ROLL ON: American Tiger, Adventures Abroad, & The Art of Showing Up

27:17Whether they're cleaning the public bathrooms or they're a taxi cab driver or whatever, it was very evident. That is a cultural thing that we don't have here, which was super nice. I loved it. It was a lot different than I expected in certain ways, having been programmed my entire life to believe that all of Tokyo is so crowded, you can't move around. Everyone's smoking all the time. It's not like that. Certainly there are crowded areas, but I found it to be incredibly livable and rather delightful. Man, I've only spent nights there at different times. When I used to do the Indonesia beat a lot, I would go back and forth through Japan, and there was a flight you could take LAX to Bali or Jakarta.

28:08that it would basically, Japan Airlines just made you stay the night, and they'd put you up in a Narita hotel, which is kind of far from the city. But you could take the bullet train into the city. You're there in an hour, and you just go have fun. And a couple times, I spent two nights there just in Tokyo. But that's all I've ever done. Yeah, you've got to go back. I've got to go back and do it. I want to go back. I've got friends over there. Yeah, I've got the freedivers. Oh, that's right. I've got the freedivers over there. There's a big freediving community. There is. They're fabulous.

28:37we're brought to you today by seed i have hosted so many microbiome experts on the show over the years and the more i learn about this very complex aspect of our physiology more fascinating it becomes to me but there is one thing that is simple a happy gut is the foundation for a happy body and a happy life and to get there requires care requires intention it requires a daily gut but health-promoting ritual that, for me, begins with SEEDS DSO-1. Two-in-one probiotic and prebiotic formulated with 24 strains that are clinically studied and proven to survive the digestive journey. It's been shown to increase good gut bacteria by 400%, but it goes beyond just the gut.

29:26DSO-1 supports your whole body. It's formulated to reduce abdominal bloating and intermittent constipation in as little as two weeks. And I can attest to noticing personal improvements in my digestion, in my energy levels and overall gut comfort. So go to seed.com slash Rich Roll and use the code Rich Roll20 for 20 % off your first month of DSO-1. So I constantly find myself in this situation, a situation I suspect many of you can relate to where almost every day it seems I'm being pulled in a thousand directions. Too much to do. But I need to not just show up for it all, but show up with my best self, with clarity and with purpose.

30:11And I will lean into anything that will facilitate that in a healthy way, which is exactly what Nandaka by Peak is designed for and why it is my new favorite coffee alternative. So what is it? It is a nootropic adaptogen blend built for focus, and calm energy without the crash. No low-rent mycelium fillers, just 100 % fruiting body mushrooms. The legit high-quality stuff, like Lion's Mane for cognitive support, Reishi and Chaga for your nervous system, plus ceremonial-grade cacao, rich in anandamide, the Bliss molecule. They've added fermented probiotic teas for gut health and cacao butter that delivers nutrients right where they're needed.

30:59So this isn't about chasing another caffeine high. It's really about nourishing your brain at a cellular level with organic plant-based ingredients. For me, the energy is clean, the focus is steady, and it really does help me with my creative flow. Genuinely enjoyable, smooth, earthy cacao with this subtle spice, very tasty, and basically a daily ritual I actually look forward to. And right now, you can get up to 20 % off for life, plus a free starter kit, including a rechargeable frother and glass beaker. Head to peaklife.com slash richroll to try Nandaka and feel the shift for yourself.

31:45So that was great. And then I went to New York and my intention was to - You came back straight to New York, right? I went straight to New York, yeah. Yeah. was to really focus on the book that I'm working on right now. But that got interrupted by some family stuff. As I've mentioned before on the podcast, my mom has dementia right now. And we've been trying to figure out how to best take care of her. And there have been fits and starts with getting my parents into assisted living that have, at the last minute, kind of fallen apart or they've backed out of. And my dad is sort of living, has been living with my mother trying to take care of her on his own.

32:25And it's just an unmanageable situation because she really needs help that he can't provide. And this has been going on for a long time to the point where it's starting to get dangerous. During their 80s. And I was in D.C. before I went to Tokyo and got a real taste of what's actually going on and realizing this has gotten dire and needs to be addressed. And I don't want to impinge upon my dad and his autonomy and make decisions on his behalf about how to live. That's for him to decide. But it was clear that he needed some help here. And so I went from New York down to D.C. and have been in D.C.

33:09for several days. And the long and short of it is that I showed up to really help solve this problem by getting my mom into a memory care unit in Washington. And so it was a very trying and difficult, emotionally draining week that, you know, was tremendously sad and challenging and difficult, like for my dad, for my mom, of course. She's in a state where it's not that she doesn't recognize me at all, like it takes her a minute, but, you know, she doesn't really remember that I'm married or that she has grandchildren. If you remind her, she'll kind of clue in and you're not sure whether she is pretending or whether she really knows.

33:53And because she can't really remember anything from one minute to the next, like my dad has been having to manage this and he can't really leave the house. Or if he wants to do something with her, it just becomes an incredibly unwieldy thing. And like a lot of people who suffer from this condition, she's prone to angry outbursts and paranoia and thinks that everyone's against her. And he's kind of suffering in silence and has been for a long time to the point where, you know, it's almost like elder abuse, honestly. And it's dangerous because, you know, she was starting to wander out of the house and she can't really quite dress herself.

34:32And, you know, there's a lack of dignity there. And also like a level of denial on some part, like it's fine. You know, it'll be okay. And it's like not okay. So I had to kind of insert myself to move this thing forward. And what ended up happening was that we had to perform a bit of an Ocean's Eleven type heist to get my mom out of the house and into this place. And it was not easy. It was extremely, extremely difficult and draining. And so I'm kind of in the midst of a hangover from that experience. And as sad as it was, it really was the right thing for her. because she needed to be looked after in a way that none of us are equipped to.

35:19But also, I'm choosing to look at it like a gift that I was able to help give to my dad because now he still has some vitality left in him, and he's still at our house, and he can kind of live his life now. He needs some help, but on a day-to-day basis, he can function, and he's been suffering for so long. And now he has an opportunity to kind of, you know, do what he wants to do without feeling like he's been captured. So, yeah, it was tough. And, you know, we're at that age where this is life, you know. We're taking care of, like, life stuff. And I think the lesson really for me is that, yes, it's part of being an adult, But it's also like this is what you get to do when you're sober and you're clear minded.

36:13Like you show up for the people in your life that need you when they need you, you know, to be of service to them. And so I'm so grateful that I was able to be able to be there to help my dad do this. Because I could have easily been in Tokyo or it could have happened at a different moment or something bad could have happened. Or I could have come up with some reason why I couldn't be there. You could have avoided it. I could have avoided it. Or circumstances could have been that I couldn't be there or whatever, but actually I could. And so I was there and I'm really as difficult as it was and as inconvenient and like, you know, disrupted like this entire experience that I was supposed to be having.

36:52Like, this is what you do when you're a sober person. And I feel really good about that and very grateful that I could be of service in that way. and to help my dad reclaim his life and also be of service to my sister, who lives there and is kind of dealing with it on the front lines on the daily. So she's the one who's burdened with it while I'm out in Los Angeles doing what I want to do. So it was nice to be able to show up for that. They're in their 80s, right? Mid-80s? Yeah, my dad is only maybe a year older than the Peanuts guy at the Dodgers stadium. And my mom's a couple years younger. And they've been together like over 60 years.

