ROLL ON: The State of Podcasting In 2025

28:35But apparently there are stories in the newspaper, so-and-so stuck in the mud flats. Are you old enough to remember when we were kids and it was just all about quicksand? We would talk about quicksand all the time. There was an obsession with quicksand and people dying in quicksand. And then that just went away at some point and people don't talk about that anymore. But when I was 12, I can tell you nationwide, there was a conversation happening amongst my peers, my age group, around quicksand. Yes. The different ways to die. As you grow older, you learn more and more ways it could happen, you know.

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34:06All right, what do we wanna talk about? All right. Let's talk about, well, first of all, this week we put up a podcast with Dr. Jessica Nurick. I mean, it's Monday morning when we're recording this, this podcast that you're listening to or watching will go up on Thursday. But it's been cool to see this guest be embraced by the audience. Somewhat of a controversial conversation that we have around the state of the Make America Healthy Again movement which I felt compelled to have with her and I'm glad that I did. And it's been nice to see her message embraced right now. I wrote a Substack article that I published right before we started recording with some thoughts on that conversation and kind of what's going on generally with the Make America Healthy Again movement and what is actually going on behind the scenes with those who hold power and the impact and implications of how that power is being used and leveraged, mostly in the context of deregulation in ways that are actually undermining any good faith attempt to actually make America healthy, setting aside the again part, which is debatable.

35:34But anyway, I think it feels good to kind of take a stand on that, understanding that it might be divisive or controversial. And it also feels good to begin to share thoughts on Substack because we're in the process of really looking at how we can use and leverage Substack for the benefit of the community. I think it's a really powerful and super cool and also very intuitive platform that we really haven't been taking advantage of. And I recently participated in this thing that Elizabeth Gilbert has on Substack. She was a guest a while back on the podcast. We still haven't published that episode, but she has a thing called Letters from Love.

36:21And she's developed this community of over 200 ,000 people. And what she's doing is encouraging her community to practice this thing that she's been practicing for a long time, which is to write a daily letter to herself from this perspective of love. Like, dear love, what would you have me learn today as a prompt, right? And it's an exercise in self-love and in kind of honoring yourself and showing yourself gratitude. And she, every week invites somebody to perform this exercise, write a letter, share that letter with her community and kind of make a video where they read it. And she asked me to do it and I did it the other week.

37:05And it's a confronting exercise for somebody who is challenged with the idea of self-love, which was kind of the subject of the letter that I wrote to myself and shared. but it was cool. But I think even more cool than that was to see the engagement of her community around this one idea. And it led us to thinking about what our version of that might look like because I think the real benefit of Substack is the way in which you can cultivate community, which is something I've been thinking a lot about in the broader kind of context of podcasting itself and what I wanna do with it as somebody who's been doing it for a long time.

37:50Cause it's changed quite a bit since I began the humble beginnings where it was the kind of purview of the hobbyist where there was no business plan and it wasn't a income generating adventure, let alone like a vocation. But now things are very different. And so I thought it would be cool to kind of talk about that a little bit, like the state of the union of podcasting. Like I said, you know, it had a humble history. I had a sense when I started it that it would grow into something bigger and more meaningful than it was at the inception, like back in 2012 when I began, which was early. I wasn't one of the first, but I was pretty early.

38:34And what it's like now, which is it's essentially become almost mainstream media. Like all these people - It's going that way. Basically all running their own public access television show and working very diligently to garner people's attention. From my own experience, what's happened is that in many ways, podcasting has become almost an adjunct of the publishing industry. Publishers realized pretty early that the way to sell books is to book their authors on prominent podcasts. And I've participated in that economy for our mutual benefit, I would say. And it's been great because it gives me access to interesting people because they're making themselves available to promote their wares, their goods, their latest book, their latest offering.

39:26But it's kind of gotten to the point now where it's harder and harder to create something that stands out and that's unique. And individuals who are good guests learn quickly that they are good guests and start making themselves available for lots of podcasts. You know what I mean? So when the prominent individual, be it an author or whoever is like, okay, I need to get out in the world and promote something, they are going to book themselves on all of the podcasts that are similar to mine. So you enter into this equation or this agreement where you know that you're gonna get access to this person, but you also know they're gonna go across the street and do the other guys and the other guys and the other guys.

40:11And by the time you publish this, this person is going to appear essentially simultaneously on all these shows. And what happens over time is that all of these shows start to look similar and bleed together. And when you layer on top of that, the incentives that are now in place in podcasting, it creates a very interesting situation where in order to stand out in what is now a very crowded marketplace, you need to learn about things like algorithms and analytics. and what gets people to not only pay attention, but to sustain that attention. And that has costs and benefits. Like if you do it right, you can benefit by growing an audience and maintaining a large audience.

41:03The cost of course comes at kind of the whole raison d 'etre of the entire affair. Like when you start to book guests based upon what you think is going to grow your audience or what's going to constitute rage bait or incite people or is going to lend itself to creating a bunch of clips that have the potential to go viral, to me, on some level, you're sort of losing the plot of the whole affair. And I've been thinking a lot about this and the ways in which it's impacted me and this show and how I want to kind of move forward in the context of this environment that's now very different from the one in which I started.

41:50And I think while everyone's out kind of chasing trends, oh, this works or we need this kind of intro and that hooks people and here's your title and your thumbnail and all that kind of stuff in this world that is increasingly video first as opposed to audio first, which is the way that we started. rather than chasing trends, where's the white space? What are people not doing or underappreciating in this whole thing? And for me, much of it goes back to the very beginning, which is the whole appeal of this is that you're crafting, curating, and cultivating something real, something honest and something authentic that is appealing because it's not in a rush and it's not trying to manipulate you or game your attention.

42:37And so that is why I've been doing these longer intros in the audio version of the podcast where I can share my thoughts and take my time. I'm not interested in whether you're gonna, you know, click away five seconds later, like that's up to you because I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. And I also think in the context of this, when everybody is so focused on growth and audience capture and attention farming, that the real differentiator isn't the size of your audience, but more the depth of your audience. Like how real is that audience? How loyal are they? And how well do they feel like you're nourishing them?

43:18And the differentiator, in my opinion, is going to be that community piece. Do they feel like they're being nourished? And how can you, rather than being focused on growth, like how can you really serve the people that are already there, who are, you know, taking time out of their day to pay attention to what you're doing. And I think the answer to that is by emphasizing and investing in ways to bring them in even more, which is why, you know, we have this new studio and we have this theater, we're going to be doing live events and live podcasts and creating more immersive experiences. And it's why this Substack idea, leveraging it to bring the community in and try to create some kind of community based enterprise around it, I think is so vital and important and exciting.

44:08Cool, man. There's a lot there to kind of unpack and tease out. I love the letter from love that you did. And I'm, you know, Liz old friend and she's asked me to do one. And at first I thought when I first got the instructions, I was kind of hastily read them. And I thought it was like a letter to your younger self. And then, so I thought, okay, I have an angle on that. And then when I realized what it was and I read yours and I'm like, oh, this is much more challenging actually than I thought. And when she first approached me with it, she goes, she thinks it's such an important practice for men to do because we are less likely to be so sweet with ourselves or to even tap into that angle, not to that we're less likely to be sweet with ourselves, but we're just less likely to even consider that lens to which to kind of filter our perspective.

44:54And so I thought I was gonna do it in Alaska, like five, my five or 10 minutes to go sit there and do it. But I haven't done it yet because I'm afraid of it. Well, the whole thing is like, don't spend more than five minutes on it. Right. Nobody only spends five minutes on this. I probably spent like two hours on it. Right. You know? But you might've done the original thing and then played with it. But in terms of the Maha stuff, I thought in your post, you mentioned Trojan horse. And I think that's like a perfect analogy because Maha was kind of brought into the fold during the campaign as a way to lock down the election, right?

45:33So it was kind of a strategic, it was never about we believed in these things. It was about we believe that this thing could help us get what we want. And so, and it worked, right? It totally worked. And then as to your point, I don't wanna belabor it, but like in your essay, which I thought was brilliant, you lay out how, yes, red dye number 50 is being cast. 40 out of them. 40, getting cast aside, seed oils. And you mentioned all the things, but then you're like, yeah, but the Clean Water Act's being repealed, the drinking water act's being repealed in certain ways. And that is going to impact us in a much greater way.

46:13And so I thought that was really well said. So I just wanna reinforce that. Yeah, I mean, I think that what Jessica did such a brilliant job at elucidating was providing a sympathetic understanding around this groundswell of support because it is good that we get these dyes out of our food. And it is important to say out loud that big pharma and big food and all these companies are, you know have incentives that are at cross purposes with our individual health and our collective wellbeing. It's just that the solutions to those problems are not actually what's happening. You know, what's happening is massive deregulation that's giving all of these, you know, kind of quote unquote like corrupt behemoths more and more bandwidth to do as they please.

47:09And it's easier to continue for them to do as they please if every once in a while they voluntarily say, we're gonna swap this for this and our ingredients, not because the government is making us, like they're volunteering it. It's not like anybody's telling them they have to. And they get like a little more latitude to play behind the scenes in ways that people are not paying attention to as much as perhaps they should. Right. That's all. All the information we're getting on how things are unhealthy is because there's a regulatory framework and because universities and institutions have had federal money to do certain kind of research.

47:50Now the federal money is going away from universities. So the research is gonna be much more privatized. And so that means it's gonna be in the hands of industry more and more. It is already in some respects, but it's gonna be more so. And so the science, you're gonna have less science to kind of be able to gauge what's healthy and what's not. So there's so many, at least that's my limited understanding of it, but that seems to be at risk, right? The ability to research what is unhealthy and what is healthy is being compromised. And then of course, the EPA is no longer gonna be able to regulate pollution.

48:25You wonder when power switches back, because it always does, cycles end, cycles kind of fold in on each other. How much of this becomes the new norm? Because it's so hard to get things passed now. Like, does this, is it become the new norm? You know, does it? It's a good question. So it's troubling. One thing that history teaches us is that the more that you grant, in our case, the executive branch power, like it's hard to then take that power back from them. So this tripartite system where we have the three branches of government that are supposed to operate in parity with each other is very much out of balance.

49:13Like more and more of that power is obviously been transferred over to the executive branch. And once it's there, it stays there regardless of who's in office. So that's the, right. So there you go. But anyway, that's one piece of it, like the Maha piece of it. And I've been following Jessica before, I didn't, you know, when I found out she was on the pod, I was like, wow, cause I've been following her on the same kind of track over the last few months. And she's explaining it very well. Like you can get, you can understand why people are attracted to that movement, but then like you say very well, but that's not the whole story.

49:52And sometimes these days where it's almost impossible to tell what's real and what's not, you can easily get roped into supporting something you're not supporting. The great example of that is the hunters that had to rise up and scream and yell about the big, beautiful bill because the public lands that they rely on for recreation were getting sold if it went through. And to their credit, credit Cameron Haynes. Yeah, Cameron Haynes made a big push in raising awareness around that. And they were successful. They got that dealt with, but it took quite a bit. It did. And short of the sort of Teddy Roosevelt Republicans standing up and letting their voices be heard around this, it would have sort of surreptitiously just like passed through.

50:41Yeah, but part of it was the podcast realm came in as well. So Cam Haynes kind of tapped into that and it just rippled like the Teddy Roosevelt aspect, like you said. But the thing that I thought was amazing, the reason I wanted to bring that up, I know it's a little bit older news and shout out Kyle Tierman, who also was public on this, is that Kyle, the environmentalist, also likes to hunt occasionally. And Cam, who voted Republican, Kyle did not, Kyle's a Democrat. It's one of the few times you actually see hunters and environmentalists coming together. You don't see it too much. When it comes to marine protected areas and the ocean, the commercial fishermen kind of have their take.

51:24And those political takes usually get absorbed by the recreational fishermen. No regulation, please no more regulation. Our waters are too overregulated. And the same thing happens often in ranching and hunting communities in regards to open space and public lands. This was the first time I can remember, and I've been involved in some ways in the environmental movement since the 90s, that these two groups came together to actually get something done like this. It's almost always there at odds. And so I feel like that matters. I don't know if it's something we can build on or not, but I think it matters.

52:01And part of it is the intentionality behind a guy like Cameron Haynes, who cares deeply. He's deeply passionate for the earth. Now, how can we communicate with that side of the aisle and come together on other issues? Because I feel like - To build from that. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it is such an interesting thing because truly, at least in America, Like, you know, environmentalism was born out of, you know, the Republican perspective, courtesy of Teddy Roosevelt, who said, we need to protect these lands and we need to kind of, you know, exercise our federal power to make sure that they stay the way that they are and that they are preserved.

52:43Like, he's the original American environmentalist. Right. You know, and so, and so then, you know, but then, you know, these parties shift and morph and the tectonic plates of policy, move them in different directions such that environmentalism became the purview of the Democratic Party and deregulation of the environment that of the Republican Party. But as in all cases, when there's overreach in either of these, be it with the Republicans allowing corporations to pollute these lands or trying to pass a bill that's gonna allow the privatization, Like, you know, the sort of, you know, building of developments, et cetera, you know, on these lands, there's gonna be a backlash.

53:31Similarly on the left, when they get, you know, they get too crazy about the regulation, then there's gonna be pushback. So in the middle, you have, you know, Kyle and Cam who are kind of like avatars at the center who are coming together to resolve an issue that I think we all, you know, it was pretty, pretty, pretty much, you know, at least, you know, amongst the citizenry, you know, unanimous that like, we can't do that. Right, exactly. And you look at, so not to, I don't wanna bring up names and have people get off screaming yell, but like, it's not that, it's not like our health secretary doesn't understand the link between the environment and all this stuff.

54:12He helped found, he founded Waterkeeper. Waterkeeper is one of the great environmental organizations out there. And he did a lot to clean up the Hudson and other rivers and that organization still exists. Right, and they're amazing. It's done a lot of good. Yes. Which makes it all the more curious and bizarre. Like the whole thing. The whole thing, which brings us back to the podcast realm you're talking about. It's so interesting because while this deregulation is happening on the national level and in relation to the environment and food systems where there's increased regulation on one hand in a narrow way, but more broad deregulation, the broadcast universe is like, that's the tectonic plates that are shifting the most.

54:56And we feel it here in Los Angeles where there's less work for longtime crew and up and comers who wanna start as PAs and get into production. There's just so much less work in Los Angeles, partly because of that production work. But then also it's just that the nature of the economy that is broadcasting and filmmaking in general is shifting. And we come out here to this amazing studio that you guys built and you're one of, I didn't realize it at the time like when you were putting this together, I've only learned it over the last year or so, but you are one of several now that have popped up kind of indie podcasters that have grown and grown and you have a footprint here that is a real part of the broadcast future.

55:45And we think of you, I think of Mel Robbins, Steve Rinella, that you can, you can, you know, obviously Joe Rogan was the first with his studio in Woodland Hills and now in Austin, but you have kind of a small footprint in relation to the others, but actually a growing one. It's really interesting to see how that system is changing. Yeah. We're definitely in this flux state of transition in terms of the media landscape, you know, writ large and small. We have the Colbert show getting canceled. That's a whole sticky wicket, like why that's happening. At the same time that - YouTube creators like Rhett and Link from Mythical Mornings, Those guys are coming in later this week to do the show.

56:36I'm excited about that. And a handful of others are being submitted on behalf of YouTube for Emmy consideration. So the lines are getting blurred between what is traditional or mainstream media and what is alternative or online digital media. Essentially, everything's on a screen and we're in this position now where it doesn't really matter if you call it television or you call it YouTube, like these things are all just buttons on a screen that we choose. And whether it's being broadcast by a, one of the big four three lettered networks through an antenna and satellites, or it's coming through an ethernet or your wifi into your office on a smaller screen, really doesn't matter anymore.

57:32All of these things are being put in the Vitamix and they're being blended together. And we haven't really emerged yet from that with any clarity. Like right now it's all confusing, but it is true. Like here we are in Los Angeles, the global capital of content creation for as long as any of us have been alive. And people who have had long careers in this industry can't find work, or at least can't find work that pays a habitable living wage. Oscar nominees are driving Uber. These people move from working on television shows or movies into the digital space, looking for jobs at places like this, which I think is incredibly fascinating.

58:20It's so fascinating. And I feel so lucky to even have a foothold in all of this. I mean, we're a small operation in comparison to what many others are doing out there right now. And it's really special. And I'm so grateful to be able to do this thing and to kind of grow it. And now to start to work with other creators and kind of expand what we're capable of doing, which I think is really exciting. But I think it's important to hold on to like why it is that you're doing it in the first place. Because with all of the incentives, like I was mentioning earlier that are out there, it's very easy to lose sight of the why.

59:00And I've, I've borne witness to people who, who are doing that. And when you get to a certain size and scale and you're staffed up with all kinds of people who know how the internet works, I've seen, I've seen people kind of, you know, move into this place where their perspective on what they're creating and sharing is really entirely through the lens of like, what's going to go viral? What's going to be, you know, the thing that is going to travel across the internet the most fluidly. And as a consequence of that, the programming starts to get reverse engineered rather than it being what perhaps it was at the outset, like this more authentic, original kind of organic exchange between people has now become kind of completely predetermined in advance.

59:59And I think that comes at a certain cost. It certainly works. People are, there are people out there who have become very successful doing this and I don't begrudge them. They're doing what they're doing. but I just think for me, and also as somebody who's been doing it for a very long time and wants to continue to be able to keep doing it and be in love with it in the same way that I always have been, like I always wanna come back to the why. Like, and the why is like, I wanna serve the audience in a meaningful way. I wanna create something that will have the potential to be impactful, not on a surface level, but really on as profound a level as I'm capable of doing.

1:00:43And in order to do that, I have to step outside all of the gamesmanship that I think is going on right now and just, you know, lean into my strengths and try to double down on them and allow it to be what it wants to be rather than trying to force it to be something else because this is what other people are doing that's working really well. It's interesting. It's like what we were talking about before you went into that was this, the shift in the flux. And like you said, people from professional broadcasting careers coming over to YouTube. Well, what you just described as gamesmanship or as like planning on the questions and having, you know, what you're gonna get back from the guest.

1:01:27I mean, that's late night talk show. That's talk show stuff. Right. That's Donahue's cards. It's basically going back to, yeah, it's like, you know, all of these things are moving in bi-directional. Right. You know what I mean? Like the talk shows have to become more like podcasts and the podcasts are becoming more and more like the late night talk shows and the morning shows where it's like, here's my card with the question on it. And this question has been vetted, you know, based upon AB testing to solicit the answer that is going to be the most popular with our audience, you know, and it's like, okay, well, right.

1:02:01Now we're doing television. Now you're doing television. And what you're talking about is I got to stay true to my rudder and just keep going and stay indie, but also stay indie in your own mind. It's probably like a Gen X thing. It's like the Gen X, don't sell out while you're selling out or you're guilty about it or something like that. I mean, you're wearing a Kurt Cobain t-shirt, right? This is like very Gen X. I am wearing the shirt, but I did find out, I read somewhere that like when the money started rolling in, Kurt somehow negotiated 75 % of the royalties for himself. So yeah, and he probably deserved them.

1:02:43He probably deserved them. But it doesn't mean there wasn't a part of him that was like, you know, yeah. You know, like the guilt of selling out, you know, it's like, there's this sensibility for people of our age, like the way that we were raised in this sort of, uh, you know, fuck you punk rock. Like it's not cool to care. Right. And everything is sort of, it's sort of like this veneer of nihilism over everything. Right. Where the worst thing you could do was sell out. And now we're in a culture where like selling out is the point, you know, like this is the thing that everyone is celebrating.

1:03:16And like, look, this is a commercial enterprise. Like I want it to be successful and I'm glad that it is. And I'm very proud of it. And I get to employ all these people and do all this cool stuff. So I'm not necessarily hung up on that only when it comes at the erosion of the value system that gave birth to it. Well, I think your intentionality comes through also. And like I was telling you before we got on here that like I called you a tastemaker, you called yourself a curator, more of a mindful curator and like someone people depend on for not just, like we call tastemaker, usually it means what you eat or what you consume media wise, but you're introducing concepts and experts, as well as when we talk about like things to watch and books to read and things like that.

1:04:07So you're bringing that and that intentionality kind of comes through, I think, because the way you started, which was your kind of three niches, the plant-based, the sober living and the endurance sports. So those three niches crossed over and you were able to kind of introduce them to each other. And now you're continuing to do that, that's growing. So that intentionality comes through. And the other thing I think of in that regard is, you know, even though guests rotate between shows and from a host perspective, it's got to like make you a little nuts. But from a user perspective, like how many websites do we actually visit on a daily basis?

1:04:49Like if you really monitor, some people really range across the web. I would venture to guess most people don't. Most people have their favorite sites and they have their favorite shows. And yes, though, you've had this person on and so-and-so has had the same guest on and you can name 10 people that have had that guest on. Probably a good chunk of your audience has only consumed that guest on your show. So there's something about that too because in the siloization of media, which is what we're talking about, and this is one silo, you've actually become a silo. So you're kind of the filter through which some of this stuff gets in, you want to channel.

1:05:31Yeah, I mean, I think there's some truth in that. I think what I was getting at was more that, and this is a little inside baseball or like, you know, how the sausage is made. But essentially, when you get to the point that, you know, where we're at, it becomes very easy to program the show reactively because you get so many pitches like every day, like 20 to 30 incoming emails with so-and-so in their book or whatever. There's, you know, I'm on publicist lists and I get the galleys for all the self-improvement books and all of that. So it's really like, you know, I can just pick and choose what appeals to me and just say yes to this and no to this and booking the show because I'm the only one who books.

1:06:18I know other people have like bookers, People might not realize that, but they hire bookers to like get people to come on the show. Like I'm the only one who books. I'm the only one who is, you know, reaching out to guests and, you know, making lists of people that I want to have, et cetera. But I will admit to having gone through periods where it's just like, it just becomes easy to do that and you don't really think about it. And I've sort of woken up from that phase to realize in this space where, yes, there are these respective silos and maybe there's some kind of cross-pollinization there, but maybe not also because people have their favorite hosts and they want to hear their host talk to this person, et cetera.

1:07:01At the same time, I think there's a lot to be said for really being proactive rather than reactive and thinking hard and long about the people you really wanna have and going after them intentionally. And so I'm trying to do more and more of that to step outside the ecosystem where you're just picking and choosing among the people that are doing the rounds to find the hidden gems and the amazing people who maybe have never done a podcast or maybe only did that tiny one, but it was amazing and you saw it or heard it and thought like, oh, wouldn't it be cool to broaden their reach and amplify their voice by having them on?

1:07:42And so that's kind of like where my head is at in terms of that. And I think the only way to distinguish yourself if your audience is cross-pollinated with a bunch of other people is to venture outside the lines a little bit and make your stamp by doing something a little bit different rather than going along to get along and just following whatever happens to be the trend at the moment. I like it, man. I'm not in demand by the other podcasts. So that's why I'm a good guest for you right now. I'm very much not in demand. I've tried my best, Adam, to like position you as an in-demand guest for other podcasts, but there's only so much I can do.

1:08:26One podcast that needs me. You know, it's up to you at some point. Exactly. You know, you gotta, like, let's, maybe I should have A-B tested a bunch of questions for you and then thrown them at you and we could rehearse before the podcast so that by the time you're behind the mic, you could just lay down some truth or some monologue and we'll clip that. We'll put it up there. It'll go crazy. I get a minute. And then all those podcasters are gonna be calling you. I get invited. I say no. It's like, I say no a lot. I get invited to smaller podcasts sometimes. There's a time and place, there's a time and place.

1:09:01Maybe that day is coming. I am encouraged though by the fact that I think the most popular podcast that we've done in the last handful of months was with Craig Mod. Yes, love that one. And that's also like the longest and the kind of conversation that lends itself the least to the viral clip. You know what I mean? It's like, you gotta be in for the entire experience with this guy. And if you go all in, you will be nourished and rewarded and you will emerge like better than you were before. Yeah. And feeling better, like it's, you know, that was an incredible one. And I love the fact that it was also popular because sometimes, you know, those really deep and heartfelt explorations don't necessarily translate into, you know, views and listens on the internet because people are busy or because whatever for a million different reasons.

1:09:58But to see that is like, oh yeah, that's right. This is what we do here. You know what I mean? More of that, please. Yeah, yeah, I love that one. Go for a long walk with Craig Mod. Yeah, I know. Yeah, he's, yeah, I love, I mean, it's so funny because when that one starts, it's like, here's this really cool, nice guy who has these great insights. But then as the podcast goes on, you realize he's like this incredible polymath that's great at a million things, like great musician. I can create my own social media platform that is exactly like Twitter, because I can code, but I can also write better than everyone else and create these art books and I can walk for days and do, yeah, like.

1:10:41Exactly, exactly. Like by the end, I was like, man, this guy's not an underdog. This guy's one of the greats. I never said he was an underdog. No, no, no. I think he's sort of a quietly under the radar, our, you know, like superhero type figure. Big fan. Cool. Is there anything else I wanna say about that? I think we said what we needed to say. I feel good about the place that we're in right now. I'm excited for the future. I'm excited to be able to expand our offerings and reach our tentacles deeper into you guys, the community to reward you for your attention and to hopefully strengthen our ability to not only feel connected to you and you to us, but to serve you better in a more immersive way.

1:11:31So there's a lot in development right now as far as that goes. And I'm psyched to be a part of it, partly because in this new, like in a way you didn't even mean to be doing this when you asked me to come on and start doing roll-on kind of in the, and as the pandemic hit, but like, you know, when the New York Times shut down their sports section, like a lot of stuff's been shutting down outside fired. I mean, they're coming back and they're doing well, but they did fire everybody I worked for over there. Yeah, everybody got fired. Everyone at Outside Magazine got fired. Like this is happening, you know, all across the board in publishing, in television, you know, only movies that are getting made are these gigantic movies, with the exception of a few we're gonna talk about in a sec.

1:12:18But yeah, like we're in a weird state right now in terms of the business model for media. Right, but then - But what we're doing, I really believe is the future and it holds promise. Whereas legacy media is dying right now. No doubt. You know, sort of network television programming, like all of that, like the business model is just eroding underfoot, you know, as we speak there. And what is that gonna look like in a couple of years? You know, CBS is gonna cut its slate. Like all these networks, like they can't afford to continue to underwrite the programming that they always have been underwriting because the advertiser dollars are not there because the eyeballs aren't there.

1:13:05And the eyeballs that are there are, you know, basically geriatric. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. And that's why I was getting at it, is that it's for me, somewhat a professional in this space that has like always, when I looking back, it's easier to see, but every story I've, almost every story I've done has been about expanding our awareness of what this world really is and what our life is really about. Like if you look at it, like everything from the Goggins books to some of my sports reporting, to my own projects. It's like, it's all about like expanding, expanding that sphere of awareness, piercing the bubble and see that there's so much more.

1:13:51And so for me to land here, it's like, I think that's where we kind of link up in that same idea. And so to be a part of this and to have, you know my small foothold here as part of what I'm doing, it just means a lot to me. And especially because of this audience, this audience has been incredibly affirming for me and just a great place to kind of share what I'm doing and receptive in that way. And so it's like, it's been such a pleasure and I've said it before on social media, but to be able to say it now on the podcast, how grateful I am for the audience, for the listeners here. and to be part of what you're doing.

1:14:35It's awesome. Yeah, well, it's been great doing this with you, man. I love doing it. Yeah, thanks. It's been fun. Thanks. But you know what the most fun is? What's that? What I really wanna do? Watch Netflix? Yeah, I wanna have like a movies podcast. Hey, man. This is like, that's all I really wanna talk about, Adam. Let's do it. All this stuff about change and transformation. It's great, you know? Yes, but let's talk about movies. Yeah, like let's dismiss audience receptivity and just talk about stuff that I think is fun to talk about. Let's do it, man. We should. But I think the role on audience now is relatively attuned to the fact that media diet has become a cornerstone.

1:15:20It is a cornerstone. This edition of the show.

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1:18:33That's mintmobile.com slash richroll. Upfront payment of$45 required, equivalent to$15 a month. Limited time, new customer offer for first three months only. speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. All right, so are we getting into it? Yeah, what have you seen? I've been watching the first season of Deadwood. Have you heard of that show? I have heard of it. One of the greatest of all time. I'm a rewatchable. By, you know, the great David Milch. Oh my God. Who, ask anybody who is a screenwriter and they'll all pretty much agree that he's like the goat.

1:19:15Yeah, yeah. In terms of television writing. Well, he was Hill Street Blues, right? Hill Street Blues. And then what did he do after that? He did Deadwood. Deadwood. He had that show. Didn't he do the show about horse racing for HBO? He did. I don't know how that did. That got canceled. Yeah. I'm sure he's done a lot of other stuff. But Deadwood is, especially the first two seasons. I'm only watching the first because that's to me the pinnacle of it. And then I'll go back to trying to be a current person and I'm not an old bastard, but like that show, that came on HBO right when Entourage was hitting.

1:19:52And so like their big, it was a big Sunday night, one, two was Entourage and then Deadwood. And maybe Six Feet Under was in that lineup. I forget, but it was like this great Murder's Row lineup. And - NYPD Blue, Deadwood, Hill Street Blues. That's it, yeah, NYPD Blue. Which by the way, NYPD - True Detective also. Oh, really? The first season, I think. Okay. I'm looking on IMDb right now. Sorry, go ahead though. But NYPD Blue is considered very much groundbreaking television and Deadwood is so Shakespearean and it's not just the writing, but the acting is just incredible. And to watch, just to watch it, it's like artistry.

1:20:32So for, so, and I, you know, I do like a Western. I do like West. And while Bill Hickok and Calamity Jane and all that. And so if you haven't seen it, you probably have seen it, but if you haven't seen it, that's what I've been watching. And then - And if you love Deadwood, then maybe check out the podcast I did with Titus Welliver. Oh yeah. Who talks about Milch in that conversation. Oh does he, okay. Yeah, definitely. I mean, he comes in at the end of the first season. I think so. It's been a while since I watched it. My boys love it. I think they recently re-watched the whole thing themselves and they talk about it all the time.

1:21:08Yeah, yeah, it's unbelievable. Swearingen is one of the great - All right, so you're staking, you're planting your flag. At Deadwood? Yeah. I've been watching Deadwood, the Dodgers. And then I read a book, I mean, it's Media Diet. So books do books count? Yeah. For now. James Rebanks, exactly. James Rebanks new book, who shares an agent with you and I, a bird is his agent, called The Place of Tides. He is, I think, the best naturalist writing today. It's one of the best nonfiction books I've read since Zytune. I've put it on the list of five or six top books. It's very quiet, beautiful, kind of earth-based and earth and water-based book.

1:22:00And it's about, he wrote Shepard's Life and Pastoral Song, which is, you know, his day job is running a farm in the north of England where he was born. His family has been farming there, ranching there for 600 years. And he basically did regenerative agriculture, brought that to bring his family farm back. And so the first two books are kind of about that. And this one, he embeds himself with the eider down duck ladies of the Norwegian islands. and so he spends a season with a 70 year old woman who has brought back an age old custom which is goes all the way back to the Vikings which is to protect and provide shelter for eider down ducks, eider ducks to come on land protect them from predators and then let them hatch their eggs and then when they go back with their young to the ocean they leave the down behind And so all this idea of like down is kind of cruel.

1:23:02This is not that. Eiderdown is not that. Eiderdown is like, they just leave it behind in their nests. And so he spends, it's this way of life that has gone obviously vastly out of fashion. Everyone's leaving the islands. The kids go to Oslo. And she has brought back, she went to islands that were all built around this economy since the Vikings. And since she was a kid, the islands were still functioning this way in a vast way. and thousands of ducks were coming to the point when she was having kind of her own midlife crisis, the ducks weren't there, no one was doing it. And she brought the custom back to several islands, she and some others.

1:23:39And so he met her and he spent a season doing that. And so that's the book. And it's remarkable. I'm sure the writing is beautiful. Yeah, it's poetic. And it's easy to read and just like you go on and he has these incredible insights It's about kind of our humanity and what it means and the nature of the modern world. Because we're all kind of stuck. What it is, is we're all like kind of cogs in this modern world. And we have to detach and look around every once in a while to kind of realize that we're not that because it's become all consuming. And I think that's really like heart of the book is like that he is this high functioning guy doing running this, he's written bestselling books, he's in demand and he wants to be in demand because it gives him, somehow makes him feel validated.

1:24:31And being with her, he realizes actually being part of the land and sea and the wind, and she's part of everything when she's doing her thing. It makes him realize that that is actually the point. Right, that's the whole thing. Yeah. I love it, that's beautiful, man. Thanks man. You've gone very high brow. I'm going highbrow. This week. Yeah, and one last thing, Eddie Palmieri, the great Salsero, the great musician, Latin jazz and salsa innovator, Latin music innovator. He died at 88. He's one of the great, if you haven't, this is a media diet thing. If you haven't ever listened to Eddie Palmieri, he is an absolute maestro.

1:25:16He kind of was one of the first to put out like six, eight minute songs on record. like the record companies weren't doing it. And he did it because of the band he put together, started playing piano at eight years old in Washington Heights. He's a Washington Heights kid. He's a New Yorker from Puerto Rican descent and just a master musician. And I'm not gonna drone on too much, but there's an incredible obituary in the New York Times that I can give you the link if you wanna add to the show notes and just Spotify him. And I'll throw a few songs on there if you want for people who are interested in that kind of thing.

1:25:53I love all kinds of music. And if you're not a big salsa or person, give it a listen, because it's funky and deep and really cool. Nice, man. Yeah. That's a good one. Hey, thanks. It made me think about a documentary that I'm excited to see that I haven't seen yet. This documentary on Jeff Buckley, it's coming out soon. I love Jeff Buckley and I'm fascinated by his life and his music and this life that was cut short far too early. I'm not sure when the date of that is coming out. I'm starting to see previews around that. It's a biopic or a documentary? It's a documentary. Yeah, it's a documentary.

1:26:34But speaking of movies, I mean, I'm gonna pick the low hanging fruit here. I mean, I saw weapons this week and it's just like amazing. This movie is fantastic. The marketing's amazing. Looking at the posters, and they freaked me out the minute I saw them. I'm not like a huge horror guy. Okay. So I'm not necessarily like the, you know, the prime audience for this kind of thing. Like I like horror fine, but I'm not the guy who's like running out to see the latest, you know, scary movie or, you know, Friday the 13th or whatever, Blumhouse or whatever. Yeah, it's like, it's fine, but it's not like, that's not my sweet spot at all.

1:27:13But I do admit to really enjoying this new, trend of kind of auteur driven horror is high art, like the Midsommars, you know, those types of movies that are, yeah, get out, things like that. Like these directors who are pushing the envelope and kind of redefining horror. And that's what obviously made me interested in weapons because it was clearly if you watch the trailer, like this is in conversation with those filmmakers and those movies. but I steered away from reading anything about it or wanting to know too much about it or even the director who created it and who has his own like really interesting story in and of itself.

1:28:01Like he comes from improv comedy and it's like a very interesting origin story. So I suppose I went into it with a projection or an assumption about what I thought it was gonna be. And it just wasn't that at all. You know, it's sort of a movie that keeps you on its toes because every time you feel like you have your footing and you feel like you understand the movie that you're in, it becomes a different movie. And it's almost as if he's playing with these tropes or these things that he's dropping into the frame that you're used to seeing. And you're like, oh, when I see this, it means this, or this is what's gonna happen.

1:28:38Or I can foresee how this story is gonna play out. and he's constantly subverting those expectations. And it's really fun. Like it's uproariously fun and it's funny also. It wasn't necessarily, I mean, it has a, you know, the construct of it is like a scary idea, but I wouldn't say like it scared me, you know, it has disturbing moments for sure, but it's wildly entertaining and super fun. And I think, I mean, I checked like a day ago, it was scoring like 100 % on Rotten Tomatoes. Like people love this. And when I went to the movie theater, it was packed. And I think movies are really back in, in no small reason due to Sinners 28 years later, which is also amazing.

1:29:28I heard that's great. And now this movie, like these are, these are really well done, very crowd pleasing movies that have brought audiences back into the theater in a moment where it's like, oh, theaters are dead. And the movie going experience is defunct. But if you make great stuff, people will come. They're coming out for this. It's great. My kids went to go see Naked Gun, which is like, I'm not that interested in seeing it, but apparently that is like really well done and they loved it and it was super fun. And it's been a long time since like a broad comedy was in theaters. Is it the Zuckers again?

1:30:04I don't even know. No, are they still making it? I don't know. I should know. If I'm gonna host a movie podcast, I should know things like this. Well, I'll watch these. I'll watch these. The point being like, when was the last time there was a really broad comedy that did really well at the box office in theaters? Like really, you know, like on the broadest level, like a movie like this. Step brothers probably. Yeah, that was a long time ago, right? Like they're not making these kind of movies. It's probably because these movies don't do well overseas. So they don't have the global return. Comedy doesn't transfer.

1:30:36Yeah, so they're not making them because these things cost money and more money than they used to. Right. But anyway, weapons, that's my choice. I still wanna see Eddington. I haven't seen it yet. Okay. But I'm busy. Right, we're busy. Even though I can't move my body. You can't move your body and I can't get out at night. So it's kind of like we're a little bit mixed, but I think weapons is on Netflix, right? Weapons is in the theaters right now. It's in theaters only? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in the theaters. Okay, so I need to see it. Yeah. I need to see weapons. How about F1? Did you see F1?

1:31:07Yeah, I saw F1. Okay. I loved F1. I mean, the cinematography is fantastic in that movie. It's something you really should see on the big screen. I don't think it's in theaters anymore, is it? No, maybe not. I didn't see it in IMAX. I wish I had. The story is incredibly basic, but I think it needs to be because there's so much else going on. Like the sport is so complex And I think they did a really deft job of trying to explain it without too much exposition or leaning too much into the insane complexity of the whole thing by focusing on like tire choice and, you know, some kind of basic strategy stuff that a broad audience can understand.

1:31:52And it's wildly enjoyable. Okay. I was at the formula one race in Austin a couple of years ago. Right. with the boys and had the opportunity to be in the paddock and visit the Mercedes garage. And like meet, I got to very briefly meet Lewis Hamilton and Toto and like, you know, it was a wild experience. That was his last year being the best too, I think. Or was up there. That was the year that he was starting to struggle a little bit. But while in the Mercedes garage, where you have the headphones on and you kind of hear what everyone's saying, like this was like the day before the race when they were, I think, no, actually this was during testing maybe, where the drivers are out and they're reporting back like how the car feels and what they feel needs adjusting and all that kind of stuff, which is super interesting to hear.

1:32:53But literally like standing next to me was Brad Pitt. but he was like, you know. And then we went into like each of the teams, you know, they have their own garage and then like across the little roadway paddock, you know, in this paddock area, they have these hospitality suites where they have like, it's a little cafe kind of situation. And like Brad and Joseph Kaczynski, you know, are sitting with Lewis Hamilton. And they're like, you know, this is like two years before the movie comes out. Like they're figuring it out, which was wild. That is wild because Brad Pitt's character is basically Lewis Hamilton now, right?

1:33:29Like he's like on the, he's at the end, towards the end of his career and - Brad Pitt is 60 years old. Well, right, but that's the idea, right. No, he's not playing a 60 year old though in the movie. No, but he's playing in a much more, have you seen the movie? No. Okay, so you're talking out your ass right now.

1:33:48I am too, even though I saw it, but anyway. I wouldn't draw that much of a parallel. Okay. Yeah, I think they were really, really careful to not over-identify the characters with any, you know, existing drivers in an unfair way. And they also did a really great job of, obviously it's immersive because they're filming this like in the midst of these races going on. And so the real drivers and the real cars are part of the story, but not in a way that intrudes upon the narrative such that the real life drivers become characters necessarily, which I think was a smart choice. But Joseph Kaczynski, who's an engineer by trade, like he was a mechanical engineer long before he was a filmmaker, like he is engineering these movies in really fantastic and unique and creative ways.

1:34:41Like they had to basically come up with all of these new cameras that separated the lenses from the bodies so that they could place them all over the cars and hide the bodies underneath the chassis. So the cars wouldn't, would still function properly and their weight balance and aerodynamics. I mean, like you can go down the rabbit hole on YouTube and like on sort of behind the scenes and how they actually did this. And it was, it's quite a master stroke. Interesting. It's like the way George Lucas had to create new cameras. He's creating new booms and new, like new ways of holding cameras, I would imagine.

1:35:15And I would buy stock in Joseph Kaczynski because he sort of emerged as one of the most prominent filmmakers when it comes to super high budget action, thrillers, because he's able to do things no one's ever done before. And it's thrilling to watch them. Well, I would agree that movies are back and TV is kind of like slumped. You can't think that's one of the reasons I'm watching the first season of Deadwood is that like, we just, although we did watch the bear, but like we did watch the bear recently. We watched the, we didn't talk about the bear. You know what I started rewatching like in my convalescence because I just wanted, I wanted something that made me feel good, that was earnest.

1:36:00Okay. And so I went back to the beginning and started watching Friday Night Lights from the beginning. Oh, yes. And that show holds up. Yeah. It's pretty good. It's kind of awesome. Right, the show, not the movie, the show. It's so earnest in a way that you don't kind of see right now in culture. and I found that to be heartwarming. Okay. So that's it. I think that concludes Media Diet for this week. It does. Any parting thoughts? Well, we should shout out some of the, the shout out to Friends of the Pod. Yeah. Friends of the Pod update. Friends of the Pod update. Who's out there doing stuff? Well, while we were all sleeping, David Goggins and Harvey Lewis were finishing Bigfoot 200.

1:36:45a 200 mile race that I think is like 47 ,000 elevation gain and loss or something incredible. Where does it take place? It's in the Cascades in Washington state. And David hasn't competed in quite a while. No, he keeps it super under the radar. And I didn't know he was competing until Ben Pryor. Shout out Ben. Shout out Ben sent me a link to the tracking and I was tracking him and I haven't talked to him about the race or anything yet, but it was such a pleasure to watch him do it. And I just, and I like, I knew he was at towards the end, he was like picking up pace and just like, like he always does and tracking people down.

1:37:25And I think it was like a top 20 finish and Harvey was right there. I think Harvey finished around the same time. And so it was, it was cool to watch, to watch both those names and go and go and go, but it was a long one. It was like, it's like, it must be harder than Leadville. So it's like a three, well, it's 200 miles, but it's twice the distance, but even Moab, I feel like was incredible too. And that's 240 miles. This seemed to be the same amount of time for less miles. So I think it's the terrain. Wow. Yeah. Meanwhile, Kate Courtney won the Leadville 100 mountain bike race and record breaking time.

1:38:04Incredible. So shout out to her, which is cool. Under seven hours. She's a machine, man. Do not get in her way. That woman is so capable. Whatever she chooses to focus on in her life, I have no doubt she will, you know, set whatever you would consider to be a course record in whatever pursuit it is that, you know, she decides to laser in on. One of those. She's an extraordinary person. And Tom Holland back in the Spider-Man suit, back on set, people seem very excited about this. for all the Marvel heads out there. I'm sure there's other people who have been on the show who are out doing interesting things right now.

1:38:46We haven't, was there one other person that you had on the mind? No, Tom, oh, Christian Blumenfeld. Oh, Blumenfeld. What's he up to? He's been dominating. He's out there winning. He's winning all the races he enters and he's just like crushing the comp because I think he had one down season where it was hard for him to get on the podium and people wondered, is that the end of the Norwegians? I did a podcast with him in New York right after Kona. Right. So five years ago, Christian wins gold at the Olympics. He moves into half Ironman and Ironman becomes a dominant force in that world. And then decides that he wants to return to the Olympics in Paris to win gold again, this unprecedented thing.

1:39:28Well, all did not go as planned. He did not have a great performance in Paris. he went from Paris to Kona to step right back into Ironman where he was just throwing up and blew up. So that didn't do very well. We did a podcast in New York city right after that. And he kind of shared his experience and how he was going to pick up the pieces and move forward. And it seems like he's done that because now he's back and he's crushing it once again. Yeah. Yeah. He just won the Ironman 70.3 championships. And then he won Ironman in Frankfurt, which was the European Championships. He's won his last three events, gold, gold, gold, and he's dominated.

1:40:08Awesome. Yeah. All right, man. Well, I think we did it for today. I'm gonna close this so I can get a review of you. How do you feel? I'll close mine too. I feel good. I'm gonna look you right in the eye, Adam. Tell you I love you. Oh, thanks, man. So grateful for our time together. I love you too. This friendship that we have. Me too, man. It's great. It's a great time. You know what? I appreciate your taking a stand in the health and wellbeing of our world and having me along for the ride. Awesome, man. Thank you. You go. Let's do this again soon. Let's do it. All right, buddy. Peace. Thanks.

1:40:49That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome.

1:41:27and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com slash sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor.

1:42:08And of course, our theme music was created all the way back in 2012 by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste. Thank you.