The Godfather of Probiotics on Facts Vs Fiction, The Microbiome, & The Power of Microbes To Heal

27:06Instead, what do we do? Nothing. We give them drugs or we treat them. and I remember I got a colonoscopy and I said to the doctor, okay, you flushed out all my good organisms. How are you going to get them back in for me? He thought I was an idiot. Well, that's common. But in the concept of a hospital, in our hospital at one point, they told us that the daily food budget for a patient was like 50 cents. Well, wait a minute. If you have a patient who's seriously ill, shouldn't you be looking at beneficial microbes and nutrition to help them recover? and studies I cite in the book about in Germany, they were doing that.

27:41Guess what? They had less infections. They were out quicker. They had a better outcome in the patients. So why aren't we following these protocols? There's this recalcitrance. There's this resistance that doesn't make sense to me within the hospital setup.

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31:29well let's dig a little bit more into the origins of that recalcitrance and the resistance and it's rooted in your origin story i mean what's so interesting about this book is i thought it was going to be this very dense science primer on probiotics and it really serves is part memoir, partly a book about golf and golf and life. But it's also this letter to young scientists and medical doctors. And you do that through telling your own story. So where did this interest in probiotics begin? Like walk me through the journey. Well, as I said, Dr. Bruce had done this observation and I joined his lab in 1982.

32:13I did my PhD in New Zealand and I came to Canada. And he really felt that lactobacilla had a role in protecting women against urogenital infections. And if you think about it, to this day, for 50 years, we haven't done anything for these patients. The antibiotics that you get for an E. coli infection are not specific for E. coli. Ideally, they should be. No, they kill other organisms. And so this concept of at least promoting the beneficial microbes, if not utilizing them to our benefit, was really his idea. And we started studying the organisms. And of course, if I bring that up till today, there's young scientists today that are coming up with pioneering breakthroughs that the rest of society or the community will say are ridiculous.

33:01And if they really believe in them, and if the data is supportive, they shouldn't be put off. Now, I'll give an example. In urology, there's a guy called Don Coffey. He's a brilliant scientist from Johns Hopkins. And he was chairing an NIH panel. He told us this story in Toronto. And he said to the panel, before I even look at the grants in front of me, I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going to take the craziest idea that has been put forward and I'm going to fund it. He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So anyway, this idea came up. He says, this is the one I'm funding. No, no, come on, you're crazy.

33:39This is a simple experiment. It's not going to work, blah, blah, blah. So he finally got the panel to do a visit to the lab. And they eventually approved it. This was cisplatinum. Now that's a major cancer drug. So it took that person to go against everyone else to take a shot at this. And there aren't enough people like that. And our story was the number of times we got kicked back and kicked back and kicked back and kicked back. And so it takes courage, it takes belief, which I was very fortunate to work with a surgeon. And I think we need more scientists and surgeons and physicians working together on this.

34:20We worked in kidney stones and there's geologists that maybe we should work on as well. And so it was a long time and it shouldn't have been. And I think we could have probably cut the time back in 10, 15, 20 years maybe. We started in 1982. the definition is 2001. Well, that's 20 years later already. And even after that, it's taken another 20-odd years and we're still fighting to get grants that will help us understand this and companies that will invest back into the products. But essentially, some 40-odd years ago, I wouldn't call it a light bulb moment, but you have this experience where you realize that there is efficacy in treating UTIs, urinary tract infections with microbes.

35:16And you're seeing great results with a condition that has been treated a certain way for a very long time with very poor results. Hence ensues a very long period of time of frustration because you're thinking like, this is working. why can't we implement this more broadly? And perhaps even more importantly, we should be looking at the efficacy of microbial treatments to treat any manner of acute or chronic conditions. Prevention more than treating. Okay. Prevention. So we did look at treating in patients who were disabled and couldn't control their bladder and therefore had E. coli sitting in the bladder.

35:56And we tried to put lactobacilli into the bladder to treat them. But in general, it's for prevention. But there are so many conditions that you can prevent. So, the simple application of beneficial microbes was just ridiculed. I think one of the more profound examples of this is the efficacy of probiotics in treating necrotizing enterocolitis, which you have direct experience with, NEC. explain what that condition is, where it arises, and why probiotics have proved effective. Right. So again, it's prevention. So it started in 1992. My wife had twins. I sat outside the delivery room. My first baby rushed by me.

36:43The next one rushed by me straight into the intensive care unit. They were there for five weeks. Thankfully, they came out great. But during that time, another baby developed necrotizing enterocolitis and the curtains went round the baby and eventually it died, which is awful. So why did that baby get it? Well, when you're born by cesarean section and you're premature by a good 10 weeks or 15 weeks and you're low birth weight, you can imagine the intestine's not being developed. It's still got a long way to develop. So in that room, that NICU, what beneficial microbes are getting in, as I said earlier?

37:22None. Can we give these babies some beneficial microbes? Now, breastfeeding helps because breastfeeding and we showed, we studied milk and we showed that there are beneficial microbes in human milk, which is great, but it's not enough. So these babies get extremely sick. They often have major surgery. They may have their bowels removed. There's a breathing problem that occurs, is that correct? Well, you get multi-organ failure. The breathing problem that, in fact, our daughter had was solved by another invention called surfactant, which was miraculous. It was like night and day, my baby's whole body was going like this, trying to breathe, and then they get surfactant.

