The Divine Comedy of Pete Holmes: Spirituality, Creativity, & Growing Through Adversity

26:58Yeah, but... Okay, go ahead. This is what he said. I want to hear all of it. I'm going to stop talking. But he was like, it's the all carb diet. That was what he said. What do we got? Tell me. I love Rick Rubin. But if you listen to him talk about what he was actually eating on a vegan diet, it's easy to understand why he gained weight. Like I think it's very, he was a bread vegan. If you eat just tons of refined carbs and it's never been easier to be a junk food vegan, you can eat a horrible diet on a vegan diet and delude yourself into believing that you're doing something healthy for yourself because it doesn't have animal products in it.

27:33But that doesn't mean that it's healthy or moving you in the right direction. Yeah. And so if you start eating animal products, which are more calorically dense and like sort of quotient to it, you'll feel full and you probably won't be eating as much junk. Whereas if you're eating a plant-based diet, you have to find like, you know, whole foods that are close to their natural state and avoid all of the processed foods that are out there and all the products that they finally figured out how to make taste adequately okay. You know, coconut ice cream and all these, you know, products that are good if you're getting into it for sustainability reasons or for, you know, compassionate reasons.

28:15Exactly. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy. So, you know. Well, I love this. Because I do deal with cognitive dissonance. And listen, when you have a small child, like, it's harder, you know? Like, your life is more complicated and you're tired. And when you're tired, you're going to reach for the thing that's less healthy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm in a weird place because of that. Meaning, it just sort of started happening and then it just was easier. And now I'm here. Like anything. Exactly. Yeah. But actually, it wasn't just sloth. it was like simple. I was like, I'll just grill a piece of fish and have some broccoli and I'm done.

28:56It's easier than like... Yeah, I understand. Piecing it together. No, I have no judgment. I'm not judging you at all. You don't believe in the suffering of animals, including me. Yeah, I know you don't either. So I guess I would just say, knowing what you know because you've lived this lifestyle before, there's a dissonance, like a very low-grade hum, right? Where you know, like, this isn't necessarily in the highest alignment with the person that I'd like to be. No. And there's a lightness or a sense of freedom that comes when you can correct that alignment. That's true. And I might be deluding myself, but I do catch myself not judging other people, which was a thing for me.

29:40I'm not saying for you. But when you're a vegan and you feel like you're opting out of the suffering, it's not really true. No, of course not. And I think it's not in service to the vegan movement for vegans to be on their high horse judging other people. Like we all, you know, just by dint of living on planet Earth, we are tapping its resources and, you know, leaving it. This table was the house for an hour. There is nothing. And, you know, the food that you're eating, there's a cost to all of it. Like nobody is living on the planet without creating suffering. Right, right. Right. So at least acknowledge that and, you know, maybe step back from all the judgmental ism that only alienates other people anyway.

30:21Right. Right. Yeah. I'm not even proud of this, but I have caught myself being like, I'm just being honest. Like this whole thing is brutal. And I'm just like, and I'm just in it. there's sort of like a, this is what I mean. It's not as airtight as being like, how could a sentient thing and the suffering and factory farming and all that stuff. The best I can come up with, and I'm not saying I like it, is just going like, it's what's happening. I know. And I do suffer because of this. I'm telling you, knowing - What had to happen for this phone to be in my hand? Like how many people had to suffer for this to exist or the battery that's in my car or the dye that was the runoff from the T-shirt that I'm wearing.

31:06How many fish died because of that? Like, you know, when you really telescope up and try to look at our consumer choices holistically, we're all wreaking havoc. And we can try it a little bit more lightly. Yeah. And we can all do better. But I think when you refrain from judging other people on their decisions, you create an opening or a sense of welcomeness in which we can have a productive dialogue about how we can all do better, not by pointing fingers at other people and judging them, but by acknowledging our own fallibility and, you know, imperfections. I think that's well said. I do hate it.

31:47People used to come, when I was a vegan, they'd be like, well, you know, when they're farming the almonds, they suck up rodents or whatever it is. Well, there's, I mean, it's just, there's always a whataboutism. Well, you know what it is? There just is a heartbreak to this reality that you were just touching on. And I think what's annoying, for lack of a better word, is there's no way to opt out of it entirely. And I think that leads to a certain defeatism that people go like, well, you can't win, so you might as well eat some chicken. Truth. True. But like every change in the world starts with people changing their minds about things.

32:24Right. Every big change, every social change, every revolution started with one person doing something different. Like I think we actually do have a lot more agency. And for someone like yourself who is in front of audiences and talking behind a microphone for many, many years, like you have the power to influence a lot of people. And I think when you're walking a certain walk and living your life in a certain way, there's a real potency to that that can change people. I think you're right. I'm telling you, I'm over here, but I'm not like, you should come to my side. No. Do you want to feel conflicted most meals?

33:02Get over here. It's great. It's great. And people say, why? And you just go, just kind of lazy. It feels awesome. Come over here. You devil. you watched the special did you watch it i did you're one of the few people that have seen it i know thank you for sharing it with me when is it coming out end of october okay cool yeah congrats it's super funny thanks man yeah um you've come a long way man you've been doing this for a while yeah god it's been like 22 years or something and now i'm working on my new hour I mean, I feel like... So this hour isn't even out yet, this special, and you're already cracking the next one.

33:44I have the next one. I was just talking to Neil Brennan. I was like, I have the time. You wouldn't call it an hour until it's really polished and sort of interwoven and tight and sort of thematically clumped and stuff. I have the time, and it's starting to get woven together. The callbacks and the interrelatedness of the bits, It's starting to present itself. But this is the, I just did Denver Comedy Works like two weeks ago, and I did this new hour, not the one that's going to air at the end of October, but there is a new hour, and I'm like, what I was going to say is I think you can relate to this as one of the great secrets to joy on the human plane, not in like any spiritual or super meaning of life way, but just like the bread and butter day-to-day how to be a happy human.

34:35having some infinitely playable game. For you, I think it's ultramarathonic, you know, like the athletic. There is something, if you'll allow, athletic about doing a new hour. You're trying it, you're testing it, you're risking, you might be risking injury. I'm risking like psychological injury, humiliation. And that really motivates you. Like you, if you have, sorry to force this, But like if you have a race coming up, you train because you know you have this race. When I have a weekend coming up, I write because I know I have. And I have a show tonight because I have a show this weekend. And you got to work it out.

35:16So when people like struggle with writing their novel or whatever, I'm like, yeah, no shit. There's no pit of spikes and flames beneath you. Like I'll suffer pain tonight if I don't do my homework. Right. If you had to get up and read a chapter from your novel once a week or whatever. Yeah, yeah. That would help. That would help. Like put it and David Sedaris and other people like that do that. But like, if you're just wondering why you're sitting around tinkering on a screenplay, I'm like, because there's no risk. Yeah. Like stand up is like a treadmill. If you stop, you fall off. You know what I mean?

35:54It's not it's not running in the woods where you can just start walking and no one knows you didn't hit your goal.

36:03After hosting more than 900 episodes of this podcast, I have noticed a pattern. And that pattern is that the highest performers don't buy into the latest trendy hacks. Instead, they obsess on what actually works, which is always the unassuming basics. And there is nothing more basic than hydration. But here's the kicker. Your body can't hold onto water without the right minerals. Without them, water is just like this temporary, visitor. But Element has cracked the code on this, which is why I've been using it religiously for years. Zero sugar, no artificial junk, just sodium, potassium, and magnesium in the ratios that actually work.

36:44And look, I'm not exactly crushing ultras right now, healing from this surgery, but in some ways I need it even more. In order to properly recover, I need to treat my body even better than ever. So it can heal properly and expeditiously while also maintaining my focus and my energy levels to rock out all of these podcasts, write a book, be a husband and a dad. And I gotta say, Element keeps my brain firing in a way that water alone can't. Their new sample pack features their most popular flavors. Citrus salt, raspberry salt, watermelon salt, that's my favorite, and orange salt. Eight stick packs total, perfect for finding your favorite or sharing with a friend.

37:26Get a free eight-count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinklmnt.com slash richroll. Find your favorite Element flavor or share it with a friend. We're brought to you today by the wonderful folks at Go Brewing. Let me tell you a story. A few years ago, this guy Joe Chura rings me up out of the blue, and he asked if I'll fly out to Illinois and speak at this event that he was hosting called Go, which ended up being this really incredible weekend oriented around taking inspired action. Joe and I hit it off, but that was kind of that. And it wasn't until I ran into him a couple of years ago at Jesse Itzler's Running Man event that I realized that he had taken inspired action himself by creating this new enterprise that was also called Go.

38:14Go Brewing, in fact, which from Go has grown into what it is today, one of the most exciting revolutions in craft brewing. One of the many things that makes Go Brewing extraordinary is that they don't outsource like most companies. They handcraft everything from scratch in small batches. In fact, this commitment to quality has fueled their growth into one of America's fastest growing breweries, now in over 5 ,000 locations across 20 states and available online. The Salty AF Gelata earned the untapped number one non-alcoholic lager in the United States. and they're constantly creating bold new flavors almost every month that push the boundaries of what non-alcoholic beer can be.

38:55Double IPAs, mouth-watering sours, all with zero added sugars and none of the junk. Hear that? Incredible stuff. The non-alcoholic revolution is here, people. I am proud to help champion it alongside Joe. So get on board by getting with Go by going to GoBrewing.com, where you're going to use the code RICHROLL for 15 % off your first purchase. Go.

39:28When it comes to health, sleep is a big deal. And there's just so much science out there to back up the role that it plays in every facet of well-being, from heart health to mental health, recovery, cognition, and just being able to show up as your best self. Getting a quality eight hours per night is a personal, non-negotiable that I go to great lengths to ensure. It's sort of a commitment not only to myself, but to my career and to those that I love that all begins with what I'm sleeping on. Now, I've tried many mattresses, but the one that's really won my heart is Birch. And there's many reasons for this, all of which boil down to the simple fact that Birch just does things right.

