who don't need the piece of, no need the tab, right? Well, when Bhagavan Das leads him to Neem Karoli Baba, Bhagavan's the guy who not for nothing said, be here now, not Ram Dass. That's how it ended up. It's the title of his book. So when Richard Albert, you know, goes to India, when he gets booted out of Harvard and he's walking around trying to find, you know the meaning of life, he's out of options.

1:14:13He isn't meeting anyone, it's not working out. He's getting ready to like pick up sticks and go home. And he encounters Bhagavan Das. He was like this kid from Southern California who, you know, was like a surfer guy who had the dreadlocks and is walking around India barefoot. and Bhagavan's like, come with me. And they, he takes them ultimately to, after they do this long walkabout Neem Karoli Baba. And Alpert, it was Neem Karoli Baba who gave Alpert the name Ram Dass. But Alpert, if I have the story correct, gave LSD to Neem Karoli Baba and said like, check this out, you know, like, and as the story goes, Neem Karoli Baba took it like a massive hero dose or whatever and like nothing happened because he's already enlightened.

1:15:01He's already inhabiting that higher state of consciousness. You know, when I first started practicing yoga, that's kind of when I stopped even playing in the psychedelic realm, like I stopped. So it's kind of interesting how that works because ultimately you have to, it's good to know kind of the nature of yourself in reality, but ultimately you have to contend with it on its terms. So it's not a tool to use to deal with reality on a daily basis. It's like a scope that you have to then take what you can and you just got to move forward in strength. That's kind of how I always thought of it.

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1:17:15All right, you wanna talk about adolescence? Dude, first of all, I could barely sleep last night after watching one episode of adolescence. Like it was so, it is the most tense kind of like nervy show. I think it is brilliant. It is brilliant. I mean, you know so much about it and I wanna hear what you have to say about it, but like you just turned me onto it yesterday and I heard about it and I knew it was good. The subject matter scared me because it was like, I have a four and a half year old and this is about like troubled 13 year old kid and like the worst trouble ever. And so I was kind of, you know, I wasn't interested in like putting my brain there and man, but it was quite an experience and now I'm hooked, hooked.

1:18:00Yeah. There is no other way to describe adolescence other than just God-tier television. It's unbelievable. And I will say that Roll On is like, one of the main reasons I like Roll On so much is it gives me this opportunity to like indulge the audience with my, you know, content streaming TV and film takes, you know. They're not beyond takes, bro. You go deep, you know this stuff so well. Secretly, I wanna just be hosting, you know, like, the show that I, the podcast that I listen to, the most, or there's two, is The Watch and The Big Picture, which are both regular shows about TV and film. I love those.

1:18:45Those guys are the best at it. But I think I secretly harbor this desire to host like a film and television podcast. So maybe down the road, I love doing this. Hopefully you'll enjoy this. But the reason I wanna focus on adolescence today is not only because I think it's better than basically everything else out there at the moment. And it's the show that everyone's talking about. We got a lot of listener questions about it. It's mainly because the themes in this echo, many of those that recur on this podcast. Yes. At this point, unless you're hiding under a rock, you've probably heard of this show or already watched it.

1:19:27I think we should do our best to not overly spoil it. You're like two episodes in, it's four episodes, as I've completed it. But for those that don't know, Adolescence is a Netflix limited series. It's a four episode exploration of this 13 year old boy who's accused of having murdered a female classmate. It's utterly riveting. It's emotionally devastating. It is storytelling at the highest level of art and technical proficiency and social commentary. the character performance, the pathos, like there is not a false note in this entire thing. It's extraordinary. And it was co-created by Stephen Graham, who also is a co-writer and co-lead.

1:20:14He plays the dad. Yeah, it takes place in England, like Birmingham or something like that, right? Yeah, Birmingham or I think Stephen Graham's from Liverpool, but not in London, right? Steven Graham is a like lauded character actor who's been around forever. He was in Gangs of New York, Band of Brothers, Peaky Blinders. He has this great story. I don't know if it's apocryphal about how he got his start which was when Guy Ritchie was casting Snatch. And I think as the story goes, like a buddy of his was auditioning and he accompanied his friend to this audition where I think they were just auditioning like people in Liverpool or whatever, like, you know, like average, you know, normal people or like kind of less experienced actors.