38:05And that was an invention by a colleague of mine at the University of Western Ontario. But I said at the time, can't we introduce beneficial microbes, probiotics, to prevent NEC? Well, that was 92, nothing happened. And then we had a debate, which is on YouTube. It's gone viral, there's at least 500 views. Like U2 at the sphere. Yeah. So I've debated with the physician who essentially is in charge of NICU. And it was his decision whether they introduced these or not, right? That's the system. And I won the debate, of course, but nothing happened until a person in Montreal took this product. It's called Flora Baby and said, let's try it.

38:54So they tried it and lo and behold, it started to prevent neck. And so my colleague said, right, we'll bring it into London, Ontario. So this was 2014, 2016. And about two years ago, I said to him, look, where's the paper? because we have to study and see if this actually worked. And he said, well, it was submitted and then it didn't get accepted and then nobody followed up. I said, right, I'm going to look at this. This needs to be published. So we looked at it, but not only looked at what happened back at that time, but what happened since. And so you can follow the rate of NIC. And essentially, we stopped NIC from happening, not totally.

39:33What percentage of premature infants suffer from this condition? Well, in our case, it was about 5%, 6%. Turns out in Canada, there's a hospital that's at 15%. That's one in six babies. I mean, that's absolutely ridiculous. Of course, antibiotics aren't going to help. They don't prevent it. If you get infection, of course, you have to treat with antibiotics. But what have you done to the baby? So it's never seen mom's vaginal microbes or intestinal microbes. It's in an environment where it's got tubes in it and lines. and it's got an intestinal tract that's not fully developed, we have to find a way to help it develop and protect it from these pathogens that are everywhere.

40:16And nurses carry multidrug-resistant staphylococcus. It's not their fault, but they're in an environment where these organisms are prevalent. So anyway, we introduced it, the rate plummeted. And then just in the last couple of months, we had this disastrous news. There was a baby that died in the States from a completely different organism. I don't know the case. I don't know what happened. But it was another case of, my goodness, a probiotic seems to have maybe killed this baby. Now, I'm all for safety. Because let's face it, you're putting a live organism into a baby. And so my thing would be, let's find out the antibiotic that can kill that organism just in case for some reason it takes over and causes infection.

41:02I don't know if that was done or not, but nothing is 100 % safe. We have to monitor carefully. But the company that sold this product, Florababy, said we're taking it off the market. Just reacting to that incident and just better to just pull it? Yeah, well, they said it's strategic and that's not the reason. And this was a product that essentially eradicated this for the most part. Well, it was significantly preventing, Nick. The physicians in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Toronto, etc., they're going to study it and make sure that was the case, which is absolutely the way they should do it. But in general, it was.

41:39And this physician who I debated sent me an email. He said, oh, God, please not go back to the rates that we had before we used this. That would be terrible. And I said in the book, I mean, you almost had to have the case where you sue because your baby died because they weren't given probiotics. Now, that's a horrible thing to think. that sometimes that's what scares hospitals into saying, okay, we should look at it. And all we're asking for is look into it, consider it, because your alternative isn't working. And the situation now in Canada, there's a product, I think, in Australia, another one in Britain.

42:16There are countries that are using this. They're just like us, and yet we're not. So we're trying to get them into Canada. Otherwise, the babies potentially could die. What are some of the other major use cases for probiotics? Well, there's obviously the intestinal things, so diarrhea, constipation, which is kind of strange that you could have both, but irritable bowel syndrome. Inflammative bowel disease, it can help prevent, but now we've got such amazing drugs, biologics they call them, that people are probably not going to use that as a first option. They'll use the biologics. In Crohn's disease, probiotics have not prevented or been useful for Crohn's.

43:04My thing for that is it doesn't mean you don't take a probiotic just because you have Crohn's. Take the biologic, but maybe the probiotic can be useful for maybe side effects or something else or just general gut health. It's not going to change your Crohn's per se. The study's shown that you can reduce respiratory tract infection rates. We did a paper, Irene Lenoir did this paper in Canada, the US, and I think she's done one in Europe, and showed that if people took probiotics, you could significantly reduce the use of antibiotics, the time people are off work, the respiratory infections. And then it comes down to individual studies.

43:45so I don't like to kind of just say you know probiotics will solve all IBS or they'll solve all diarrhea because it's too broad a statement. If you have the right strains in the right situation the products are made well and tested properly yeah there are applications to intestinal tract there's applications to skin there's applications to oral cavity and halitosis there's applications to urogenital tract So it's different parts of the body it can affect. What are some of the longer term or more moonshot oriented use cases that you can imagine? Like forecast yourself, you know, 50, 60 years from now.

44:29How are probiotics being used in a way that you would like to see? Well, it's funny you said moonshot because I think we need to have them in space. If you're going to go to Mars, you better have some kind of organisms because you're going to get kidney stones. And if we don't prevent kidney stones, you don't want renal colic in a tiny little capsule heading to Mars. I think we should learn how to create fermented foods or probiotic enhanced foods in space. But it probably in other diseases, I can see it complementing drugs. So my colleague did a study with fecal transplant plus an anti-cancer agent.

