The Elite Ironman Who Survived a Mid-Race Heart Attack: Tim O'Donnell on Mental Fitness, His Brush with Death & Finding Joy In Training

25:54And they're all kind of, you know, 75, 80s. Yeah, and they're all just churned along at 20 RPM. on recombin' bikes or walking on treadmills. And my coach, Julie Dibbins, came in with me that first day. And like, okay, you can't follow our protocol. It's not gonna work. You guys just have to ramp it up. You gotta get your heart rate up. And we'll monitor, we'll be there watching. I'm gonna crush this test. So we get on the treadmill and I start bumping the treadmill up. It only goes to like eight miles an hour. So I'm like, this isn't gonna work. Yeah, this isn't gonna work. So we ended up having to bring my trainer in and my bike and just doing our own bike sessions in there.

26:31It actually did give me a lot of confidence because I did have the heart rate up and I knew that they were monitoring everything. And if something went wrong, I was at the hospital. So it actually was a big part of my mental recovery too. So it gave you confidence that you could push yourself without any kind of like real danger, physical danger to yourself, which is important because that's what your sport's all about. The analogy that comes to mind is like a professional cyclist who has a bad crash, you know, and they have to descend, you know, just be fearless, you know, in these Alpine descents or whatever.

27:11If you have a bad crash, like you're gonna hold back, right? Just get that little bit of hesitation. Yeah. Or if you have a, you know, suddenly you have a kid and your whole like kind of worldview shifts, it's not just about you, So you're gonna like that, however many percentage points, you're gonna be kind of off what you used to be. How does that impact you when you're, when at the highest level of sport, it is about those tiniest of increments. Yeah, that was a huge challenge. And even getting on the road to get to that point was a huge challenge. It was, I was on blood thinners. I actually had to be on them for a year afterwards.

27:53So, you know, if something happens like on one of those descents or with the car while you're out there riding, it can get a lot worse, especially if it's a brain injury. Yeah, if you crash, you're in big trouble. Yeah, you're in big trouble. So I stayed on the trainer for a while and then I finally started getting outside and I'd been sort of removed. And then you're outside and these big semi trucks are passing you on Highway 36 in Boulder. And you're like, ah, you know, this is, you realize like, wow, this is really kind of dangerous out here. And then you normalize to it again. and you're like, okay, I'm comfortable out here.

28:24And you kind of get back into your routine a little bit. You're also questioning, like the further you are from the information, the real information, the harder it is to, I guess, get ahold of it, right? So like the doctors, the cardiologists, they're very versed and everything. And to them, it's like, no, you're fine. You're okay. We fixed it. It's a mechanical issue. It's been fixed. You're good to go. So, but I don't know that as much as them. This is my first experience being in there. So there's a lot of questioning in your mind, like, okay, well, is it really fixed? Like, am I really good to go?

29:01And then you remove another level, like friends and family who have even less information than me about it. And they are petrified. Yeah, they're like, what are you doing? They're like, you're crazy, you know? Yeah. And you have a graduate degree in engineering, right? There are other things that you could be doing, right? Definitely. We'll get into that. But yeah, relatives, friends, et cetera. But your wife, Rennie, who we haven't even really talked about, but she's an incredible Ironman champ. She won the world championships three times, right? Three times, plus 7.3 world championship. Like unbelievably accomplished Ironman triathlete.

29:42Yeah, she makes me look like a cump. I'm just like trying to like not get embarrassed. We'll get into what that marriage looks like. But, you know, so, you know, where's her head at like in terms of like being supportive, being concerned, cautious?

30:02So, Rini, she's an unbelievable human being and an amazing wife. And it took me a while to really realize the toll it was taking on her. Even at the very beginning when I was at the hospital, we're like, okay, we need to keep this quiet. I don't know what this is gonna look like. Like, you know, there could be implications with partnerships and things like that. So we just need to like figure this out before we tell people. And, but she was at home by herself with two little kids. Yeah. And like, she needs an outlet. And one of her friends was over and she just started bawling. Like she needed to, like she needed that outlet.

30:35And so, you know, that was a little bit of an awakening. Like, okay, yeah, like this is a big impact on Rennie. But it wasn't until, I don't know, even two months later where I was starting to get back to some training. and I was gonna do a treadmill run and she was gonna lay down with our son Finn, get him down for a nap and take a nap with him. And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna run an hour. Well, an hour passes by or whatever. I get sidetracked doing something around the house. I start super late and I get on the treadmill and TV's blasting, music's blasting, I'm running. And she just wakes up from the nap like two hours later, just hearing blasting TV in her mind.

31:13And she's like, Tim's been done running. Exactly, he's been done running an hour ago. So I'm running along and door busts open and Rini just has this look on her face. She didn't know if she was gonna see me lying on the ground dead, right? And she sees me and just goes, there's huge sigh of relief. And that's when it really hit me like, oh my God, this is a massive impact on Rini. The psychological toll on you. I mean, she's going through a lot and she's very stoic. I mean, she's a professional athlete. She's one of the best in the world. She knows how to handle pain and almost internalize it, even if it's to her detriment.

31:55But that really hit me hard about what this has done to her too. Yeah. So how do you work through that? Like, how do you come to some kind of agreement about how you're gonna move forward together? it's tough because she know like she was close enough to know that it was okay but like i said still a little bit further removed that it's kind of scary and even i think honestly just having it okay this is what i'm gonna do for this short period of time right like like letting i got two more years. Because I didn't realize, like even at, we both raced Ironman 70.3 Santa Cruz in September. And she even said out there, she was on the course, like it wasn't until after that race that she started to let go.

32:47She's like, even in the race, I was worrying, where's Tim? Am I gonna see Tim? Making sure I was okay. But after that race, everything seemed to kind of normalize for her. But then in Kona, a month later, my mom's texting Rini. like, how are you watching this? Like, I can't watch. You know, my mom's petrified that I'm gonna drop dead on Iron Man Live coverage. Yeah. And once again, like one step further removed from the doctors and the knowledge that this is okay. But yeah. And my mom didn't tell me that, but she didn't wanna freak me out. But yeah. And even if like, yeah, it's that gap between, like logically understanding like you're safe, the doctors are telling you you're safe.

33:28but it's kind of like when you're on an airplane, you're like, you know, it's a pretty safe way to travel, but you think you're gonna crash at any minute. You know, like that has to, and knowing that all these people who love you are concerned about you is a psychic toll that you're carrying, right? And understanding that it's more than just you with the kids and all these people that care about you and the impact that this is having on them, like the commitment that you have to bring to your sport while also like managing that is like an added, like, you know, kind of mental aspect of the training.

34:05Right. And it's, you hate to say it's as simple as just time, but there is that component of it. Everybody just needs time to heal and kind of have their cathartic moment with all of this. Mm-hmm.

34:26So two things. First of all, like when you're training, do you feel yourself like holding back or do you like, can you match that like max heart rate or, you know, those like watt thresholds? Or do you kind of like, maybe I shouldn't just, you know, I'll hold back that 5%. Honestly, I don't feel like, Rich, that I got to that point where I could really push myself until the Kona build. It took that long. There's other factors too. I almost had a complete year off of training and racing. So I'm dealing with a lack of fitness that I had to rebuild. And at this point, I'm now turning 42. So there's the age component as well.

35:06And no matter how fit you are, as you get older, your max heart rate is gonna start to diminish. So we're kind of dealing with all of that. But I did, I had to do Ironman Des Moines in June to qualify. and that was really tough mentally. I mean - Well, so after the heart attack, how much time did you take off? And then how much time between the heart attack and Des Moines? Because I want to get into that race. Yeah, so pretty much all of 2021, I took maybe four to six weeks off. Actually, the cardiologist in Boulder had me on the treadmill doing a stress test like the next week. He's like, you're good to go.

35:45One week. Yeah, I feel confident, but you need to stay aerobic and you need to manage your training load because you have to let your heart recover. So training load, like hours was minimal. Intensity was almost non-existent for most of that year. And then January of 2022, I kind of went back into that normal training routine. So I had a couple of months before Des Moines to try to get back into Ironman fitness. Almost got there, didn't quite get there. Yeah. in Des Moines, you're first out of the water. You ride 412 on the bike, right? And then you rode a 301 marathon, even though you like blew up in the last 10K.