1:21:00I might have that wrong. Anyway, Guy Ritchie looked at Steven and said, are you the next audition? Are you auditioning next? And he's like, no, no, I'm not, I'm not here for that. And Guy Ritchie said, I like your face though, like show up on Monday. And that's how he got his start. He didn't even have to audition. Yeah. He's also in Tinker, Taylor, Soldier Spy, which shout out one of, I think that might be my favorite all time spy movie up there with one of my all time favorites of the century, Michael Clayton. I love Michael Clayton. Which I watch like twice a year. I love it. It's just a masterclass in every regard.

1:21:35Also a movie with not a single false note. Yeah. And not for nothing, this is a little bit of an aside. If you're into kind of Tinker Tailor, soldier spy, like trade craft spy movies, This is the greatest time ever. If you're like dad core about this, like I am, there is so much incredible stuff out there, you know, in this terrain, if you're into the CIA or the MI5 or the allies, there's the agency. Remember when we talked about Le Bureau on the podcast, which was this French series about the DGSE, their intelligence service. Well, they remade it with Michael Fassbender. Oh, right. That's what that is.

1:22:21That's what the agency is, right, right, right. It's pretty allegiant to the original series, but with a lot of money and like this incredible cast. And it's set in London in the, like the London office of the CIA. And it's incredible. And no one's talking about it. No, well, that's the problem with, I mean, we'll get back to the show, but that's the problem with this overly contented era. There's just too much content. There's so much out there. Like Michael Fassbender, one of the great actors of our time is the lead in this extraordinary series right now. And I haven't heard anybody talk about it.

1:22:58Nobody talks about it. Like some stuff rises, adolescence rises, White Lotus rises. It's kind of like akin to, it's partly because there's no rhythm to the TV schedule like there used to be. And partly because it's just like the streaming wars is like the aftermath of the streaming wars. but like for instance, The Day of the Jackal, great novel that's been, is getting remade, right? As a television series. Eddie Redmayne, yeah, it already aired. It's unbelievable. It's so good. Eddie Redmayne is like, you know, just going full bore. And that series. Cate Blanchett's in Black, I mean, Cate Blanchett's like the greatest actor alive or something and she's in something.

1:23:33We have, so in the spy genre, the agency, then there's Black Doves on Netflix with Keira Knightley and Ben Whishaw who played Q in Skyfall. He's like, that's it's... Then there's Black Bag with Michael Fassbender and Cate Blanchett, like Fassbender again. And this is a Steven Soderbergh movie that's out right now. Day of the Jackal, Slow Horses, Lioness. Even the bad ones like The Recruit and The Night Manager on Netflix, still like pretty good if you're like a dad like me. You know what I mean? Anyway, this is like a divergence away from adolescence. Like if you're into this genre, like it's a good time.

1:24:09Anyway, so adolescence, Stephen Graham, co-creator, co-writer, Phil Berentini, director, who Graham had worked with. They did a movie called Boiling Point and a series called Boiling Point as well. And Jack Thorne, who's the co-creator and co-writer. And together this sort of theater troupe of extraordinary talents, you know, created something really special. And the conceit at the center of this is the one-shot format. Each episode is told in, each of the four episodes are told in one hour meticulously planned, single take continuous one take tracking shots, which are called oners. So the camera never stops, right?

1:24:51And each of them, each episode is this really convention defying standalone piece of theater, a story within a broader story that slowly unveils like how this boy ended up in this place that again, and is executed flawlessly, no false performances, no false notes. And the one or conceit can go either way, I think. In many cases, I think it's misused because it's sort of show-offy, like look at how cool I can be with the camera. But when it's integral to the themes and the characters and what the piece is trying to say, I think it can be masterful. Like we think of the opening shot in the player or the Copacabana scene in Goodfellas, is like those are kind of very memorable kind of one-ers.

1:25:41But I think adolescence is the best use case I've ever seen for this technique. It's the most expanded. I mean, you've never seen this before. It goes everywhere and you're, it does take you out of it at moments because you're like, how did they do that when you wanna stay rooted in the story? Because there's a couple, like they're going in windows and there's like, you're like, whoa, like how did that happen? But I think it's masterful because at all times it's serving the characters and the narrative and the verite of all of it. Because it's seeming to say that like, life is really about the moments in between.