40:08in addition to being incredibly comfortable and cool, helping you regulate temperatures at night, which are essential for quality rest. Birch mattresses are also firm in all the right places and all their materials are sustainably sourced, including organic fair trade cotton. And also everything is hypoallergenic and toxin-free, meaning no harmful off-gassing typical of most mattresses. Birch is so confident in their product. They're offering both a 100-night risk-free trial as well as a 25-year warranty. Plus, they provide free delivery right to your door in a conveniently sized box-up. And so I want to offer all of my listeners the chance to enjoy a deep and restful night's sleep with a new mattress from Birch.

40:55So right now, you can get 27 % off site-wide plus two free EcoRest pillows with mattress purchased. Just go to birchliving.com slash richroll.

41:11Walk me through your creative process from how you're finding ideas, how you're remembering these ideas, working on them. How does that work for you? Well, it's very different 23 years in. At the beginning, you're like trying to write jokes, like what will make people laugh. And now that I'm in my 40s and I've been doing it a long time, a bit presents itself when something comes up and you have a very strong feeling. Like there should be some word in Greek for it or something. Like there's this feeling that you know. I really have strong thoughts and perspectives about this. And I feel sure-footed in my thoughts, even if it's something as stupid as Q-tips.

41:56I have a very strong feeling about Q-tips. not I know I can make that funny necessarily, but you look for the passion feeling first. And then you go on stage and you kind of play with it. You know, I don't write it out. So when that occurs to you, though, do you like open up your phone and write it in a note? Or do you do a voice memo? Like what is the practical process? I text myself a lot because there's something about being in the car that takes over your, you know, your body. So your brain is kind of free to wander. So I'm texting, I'm sending myself a lot of crazy texts saying text Pete Holmes.

42:31What do you want to say to Pete Holmes? Q-tips is acting like they don't know we're putting these things in our ears. And it goes, your text to Pete Holmes says Q-tips act like they don't edit. You're just like a crazy person. And then you have sort of the outline. So nowhere is it written down necessarily like what you're actually going to say. But like, then I go on stage with an idea like that. And I tried the Q-tip joke. It's very funny to talk about a silly joke, seriously. But I was on stage a couple nights ago, and it just came out. I was like, something like, when are the people at Q-Tips going to stop gaslighting us?

43:07Like, they don't know we're putting these shits in our ears. Right, because it says, like, don't put it in your ear, right? It does. But also on the back, it has the balls to say it's for first aid. I'm like, who the—and this is just coming out, because I care. I go, who is the lunatic putting Neosporin on a Q-Tip and then putting it on their— No one, no one is doing that. And then the second one is makeup. And then I'm like, surely the third one will be cram it in your ear. The third one is clean your keyboard. And I was like, what fucking nonsense is this? They know we're rotating, touching the brain, getting that ear G spot.

43:44And it's just coming out because I care. And it's like, then, then, you know, the comic in you looks for that's like, you want like, that's like Coca-Cola being like, this is a product to dissolve teeth in. You guys are drinking it. But even the word gaslighting, now we're laughing about family dynamics, like the way that this is just a human thing. We're going to ignore reality. There's a corporation just ignoring reality. They have meetings. I was like, did they draw the blinds and put the Q-tips in there? Like secretly? That's an area where I feel like there's a joke. Whereas when I was starting, I was like, what's the employee discount at the dollar store?

44:26That's a good joke. But like now I'm looking for those things that I'm like, I can't stop talking about how Q-tips is fucking lying. Right. But then you have the theme emerging from that, which is like the mass delusion of humanity. Right. So you can use that to tie different bits together and create something coherent out of the whole thing. Well, here's the other thing that I thought you might think is interesting. When you've been doing it 23 years, you start stealing from yourself. So I'm putting together a new hour and you're like, let's say I have a joke about Q-tips. And then you're like, I wish I had a joke here.

45:01And then you remember you do. You've never done it. You never recorded it. And maybe you wrote it in your first three years of standup when you were bad. But the thought had a kernel in there that was good. Now you're doing what I call old new. It's new to them. And you might rework it. but you're stealing. It's a great feeling. Do you have stacks of journals though that you've been keeping for years that you go back and find those things or you just remember, oh, I thought about that many years ago. A lot of it just kicks around in the brain. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I do have journals from my early years but like most of it just kind of goes like, oh yeah, or somebody says something and I go, who has a joke about that?

45:42And I'm like, I do. It's a wonderful feeling. You start to become like a, I don't know, Like there's someone else working in there. How often are you going up? Okay. Well, I'm glad you asked because at this point in my life, and this is something I'm very passionate about, when you're starting comedy, you go up like every night, right? Or you want to, and then you do. And sometimes you go up multiple times a night and then you go out every weekend and you're just constantly working. And that's like 20 years or 10 years, maybe. Like the first six, maybe you're not working because nobody wants you to work.

46:18Then there's the middle portion, this 10 years of hitting it really hard. And now I'm in the second part or third part and not a lot of comics are talking about this. And I'd really like to go on the record that there's a third phase, which is like a balance phase where you're trying to get the levels just right. And instead of mimicking other people's processes, you start honoring and valuing your own. So I do a monthly show at Largo where I do an hour. That's the bulk of my stand-up in a month. To get ready for that, maybe I'll go and perform at the comedy store once a month, maybe twice a month.

46:58And like tonight I'm doing Dynasty Typewriter because I'm working this weekend. So I just want to reheat the hour. But like most of the time, there's like writing down notes and jotting stuff up. It's taking advantage of all of this work that I've put in to be, have a comic mind and trust that when I'm on stage, it will come out appropriately. And then most of my life, the greatest compliment my wife gave me, people say, what's it like being married to a comedian? And she's like, I barely notice that I'm married to a comedian. Don't get me wrong, we laugh and we're silly, but it's not this, what everyone assumes it is, is that like, oh, you must be traveling all the time.

47:36People are like, how's life on the road, people say to me. I'm like, I go out one weekend a month. That's it. That's three weekends not out. And you know what? most people work all day, every day. So one weekend a month, condensing all of my work into three days, pretty fucking good. And nobody's really, comedians are in this great position. A lot of creative people are in this great position. A lot of business people are in this position, like entrepreneurs and stuff to get those levels just right. But I don't see a lot of people trying to kind of Tim Ferriss it, trying to, my friend James Bashar is one of these guys.

48:13It's like, yeah, I just, um, I only answer emails on Tuesdays between 10 and noon or whatever. And I'm like, comedians should be doing this. Let's get those levels right. Let's not just be pirates, you know, going out and drinking rum and swimming from ropes all the fucking time. Yeah. I mean, that is the stereotype tortured person who's spending all their time in, in the comedy clubs and also in their, in their kind of pedestrian life. Everything's a bit, they're never just relaxed and living their life. Well, we moved up kind of, it's funny driving here. I was like, I'm driving home because we live in Ojai.

48:47That was. Oh, that's right. I forgot you live in Ojai. Yeah. I felt like I was on my way home. Everyone's moving to Ojai. Are they? Are you like Rob Bell's next door neighbor now? Well, Rob does live right up the street from me. And it's fucking incredible. And I really credit Valerie for that choice. Like she's this great counterbalance. I'm very fiery and she's very, I don't know if she's watery, but she balances it out, you know? And she was like, we love it when we go there. I think we should move there. and we did and it was hard for me to do because you can't just pop down and do a set well i was scared i was scared i'd vanish yeah i i thought it would be too far to do shows and then i'd stop doing shows and then i'd lose my identity and now what am i just in a rocking chair like what do i do it's not been that way at all and for the first time in my life like i'm not putting down my comedian friends but neil brennan who is one of my comedian friends he's like there are no friends in show business.

49:41He's like, we're all just in a bar fight. And sometimes you're punching in the same direction as the random guy next to you. And it gives the illusion that you're on the same team, but it's really just a bar fight that may or may not be true. But I will say now I just have like, for the first time in my life, I feel like Bigfoot, like friend, like I'm learning what it's like to have a coffee shop that I go to. And if I'm not there and sometimes I'm not the next time I'm there people like hey where were you and i was like well i was here and they want to know they're not you know not that all my friends are doing this but they're not gaming me they're not we're not talking about projects and casting or any of that shit we're just human beings hanging out and i've never been happier this time in my life is the happiest time in my life that's great because i'm starting to enjoy your life yeah yeah well it's funny that you say that That was our slogan, my own personal slogan.

50:37I was like, good life when? Good life when? And you don't have to be a fancy show business jerk like me to do this. There's a lot of our friends, regular work, you know what I mean? But they figured out we can do this. We can make it work here. We can do this. And it's not just Ojai. When people say, like, should I move to Ojai? I'm like, well, first, you got to get your life fucking right. You know what I mean? I'm fulfilled. I know what I need to hum. And that's a certain amount of sets in a month. And that's a certain amount of writing. And that's a certain amount of performing and creating.

51:12And I go, okay, how much of my life is that? Okay, maybe that's 18%. And then like having a good marriage. Our marriage is fucking great. Having a daughter. Our family is fucking great. Okay, now we can rally this up and move it somewhere. But you can't just move somewhere and hope it fixes you. You go there. There might be a lot of quiet up there for you to figure out. you're doing some things not correct. Right, right. I mean, it's a big lifestyle change. For people that don't know, for you, you were like living in the heart of Hollywood, right? Yeah. To go to Ojai, super sleepy, beautiful place.

51:45Yeah. Everything closes at like, no. Yeah, the cadence of life up there. I mean, you might as well be living in, you know, Decatur, Illinois or something. I'll tell you just because you kind of live out here too, or far from the city-ish. It's so not a problem. I credit it to having a daughter. First of all, I credit it to our life just being right and everybody being communicative and honest about their needs. You know what I mean? That's huge. I didn't know how to do that in my 20s. And now I say, I need to do a set. Like, I'm going to do a set. Like, you know, it doesn't even get to that place.