45:10and the combination seemed to be quite helpful. And so maybe there are organisms that you want to target. What was it that helped fight the cancer? Well, it was a T cell, a special type of T cell. So then you get an organism or organisms that target those T cells, upregulate them and then help the drug fight the cancer. So I can see a complementary activity. We also will, I think, see genetic manipulation. That's a longer time frame because there's all kinds of safety issues and ethical issues. But if you know that an organism is capable of producing or blocking an agent, imagine if they blocked amyloids or prevented dementia, you'd want to take that organism.

45:53So maybe we have to manipulate it for that to happen or maybe we'll get lucky and find, in fact, there's an organism that's doing that. I see applications more targeted, manipulated, and in combination with drugs. Are there labs that are doing this work, looking at this? Is there somebody or a team at NIH, for example, who is giving this the thought and focus that you think it deserves? I think there are labs. I mean, as I said, my colleague's looking at complementing anti-cancer and he did a study of multiple sclerosis. He's looking at other important and chronic diseases. I mean, fecal transplant at the moment is very crude.

46:41And my colleague, Emma-Lanverco in Guelph, said, why don't we, instead of all these organisms and poop, why don't we just take 33 or 24 or find out the right ones? Well, the problem with doing that is you're guessing and they may not be the right ones. And then when you take poop, and that's a horrible thing to say, but these organisms are together for a reason. I used to say that when I gave a lecture to students, I said, why did you sit next to that person? Because every time I come in here, I'm sitting next to that person. Because they're a friend or because you know that they'll share their lunch with you.

47:19I mean, these things are happening in natural ways. And so the organisms are doing the same. They're in collectives. And they're there for a reason. and I've actually proposed that we do studies to find out what's the codependencies? Why are you and I always in the same room, right? So when you take 24 strains and you have to grow them separately and then essentially dry them and then put them all together, they've missed all that connection. So I think we need to somehow, or maybe it's using huge chemostats, where we grow them and they get to be with the other organisms that are complementary and then we put them in.

47:58That takes, well, takes time and chemostats. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do admit to being fascinated by fecal transplants. I can envision a future in which there are very tony salons that you would go into and you would get your very specific fecal transplant taken care of. I mean, are these capsules or are we actually inserting these through the rear end? Like, how does this work? And I understand like the complexities of it, But you also mention in your book the idea of super donors, like these people that just have the high-powered fecal matter poop that holds the power to prevent and maybe even cure disease.

48:39I think a field transplant has been terrific for C. diff. And I think that there's enough to show that there's other potential. The problem is, in my view, first of all, to find the donor. and we found that it was, we got one donor of 46, 46 people that come and say, I'm totally healthy and they weren't. And so, and then if your donor goes to Mexico on holiday and gets a GI disease, then you've lost the donor. So that's the first problem. The second problem is the donor for C. diff may not be the best one for you with chronic kidney disease. And yet we're doing those studies. We're taking that same super donor and testing them completely different disease, Multiple sclerosis has nothing to do with C.

49:23diff. And what I would like to see is, okay, let's spike the FMT. Now, you can't do that because then that becomes a drug and everything is all crazy. So I say, okay, if you can't spike the FMT, get the person to take a probiotic at the same time as FMT. I'll give you an example. Chronic kidney disease is a huge problem worldwide and we've been finding that this compound called p-cressil is a toxic compound. Now, if you have organisms in the FMT that reduce p-cressil, that's great. Maybe when you give it to chronic kidney disease patients, that's going to help them. If your FMT doesn't have that signature, why not take a probiotic that does at the same time?

50:08So that's complementing and being much more specific about the disease that you're treating. I think that's the way to go because, as I said, unless you get a big chemostat that is creating a consortium that is now well-developed and then you're putting it in, I don't think it will work very well. And how do you give it? We now give it with capsules. Our hospital, I think, is probably number one in Canada for FMT. And so we put it in these little capsules and you swallow them. Horrible thought, but yeah. There might be a little education around that to get people comfortable with that notion. Yeah, I mean, I think it's about 26 capsules.

50:49I mean, I would find that tough. But if you've got a nasty disease, you'll do anything. And they don't burst and, you know, it's a perfectly good way to do it. But that's laborious. And guess what? Who pays for it? Hospital doesn't pay for it. Grants don't pay for it. The patient doesn't pay for it. So that's a problem with the system. Again, if you're introducing these things, why shouldn't they be part of insurance plans? They're not. probiotics on. And so that, again, limits the type of people that are able to get that. It's a new category. It's not a drug. It's not a supplement. It's not a food.

51:27And we don't have regulatory bodies that are oriented with experts to understand the landscape here. So, how do you even get out of the gate if we don't even have reputable people with the right amount of experience and education to even contend with how to make good decisions around this. So in this Royal Society document, you put in recommendations and one of my recommendations, strong recommendation is that we have a completely separate institute, not the Canadian Institute for Health Research, not we have NCIRC, an Engineering Research Council, not NIH. You have a completely separate institute that starts to look at how do we apply beneficial microbes across One Health.

52:11It could be unbelievably impactful across our society. And they would be looking at things like, okay, what's the rules around FMT? Who should not get them? Who might benefit from them? And you're not going to take all the strains and isolate them and show that, you know, they'll say, oh, this has got antibiotic resistance. And by giving this FMT, you're passing that antibiotic resistance on and it could be terrible in the long run. That's not going to happen. but you have to sort of have a system that says this is an acceptable FMT and this is not. That's tough because you're looking at helping the patient today.