1:26:18And when the camera never leaves the characters, a lot of what you're seeing is in the in-between. And when you watch the first episode, you're like, can we speed this up? Like, can we just get to the part where, and you're like, oh no, it's about like, what happens in between when you're there and you end up in that other place. And also it doesn't give you a break or the ability to look away from the really difficult moments that it's forcing you to confront. So the technical is really serving the narrative. And amazingly from a technical perspective, they had, from what I understand, they had one day per episode to shoot.

1:26:58So the one day to shoot an entire one hour episode and they would have 10 chances to get it right. So they could go through it 10 times and hopefully, cause you have to go on an entire hour without a mistake. You get to like almost the end and something screws up. Right, or they have various outs where they know like the characters are - They could do a cut. You can say something wrong or you can, there must be a way, I'm not saying they cut, I'm saying there must be a way, I'm not saying they didn't get it 100 % right to the page, but like there must be a way, like if the camera went a little bit off where it's supposed to be or the characters came out, Maybe that ends up being the take they like, in a certain way.

1:27:37I'd be curious, I don't know the answer to this, but usually there's techniques where you can like swivel a camera such that - They could cut it. You can do a cut in there and like mimic it. So it looks like you didn't cut. And I would suspect there probably are a couple of those in there. I can't imagine they would go and maybe they did, I don't know. But the rehearsal must have been incredible. But yeah, I mean, it is like theater, it is like theater. And it brings up, like I said, like a lot of themes that come up on this show. I mean, first and foremost, the relationship between teens and tweens in the internet, it does this masterful job of really elucidating the shadowy world of communication that young people engage with that adults can't begin to understand and the vast and destructive power of it that we kind of all underestimate that Jonathan Haidt talked about on the podcast and Scott Galloway is always talking about.

1:28:38And it also leaves you with questions, but not answers. Like it doesn't really land on like, here's who's to blame, or it's this person's fault, or it's this institution that we should hold culpable. Kind of everyone's to blame, but no one single person is to blame for this set of circumstances that creates like this tragic event. It's interesting, like the phone is ever present in the school episode. You see it and you see the tension between the adults. I mean, there's a little cynicism in the public school representation that these kids go, that they exist in. I think it's probably a version of reality, but I couldn't stop thinking about the anxious generation when I was watching it.

1:29:27It's like, it's right there. And the one thing that the Anxious Generation, it talks about, I'm not criticizing, because I think it's a groundbreaking piece of work. I think it should win. I mean, to me, it's like one of the great gifts from academia to the pop culture era, one of those books that is seminal. But because of the way the evidence works, the data is more there for what it's doing to young girls. and he definitely talks about the impact on young men. But if you read the book closely, the data doesn't pile up to show young men are having the same level of consequences as young girls when it comes to teen suicide and things like that.

1:30:11And this, even though the young girl dies in this, so obviously she suffers the most, but I think what you take away here is young men and the struggles of young men. And so there are people out there talking about, Galloway is talking about this a lot. So not to, there are people out there doing that, but to me, it just shows, it's like Jonathan Haidt meets Galloway in terms of where the focus should be of society's ills. Like this is the place we should be looking. And not for nothing, they're both professors at the same university at NYU. I mean, they're colleagues, right? But I think you're absolutely right.

1:30:48This is at the core of adolescence is something to say about the vulnerability of young men. And when you look at violence, addiction, self-harm, all of these things have escalated precipitously for this cohort of people. And when you look at the statistics, it's pretty crazy. I mean, seven out of 10 high school valedictorians are girls. Girls are graduating college at twice the rate of boys. Young men are three times more likely to overdose, four times more likely to commit suicide. 14 times more likely to be incarcerated than young women. And not surprisingly, 98 % of all mass shooters are male.

1:31:29And this is not to say that we shouldn't be celebrating the advances of young women. Like this is a fantastic thing, but clearly there's something going on with young men in which they're suffering in a profound way. And there's plenty of root causes for that. And you could spend hours kind of parsing all of that, But I think what adolescence does so beautifully is it doesn't point its finger at any one thing. It's basically saying everything is contributory to this. And when you mentioned the school, like the teachers are like, I'm a zookeeper, like it's chaos, right? It's chaos. So there's the institutions, there's the educational institution, there's the judicial institution, there's the mental health therapeutic institution, and there's the family institution.