36:28Yeah, the last probably, yes. I think it was 19 mile, 19 mile just shattered. Like, so this is like a crazy performance. I mean, for anybody, any pro, but to make that like your first Ironman and after what you suffered through, is unbelievable, right? Like that's pretty amazing.

36:54As a pro athlete, you're always hard on yourself, right? Yeah. So you're never happy with the performance, but yeah, I mean, as I look back, yeah, that was pretty impressive to be able to put that together. But as we talked about the mental side of it, was the hardest part. I was in third, All they need to do is get third to qualify for Kona, which was my goal for the year, just to get back to Kona, just to celebrate the sport and what I did to get back to that point. And I had like a 14 minute lead on fourth place and I'm walking and I'm like, I should just drop out. Like these negative thoughts are coming in my head.

37:30I don't, do I even need to do this? Like I can, my family's right over there. We can just go hang out and chill. And I actually saw Kenny who was filming there and I ran by him, he's like, everybody's struggling right now, Tio. Everybody's struggling right now. Just keep, just hold it together. And I just broke it down to the most basic. Okay, I'm not gonna worry about the guy that's 14 minutes back. I'm not gonna worry about qualifying for Kona. Let's just run, start jogging from aid station to aid station and let's at least just finish this race. And if this is my last Ironman, okay. You know, but let's get to the finish line.

38:04Yeah. And at least get an Ironman finish under my belt. And once I did that and I started to, I didn't come back to life, but I was able to hold it together enough to stand the podium and get that Kona spot. Is that a perspective shift from the pre-Widowmaker Timothy? Like in the year prior to the Widowmaker, would that have been your mindset in a race like that if you were struggling in the last six miles? You know, I don't know. I definitely had those moments before where you have to button it up a little bit. Right. But the kind of lingering like, hey, is this worth it? Like I could just be with my kids.

38:46Yeah, actually I had that Ironman bowler in 19. Oh, you did? Yeah. And then maybe that's a product of also being in the sport for so long, right? Because it's hard. I mean, I started racing Kona in 2011. I hadn't missed a year. Right. And like that, you know, you look at the, a lot of the guys, you know, have an injury or something that gives them a break and it's, oh, everybody always comes back better. It's like, we just need a little bit more time off. So yeah, I think part of it just time in the sport and it was exacerbated though 100 % by the heart attack. Sure. Because it came in, it crept in quicker and it hit harder because there was also the doubt like that this is even something you should be doing.

39:32Right. but you make your, you get your slot to go to Kona and going into that race is your, like having gotten second the last time you raced it, the obvious thing would be like, well, now I need to go back and win it, right? But having had, you know, the heart attack, my sense is, and also from kind of like watching your vlog in the wake of that race was, like, I just wanna be proud of my race. Like I wanna, I'm proud that I qualified and I get to go do this. and have this experience. So that feels like a kind of a new approach or sensibility, like that is very much tied to the experience of surviving something potentially fatal.

40:15It was, and it was hard to understand that even leading into the race. And it wasn't until I was out there on the run that I really had that moment. And it was a decision, I came off the bike, I was still, I think I was fifth or sixth at that point running down a Leahy. I was very much in that race. But I kind of got out mile eight or nine and I was on the Queen K. And I was at that point where I didn't feel great. I wasn't as fit as I probably needed to be to run well off of the ride I had just put together. And I know I've been there before, right? That you can, things can go really wrong out here.

40:57So I was definitely holding back there because I wanted, I made the decision that this is, this isn't about trying to go for top 10. I've been, I wasn't gonna run onto the podium at that point. I've been in the top 10 plenty of times. This was about me coming back and the support of everybody around me to get me to this point. Not only my family, coaches, teammates, but the whole triathlon community. I mean, the support I've had was unbelievable. So I really wanted that moment to be something that I enjoyed and that we could all enjoy together. And it made running down that finish line, even though it wasn't my best finish, probably my best moment in triathlon.

41:39But you had a great race. I had a pretty good race. You performed quite well and you were, what were you, 13th, I think? 13th, yeah. 13th, yeah. But on another year, you would have been like, I don't know, fifth or fourth or something like that. I mean, it was just an unbelievable year. I mean, yeah, 802 on any other year would be - Yeah. Yeah, it would be right there, yeah. That was what was so weird about this year. Like there were so many veteran pros who were actually having really good races who were just non-factors. And I watched the whole like live stream and they were like Lionel and like barely mentioned because they were so far behind the tip of the spear.

42:19Even like Cam Wirth, who's coming in here in a couple of days. I can't wait to talk to him as well. You know, bike course record holder, who you would think if you're watching the lot, following the race, like, oh, he's way off his game. He's like not even anywhere near the front. He still breaks the bike course record, doing great. But there were just all these guys faster than him. Like it was a real - And those guys were running under 240. A very like definitive, like seismic shift. Like here's a new generation of people. This sport is changing. It's changing really quickly. and this is the new crop, like a changing of the guard.

42:55Kona made that so evident. I mean, and I think there's a couple of factors. You know, we had a big break, right? You know, Kona 19 versus Kona 2022. But because we missed those races in between, you normally get like one or two rookies that come into a race you have high hopes for every year. But because they don't have the numbers, they almost just kind of fall into line with how the race is playing out. But here we had this critical mass of young guys new to Kona and they didn't care. And they didn't get stuck into the group think of how the old guys do it. They're like, no, like, let's go boys.

43:31And I think that dynamic of having all those new guys there at the same time really led to that. And kind of casual about the whole thing. You know, like, oh yeah, I rode this or I, yeah, like it was no big deal. Like not like, you know, like the older guys going, holy shit, like they're so much better. Yeah, I mean, you had the Norwegian fellas here a couple months ago and Olaf, their coach, and they were very matter of fact of like, this is what we're gonna do. And they did it and they executed. They executed perfectly. And none of this, like, I know you've worked with Mark Allen, right? So you're steeped in the mysticism of the island and the kind of vicissitudes of Madame Pele's, you know, decision to support or not support.

44:19Yeah. athletes and kind of being in sync with that vibration being an important aspect of how you approach that race and race that race. And I asked Gustav, I was like, yeah, what do you think about like, he's like. Yeah. He's like, he's like rolling his eyes, right? I know. I put no credence in that whatsoever. And like, he's young and the first time he did it, he won. And so it's like, it's understandable that he's like, I don't understand why everyone gets caught up about that. I think there's two things there. I do think the shift in weather, it's not the same race in terms of conditions. I think that used to be.

45:01The conditions were unbelievable this year, right? But they've been, you know, the race got shifted a little earlier in the morning, which helps. And then, yeah, I mean, 18, the conditions in 18 were amazing too. I mean, Daniela's race, that was kind of the equivalent of what, you know, the Norwegians and Sam Laidlow did this year. But yeah, that attitude they have, and I'm a little bit envious actually, Rich. I feel like I love to see it, but I feel like my generation, we didn't like after Crowey, between Crowey and now, like we didn't step up like we could have. You didn't like sort of iterate on what they established.

45:41Yeah, I think we all kind of fell in line with that thought of like, this is how it has to be and you have to be patient and all that. We didn't have anybody that really. Questioned that. Yeah. Yeah, interesting. So when you look at like the Norwegian methods and what Olaf is doing and all of that, like what do you take away from that? Like what do you, like you look at that and say, oh, actually I should use some of this and this and this or maybe not that. Yeah, I think, you know, They're using a lot of stuff that's been around, but they're using it in different ways, like lactate testing. I've been in the lab many times, done at one-offs, but the way they're incorporating it into the training, I think is taking it to the next level.

46:24I mean, there are some factors like shoes and aerodynamics on the bike that are just making everybody faster. And particularly on the bike, when your efficiency gets so much better, you're not spending as much energy on the bike and you can run better. I do, I get nervous about like the sugar glycogen spikes and that kind of like really like racing at that high level, how that'll play out in the long run. Meaning like you're, so you're wearing a CGM right now. I can see it on your arm, super sapiens. Yeah. So you're able to monitor your glucose levels in real time all the time. This is a big thing that the Norwegians are really looking at and studying.

47:13So when you say like the spiking, like what are you talking about specifically? Well, yeah, I think right now it's, I mean, glycogen, you need the glycogen to, it's a numbers game, right? To be able to perform for that long with those numbers, you gotta be burning a lot of fuel. I just don't know how when you're operating at that high level of like blood glucose levels how that will play with inflammation and the long-term implications on that. Yeah, long-term metabolic health and insulin resistance over time, right? Yeah. And some of the advice I've gotten going back to the heart is don't, like every time you spike your blood sugar, you're triggering inflammation that is the worst thing for your heart.

48:03Yeah, and you're 43 now, 42? Yeah, I'll be 43 at the end of the year. 43, yeah. Yeah, when you're like Christian Gustav, he's like, whatever. Like you're in that Superman infallible, like immortal stage of your life. Yeah, three Red Bulls and two shots of espresso at 4.30 in the morning. Let's go. Before the podcast I was sharing with you, I've got a galley of this new book called Outlive by Dr. Peter Atiyah. It's coming out this spring. He's coming in here next week. And the thesis of this book, it's a very grounded kind of look at extending not just lifespan, but healthspan through the prevention or delay of the biggest causes of mortality, which are heart disease, right?

48:53Or heart attacks, diabetes, obesity, metabolic. And it's all about like, all of these things are rooted in metabolic dysregulation. So he's a big proponent of using CGMs and trying to be ahead of the curve in terms of like how our body is metabolizing the food that we eat and the stress that we incur and all these sorts of things. And it's super interesting. And of course, yes, it relates to inflammation and all of these things are interrelated in a way that we don't appreciate adequately. Like we treat them separately. Well, type two diabetes and heart disease, these are two separate things. Well, actually, there's a lot, yeah.

49:35Like the Venn diagram overlaps quite a bit on all of this sort of stuff. And so for you being at your age, who's still an elite professional athlete who has suffered this heart attack and I'm sure has learned a lot about heart health, like what are the things that you've taken away in terms of A, like your own habits your own habits around lifestyle, nutrition, diet, et cetera. And kind of the advocacy piece of like what you want, you know, the normal person out there to understand about what, you know, how we should be, you know, thinking about our heart health and testing, et cetera. Yeah, I mean, I think first and foremost, everybody should learn their family history and know the warning signs.

50:26and those are things that I neglected. And fortunately, the silver lining for everything that's happened to me is that I do have a platform now that I can talk about this and bring awareness. And I've had so many emails or people coming up to me at races saying, thank you, you brought this education to me or a family member and you've helped us step in and prevent worse things happening from existing heart issues. So that's been huge.

50:59So, okay. So in your case, family history is what? On my father's side, we had, well, my mother's side, we had a heart attack, but I believe most of the genetic stuff is from your father's side. And we had coronary artery disease and quite a few of his ancestors. And he actually had this whole, I don't know if it was 23andMe or one of those things done. and I'm flipping through this and like, oh my gosh, like they had people going way back, family members and like everybody's like coronary artery disease and not just like a heart issue, you know, an artery issue, which is, you know, what I had.

51:35Except one guy who I think fell on a train track and was, you know, hit by a train. I'm like, okay, that one's not heart related. But at what age, like he might've had a heart attack and be late if he, yeah. But that was going way back. That was, I don't know, the early 1900s or something. Yeah, so robust history there. Yep. Myself also, like my grandfather, he was captain of the swim team at University of Michigan in the 1920s and stayed fit his whole life and died of a heart attack at 54. So when I turned 54, and I'm named after him, like it's, you think about your, it definitely was living like a present awareness in my like kind of daily consciousness that I didn't have before that.

52:23So it just makes you aware of your mortality in a way. But anyway, so warning signs then, like you mentioned, obviously chest pain. Chest pain, shortness of breath, huge warning sign. If it feels like someone's sitting on your chest, that's a good indication that there's an issue. obviously the left arm, the jaw also signs. Does the jaw happen on both sides or just on the left side? Usually the left side, I believe. Yeah, and that's because the LAD left ascending, what does it stand for? Left anterior descending. Anterior descending, right, okay. That's because that affects that side of the body.

53:10I believe so, yeah. Yeah. Or, Rich, if you're just noticing performance drops, if you're an athlete and you like all of a sudden, like things seem a little bit harder, there might be a slowing of your blood flow from maybe calcified plaque in an artery. And then there's a series of tests that you can do. I mean, you can do a calcium scan. There's been some advances in the types of scans though, right? Huge. Huge. And that actually was a big part of me coming after Des Moines of really getting confidence back. So I had done a calcium scan even before the heart attack. It showed calcified plaque in the LAD, not a ton, but where there's calcified plaque, there's soft plaque.

53:54And so that can really give you the issues, give you the trouble, rupturing, and you end up where I ended up. But after Des Moines, I started actually having some palpitations and fluttering. I got super nervous. turns out it did have a little bit of a abnormal rhythm but that was just from hey you're really dehydrated you did a hot humid iron man you you shocked your body your uh electrolytes are out of balance so it's an electrical issue no no problem but i'm obviously wanted to monitor that i put a holter monitor on for a couple days and we monitored everything not a big deal but i also but then went and did a, it's called a clearly scan.

54:35And that can actually, it's a non-invasive way, the only non-invasive way to show soft plaque. And I did that, paid out of pocket for it. I don't care, it's peace of mind, I need it. And it did, it really gave me a lot of confidence. We saw everything, everything looked good. Everything was, the stent was working, all that stuff. So - How does that work, that test? I think it's somehow done off of like a CT scan. And it shows, so the difference with that is it shows soft plaque versus like - Versus just calcified plaque. Calcified deposits, right. Interesting. And so you're all good on that. Yeah, I was.

55:12And that's when I'm like, all right, let's go. Like, let's let the ratings lose. But that wasn't until like July or August. So I had a pretty short runway going into the world champs. So in terms of like the average person, maybe the semi fit person, whatever, like whoever's listening to this, Like what is the, you know, I guess like the ideal time to get tested is like today, right? Like doesn't matter how old you are or whatever, how fit you are or how overweight or not overweight you are. I mean, you're like the pinnacle of fitness. So we think of people who are having heart attacks as being sedentary, overweight, people who smoke and have terrible diets, et cetera.

55:50And so it's shocking, you know, to hear like somebody, like you just wouldn't think somebody like yourself that this would happen. Yeah, and I think, especially if you have a family history, definitely get looked at. My siblings, I'm the youngest of four, and they were all like, if this happened, you know. Did they all go get in touch? Yeah, they all did. They're like, man, we're screwed. He's the best of all of us. He's the fittest. And how did those, I mean, are they okay? Yeah, everybody's good, yeah. Yeah, good, good. And then in terms of any kind of lifestyle habits that you've changed as a result.

56:24This is a part I actually struggle a little bit with, Rich, because my bandwidth with everything, it's been a lot to manage. And I noticed that in Kona, I just didn't have that fight. Like it was such a mental, emotional toll to get back to that point that it, you know, that's when I realized how much this had all really taken out of me. And I get mixed things from different specialists, right? I expected everybody to tell me to go vegan. and I need to talk to like, I know John Joseph as a cardiologist that he wants me to talk to you. So I'll probably talk to him when I retire. But the really only feedback I got was, hey, don't like avoid red meat basically.

57:12Like if it swims or flies, it's going to be better for you in terms of inflammation. Yeah. And I would imagine keeping an eye on like LDL, ApoB and like some of these blood markers and that's huge. And you have to go beyond your total cholesterol and your LDL, HDL. You know, I work with InsideTracker and now they have ApoB, which is a big indicator of, hey, okay. Right, that's like everyone's sort of, I think everyone was pushing InsideTracker for a while to have that marker because that has become like the most important marker. But you can go even further than that. The size of your LDL particles is huge.

57:51And that's another issue I have. if I have small LDL particles, that makes it easier to kind of get through a compromised artery and collect and just different transportation methods, which was the lipoproteins and how they bond to things. And I do know I need more to get more fiber in. And that's another thing, I had kind of cut out gluten. I had a lot of stomach issues with the first Kona and leaky gut and all that stuff. Now that I've learned more, I've kind of realized, and hey, maybe it's more of avoiding processed stuff versus good clean wheat or a sourdough. Or just looking at things that are producing inflammation in your body also, right?

58:30Exactly. Yeah. And that's a good thing with blood testing too is monitoring inflammation and then those particular markers. Right, right. And I did genetic testing as well. And sure enough, there was like four markers that were red flags. Yeah, cardiovascular disease. So how are you like moving forward now? Like you're coming off of, you know, a Kona that you're proud of. Like what is the, you know, the short and long-term future look like for you as an athlete, father, you know, advocate, et cetera? There was definitely a hard discussion with Rennie and like, what's this year gonna look like?

59:12I wanted to race. I actually woke up the next morning in Kona. I'm like, okay, I've closed that chapter. Like I came back, I closed it. But what about performance? I think I can still perform. So then I'm like, that wasn't about performance. That was more of like - It's shocking that that occurred to you. But unfortunately, Kona is only gonna be a women's race this year with a new format. The men's world championship will be in Nice. So I've decided I'm not going to do that. Right now, I'm just gonna do a couple of races that I wanna do for the love of racing and to try to get back and win a race and hopefully do maybe one more Ironman in the fall.

59:53But I mean, we talk about inflammation and markers, like it takes a toll training that much. I can see it in my blood work. So - It's not a recipe for longevity. It isn't, no. Yeah. And that's one of the cardiologists I'm working with. And we had before, we started recording, mentioned statins a little bit and I'm not currently on a statin. So you were previously? For the first year I was. And so what was the decision to stop? It really was about training. It impeded your ability. Yeah, because there's a lot of muscle soreness and a lot of issues with trying to train. And my doctor friends have inside jokes, they'll be on a ride and all of a sudden someone's not riding that well anymore.

1:00:38It's like, oh, he just got on a statin.

1:00:43but it's a, you know, we just talked about it. It's not a short-term, it's a short-term thing. It's not a long-term thing. And that's how we've approached it. The best argument I've gotten for being on a statin is that it can actually calcify soft plaque. So it can take some of that dangerous soft plaque and stabilize it, which is a consideration I have to definitely look more into, but they said that's a long-term thing. And you get through racing this year, year and a half, and that's a plan that will develop when you get done. Right, so another year. Yeah. Maybe, we'll see. I think so. We'll see.

1:01:24I'm not gonna, I don't wanna push it. I don't wanna push my luck, I don't wanna push my luck. And how does, I mean, obviously, these are family decisions. Your partner knows the landscape better than anybody. Like how is that like being married to, you know, an extraordinary athlete who does the same thing that you do? I imagine there's benefits, but it also maybe makes it challenging. Yeah, there's definitely, it's, there's, you know, you gotta, there's the good and the bad that you're managing. I mean, Timothy, she's more successful than you. She's way more. Why am I on here? Why do you, she should be sitting here.

1:02:00I'd love to talk to her. It was hard because when we started dating, she was, I was almost like a newcomer, right? I've been doing short course. I was on the national team. Olympics was on my mind and she was getting ready. We started dating in kind of 09 and she was getting ready for that first world championship. So - Was that the one where she just exploded onto the scene? It was, yeah. She ended up second. She ran like 256 in the Zuchus back in the day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's not in the super shoes. She's not in a Rocket X or whatever, making her go fast by any means. So yeah, for me, it was a little difficult to find myself, I guess, because you're here with the world's best and there is obviously stuff to learn, but everybody does it a different way at the same time.

1:02:51So it almost took me a couple of years to start to realize, hey, this is my path. This is my journey. This is the way I need to do it. and it probably wasn't until 2015 where I had that first podium in Kona where I was comfortable or confident enough in myself to say, okay, I obviously have all the love and the respect in the world for my wife. She's done it this way and it's worked. It's worked three times, but I'm me and this is my journey and this is the way I need to do it. Do you have different training philosophies and methods and different coaches and stuff? We do. Well, she started working with Julie Dimmons.

1:03:31I've been working with Julie for a couple of years since 2018. She really, Siri Lindley was her, kind of that coach in her career. They had a little break and then she got back into it. And Siri, Rennie, like you said, I'm an engineer. Like I like to dig into stuff. Rennie is so simple. She's like, let's do the work. I'm gonna nail it. This is my goal. This is where I'm going. This is what I'm going to do. And I'm just gonna make it happen. and Siri was perfect for her. And that Siri's not a, she isn't a super technical coach. You'd be like 40, 50s, they're gonna be bing, bam, boom. They're gonna be fast.

1:04:07Okay, I don't know what that means, but like, let's just work hard. And that was perfect for Rennie. And for you? For me, I needed, probably needed more help, less talent. So I needed to learn how to get more aerodynamic on the bike. I needed to learn how to run a little bit more efficiently because those were weaknesses of mine. Sure, but those are engineering problems. They are, yeah. And sometimes they take time to solve, right? It's, you know, all right, try this. And okay, it didn't work, evaluate it, go back, you know, see what happens and then just keep tweaking and tinkering. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:04:49And how is it being part of the Boulder community? like where everyone is, I mean, there's a camaraderie, right? Like there's a sort of a spree de corps, like so many people are into multi-sport and everybody's super fit and out getting after it. But a lot of pros live there. And it's gotta be, is there like a fatigue with that also? Like where you're going out and like kind of everybody's got the same goal. And I would imagine that there's challenges with that. There is. You only surround yourself with the people you wanna be around, right? So, I mean, there are so many people in Boulder. Actually, Aaron Royal was here, you know, Australian professional.

1:05:32He was in Boulder for a little while last year. I didn't even know. Well, everyone's in their basements. Yeah, right now. You're all in Boulder for... We haven't even had any sunshine. It's very weird, very weird. I feel like I'm back on the East Coast in the winter. But yeah, you can, I mean, you surround yourself with the people you want to I mean, I have great training partners, but they're all younger and they throttle it. So I have to be a little careful about what I get into in training and don't let my ego get the best of me. Right, right, right. Yeah, when you go out with other people, you're either going too hard or too easy, right?

1:06:12But you're rarely doing what you're supposed to be doing. Yeah, you know what I've actually found is the hardest is when like a age group athlete or something wants to come and ride with you. And they get nervous. That's their moment. Well, they get, yeah, or they get nervous. They don't wanna like hold you back. And then you just end up getting, they ended up giving it to you. And you're like, no, like this is, we just need to settle down, you know? I wanna talk a little bit about your background. I think there's some interesting stuff here. So you, your first sport was swimming. Yeah. And then you went to the Naval Academy, right?

1:06:48So did you grow up, where did you grow up? You grew up in California, Pennsylvania. You went to like a seminary school, right? I do, my high school Wyoming seminary, it wasn't like a proper seminary. It was a private day slash boarding school. But we grew up, my dad was in the corporate automotive world and we grew up everywhere. We got into swimming, we lived in Northern California outside of Sacramento and Roseville. Actually, Summer Sanders, her original swim team as well. She was a little bit before me, but. Yeah. The Sugar Bears. Nice. That's where we all started. And then we started moving around, but I was the worst swimmer in my family.

1:07:26I mean, my family still scratches their head that I've made a career out of being a professional athlete. I mean, I was hopeless when I was a kid. So, but you did it throughout high school and ended up like what you wanted to be in the Navy. Like what was the impetus to go to the Naval Academy? No, I didn't. I had no, originally had no desire. My older brother, Thomas, who's a couple of years older than me, he always wanted to go to Annapolis. Always did. And he went there and I seemed to kind of follow Thomas. I guess I emulated him. He was a great student. I'm like, I'll be a great student. He's a distance swimmer.

1:08:02Okay, I'm gonna be a distance swimmer. And then he goes to Naval Academy. Okay, I'll go check it out. So I went and visited him and I just, I fell in love with just the sense of duty and the sense of there being something more than just a college experience. Like I really felt like there was a purpose for being there and an honorable purpose, especially. So that kind of drew me in. And did you swim competitively at the Naval Academy? I did, I swam my first two years there. My swimming career was really based off of training harder than everybody else. Yeah, you and me both. Yeah, I mean, I didn't have the goods, but I prided myself on knowing that I could work harder than everybody else.

1:08:52Right. I mean, my coach - It'll take you pretty far. It's just not gonna take you all the way. Yeah, and it was, now I look back, like, especially when I had to start working on my running, I'm like, man, I wish I had taken the time to become a more efficient swimmer, work on my stroke. because I could have been better than I was. Yeah. It's a beautiful pool there though. I'm from Maryland. So I swam lots of meets at the Naval Academy pool over the years. Yeah, I remember when I was there, we came into practice one day and there was an age group meet and our coach was like, yeah, this kid just crushed the pool record and the 200 free record and just destroyed it.

1:09:31We're like, well, what's his name? Michael Phelps. Right, he's 12 or something. Yeah, he was. Right. And then, and so talk to me about like your kind of career in the Navy, like you, so you study like Naval engineering, right? Like you're gonna be a shipbuilder or something, and then you go to graduate school, Berkeley, but do you become a Naval officer or what is your relationship with the Navy? Because I know also like a big thing with you, like you've got the red, white and blue kit, and like there's a certain kind of relationship that you've maintained to that experience. So I just, I'm curious to learn more about that.

1:10:09Yeah, so when I went to the Naval Academy, there's a five-year commitment. Everybody graduates and everybody that graduates is commissioned as an officer in the United States Navy. And I, so go to the Academy, had no, never done a triathlon, didn't even know what triathlon was at that point. I knew I'd seen the Timex watches that say Ironman. That's all I knew. I didn't know what it meant.

1:10:32And my brother Thomas was an ocean engineer and it was time to go pick majors. And I went like, well, I don't wanna do everything Thomas does, but I'll do naval architecture, which is like a subset of ocean engineering shipbuilding. So I picked that and I had the most interesting Navy career, I think of anybody. You have a five-year commitment. I qualify for a program called the immediate graduate education program, which allowed you to go to a grad school. If you were accepted, you had to be in the top, like, I don't know, 5 % of the class. And you had to get a scholarship from that school where there was only two schools that have ocean engineering programs in the country.

1:11:12And it was Michigan or Cal Berkeley. And I'm like, whew, I'm in triathlon at this point. I am like, I quit swimming. I was full on triathlon. And the academy had a triathlon team. We had a club team. So it wasn't a varsity sport. For a while I balanced swimming and triathlon. I remember my sophomore year swimming Saturday morning practice. The officer rep for our tri team was waiting outside the pool, brought me to the airport. I flew to Tennessee, unpacked my bike, did the triathlon race that Sunday. Flew back home Sunday night, was back in the water Monday morning at 5.30 or whatever. Some coach would have flipped, kicked me off the team if he knew, but I was trying to balance both.

1:11:55and then I did Wildflower at the end of my sophomore year, which at that point was Collegiate Nationals. And I got 11th, I dropped my chain on that big hill coming out of transition. But I was a top guy in the Naval Academy team and I thought, hey, maybe there's something here. Maybe I can be good at this. And that's where I said, okay, I'm gonna stop swimming even though I had some of my best races at the end of that year. Stopped swimming and said, okay, let's go all in on triathlon. Interesting, yeah. Yeah, prior to that, you had mentioned to me that you had pursued like dive school for a minute.

1:12:29Yeah. Like tell me what happened. Okay, so I've never told this story, Rich. So it's pretty embarrassing. But yeah, I went to Berkeley, got my master's in ocean engineering there. And I service selected when I was still at the Academy, special operations, which is explosive ordnance disposal. And part of that is doing the EOD dive training. So I go to my command and I had already found like the best situation ever where I'd had the support from Navy sports and my commanding officer to pursue the Olympic dream. So I had convinced the Navy to be like, all right, this guy's got something special.

1:13:08I'd won the Armed Forces National Championship in triathlon. Like, okay, we're gonna support this guy. But I still had to go to dive school first and do that. So I come from the Olympic Training Center, finish up the season. And I'm like - So you're, hold on, just sorry to interrupt. There's a lot going on here. I told you. All right, the Navy deployed you to the Olympic Training Center. They did, yeah. Like you were officially like in, you know, an armed service officer, but you were there to just train triathlon and be at the Olympic Training Center. That was, yeah, it was more of a - You're like being paid or like - Yeah, you're normal.

1:13:42I was still an ensigner. I was like maybe Lieutenant JG at that point because the first couple of promotions are automatic. but the army and Air Force have world-class athlete programs. Yeah, of course. And Fort Carson outside of Colorado Springs is where the army is based. Navy didn't have that. So I had to kind of try to make one happen. And the Air Force Academy, of course, being in Colorado Springs. Right there, yeah. So actually, you know what happened, Rich, is I put together this like packet, promotions packet, and I sent it to the head of Navy sports. It was, I mean, professionally done.

1:14:12And the Navy personnel office is in all places is in Millington, Tennessee. but it lands on his desk. And just like as he's looking at it, the top ranked EOD guy on the West Coast who is going to be my head honcho boss walks by his door and he says, sir, take a look at this. And Captain Hines looked at it. He's like, this is awesome. Like these type of people we want in the Navy. Like let's promote this. So bam, all of a sudden I'm - There you go. So I'm heading to Colorado Springs. Sort of as a, and from a promotional perspective, like you're like a poster boy. Exactly. For recruiting, et cetera.

1:14:54So we do PR and things like that. I would go to dive tanks in Denver. But let's talk about the dive school. So I go there, I'm a little overconfident. I'm like, I'm super fit. I'm finishing the race season, but I didn't really prepare properly, which I should have known, right? And I get there and all the instructors are just waiting for me. They want to fail you so badly. Not only my junior officer, and these are all senior enlisted. So these guys are like, they're in it. They know everything. And they're like, oh, look at this little runt. But I'm also like, I'm almost like the boss's pet too, right?

1:15:28Like his project. So I had a target on my back, which I didn't know at the time I was oblivious. I'm just like, do, do, do, do, do. So I get up for the physical test at the start of the high school. And I go and I do my pull-ups. And I have a 6 '6 wingspan and I'm barely six feet tall. So I'm like kind of misproportioned. Not great for doing pull-ups. And I do my pull-ups, I get off the bar. I do like one or two extra over the minimum, which I think was eight or nine. And I feel like you failed. Like what? I'm like, yeah, no, yeah. Like three of those didn't count. Your chin didn't go all the way over the bar.

1:16:04I'm like, you didn't tell me that. Like, I didn't know that you're off the bar. And they're just kind of messing with me. So they're like, okay, well, you gotta like do a retest. and if like, if you fail to retest, you're out. So then I kind of like panic, I get in panic mode. I got two days or whatever. It's a weekend, all the other guys are going off and partying over the weekend. And I'm just like trying to do pull-ups all weekend. Well, it's like the worst thing to do, right? You show up exhausted. I show up to the retest, I can barely lift my arms. And I didn't do it, I didn't do it. I didn't get there.

1:16:36And I had to go to the board and basically they're like, all right, yeah, we have to boot you out. But at the same time, they're all scratching their heads because they're like, oh, this went terribly wrong. We weren't expecting this guy who top of his class at the academy and professional athlete, this is a weird situation, right? So I get booted. Political firestorm. Yeah, yeah. I get booted out and I'm like, ah. Did you do the breath hold stuff and all the other aspects of the test though? This was like before all that. Oh, okay. So this is like a precursor to get to that. Yeah, it was like right at the beginning, yeah.

1:17:10So it's like you're like, you're revolving door. You can get through the gate. Yeah. Like, all right. So I'm like, I'm like, I'm shocked. They're shocked. I'm like, I don't, what's gonna happen? Like, am I just gonna go to the fleet and like have to like be a surface warfare officer? I don't know. Luckily, they made an exception. Like, all right, we're gonna like, this is - Don't tell anyone. Yeah, yeah. Just, we're gonna put you back in the next class. So I went back to my command in Coronado for, I don't know, it was eight weeks or whatever. and like, they're like, just your only job is just go to the bullet bar outside the building and just make sure you do this.

1:17:45So I ended up going back and I had some redemption. You know, I did, I don't know, I did way more than I needed to do. And I ended up, you know, I was a class leader and ended up being the honor graduate. So the top graduate in the class, but I still, oh man, along the way that those eight weeks, however long class was, oh man, I had everybody after me. I remember we were, you know, they, you have to pass all these tests like breath hold and things like that. And they have one where they just beat the crud out of you when you're on the bottom with your tank on, they pull your tank off, they tie all your tubes, you rip all your stuff off and you got to sort it all out.

1:18:22And the master chief of the dive school, he's like, my buddy was up top and they're like, all right, who's up next? Like O'Donnell, he's like, I got him, I got him. So he comes, he does a number on me and writes on a little chalkboard. I finally get my mask back on. He writes on chalkboard or the track race board. Good luck. Like, good luck with this one. And I did it and I got through it. And he's like, okay, all right. This, you know, maybe this guy's okay. Right, you had to do it with a target on your back. Yeah, and I actually got amazing letters from the two instructors in my class. They're like, really, thank you.

1:18:59Like, you did an amazing job. We really appreciate you sticking that through. And so it all, you know, all's well, the ends well, but it was hairy. Yeah. And any thought of kind of, you know, joining the special forces or being SEAL or anything like that? I was the only guy on the tri team my senior year, which is probably five or six of us that didn't go SEALs. I was the only, all my buddies are - They all went SEAL. Yep. They're all team six guys now, or, you know, they're getting out and stuff, but. It's an interesting kind of time that we're in, and maybe this has a lot to do with like social media and the internet, but the kind of ascension of the special ops officer as kind of a celebrity, you know what I mean?

1:19:46Like whether it's books that are being written or just people that impart wisdom on podcasts, like there's a lot of energy around, you know, SEAL Team Six guys, et cetera. And it's cool. It's cool to like learn from these guys and try to extract from their experience something that's actionable. But as somebody who has a background in this, like how do you, like what is your perspective on all of that? How do you look at all of that? Like whether it's Goggins or Jocko Willink and these guys that are out there and people love these guys. And Goggins also like being, he, part of his career was not disdainful, is similar in that he was sort of a, kind of on tour doing a lot of talks, on behalf of the Navy.

1:20:37And there's that famous commercial that he shot where he's running, like, I think they even aired that during Iron Man. Yeah, one point, I think before I started doing Kona, they had, I think they had some of the seals, like they sponsored the race and they had seals like drop in. He was one of those guys. Oh yeah, and then they did the race, right? They parachuted into the swim. Yeah, they parachuted into the swim start. Yeah, exactly. I think he was one of those guys that did it. that year. It's hard because you get split support. People think it's awesome, but then in the service and other people like, oh, you're not doing your job that you were supposed to do.

1:21:10Right. So that's really tough. You're the shiny thing that they're dangling in front of other people while we're actually out here doing the gig. Right, exactly. But I mean, there's value. I think one of the biggest mistakes the Navy made was David Robinson back in the day. Oh yeah. They should have had him in his whites going into every game. Like imagine that he's got his whites on, like officer and gentleman, you know, going into the arenas. Like there was, there's value to that. And I mean, there's, duty can be served in so many different ways. And I actually really struggled with that when I got out of the Navy.

1:21:44My time was up at the end of 08. I just missed the Olympic team by a couple of spots at trials. And I felt guilty that I didn't do what I was supposed to do in the Navy. I'd signed up to be a EOD officer and I'd gone and done this crazy path and they had supported me so well. And it really, it was eating at me, like, what should I do? And luckily my department head, Kevin Childry, who had been actually in his early enlisted days, actually did triathlon like professionally for a little while. And he sat me down and he's like, Tim, you don't write your own orders. you've done what we've asked you to do.

1:22:27By the way, you're way behind your year group. You're never gonna get promoted past like 04, Lieutenant Commander. So you've kind of shot yourself in the foot with your Navy career and you have potential to do something great in triathlon. So don't let the thought of, you know, being here to serve in another way, hold you back. Like you've done what we've asked you to do. Now go follow your dream. and that was a really big moment for me. Yeah, and is that, that informs, like back to that thing of like, okay, clearly like you put a lot of thought into the kit that you wear and all of that. So like allegiance to that sensibility is part of the reason why, like you kind of comport yourself the way that you do.

1:23:14Absolutely, I mean, I look at triathlon as a gift that the men and women of our armed services really gave me, without the support of the Navy when I was in the Navy or even learning about triathlon when I was at the Naval Academy, my life would be completely different. I mean, I wouldn't have my wife or kids right now, right? I mean, if I wasn't in the sport, it all stems from that. So I am eternally grateful to our armed services and everybody that are part of it. It's cool. When the day of retirement comes, like what is that? Do you have any sense of what that looks like for you? I mean, are you gonna like dig into that engineering background or are you gonna?

1:23:54I'm gonna give you a little piece of advice, Rich. If you see a boat that says designed by Tim O'Donnell, yeah, do not step on a boat that says it's designed by me, all right? All right. No, I'm well past that. I look at my engineering background. I'm confident that if you decided to explore that, that it would be a safe boat. It would work, yeah. No, I'm too far removed from that. I think the engineering piece of my education is great for problem solving, which has really played well into what I, Ironman racing. I mean, it's all giant puzzle, right? There's so many different things you're trying to put together on the fly when you're out there racing.

1:24:29I don't know. I mean, I wanna do, I wanna put the energy into triathlon, into something else and try to have that success. I don't really fully know what that is yet. Rennie and I are going to start like an age group coaching business focused on, we're not gonna be high performance coaches. We're not gonna look to coach the next rainy, you know, Ironman world championship. We've seen, we've looked for balance as much as we can in being professional athletes. And we've seen how hard triathlon can be on families, particularly age group families. When you're working jobs, you have kids and then you're trying to train for an Ironman.

1:25:12So we're looking to, okay, next step is let's integrate triathlon into people's lifestyle. So it's a healthy part. There's that saying, like if you're still married, you're not training hard enough. Like we don't want that. Iron Man widow. Yeah, I know. So that's gonna be kind of a big, I think part of the next step because we do wanna stay connected to the sport. On top of that, I'd love to get into public speaking. I think that would be really fun. I think you're really good at that. Thanks, yeah. And I've been messing around with some real estate investment stuff that I think will probably be part of it too.

1:25:47Cool. What is the, you know, on that coaching tip, like what is the advice that you would give the, you know, amateur, the enthusiastic amateur? Like you've been to a million races, a million Ironmans. You've seen these people out there. Like what are the common mistakes that you see people making that are easily avoidable? Like if you have a minute, just be like, please stop doing this thing that I always see people doing. Overtraining, Rich, everybody over trains. I mean, I understand if you are trying to be a professional and get there, like you got to put the work in. But if you're overtrained for all the other stuff you have in your lifestyle, you're gonna hit the race course unprepared in the sense of just not being able to access the work you've done.

1:26:35And get a coach or get on a program and find some people around you that you can train with and share the enthusiasm, enjoyment with and talk about it with your family. Don't make those plans by yourself, make them as a family. It's definitely a joint agreement. It is, everybody's gotta invest in it, right? Everybody has to be bought in or it's not gonna go well, right? And if you're gonna try to train 20, 25 hours a week and you have kids and a job and all of that, I mean, it's tough, man. Where did you max out on training hours back in the day? I mean, the most, I mean, maybe like short periods of like 22 to 25, but a lot of 20 hour weeks, and then probably the vast majority 15 hour weeks.

1:27:26And that was freaking hard. Like that's not sustainable. No. So yeah, if you're a pro, if you're Gustav and Christian and you don't have girlfriends and like you're pretty, you're just like you're in your twenties and this is what you do, great. Most people, that's not gonna work. So stop taking your tip from that and try to figure out how to root what you're trying to accomplish balanced against the other things that are valuable in your life. And I think you can put more energy at that level for an atrium competitor wanting to really enjoy the sport, put more energy into some of the other details.

1:28:04Get a proper bike fit or learn about nutrition things like that. Like make yourself as efficient as possible. So your success can come from something else other than just training 20 or 25 hours a week. Yeah, and the training being for the most part, you know, joyous and nourishing as opposed to draining and, you know, denigrating to the other aspects of your life. I was talking to a atribe athlete a couple of weeks ago and she had like full on trained for this Ironman. was over-trained, did horrible. Got on a separate program that was like 10 hours a week, 12 hours a week and ended up the next year.

1:28:45Doing better. Doing so much better. And she enjoyed it. You know who's great on that is Gordo Byrne. I'm sure you know Gordo. Everybody in Boulder knows everyone, right? Oh yeah, Gordo and Monica are great people. Guys so wise. Yeah, amazing. The last thing I wanna talk to you about before I let you go is kind of the current state of the union of triathlon, professional triathlon,

1:29:12and this issue of athlete representation in sport, which I think you're very immersed in in terms of triathlon, but also I think is relatable outside of just triathlon itself. Like the role or the power dynamic between the athlete and the organizations that kind of control the trajectory of a professional athlete's career. Yeah, I've been involved in some form since 2014 of the athletes trying to put themselves in a better position. And it's never been about like trying to go against Ironman or oppose them. Rene and I have made our careers really off Ironman, right? Like without Ironman. You can be very politic, right?

1:30:04Yeah, a good Navy man. I'll say what you can't say, which is that like the WTC, all right, no. I mean, it's a massive conglomerate. It makes a lot of money hosting a lot of races. It's very profitable in what it does. And it's a beautiful thing in that it allows, you know, a massive number of amateurs to compete alongside professionals in the sport, which is a really cool thing. You know, I think it's amazing. But I think that the sport, you know, like really, you know, caters to that amateur experience in a beautiful way, but does not do enough to take care of the professionals who are dedicating their life to elite performance, especially in a sport where you can only compete at your peak a couple of times a year.

1:30:57Like how many Ironmans can you do? and these purses don't cut it. And the parody between men and women, like there's so many problems here that need to be solved. Yeah, and I think it all starts with the fact that they're an event company, right? They aren't like, we're almost a sideshow. It's not that different than like putting on concerts. You know, the fact that it's sports almost is a footnote. But I mean, they'll sell out, and this is probably their argument, they'll sell out an Ironman that there's without a pro race, right? So it's almost always like, do they need pros? And that's because we haven't been packaged as a product that we can sell.

1:31:36We haven't been packaged as entertainment. And I think, I mean, it's like, why was everybody so mad at Lance with all this stuff? It's because he was seen as inspiration, not entertainment, right? People didn't look to him as an entertainment feature like the NFL guys that are pounding each other and all doing stuff behind the scenes or whatever. And I think we've been stuck in that inspiration role and that's why it is awesome that we're interacting with the age group community at Ironmans, but it doesn't necessarily help us grow the sport professionally or even on the amateur level. And that's where I think we got something really interesting with the PTO right now.

1:32:19It's because we're putting together a package of races focused on professionals that we can put out there. I mean, there's 22, 23 million views on television last year of PTO events. So this is something we haven't done before, being able to focus on the pros to help kind of grow that. And it's been hard. We had to bring together a partnership, right? There's investors and then there's the athletes. And we got to rally athletes. It's a hard situation for the athletes because we're all, it's a self-sport, kind of a almost a selfish sport. And we've never had anybody around long enough to really believe in, right?

1:32:54Like there's always these monies coming in, like a Try Dubai or like American Interbank where like there's some cash thrown at the athletes and everybody grabs as much as they can and they think it's just gonna disappear. So they never really invest in it. But now we're a partnership. You know, we own half of the PTO as athletes. So we're putting, it's sweat equity for us. We need to get behind it and we need to make sure this thing succeeds. We need to get the same athletes consistently racing each other on these big stages with big prize money. and we need to get to a point where you're not losing money just to show up to a race.

1:33:28And that's where the sport is at right now. I mean - Yeah, it's super expensive to travel to all these exotic locations and to like bring your bike and stay in hotels and all of that. And then the prize money doesn't even cover the travel expenses. So like this, it makes no sense. And so it's incumbent upon the athlete to go out and get their own sponsorships outside of prize money. which, you know, like a lot of these companies within multi-sport, like, yeah, they'll give you a bike or they'll give you product, but like not a lot of money is being thrown around unless you're at the very highest level.

1:34:05And that's reserved for like, I don't know, five or six people and everybody else, good luck. And now we have even more talent that's worth the money, but the pie is not any bigger, right? I mean, when you talk about endemic, you know, bike companies, shoe companies. So if you get, if you win Kona and you're a man, what do you get? And if you're a woman, what do you get? The prize money is equal. It is. What is it, like 250 or something? No, I think the win is like 125. 125? 125 ,000. Yeah, yeah, I know. For the Ironman World Championship. But if you get - What is it if you win, you know, like, I don't know, the, you know, PGA.

1:34:42I mean, there's - Augusta. There's like 600th ranked, like, tennis players that are making 600 grand. The Australian Open or whatever, you know. Like, yeah, it doesn't make any sense. But we need to be able to bring the money in particularly from getting exposure on television to bring in some of these other partners beyond the sport banks, car companies. What is the advertising revenue that NBC garners from their Iron Man broadcast? I mean, it's gotta be, because that's always like an Emmy winning production. Right, but I believe they pay for the television time. So yeah, they're paying the WTC for the rights to broadcast.

1:35:18I believe Iron Man pays them to buy the sport. they buy the airtime and then whatever sponsor, whatever commercials they air, they bring back into them to, they keep it, right? I see. That's not a great model for, No. Like if you wanna generate revenue off of selling the sport as entertainment, you gotta bring it in a lot more. Well, and also now that it's being live streamed, how valuable is the broadcast when it's, however many months later, when they finally air it. Yeah, that's, you know. And it's, I mean, they're hard races. It used to be a big thing. Like, is it still a big thing? I think they still, it's more of kind of that documentary style though versus like a true race event, right?

1:36:04Right, you're not watching it to see who wins. You're watching it for the pageantry. Yeah. So the PTO, that stands for Professional Triathlete Organization. Correct, yeah. So it's sort of a quasi kind of collective bargaining organization, but also an event production company. Like you're creating these races, right? That are designed for like audience engagement that are kind of playing around a little bit with the traditional format of what a triathlon race is. And to develop stories too, right? Like the NBA really grew when Magic Johnson and Larry Bird came in and they had this story, this NCAA championship rivalry coming into the NBA, magic, very colorful character, Larry Bird kind of the curmudgeon, like just hard worker guy.

1:36:57And the dynamics was awesome, right? And that being able to tell stories really lifted the sport. It's not just about the competition, it's about the stories and the rivalries and things like that. You gotta be able to create an emotional connection with the individuals. Absolutely. You wanna root for somebody, right? Yeah, whether it's Dave Scott and Mark Allen racing toe to toe, like who are we, why are we watching this? Why do we care about who these people are? And if it only comes like Kona once a year on the television and you see Jan or Rennie, whoever it is, like once a year, you need to have that storyline and you need to that consistency.

1:37:34You need to be seeing these athletes face each other every other week or every couple of weeks. And you need to see that play out with a definitive winner at the end. I think that'll be super important too. And it can't be a charity either. Like this whole PTO endeavor isn't a charity, it's a partnership, right? I mean, if you just hand out money to athletes, I mean, the prize money that the PTO has handed out in the last couple of years is insane. I mean,$2 million end of year bonus rankings pool and a million dollar prize purses at the US Open and the Canadian Open. It's a big deal for the sport.

1:38:13That's huge. Yeah, that's huge. progress. We have to be a business. We have to be able to cover that. You know, the investors are awesome, but they're, they're not, they're, they're here to make money off of business too, right? They, they're not here to just give us handouts. Yeah. There has been, there is a history of like kind of money coming in and, and like the Bahrain, there's the whole Bahrain thing. Like, is that still a thing? Like, I think it is. And then what's the, when the, when those guys lose interest, the money goes somewhere. It's like, oh, actually I want to follow cycling now.

1:38:42So, I'm gonna put this into a cycling team. Like the Crown Prince was super into triathlon. And so it was just like a pet project for him. But, you know, I don't know. A lot of money seemed to come into the sport. And then what's the other series where there's like a Russian oligarch involved? Like the Malibu. Super League. Yeah, Super League, right? Yeah, and MACA. Yeah, MACA's involved with that. Okay. Yeah, like I think they bought the Malibu triathlon. So I was down there the other, you know, like it's... I did, yeah. I think what's successful about that is, you know, oligarch aside, is playing with the format, like the way that they kind of, you know, mix it up and try to make it more interesting for, you know, somebody who's trying to just witness and pay attention, like the fan.

1:39:24Absolutely. And I think, like, you get someone that hasn't seen, like, Olympic, like, world triathlon racing, and the first thing they'll say is, from just being a casual viewer, it's like, oh, that mixed relay, that's really cool, you know? So there is some tinkering to do with format and engagement to really make it powerful. But I think it comes down to the other athletes really need to understand that if you wanna make this work, then you have to help create this business, which is the races, right? Yeah. And from that, we can generate revenue that then can support athlete growth and developing pipelines for up and coming athletes, right?

1:40:01And subseries and things like that, where you can really start to put a foundation under the sport to successfully grow in the longterm. Right, so when you look at golf, tennis, some of these other sports where the athletes do quite well, what's still missing in triathlon? Like where's the, so you're here in town because you had a PTO meeting, right? Like a board meeting, right? So what do you guys talk about? Like what are you working on establishing to bridge the gap between kind of where triathlon is versus these other sports where the athletes are kind of being accorded pay and respect in a manner that seems more on parity with what they deserve.

1:40:46That's a great question, Rich. And we actually, Chris Kermode has been brought on as current chairman running the show and he's from the tennis world. He's running the ATP for a long time. So he sees the value in this and he's got a reputation that he wants to uphold too, right? He's not gonna hop onto a sinking ship, right? He's here to make this thing work. I wish I could tell you more about what we discussed. Yeah, it's all private. That non-disclosure. Yeah, yeah. But rest assured, yeah, there is a great plan for the future. It's cool. I mean, I feel like the next, we were talking about this changing of the guard at Kona, like the younger athlete, like these are internet native people who grew up with social media and they intuitively understand that as professionals, like their image and their kind of like their, I hate that word brand or whatever.

1:41:36They have to shoulder the responsibility of creating interest in what it is that they're doing. And that's just part of their DNA. Whereas older people like your generation, certainly my generation, I'm way older. That was something that people had to learn or kind of resisted or didn't think that they had to do. But that's just part of the mentality. It's like, oh, you're a professional. Okay, here's what you need to do. So like you'll get sponsors because you have a certain number of people on Instagram who care about the storytelling that you're doing. And you know how to tell a story to get people interested so that when you are racing, you have a fan base.

1:42:14And that, you know, like sort of scaled up creates a lot more interest in the sport, which ultimately will bring more eyeballs and money and all of that into it. Yeah, and it starts from the top. We have to really engage those top athletes, right? The young guys, the Norwegians. because - You see Gustav and Christian and Sam and like, you know, those guys know what they're doing online. And we can't grow unless we get the top to really, you know, get on board. And then, you know, once we get it all established, everything trickles down, right? And then we can start supporting development, things like that.

1:42:51But Rini and I joke, we've been around a long time, right? We joke that we signed up to be professional athletes, but now we're just social media influencers. I mean, the shift has been insane, right? And we struggle with it so much. The Tim and Rennie show, the YouTubers. We were kind of one of the first in our sport to get on that. And we're like, I don't know if this is what we wanna do. But then we kind of, the floodgates opened with all the other athletes. But yeah, I mean, Lionel's channel probably gets more views than like an Ironman broadcast, right? No, I know, yeah. It's really smart.

1:43:29And ultimately, you develop, however many people are interested in whatever it is you're sharing, those people start to care about you. That's important. I feel like that is part of the job. It definitely is. And I think Rini and I, we're good about being able to kind of shift a little bit. I mean, the old days, you put a logo on a kit and you try to get on a magazine cover. That's done. And then you're good, you're done. You do one booth appearance at a race and you're gone. Those days are long gone. Yeah, they're so far gone. And probably for the better, like what is the value proposition of that?

1:44:05You know what I mean? Like it doesn't really make sense. And I think there's still a lot of companies that are stuck in that paradigm and they don't understand like, that really doesn't matter. You know, what matters is who really cares about what you're doing? Like whether you get fifth or first or 10th is much less important than, you know, how emotionally attached, you know, people out in the world are to what it is that you have to share with them. Yeah, and it's almost this kind of like butting of heads between story and performance, right? Yeah. They don't always align. You have to perform.

1:44:38You still have to perform. Like it can't. Yeah, some people don't. Do you have to win? I don't know, you know? Yeah, or I mean, like if you do, if you have the credibility of, if you have a record of performance, you have the credibility, that's, you know, obviously a great spot. Right. Yeah. So what's the future of the Tim and Rennie show on YouTube? We gotta get Kenny back. We're like, Kenny, we need you. Does he live in Boulder? He does live in Boulder, yeah. We made the mistake though. We want everybody to grow around us too. So like, connected a lot of partners and stuff. And then our partners start using them so much.

1:45:11Like, hey, we still need some Kenny time too. Yeah, come on, where's our Kenny? Yeah, you gotta get back on that. Yeah, no, we're gonna, we'd like to. And I think we have a lot to share with this kind of transition period too, right? It's not all about racing anymore for us. You know, we're parents, we're figuring out what's the rest of our life gonna look like. And I think that's a compelling story to our audience. Yeah, good man. Are you gonna come out and be on an episode of the show? I would love to. Yeah, all right. I'd be honored to. Next time you're in Boulder. Yeah, for sure. That's a promise.

1:45:42And if Rennie, that seat is wide open for Rennie anytime she wants to come. Oh yeah, we'll get her out of a - I used to see, like when Siri had her group out here that she was training, I think Rennie was part of that. She was, yeah. Like was living out here, right? So I would see them like over in Malibu Creek State Park, they would do a run loop in there. And they would go ride as a Peloton and she would like drive behind them. Or I used to see them out. And you know, Siri, she bought a pool. She did? Yeah, they had a pool that they had like a, like one of those like above ground, like 25 meter.

1:46:18Oh, I think I remember seeing something about that. And it wasn't heated though. Renew said it was so cold. Like it's just, I don't know where it was, but. But now she like has a horse ranch somewhere. Yeah, she has a horse rescue. I mean, her and Beck are doing an amazing job with that. I mean, they're doing some real good up there. It's cool. Yeah. Well, it's great to talk to you, man. Yeah, thanks, Rich. I really appreciate being here. This is awesome. Any kind of like last words for, you know, the unsuspecting person out there who might be harboring a little bit of arterial plaque or the aspiring Ironman athlete who's spending too much time training and not enough time at home.

1:46:59Like, I don't know, what do you wanna leave us with? Yeah, I just think life is precious and it goes by quickly. So just make sure you're doing everything you can to enjoy the moment and the people around you and everything you can to make sure you're around for as long as you can be as well. Yeah, I appreciate it. I think your story is really powerful. And it's just, you know, it's so extreme that, you know, once you hear it or, you know, watch the videos or whatever, you can't, it doesn't leave your consciousness. And it really like, as somebody who, you know, look, I care a lot about my health, but it's inspired me to go.

1:47:36And, you know, I haven't been, I haven't gotten a calcium test in a couple of years. Like, I really should go and check that. And I think everybody should. And I think, you know, you're in a position to really spread a message that's not only powerful, I mean, let's face it, like heart attacks, that's the number one killer. Like this is the thing that like, by and large, most people are gonna die from, right? It is the number one killer for men and women in the US. I mean, yeah, it's real. There's no better investment than ourselves and our bodies, right? It is as serious as a heart attack. It is.

1:48:12There we go. Cool, well, come back and talk to me again sometime. This was super fun. I'll let you know next time I'm in Boulder, I wanna come in. I know the house from the videos, so now I gotta go see it for myself. Everybody knows where we live. I don't know if that's good or not. But much luck to you, and if there's anything I can do for you, I'm at your service. Thanks, Rich. Yeah, cheers. Peace. Nice.

1:48:45That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

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1:50:08Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets, courtesy of Daniel Solis, as well as Dan Drake. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

1:50:42Thank you.