52:18They're just in the calendar. But the drive has become sacred time for me. It's not wasted time at all. It's where I get all of my reading done. It's audiobooks. It's where I get all of my learning done. That's where I get all of my phone calls done. I'm not talking about business calls. I told you I talked to Neil Brennan today. That was on the ride down. We just talked for 30 minutes. I'm being like a better friend, a more available friend. And not only is it not a problem, I'll drive in. I've done this before. I'll drive in from Ojai, have a meeting at like 11, drive back, I'm home at 1.30, drive back for a show, drive back, I'm home at 11.

52:57And I'm just like, when I lived in Los Feliz, it wasn't Hollywood, it was Los Feliz, and Judd's office, when we were doing Crashing, was in Santa Monica. It was two hours. No one thought that was crazy. So you see these delusions that we're all under that we sort of reflect back to each other. If it's in L.A., what are you talking about? But that's its own delusion, because anyone who doesn't live in L.A. would consider that to be lunacy, which it is. It is. No, all of this is insane. And all you're doing is cutting across down. Buddy, that drive was worse than the drive up to Ojai all the time.

53:35And then I look at it as like math. It's like when I'm in Ojai, to go to the grocery store, five minutes. Five American minutes. To drop my daughter at school, ten minutes. Actually, she just moved school so it's closer. We could walk. If I'm going anywhere, pick anywhere. The beach, 15 minutes, right? In LA, each one of those would be 45. So 90. But no, I'm not really trying to sell living in the country as much as I'm saying, like, get creative about your blocks. You go like, well, that's 90 minutes in the car. That's ludicrous. It's like, yeah, but when you go to Whole Foods here on Santa Monica, there's 45 minutes shopping, 45 minutes back.

54:15But the real block is in your mind. The, you know, the fear of irrelevance by opting out of being part of that like hamster wheel living there. I actually appreciate that. That is the fear. And there are some people I know that live up in Ojai that you can feel them drying out and they're like, I just got to be in the mix. I've been done trying to be in the mix for a while, but I've also been doing it 20 years. So there's a lot of privileges to check here. And one of them is a career privilege where I'm like, I can stack my Monday. I did my podcast, or it's Tuesday, but I did my podcast this morning.

54:47I'll do this with you. I have dinner with my friend. I'll do a show tonight. not a lot of people can go, hey, Rich, when can we do it? Let's do it on this day. Hey, Dynasty typewriter, I want to do a show on this night. Can we do it? There's a lot of things in line. But I also, to talk to the other side, I know a lot of people that have way more access, way more money, way more power, whatever you want to call it, that aren't doing this. So, you know. Yeah, no, you've consciously carved out this really unique career. I mean, congratulations for moving out and enjoying it. I think it's great. Like if we're not gonna enjoy our lives now, when are we gonna do it, right?

55:27And to have that awareness is a credit to you and to the work that you've done on yourself. And in just reflecting upon your career, it's super unique. Cause on the one hand, you're a standup, like Neil Brennan and John Mulaney and all those guys that I know you're friends with. You also have this television career. Like you're now you're like turning into a sitcom guy. Like you went from crashing and you did that bowling show. Forever to be known as that bowling show. And like Night Court, like what is going on? You're doing all these shows. That's a whole conversation. I know, but hold on, put a pin in that for now.

56:03So you have that side of your career. Then you have the podcast, which you've been doing. When did you, I mean, you started before me. It's been over 10 years. I mean, everybody's got a podcast now, but it's rare that I meet someone who's been doing it longer than I have. and I think 2011 or something like that. When did you start? Yeah, that sounds right. It's been 12, 13 years, something like that. It's crazy. When you invited me to do yours, it was like upstairs. It was at that comic book store. Yeah. Is that there? That's not there anymore, is it? No. I think it's gone, right? No, it is. Yeah.

56:34That was a, we didn't know, but there was a golden time. Yeah. I was being, you know, I wouldn't say I was being taken advantage of, but like I was with a network that was taking, nobody had figured out how to turn it into a job right yet right i certainly hadn't it was just i did it forever before yeah we did it for years and years and years and making no money no if i got a little check i'd be like oh my god and now i look back and i'm like what what the fuck was that like that's ridiculous but anyway now we're sort of in this opposite time you know everyone knows this, but like, we're now competing with Conan and, and I think all five talk show hosts.

57:14They're doing a mega podcast thing right now. I'm just like, when does it end, guys? Like, how do you have to, there's this great, uh, New Yorker cartoon that I love by Leo Cullum, the late Leo Cullum, and it's dogs in a boardroom and they're wearing suits and there's a chart of growth. And the dog is saying, um, it's not enough that dogs win cats must also lose and i just think about this like insatiability where it's like if there's money to be made fucking go everybody go and i know i'm over here piddling out my thing and i've enjoyed my coziness and now i'm like you type in comedy podcast it's it's hard like one of the reasons i keep doing it one i love it i absolutely love it But I'm also like, I can't throw away a following because now if you start a podcast, it's really hard to get a following.

58:06Oh, it would be so difficult to start now. Impossible. And you can't underestimate the impact of podcasting on comedy in general. Like every comedian now has domain and control over their work and connecting with an audience in a way that they never did previously. And it's launched careers. It's been very good to you and to a lot of people. And comedians were the first movers. Yeah. In the early, early days, even before you started. Yeah, Marin. It was, yeah, it was Marin. It was Kevin Smith is actually the OG, right? Like Corolla, those guys. Yeah, like all the Doug, Doug Loves Movies. Remember that show?

58:45Yeah. Is he still doing that? I mean, those, it's the comedians who were first. Yeah. And you're absolutely right that the tastes change. It's like changing the diet of an ecosystem, right? Like once the comedians started getting more comfortable sharing all of their feelings and thoughts and kind of getting more personal, which was a big part of the phenomenon, then the audience that came to see me, for example, would know all this stuff. Yeah, they already, they know you and they know what they're getting involved in. They're there because they want to see you, not, oh, it's a comedian. Let's see what he's got.

59:18And they want to know the real you. so sort of off the table I remember I don't know what he ended up doing but there was a comedian who came out we don't need to say who it was but he was like a little bit older than me and he was like but when I'm on stage I'm still going to talk about having a girlfriend and kind of be like you know what I mean and I was like oh I don't think that flies anymore like and that's wonderful for someone like me like I want to share and be known and now when I go out to audiences the whole Beeple. That thing is like, if you knew me, we could get deeper, faster, funnier.

59:53and if you already listen to the podcast, it's like, you already know my perspective. Let's just, let's dive in and get into it fast. Yeah, but that idea was born out of the alternative comedy movement, wasn't it? The storytelling, vulnerability-led kind of thing. But I wasn't doing that. I mean, that's what Maren does also in a different way. Maren does it on stage and on his podcast, but I learned how to be vulnerable sort of by doing a podcast. The first time I was like, you know, giving grief to my family or talking about my divorce, like I had no bits about being divorced. So like doing the podcast, the first time I talked about it, you really, this is going to sound, it's like Chicken Little, you think the sky's going to fall.

1:00:37You're like, and my wife left me. She actually had an affair. Like you just put a little toe in the water. And when that episode would drop, I'd have anxiety. I'm like, well, I don't even know what the fantasy was, but let's say she's going to hear it, or somebody in my family is going to hear it, or someone in her family is going to hear it. None of these things happen. And then the next week you go like, it was a small Italian man named Bracco, or whatever it is. He used to make that joke all the time. And next thing you know, you're just in the water, over your head of like sharing and sharing, and that informs your art.

1:01:12And then look what happened. I did a TV show that hinges on me being honest about my divorce, but it was podcasting that taught me how to be soft enough and open enough to get to that place artistically. If I had just been doing standup, it would still be what's the employee discount at the dollar store. Podcasting was like yeast in the dough. Yeah. You can't extract the two from each other and how they've informed each other. And that's why I won't walk away. But what do you think about the whole world of podcasting now? Because it is so different than when you started. Well, I don't want to be a grump, but I do think celebrity doesn't necessarily mean better.

1:01:55Well, we learned that with all the Spotify missteps. That's right. Overspending. Just because you're a name doesn't mean that you're going to want to host a podcast that's going to work. That's right. And also, I think a lot of people realize how much work it is and get knee deep into it and realize. And if they're not getting huge audience share right out of the gate, they'll just pull the plug because they have many other things that they could do. But that's it's I feel that way. It probably sounded like I meant me, but I also just mean the guests as well. Like so many of my favorite episodes are people that you haven't heard of.

1:02:28And the true weirdos is called You Made It Weird, so we call the fans weirdos. The true weirdos listen to all of them and they report the same. It's like some, like I always talk about like Pete Davidson did the podcast when he was just a club comic that I thought was incredible. So like list, don't skip like Malik, Malik Elisal just did it today. And I'm like, I know there's a lot of people that won't listen to the Malik Elisal episode. I'm like, you fucking idiot. See you in five years when he's huge. But like, he's funny and interesting today. You know what I mean? So, like, let's be more interesting than Instagram.

1:03:07Let's be more interesting than the tabloids. It's also more gratifying as the host when you can find some, like, gem in the rough and, like, host them, have an incredible experience, and then go like this to the world. Well, that is what I miss from those days in the comic book shop. Before you get ads involved, and I'm grateful for that, through the pandemic, through both the strikes that are happening right now, podcasting is our livelihood. It's like most of it. Sure. And touring. But it's like, so I'm grateful for the ad. So I'm not saying this with any malice, but once you're promising a number to an advertiser, it gets less cute if I just want to have the author of some book I really enjoyed on.