1:32:17Like what is the role that parents play? And there's an episode that's kind of really all about that, which seems to say some version of like, it's not all your fault, but you're not off the hook either. And could you have done this better? Or could you have done that better? Sort of like these parents are not bad parents. They're good parents who did the best that they could. They overlook certain things. And in the aftermath are kind of looking back in the rear view mirror and say, should we have done that? Should we have done this? But I'm so much, like my dad did this to me and I didn't do that.

1:32:49Like we're all better than what preceded us, but what's right in front of us that we're overlooking. And what's in front of us that we're overlooking is those in between moments, right? It's like being passive in the midst of like the person who's scrolling right in front of you and not knowing what they're actually looking at and making that decision to like not engage with like the reality of what's occurring before your very eyes. Right, well, we are in some ways more advanced in terms of how we handle emotion and things with our kids than our parents were. I mean, this is a vast generalization, but in some ways.

1:33:28But what's different is the landscape is completely like a fun house mirror. And so like the laws of physics don't apply because there's this other world that we don't understand and that they, and there's rooms in it, we don't go. And so we can be, have more tools and be, psychologically and emotionally more equipped to handle. And not all of us are, but we can be, and still strike out in places. And cause that's just human nature and that's probably true anyway, but it's especially true now in this, when there's a fourth dimension. Yeah, and in that dimension, the fluency in kind of emoji encryption and what those things mean that speak to bullying and the manosphere and incel culture, like all of these things are sort of probed in this series from the perspective of adults that have no understanding of it yet is so much a part of these young people's lives and how they kind of make sense of the world and what drives their behavior.

1:34:42And we say they, but like, we are they, we were that. And I remember how lonely it was, you know, like even a good childhood in adolescence is very lonely at times. Like you're - But it's very, it's qualitatively different now when everybody has a phone in their pocket where, you know, everybody's talking about everybody else. Right, right, right. You know, and they're doing it in that mean spirited way that only adolescents can. Right, well, I guess what I was trying to say is that we carry a level of shame in adolescence. Like one of the beautiful things about being with a kid Zuma's age is the self-awareness and shame isn't there yet.

1:35:19And so you can see the purity, but the shame is gonna come. And in adolescence, like pre-adolescence and adolescence, it really peaks because it comes in tidal waves and you don't know how to manage it and you don't have the tools and you don't want anyone to know how you really feel, even your friends or your parents. So that's what I meant by loneliness. And that was true, I think when we were growing up, but it's worse, like you're saying, it's worse, the ramifications are worse. It's on steroids, right? We're running this mass experiment and it's happening, you know, right, it's happening in our homes.

1:35:54Like the idea that's sort of advanced, you're not there yet. This kind of comes up in the fourth episode with the parents, you know, kind of reflecting on this and doing an inventory on their own parenting. And thinking like, we did a good job, right? Like, didn't we, you know, like, we got him a computer when he wanted it. And because he was home thinking like he's safe, right? But not really understanding what's happening in that room, but because he was under the roof, like everything is cool, you know? And realizing like, oh, that's not the case. And this gap between thinking, you know what's going on, like the sort of interior lives of teenagers will always remain a mystery.

1:36:39But to the extent that like there is something to be said for the communication and the involvement of the parent in whatever that kind of discourse is that's going on that is creating and driving so many of these, you know, unfortunate mental health and at times violent outcomes. It makes me really happy to see the new pod on the Voicing Change Network. Ask Lisa. Ask Lisa. Like I texted her and I said, please do an entire episode devoted to adolescents. Like this is like, I've never seen anything more up her alley to discuss. And the fact that this is like the number one show on Netflix and in the UK, I mean, it's huge here, but in the UK it's massive right now.

1:37:31And it's already having a kind of impact that John Heitz book had here, right? In terms of like driving change. So like even the, even Starmer, the prime minister is calling for screenings in parliament and schools. Thorne, the co-creator is calling for a digital age of consent to ban smartphones under 16. Like there's a lot of kind of things that are actually happening downstream. And that's the power of art, right? Like this is art at the highest level. It's something that has something to say that is very timely and of the moment. And whether you're a parent or not, you probably have contact with some young people who are struggling in some regard from some version of the malaise that these young people are experiencing and as demonstrated in this show.

1:38:23It's heavy shit, man. But it's so well done. Like it's absolutely captivating. Episode three, which you haven't got to yet, and which I'm not gonna spoil, is probably one of the finest hours of television I've ever seen. It is pure theater and acting excellence. And I was astonished to learn that Owen Cooper, who plays the 13 year old boy, not only was this show his first acting job, that episode three was the first one that they shot, which is essentially him in a room with somebody else It's talking the entire time. And it is absolutely riveting in the range that this kid shows in his acting skills.

1:39:06I mean, you're seeing like the next Leonardo DiCaprio, like this kid is gifted his first acting job on the first day of the first episode of this thing. And he absolutely like hits it out of the park. It's unreal. Unbelievable. Fear, innocence, rage, power, misogyny. I mean, the other piece here is the misogyny. And there's a lot to be said about the perspective of the women in this show. And again, I don't wanna spoil it, but whether it's mother to daughter or this therapist in episode three that has to engage with not only this kid, but also another worker in this mental health institute, observing the dynamic between that other employee and this therapy, like it has so much to say without saying anything about what women have to experience every single day that plays into the behavior of this kid.

1:40:04It's just, I'm obsessed, dude, so good. There's also a great video on YouTube on the making of the show. I'll link that up in the show notes, but it's pretty cool. And I think it's only like, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes or something like that, it's great. Thank you for turning me onto it and ruining my next week of sleep because I can't sleep after watching this. But listen, you will be better for it. Zuma, this is the time. Like, you know, my youngest is 17. Like I see this played out and all the parents who have, you know, young people who are in the same age bracket, like you're so lucky that you're getting schooled on all of this stuff in advance.

1:40:48We're not in the Petri dish. We have a chance to escape the Petri dish. You do. Yeah, we have a chance. And it's gonna be work. Yeah. It's gonna be work. Well, one thing is April really is into Waldorf education and I'm seeing it up close. I'm into it too. It just happens to agree with also with Zoom a sensibility. So it's like a nice mix and there's no like, in some public schools, you're still getting an iPad for kids in like first grade or something like Waldorf. There's nothing like that. And so hopefully we have a chance, there's gonna be some bumps and bruises. I mean, I told April about adolescence and we watched the trailer.

1:41:26She goes, I am not in on that. She's like, she was like, she wants to watch Megan make tacos for her girlfriends in Mendocino. That's what she wants to watch. And you know what? We could do a whole podcast on that TV show alone. That's not a bad TV show. Not a bad TV show. That's where she's at. Before, before. I understand that. Yeah, me too. Julie doesn't wanna watch adolescence for different reasons. Like, you know, it's traumatizing to watch. It's not a light thing. No, no, no. And you know, my own media diet has been, you know, White Lotus is like the first series in a while we got into again, because like I was back into like high maintenance, which is, I love high maintenance.

1:42:08To me, it's one of my favorite television shows ever. You know, it came out years ago. It's like the weed dealer on his bicycle. And he goes, you get slices of life in Brooklyn. and this was in the, I think it came out like 2010 or something like that, I forget exactly. Maybe it was more recent than that, but, and I love that show. So I was watching that and just watching the Lakers and watching, you know, the Americas came out, a great nature doc that Tom Hanks is narrating. Like that's the media diet at our house. And then adolescence, it's like a different experience, but it's like so visceral.

1:42:41I'm into it, I'm into it, I'm into it. Well, the takeaways are, not only is it a must watch for parents or anyone who's a caretaker of young people, I really think it's something that everybody should see. Especially anyone who has the opportunity, who's not a parent to get involved in the life of a young person. Like a lot of it is about the lack of strong role models. And to the extent that it might motivate you to become a role model of a young person in your life, that would be a net positive for society as well. Yes. I also think, I found it personally to be an incredible conversation starter with my kids.

1:43:24Like I had a long talk with Mathis, our 21 year old about it. Like she was onto it even before me, watched the whole thing, we gotta talk about this. And I was saying to her, this is a lens into a world that you understand that most older people don't, like how accurate is it? Like, what is this like? Do you feel like this is really giving voice to something that you've kind of always understood to be the case? And yeah, it was like, we had this amazing conversation about it. So I think it's great connective tissue as a topic of conversation with like the young people in your life. Interesting.

1:44:08And like the Ask Lisa podcast, perfect time for it. Like people need this stuff. My friend Adam Dodge has that tech savvy parent kind of business where he's trying to educate people on what's happening to their kids in this world. Ask Lisa is kind of helping, you know, like to be able to have a resource, like a love line was a resource, but a resource for parents, a place to go to ask questions. That's why I'm excited for that podcast on the network because it's important. Like it's like - She's the best at it. She's so good. We need it, man. We need it because we are in the dark and it's almost like it's shame transference in a way.

1:44:44It's like the adolescent is feeling this heavy dose of shame because it's kind of nature, but also the world or the way we structure things. And then the parent kind of gets it by osmosis because like, yes, some parents are honest with their other parents about problems, but sometimes we're not, you know, like sometimes we wanna keep, cause we don't wanna expose, this is what's happening with our kid, not necessarily for judgment, but we don't want the kid to be judged. And so it's like this weird swirl of judgment where there's just not a lot of transparency. And so, this podcast could help a lot of people.

1:45:18Yeah. No doubt about it. What else you wanna talk about? Oh, well, White Lotus, I love White Lotus. White Lotus is a good time. Yeah, it definitely is an indulgence. If you want a cocktail and kick it by the pool and make fun of wealthy people. You know, you could just feel superior watching all these horrible people behave badly, you know. I'm enjoying it. You know, like I miss, for those who don't know, I spent a lot of time in Thailand. I did cover Thailand for Lonely Planet for many different parts of it. I've driven up the coast from Malaysia to Burma and back. I've been lived in Phuket for periods of time.

1:45:59I've been in Bangkok many times. So watching this, I've got friends there. it's like makes me wanna go back, you know, it makes me want, I love it there so much. You know, I lived in Maysot on the Burma border for a period of time. So it's fun for me. Like I know that some people like the chat was that season three is kind of not as good as one and two, but that's not my experience. I love it as much partly because of the location and partly because look, I mean, that Sam Rockwell, if you haven't seen it episode five, that's like maybe the best monologue of all time, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:46:32I mean, there's a lot to love. I'm not bagging on it, I really enjoy it. I think this season is a little bit different because when you take Jennifer Coolidge out of the equation, you're not gonna get a lot of that type of humor. You can't replace her, right? So the tone of the humor shifts a little bit. And I think just from a structural perspective, it's been a slower build towards like the chaos that you know is kind of around the corner. You make a good point. And so every episode it was like, well, these characters are kind of in the same place they were last week having the same conversation.

1:47:10And you know, it's, you know, you're inching towards something happening, but I sort of got progressively a little, like let's just get on with it. Like we've already seen a version of this conversation already. Why are we doing it again? And it's the volume slowly getting turned up and like Mike White is a genius. I trust him. Like he's earned my trust time and time again. And he knows, he is so masterful as like a satirist of kind of culture, like it's amazing. And all of these people, I think one of the reasons why it's so good is the characters that he writes, we probably all like know people who kind of fit them.

1:47:50So there's a relatability, like, oh, I know that person. I know that, I know who that, I know exactly who that guy is or whatever. And so we have experiences with those people. And so we create this like parasocial relationship with these various characters. And we wanna see the whole thing implode. But he's so good, like his dialogue on Buddhism, like the stuff he can speak so intelligently about Buddhism. He can nail every bit of corniness, the corniness of the expat in Thailand, the corniness of the rich family from North Carolina, of the, like his eye for detail on how insipid humanity can be is remarkable.

1:48:33And his dialogue is just incredible. And you know, it's funny, when I was reporting on the Burma story of the displaced people in current state on the Burma side of the Burma border of Thailand, at one point I had a meeting with one of the main guys in charge of delivering aid to all the different aid organizations. Basically USAID, which has gotten in the news lately, was giving money to this organization. And it was like, it was in the millions and tens of millions of dollars was this budget and going out to different areas to service these refugee camps and displaced people. And I ended up sitting down, he knows I'm there.