52:52And one of the arguments has been that, yes, you've cured my C. diff, but now you've increased my risk of cardiovascular disease because of the organisms you just gave me. We don't know that yet. How would you do that? Well, let's do some studies. and maybe that person needs a completely different FMT in 10 years' time. Or it needs a supplementation with a probiotic that reduces the risk of cardiovascular disease, you know. But all of this is microbial, right? Yeah. And if the people in charge of not only the legislation and the safety and the grant funding, if they've not got their heads around that, it's like gobbledygook.

53:32Yeah. I mean, are there enough qualified people to staff up something like that? What are the barriers to getting an institution like that up on its feet? I think there are because you would need people that are not just qualified in academic terms, but who have experienced with public health issues and who have experienced with microbiology and who are open to these things. See, the Europeans to me went completely the wrong way. When they started to adjudicate probiotics, they went to this panel that had a million things on their mandate, and they get thrown this to say, all right, go and mandate probiotics.

54:12There was maybe one person in the panel that knew anything about probiotics. I mean, that's totally ridiculous. Nowadays, I think there are young people who would love to be in this, who have modern-day skills on knowledge of science and genetics and microbiology and medicine that would drive this forward with some guidance from mentors. So I don't doubt that the people are there. I think the willpower is not there, and it's mostly because people have their head in the sand. It's such a complex field. Our human brains want to think of this in binary terms. I take this and this happens, but we live in a holistic matrix of an infinite number of permutations.

55:00it's difficult enough with a particular drug to say this drug will do this. We also have to appreciate all the downstream implications of that, not just side effects, but its impact across, you know, a multitude of physiological systems within our body, right? But when you try to have this conversation around microbes, it seems like it then goes up, you know, to a power of 10 in terms of complexity. It does. So, a couple of things to that. But I watch CNN. How many adverts come on for a drug? So it starts off, you see the person, they're sick. And then they get this new drug. And then for the next 20 seconds, it tells you all the things it could do to you, including kill you.

55:45And I'm thinking, what? You've just approved this drug, but it can kill me or give me all these awful side effects. So if we're prepared to do that and take a gamble, why are you taking the gamble? because you're hoping that the number of patients to treat is enough to benefit. And so the risk is low enough, but the benefit is high enough. So we could easily do the same with microbes. And you pick things that are the easiest to monitor, right? I mean, Clostridium difficile in a way was an easy thing because the downside is death or horrible chronic condition. And the upside is they're back to normal.

56:25and you could pick a few conditions that are not big risks because you don't want people to die from the intervention and you could test them. And this comes back again to one of my peeves about granting agencies. If you want a grant in microbiology, you really should be doing mouse work, which I think is almost a complete waste of time. People will criticize me. But why not put it into human studies? Why not pilot human studies? The more human studies we do, okay, it's a bit more expensive. But there's some conditions you could do with low risk. And then you get more information about the potential and therefore you get the chance to start to see some of the concerns.

57:08I mean, I know that critical is, oh, well, do you want to be a guinea pig? Right, scary. Yeah, it's scary. But you're taking fermented foods. How many organisms are you swallowing every day just from your saliva? Like we're taking lots of organisms every day. So as long as there's some good science behind it and we know a bit about the organisms, it's probably not going to kill you. And let's see if it helps you. It seems like if the commercial incentives were adequate enough that that would expedite all of this. So I can't help but wonder whether part of the resistance or the pumping of the brakes in this field might have something to do with it posing a threat to the pharmaceutical establishment.

57:52Is your sense that there's resistance from big pharma to explore this because it would mean inroads on their core product line? Or, you know, why not one of those large pharmaceutical companies understanding that there's something to be learned here that could be of benefit? So, I obviously met with many pharmaceutical companies when we were developing our strains. And the thing that stood out to me is that there was zero knowledge about microbes. And so, I get back to the point. They didn't understand that we are skeletons, tissues, and microbes. And so they were very comfortable with something they can chemically synthesize in a lab and show the structure and then develop it.

58:37So you have to change the people in the companies. Secondly, let's look at the price of drugs. And Americans know this better than anyone. The price is horrendous. And they always say it takes 800 million or a billion dollars to develop a drug. And therefore, we need to charge huge amounts for it. No, no. That's because you had so many failures that cost you a company. lots and lots of money. And why did you have all these failures, many of them drug failures? And the drugs that are coming out are often me too drugs. They're not huge leaps. And so unless they recognize, wait a minute, we're already wasting lots of money.

59:12Why not create a spinoff company within our company that just looks at this? And that means, understands the regulations. That means potentially going to Congress and saying, you had the Deshaies Act. We need to upgrade this. We need to change this completely because guess what? Microbes can prevent disease. But right now, you're not allowing it to happen with the system that you have. So the regular system has to change. But in terms of profit, so the company that I talked about with NEC, that company that originally sold Florababy was sold for$291 million. You don't think there's money in microbes?