37:36I mean, they've been together since high school. Must have been so hard for your dad. I mean, it seems like your dad and your sister are there, but they weren't going to be able to get to cross the finish line with this thing. And you came in. I mean, do you want to talk about like your relationship with them over time and how that complicates this even more? Yeah, I mean, my relationship with my dad is quite good. And this experience has brought us closer together, meaning just the experience of him trying to manage my mom over the last couple of years. So I would say that our relationship is better than it's ever been.

38:11My relationship with my mother has always been difficult and challenging and just fraught. You know, she's somebody who was never able to kind of see me for me. and I want to respect her privacy in some regard. So I don't know how detailed I want to get about it, but it's been a painful relationship with her for many years. And I've been trying, like I've been on this journey to try to find a way to have more compassion and unconditional love for her because I have a lot of resentment and anger about my emotional needs not being met. It's crazy to be like, I'm almost 59 years old, to be thinking about these things.

39:01But I bring it up because I think so much of the dynamic under which I was raised by her continues to impact my relationships as an adult, in the way that I interact with my wife and my kids. And because I've hosted so many experts in psychology and early childhood trauma and addiction on the podcast for so many years, I have a hypersensitivity or a hyper-awareness around the psychological issues at play. And I'm so determined to heal them so that I don't feel this way about my mom. And I can be liberated from patterns that inhibit my ability to experience more intimacy with my wife or to parent my kids in the healthiest way possible.

39:58So I think it is important. I think part of our job as parents is to interrupt unhealthy generational patterns so that we don't pass them on to our kids. I feel like that's a really important part of the job. And that's what I've been trying to do. But being with her in her demented state where she's reverted into more of a childlike state of mind has allowed me to do that. While also, at the same time, part of the dementia is just her more unfiltered. So I get a really clear picture. It's like, oh, this is what she's always thought. That's interesting. Right. You weren't imagining it. Maybe she never liked me.

40:45Man. It's like, I had this experience. I was trying to help her all day. And it was so difficult. And she's so combative and doesn't want to be around me. Like my presence antagonizes her. And I remember going to bed that night and I was like, my mom doesn't love me. He's like a grown ass man. You know what I mean? But, you know, it's interesting. Like if you, if you trigger her and she triggers, like, I wonder how much of it is like competitive fire, like that you have, like that you got you to the play, you know, cause like if you look at it just because we've been talking about, you know, we've been working on this other thing.

41:25And I'm understanding you a lot more. And I'm seeing like the aloneness that that brings when you're not sure if your mother is approved or even likes you. You know, like that's an aloneness there that is going to hover. And it takes work. I mean, that's what the sobriety, to bring up the sobriety, I think it plugs in right there. Because that's the beginning of, you know, you getting sober is the beginning of you looking inside, right? and figuring out where the broken bits are. And so I just wonder, like, you think about it, like, here's someone who's kind of competing with you in some weird way, diabolical way, which is not healthy and she shouldn't be doing that.

42:06But, like, you just think about these generations. And this is not to degrade her anyway because it's with compassion. Like, you think of generations of women who didn't have the options to be living and still not a fully equal society. I'm not trying to say it is, but there's much more opportunity now. And so you wonder how much of that played into the misery that people ended up in and then take it out on their family or their loved ones. Yeah, I think that's an astute observation. I would say that the competition aspect, that's probably more with my dad. Like I'll see my dad, you know, saying things where I'm like, oh, he's trying to compete with me, you know?

42:49Whereas like all I've ever wanted is his approval. All these things that I've done in the world are solely for the purpose of him saying, good job, I love you, and never quite getting it. No. You should have gone to Harvard, Rich. Yeah, I'm constantly reminded of that to this day. It's hilarious. But with my mom, I think the armchair psychologist in me, if I had to diagnose her, I would diagnose her thusly. This is a person who grew up in a household where her mom was a depressive shut-in. This is a person I know almost nothing about. Like, no one in the family talks about her. My mom never talks about her.

43:29My dad barely brings her up. But essentially, my mother didn't have a mother. There was something going on in terms of mental health with her mom. But this was a person who was checked out. So my mom never learned how to mother because she didn't have a mother to model it for her. I would imagine that must have had a significant impact on her ability to give and receive intimacy. Right. Because she didn't get it herself. To nurture, yeah. But she had an older brother and a father that I presume she became close with out of necessity. I know that she revered both of these people. Her dad, who I'm named after, and he's the guy who I talk about in Finding Ultra that was captain of the University of Michigan swim team and nearly made the Olympics and was an American record holder in swimming.

44:21This is like this crazy story in ways that my life sort of mirrored his. Anyway, he passed away from a heart attack when I think he was 56, and she was in college. And I know that was a traumatic experience for her. And then her older brother died in a tragic car accident. He was a lawyer. He was 40 years old in Grand Rapids. And I think he was coming home from a business trip or something like that. I know he had a 280Z, a Datsun 280Z. And I think it was a collision with a semi, like an 18-wheeler. Anyway, I remember vividly when he died, the grief that my mother experienced. It was just, you know, something that I'll never forget.

45:03And I probably was like, I couldn't have been older than maybe seven or something, maybe eight or something like that. But I remember her just being inconsolable and apoplectic from the loss. And she never sought or received help. So she suffered these two losses. She didn't have a mother. And so what do you do? She compartmentalized it. She pushed it down. She put on a happy face and got on with her life. But what you resist persists, of course. And so, her pain, I think, over time manifested in fear, like this fear that the world is an unsafe place. And if you care about people, they're going to abandon you and you're going to get hurt.

45:50So, be careful who you become connected to because then you're vulnerable. And she probably protected herself by not allowing herself to feel too close to anybody, while also having this control impulse, like wanting to make sure that the world was safe for her children and over-controlling me as a result out of a genuine desire to protect me, but ultimately ends up suffocating me. and then manifesting the thing she's most afraid of, which is that I'm going to leave her, which I had to to survive. I moved to California, and I had to get away from her. At the same time, I think there was some unhealthy attachment stuff going on.

46:39My job as a young person was to meet her emotional needs. She was a very fearful person and constantly needed reassurance that she was safe or okay. and I had to do certain things in order to make her feel that way. And I adapted to that and became that dutiful son who would do the things that she wanted me to do so that she would feel okay. And it wasn't until much later in my life that I realized that was a betrayal of myself. And so it's not a surprise that I ended up drinking out of confusion because I was living somebody else's life, essentially. And I don't think that she would have accepted anyone I married because my job was to be her...

47:22I was supposed to be the primary relationship for her. Right, right. So it's not a shocker that she's not a fan of my wife. And so this has been a very difficult adulthood, like trying to find a way to have somewhat of a relationship with her. We've gone through extended periods where we don't talk or she can't really be around my family. It's sad. There's a lot of sadness there. I think this is what happens when you have unhealed wounds or you refuse to acknowledge and work through these sorts of things. They spill out and they affect your relationships in ways you never intended. Of course, I'm sure she never would have wanted to be estranged from me or to not have a relationship with her grandkids and all that kind of stuff.

48:16But that's kind of how it played out. And that's why, to me, it's so important to heal whatever wounding I have so that I don't end up in that place with my kids. I have a different relationship with my kids, and I'm setting them up for healthy relationships in their own lives. So that occupies a lot of my headspace these days. and going to D.C. and just being in her presence, like, in this unfiltered state where I'm seeing her behave in an unbridled way, like, the clarity. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I can see it so clearly now, like, where she's coming from and what she really thinks of me and how that has impacted me, like, doing the math on that equation, which was liberating but also painful while I'm trying to get her into this facility where she doesn't really want to go.