1:03:48You know what I mean? So that does compromise it a little bit. and going back to the meat thing, you're just sort of like, it's just what it is. It's not great, but I can't really have everybody on necessarily that I want. That's a shame. You should be able to do that. You need an iron curtain between the advertising and the editorial. You can't let advertising inform which guests you're going to have on the show. Remember, Malik did the show today, so we're still having the people on, but I can't like, I couldn't have him on again next week. But people who are listening to you are listening, they're listening for the guests, but they're listening because they love you and they trust you and you're a curator of taste.

1:04:31So if you say this is a person worthy of your attention, your audience is going to follow you. I know that's true of the day. You know, maybe you have, you know, John Mulaney on, you know, it's going to get more people are probably going to listen to that. But the drop isn't as precipitous as you might think, I would suspect, like when you have an unknown on because they know that you've thought through this. I like you. Yeah. I like you. Chris Evans did it, Captain America, which was dope. Oh, he did? Which was dope. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. He hasn't done a lot of pods. I wonder if he'd do you.

1:05:01I mean, he's like a fit fella. Not that you only talk to fit fellas. I'd love to have him on. Yeah. It's fun to have fancy people on, but sometimes they're a lot harder to interview because they're so media savvy. They do so many interviews. And you have to find a different way in. In my experience, that's the old Marin trick. I learned it from Marin. You have to tell them a story of shitting your pants. You have to lead with vulnerability. Yeah. 100%. You have to be like, oh, I remember I just shit blood 20 minutes ago. And then they're like, oh. Wait, what? Who are you? You have to. It's the oldest podcast.

1:05:33I don't want to say it's a trick. It's a trick in the sense that it's a trick towards deep, rich, in this moment, fuck the show, just two human beings connecting. I mean, you can't expect somebody to be honest and open if you're not willing to do that yourself. So it's not a trick. It's just we're setting the stage. This is where I'm coming from. When people do it to me, I love it. Yeah. I've said this before, but like podcasts are just an excuse like this for you and me to sit on a porch and have a sarsaparilla. You know what I mean? Yeah. And like, so the more things change, the more they say the same.

1:06:08It seems like, oh, this is so fancy and we're in a black void. but timeless black void timeless black void but we're really just doing what people have always done we're on a wagon ride across the dakotas and we finally get to talk yeah and there used to be more time for that but it's a human need if i were to drive up to ohai yeah this is the conversation that i would have with you but because our lives are the way that they are that's an unlikely occurrence so i have to create all this artifice yes in order to have this come But honestly, if you came to Ojai, I wouldn't be talking in this pitch.

1:06:44No, of course not. And if you did, even though this is natural podcast pitch. You know what we should do? We should actually do that and just imagine that there's microphones on and have a very animated, heightened version of the conversation that we would have. My wife and I are very, very happy. It's just a wonderful gift of a relationship. and every Friday we do a bonus episode called We Made It Weird. It's on the same feed. But the We Made It Weird episodes are Val and I. And if that's not a relationship hack, meaning... Yeah. That's the joke that I have with my wife all the time. What's that?

1:07:22Because she comes on not with that level of regularity, but pretty frequently. And it's like, oh, okay, we're gonna talk now. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. My, even when Lila was a newborn, and we always took at least an hour, sometimes two hours to have like the, talk about the treadmill and the fiery pit of standup, like the stakes. Let's put some stakes in it. Let's get best Pete, not bad date, fucking dumbass Pete. Let's get like, people are going to hear this. And it's sort of like my father making fun of my body, even though that's not what he meant, motivating me to start fasting or whatever it is.

1:08:00Let's put a little pressure on this saying people are going to hear it, not just for the show, but for the conversation itself, for what it gives us. And this is true. Every single We Made It Weird, without exception, starts in a certain way, and I'm usually having some sort of problem that we're unpacking. By the end, I always feel better. Always feel better. And it's like, we could do this, but we don't. So let's hack the system. Let's turn it into part of our job and force ourselves to talk. And it's always the episodes that we didn't want to do. I was like, maybe we can skip this week, whatever.

1:08:40We forced ourselves to do it. Those are always these incredible, we didn't even know what we were going to talk about. And we find something like real because we got out of our own way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sitting here wondering whether this is something that anybody could do, right? Whether or not they publish it, but to create that kind of formality with your partner, to sit down and structure a conversation where this is going to be recorded. We may not share it publicly, but it will be recorded. Yeah. And we will have this for posterity. Well, this might be dark, but I think about like me in a nursing home.

1:09:14It's like fire up the We Made It Weirds. I want to listen to me and Val. I'd like to listen to me and Val three years ago during the pandemic. You know what I mean? When Lila was a newborn. Like these are treasures. So yeah. You know, when you have a sleepover, there's just a tape recorder, you hit record and you just kind of fuck around. Those are treasures. It's a wonderful thing to be able to do. It's cool. So I think if I were a relationship therapist, I would say once a week do a pretend podcast, don't even release it, just record it. I own a bunch of spectacles and I made the grave error the other day of donning a normal non-Roka pair on my indoor trainer when I was riding my bike indoors.

1:09:55And I gotta tell you, it was a disaster. Every three to five seconds, I had to take my hands off the handlebars and push my glasses back up my nose until I got so frustrated I just tossed them aside. This is the dilemma of every active but optically impaired person I know. And as someone who has relied upon eyewear every single day since I was five years old, it is also the source of endless aggravation. thankfully now eradicated thanks to Broca, the stylish performance eyewear company founded by two former Stanford swimming teammates of mine who have gifted everyone like me and quite frankly, the world with their fashionable line of super lightweight prescription glasses and sunglasses with patented no-slip nose and temple pads that are just impervious to sweat.

1:10:47And no matter what you do remain locked on your mug no matter how intense your workout. Without the dork factor, these things go everywhere with me from the trail to the dinner party. Put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20 % off your order with the code RICHROLL at ROKA.com. That's R-O-K-A dot com.

1:11:16In this age of ultimate distraction, endless scrolling, you have this stand-up life. You're a writer. You wrote on Crashing, co-created that show with Judd. You're in these sitcoms now. You're doing all kinds of stuff. You wrote your book that came out, and now you've got another special coming out. But all of that aside, and this is back to my original question around the kind of uniqueness of your career path, you're also in this nebulous kind of new interesting world of comedian, writer, slash like thought leader sort of in this spiritual space. Like I think of Rainn Wilson like this with his new book Soul Boom.

1:12:00I love Rainn. He just came back on the show. He's great. or and and and our mutual friend rob bell or you know elizabeth gilbert um you do these shows at largo i think the last time i saw you actually was at largo that was like that annika harris consciousness yeah night yeah that's right you do like all these these things that that don't really fit into the typical kind of stand-up yeah persona yeah that are truly unique to you Yeah. And that's the most rewarding, interesting, fertile part of my life. Yeah, you've done these videos that you've, I don't know how long ago, the Big Think videos.

1:12:40And I was like, you're like a TED fellow. You get on camera and you're just like imparting wisdom. Yeah. Well, a lot of that, thank you for, first of all, I'm just so touched, honestly, that you just know everything. So cool. Well-researched in everything you are and that you care. It's cool. I do care. It's really cool. But yeah, it took like some getting... I was just thinking about this. I had a joke where I just wanted to say I love Jesus. It's just his fans that I'm not crazy about or whatever, right? And I remember I'm in Union Hall in Brooklyn, probably like 26. Probably still married first time.

1:13:22And, you know, it's a hip show. Eugene Merman, probably Hannibal Buress. And I, I tried to say, I like, couldn't even look at the crowd. I was like, I love Jesus. I couldn't say I love Jesus to these hipsters, even though looking back, who fucking cares? You know what I mean? Like, but I'm thinking again, that the sky is going to fall if I start telling these people that I'm spiritually curious. When now my perspective as a 44-year-old is I'm like, Pete, 99 % of that room was raised in some tradition and would love to not only hear you talk about it, but would also probably privately love to hear you save some part of it for them.

1:14:00Right, because they're all walking around Brooklyn, sphincters, you know, tight. That's right. Feeling like they can't be honest about what they're conflicted about or the way they were brought up. Saving baby Jesus from the bathroom. And you can bring voice to that. Yeah, exactly. But so again, just like with the podcast, It started slowly. It's just like, can I talk about this? Is this okay? And finding people that were more far out, like Ram Dass, who comes from more of a Hindu tradition. That was sort of my way back in the mix. Okay, we have a different avatar. It's Hanuman, you know, and very similar to Jesus.

1:14:35And then slowly finding Richard Rohr, the Franciscan, who's like my spiritual father, started kind of making me comfortable. And Rob, of course, Rob Bell, making me more comfortable using Christian language again, just purely for a psychological benefit. It's so nice to go back into the marred woods that you escaped and go like, was there anything? Was there anything in here? I want to look at it fresh now for me. no one's telling me is there anything here and finding and carving that way out had a lot to do with being friends with rob seeing somebody who could we did a tour together where we spoke together on stage and yeah his his new book just came out where'd you park your spaceship yeah yeah it's great yeah you guys did like a largo thing recently yeah we did yeah so you know rob is one of those people that modeling is just so important.

1:15:34He modeled to me, moving to Ojai had something to do with him too. We moved and then he moved, but like he used to live in Laguna, Laguna Beach. And I went down there and I was like, what? Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Yeah. But I was also just kind of like, there's that, but it's also like beautiful. And I was like, I didn't know you could even try to live in a beautiful place, you know? And he did. And I didn't know you could talk about God in an honest way where you're kind of like, yeah, I don't, I don't know what's going on, but like, what about this? Does this resonate? Does this resonate?

1:16:02Or I don't have a masters of divinity, but I'm welcome to the conversation because I'm stuck in the same predicament you are. Those green lights, you start having them modeled to you and then the more you learn, like it comes out in my standup as well, bits about the meaning of life. And I don't know why more comedians are stepping away from the exclusively jaded like get real like stance and getting a little bit more thoughtful, a little bit more curious about it because it's the most interesting topic. Because cynicism and irony works and it has worked for a long time. So it's reliable. Yeah.

1:16:44It's riskier. Yeah. To step outside. Well, you know, the God bit in the special, did you get that far? Yeah. Yeah. I'm just to write a joke about God in the special that people enjoy, that I felt comfortable doing at the Irvine Improv or the fucking wherever. Those are always the moments for me where my hair kind of stands up on the back of my neck and I'm dropped into the present and we're actually connecting about like what's going on here instead of just kind of being like taking life as a foregone conclusion. Yeah. Yeah. Back to that idea of the absurdity of it all. The afterlife versus the miracle of life now and realizing that, you know, it's all fucking insane.

1:17:36Right? I think is really at the very heart of what's best about what you have to offer like reminding us of the lunacy that we're spinning on this rock out in vast darkness the core of it is most of the time when I'm talking about this stuff is I'm trying to get us all in the same boat I don't care if you call it God or nothing we're talking about a mystery something erupted into the universe and, you know, I want you to stress less. Yeah. And just notice what's going on and sort of surrender to the unknowing. Like the big think thing that I did, I think it's Pema Chodron said, you're the sky, the rest is just weather.

1:18:24And that's not just like a cute little magnet for your fridge. That's when you're overwhelmed and like shaking with anger or crippled in grief. Like that's the type of thought that you can step back, allow what's happening to happen. But it's not just a thought experiment. It's like trying to get in touch with the part of you that's witnessing it, you know? And that to me is what spirituality is. Everything that I am keeps changing, but spirituality is interested in what doesn't change, what is constant. Yeah, I mean, it's also this permission that you give or this encouragement for us to nurture that part of us that needs to and wants to engage with awe and wonder, right?

1:19:14You also said in one of the big think pieces, you were talking about Joseph Campbell and you were talking about religious literalism. And you said that something like literal truth is the lowest form of truth, right? And I think that's, yeah, Yeah. It's such a beautiful statement. Yeah. But talk a little bit more about what you meant by that. Well, it's funny. I tell my daughter stories. I haven't said this before, but I've been telling her stories. And my daughter always wants to know if they're real. Like I told her a story about going in the ocean and, you know, iridescent fish gave me a necklace with a shell on it so I could breathe underwater so I could find the treasure.

1:19:56And I was with my brother and then I hurt myself. So we had to drop the treasure so he could take me to the shore. and then the fish came back and gave my brother the treasure even though we had lost it. So it's a pretty basic morality tale. Or, you know, you could look at it a lot of different ways. But at the end, the next day, she's like, Disney, hire this man. She goes, I want one of those necklaces. And boy, if she's not disappointed when I'm like, that's made, that was a story. She's mad. So we've started already trying to prime her to this idea that there are some truths so big they can only be told with lies.

1:20:34That's a cute way of saying metaphor is the only language we have to speak of God. And I say this in the specialist Richard Rohr as well. Metaphor means always true, sometimes really happened. Because what's interesting about the Bible, one of the weird things about that text, is that it's metaphor overlain with history. You know what I mean? It's like metaphorized history. And we don't know where the line is. You know, opinions vary. But when you're trying to, and if you've taken psychedelics, and that was a huge part of my appreciation of metaphor, but when you're trying to talk about the ineffable, metaphor isn't just as close as you can get.

1:21:16It's the only way to do it. It stirs you and moves you in a way that it's, the truth of it is it's true in the way that energy moves in the world. It's true in the way the patterns of the universe are reflected in the story. Because you can tell a story and it's bullshit like you know, but the metaphors and the myths that stick with us, they'll rock you. I just listened to one called The Toebone and the Tooth. It's about this guy. They're all about a guy, sort of underprivileged guy in a village, goes into the woods, falls in love with a goddess. His father doesn't want them to get married. He has to go through these.

1:21:53It's very Genesis. He has to go through these trials. Then he has to bring her back to the village. He forgets that she's in the woods. She dies. She decomposes. Then he has to go back, and all he can find of her is a toe bone and a tooth. That is not, if you're interested in that story, you should look it up. But, like, we know that. We go, like, oh, my God. We know the beloved is the eternal. And we tried our best to remember, but we left her in the woods, and all we have are these remnants. And you hear it, and your skin's lit on fire. And we're fucking stuck with numbers and measurements and recipes.

1:22:29Like, get the fuck out of here. None of that shit helps you when your heart is broken. None of that helps when your grandfather is dying or when a baby is born. Like, poetry is similar. Get that shit out of here until your wife leaves you. Then William Blake gets a lot more important. But we've become interested in or fascinated or obsessed with the quantifiable and the reproducible and the material. And it's like, okay, but, you know, we're leaving a lot in our rear view that's essential. Yeah. You know, it's so emasculated in our culture. Well, because you can't have sex with it and you can't sell it, really.

1:23:15You know what I mean? So, like, what are you doing? I'll tell you what you're doing is you're feeling more at home in the universe. This is my whole thing. The fact that it's like cowardly to go to therapy, like the people where I'm from. If you say you're in therapy, they're like, it's like, oh. I'm like, is there anything more cowardly than not facing your demons? Like, who's the coward? I might just be sitting on a couch, but I'm going into the cave where the Vader mask cuts open and it's my face. Like, that's the hero. And it's easy to do the same with spirituality. Be like, it's a bunch of lies.

1:23:53Yeah, Santa Claus isn't real. Great. But what is the story of Santa Claus? What is the point? What is done in secret is rewarded, or whatever it might be. I don't know, man. Literalism is a fucking terrible body to snuggle up to in your bed at night. and the warm bosom of myth has kept human beings alive. And by the way, don't get me started. Every video game, every movie, it's all right there. Every Avenger, get the fuck out of here. And Joseph Campbell is like the gateway drug for a lot of people, especially in this town. That's right. Well, he changed my life. He said, God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcends all categories of human thought, including being and non-being.

1:24:44So that I could get on board with. That's a God, I feel like that's a God anyone could agree on. It's a metaphor, meaning God is not an old man in the sky. An old man in the sky is a metaphor for a metaphor. God itself is a metaphor. And a metaphor for that metaphor is an old man in the sky. Old, he's older than you. He's been around. In the sky, he has a higher perspective than you. On a throne, he's powerful. These are just ways of understanding a force, right? But that's a metaphor for God, which is itself a metaphor for a mystery. Something unknown is doing something we know not what. So this is also in my special.

1:25:17Barry Taylor, the road manager for ACDC, says, God is the name of the blanket. We put over the mystery to give it a shape. God is the name of the blanket. We put over the mystery to give it a shape. And I say, shouldn't we have learned this in church? Why am I learning this from the road manager for ACDC? And it's not about solving the mystery. It's about appreciating the fact that it is a mystery. And we want to talk about it. And more than that, we want to commune with it. And to know that, we have to give it some sort of symbol. Carl Jung says we're not transformed by ideas. We're transformed by symbols.

1:25:49This is why the crucified Christ is still a hot thing. Yes. We know this. This is why I'm telling my daughter about the treasure and the iridescent fish. So when somebody says to you, as I'm sure they probably do often, like, Pete, explain to me your your notion of spirituality? Or how do you define your relationship with the divine? Like, how do you answer that question? Well, in this context, I would say mystical, whatever, mystical Christianity, mystical spirituality. Mystical is just a fancy way of saying experiential. So a lot of these things had to do with psychedelics. That really opened the box for me.

1:26:30but I'm happy to say that there's spirituality beyond psychedelics. That's still part of my life, but there are a lot of non-chemically induced moments of transcendence that come from quiet, that come from solitude, that come from contemplation, whatever it might be. And for me as a heady person, it comes from reading or listening to talks or whatever. It can drop anchor into the moment. Listening to Eckhart Tolle, if anyone listening, if you don't want any religious language, but you want to know what I'm talking about, The Power of Now, read by Eckhart Tolle, the book. Just listen to that. I listen to it two, three times a year.

1:27:04It's incredible. And when you're listening to it, you'll feel your skin. You'll feel the air resting on your skin. You'll feel reality. Rupert Spira is another one. Go on YouTube and type in Rupert Spira. It's all free. That dude will make you feel like you're on mushrooms, and you don't have to go to the park and meet a guy named Skis. Except you did, right? Right. Which is curious because you're already so spiritually inclined, so spiritually curious. So what was it about doing psychedelics that unlocked something or opened up a new portal for you? Well, I wasn't. The time that I took mushrooms at Bonnaroo, somebody told me, it's in my book, but Reggie Watts and Amy Schumer and these comics were like, we had a day off.

1:27:53and they were like, you should, Kurt Braunohler. They were like, let's, we should buy some mushrooms and do them because we're at Bonnaroo. And I think it was Amy said like, it's like weed. It's like a strong weed. And I was like, I took it. I was like, this is not, this is not a strong weed. But I'm so glad that she said that. Didn't over-explain it, didn't oversell it. But at that time in my life, I think I was pretty much just not thinking about it, about spirituality too much. All my friends were atheists. I saw how beautiful that could be. They had morality. They felt at home in the world.

1:28:28They weren't like debaucherous, evil people. They were beautiful people. So I was like, okay, maybe I'm an atheist. I took mushrooms, a pretty mild dose. I split a dose with my girlfriend at the time. But what it was, was the ineffability. I couldn't talk about it. So I remember very profoundly, I didn't have like a Jesus experience or a God experience. I felt very happy, very alive, and things were very visual. And, you know, you have that, like, at-oneness feeling with the universe, which is so silly to say that, like, it's no big deal. That's, like, the biggest deal in the world. You feel, like, at one with everything, and everything is breathing, and you're that thing, and it's incredible.