1:49:13I was there for men's health and he knows I'm there as a journalist. And it just goes into this weird kind of, it wasn't Sam Rockwell, but it was in the ballpark of his like sexual deviancy in Thailand and who he was with, you know, like, and I'd met him in different, like social occasions a couple of times prior to that, but he just like opened the curtain on the guy he really was. And I never forgot that it was so wild. And so like everything you see is just like, obviously turned up to 10, but like, it's there, you know? Yeah, it's true that people go there for that reason, right? I mean, the first joke that I laughed out loud at this season was when the joke about like, he's the bald guy, all the bald guys, you were like, you know.

1:50:06And the performances are great, yeah. And I think the fact that he chose to set it in Thailand and allows him to ask bigger questions this season. Like, it's identity, right? Like the whole Sam Rockwell thing is like, what is identity, who am I or whatever? And I think all the characters are asking themselves some version of that. Like, here I am in my life and like, you know, who do I wanna be, who am I? And to what extent does this identity that I have, like hold me prisoner or hold me back from who I could be? And how about Sam Rockwell, the roles he chooses? Like, I don't know how, I would love to just hear him talk about how he ends up like in Jojo Rabbit is like the reluctant Nazi or in Three Billboards or like this role.

1:51:00Like, you know what I mean? It's, he picks the most interesting and then he shows up and it takes, always takes me like 30 seconds to figure out who he is. You know what I mean? Oh, I know who he is immediately. Like I knew, wait, who's that? What's his name again? I always forget his name because he's the character to me. But in the case of White Lotus, he's married to Leslie Bibb. So it's sort of like, we could have seen that coming, I guess. And he's buddies with Walter Goggins. Oh, are they like, yeah, you could see those guys hanging out, like partying together. How great is Walter Goggins?

1:51:30I know. Walton. Walton. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. As always, yeah. I mean, he's - Sorry, Walton. He's quite something that actor. Yeah. On Monday, a podcast will go up between me and Maria Shriver. Oh. Which we recorded a while ago. We recorded it, I think a day or two before the season premiere of White Lotus. So no episode had gone up yet, but her son is Patrick Schwarzenegger, who plays a pretty indelible character in the show. And I gotta say is crushing it. I think he's doing an unbelievable job. Like he has taken this opportunity and like turned it up to 11. 100 % and he's his own actor. There's no, you know what it reminds me of?

1:52:19But he is like, I heard Bill Simmons talking about this. Like there is a charisma that you're gonna have when Arnold Schwarzenegger is your dad and you're part Kennedy, you know? And he's able to like carry that swagger pretty well, but also make it his own. Like he's doing protein shakes and getting buffed up, but he's not like trying to be his dad. Like he is his own thing. He's almost like, God, why am I spacing on this major actor he did, Bradley Cooper. He's got some, I mean, it's a deeper experience. It's a deeper show and a deeper character, but like it's kind of like that Bradley Cooper in Wedding Crashers character for him.

1:52:57And look what happened to Bradley Cooper. Yeah, that was, yeah. I mean, he came, he crushed it in Wedding Crashers and then he really made the most of that opportunity and turned it into a career. or the first time that you saw Brad Pitt on screen in Thelma and Louise. Well, yeah, but he was likable, but like here's an unlikable, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's likable in his unlikability. But he's so charismatic. I mean, if you haven't seen that, go watch the Brad Pitt, Geena Davis scene in Thelma and Louise. That's an old timer. Yeah, as soon as you see that, you're like, wow, that guy's gonna be a movie star.

1:53:35Like you just know it immediately, right? Anyway, kudos, Patrick Schwarzenegger for crushing it. Yes. We gotta get out of here, but I will say a couple quick things before we end. I got a question about the telepathy tapes. Have I told you about this? This was a astronomically successful podcast series. Yes, I've heard of it. It supplanted Rogan for a while. It was like the number one podcast. And it's all about these nonverbal autistic people who quite possibly have telepathic powers. Like, this is wild. Like, this is the craziest, most engaging podcast series I've listened to in a long time.

1:54:25Like, it is really a great listen. It's fascinating whether or not there's truth to it or not. Like who knows, you know, it goes to the nature of consciousness and all these sorts of things that I'm interested in. But I had Kai Dickens on the podcast. So that episode is coming up. It's gonna air April 28. We had a great conversation because a question came up from the listeners about the telepathy date. So trust me, I'm on it. I've heard amazing, amazing things. And I think that's it. There was one question. There was one audience question you didn't get to is how to get unstuck if you feel stuck or when you feel stuck.

1:55:03Mood follows action. Do something. Yeah, if you're stuck, you have to do a pattern interrupt. You have to do something. And when you feel stuck, you don't feel like doing anything different. But the only way to get unstuck is to upset the balance. And the way you upset the balance is by taking a contrary action. And when you don't feel like taking a contrary action, you have to remind yourself that mood follows action and that you have to develop the reflex to act in spite of your resistance or emotional baggage around it. And the unstuckness is a byproduct of the action, not the other way around.

1:55:40So I think it's identifying one small thing that you can do that perhaps isn't so intimidating that you're gonna resist it forever and is just doable enough to get you over the hump because the unstuckness only gets unstuck by doing something that will unstick you. You know what I mean? What do you do? This is a Dr. Seuss book. No, but you know what? It's true. It's like, for me, it's a mental game first, right? Like being stuck is a state of mind before it's your reality. And yeah, so changing up the routine, I guess is hard when you feel stuck, But if you just do one thing, you know what I did once when I was feeling kind of like lost and stuck is I decided to jump in the ocean every morning, rain, you know, and I think it started like in the new year, like January one.

1:56:34And so it was like cold water though, I was looking for. And this was before I was ocean swimming or anything on a regular basis. And so I would walk from my apartment in Santa Monica to go jump in the ocean. I was like trying to make it as a writer. It wasn't going well. It was like, I was staring at my eviction notice phase. and that kind of started, next thing you know, I'm an ocean swimmer. So that's a great example of exactly what you're talking about. Just do something. It's a pattern interrupt. You took a contrary action. I did. Yeah. Also, just the idea of being stuck is, you said it starts as a mental construct, but it's basically a story.

1:57:14Like, what does that even mean? It's something you're telling yourself and affirming as true, but is it even true? Like, can you deconstruct that story? What is the evidence to support you being stuck? And perhaps there's another story that you can tell that begins with taking an action that somebody who isn't stuck would take. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. You know, it's interesting because we didn't talk about it, but Bonnie Shoy's new book coming out. On muscle. On muscle, it's her follow up to Why We Swim. Another champion of the pod. Another champion. You should lift it up, show the people this thing.

1:57:54I think it's her best book so far. I haven't read it yet. I can tell you have, it's dog-eared. Yes, one of the, it's basically it's as in true Bonnie fashion, it's a deep dive into a subject matter. In this case, it's muscle and the physical body. And it's also a memoir about her relationship with her father who was kind of a great athlete. He was a early bodybuilder and a great artist. And then her parents separated and her relationship became distant. And it's about all of that because Bonnie is a tremendous athlete herself, great swimmer, great surfer, just to, and you can read through how she became a great athletes obvious.

1:58:33And her brother is also athletic. But then it's also deep dives into different characters, There's different protagonists dealing with muscle or their body in some way. There's a paraplegic yoga instructor. She talks, she spends a lot of time with. She spends a lot of time with the guy who, you know, the guy that jumps off, jumps into Lake Michigan, does flips in Chicago into Lake Michigan. You know that guy, he became like internet famous and she spent the same exact deal, pattern interrupt during the pandemic. And now his job basically is to jump into Lake Michigan. He's got fans everywhere.

1:59:10But to me, it's like in terms of, I liked why we swim a lot. So this is not to put down any other books. That's a good book. But this I think is her best work so far. All right, on muscle. And it comes out this month. Excellent. Yeah. Shout out Bonnie. Cool. I think we did roll on, did we do it? We did it. Do you feel good? We did. I feel good about it. I'm just happy to be here. Like I don't need to know when the next one is. Sooner rather than later, most likely. We'll see how this one goes. We'll see how it plays. Who knows, you know, back to uncertainty. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, no, it's good to be here.

1:59:45It's good to be in the new space. It's exciting times. So 2025 has been a long run, but there's good stuff coming this year. Right, yeah. Given the decade of experience that we've had in the last, you know, couple months, it might be 20 years before we do another roll on. Yeah, like in two weeks. Yeah. All right. All right, man. See you soon. Peace.

2:00:11That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything.

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2:01:20Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by David Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

2:02:13All right.