49:06Like, this is somebody who won't go to the doctor. She can't. She's living in such denial. Like, it's in the same way that she denied her grief and her pain. She's in denial that there's anything wrong with her. She can't hear, but she won't go to the ear doctor to get a hearing aid. Even if you bring it up, she gets angry. And I know this is something that's normal with people with dementia, but I promise you that she would have reacted that way, you know, without the dementia. This is just the way that she's wired. And so the prospect of her being put in a home, like that's her worst fear, you know, and then that's exactly what happened.

49:41So there's guilt with that. And there's guilt that I know that my dad feels, but also a conviction like this, this had to happen, you know, like making peace with that. The emotional caught, like the, I'm just exhausted, you know, for days after this. So it's been, it's been very difficult. I'm sorry, man. But this is adulthood, man. It is. It's real. My parents are 81 and 79, and so we're not there, obviously. But you hear this, and you hear these tales of that's how these things go, is that people, as you get older, it becomes harder. And you realize you're at a place where it's your job to take care of them, and these decisions are not always clear-cut.

50:31Man, they're not always clear cut. Sounds like this was, but it wasn't. This was pretty clear cut. It wasn't, but yeah. One of the interesting observations that I made was how much the dynamic mimics alcoholism just without the alcohol. So I have this mother who's in denial, right? And she's behaving in ways that is creating chaos for everyone around her, but has no awareness of the impact of her behavior on other people. Like, that's not important. What's important is that her needs are met and there's no conscious awareness at all of just the toll that is being incurred by everyone around her.

51:16And then my dad, who is a very kind of avoidant personality, has that disposition. He's a wonderful man and I love him to death, but he just wants everyone to get along and it's easier to just say it's fine, you know, and avoid like the hard conversations or confronting reality. And so you could say that he's codependent in that behavior as an enabler, you know, and that's perpetuated the situation going on much longer than it would have otherwise. And I'm like, wow, this is just like this. Just this is just like an alcoholic relationship. Like, you know, the same way as somebody who would be married to somebody who's using drugs.

51:56Right. And they're like trying to like make it OK. But suffering and the addict's behavior is like causing chaos for everyone around them. crazy it's kind of an amazing thing but on the unconditional love tip like i just do this conscious meditation like before i go to see her every time and i'm like just you know it's just unconditional everything is like just your response to everything is just more love you know just more love more love like this is what the dalai lama you know is talking about right and it's like can i practice this when all of my buttons are getting pushed because she installed them?

52:32Can I be non-reactive and do the contrary action, which is just more love for everything? And so she could say the most outrageous thing. And I'm like, I love you, mom. And I kiss her on the forehead, which makes her very uncomfortable. And that's the only way to liberate yourself from all of this is to transcend it because there's no possibility for reconciliation. right so it becomes about your relationship with yourself and the dynamic not some understanding that you're going to come to with this person um that you have such a challenging relationship with yeah you have to you have to make peace within yourself with the circumstance i agree i mean i had a the only thing i can think of is you know my grandfather abused me and when i was first dealing with all that.

53:26Like when I first kind of started telling people about it and my family, like he ended up having a stroke like a week after and then was in a hospital and then it was like, and I had the opportunity to go see him, but I was like, I didn't feel like that was right to confront a sick man in his hospital bed like that. How old were you when that happened? I probably was like 27, 28. You know, I got some advice from Guru Singh, who was like, you know, write it all out and tear it like letter by letter and, you know, have a ritual with it. And he's like, you don't have to. His thing was you don't have to have these gnarly confrontations because the confrontation is within yourself and your relationship to the story and what happened.

54:14And, you know, because I got advice from some people, you should go have the big confrontation. Yeah. But he was like, but that's not I'm kind of more like your dad. Like, that's not really in my nature to confront people like that. Also, it's not it's not going to get you anywhere. No, it doesn't. You want him. You're going to want this person to give you something they can't give you. And they're and they're like stroke aside. Right. They're just. Yeah. Either way, it's never going to work. Right. Like that's how. Right. That's the problem we're all in as a society now is that like we we want to get something out of this.

54:46But you're never going to get what you want out of the confrontation. or very rarely. So, yeah, so I did that kind of, I developed my own relationship to it, which has been good over time. But like, I mean, obviously, it's a very different situation. I didn't mean to commandeer it, but that's, I just, my brain went there to like, you have to, because your mom isn't in a capacity to where you can have an honest discussion and try to unpack these things for both of you and for her as she gets older so she can kind of see things more clearly and at least understand. Oh, that would never happen. But even if she was in full capacity?

55:21No, no. Yeah, there's no possibility for that being successful. Right. So, yeah, it's about you and the story and your relationship to it. Yeah. Which is wild, man. Heavy. Heavy stuff, dude. You know what? You told me about this. I was thinking one thing I want to bring up is kind of just not to make light of it, but you were saying how nice this place was because my memories of these places are usually. My dad found this great place. Like, it's expensive, you know, but it's like, in terms of like what a facility like this could be, like, I'm telling you, I can't imagine there's a nicer version of it.

55:57In the old days, like, it doesn't matter how much you spend, it smells horrible in there. It's like, it's really depressing. And then the same is true with dorms. Dorms now are like MTV real world level. So, like, somehow these kinds of weird institutional. Is that true? I don't know anything about dorms. Yeah, dorms have gotten nicer at colleges because they're trying to recruit. So dorms and assisted living facilities are getting some bling. It's not as, you know, hostels too. Hostels are like, all the places that were like hell holes that you had to kind of go through at some point in your life are becoming like, I don't know, styled out.

56:31Dialed out. That's got to be a good thing, isn't it? I'm all for that kind of gentrification. I think it's good. So you're like bummed that you can't go to Indonesia and have, what was that, the beach that Leonardo DiCaprio did? He goes and he's in the hostel.

56:49I was thinking about, like you were saying, these people that work there, how amazing it is that they choose to do this with their life. These people are incredible. The level of patience that they have to have to just be in the presence of these people all day long and manage them. God bless these people, man. It's kind of amazing watching them because someone will get agitated. and they just know how to gently navigate them and change the subject. They were telling me, they're like, it's a lot like improv. It's like yes-ending people. Oh, it's fine here. We'll just go over here. Yeah, we'll take care of that in a minute.

57:28And then the mind resets every minute or so or whatever, so they forget whatever was agitating them. But it's just this recursive process. You know, I just, it's so draining and exhausting to be around. And these people have elected this to be their job, their vocation, you know, like it takes a certain special kind of person to do that kind of work. No doubt. So, and I'm grateful for these people because I know that they're, you know, like my mom is in good hands with them. So if they're listening, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, folks. Anyway.

58:09Today's episode is brought to you by Broca. You know what's funny? We don't often think of eyewear as performance gear until it starts to get in the way. And if you're like me, somebody who has contended with eyesight impairment my entire life, it's a very real thing without a real solution for athletes. I cannot tell you how many times I've been mid-run, constantly shoving my glasses back up my nose, tripping on roots and rocks because I couldn't see them or my glasses had fogged up. Or what about out on the bike where the treachery is obviously far more intense? Well, this is why Roca has been a godsend for me, approaching prescription eyewear from a performance perspective first, but not at the cost of fashion, I should say, helping not only people like me, but all kinds of athletes, including Tour de France cyclists and Ironman, champions with everyday frames designed for movement.

59:05Their secret is their proprietary gecko technology, patented nose and temple pads that grip even more securely when you sweat. No slipping, no distractions, and they're insanely lightweight. Most frames weigh less than a pencil, super light, even with prescription lenses. Beyond the function, the craftsmanship is next level. Razor sharp optics, durable construction, and a design that actually is beautiful and keeps up with you. So put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20 % off your order with the code RICHROLL at ROKA.com. That's R-O-K-A dot com.

59:45We're brought to you today by the wonderful folks at Go Brewing. Let me tell you a story. A few years ago, this guy Joe Chura rings me up out of the blue, and he asks if I'll fly out to Illinois and speak at this event that he was hosting called Go, which ended up being this really incredible weekend oriented around taking inspired action. Joe and I hit it off, but, you know, that was kind of that. And it wasn't until I ran into him a couple of years ago at Jesse Itzler's Running Man event that I realized that he had taken inspired action himself by creating this new enterprise that was also called Go.

1:00:19Go Brewing, in fact, which from Go has grown into what it is today, one of the most exciting revolutions in craft brewing. One of the many things that makes Go Brewing extraordinary is that they don't outsource like most companies. They handcraft everything from scratch in small batches. In fact, this commitment to quality has fueled their growth into one of America's fastest growing breweries, now in over 5 ,000 locations across 20 states and available online. The Salty AF Chilada earned the untapped number one non-alcoholic lager in the United States, and they're constantly creating pulled new flavors almost every month that pushed the boundaries of what non-alcoholic beer can be.

1:01:00Double IPAs, mouthwatering sours, all with zero added sugars and none of the junk. Hear that? Incredible stuff. The non-alcoholic revolution is here, people. I am proud to help champion it alongside Joe. So get on board by getting with Go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code RICHROLL for 15 % off your first purchase. Go.

1:01:35I've got to tell this story. We unpacked a lot right there. We were transitioning. You had to go to Dumbo. Should we go back to Dumbo and tell me what's happening in Dumbo? No, I got to tell you about my 40th high school reunion. That was also in D.C., right? We can't have a four-hour podcast here, but I got to tell this. The amazing thing in the context of universal synchronicities is that when I had to be in D.C. to manage this whole thing, it just happened to coincide with my 40th high school reunion. And like, what are the chances of that? Like, I would have ordinarily not like I'm not going out of my like, I'm not going to fly across the country to go to this thing.

1:02:14Like, I'm not really that close with anyone I went to high school with. And anybody who read Finding Ultra knows that I have a challenged relationship with the school that I went to. And, you know, that that period in my life, which is another thing in need of healing. You know what I mean? Like, I have all this pain and I have this story about it. Right. And here we are. It's like, hey, not for nothing. I know you're tired from dealing with your mom, but now you've got to go over here and do this. Your itinerary. Like the gods have handed you an answer. It's like some kind of spiritual rehab treatment situation that I'm in.

1:02:52And I'm like, all right, well, clearly I'm going to have to go to this. I can't be here and not go. How lame would that be? You've got to go. But I was dealing with my mom all day, so I didn't go to the school for all-day festivities or whatever. But I was on an email chain where there was discussion of, oh, on Saturday night, we're going to go to this restaurant. We've reserved a room or whatever, so just come here between 7 and 10. So I was like, all right, I'm going to go do this. This will be interesting. And it was in Bethesda. My parents live in Georgetown. I'm staying in Georgetown. I had my dad's car, so I drove to Bethesda, which is where I grew up.

1:03:29Which is across town. But now it's just up with... It's like a 20-minute drive or whatever. Bethesda is now like a city, though. When I grew up there, it was just a suburb. But now there's buildings everywhere. And this restaurant was in... I think it's called Bethesda Row. There's like a whole nightlife scene happening. Really? And all these restaurants and bars. And I see the restaurant. I'm like, all right, I got to park. I pull into this parking garage, and I just made a mental note. Like, okay, when I come out of the garage, I need to turn right and left, and the restaurant's on the corner.

1:03:58So I go into the parking garage, park, come out. I make the right. I make the left. I go into this restaurant. It's pretty crowded. It's a big place. But there's a back room where there's like, clearly there's a party going on. I was like, well, that's obviously it. I go back there and a guy gives me, here's two drink tickets and here's, you know, write your name on this thing. I put my name on my jacket and I go into this room and it's very crowded. And I'm alone. Like I'm by myself. and I'm mingling around, like walking around, like looking for a familiar face. Like 70 % of the guys are bald, but like, okay, so that's going to make it a little more difficult.

1:04:33But hopefully like, you know, somebody will recognize me or whatever and I'm doing a loop. I don't see anybody. I'll do another loop. And then it's that awkward thing when you're alone at a party and you don't know anyone and you're trying to like, you're like, how do I behave so I don't look weird? Go to the bathroom. and I'm like, I can't, why can't, like, I don't understand. Like somebody, I should be able to see somebody here. Right, right. And I do another loop and I end up facing, did I tell you this story already? No. So then I'm facing the wall and there's a class photo on the wall and I look at the class photo and it says, Walt Whitman High School, class of 2000.

1:05:11And I'm like, I'm at the wrong fucking reunion. At the wrong year. There's literally a high school reunion going on. This is a high school reunion party. It's just not the right one. I stumbled into the wrong reunion party. I also didn't notice the fact that I graduated in 1985. I'm 15 years older than all these people. That didn't occur to me. I'm looking at these people. Once you get a certain age, everyone looks old. I'm like, oh my God, I'm in the wrong. This is not the right party. Maybe there's another room in this restaurant. I leave that back room and I'm wandering around the restaurant.

1:05:50Maybe they're eating at a table. I'm looking at everyone eating. I go out onto the, there's a patio where people are out there. I'm looking there. They're not there. I'm like, what is going on? And I think, do I have the date right? Like I checked my email on my phone. I was like, maybe I had the wrong day. No, I have the right day. Let me try one more. No, still don't see anyone. I'm like, maybe I'm being punked. Like maybe like I'm getting bullied again. It was a setup. We're gonna get this guy to go to the other high school reunion. I'm like, what is wrong? Something is wrong, and I couldn't figure it out.

1:06:30And then I look around and I go, oh, this is a Mexican restaurant. And I think the restaurant that I'm supposed to be at is like an oyster bar place. I go, I'm in the wrong restaurant. I walked into the wrong restaurant. The wrong nice Bethesda restaurant. There's too much options. What's the matter with... And I realized when I came out of the parking garage, I went out... I thought I was going out the front of it the same way I drove in, but I went out the back. Oh, okay. And so I took the right and the left, which was correct, but it landed me at a restaurant that's on the other side. I was like, oh my God, you're such a dumb fuck.

1:07:03What is the matter with you? So I go over... So then I go in, I'm in the right place, and it's just 15 guys that I went to high school with. Actually, you know what? It was super nice. I ended up having like some really cool conversations. I mean, 40 years post high school, like you're kind of past the bullshit. Everyone was fantastic. And it was wonderful to reconnect with these people, many of whom I hadn't seen in a very long time. So was there instant recognition? Like you saw that guy? Oh, that's somebody haven't seen. Well, there was an email chain. So I already there were a couple of guys that I was like, I'm not quite.

1:07:37And then it kind of locked in. I had one embarrassing moment where I mistook somebody for somebody. I won't name any names about that. Like, I kind of stepped in it in one situation accidentally. But for the most part, yeah. And because what I do is public, like, they kind of know what I do. And they know more about me than I do about them. But it was actually super nice and quite healing. Like, I talked to a couple guys that, you know, in my mind, I had a whole story about who they are and, like, what they think of me. And of course, it's all illusion, you know. So that was interesting and healing in its own right.

1:08:15And I'm really glad that I went. That's cool. I've only ever been to my 10th high school reunion. I think you should go. You think I should go to mine? Let's see what's coming up. It would be my fourth. The next option is fourth. I don't think they do 35 or anything like that. I don't know. Maybe. Depends on. I think, well, I don't know. Sam O 'Han, class of 89. Maybe. 89. I mean, I will say this. Yes. It's helpful when you're happy in your life and you like what you do for a living. Right. And you're feeling fulfilled. That's a better way to go into a reunion. Than I went to my 10th reunion. No, I don't know.

1:08:51I don't know how you felt. But I'm just saying, for me, I feel good about my life. I imagine a lot of people, the prospect of going to a reunion, if you're not happy with your life or you feel like maybe you're not living the life that you wish you were or thought you could be, then the idea of showing up at an event like that is challenging. I bet it is. I mean, my 10th reunion, I wasn't necessarily on the track that I wanted to be on. I didn't hate my life by any means, but what I found was it didn't matter. Nobody cared because you end up having these speed... This is different now. there's 15 people you're going to have longer conversations.

1:09:31But, um, but what I found was, that was what was refreshing about it was it didn't matter at all what anybody was doing. It was just, people were happy to see each other. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the, and the conversations that I had with these guys, it had nothing to do with like, what do you do for a living or whatever? It's just like your kids and like, you know, it's like, no, no one cares anymore. Like, so it's like the lessons with my mom and memory care are about showing up sobriety service and the lessons with this are like not dissimilar. Like you show up, right? You show up and you realize whatever your bullshit story is, like I guarantee you it's unfounded for the most part.

1:10:12And unless you show up, you can't be surprised and experience closeness. Like I just had Katie Couric in here earlier today and we had this amazing conversation for two hours. And at the end of it, I said something like, what is your advice or what have you learned over your 40 years of talking to every amazing person in the world and having this storied career? And basically her answer was, happiness is about your relationships. It's about your closeness with the people you care about and the people that are happiest and live the longest, obviously like a Blue Zones thing, are the people who really foster and cultivate and care for their friendships and their relationships.

1:11:01And I feel like this reunion thing was a way of me beginning the process of not just reconciling my past, but also reaching out to people that I have a lot of history with and realizing that there's more connective tissue there and shared experience than you realize. And I left just feeling better about myself because I just felt more connected rather than disconnected from this formative experience in my life. So the lesson is like show up, you know, and don't be avoidant, you know, like my dad. Like, you know, walk towards the thing that makes you uncomfortable. And that's the only way that you can grow, but also be disabused of whatever narrative you have in your mind about what it means.

1:11:52It's so interesting because if you think about it, as kids, it's basically all a science experiment. Like, all life is just this weird science experiment. You're like, you know, we're sending Zuma to a certain school. We like the school, but he doesn't have any choice in the matter. Like he's just being put into a bag and shake it up with the other ones that have been. It's like and that's what happened with you and your classmates. It's like you got sent to a place and you had this weird experience and it was all the science experiment. And now at the end you come out and you're like, well, it's weird to be subjects in that experience.

1:12:24What was that like for you? And then you can have this connected. Like, ultimately, the stories, I think, that you're talking about when we get into stories about what our life was like and all the, you know, our dramas and our relationships and how people see us. All those stories are, like, these fake separators. When in reality, like, we have almost everything in common with every human being. You know, we have almost everything in common. And let's focus on like that one thing that I remember 40 years ago. Right. Part of it is that we've been subject to this bizarre science experiment called life.

1:13:03Right. And we're like and our reactions to it are probably more similar than different. So it's interesting. We're mad at all these people who just didn't know any better, you know, because the truth is the older you get, you realize no one knows anything. When you're young, you think adults, they've got things under control, and then you get older and you're like, no one really knows what they're doing at all, pretty much. And nothing freaks me out more than someone who thinks they know what's going on. Yeah. I heard there's a few people like that on the internet. Have you discovered that? On the internet, they know what to do.

1:13:44This will solve the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, man, so yes, I encourage you to go to your next high school reunion. I don't know what your high school experience was like, but you seem like a guy who probably, if I had to guess, you were a guy who knew how to get along with all the different kinds of groups. You weren't really in any one click, but you could maneuver, like you could hang with the athletes and then hang out with the potheads because you have a certain ease about yourself. And not necessarily class clown, but a disposition that allowed you to maybe not be a super popular kid, but a kid that everyone was cool having around.

1:14:29Is that it? I feel seen. Is it? Was that accurate? That is accurate. That's pretty good. Maybe I should be a psychologist. That is accurate. That is accurate. I don't know how, like, I definitely wasn't in the popular crowd, but I wasn't, like, yeah, I was one of those boundary walkers. I've been, like, that boundary walker type person my whole life. But also, you could show up at any of the parties, and it was cool. Yeah, yeah, I could go to the parties, but I often would rather not. But, like, the Samo High was different because it was so big. It was, like, 3 ,000 kids or something, like 700 kids per class.

1:15:03So it wasn't like one of those right out of like, you know, central casting kind of places where there's the losers and the jocks and all that. It wasn't like that at all. There was a lot of room for anonymity. And so there was a lot of us kind of that had little pockets and that kind of crossed over in different places. So I think that was one of the healthy things about Sam. We didn't have like the big bully culture. And I'm sure some people had horrible experiences that I wasn't aware of. But it was pretty, it wasn't, you didn't have to get, you know, you could avoid a lot of conflict if you wanted.

1:15:32It was just a big spot. But you're right in the sense that I had friends in different groups. And, yeah, you're 100 % right. All I know about Sammo, Santa Monica High School, is from stories that guys like Charlie Sheen and Rob Lowe and, like, Sean Penn. Like, you know, all these guys that became huge actors, Robert Downey Jr. Like, they were all classmates at Sammo High. Who did Rob Lowe go there? Like, around the same time. It was Sean Penn and it was Charlie Sheen. Estevez was Rob Lowe there, too. Rob Lowe is the best storyteller amongst them from the whole Brat Pack era. He even does a one-man show where he tours, and he just tells the craziest stories about those years, from high school into the St.

1:16:15Elmo's fire, when they were the Brat Pack and that whole thing. He's very good at that. They're really compelling. But there was something special about Sam Ohai at that period of time, because literally it gave birth to basically a whole generation of Hollywood. Yeah, it's crazy, huh? Because Malibu was there and Malibu wasn't coming. But Malibu wasn't a thing. Did you watch the Charlie Sheen Netflix documentary? Yeah, no, yeah. I've only watched the first episode of it. I couldn't stop watching it. It's so interesting that they had all that Super 8 footage of them being kids running around Point Doom.

1:16:54Because Point Doom, now it's super fancy. So, Point Doom, for people who don't know, is a neighborhood in Malibu that is very fancy. You know, lots of fancy houses. Well, Point Doom is like that rock. It's the promontory. Yeah, the promontory. So, it sticks out, and there's these beaches there. And, you know, if you live there, you get a key, and you can go and open this gate, and you have access to these beaches where, you know, you go down there, and it's like crazy who you would see. But that's for people that live there. It's not open to the public. Right. But it had always been a working class neighborhood until, I don't know, a couple decades ago.

1:17:30Yeah, Trankus. Maybe like 30 years ago or something like that. Trankus II, yeah. Yeah, Trankus II. And so Martin Sheen raises his kids on Point Doom. And it was just feral kids running around, riding bikes. And in the case of Charlie Sheen and his brother, Emilio Estevan, they had this Super 8 camera. And they were just making little movies themselves. And they had all this footage in that show. But Rob Lowe's around, Sean Penn's around. Chris Penn. Chris Penn, yes. They all grew up in that area, and they all went to Santa Monica High School, even though it's way down PCH, because there was no Malibu High School.

1:18:05Right, right. That's the same. When I was in... Malibu High didn't come until the 90s. Maybe it was the mid-90s, or maybe it was early 90s, I forget. I went to school with those Malibu kids, and so we would go out sometimes to parties in Point Dume, and Sean Penn says in the documentary, it's 100 % true, it was school teachers and contractors. There were the nice houses - There's still a couple of those houses in Point Dume, but they're few and far between now, because those houses get raised, and then mansions get built. And the same was true with the Palisades. We talked about the Palisades Fire, there was that same thing.

1:18:40So it was a different era, because in the old days, the money wanted to stay closer to LA, and Beverly Hills was kind of the fucking point. Yeah, who wanted to go up to Malibu? There was nothing going on up there. Right, right, right. And so, and I think, I don't know the reason that Martin Sheen chose it, but I know he's really deeply connected to that, like, Catholic retreat, the Sarah retreat. Oh, Sarah retreat. Yeah, so I don't know if that was— Was he deeply Catholic way back then? I don't know. I think, I kind of feel like he's been religious or something, but I'm speaking out of turn because I don't know.

1:19:08Yeah. But I know that's the kind of place that I know he's been known to go there in recent years. And so maybe that was something. But, yeah, so you see the Super 8. I always love that. like these documentaries that confine that footage, like that Charlie Sheen was making movies with Emilio Estevez. When they were kids. When they were kids. And their rivalry that they had. Yeah. One of the triviest things for me was like, Emilio Estevez was originally supposed to be the star of Platoon. And then the funding fell through, and then like Charlie Sheen got it. And that must have been like. He was the late comer.

1:19:42Because everything was set up for Emilio, like Breakfast Club and all of that. He had the early ascent. And then Charlie market corrected him a little bit, it seems like. Yeah, and then Jennifer Grey got Charlie Sheen the job. I know, that story is crazy. But what's also crazy is that he's alive. I know. That guy's constitution for drugs and alcohol is superhuman. It's unbelievable. But the interesting thing, I liked that he's just owning it and is not afraid to just tell you everything that happened. because it is an amazing document to see how this person survived this. And an interesting exploration of alcoholism, ego, insanity, Hollywood.

1:20:31It's an indictment of what happens when you're young and you have an addictive personality and you have power and money. I didn't realize that Nicolas Cage was his main running man. That's weird. That's weird. So you're only the first one. What you find in the second one, like Denise Richards, and then I forget who is, I guess would be his third wife because he was married really young and then he had Denise Richards. And what you find in the second one, and it's worth it, I don't want to spoil it, but like is that he's like, and you don't know what to think because he's obviously like he's an actor and like who knows how much of this is genuine or not, but it does come across genuine to me.

1:21:10but it takes you through that whole meltdown with the two and a half men. So the first one is like building up and it's the reminiscent. The whole like winning and tiger bloods, all that stuff. And it shows how weird that was. But one takeaway for me was this guy is like ex-wives still love him. And during the meltdown, you didn't get the sense that he was anything other than a bully. And like, you know what I mean? I got a real bully energy from him. He wasn't like, he seemed like he was very demeaning to people, But it was obviously he was in the throes of a serious addiction. So I'm not trying to place judgment.

1:21:43But that's how I felt. But then you and you watch this and they're like these and it could be a show. But like it seems like he's on good terms with with his ex-wives and like like they're close. And he and he's you know, his kids are kind of back at least, you know, it's hard to say. But his son was living with him. He's close with one of his daughters. She's in it. So we don't really know what's real. but it makes you think that we didn't fully also know who he really was, even when he seemed to be showing us, you know? Who knows? I mean, that's nice to hear. In the first episode, you're introduced to his best friend from high school, the football player guy, who's still his best friend.

1:22:26Yeah, exactly. So I guess that says something. But there doesn't seem to be any kind of spiritual awakening. It's sort of like, here's what happened, and it was crazy, and I'm still living, as opposed to like, what did I learn from this that could make me a better human? So to me, it rings a little empty, and maybe that's why I didn't end up watching the second episode. Yeah, maybe so. But it is remarkable that he was able to survive all of that stuff. And I also think it's interesting that his brother and his dad decided not to participate. Right. And, you know, we don't know why, but I would have to imagine maybe it has something to do with the fact that by participating in it, like anything, like it's, imagine you're Martin Sheen who was just terrified when his son was doing this because Martin has had his own, you know, like the parallels between Platoon and like Charlie being on set for Apocalypse Now when his dad was like going through that and had the heart attack and all of that.

1:23:30Like it's great. That's pretty wild stuff. And it was portrayed very cinematically in the show. But anything that is potentially ego aggrandizing for this person is going to set them back towards their addiction. That's true. You know what I mean? So suddenly he's back in the limelight. He's got this book. He's got this Netflix. Is this really in Charlie's mental health interest? And maybe just by saying we're not going to participate in it, is their way of saying, we don't want to be involved in anything that might move him back towards a drink. Yeah, but there might have been economic necessity involved.

1:24:10He spent all his money, maybe. Who knows? Right, but that doesn't mean that his dad and his brother have to contribute to this, I guess. And who knows? I don't know. One brother's in there. I don't know these people. I don't know. One brother's in there. Yeah, he's like the one brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Sean Penn is in there a little bit. You know, I mean, that dude. He's sweating through it. He's sweating through it. He doesn't seem stoked to be there, but he's there. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of which, you haven't seen One Battle After Another. No, I haven't seen it. I read the interview, the David Marchese interview in New York Times that Sean Penn did.

1:24:47I thought it was interesting. No, I haven't seen it. No spoilers, please. I'm desperate to see it, but I haven't, you know. Yeah, I won't spoil it. I was in D.C., and despite me being kind of full-time on deck for my family, I did find a four-hour window where I could escape, and I went by myself to go see it in Georgetown in IMAX. It's a remarkable movie, and Sean Penn's performance is really something. I mean, it's out there. It's really out there. It's masterful filmmaking. And I think Paul Thomas Anderson sort of asserts himself as one of, if not our greatest living filmmaker. It is a remarkable work of art.

1:25:37I can't wait to see it. And an achievement. And you're going to love it. Try to see it in IMAX. In LA, it's all about seeing it in VistaVision. Oh, what's that? Which you can see at the Vista in Los Feliz. But it's basically the film cut that is made for the specific camera, the VistaVision camera that Paul used to film it, which has a certain grain. And so film enthusiasts are like, you have to see it in VistaVision. But at the Vista Theater in Los Feliz, it keeps breaking. That's hilarious. And so they just end up putting it up in the digital projection or whatever. Okay. And I think there's only a couple theaters in America that even are outfitted to screen it in VistaVision anyway.

1:26:21But IMAX is definitely worth it. Okay. So Charlie Sheen's on Netflix. We have a couple other Netflix things happening that we should talk about, right? Yeah. Which where do you want to go first? Well, we can start with the fact that I was also in New York City the past couple weeks, and I happened to be in New York during Climate Week. Oh, okay. And I went to this event for Protect Our Winters, which is this nonprofit and doing all kinds of cool stuff. I'd heard the founder speak before. And they were screening one of Alex Honnold's movies, one of his climbing movies, not Free Solo. But there was a little gathering beforehand.

1:26:58I'd already seen the movie. So I just wanted to go and mingle and socialize. So I saw Alex and I was catching up with him. And this was before the announcement of what we're going to talk about. But I was asking him, aren't you supposed to go and climb some skyscraper in Dubai or something like that? And he's like, no, it's Taipei. And I was like, yeah, we've been working on that for a long time. Because he was talking about, I was like, how is it being a dad? Like he's being a dad now. And also, he's a celebrity. So he gets asked to do talks all the time and come to New York for Climate Week and do all sorts of stuff.

1:27:34And how does that work with you being a professional climber? and your goals, like, what are your goals? Do you still have goals? What do those goals look like? And just a talk about how it gets harder to prioritize that kind of stuff. Does he have anything to prove? But he still loves it. And is there anything that he still wants to accomplish? He's 40, so he probably has five years. He has a window of time where he can be a baller. And then it starts to decline a little bit. So we were just talking about that. And I was like, well, aren't you doing some skyscraper thing or whatever? And he's like, yeah, he's talking about...

1:28:12Anyway, so there was an announcement in the trades about this Netflix. It's Netflix, right? Yeah, Netflix. He's going to do this. So he's going to scale this skyscraper in Taipei. Do you have the details on this? Yeah, 101 floor skyscraper, 1 ,667 feet high. And I think you asked him about it, and you said, wow, it's going to be free solo. Yeah, he's going to free solo. Two-hour free solo special. And they're going to live stream it, basically. So it's meant to be this global event. We're going to be able to watch him do this in real time around the world on Netflix. That's right. Which is kind of amazing.

1:28:50According to him, assuming it's not raining or crazy windy or whatever, he seems to think this is not that big of a deal. He always says that. Yeah, he's like, it's pretty basic. It's easier than you think. It's easier than it looks. Well, it doesn't look easy. It looks insane. I know. It looks completely insane. Yeah, he's like, it's pretty basic. This is a pretty basic climb. Yeah, it's no clue. Because we really had time for training, and he was sort of like, well, I don't really need to train for that. Like, that's not that big of a thing, or whatever. I was like, okay. Our frame of reference, you know?

1:29:24Yeah. It's all a matter of perspective. But how do you train for a building? Like, do you do it in, like, a climbing gym, or do you actually go climb other buildings? You know, like the guy who did the, I forget his name, the great Frenchman who did the high wire between the Twin Towers. Oh, right, yeah. He was doing, like, Notre Dame. He had to do it a few times. You know what I mean? Like, how do you? I don't know. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I'm sure that'll be part of the show. But, like, yeah, it's interesting. And, you know, they're getting into expeditions. Colin O 'Brady's got an expedition on Netflix that's happening, right?

1:30:00Well, first of all, before we move off of the Alex thing, I mean, the only other thing I can remember seeing in recent memory is, what's his name, The Magician? Didn't he? Yes, David Blaine. Yeah, David Blaine did a skydiving stunt, or he did something crazy that was live-streamed on a streamer or whatever. And I remember it was a big deal. The whole world was sort of watching it, because you didn't know what was going to happen, and this feels a little bit like that. Yeah, this is definitely like that. It's like Evel Knievel jumps the grandkid. Right, I know. This is when we were little kids or stuff like this.

1:30:33Yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of dig it. I remember that. Oh, I'm going to watch this. Evel Knievel jumping Snake. It was Snake River, I think. That's what it was. And he didn't make it. And he didn't make it. Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to watch this. I'm like, you know, I'm a junkie for the Alex Honnold stuff. I mean, he's in Climate Week probably for the Honnold Foundation, too. Yeah, it was a protect our winners, but it was also on behalf of Honnold Foundation. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, he's very involved in that. Yeah. And Protect Our Winters is Jeremy Jones, great snowboarder. He was at the event also.

1:31:04And yeah, there's another Netflix. This is Netflix also, right? Our friend of the pod, Conor Brady, is going to be doing this new adventure show where he's going to go across Antarctica again. Again. He loves it there. Unsupported. But it sounds like this one is longer, like he's going from... I don't have any insight into this because the first I heard of it was a day ago or something. It was an article in Deadline. Right, yeah, yeah. I was just texting with him because he was doing some retreat and he was with Guru Singh. Right. And so he sent me a photo and we were chatting a little bit. And he said he was training for his next thing.

1:31:40He was doing this retreat that was like a love retreat. He's a love retreat. That's what he called it. But then he's like, I'm training for my next thing. And I didn't know what his next thing was, but now I do. Right. Right. Well, the only thing I can think of is after we, you know, he did the Antarctica race against Lou Rudd in 2018, finishing in like, I think New Year's Eve was like, or whatever, it was like shortly, almost, I think it was almost on New Year's Eve when he finished. I have to go back and look at those stories. But for people that don't know, like you were covering that for the New York Times.

1:32:09That's right. And it was like this multicolor, like it was a big, splashy kind of ongoing story that you were covering. Yeah, I covered it periodically. I was talking to Lou and Colin while they were out there on their satellite phones. I was messaging with them, and Colin was, you know, the whole thing. Colin brought me in as, hey, would you be interested in a story? And so kind of he tipped me off early. But in the aftermath, those stories went really large, right? People liked them. But then there was a whole undercurrent within the real serious expedition kind of community that we're backing a guy named Borj Osland.

1:32:43And Borj is an amazing Norwegian explorer who wasn't necessarily—all of these guys want the attention to what they do, but he was really the kind of nuts and bolts old-school explorer. And he had used a kite to help him a little bit on the ski, but he went from sea to sea. What Colin and Lou did is they went from the edge of the sea ice, like a couple miles out on the sea ice, to the landmass, and what they were crossing was the landmass. So as soon as they got to the other sea ice, they were done. But in reality, the sea ice kind of expands to the point where it makes Antarctica twice as wide in some places, and the ice is fused there.

1:33:29So if you look, if you flew over it, you'd be like, well, that's part of the land. So that was criticism that they both received. And Colin, I think, must have felt that. I haven't talked to him about it specifically, but it must have sunk in because this is— This is C2C. C2C. C2C. And it's going to be a series, I guess, on Netflix? Is it a series? I don't know. Or a documentary? But I know that it's being directed by the guy who directed My Octopus Teacher. Right. And did that win the Oscar? I think it did. It should have. I can't remember. It should have. But either way, like high-level director, you know.

1:34:01So this is not like a low-rent project. This is going to be like a high-profile kind of thing. But it is his fourth time back there, from my count, at least. His fourth time in an hour. Are you including the Drake Passage thing? I mean, technically, that brought him. No, no, no. You mean, just pulling the pull. Oh, right. Well, the last time he was there, he fell into the crevasse and almost died. And he pulled out, right? And that was another type of race. There were multiple people going to try to break his record or something. I don't remember. That was 2023. And he was also there for the Explorer's Grand Slam, the kind of thing that put him on the map in this adventure kind of community, where he broke the FKT for the Explorer's Grand Slam, which is the seven summits and the both poles.

1:34:44And so he pulled a Polk to the South Pole as part of that. It's just interesting that these adventurers are getting Netflix shows. I know. You know, it's wild. It is wild. It's cool. I mean, it is cool. It's like, you know, what I've heard about, what I've read, I did a little bit of just baby digging on this Netflix thing. is I guess in the streaming wars, everyone kind of suffered some erosion. They've suffered some subscription erosion and getting into sports and live events enables them to get some advertising dollars as well as gets people who want to pay for the subscription. So it kind of, it helps retain subscribers and recruit more and then get some advertising dollars and it helps the stock price stay buoyant or something like that.

1:35:28It's like a strategic play because they'd already kind of played out what they could do in their original model? Yes, if you're a competing streamer. If you're Netflix, you're in an entirely different situation. Like Netflix is so much bigger and more powerful than any of the other ones. I think it's like basically if you added up all of the other streamers, Netflix would still be bigger. Like it's so dominant in the space. So they don't really need to do that in the way these others do. but I think that they also recognize that the future is in live events. And so I think this Honnold thing, like the one thing that the streamers have yet to really conquer is like live sports, right?

1:36:11Like live events. And that's the one thing that's keeping people tethered to cable boxes. Right. Right? Because you're not going to be, I mean, you can like stream sports on, but it's not the same, you know, it's not the same experience. So anyway, all of that's super interesting. Well, they're doing it. I mean, Amazon Prime has football. NBA is going to be on a couple of the streamers. So yeah, it's shifting. Wasn't there some of those deals? I don't know. I should, you know, listen to The Town, that podcast. They'll tell you everything. Yeah, like, I don't know. They'll tell you everything. I'm not like steeped in that.

1:36:46I know there's like a lot of deals going on right now in that space, but I'm no expert at that. Amazing. I think we should wrap this up. Is there anything final you want to say? Well, we should congratulate the Norwegians on their sweep in Nice. Kasper, Gustav, and Christian. Kasper Storns. Because usually you don't hear about him as much as Gustav and Christian. Coming into this, this was the Nice World Championship. Ironman World Championship. Ironman World Championship. In Nice. In Nice. Which happened when I was in Tokyo at the World Championships. And Gustav and Christian are both on athletes.

1:37:24Okay. Obviously, everyone at ON was pretty excited about those guys going 2-3. It's amazing. Well, I mean, Christian coming in was absolutely dominant. Like, absolutely dominant. He'd won, I think, three starts in a row, two full Ironmans, and won the half Ironman championships he won. And Gustav has had a harder kind of comeback trail. His mother passed away. I think he had an injury or something like that. And it was unclear if he was going to be back in form, but he just absolutely crushed. He crushed. And so they were all kind of together at one point. and I guess Storrs won 751-39. Who's their training partner, right?

1:37:59Like they train, all three of those guys train together. It's crazy. It's nice to see. In Norway, not under the tropical sun somewhere. No, they're in - They travel a lot. No, they're in Spain a lot, I think, to train and stuff. But what's interesting is you turned me on to their data-driven approach, and that became a New York Times story that I did. And then you wrote an article about that. Right. And this became, but it's amazing to see it continue because that was a while ago. Right. It was like several years ago. And it hasn't been linear. Four years ago. Christian didn't exactly perform in Paris in the way that he wanted to.

1:38:37And then he didn't acquit himself well at the Ironman World Championships last year after Paris. And I did a podcast with him then. And so there was a big question mark. And meanwhile, Gustav was struggling. He was dealing with the grief of his mother passing. And so it's like, was that just a chapter? And now we're on to something else. So to see these guys come back and prove that they're in it for the long haul and that what they're doing is working is pretty cool. It's amazing. Amazing to see it. So congrats to those guys. Congrats also to Antonio Arguelles. He got his seventh Catalina Crossing.

1:39:15And our boy Hank Wise. That's right, Hank Wise. So was he in the boat? You were in the boat with this experience, right? I was in the boat with Antonio. So just explain for people what the Catalina crossing is all about. So it's a 20-mile crossing from Catalina to the mainland or vice versa. It's a channel. And so it's one of the Ocean's seven, one of the seven main channel crossings. It's also one of the Triple Crown of open water swimming along with English Channel and swimming around Manhattan. So it's one of the major places. and Antonio was going for his seventh crossing and we set off and he invited me to be on the boat.

1:39:58And as much as I've written about the sport, I'd never been on a boat for one of these crossings. And so I had to go, you know, I wanted to experience it. And also on the boat were Steven Munitonez, you know, who we all know, who's like a longtime open water swimmer and open water swim booster. And he's sort of like the man in charge of storytelling. He sort of lords over open water swimming as the person who champions it and is writing about it and telling stories about it. And doing it. And doing it, that's right. And he won SCAR one year. He's instrumental in helping get into the Olympics. He invited Diana Nyad.

1:40:41It was the first time Diana and Antonio. So she was in the boat with you, too? She was in the boat. They had had dinner a couple days before, and then she came on the boat, and she was a blast. So you were hanging out with Diana and I on the boat? Yeah, I'd heard so many people tell these horrible stories about this person. And even watching the movie, you get the sense that it's not really her. I enjoyed the movie a lot. I'm not criticizing the movie, but she seemed much more serious, and she was a lot of fun. I mean, she was a good time. I mostly hung out with Diana. That's cool. That was most of the time.

1:41:14And so Hank was on the boat or not? Sorry, I was looking at something online. So Hank came with my mutatonos to say hello to Antonio, and then we took a picture. I told you that he sent his car. Yeah, Hank was texting me. I was in the middle of it. I owe him a phone call. But anyway, go ahead. But he, you're a former teammate. So Hank Wise was my teammate at Stanford, and he's one of the most interesting, hilarious, and cool, unique people you're ever going to meet. Yes. Yes. And like me, you know, he didn't exactly become a star on the Stanford swimming team, but he really found his groove in open water swimming later in life.

1:41:54And he holds the record for the Catalina crossing. Did you know that? I didn't know that. I just looked it up. Yes. Seven hours, 55 minutes in 2018. That's amazing. He's the fastest guy to ever cross from Catalina to Los Angeles. That's incredible. I didn't know that. He still holds it. And I think he did a swim shortly after that swim. Like, he went and did it again. I don't know what he did or whatever, but he's still out there getting after it. No, he just did it. He swam from Terranea Resort, so from Palos Verdes, to Catalina. So, he went the opposite. Oh, he went the opposite direction. And he did it in eight hours and, like, nine minutes or something.

1:42:28And 60 years. I mean, that's incredible. He's probably 57, 6 or something like that. Yeah, he was a couple years younger than me. Okay. But I've known Hank since he was, I don't know, 17, 18 years old. He's a great follow on Instagram if you find him. He's hilarious. He's got a little mustache. It's basically cooking videos for the most part. Plant-based. Yeah, he's plant-based. So do the math. Fastest guy to ever swim the Catalina channel, plant-based. And he's 50. He's my age. And he's a swim coach. And he's a swim coach, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's a great guy. He is an amazing, amazing person.

1:43:02Yeah, yeah, yeah. So shout out Hank and shout out Antonio. Yeah, man. Cool, man. Well, I think that's a good place to put it. We had other stuff on here, but we're not here to exhaust the audience, are we, Adam? No, I've been told. If you're still here. I'm exhausted. I'm pretty exhausted. No. Hey, it's good to see you, man. You too, man. Hey, maybe we'll do this again sometime. Let's do it. Let's do it. Peace out.

1:43:35That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful.

1:44:14This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor.

1:44:55And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.