59:52Of course there's money in microbes. Companies are making lots and lots of money in microbes. They're just not investing it back into research. I'm not sure pharma is worried about microbiology. I think they have been so set in their ways with chemicals that they've not made the big enough leap. It seems like it's an inevitability at some point, though. Absolutely. With the right people. Because those companies are so large and powerful and their lobbying arms basically hold sway over the regulatory landscape and the legislative landscape in Washington, D.C. and governments around the world, that if you want to change the regulatory landscape, it's almost as if you're going to have to find a way to partner with these huge companies.

1:00:37Otherwise, it's David and Goliath. Yeah, I think there's already signs that they're coming in. They're interested. It's a totally different entity to a chemical. There's all kinds of issues with it. I'm not saying that it's easy, but we need the big companies with money because the potential is huge. And as I said to you, I look at it as one health, not just humans. I mean, I had a case where a friend of mine developed this. Essentially, it's an alternative to fentanyl without any of the side effects. Amazing, right? But he can't get, he needs$200 million. And so they're looking at Saudi Arabia because there's lots of money and there's many reasons.

1:01:22But anyway, one of the things the Saudis said, oh, it might help camels. So camel racing is a big deal in Saudi Arabia. There might be different ways that you get the money. Where is the motivation? Where is the motivation? Appealing to the motivation. Yeah, and you look at horses. Most horses seem to die from colic. Imagine we haven't solved colic. How crazy is that? How many horses? Look at the Kentucky races and the money in racing in America. Huge. Why haven't we looked at microbes to solve that? And the honeybee situation is our food supply. Why the heck are we not plowing money into that?

1:02:00Well, you have looked at that. I want to hear a little bit more about that because I think that's super interesting. Yeah, so we had a big project in Africa. We essentially taught local mothers how to make probiotic yogurt using this GR1 strain. And we got some money from the Canadian government. I think it was 260 ,000 people a day were getting this. It was amazing, fantastic. And what we had done was we empowered them. We weren't landing with a plane every week. We said, here, you do it. We were going to revolutionize, I think, the value chain of food in Tanzania. And the government approved their grant, and then Canada said, oh, no, sorry, we don't have money anymore.

1:02:41You know they had money. But what did that value chain look like? Well, the value chain in a way starts with honeybees. If you don't have the food and the honeybees pollinating the food, then guess what? Your value chain can die pretty quick. And we did a study in Tanzania because I was there. I looked at the lake. So there's 40 million people living on Lake Victoria. And I knew that some people were trying to get gold out the streams and they use mercury to try and capture the gold. So I said, I bet you there's mercury in the water and in the fish. So sure enough, my student Jordan found there was these small silver fish that everyone was eating had mercury in it.

1:03:25So then we said, wait a minute. People are going down to buy these fish and they're eating them and then they're getting pregnant and they have high mercury levels in them. So what if we gave a probiotic yogurt at the same time they took the fish? would you have less uptake of the mercury? Because lactobacilla actually bind to mercury. So maybe the lactobacilla bind to it and then you poop it out. Anyway, we did a study and lo and behold, we reduced mercury and arsenic levels, right? So then I thought, so that's mercury as heavy metals. Well, what about pesticides? Because, I mean, you've probably seen in the news, isn't it China that's using paraket?

1:04:07I mean, we saw them all the time, these guys, they've got the pesticide in the backpack and they're spraying, and these are toxic chemicals. And I said, could lactobacilli or probiotic strains do something about pesticides? So, lo and behold, we said, well, we'll do a few studies. And honeybees, and I had a colleague, Graham Thompson, who's an expert. I know none about honeybees, right? So, I had the idea. And he came along, he said, well, we'll try it. And we said, right, which strains of probiotic could we use? So one of them we used because we did studies in Drosophila. Drosophila is a fruit fly.

1:04:45It mimics some of the honeybee anatomy. And in the fruit flies, we made them live longer by giving them some strains. And what the pesticide did was essentially it wrecked the immune response. So by bringing in these lactobacilli strains, we stopped that. So you no longer damaged the immune response and therefore you made them live longer. And then we had a third strain that was indigenous to the honeybee. So then we said, well, how do you deliver those strains and test them in the field? Well, it turns out in Canada, certainly, beekeepers use patties. And it's because we have winters. I don't know if they use them in New Zealand, but they use them in Canada.

1:05:28So just before winter and just after it. And it's essentially sugar. It's sort of sugar. It's like a pancake, but it's sugar. And so why don't we put the proboid strains in with it? Because then the bees will eat them. Well, we did that. Lo and behold, we got great results. So then we said, what about California? Almonds. So there's a research group at UC Davis and we said, can we do a study here? Yeah. So let's do two things. Let's test the paddy. I called it a bio paddy versus a spray. So have the organisms in a spray and then you lift the, see this is a much unknown but bees, whatever it is.

1:06:11The little spray can thing. No, but you lift the honey thing, I'm sure there's a name for it. The drawer, the screen. And you spray it with the organisms. Well, we got great results again. The point being that the honeybee populations are being decimated by pesticides and environmental toxins. And without our pollinators, the planet dies. So this is, to me, like an unbelievable breakthrough and discovery. Why is this not, you know, basically standard protocol in trying to help our bee friends? People have tried before, and unfortunately, a lot of these products, they're called probiotic, but they're dead or they're not really designed properly.

1:06:52And my PhD student, Brendan Daisley, he's now an independent scientist. And what he's doing, I think, is the right thing. Let's try and get the strains that we think are the best strains. So we've shown the concept definitely works. There's varial mites, the little mites that come and attach to the bee, as well as this Pina bacillus. It's a pathogenic organism. So we can counter them, but are these the best strains? So he's currently working on a few other strains. But then my hope is that what you do is you dry them, freeze dry them, put them in a little sachet, which is what we developed for Africa, for the mammoths.

1:07:29because these mammoths, it's 50 cents for a sachet. They put it in 100 liters of milk and they can make 100 liters of yogurt, right? So why not let the beekeepers have these old sachets? They can put it in their paddy or they can put it in with liquid and spray it on, whichever we think is best. And the potential is fantastic. You know, again, I go back to what we did with our probiotic strains. I want to be sure the thing works before you start rushing to commercialization. But I think it has a lot of potential.

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1:09:43It strikes me as just one of many use cases that could be deployed to redress all manner of environmental degradation. I'm thinking about coral reef decline. I'm thinking about algal blooms in the Mississippi Delta, et cetera. Is there logic in looking at those problems from a different angle and trying to see if there's some way of approaching them from a microbial perspective as a solution? I think the answer is definitely yes. Now, there will be critics, and I think it's fair, concerned, say we're not trying to replace the organisms that are beneficial in those environments. because probiotics don't colonize bees.

1:10:33They don't colonize humans. They don't stay. So what we're trying to do is - They don't colonize our gut either. No. And so what you're trying to do is get the niche back to normal and then you don't need the probiotic anymore, right? But in the meantime, you do need it. So you have to apply it. Now, Raquel Piaxoto, and she's from Saudi Arabia, but she's done some neat work with coral, which I could not have imagined would be possible. She's sowing it is possible. So if it's possible in coral, for goodness sake, Imagine what else is possible. And the amount, as I go back to earlier, the amount of toxins that are in our water supply.

1:11:10So I have a slide that a Dutch group looked at, the number of drugs in our water supply. I think in Canada, it's something like 100. Now, there's trace elements. So let's go back to the drug companies and say, wait a minute, I'm going to bring out, Okay, say it's Viagra. This is my Viagra. And you know what's going to happen? Your lawyer is going to come to me right away and say, no, no, no, no. We've got the patent on this. You can't bring that out. Oh, so you own the drug? You own Viagra? Okay. So you own it. It's in our waste disposal system. It's in our water supply. It's your responsibility to take it out.

1:11:52Now, imagine if we did that with every drug. We would get them to say, okay, let's trace what you're doing with these drugs and find ways to degrade them, probably using microbes. I mean, it's a bit simplistic and it'll never happen, but it gets back to lateral thinking and finding ways to use these microbes. It seems like there should be an X prize in this category. You know what the X prize is? To motivate scientists like yourself and, you know, basically provide them with the incentive and perhaps the funding and the grant money to look at this to solve our biggest, most existential problems that we face?

1:12:35I mean, people have looked at microbes to degrade oil slicks. So it's not like this is something new. There are microbial ecologists out there. I don't think we've encouraged enough kids to go into that as a career path. I don't think we've encouraged enough new ideas to get grant money to explore it. And I don't think we have partnered with all the players. And that includes regulators because we have to be sure it's safe. I mean, you should never undercut safety. And we have to ensure that it works. And so all of that takes a team. We've never created these teams. We're all in little silos. and the government and then the regulators and the scientists and then the drug companies or other companies.

1:13:26It's slowly happening. So it's funny, I have a pond and I get lots of these plants grow up in the pond that I really don't want. Well, there's a company in Calgary that sells a product of bacteria that degrades nutrients for these plants. and so you can clear your pond using microbes. I mean, I think people are getting there with the idea of using microbes rather than a toxic chemical that you dump in the pond and it kills everything. When we think of so many of the gut disorders like ulcerative colitis, et cetera, these autoimmune diseases, my understanding is that there is a relationship between those or the rise of those and over-prescription of antibiotics.

1:14:21What are your thoughts on the role that antibiotics has played in terms of dysregulating our microbial ecology in our bodies? Yeah, so I do think there's a correlation. And if you look at babies, the number of antibiotics that babies, especially for earaches, etc. So we're putting a lot of antibiotics into young kids. that I think is not particularly helpful. And in fact, there's studies that say if you've had X number of antibiotics or something like, I don't know, 15, 20 antibiotics, then this will have an impact in your life after 50. I mean, I... There is something about the static nature of the microbiome after a certain age, right?

1:15:06Like the microbiome that you're developing as an infant is kind of the microbiome that you're going to be living with. Yeah, but if you've disrupted that, then there's maybe ones you're living with that shouldn't be there or you don't want them there. They remain persistent. So I think there's that, but I think there's also the food chain. I remember living in Scotland and August, we used to go to this place called Diole of Cumbria and I loved August because I could buy pieces of melon, canary melon. And we did a study in Tanzania with a group of people and looked at the hunter-gatherers and that's what they do.

1:15:44They eat seasonally. Well, now I get canary melon every single day of the year. And so we have globalized our food supply and we have unfortunately used a lot of processing and processed foods and fructose, corn syrup, etc. that I think is also contributing. So I don't think antibiotics get the whole blame. I think the food system needs a real change and you're slowly starting to see that happen where you would know more about this than me, but where people are bringing out not just organic foods, but things that are benefiting our microbes. I would like to see more of that because, and I think we also need to make it affordable because a guy in London, Ontario did this study of this school in London that was in the poorest area and it had 43 fast food restaurants around it.

1:16:38So what are these kids eating? Yeah, they're eating fast foods. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge problem. Food deserts, the most impoverished neighborhoods are the ones with the least access to healthy food. And every microbiome gut health clinician that I've hosted on this show, Tim Spector, Dr. Robin Shuttkan, Will Bulsiewicz, Dr. Will, they all agree that from a dietary perspective, the key thing is increasing the diversity of plants in your diet and in turn, obviously, increasing the amount of fiber that everybody is eating. Yeah. But also, we could make it simpler for people to make their own fermented food.

1:17:18You can make your own yogurt, but we could make it a bit more attractive, a bit more easy to do, where essentially you could have a little fermenter in your house and you get all the yogurt. I mean, yogurt is a simple thing. It's easy to do. But I fear that we're not making it practical and easy. I mean, I did a cooking class in school. I don't know if they still do that for all kids, but I think that's a great thing. Why don't we teach kids? Because often parents are, often it's a single mother and they have kids and she's working two jobs and she just doesn't have the time for cooking elaborate meals.

1:17:57But maybe there are ways that systems could help her, as I said, fermented yogurt. That's a whole other societal thing, but it's back to the same philosophy. How do we get beneficial microbes into our systems? One of the questions I've always had that I'm not sure I've ever gotten a sufficient answer that satisfied me is when we go to the market and we're purchasing that yogurt or that kombucha and we're doing it because we know these have probiotics in them and they're supposed to be good for us. How do we know that those probiotics are even active live samples? Like if a kombucha has been pasteurized or even flash pasteurized, do those microbes survive that?

1:18:47Like, have you tested various brands of kombucha? Like, what are we actually drinking? So first of all, fermented foods are not probiotic. So kombucha does not have probiotics in it. That might sound strange, but in order for it to say it has probiotics in it, it would have to say what the strain is and what viable count that strain has and why it's in that. So it might have a lactobacilli in it, but that's not a probiotic. So there's a difference between fermented foods and probiotics. If it's been pasteurized, it's really all the organisms are dead. So in killing those organisms, have they kept the supernatant?

1:19:28And is that of value? Have people studied that? They probably have. I don't know that literature. But I would take kombucha with live organisms in it way ahead of those that are dead. And I've seen London, Ontario has a company, Butch, and they had trouble getting their product on the shelf because there was an American product that was cheaper, easier to get, and the organisms were dead. So I don't think there's been enough studies to say that. The viable count at end of shelf life should be known for yogurts. It should be on all the labels of supplements. But then if you have 24 strains, ideally it should say end of shelf life for each strain and it doesn't.

1:20:15So on a very practical level, if someone's going to the market and they're picking up a product, a kombucha, a yogurt, you know, what have you. And they're looking at the nutrition facts panel label. What do they want to see? So I would say in a fermented food, look at the viable count at the end of shelf life. That should be helpful. It's not ideal because it doesn't break down all the organisms that are in it. What are some of the other common foods that someone would pick up at the market for gut health purposes? with this idea that they contain strains or probiotics. Well, one of the problems I see is in prebiotics because prebiotics are now a big thing on labels and it seems like every product's got a prebiotic in it.

1:21:04I think there's even one in Avena's skin. I don't know what that prebiotic does. The thing about that is if you take a prebiotic, in general, you need about five grams because the definition of prebiotic requires that it stimulates beneficial microbes to confer health benefits. If you take two nanograms, that's not a prebiotic. Even if it's called inulin, it's not a prebiotic because it's not going to do anything, right? And unfortunately, lots of products on the market have these prebiotics. So I would look at the amount. If you've got five grams in that product, then you can expect that that's going to stimulate the beneficial microbes in your gut.

1:21:45We mentioned earlier the colonization issue. There's this idea that if we take this periodically, we should be okay. But what is the truth behind what happens when these microbes enter our intestinal tract? Are they taking root? Do they have to be replenished consistently forever? How does that work? Yeah. So, organisms that are resistant to bile and stomach acid, That's a plus. So more of them will get through to the small intestine and the large intestine. Not all organisms are resistant to stomach acid and bile. There may be a capsule or a product that gets them past the stomach, in which case you want to know that that exists.

1:22:31They're then going to multiply. They will produce byproducts and they'll probably leave. there's not a lot of studies showing that organisms stay around a long time and that's probably because the body has got its own normal microbes and it doesn't really want new ones to come in. I still find that a little bit puzzling because I would have thought that some of these probiotics would have the potential to become part of the consortium but that we need more studies to find that out. So they're going to pass through. I understand the application of probiotics for preventing or perhaps even treating an acute condition.

1:23:22We've talked about UTIs or various gut dysbiosis issues. But what about the healthy person who just is trying to optimize their health? Like you go, even if you find a great probiotic, it doesn't necessarily mean that you feel any different. What is the argument that somebody who's had all their blood work done, everything's great, they're not at risk for anything, they feel fine, but they're just trying to be as healthy as they possibly can be? Yeah, it's a really tough question and you probably get different answers even from people in the probiotic field. my feeling is I think I'm healthy but how much do I really know that I'm healthy and if I give the example of p-cressol if for some reason the p-cressol levels are high in my body no one is detecting that but that's not a good thing so would I not like to be taking a probiotic that reduces p-cressol even though I feel absolutely nothing no difference so I like to take probiotics that I feel the organisms have been tested and they do something.

1:24:33Even though I don't maybe feel it, maybe I don't even need them. But if I look at what's the alternative to not taking beneficial microbes, because I'm pooping them out every day. So how much am I getting in? And I just like the concept of consuming more because I think in general it's a good thing. Have I proof? No. Can I tell you I feel better? I could tell you that I'd probably be more constipated if I didn't take probiotics and oats, but that's about all I can tell you. Is there a way for the average person to test the quality of their microbes in their gut to know if something is amiss? Well, there's companies that do this.

1:25:18Honestly, I'm not a fan of it. So this student and I, we took a poop, each of our poop. we did a microbial analysis and it comes out with patterns of the microbes that we have I actually got it with me, I could hold it up and I would say to you, okay, who's the healthy one? I don't know who knows which one is me and which one is him and when you see these companies they then write back to the donor and say, okay, here's what you should take and I looked at them, things like pomegranate well, okay, I take pomegranate anyway pomegranate's great Like they're not really telling me scientifically how to manipulate so that I get more of this.

1:26:01Now, there might be exceptions. For example, Akkermansia. Akkermansia is kind of a new probiotic. And my colleague, Jeremy Burton, did this study where acetate seems to be important for Akkermansia. So maybe in some patients that you want Akkermansia, maybe we should eat acetate, right? So maybe if there was direct correlation between the organisms in your stool and a food that you should take and then an outcome, so again, I go back to p.cressol. If I could take something that would reduce my p.cressol levels, I'm probably helping my kidneys. But we're not there yet. I think that's going to take a bit more work.

1:26:45I wouldn't send my poop off to get analyzed and then for somebody to tell me if I'm healthy or not. I don't think we know. Everybody's just different anyway. There's been many studies in this field. You have authored 600 papers, right? I don't even know how anybody could write that many papers. You've been cited over 57 ,000 times, I think. But still, there are so many questions that remain unanswered. What is the study that you would most like to see done that could help resolve some of the question marks that are out there. You know, what do we need to understand to help us move forward and kind of open the door to the new possibilities that this world might have to offer us?

1:27:34Potentially, there's so many different answers to that because it depends on the niche you're looking at. I mean, you mentioned algal blooms. Imagine if you could use microbes that solve that. That would be absolutely spectacular. the seas off the coast of China are absolutely polluted. And I was in a city there and they brought this fish on the table. It looked absolutely beautiful. And I'm like, I'm not eating this fish. I came from the most polluted waters in the world. Imagine if you could somehow clean them up with microbes. So, I mean, that's a huge type of experiment that would change lots, right?

1:28:09You almost need the Otago study, which is a study that has followed, I think it's a thousand people, over the lifespan. And that's, again, a long-term project where you looked at the fermented foods they consume, their microbiome patterns over time, correlating with food and with the intake of, say, probiotics, prebiotics. That would be very cool to get a handle on it. Massive undertaking. They have started to look at microbiome in that Otago study because it started in the 70s maybe. So the technology didn't come until later. In terms of a disease and the ultimate trial, I mean, that's a tough one because there are some diseases that you're not going to get better from.

1:29:00and if you could have something that extended quality life, that again would be phenomenal. I can't off the top of my head say this is the one I'd pick, glioblastoma, pancreatic cancer. I mean there's some diseases that we just hope we never get but if we could design studies to see if microbiome had any role whatsoever, then I think that would be informative. I feel like this is another situation that technology is going to be very helpful with. And I'm recalling something Tim Spector shared about the Zoe platform. And now all these people are on this app, right? And they're providing data. So they're getting these massive data sets that relate to the microbiome in a historic like unprecedented way.

1:29:49So the more things like that that we have, and then the greater computing power that we have to analyze that data and make sense of it feels like a path towards figuring out the relationship between the right microbes, the right strains, and the right deployment of them. Yeah, I agree. You talked about the next step, that there always seems to be another question, but that's science. That's the excitement of science. And the young people that are coming through are incredible. They're smart as hell. And they're going to come up with things that I can't even imagine. I just want to make sure that we are not scared to try things.

1:30:28And that might mean pilot studies. It might mean testing a strain, even if it doesn't work. I think if you wait for the ultimate, you know, the magic probe audit, you're going to wait 10, 15 years. In the meantime, all these people have died or suffered terribly. And so I hope that we have a mechanism to be much more interventional in humans with ideas. So collect all the data you want, but don't wait for eternity to try things. I was very moved in your book with respect to the way in which you've kind of weathered resistance. I mean, there's a lot of people, especially early in your career, who would just castigate you, snake oil salesmen, like the whole thing, right?

1:31:13So you're very much also this example of resilience and endurance in the face of obstacles to kind of get this message out and share the science that you were learning. So, what is your message to the visionaries out there who are trying to do something different that contravenes kind of current protocols or the way that the world works? Yeah, I mean, I was told in primary school, high school, university, I wouldn't make it. And I invented the middle finger, which is I should get much more credit for that. Not only did he define probiotics, he invented the middle finger. