Roll ON: Journaling, Creativity & Process—Plus Transformative Books, Thoughts on Regenerative Agriculture & Remembering Swimming's Greatest Coach

25:51And there are practices like the morning pages, which we referenced earlier, which is this practice of just first thing in the morning, opening up a journal, long handing, just doing a dump, to clear out whatever's in your brain so that you can kind of get to a point of clarity before you actually do your creative work. Like those journals are not meant to be seen by anyone. They're not meant to be reread. They're not meant to be insightful. They're really meant to connect your hand to the paper and to kind of clear the cobwebs out. And there's all kinds of cool stuff in here like the artist date, like once a week you take yourself on an artist date, meaning you have some creative thing that you'd like to do.

26:31Maybe you wanna take Polaroids or you want it, whatever. And like you indulge that, which is something that ordinarily we're busy and you're just not gonna make time for it or whatever. And I love this book. This is the original copy that I got. I think I got this book in 1999, 1998. That is well used. I love it. This book is like, coming up, it's like over 25 years old. That's been in some trunks of cars. It's been under beds, it's been in beds. I know it's like fraying here and I returned to it time and time again. That's awesome. Did you return to it to begin this project you're on now? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:14Like a variation on it. Like I don't do it, it's super rigorously exactly the way it's lined out because I've done it many times over. But Cameron also is sober. And so there's sort of a 12 step veneer to this also. Like it's a spiritual program in the way that Alcoholics Anonymous is. And so there's an overlap. And it was introduced to me by my friend, Sasha, who's been on the podcast, Sasha Gervasi. And I just love it. And I recommend everybody check it out. The other book that Sasha was the first person to introduce me to was The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. And that's another book that I read and read and read and read again and again and again.

28:04And it's just like the ultimate kind of like primer for getting your head around the creative process and going to war with resistance. And I couldn't find my copy of that book. I don't know where it's hidden, but Steven who's also been on the podcast twice has become a little bit of a mentor to me. I mean, just like incredible. This guy, he just came out with this box set, the daily press field. which I thought it would share. Comes in this beautiful box. And it's sort of like the Daily Stoic. Like every page has like a prompt that you can reflect on over the course of that day. Beautiful cover.

28:44And then, yeah, he's got like little journal in here and like these cards and I don't know, it's pretty cool. All right. So yeah, there's the War of Art on the back and then there's Turning Pro. These books are just instrumental. That's all. And you don't have to be faced with the prospect of writing a book to gain value from these creative texts. I think we're all creative beings and we all have something that we wanna say and express and perhaps struggle with finding a way to do that. And I just think they're manuals for living. 1999 is when you had the Art of Artists Way, right? And that you weren't thinking about becoming creative.

29:22Yeah, I've been doing this forever. A couple other texts that have been key and important to me, the creative act, Rick Rubin's book, which probably most people have read at this point. I think it's still on the New York Times bestseller list. It's crazy how well this book is doing. And this book was like really pivotal to me. I just think it's a really beautiful book. I have it teed up on Audible. And I just like, it's hard for me to get to my Audible. I almost knew it on Audible. This is a book you should actually, I think you should actually read. I read that. So I've got an audible that I should also buy it.

29:57Yeah. So Rick and Neil can get some benefit. Maybe, yeah. Creative calling. Shout out Neil Strauss. Yeah, shout out to Neil Cora who was - Ghostwriters are people too. The ghostwriters need to unionize, I think. I don't think Neil wants to unionize. No, I'm just saying, the unherald, they're sort of like this whole, this movie, the fall guy that came out And part of the narrative there is like, we need to really appreciate these stuntmen. They're barely credited. Nobody knows who they are. They don't, there's no Oscar category for what they do. And there was a real heartfelt sensibility by the director who was a former stuntman to raise kind of like to have us all like celebrate the work that they do.

30:45I think there's something relevant to the ghost writers out there. You know what I mean? who toil in anonymity and do all this, do God's work and just are sort of like, they're the ones who are jumping off buildings and submerging themselves with masks on and nobody knows who they are. Only writers want to, only writers want to award writers. The other book I would call out is Creative Calling by Chase Jarvis. I don't know who he is. He's been a guest on the podcast. This book is really great. I would highly recommend it. It's about like very practical, actionable things that you can do to develop a daily practice around cultivating creativity.

31:28And in the same kind of canon, there's a couple books by a guy called Austin Kleon that I actually haven't read. I think one is called Steal Like an Artist, something like that. I really should read those books. Have you had him on? No, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't. I'm aware of those books. Suggested to me and I don't know why I haven't read them, but I'm sure they're great. And those are probably next on my reading list.

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35:19What else is going on? You're getting, you texted me the other day about bikes. Yes. I was very happy to get this text. You're considering buying a bike. So my, like I played baseball growing up. Baseball is my main sport, like organized sport growing up. And I reached a point where I just wasn't good enough anymore to keep playing in the highest competitive league. So in the high school I switched and I started to, I was like early adopter of cycling and triathlon in America. And so I was doing that stuff. I didn't know this. Yeah, I know, I never told you. These front teeth were smashed in the asphalt in a bike race in the desert when I was 16 years old.

35:57Really? Yeah. Someone cut in the Peloton. This is a whole new Skolnick that I know nothing about. You remember those Dave Scott Ironman bikes? I had one of those, the first Shimano 600s or whatever that was on the market or something. Yeah, I had that and I was really good at hills. I was really skinny and small and I didn't even really grow in height till I was 16 years old. And so I was really short at first and then I was too short for that bike. Then I really grew into it and I was great in the hills. I mean, of all these endurance sports, it's the one I'm best at more naturally. And I think it's because I did it younger, right?

36:31So I had that experience I was doing. I did road from Santa Barbara to LA. I used to ride down to Laguna. I did all that kind of stuff on this bike. And then I was in this bike race and someone just cut in the Peloton, just they made the wrong move and I hit his back wheel and just went down. And it happened so quickly, I couldn't move and smash my teeth. And so, and not long after, I kind of lost my flavor for it. That was it for you. It's kind of like the Jack Johnson hitting his head in pipeline or hitting, he smashed his teeth too. He went head first into the reef. Of course he kept surfing big waves and I kind of started partying or whatever I did.

37:09Yeah, that example sort of falls apart. It's not a good example. Well, I'm excited for you to find a new bike because bike technology has come such a long way since then. I mean, the bikes that are now available, I mean, it's like night and day, they're so fun to ride. So, let me tell you, like I got diagnosed with this herniated disc, we've talked about this, right? And I couldn't run anymore, I haven't been able to run. And so I decided to get on this bike, I got my back up better and I have the bike, this like fixed gear type bike. It's not a fixie, because it's like the new fixies where you can flip it around and there's like a free wheel so you can coast.

37:42So it's a single speed with a big chain ring up front, small, and you can't go at top speed downhill, but you have to go hard uphill. And so like, I've got a couple of different rides I do between 12 and 20 something miles. And I get to pass all these people in Lycra and like high-end bikes going up San Vicente because I have to go so hard to go up at all. Otherwise you'll tip over. But I can't do hills, I can't get on the trails. And then I've heard about these gravel bikes for years. I've always threatened to get one. And then I rode one of your canyons you have here for guests. And I'm like, I love this bike.

38:19Like, why aren't I on a better bike? So I've been looking at it. So I've been looking at the Canyon Grizz is one thing I've been looking at. I talked to one of my cousin's son, Isaiah Goldstein. He's a great cyclist. He lives up in Washington. He's more trails. And he's like, well, the thing about Canyon is you don't have a bike shop. and if you're a great, if you have all the gear, you know how to put things together, that's one thing. But so you should also consider while you make your selection, looking at a bike shop just to see what they offer. And so I looked at Specialized, I went down to Helen.

38:52So I've been looking at a few things and I think I've settled on a gravel bike with a slightly bigger chainring, changing out the front ring to like from a 42 to a 46. So I can use it in a triathlon scenario, but I can also ride it up to Sullivan from my house and get on a trail. and I could do all the things I wanna do because I'm not that serious, but I am serious in the fact that I'll be on the bike, you know, three times a week, two, three times a week. Well, flexibility is important. I think people tend to overspend on a very specific, specialized type of bike before they've ridden enough to know what it is they are gonna end up doing the most.

39:31And so, I think a bike that allows you, you know, the ability to ride it wherever you want in the way that you want is the more important thing. And then if you get totally hooked in, you can upgrade later, but I don't think that you should overpay now. And I think with that gravel bike setup, I mean, you can change the tires on it for road and you can have, there's certain things that you can do to make it more of a universal type of situation for yourself. But I'm partial to Canyon. There is that idea that if you get a Canyon, And it's a bike that bike shops are reluctant to service because they have such specific components, et cetera.

40:12But I got a guy for you. That shouldn't be a consideration. Okay. There's a great company called Velofix and they basically do bike repairs mobile and they have a van, you can book it online. They come to your house, they can build your bike because Canyon they'll just ship you, you need somebody to assemble it. Right, right. There's plenty of people who can do that. Okay. And so I'll just introduce you to my guy, but I'm partial to Canyon and Canyon is a company that we work with. I love that company. I love the brand. I love the bikes. I love that bike that I rode. And that's why I was thinking, God, I should do.

40:46And it is a better price point for what you're getting, isn't it? Like then a lot of these highly. I think so. I think their bikes are really exceptional. Okay, so Canyon, we'll talk about it. What do you think of digital shifters versus the mechanical? like the new SRAM, is it called? SRAM. SRAM Red and DI2. Yeah. Yeah, I think they're great. Electronic shifting is really fun. It's very precise. You have to charge them and there's differences between SRAM and DI2, but it's really kind of a personal preference thing. All of those components now are pretty exceptional. So, I would go with electronic shifting.

41:28You would. if you can and that's in your budget. Okay, cool. Yeah, we'll talk about budget. And I know the listeners out there are gonna have opinions. Please send me your opinions, please at me. Please at me. You're gonna get a lot of opinions. It's a very personal thing, you know what I mean? It is, it is. And as I said to you in the text, like just ride a bunch of bikes and find the one that you enjoy the most, that feels the most comfortable. I mean, obviously you'll wanna get a proper fit and all that kind of stuff. So some of that stuff, you can adjust after you purchase. And these fellow VIX guys can help you with that, right?

42:05You can call them over to fit. Yeah, you wanna be excited about the bike that you're getting, but anyway, well, this is gonna be a whole journey for you. Yeah, it should be fun. I wanna be able to ride with you sometime. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. What else is happening? Oh, what else is happening? Deepest Breath won an Emmy. Deepest Breath did win an Emmy. Isn't that quite today? Did they give you one? Would it have won an Emmy without you appearing in that documentary? Probably, but the thing about it is that, although they've been always very nice, they had a cut of that movie done before they brought me in.

42:39I was like the last interview because they felt they needed something more. So, I mean, hopefully I gave it. Push it over the edge. Hopefully I did, but I did get in the, at the farmer's market today, the guys I see for like salad stuff and herbs, this guy's like, looks at me and he goes, are you in the movies? And I'm like, me? No, man, I'm not in the movies. And he goes, are you sure you're not in that movie that, you know, the diving one? And I'm like, oh yeah, I mean, and so what happened was what usually happens when people approach me, cause they've seen something of mine or usually it's a ritual podcast.

43:17they talk to me about it and they're happy to meet me. And then I wanna talk about them longer than they wanna talk about me or talk to me. And then they start to recede into the background. They're trying to get away from you. Yeah, I'm like, and I also wrote a book about it. He's like, all right, bro. I didn't ask about your book, dude.

43:36That's pretty funny. When we had Orlando Blumen here recently, I invited you to come to watch because the episode of his series where he goes free diving was at, what's it called, Deep Blue? No, the Blue Hole, Dean's Blue Hole. Yeah, the Blue Hole. And all of the people that are kind of schooling him and it was in the middle of the competition. Right, right, right. And I knew that you would know all of those people and there would be like a shorthand for that experience. So, it was cool. Yeah, it was cool to be here for that. Yeah, it was cool to see, and to hear his whole, as we get into the recent pods, he's one of them to hear his whole journey through Buddhism.

44:19It's fascinating. And he's a beast, he's like one of those undercover beasts you don't realize. Who can just excel, like he's just an incredible athlete. Incredible athlete. He applies himself. He's in a wingsuit. I know, after 35 jumps that were compressed into like a two week period basically. Right. Do you think that comes from just being an actor? like you have to learn how to ride a horse really fast. You have to learn how to do this really fast. You have to like, there's like this compressed time to learn to be good at something. I have no idea. I mean, I think he's, you know, he's definitely like, you know an adrenaline adventure junkie but I think he has like a base level of athletic talent also.

44:58Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, that was fun to have you here for that. Yeah, that was fun. It was fun to be here. And like, what have you been up to? I'm doing good, man. And we have all the kids home for the summer, which is fantastic. We have one who just finished her first year in college. We have our youngest who just finished 10th grade at boarding school. I'm not gonna say where, but I never thought I would send a kid to boarding school, but the school has just been phenomenal for our youngest. And she's now home and the boys who already lived with us. So we're just all together as a family and it just feels great.

45:34I'm so excited to be home. Is she like - Well, that's the thing that maybe, if anything I've done that I just am so grateful for and on some level, I guess, proud of that the kids wanna be home. Like they're off with their friends and doing all sorts of things, but they're happy to be home. And it's nice to have dinners and connect together. So I just, I love it. I'm so happy that they're here. I'm so happy to hear that, man. It's like, you're my fatherhood example. There's a lot, it's a roller coaster. Of course. You go through phases and there's plenty of ups and downs. And I always say, when the kids are little and young, the problems are many, but the problems and the solutions are relatively simple.

46:23And when they get older, there's a lot of problems, but the problems are more complicated. They get trickier and they're more fraught. And we've had every kind of color under the rainbow of stuff we've had to contend with as parents. So it's not easy, but I feel like everyone's in a really good place right now. And for that, I just, I couldn't be more grateful. I'm happy to hear that. That's awesome. Are you guys traveling at all this summer? Well, we're gonna be going to Paris for the Olympics. All right. I'm doing some things with on in conjunction with the big event that's happening there. And so we're all going over as a family and we've rented a friend's flat in Paris for a couple of weeks.

47:07So that's gonna be good. So I'm excited to, I've never been to the Olympics. I'm obsessed with the Olympics and I've never witnessed one. I've never attended one. So it'll be my first experience doing that. And it's gonna be great. I'm gonna do some activations with on and some of their athletes, there are track and field and marathon athletes. A couple panels, one of which I think is gonna be open to the public. Like the schedule is all still getting worked out. So I'll make announcements about that as we near and that information becomes public. And hopefully I'm gonna do some podcasts there.

47:42We'll see. Okay. It's tricky because of the IOC and, you know, I mean, I'm gonna do it myself. Like I'm gonna bring my gear or whatever and catch as catch can and see what happens. It's not like I have a whole agenda or I'm running a studio or something like that, but just to kind of old school it here and there. I just don't wanna be caught flat footed if I'm there and I don't have my gear and I come, I meet somebody who wants to do it. I wanna be able to do it. You need as a reporter on the ground who knows how to open some doors. I could use a lot of things, all of which exceed the budget. I'll tell you that.

48:20With a blue blazer like this Is it a bicycle with a French bread holder? Maybe. I can slide right in now. But on the swimming front, I don't know if you've been following this, the apparently the open water swimming and the swimming leg of the Olympic triathlon are meant to go down in the sand. I did see that. I knew it was the open water. I didn't know it was the triathlon leg as well, but it made sense. I believe so. And so, going back, I don't know, two years ago, I started to see news about this and how they were gonna clean up the water and make it swimmable. And I checked back in on that.

48:55I was like, is that still the case? Is that still happening? Last I heard it wasn't ready. That's what I heard it wasn't ready. I just read an article, I'll link it up in the show notes that said that they've devised, I'm sure I'm gonna mischaracterize this, but they've devised some workaround because the Sen has a lot of bacteria, it's not like safe for swimming, that they've cordoned off a certain like section of it. That's like the size of 10 Olympic size swimming pools or something like that. And they have these underground tunnels where they're gonna funnel the river water, like bypass it.

49:40Like it's like bypass surgery, right? And they're gonna have this one area that where the water will be clean. And they seem to believe that they're gonna hit their target in terms of timing. So they're building a pool in a river? I think maybe like, I don't know exactly. I should probably read that article more in depth or do a little bit more research. But my sense was that this is still very much, not only a possibility, but how it's gonna go down. So we'll see. It's like every Olympics though. You hear all the venues are almost done and then they're like two weeks out and like, you know, there's all this stuff that has to happen in order for, you know, it to get pulled off.

50:22And true marathon swimmers are like, I swam in the Hudson and the East river and all around Manhattan. They tell me there's not gross water there. They do it all the time. Well, they can't have like people getting sick and all kinds of stuff like that. So anyway, yeah. So that's gonna be the big trip this summer. And I just, you know, I've been traveling a fair amount. I was in India, I was in Austin and then I was in Bentonville, Arkansas, but I went to, we didn't do a roll on after I got back from India. I thought we were gonna talk about, yeah. I wanna hear all about that Dalai Lama trip. I mean, that is unbelievable.

50:54So I got invited by Arthur Brooks to join a small group of about 20 people to travel to Dharamshala to do a two day thing with the Dalai Lama that was hosted by Arthur in conjunction with Harvard, where he teaches at the business school and at the Kennedy School of Government. And so the group was, there were people from his happiness lab at Harvard that were there. There were some social scientists, some interesting people. Rainn Wilson came with his wife and Lisa Miller, who's a podcast guest who teaches the science of spirituality at Columbia was there also, but everyone else was new to me, but it was a really great group.

51:38And basically it was two separate days of sitting with the Dalai Lama in these two hour sessions where Arthur kind of hosted and sort of conducted a series of questions and conversations with the Dalai Lama. And it was really cool. I mean, he's 89 years old. It took place in this sort of congregation room that is attached to the domicile that he lives in, that's adjacent to the actual monastery. And it was, I mean, it was amazing. I was sitting like this far, like as far as I am away from you, from him two days in a row. And Arthur has a whole series of questions that he wants to ask him. And he's got a whole arc and trajectory, this journey that he wants to take the Dalai Lama on and take us on.

52:31But he knows well, because he's been doing this for over a decade, that it basically doesn't matter what you ask the Dalai Lama. He's gonna tell you what he's gonna, he's gonna assess the crowd and figure out what these people need to hear. And that's gonna be his message. So most of his responses to these questions, which had to do with love and transcendence and happiness and West versus East and the like, forgiveness, compassion, and could all be boiled down to one core answer that was sort of like his refrain or his mantra that he kept returning to, which is basically like, the answer is always love to everything, which is to the Western mind, somewhat infuriating in its reductiveness and simplicity.

53:20Like we came all the way here, like let us pass the velvet rope then, like this is it. But when you reflect on it, is there anything more profound than that? No. That basically everything that ails us, all of the problems that we face and et cetera, the solution can all be found on developing a greater capacity to give and receive love. And what was interesting was how he framed it repeatedly over these two days, which was if you don't know exactly what I'm talking about or you feel challenged by how to conjure that emotion of love, look to the mother's love for the child or look to nature, to the animal kingdom and the mother animal's love for its offspring.

54:18And basically, by really trying to internalize like that experience into your life is basically what I'm talking about. And kind of behind it, he means that the love that he's referring to and the love that you should be exuding in your life should be that of that character, like the way that unconditional love that a mother has for its child. And the idea behind it being like, love everyone as if you are their mother or you are the child, right? Like that is the love that they serve unconditional, most compassionate version of love. You're the mother and the other person's the child, that kind of love.

55:07I think it's more like the mother's love is basically what he's talking about. Not the child's needy love. And not the father's love. I noticed the absence of father, not the father's, It's conditional love, the mother's unconditional love. And he spoke in his native tongue and he had a translator. So he didn't have to, he speaks English, but he didn't have to like struggle with his words or he could be more precise in his answers that way. And a couple of people had the opportunity to ask questions. I got that opportunity as well. What'd you ask him? I'm gonna hold off on that. You're not gonna sit on that one.

55:44Yeah, I'm holding that one to myself. I have a feeling where that might land. So that was cool. And it was great to do it with Julie and to be there with my wife. And we got to spend a ton of time with a lot of monks. There was a whole bunch of monks that came up from Southern India who live in monasteries there, who are part of his community. Many of which had advanced degrees from American universities and science and the like, like super interesting guys, really fun to hang out with, super fascinating. there's a monastery school, like as part of the Dalai Lama's kind of compound. And there were all these kids, like little monk kids, who are growing up in that.

56:33Going to school there. Yeah, basically. And Dharamshala is a trip, you fly to Delhi and then you get this like little plane that flies north to Dharamshala and it's about a 45 minute drive from the airport and you go up this mountain and it's sort of like the Topanga of India, you know, a lot of seekers, a lot of backpackers, and a lot of cows in the road and that kind of thing. And, you know, India is my first visit to India. I mean, India is just like being on another planet. Totally. It's a trip. Did you like it? Yeah, it was great. It was pretty hectic, right? It's pretty wild. It's hectic and look, it's a massive country.

57:10So in the aftermath of that experience, Julie and I went to Jaipur and spent a couple of days in that region in Rajasthan. Went to some temples, went to that city, Jaipur and got a sense of - The red city. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, have you been there? I have. Oh, you have, yeah. It's wild, man. Yeah, it's cool. It's really cool. It's a place of extremes and - Oh yeah, I mean, like barbers and cows and everything on the street. It's like - Peacocks everywhere. I mean, the video you posted from the taxi in Dharmasala was like, I mean, I was like, man, I wanna be there. It felt like, you know, I lately I've had this like pangs like God, remember the traveled, like those lonely planet type travel days where you just get in a cab and you don't really know where you're going.

58:01It's like, we got a little bit of a flavor for that with the family women are a little sabbatical thing, but not like India, nothing's like India. There's nothing like it. Nothing's like it. Yeah, there's no comparison really. No. So I loved it, it was fantastic. And again, it was great to do it with Julie, with my wife. We had an amazing time and yeah, I can't wait to go back. I'm continuing to reflect on the experience. I'm doing a lot of writing on it. Are you? Yeah. That's awesome. I was like thinking what you were saying about love and what he was communicating. It's like, it is the mother's love, but it's actually harder because it's the mother's love that you're trying to repurpose in a selfless way, because it's hard to love someone when there's nothing back for you.

58:48You know what I'm saying? Even though there is something, you do get something back for you. And I don't mean that in a cynical way. I'm just kind of like philosophizing on it, but like - What am I getting out of this? Is that what you're saying? Well, most people it's innate, right? When it's your child, there's a reason that love is so strong. And when we love our family and our friends or we have that love, but then we're confronted with some situation we couldn't have seen coming. And you're, you know, someone hits you in your car or someone, you know, some crazy - But that's the challenge.

59:18Right, that's the challenge. I mean, really what he's saying is it's speaking to the illusion of separation, right? And this idea of oneness where, you know, we truly are all one. And if you could, you know, treat everybody the way that a mother treats a child, like wouldn't that be, you know, like wouldn't that be a better world? And it is a selfless love. So, can you love another as if they, in that mother's way, but also as if they are yourself, right? Because of this oneness idea. And it's about like breaking that denial or that delusion around separation. It's simple, but it's like, you can do it.

59:57But that's what life is, right? You wake up and you get another chance to do it again. It's like Groundhog Day in a weird way. It's like, here's your next chance to try it again, to do it better, you know what I mean? To be more pure or not even pure, but like more open, more loving, like every experience we have is our chance. So, like it really is. So that's how I feel. I know it sounds reductive and silly and trite, but I mean, it is the basis of spirituality, right? Of course. And there's a museum dedicated to the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala where you can go in and you can see all of these incredible photographs and artifacts that he's collected over the course of his like extraordinary life.

1:00:39Pictures of him, of course, with like every single world leader, including this insane black and white photograph of him talking to Chairman Mao. It's like, he's in conversation with the guy who basically exiled him and the government and killed thousands and thousands of people in a situation that's still unresolved. And so if he can demonstrate compassion and love and an attempt to understand with somebody like that, like then the issues that we come across are obviously frivolous and trivial by comparison. 100%. When they say like, when I interviewed someone from the Self-Realization Fellowship in Mount Washington in LA, They tried to get us to talk in some conference room, but it was like booked out.

1:01:37And so we had to sit on these couches. Maybe it stopped me if I've said this on the podcast before, but we had to sit in the, in front of the fireplace, just in the main house. And as the guy who sat across from me, he was like, you know, this is where Yogananda would sit every night after, cause that was his main house. Every night he would sit and whatever guests were there and they'd have tea and he'd sit there. And they say that after sitting here for a while, you might feel his presence in you as you leave here, whatever. And the guy that said this to me was very polite, very nice, very kind of academic almost.

1:02:10Like I didn't feel like that amazing unconditional saintly love coming off this guy. So I can't necessarily pin it to him. And I didn't believe it when he told me that I'm like, okay, yeah, sure. And we have this long interview for like, an hour long interview. This is back for LA yoga years and years ago. And as I left and I walked out of the garden, I felt like it's almost like the sensation of coming on to psychedelics. It was like this expansiveness and this feeling of energy. And obviously it's real, right? Curious if you had anything like that up there, if you felt the kind of the calmness or you felt anything energetically up there.

1:02:54I mean, not in that kind of heightened, super heightened way. I know lots of people who had some version of that experience and always talk about it. I can't say that I've had that myself, which was part of the question that I asked him that I'm gonna leave hanging. I love it. But let's take a quick break and we got much more to come.

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1:05:00You've had some amazing recent podcasts. I've really connected to the Jonathan Haidt one. I told you that I texted you right away. Like I wasn't even finished with a podcast. And I just like that to me, cause I have my, I always thought your first, your first David episode to me is my favorite personally. Cause it has meant so much to me, but also just it did right away mean a lot to me. And then I thought the Hooberman one, I mean, these, look at these two met what they've gone on to become and in no small part because of starting here with you and having it all unpacked. And then this Jonathan Haidt to me is on that level.

1:05:39It's like that good. It was, you know, he's one of those, he's like the public intellectual you want and need, really authoritative, but also thoughtful in his approach and a great writer, great communicator. So I thought, you know, that's one of those that can really help a lot of people. I think so. I mean, well, first of all, I appreciate that. I mean, he does tons of interviews and lots of media. So he's got his, you know, his points down. He knows what he wants to say. So in the case of having him on the podcast, like it was an easy lift for me because I can just sort of tee him up to say all the things that, you know, he can talk about with such depth and experience.

1:06:21But I think his book, you know, The Anxious Generation, I mean, it's one of the more important books that's come out in recent years. and it's definitely making a cultural impact. I think it was number one New York Times bestseller. And it's alarming to read that book. And I would imagine perhaps more urgent for someone like you whose kids are younger. Like my kids are already, they're older. And so the parenting piece around that is sort of a ship that's already sailed. Whereas for you, you have to be thinking about this all the time. And it's looming on the horizon for Zuma. And I thank him for this, you know, cause like now we know, you know, the social dilemma was kind of one of the first things that kind of clued us in that we're the crop, you know, we're the crop, we're the harvest.

1:07:14And this, to me, this is like 10 X in terms of the danger because that movie, even though it touched on adolescence, this is all about like, and really, and I think it's because the research has progressed, it takes apart how much childhood has been overwhelmed by it and what that means, which is suicide rates and depression. And so, it's weird because if it wasn't for social media, we wouldn't be sitting here right now in the same way. Like I wouldn't, you'd still have your podcast, but like, I mean, your podcast was built off. No, of course not. Yeah, I've built an entire career upon it. So, it's not a black or white thing.

1:07:56It's a tool, it's about your relationship with the tool. But it's not as easy as saying, use it to create things and not to consume things when it's so powerful, it overrides your neural circuitry to, you know, addict you to do things. And it's driven by algorithms that are bespoke to what interests you and agitates you. And that's what's, you know, driving not only poor mental health outcomes, but also in large part, so much of the divisiveness and division and acrimony right now that we're seeing culturally. Yeah, 100%. And so it's great that he's out there doing this work and a lot of it, like you can get on his way, if you don't wanna buy the book or for whatever reason, you can get on his website.

1:08:41He's got stuff, he's got old articles, he's got archived research. It's really, you've talked about this on the podcast, but I just encourage people who haven't listened to that one yet to really dive in. And the book is just as good, it really is. Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, yeah. So you told me you wanted to talk a little bit about the Johann Hari episode. Oh yeah, that's another brilliant episode, Johann. I mean, I hadn't caught the last two, so I didn't really have an understanding for his London charm and his gift for gab. He's quite charming. And a hell of a, I mean, he is a gifted communicator too, like the two of you.

1:09:18It's like, you had something, I felt, I think I've told you this, I felt that there was like a brotherly thing almost. Like you were the big brother and he, I'm not saying it's true, but that's how it came across to me. It's like there was like a creative tension that I really liked in it. Not that it was tense, it wasn't tense, but there was a tension in point of view, which I thought really made it interesting to listen to and it was riveting. Well, it's his third time on the show. and as a result of the other two experiences where at least on the second one, I think, I pushed back on some of his ideas around addiction.

1:10:00We developed a bit of a rapport. Like I like Johan, he's friendly. He's super fun to hang out with. He's obviously like a good conversationalist and he comes ready. Like he's got all his talking points and all the stories that he wants to tell. And my whole thing with him also, because he does lots of media and he's been on lots of podcasts is understanding and knowing that Johan has all these stories that he wants to tell. And they're fine because they illustrate his thesis and the points that he's trying to make and the books that he's written. But I try to get him off that. I was like, okay, cool.

1:10:36But like, how can I throw a curve ball at him and get him off his game a little bit. And for whatever reason, like the energy between us, like it's friendly, it's good. Like I feel like I can push back on him and we can have a good time and do it in a respectful way. Yeah. And so obviously that's what happened in that episode. But I felt like it's interesting because when the conversation was over, I was like, that was great. It was super fun. And we definitely have that kind of a rapport, but the response to it has been super interesting. There are a certain number of people who found it to be much more contentious than I felt like it was.

1:11:19Some people, and also because weight loss in Nozempic is a very heightened kind of topic or issue for many people. People have strongly held opinions about it. Both of those things separately and then together. It's pushing buttons. And I felt like we did a good job of canvassing not only the benefits and his firsthand experience on this drug, but also highlighting the risks and the dangers and the things we don't know about what's happening. And I felt like I was pretty balanced in that regard, but there also has been plenty of comments from people who are upset and felt like I was too hard on him and that I was biased and contemptuous of people that struggle to lose weight.

1:12:07And I felt like I was rather compassionate about that. Like I called myself out. Like there's the one time where I said something like, part of my brain is like, get it together. But I said that in the context of also saying like, I understand that that is a wrong headed motion. Like it's more difficult for other people than for certain people than it is for other people. And I can't begin to presume what that experience is like or the intensity of one person's cravings, in contrast to whatever I experienced. And I was very clear to say that for certain people who are tremendously overweight and have tried and tried and tried to lose weight or sustain some kind of weight loss unsuccessfully, that there is a real viable reason to explore this medication.

1:12:58While also saying we don't actually know, you know, anyway, it hit a nerve. I mean, the episode is doing really well. It's created like a discourse and a dialogue and I stand by it. And I have to say also that Johan was a great sport. Like I was able to push back on him and we had fun with it and he didn't take it personally. And it was kind of fun to jostle him and when he was like, you're still going to KFC or you had M &Ms for breakfast. Like, come on, dude. And I do feel like a chapter in the book is missing, which is what happens when he decides to go off it. And I did get a lot of messages and comments from people who have taken Ozempic and are now, I don't know how long, and like who've been taking it for a long time and have had that thing that happens with most drugs, which is that the efficacy starts to wear off and you start to need to either take more, like the hunger starts to return.

1:13:55Like the, you know, like - Interesting, really. And so they're starting to gain weight back while also still being on the medication. Oh, wow. And I don't know if that's a, and again, I'm like, I'm not a doctor. Is that anecdotal or is that - Yeah, I don't know if that's a universal thing or that's something that only a few people are experiencing and only time will tell. And then the other criticism I got was that if I was gonna have a conversation about Ozempic, why am I having it with this journalist? Why aren't I having it with an expert in the field? And I can hear that and maybe I will, but Johan's the one who wrote a book about it.

1:14:29He's having this experience and he's a great person to have a conversation with and I enjoyed it. And it seems like a lot of other people did as well. Yeah, I was left with a, well, just hearing you talk, I wonder if like kind of like your own weight loss journey led to a life change that was so significant that it's almost incalculable. Like you rediscovered the athlete inside you, you changed everything, you got a new career, it's led to this and without the pain and having the hard work, would you, if you just could have taken a Zempic and that would have muted your desire for alcohol and food, would you have become who you are today?

1:15:16And so that kind of - I mean, probably not, but I can't project that expectation of experience on another human being. No, no, but that could be some subconscious feeding your own skepticism of it. I was left with kind of the interesting impression because at the end, it got kind of science fictiony where you guys were talking about like, imagine a drug that does X, Y, and Z. And he brought up Soma from Brave New World. And I loved it. I love especially the end. And I thought, first of all, for the record, I don't think contentious is the word. I thought you brought healthy skepticism and there was some sparring, but it was all good natured.

1:15:49And he was open to it because he likes intellectual discussions. So like, it was kind of like - And not for nothing, he's very aware of all of these risks. He agrees with you. They're all detailed in the book at length. So he's not sounding some kind of siren call that everybody should be on Ozempic, far from it. And I felt like his frankness around, like just being open, like I'm taking it and here's what happened. And not trying to say that it's changed his eating. Like he's very honest, like I still, he still eats like shit or whatever. Like he could have like been less honest about those things.

1:16:28So I appreciated that. He's very transparent. I guess the only thing I would say was what I was left with was this, it's kind of a two-parter, but the one thing is it's very American, right? To have a pill, like he brought up, you guys got into the alcoholism and a pill to stop alcoholism or addiction. And his response was, well, there's plenty of scientists who actually think Ozempic is that. And which the first I've heard of that. And so you guys got into a long thread about that. You both kind of spoke at length and both said some really interesting and wise points. And what I was left, he described Portugal as this place where they took all the enforcement and punishment for drug use and drug sales and put it all into addiction, legalized drugs, put all into addiction treatment and housing and this thing.

1:17:19And it worked, their addiction fell, but that won't apply here because we are so individualistic as a country and always have been. That I just don't see that ever happening here. Not saying it can't, I shouldn't say that. I don't see it ever happening here because the way we function is the individual must do. That's why these people came here back in hundreds of years ago was to have opportunity they couldn't have at home and they were gonna do what they wanted to do. Now, not everybody had equal opportunity. We know that. That's not the story I'm telling. but the point I'm trying to make is we're so individualistic that two things come from that.

1:18:00One is you have to do it on your own because there won't be some systemic fix. And some people need something, some people will need to press the button. Some people will need to because they can't, you can't actually do it on your own. You have to find some way to do it. Like you have to plug in, whether it's in your case, a 12 step system that helped kind of you along or whether it's therapy or whether it's support groups or whatever it is, you can't, you know, Noom, you can't do it really actually do it alone. So you need to figure out what that is, but Ozembek actually kind of lets you do it alone, right?

1:18:37So there's something uniquely American about it. That's an interesting, yeah, that's an interesting, interesting thought. I wanna think a little bit more deeply about that, but I think you're right. When you say individualistic, you're not saying everybody's different. you're saying individualism, like the whole premise of this country is based upon self-efficacy. And we celebrate the individual at often, or probably at the cost of the collective whole. We do. Like that scale is off and that's driving a lot of the problems that we have. But it also feeds the stories we like, right? Like even - Right, because they're self-made.

1:19:17Right, we love a self-made. against all the obstacles and you overcome them and you did it yourself. Right, the suffering feeds your, it teaches you something and that you can use that to actually become a better evolution. And I agree with you on it, because you said that and I totally agree with you. The thing is, is that there's this general skepticism about, we all have skepticism, right? We all are rightfully skeptical. Someone rightfully skeptical about a journalist telling you about a Zempick or, you know, you rightly flee skeptical about, you know, what's going to happen to your brain over time and your bone density and like, that's so right.

1:19:54But what I kind of came out of it is how many of us, we're all so skeptical, we're selectively skeptical. We're all selectively skeptical. Based upon our inherent biases. Yes, and the stuff we consume. We're not skeptical of the things we wanna hear. You know what, we're not skeptical. We're only skeptical of the things that challenge what we wanna hear. Right, and we're not skeptical of the way we think. Almost nobody is automatically skeptical of the way we're thinking. Well, because we all think we have the best opinions. Because if we didn't think they were the best opinions, we would change that.

1:20:27Right, the version of skepticism that we tell ourselves isn't really skepticism, it's self-flaggation. It's like whipping you. It's like a whipping, excuse me. But yeah, so anyway, that's what came out of it for me, this individualistic kind of feeling that comes with evolution that comes through the American kind of upbringing. And this kind of plays right into it. It's no surprise that it's a big hit, you know, as epic. And I think that what you brought up was all your points were so valid and there's gotta be a balance. And the scary part is when you put a medicine out into the world or a chemical and you don't know what's gonna happen.

1:21:12I mean, you don't have to, he brought up those kind of 1970s diet pills, but like DDT is another great example. People thought we're gonna feed the world with DDT. We're gonna feed the world. And then now there's vats of it. And sure, there's always unexpected negative consequences that were unforeseeable at the time. And so we will see, we will see here. But I think the point I was trying to make and I hope came across is that it isn't a black or white thing, it's a nuanced thing. And I tried to bring some nuance to that experience. And Johan was a great sparring partner and I'm grateful that he was game for the conversation we had.

1:21:52Yeah, it was awesome, man, it was awesome. I wanna do a little shifting gears. I wanna do a little in memoriam. Let's do it. We're recording this on May 29. And one week ago, May 21 was the four year anniversary of our friend David Clark's passing. David Clark was an ultra athlete, a plant-based person who had lost hundreds of pounds. I think he was 320 pounds at one point, changed his life around, was has an insane sobriety story. Like his drinking career was off the rails and was an inspiration to a lot of people. He was really a unique and amazing soul. and he died too soon from complications from a lower back surgery, I believe, right?

1:22:41Like it wasn't like he, you know. No, it was a herniated disc he was trying to have fixed. Yeah, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. That probably influences whether or not you're gonna think about surgery. Never, that ended that. He was an amazing human being. He changed a lot of lives and I just wanted to honor him today. He's been on the podcast twice and we'll link up Jason Koop's reflections on him in the show notes. Jason is an ultra runner and a coach who wrote like kind of a beautiful reflection on Dave's impact on his life and others. Yeah, we are Superman. We are Superman. That was his thing, right?

1:23:19That was his, yeah, like we are all Superman. That's right. Yeah. And the other person I wanted to talk about today is John Urbanchak who, in my opinion, and my personal opinion was the greatest swim coach of our generation. And he died on May 9th at 87 from complications related to Parkinson's. He was a beautiful human being who impacted the hearts and minds of so many young athletes over many, many years. I had the good fortune to know him a little bit and he will be just really missed. I mean, John was my favorite swim coach. I know for a fact that if I had swum for him in college, I would have been a much better swimmer.

1:24:08He was just beautifully touched and had the right amount of push to positive energy. Like he really invested in people. Like he loved the kids that he taught. He believed in them. He was very invested in their lives and knew how to get the best performances out of them through positive encouragement, as opposed to being kind of a hard ass. I mean, he knew how to be a hard ass, but he just had this touch with people and everybody who was blessed to swim for him, just adored him and the outpouring of love and support in the wake of his passing on Instagram from so many Olympic swimmers over the years was really quite something.

1:24:52So John was the coach at the University of Michigan from 1982 to 2004 for a long time. He coached that team to 13 Big 10 championships, one national championship over the course of his career. He coached 44 Olympians, 21 medalists, 21 Olympic medalists. He was a coach on six different Olympic teams. He was a coach to Michael Phelps when he was at the University of Michigan. And also Katie Ledecky, Mike Barrowman, who was my peer. I grew up swimming with Mike in Washington, DC, who got the gold medal in 1992 in the 200 meter breaststroke. He was a world record holder. Tom Dolan, who swam for my club team and was a young kid when I was in high school.

1:25:38So I didn't really know him. I just knew him as this little youngster, but he went on to great acclaim as a swimmer. Tom Malcho, many, many others. Was he who Michael Phelps would go back to Michigan between Olympiads and when he first started to get like get in shape again. Bowman was Phelps' primary coach from North Baltimore. And so, you know, that was really Michael's guy, but Michael did attend the University of Michigan and when he was there, he swam for John. Later in his career, John was coaching in Southern California and he coached the crew of postgrads who were training at USC for the Olympics.

1:26:16So it was like Ryan Lochte and like Connor Dwyer and like a whole bunch of people who were out of college, but quote unquote professional swimmers. And I had the opportunity to swim a couple workouts under him there, which was really fun. Cause I met, so I met John in 1985 when I went on a recruiting trip to the University of Michigan. And it's a story I told many times, I've told it in Finding Ultra. University of Michigan and their swimming program has sort of a family legacy piece for me because my grandfather, Dick Spindle, who died before I was born, was captain of the University of Michigan team in like the late 1920s.

1:26:58He had an American record in the 150 yard backstroke, which was an event back then. He was an Olympic hopeful. I believe that he just missed the Olympic team by one place at Olympic trials. I think they took three in each event at the time. And I believe he got fourth in his event. So he didn't make the Olympics, but he was one of the top performers of his era. And his coach was a guy called Matt Mann. And the natatorium at University of Michigan is the Matt Mann natatorium. Like it's named after the guy that my grandfather coached. And so also like, my mother went to University of Michigan. My dad went to law school there.

1:27:38A bunch of my cousins went there. My cousin Bill was editor of the Michigan Daily. So like, and I'm from Michigan originally. Does Oz Perlman know this? I think I talked to Oz. You must have come up. I don't know if I talked about it. Oz is a big Michigan guy. Yeah, I know. And like people who are into Michigan, they're into Michigan. Like it's like going to a Michigan football game is like a, it's a whole experience. And the stadium there, I mean, it's like it's a hundred thousand person stadium. Yeah, it's amazing looking. I've never been, I'd love to go. So I went on a recruiting trip and that's where I met John for the first time.

1:28:14That was also one of my early experiences with alcohol. There was a dual meet and I ended up going to this house party after the meet where all the swimmers were and there was a keg and I think I drank a couple of times prior to that, but I was still like maybe only one or two times before that. And I vividly recall being handed a solo cup full of beer by this guy who, when I looked at him, I realized immediately who he was. He was Bruce Kimball, who was other than Greg Louganis, like the greatest American diver who had gotten the silver medal in the 10 meter platform at the 1984 Olympics the year prior.

1:29:02And whose father Dick Kimball was the diving coach at the University of Michigan. And in 1981, Bruce was hit. He was in a hit and run where he was hit by a drunk driver and he had facial sort of reconstruction. You could tell his face had to sort of like, it had to be like rebuilt. It was a very serious accident. It was a life-threatening accident. But in 1982, he came back from that and made the world championship team in diving. And so he was like this comeback kid. He was called a comeback kid. It was like this amazing story where he came back from this accident to basically get back to where he was as an athlete.

1:29:44And so for me, as this kid who's in high school, I was like, I knew this whole story. I knew who this guy was and here he was handing me a beer. And I was like, of course, I'm gonna drink that beer. And again, forgive me, because I've told this story many times, but he then proceeded to perform the greatest party trick of all time. Have I told you this? No. So he's holding his cup of beer and then he launches himself off the ground and performs an absolutely perfect 10 out of 10 backflip where he just plants his feet perfectly and he doesn't spill a drop of the beer. Like he holds it so steady.

1:30:20Like his hand is a steady cam. So his hand doesn't move when his whole body moves? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still don't know how he did it. And I just remember thinking like, whatever that guy has, like, I want that. I'm gonna hang out with this dude. Little did I know that this was sort of a foreshadowing. Cause I was like, oh my God. Like, so I just partied with that guy all night. Yeah, but what would happen was that a handful of years later in 1988, Bruce was drunk and he plowed his car driving, they say between 70 and 90 miles an hour into a crowd of teenagers. He killed two teen boys, injured four, was sentenced to 17 years in prison and ultimately served five.

1:31:13And I believe now he's sober, he has kids, a family. I think he might still coach diving, but I mean, one of the most tragic things that you could imagine. So it came full circle. Yeah, so he had his own journey with alcoholism and tragic consequences as a result of that. Heavy. And I think about that a lot. In any event, that's all in the context of meeting, meeting John Urbanchik for the first time. Oh, and at that same party, I met Jim Harbaugh too. He was the quarterback. Right, right, right. He was at this party. We were, it was snowing. And I remember we were outside this house and, And he pulled like, so it had a low awning and there were icicles hanging from the awning and he pulled this huge icicle off and he'd used it to like stir his beer.

1:32:11That is my memory. Of course, memory plays tricks. You know, if I could rewind the tape, I think is that exactly how that went down? But I know that I met him there and there was a moment where I was like talking to him. Anyway, here's an interesting story that I haven't told though. So, I didn't end up going to Michigan. I think often of what would have happened had I gone and swam for John at Michigan instead. And as I said, I think I would have been a better swimmer. And I know this because that summer, the summer of 1985, I graduated from high school and I made the team for something that was called the National Sports Festival.

1:32:51This is something that no longer exists that I wish did because it was such a cool thing. This summer, summer of 1985, the United States put on what was essentially an Olympics, but only for American athletes, where everybody went to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and it was like a summer Olympiad, all the sports of the summer Olympics, and the teams divided into north, south, east and west. So I made the swimming team - For the East. For the East, yeah. And John Urbanchak was the coach of that team. So, you know, we went, you go early and you train and whatever. And so I had the experience of like kind of having him coach me for a couple of weeks over the course of that experience.

1:33:41How'd you do? I did get, that was like one of my best performances. Were you on - I was leading the 200 fly and then I got touched out by a guy called Jeff Olson. So I got the silver. So you, that's almost like you were basically the Olympic trials track. I never, yeah, I didn't, I wasn't, I never could get over, see then, so then I show up at Stanford and I had all this promise, but I went on to squander that promise. And so I never really, you know, realized my potential is an athlete. I don't know that I, I was never gonna make the Olympic. I wasn't that good. I was like good. The times weren't on that track.

1:34:16No, no, no, yeah, yeah. It's hard to know though, you never know. And then John, you know, I would stay in touch with him over time. And I remember I went to one of those USC workouts like right after I did Otillo. So I was super fit and he was like very kind. I was like trying to keep up with these guys. And Lochte was there? Lochte was there, yeah. Does he still have the sign from Brazil? Connor Dwyer invited me. Dylan Efron is there. Who's sort of like Orlando Bloom. He's Zac Efron's brother, but he's this incredible athlete. He can do like any sport. He was like super fit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:34:49And then I met, I was invited to go to the Olympic Training Center a number of years ago by a coach called Jack Roach. And Jack is like, was best friends with John. They had this beautiful, incredible close knit friendship. And they're very alike in their sensibility and their philosophy around coaching. Both of them just love these kids. And Jack for many years was the coach of the national junior development team. So, and he'd been on Olympic staffs and stuff like that as well. I've heard the name. Yeah, he's great. And so there's a New York times article obituary around John Urbanchik that I'll link up in the show notes where Jack is quoted in that.

1:35:34But anyway, this is a long way of saying that John will be missed. And also, and I shared this on Instagram, like coaches take note, like if you wanna be a great coach, like study the ways of John Urbanchek and Jack Roach. Like these guys are like whisperers for Olympic athletes because they understand how young people work. They know how to motivate them. And they do that through this really heartfelt investment in them as people. And I just think that is a beautiful testament to the power of a great coach and kind of the legacy that that has on lives, many, many, many years and decades later.

1:36:16Cause it's weird, like I was very moved. It's like, if I count the number of times that I was in the presence of John Urbanchik, it's not that much, but he made a profound impact on my life and I think about him often. And I didn't even have nearly the kind of experience that hundreds if not thousands of other athletes have had with him. Beautiful. Yeah, man. I think there's only one more thing that I wanted to cover with you today, which is recently - Should we clear the books off the table? Yeah, maybe if they're in the way. Let's clear off the books. All right. So recently in Los Angeles, there's a small chain of restaurants called Sage, Sage Bistro.

1:37:01They have been vegan restaurants and they're of the same family that is behind Cafe Gratitude and Gracias Madre, which are like, you know, these beautiful, legendary plant-based restaurants in Los Angeles. And I mean, Cafe Graduate started in San Francisco. Ryan Englehart, who's a member of that family, has been a guest on the podcast. He's a big proponent of regenerative agriculture. He's one of the guys behind the Kiss the Ground nonprofit and documentary and the follow-up to that documentary, which is called Common Ground. And Sage was or is run by Ryland's sister Molly. And the big news is that Sage, which has always been a plant-based restaurant is now serving meat.

1:37:48Yes. And this tracks back to the farm that Ryland and Molly's family owned for which they were using to provide the produce for these restaurants. Many years ago, they went from that farm from being totally just agriculture to actually harvesting animals there as well. And that was a big kerfuffle in the vegan movement. And now the latest sort of kerfuffle is that, this legendary plant-based restaurant is not gonna serve meat. So this has kicked up a bit of a controversy in the plant-based community. And I thought it was worth kind of exploring some of the issues that have come out of this and to talk a little bit maybe be about the regenerative agriculture movement at large.

1:38:37Right, because that's the idea is that they're gonna serve meat that they say is cultivated. From this regenerative farm, which is part of the solution to economic degradation. Environmental, environmental. Environmental degradation, yeah, exactly. So let's talk a little bit about it. I mean, I think to be sure and certainly, regenerative farming is, there's a lot of amazing things about this. I wish that all CAFOs and kind of factory farms could transition into regenerative practices. It's a topic I've explored many times on the podcast. Remember the biggest little farm and that couple that runs that farm, they've been guests on the podcast.

1:39:20So certainly there are things to be learned and many benefits to moving away from monocropping to a more kind of sustainable wild grasses, rotating, kind of agriculture contained environment that's restoring the soil. And at the same time, pulling the CO2 out of the atmosphere and putting it in the soil, right? But I also think it's worth talking about the fact that this isn't necessarily a panacea. I don't think that this is the way forward in terms of how we're gonna feed the planet. To raise animals on a regenerative farm or to raise grass-fed beef requires a tremendous amount of land. These animals are alive longer than the factory farmed animals.

1:40:14Like if there's one thing factory farm does well, it's basically conserve as much, you know, basically conserve as much resources as possible to blow an animal up as quickly as possible so that they can slaughter it. They do it on its least amount of land possible in the least number of days. If you're gonna raise cattle, grass fed on these regenerative farms are gonna be alive longer, they're gonna be consuming more, they're gonna be drinking more water and they're gonna be kind of pooping and belching more. So there's an argument that they're actually producing more each particular cow thing as a result.

1:40:49But there's fewer cows though. And they require a lot more land and the longer they're alive, obviously they have to be fed longer. So when you look at it from that perspective, understanding that producing a carbon neutral or carbon positive effect of a so-called regenerative farm requires 2.5 times more grazing land than standard animal agriculture. You quickly realize that this is not a realistic path forward in terms of providing meat for the world. Like it can provide a small amount of meat at a higher price point for those who can afford it. And certainly that's a better option. But in terms of meeting worldwide and growing demand for meat, as of right now, more than 50 % of the planet's ice-free land is already being used for livestock grazing and for livestock feed production.

1:41:48So even if we continue to use conventional agriculture methods much less 2.5 times more land, there's gonna be little to no arable land left if we wanna continue producing animal-based foods for the expected population of nine to upwards of 9.7 billion as we approach 2050. And I think part of the issue that maybe I'm having is that there's an implicit sort of greenwashing aspect to this in the sense that you can go to one of these restaurants or you can purchase your grass fed whatever, and you can convince yourself that you're doing what's in the best interest of the planet, or you're making a choice that is serving,

1:42:42serving planetary repair. When in truth, look, beef just requires a tremendous amount of resources. And right in front of you, you have the choice to just not eat beef. It's like eating this beef is not really helpful. And I say that with the caveat that again, like regenerative farming practices that are, doing a lot towards restoring the soil is a good thing. Just don't be under the delusion that by eating these animal products that you're solving this problem. Right, that you're on the good side of climate change or any number of issues you're saying. You're still participating also in this cycle of unnecessary suffering.

1:43:24And when you look at plant products, like for example, 100 grams of tofu requires 74 times less land use compared to 100 grams of beef. And that's not to say that that's an argument for mono cropping, but at the same time, I think there's a lot of hand wringing over certain crops that are very water intensive at the cost of not understanding that most plant crops and foods that we can eat as humans are just far less intensive than, you know, the ultimate intensive food product, which is beef. So I'm just saying, why not more plant-based? And I think there's an argument with Sage, like, oh, we're kind of moving forward into this way of serving food for a reason.

1:44:11But I have to think like if it was thriving economically as a plant-based restaurant, would they have made that move? And I think we're seeing the closure of a lot of plant-based restaurants right now. And I don't know what's going on with that, but I think if Sage had been killing it, they would not have been making this. Clearly, that's it. They're trying to survive as a commercial enterprise. As a business, that's it. that you can, in the letter, I think, or I forget in the announcement, I think Molly said that her husband kind of grew up on a farm eating animals as well as vegetables and always found it less authentic to be serving kind of vegan comfort food.

1:44:55I think Molly is still vegetarian. Right, but I think that, but so they're kind of dressing it up as a choice kind of beyond economics, but it seems to me, considering all the vegan places that seem to be going out. Nick's, you know, the, what's it called? The Monty's Good Burger went huge and then retracted quite a bit. Yeah, but Monty's is still. It's still around, but it went really big and then it retracted quite a bit. They closed a lot of their restaurants. Running a restaurant is hard. Under the best circumstances to make a restaurant successful commercially is incredibly difficult. So I'm sympathetic to anybody who's trying to, keep the lights on and COVID, as we all know, like resulted in, just a, I don't know what percentage of restaurants closed, but a lot of them.

1:45:43So even in the wake of that, then this long tail before people started returning to restaurants. So I understand why diversifying a menu might be the best way forward. I'm just saying like, don't be confused. Yeah, like don't be confused. and it's just a more, it's a nuanced difficult thing. I'm not an environmental scientist, but there are people who spend a lot of time studying this and looking at it. And I'm gonna link some stuff up into the show notes if you wanna learn more about this. Simon Hill, our friend over at The Proof Podcast has done a lot of reporting on this. He did a really, he's done a number of interesting podcasts on this specific topic.

1:46:25So if you go to theproof.com, you can just search regenerative, whatever. and there's plenty of episodes for you to listen to. He's had George Monbiot on, who is very outspoken about this. George, of course, who writes for The Guardian. George has basically said, the only thing worse than feedlot beef is grass-fed beef. Like he does not make his words. He's against it. Yeah, he's very against it, but he'll go through all of his arguments. I'll link up some other articles as well. There was a recent interesting study that came out in 2023 that basically looked at the difference between pasture-finished cattle farms and these regenerative farms and basically determined that pasture-finished cattle farms had 20 % higher production emissions than grain-finished farms, a figure that matched those from previous research.

1:47:20But the most novel part of the finding was that when both the soil sequestration and the carbon opportunity cost of the converted pasture land use was factored in, that carbon footprint figure rose to a striking 42%, which is super interesting. That is interesting. So anyway, this is a very hotly debated topic. There are passionate people on both sides of it. And so I'm not saying that I have all of the answers, but I think it's important to look at both sides of this. And that's all I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. You have anything else you wanna say on that? Well, there was a great book by a guy named James Rebanks who was a legacy farmer.

1:48:02His father and grandfather were basically, we'd call them ranchers, but they're farmers in UK, Northern England, I believe it is. And he inherited a farm that was, they were renting their land and it had lots of problems. It had soil that was degraded. It had, there were bills to pay, Fences to Rebuild, and he kind of took it over and decided to make it more regenerate, like went the regenerative route. And he wrote a really beautiful memoir about it. And what you're left with after that book is that, isn't that regenerative farming is the Holy Grail to our food system, because I agree with you.

1:48:41I don't think it is, but what you're left with is, it's communicating with the land again. It's reinvesting in the soil. It's birds come back. It's building topography back. I mean, remember when we went to, if you go out to the surf ranch, I went with Rich to the surf ranch, we shredded. Yeah, it was amazing. We were amazing. Kyle Lenny is still talking about it. Kyle Lenny can't stop talking about it. But when you go out there, it's in the middle of this kind of decaying agricultural town, like near, and it's on an Indian reservation, but there's also this kind of once vibrant agriculture town that's down on its heels because there's so few farmers needed now.

1:49:25It's just all monoculture. It's super monocrop city. Right, it is. And maybe that's the way you can make a living. I don't know. I'm not judging anyone, but this is another way. It did feel like you're not communicating with the land, you're imposing on the land. I get that piece. Yeah, to reconnect us with the land and to understand its seasonality and the importance of diversity. Like all the lessons that we need to learn for ourselves can be learned through the process of that reconnection. And just having that happen. And there's something really beautiful and spiritual about that. Like I don't discount that at all.

1:50:00And I think if you were to go to the Central Valley in California and take over some of those plots of land and do that very thing where you're restoring the soil to create something beautiful and diverse and amazing, I think that that's a laudable project. But what I don't think is a great idea would be to deforest a plot of land so that you could build a regenerative farm because the deforestation is doing more for the environment than whatever you're gonna do on that regenerative farm. So it's the conversion of plots of land that are contributing to the decline and converting them into a net positive, I think is great.

1:50:41Right, it's great environmentally, but from a food system perspective. How important is it to have cows on these? Like, my whole thing is like, can't you do this without the cows? And there's a lot of talk, well, the cows, and they, you know, they, you know, they mash the soil and I was like, yeah, but like, there's other ways of doing that. I know, but you're not - But I'm not a farmer either. I'm just talking out of my ass. Well, you're also - My bias. You're against killing animals. That's great. Right. You are against it. Well, if you, you know, yeah, but if you're growing these plants on these farms, like lots of animals have to die for them to, you know, like I understand.

1:51:17I've had this conversation with April just to gooser cause I don't eat beef, but I mean, but we talk about it like, you know, if you love animals, you know, if there's no, if people aren't eating meat, there ain't gonna be no cows around anymore. You know what I mean? Like all the farm animals won't be there anymore. That's not a reason to eat them. I'm not saying eat them. I'm just saying like we live in this. Yeah, but we breed them. I know, to eat them. They're not there because they were wandering around and we corralled them into some farm. It would be a fundamentally different experience to have this world where the foods is.

1:51:53I agree, I take the Dan Buettner, shout out Dan Buettner. I take the Dan Buettner kind of, how I stopped eating meat was the blue zones. I started to only eat and I had chicken and beef, anything meat of three times a month, because in his mind, that's what the blue zones, that's what they did back in the day in a lot of these blue zones. It was a special occasion thing, it was expensive and they use it in a special occasion. And by doing that, my taste buds changed. I lost the taste for it. I don't want chicken. I don't want beef. I don't want any of that because I lost the taste buds for it.

1:52:28And so then I started to just eat plants. And so - But what happened with this argument with April? She doesn't like that. She doesn't like hearing, she thinks I'm just making an excuse to eat meat, which I'm not doing. Like people who have this, who are, I was never a passionate vegan. I just happened to go this route because I thought it was, because I liked it and it felt better. And also, yes, I don't wanna kill a bunch of animals. Like I don't wanna do that, but I'm not like, you wouldn't put me, I wouldn't be out. Like if you made me a climate activist, I wouldn't be throwing tomato soup at Mona.

1:52:59You're not gonna go throw blood on - No, I'm not throwing blood on - I'm not one of those people who's gonna get outraged like that, but probably because I ate meat so long, right? And so I understand why people do it. But the problem is the food system, right? Which brings us back to Johan actually, and what we were talking about before. The problem is this food system is broken. And so, in order to get to the point where we can talk about getting rid of animal farming, it's like a much bigger conversation about changing the food system fundamentally from this extractive, impositional kind of dominator culture way and going back to a more communicative, integrative way of being.

1:53:52So in that sense regeneration sounds great, it is great, but is it, and maybe it's the only thing that's gonna save your restaurant. But I take your point, let's not tell stories here. Let's not like marijuana is legal now. There was a time when it was only legal as a medical, but it was never medical. It was all bullshit. It was always bullshit. I was at the time, couldn't wait for it to be illegal medically. I was all about it. I covered it as a journalist. I was in some of the first medical marijuana shops in Los Angeles, in San Francisco too. I thought it was awesome as a person who liked to enjoy it, but I never thought it was for patients, but that's what was said, right?

1:54:33And so this kind of idea that regenerative farming is good for the environment, I agree with you. There's a lot of dishonesty in that. It's not telling the whole story. And I wish that more people told the whole story and weren't trying to pass a line. And I'm not saying Sage is doing that. I'm just saying in general, as you see people marketing something and saying it's for one thing when really it never was for that thing, it kind of leaves a bad taste in your mouth. And now we have, I don't know how I got on this tangent, but now you can go to the farmer's market in the morning with your kid and someone's gonna be getting high like on the street.

1:55:08And is that good? You know, is that an improvement? You know, so like these kinds of things, when you don't, when you're not honest about it, you can't really grapple with it. And then all of a sudden it's here. And back to Jonathan Haidt, back to Johan, the same is true when we're talking about Zempick, the same is true with these social media companies. They say one, you know, anyone who's saying something, but not telling you the whole truth. I think you're contributing to the confusion and the chaos that we're all living with today. And that's why there's so many outraged people because people aren't being honest.

1:55:38That was a pretty good monologue. Was it just, I felt like it was good. I like how you called things back and you just wrapped it all up in a nice bow. I don't even know what to say to that. I think you're right. I think, yes, when you look at regenerative farms, like our food system is broken. Part of what's broken is our total disconnect from the cycle of nature in our food system and even beyond that, right? And to the extent that the regenerative movement is a way to repair that lost connection, it's certainly a good thing. We do need to repair our soils. We do need to understand that resilience comes through cultivating diversity.

1:56:17Like there's so many lessons that are applicable, not just with what we plant and what we harvest, but how that applies to how we as humans interact with each other and create the cultures and the future of our aspiration for future generations. Like there's beauty in that for sure. But again, yeah, just like, let's not be deluded or confused about, you know, standing or like sort of moral grandstanding on, you know, some kind of misplaced justification around like eating beef when it's unnecessary. And that's part of what's contributing to the problem. That's all I'm saying. Yeah, less moral grandstanding.

1:56:56And I like Ryland, I like him a lot. He's a beautiful guy and I always enjoy his company and I love the podcast conversation that we have. So it's not about a slight on anybody. And I think the work that he's done and the advocacy that he's done around this movement is really laudable, like Kiss the Ground and these movies that he's put out, like they've really struck a chord. And for a lot of people, it's their first, it's like light bulb moment of like, of course this is what we need to do. And you are seeing young people who are interested in getting into farming and wanna learn more about like agriculture.

1:57:29And the more that this matures, the more economic kind of resources get poured into it. And the more jobs there are for people, like learning how to transition factory farms into regenerative, like there's so much good there. So I'm not, I guess what I'm saying is like, I don't wanna, I'm not being like a angry vegan poo-pooer, I'm trying to see all sides of this. Well, also it is sad to lose another bespoke vegan restaurant. Like Sage is awesome. I ate there many times. I've eaten at Cafe Gratitude many times, Gracias Madre many times. I remember the old Real Food Daily, like these are restaurants that we grow to love because we can only go to a few restaurants, right?

1:58:14And so then we grow to love them. And so then when they change, especially in this way, it's kind of a bummer, right? And then as a - And then, you know, Then there's a segment of the vegan community that's very loud and aggressive about these things. They wanna kill you. Yeah, like they get really mad and that's not helping anybody either. No. So. Right, the tone, like there was something in this Eater article, I don't know if you're gonna post it, but about Rylan and Molly's father kind of launched Cafe Gratitude, right? And Gracias Madre. And then when it became out that he was doing this agriculture and the animal agriculture and he ate meat, he was given death threats.

1:58:50I mean, I remember when that all came out. I mean, that's crazy. Because I think people were responding to a sense of duplicity. Like there was this idea that it was, you know this idea like a utopia where they had this cyclical thing between the farm and the restaurant. And there was an integrity to that, that when they, I don't know that they were ever hiding whatever they were doing, but when it came out, like, oh yeah, I eat meat that that's, I think for certain people that was like difficult for them, but that's not a justification for like that kind of spiteful anger. It's no right, that's the point.

1:59:24This person's choice in their life, you can disagree with it, but you're not winning hearts and minds when you're like launching death threats of people, I guess is what I'm saying. And for some reason, vegans haven't won hearts and minds. I don't know why. They really haven't. They really haven't. I don't know. You do, you do, you manage to do it. I don't know, man. You do, but I will say before we stop all the doom and gloom, we do have planta now here in LA. Oh yeah, that's right. There's multiple locations. And everyone is different. They're all over the country now too. I went to the one of Marina Del Rey and the owner, like the owner of all of them happened to be there and got to meet him briefly.

1:59:58And yeah, they're doing a good job. Yeah, they are also. I like that place. Yeah, it's good. So in the meantime, eat a salad, treat yourself right. And we'll be back here at some point in the future. All right. All right, that was fun, dude. I appreciate it. Me too, man. Yeah. Can I ask you a question before we get out of here? How's the network going, man? It's good. How are you enjoying being the head of a network? It's baby steps, but we're out of the gate and it's going well. I'm really enjoying like working with other creators and supporting them and figuring out who we wanna work with and all of that.

2:00:33Like it's been really fun and rewarding. And we're at the very beginning of what I think is gonna be a cool journey. Awesome. So I have more to share about that later. Okay, cool. But yeah, it's been great and keep us posted on the novel. Will do, will do. I can't wait to see what happens. Cool. I like coming here because I can't check my email while I'm talking to you. Are you sure you didn't do that? I didn't. Okay, well, you can do it now. All right, buddy. Love you. Cheers. You too, bro. Peace. Namaste.

2:01:19That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

2:01:58This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful and finally for podcast updates special offers on books the meal planner and other subjects please subscribe to our newsletter which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camillolo the video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director Dan Drake portraits by Davey Greenberg graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis and thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management and of course our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt and Harry Mathis appreciate the love love the support see you back here soon peace, plants namaste

2:03:18Here, here.