1:29:07But the point is, when I was sort of peeking, what was left of Pete went, I'm going to have to talk about this and ruin it. Like, I'm going to come back. And my girlfriend's going to say, how was that? And I'm going to say what I just said, breathing at one, all this fucking noise. Like, what is that? It's not the experience. And then I was like, oh my God, that's the whole thing. the experience of God, however you come about it, or the story of Christ or the story of Buddha or the story of Muhammad, whatever it is, the words aren't it, but there is a thing. And everyone said this a million times.

1:29:49They're the finger pointing to the moon. That's as good as you can do. And that's, those were my words trying to talk about. So I came back like a chimp being like, and that wasn't it and it's laughable but that made me go that made me get curious about what metaphor is if we can't talk about it literally how can we talk about it and then you get things like joseph campbell i watched the the power of myth on pbs like everybody about the dvds tore through it and i was like oh you know and remember an analogy is the man ran like a deer A metaphor is the man was a deer. So it's not just, a metaphor isn't just like a comparison.

1:30:35It's big. It's written in big graffiti markers and it has the power to kind of transport you, not kind of, to transport you to that place. And that one experience was enough. Well, that was a pretty mild experience. Since then, I wouldn't say I'm a huge psychedelic person And for my taste, I've seen some people overdo it. That's just my personal judgment. Just flat out, that's just a judgment. I'm over here going like, take it easy. Because they are fun. But they're not escapist experiences. They're the opposite of escapism. They're confrontist experiences. But I've done a lot of different things.

1:31:21And I'm very glad that I've done a lot of different. I've done, I did five MEO DMT, which is, yeah, which is the big one. Yeah. But, and short, short acting too, right? It's about 15 minutes, but I mean, what is 15 minutes when your time vanishes? You know, the first thing I said when I came back, I think was how long, how long was I gone? Cause you don't go. Pete doesn't go. I I'm the, I'm sort of unqualified to talk about it. But I had this very profound death. And it's what I wanted. Everybody in my group got what their intention was. It was very freaky. You did it in a structured group setting.

1:32:04Very intentional and spiritual with a guide who I absolutely love and stayed in touch with. But like mine was, I want to hang out with myself, capitalist self. Like I want to just be my pure being, not Pete, not my story. I don't want to talk about my family. I don't want to talk about anything. I just want to be reduced into being, into isness. And that's exactly what happened. And it was absolutely incredible. The best I can do to describe it, it's not visual, but like, but it also sort of is, it's, it doesn't make any sense. It felt like, and this is good news that I can share with you, even if you never do it, you don't go anywhere.

1:32:53And I'll even be so bold as to say, when you die, you don't go anywhere. In fact, you can't go anywhere. The whole thing is here. So instead of shooting off into space, It's actually more like everything that isn't just you goes away and you're left at home, would be how I put it. In the most familiar and safe place and everything else falls away. And you go, heaven is a decent metaphor. What is heaven? The clouds and all your family is there. Um, sure. Everything is there. And nothing is there. But explain that to a child. You die, you go to a place where, you know, there's grandma and grandpa.

1:33:42Sure. Also, everything alive is there. Everything that died is there. Everything that will be alive is there. And you just go, I'm home. I felt like a lobster and the meat was taken out in one piece and it left behind the shell and since that day like lobsters I've never gotten a tattoo but if I did I'd get a lobster right here because it was this profound like this is not I am not a body I am free I am still as God created me sort of thing and it was fucking dope but it was experiential because if you said this to me I'd be like Yeah, I mean, you're pointing at the moon right now. Exactly. Because I've never had any of these experiences.

1:34:23And by the way, I don't recommend them. I'm not saying this for legal reasons. And I'm not saying I'm going to either. Like, I have lots of reasons why, you know, I probably shouldn't. Or maybe I should. I don't know. Like, I reserve judgment on that. But I'm certainly not recommending it. Please understand. I'm not advising anybody to do this. But the point I'm trying to make is the point that you're making earlier, which is the only way, like, as somebody who hasn't had these experiences, hearing you try to describe it and me trying to understand what you're saying is barely, I assume, scratching the surface of what you're actually trying to communicate with me.

1:35:02Because words are not an adequate vehicle for doing that. And you could say, like, a very rational— And that's where metaphor and myth and all of that become better ways of trying to get somebody to understand what you're trying to say, right? The lobster thing came like four days after the experience. So are you the shell or you're the lobster taken out of the shell? I'm the meat. I'm the meat. You're leaving the shell behind. So the tattoo should actually be the meat. I don't know what the lobster looks like when you take the shell away. My favorite. That would be a unique tattoo to get. If you ever want to get me a gift, get me a little lobster because I love remembering it.

1:35:37Again, look, this stuff seems to be part, and I'm an addict too. I don't drink anymore. And so I can't say no two addicts are the same. This fits in with me. The one that I did most recently that was the most lucid, because as I'm explaining this to you, from a very rational place, if I can't remember it or describe it really, what's the point? right so you you're sort of left with this like you know yeah and i'm trying to hold on to it so from a very rational point of view then why do it then i did ketamine um again in a spiritual setting with a guide and it was incredibly lucid i found that to be much more hold on to a bull so you don't leave the planet you're in your body but you had this very visceral whenever I do a psychedelic or anything spiritual happens to me I always think of my mother and I love my mom very much and I go I want to give this to my I got to show my mom this but the beautiful thing was the ketamine was like or the experience was there's so much less to do than you think And that was the good news that I had, meaning I don't even have to tell you to do it or even infect you with the idea.

1:37:03Meaning like it's all not only will it be OK, it's already OK, because the it that is OK is outside of this timeline. And that's actually, if this makes any sense, where we are right now. And in a quantum sense, there is no past or future. That's kind of what I'm saying. Like it's our relationship with time that causes our suffering. Yeah. And when you're done with it, you can drop it. And that thing, I just, I remember tears were streaming down my face and this is very non-dual, but, you know, hopefully people enjoyed it. I was like, I got to tell my mom about this. And it was like, you're doing this.

1:37:44Like, it's all one thing and you're doing it for everyone. Like, there is no Pete that did it and my mom who didn't. It's one thing arcing towards knowing itself. And when it knows itself, the whole thing wakes up. It's a booby trap, a loving booby trap. Conversations like this between us lead, you know, all synchronicities going all the way. And when you're ready, it wakes up. The whole thing wakes up. Not the Buddha wakes up, the Christ wakes up. This whole thing wakes up. Just like you woke up from your dream and everybody was gone. And it's okay. None of the mind. It's okay. That's the end of the world.

1:38:24I'm operating at like 10 % of understanding what you just said. It's okay. Just listen to it again on half speed and maybe do some ketamine. I'm just kidding. Don't do ketamine. Yeah. Your podcast is called You Made It Weird. I think you're making it weird. I am making it weird. In a good way. No, I know. This is it. Dude, I'm hearing myself too, and I'm like, it is laughable. But if I told you a story like my brother dropping the treasure and the fish bringing the treasure, what is the point of that story? It's like, in the end, it's okay. It's like, it's the prodigal son. All you need, in my opinion, is the Garden of Eden for our beginning and then the prodigal son.

1:39:09And the story of the prodigal son, everyone knows, but it's worth repeating. You're the son. You got your inheritance, life. This is our inheritance. We did the beautiful thing. It's very similar to the Garden of Eden. We left. We ate the apple. We left. And that's okay. Remember, the father's not mad that the son left. all that guilt and fear and shame and God, oh, get off my lawn, fucking bullshit, ego bullshit. You left, you were free to leave. You went into the world. It does say, I believe you squandered your inheritance, which is what we're doing. We're just squandering. We're eating nachos and whatever the fuck we're doing.

1:39:46It's okay. We ran out of money. We ended up working with the pigs as good Jewish boys in the story. Terrible, it's like the lowest of the low. And then we remembered, that's key. we remembered, wait, my father is a king. I can go home. It wasn't bad boy runs away. It was boy runs away to play, to dance, to spend his inheritance. It's his inheritance. Go do it. Then when things got rough, I remember maybe my father will make me a servant in his kingdom, goes home. God's not mad. Dad's not mad. Slaughters the fattened calf, gives him new sandals, anoints him in oil, gives him new robes, celebrates that he came home.

1:40:28That's the whole fucking thing. And that was Jesus's closer. You know what I mean? That was his big finish to the Sermon on the Mount. It's the big one. That's all you need. I'm very firm on that. Fuck my ketamine story and my 5-MeO story. Who cares? The whole thing is, your father loves you. You can go home. And that remembrance is often triggered by those painful episodes in our life, right? That's it. That is the conduit to find your way back home. Full circle. You don't go home until you're with the pigs. Eckhart Tolle woke up when he said, I can't live with myself any longer. He was going to kill himself.

1:41:10And he went, there's an I and a self? What is this? I can't live with myself any longer? Who's who? and he dropped the ego and he got into his self, capital S, self. That's all you really need. The other one that I love, Ama, the hugging saint, told this story when I saw her in New York. She's incredible. There was a doctor. I've been hugged by her. Isn't that great? We named our dog Ama. Beautiful. I really had like a - She's so huggable. I had a real moment when I hugged her. It was great. Maybe she told the story when you saw her. No, I don't think so. There was a doctor and he was dealing with terminally ill people.

1:41:45and he brought his dog to work. And of course he couldn't bring the dog into the exam room. So he closed the door and he was administering, you know, help to this dying person. And the dying person was like worried about dying. And all the while the dog is scratching on the door. And she said, can you comfort me? Because I'm dying. He said, well, I think it's a little bit like my dog. I've never brought my dog to work. My dog doesn't know what's in this room. It's all unknown. It's all frightening and strange, but she still wants to come in because she knows her master's in here. And I was like, that's it.

1:42:21We don't know what the fuck is going on here, but whether or not you trust it is key. Whether or not you see it as your father going home, whether or not you see yourself as God's child, these are the comforts of story. That in the midst of this madness and this unknowingness, if you can have a core of like, Richard Rohr said the point of life is to accept that you are accepted. It's written on my mirror in chalk marker. Accept that you are accepted. And there's another line from A Course in Miracles on my mirror that says, who could be disappointed who asks for what he has already? It's fucking great.

1:42:55It's fucking great. It's beautiful. But how do you, like, I'm thinking of the person who's listening to this who hasn't had their reckoning yet. They haven't hit their pain moment. And they're trying to wrap their heads around what you mean by this notion of remembering or returning home. Like, how do you communicate to that person? Or how do you get somebody to, you know, connect with that possibility in their own life? That's why I'm not putting that question off to Eckhart Tolle. But when people email me, you know, on social or something, and they're like, I can't, it's nails on a chalkboard.

1:43:33You say, I'm God's child, it's nails on a chalkboard or Jesus or Buddha or anything. Because of the baggage that people are carrying around from whatever experiences they had, yeah. I relate to that. I had that. And people like, first of all, Joseph Campbell, who's just going to say it's a story and that's great. But then Eckhart Tolle, who's all just the sacrament of the present moment. And when you start getting naked, I was just talking about this today on my own podcast. I was like, why are Adam and Eve naked? It's because they're not clothed in the ego and the story. just pure and when you drop through practices through reading that book whatever it might be and you start getting familiar with who are you like you're you're wearing a space suit you know right and we start thinking we're the suit this is ramdas ramdas would say i go hello rich and you go hello pete you're a comedian i go yes and we are americans i remember i was in In Italy, I saw a ladybug and I was like, this ladybug has no idea it's Italian.

1:44:36Has no idea it's Italian. How many fucking things are we carrying around? And who are you when you drop them? And which of those things are undroppable? I don't think there are any that are undroppable. And Ramana Maharshi has this great thing where he goes, when you're stoking the fire of your own awareness, the last thing you get the fire going, the last thing you throw in is the stick you were stoking the fire with. You can even drop your practice. All of it can go. Because your zero, your smallest, most irreducible, undividable you, that's the part that knows this. Whether or not you vibe with this language, but there's a part of you.

1:45:17And I would also recommend Rupert Spiro. If you read Being Aware of Being Aware, which is a very short book and every chapter says the same thing. You can just read the first chapter. I know Richard Rohr, but I haven't read that book. Rupert is a beautiful non-dual teacher, but he will just go like, what is it that's aware of your experience? And he's like, nobody's asking that. He says we're like the screen of a movie, and everybody gets so caught up in the content of the movie, just like we do when we watch a movie, that you forget you're looking at a screen. But you're the screen. It's not colored or changed in any meaningful way by the light that's on it.

1:46:01Right now, I'm so, oh, I'm on a podcast. I'm a screen. What is the screen? What distance is an illusion? Like, this sound is farther than this. It's all happening on the screen of my awareness. And the additional delusion to that is that it's all happening in our head. Right. But that is also just an appearance in consciousness. That's what I, so science, I'm a pro science. science person. Obviously, I hope I don't have to say that, but science will say, I saw a TED Talk where they're like, reality is a agreed upon group hallucination. And that's really right on with a lot of mystical traditions.

1:46:40This is Maya or this is play or whatever you want to say. But they'll say it originates in the brain. So that's like you and I are having a dream and I hold up a ring box And I go, this dream is coming from this box. Like, why would a part of the dream be a reliable source of the dream? What the fuck do we know about the mind? You know what I'm saying? So we're going, it originates in the amygdala of the blah, blah, blah. That's also, you can't remove the observer. It's influencing and part of and drenched in the observed. You are the observed. Right. The idea that there is a self that is observing.

1:47:20Right. is a further illusion. Right. And that that self resides somewhere inside your head. Right. And that's hard. Like it takes practice to disabuse yourself because it's so entrenched in our deep-rooted attachment to what is real. And just in the way that you learned it, I watched my daughter learn it. Pinching, I feel that, I don't feel that. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Watched her learn it. Right. And this idea that you're sitting over there and I'm over here, these things are just appearances in consciousness. Yeah. That's right. So I don't mean to put the question off, but when people say, I don't know where to start, The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, especially him reading it, is a really great place to start because everybody, without any practice, can listen to someone talking about the quality of the present moment.

1:48:16and you start to, what happens? You start to disappear. So the things that are in the way, I am a person, I am an American, I am a man, I am a comedian, all this stuff. When that goes away and you get really quiet and yet you're still there, that beingness is a pointer to God. I always say that when Moses met God in the Old Testament, he said, I am that I am, or I am, I am. And I always thought God was being kind of cheeky. He's like, I am, forget about it. You don't need to know who I am. He's saying, I am, when you consider this 5 ,000 years ago, I am M-ness. I am being-ness. And that's not something you need to take from me.

1:48:58You can drop, spelunk into yourself, close your eyes, follow your breath, and try to experience what it feels like to just be a zzz, like a little, be the screen. Yeah. And then when you see that, okay, so here's another one. Mooji, M-O-O-J-I. He has a meditation called The Invitation to Freedom. It's on iTunes. I believe there's two versions. Just get the cheaper one because they're the same. This dum-dum bought both. But he goes, he leads you through this meditation where he goes, come in this room. He's like, but before you come in, leave your shoes outside. I'm not going to do it justice. And he goes, also leave your mind outside.

1:49:42Leave your past. Leave any fears of your future, leave your identity. Just come in as zero. And then when you do that, and there's music and there's breathing, it takes you through it. He goes like, let's look at this. Let's look at what you as zero is. And he goes, is there a boundary that you can find? Is there a point where you hit where on the other side of it, it is not? And you just do it. Like, don't take my word for it. Just go like, okay, where does this end? this infinite spaciousness that I experience so much. It's a what the hell is water moment. I experience the eternal and the infinite so much that I don't even recognize it anymore.

1:50:24So get curious, look for it. What does that practice look like for you on a daily basis? Like how do you stay so connected to that? Honestly, I love talking about it with you. I told you when I came in, I was having all these emails and losing my mind, getting stressed. So there's always a fresh humbling. It's like veganism. It's like, you know, the stuff and then you lose it. That's, that's extra annoying. You're like, it was easier when I didn't even know it. So there's always going to be moments where you forget. But I take comfort in the fact that there are people like Eckhart, like Muji, like Rupert, like Christ, like whoever, take your pick.

1:51:06that in the same way that my daughter learned I am separate, these people by rote, verily, verily, the word of God, finally reversed the flow of the river and now they're like, I don't think that way anymore. And then when they are stressed or they're angry, it might happen, but they don't identify with it. Whereas I do. Right. But what you're saying is you have like a mindfulness practice where you're bringing this into your, you're trying to like bring it into your everyday experience and reminding yourself throughout the day when you lose yourself in emails or whatever, because life is the way that it is.

1:51:44Right. It's like this, this reflex to. It's the pain becomes the reminder, like, like sobriety. It's like, I lose myself. I'm shaking with anger or whatever it might be. That just happened. My dad upset me. It was over that thing that I told you about. He made me feel bad about my body. So we were talking about that. I got mad. But, you know, a very practical one is RAIN, recognize, allow, investigate, and nurture. Have you heard that? Probably at some point. It's the way this goes. Yeah. But when I'm really stuck in myself, you don't judge it. There's nothing gained in going, like, I thought I was a spiritual person, and I just call that guy a piece of shit or whatever.

1:52:30I'm meditating. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Recognize, oh, I'm very angry, except if I feel this way the rest of my life, it's okay. Your brain has no idea what to do with that. Your pain has no idea. A big practice, a mantra of mine is yes, thank you. Something goes terrible, the flight is canceled, whatever. Yes, yes, thank you. It has no idea what to do with that. It just... When you remove the resistance. Short circuits it. Yeah, because it's the resistance and the attachment that creates the suffering. That's right. And then, you know, I'm going off what I was about to say, but this is more important.

1:53:10Byron Katie is a huge teacher of mine and the work. And if you read Loving What Is, that's a life-changing book. And you can do something called the work. So you're suffering because your flight is delayed. Let's look at the beliefs. this airline doesn't care about me or I'm not safe unless this airline loves me. You know, you can unpack it. Flight should never be delayed. Is that true? No. But people don't stop. Is that true? My dad should not say things that unintentionally hurt my feelings. He does. He did. So why am I pushing up against reality? Well, it's also the idea that we know what's in our best interest or we know the difference between what is good and bad for us.

1:53:57Let's do it. So my dad doesn't understand me. Is that true? Do you know another person's interior reality? Do you know what their intention are or what they feel? Do you even know what you feel? Like it's so much more amorphous, but we walk around going like, I have been slighted. I've been attacked. So the work is huge. I've been doing it every morning since I had that little. So you just walk through that process? What does that look like? My father doesn't understand me. Let's take that one. Is it true is the first one. And let's say you're really angry. You go, yeah, it's true. He doesn't understand me.

1:54:36The second one is, can you be absolutely certain that that's true? I love it. It just makes me smile. Can you be absolutely certain that your dad doesn't understand you? And you're like, no, no. You have to find a real no. And maybe even say yes. You get to keep going either way. But usually, I've been doing it long enough that when I get the thought out and the way you get to those thoughts, journal like you're five years old. Dad's going to kill me. Dad's going to eat me. I'm not safe if my parents aren't happy, was one that I just did. The next one is, how do you feel when you believe it? My dad doesn't understand why.

1:55:16I feel alone. I feel isolated. I feel sad. I feel depressed. I feel angry. I feel cold. I feel ashamed. All of those are true. But you feel justified in that emotion. Yeah. And I feel self-righteous. Yeah, exactly. Self-righteous. That's good. I don't normally do the positive ones, but yeah, feel self-righteous. Like it is doing something for you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's scapegoating as well. And then the next one is, how would you feel if you didn't believe the thought? And you go, if I didn't believe that my dad doesn't understand me, I'd go, I'd feel spacious. I'd feel free. I'd feel happy. I'd be light.

1:55:58I'd be clear. I'd be whatever. All those words pretty much be the same. And also maybe uncomfortable because you no longer have a handy antagonist. Yeah, humble. To channel your weird emotions. That's right. Yes. Then the next step is you do the turnaround. My dad does understand me. And you come up with three examples of how that's true. And you go, this guy raised me. He's been watching me closely. You know, you go, he knows this, this, and this, and this, and this. You start getting, you list those things. And then you go, I don't understand my father. How is that true? Oh, you know, I'm not really making that much effort to understand him.

1:56:40I'm really just kind of painting him how I see fit, how I get angry or whatever. And then, so you do the turnaround. And I think that's the last step. It's really, really powerful. When you start writing down your suffering thoughts, the first step is actually the most powerful. When I told you I did the work on, I am not safe unless my parents are happy, or my father cannot connect and engage. You start getting real and going like, my father cannot connect and engage in a way that I understand connecting and engaging. He's never going to talk like you and I are talking. Or in the way that you would prefer.

1:57:19Okay. So then my father needs to connect and engage with me in a way that I prefer for me to be safe. Get the fuck out of here. There's a holy laughter in going like, where did I get that? Well, when you were a child, these people literally kept you alive and you're still holding onto that. And you go, how is it not true? Well, I've been safe all this time. That's a pretty big evidence. I'm still alive. I'm fine. There's two people in Boston in their eighties farting into a sofa. And I think they're as if I could know their emotional state. And I think that emotional state hinges on my physical safety.

1:57:59You wouldn't believe what you believe. You wouldn't believe what you believe. And what you believe, you'll take it because the zero of nobodiness is so uncomfortable that you'd rather be angry than happy. the zero of nobody. Wait, explain that. I just mean if I drop my anger and I'm just saying and loving what is, loving and accepting what is, I start to get a little shaky. I don't think I exist. So you ever catch yourself loving that you're late to the airport? Because you're fucking real. God damn it. I have a show tonight in St. Louis. What the fuck? You're so alive. You're the center of the universe.

1:58:40And if you're like a little hermit and you go, flights are delayed. You know, you start to vanish and the ego gets shaky and it would rather you pick a fight. Yeah. Or it's going to grab onto something that asserts that it exists in the world. And those tend to be those trusty opinions that we assemble to construct what we believe is our identity. Because you don't remember that your father is the king. And I know that sounded so Christian, it made my deck go inside my body. But it's like, you don't remember that being is safe. It's trustworthy. That this idea that something made you to judge you, to then torture you, that's the ego's thought system.

1:59:28That's this weird, separate, scared, kill-or-be-killed thing that we've found ourself in. That's not ultimate reality. And the more you taste that, the more you trust it, the more you go, okay, the flight's delayed. What trips you up the most these days? My parents. It's still. Yeah. Isn't that fucked up? When does it end? I know. Like, you moved out. How old were you? I was 22, 21. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't living at home, but I mean, I left Boston when I was 22. So that was another. Parents, and then they're sort of made gelatinous by Boston. Right. Like there's more power there. Yeah, yeah. So.

2:00:14I get that. Yeah, it's crazy. Fucking 57. Yeah. I'm a little sad to hear that you're still. I've come a long way, Pete. Yeah. There's still work there that needs to get done. You know what I mean? And buddy, in this conversation, in this womb-like abyss, I feel safe being like, and that's okay. But when I'm mad at my folks, it takes over completely. You know, I'm doing a joke about it. That's how I process it. I go, every time I've wanted my father to apologize to me for hurting my feelings, I end up apologizing to him for having hurt feelings. that's how it's I've never gotten like a oh really oh I'm sorry and you never will right and you're the one who suffers and the path to freedom is forgiveness and forgiveness comes in the form of that type of contrary action I have a lot to say about forgiveness so A Course in Miracles it's a little advanced I wouldn't ask anybody to start on A Course in Miracles but if you've been on the spiritual path a long time you might want to check it out.

2:01:24But there's a great line. It's like, a jailer is not free. He's bound with his prisoner. That image is just so powerful to me. I'm keeping my parents in jail, like being righteously mad at them. But I'm the fucking idiot jailkeeper that has to live in the prison with them. Like I'm suffering. So forgiveness, intellectual forgiveness sort of isn't really great. Mercy, divine mercy comes from not an intellectual, oh, they did the best they could and consider where they were coming from. And I can let that go. It all worked out. All that shit is nothing. Father Greg Boyle, who's another huge teacher of mine, he's a beautiful man.

2:02:03He said, forgiveness is overrated. Mercy is where it's at. And mercy comes from me recognizing that you and I are actually the same thing. And when you can experience that really deep down, then you can actually forgive because you recognize it's really just our dream. And you're just kind of here so I can learn who I am. And if I want to know that God loves me, I have to practice by loving you. It's not just to be a good person. I give you the forgiveness that I want. I want salvation, so I give it to you. That's kind of the whole thing. And draw that distinction between that action and this notion of mercy, like mercy being a disabusing oneself of the duality, right?

2:02:54Yeah. Mercy is always there. That's the differentiation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the practice of that when you feel impulsed by your father to carry on the example. Well, I can't do it in real time. I have to do it slowly, but that stickiness, that static of trying to unpack it and work with it is the difficult wrestle to get me to a place where I'm like, oh, I forgot again. I forgot again. And the forgiveness comes, is more of the intellectual exercise. And that can be useful too. In fact, with my parents, I don't know if mercy can be hard to come by. It can take three, four, five, six, seven, eight weeks to get to mercy.

2:03:34Forgiveness, Here's a great tip. This is what I do when I'm trying to forgive somebody. Even if it's your mercy hack. This is my forgiveness hack. I don't know if it's quite mercy. But I go, if I were them, I'd be them. And that sounds like the most basic thing in the world. But if, so my dad, or let's pick somebody on the highway. Somebody cuts me off and their bumper sticker's covered in all sorts of politics I don't agree with. And I'm mad at them. And that works in real time. You go, if I were them, I'd be them. Meaning if you had grown up the way they grew up, had all of the life experiences that they had, were raised by the parents that that person had, etc.

2:04:13And had the mourning they were having. You would make every decision exactly the way that they have. We are so much less fixed than we think we are. Meaning if I move to, I never want to say a specific say because I don't want to say it's backwoods or something. But if I moved to like a rural Southern place, would I shift? Like, would I start to kind of, maybe I'd buy a shotgun cause there's bears or something? Yeah, probably something like that. Maybe. I don't know. Just in the same way that a lot of people that are from certain rural areas moved to Manhattan, they get a little, they get a lot more gay friendly.

2:04:49They tend to be when there's 150 ,000 gay people and some of them are your friends, your politics start to change. So who are we? What's going on? Let's go easy on yourself. Like you're changing all the time. Right. The ego hates that, though. The ego wants to believe everything is static and is very attached to this identity that it has crafted. Right. And doesn't want you understanding the illusory nature of that. That's right. It's very threatened by that. And even things like, I'm not a murderer. And then you put me in a post-apocalyptic situation where a guy's coming at me with a baseball bat with knives in it.

2:05:25Suddenly I'm a murderer. You know what I mean? Like, what is it? What's going on? Like, you can take yourself less seriously. But going back to the, if I were them, I'd be them, that does help in real time. I wish my mom would understand this, this, or this. Well, if I was born in that family in Lithuania and left when I was seven, fleeing World War II, and went to school in South Boston, all that stuff. If I were them, I'd be them. And you don't even have to know them. Fucking Trump. Oh, God, what an idiot. If I was him, I'd be him. You know how I know? Because he's him. he's him and if i were in that i'd be doing the exact same thing because i'd be him yeah all the all the good ones are so obvious that they it's like carrying a wet stone from the ocean it dries up by the time you get to the beach but it's frustrating it's annoying that that's the way that it is i know you want to go behind the velvet rope yeah and just go, I get it.

2:06:24It's that, that's the answer again. It's the same answer. Yeah. Well, believe me, man, you go on these psychedelic things, meditation things, and you always end up at the same thing. Like the prodigal son, the punchline of the prodigal son, the father says, you're always with me and everything I have is yours. That's the punchline. And that's always the punchline. And yet our shame gets kicked in. The fact that we poop three times a day or whatever it is, The fact that we're horny and we're mad and we go, there's no way dad's going to accept me back. Over and over and over and over. And that's just how it goes.

2:07:02It's a wave. It's up and down and up and down. Yeah. Well, I think that's a good place to land the plane. It's up and down and it's up and down. It's up and down, baby. Beautiful, man. Wow. That was amazing. I really appreciate it. Yeah, it was really cool. Isn't it funny? You came in at the beginning and you're all like, email. And I was like, is this going to be okay? And then you warmed up to it. I shouldn't have had emails. I hate emails. No, it's funny. Conversations like this are, it's all an excuse to hang out is another sort of mantra of mine. I'm like, I'm so glad that we could do it.

2:07:36Isn't it funny that I'm just like, check out my special on Netflix. I'm like, God is everything. And if you're like freaking out because Pete was coming in hot with the heaviness, don't worry. There's like handjob jokes and all kinds of insanity. So it's a good time, man. Yeah. It's amazing. That's on Netflix? Oh, on the Netflix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, the special isn't really like this. Pete Holmes is not for everyone. It's called I Am Not For Everyone. Yeah. Cool, man. Well, I'd like to continue the conversation, not necessarily in a podcast, man. That was super fun. I appreciate it, man.

2:08:10Yeah. Thanks for having me. Thank you. We'll link everything up in the show notes. Check out the special. Check out You Made It Weird. You've been at it for a long time. I love your show, man. Thanks. Good. Keep doing it. Peace. Right on. Lance.

2:08:26That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

2:09:10Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

2:09:48Portraits by Davy Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste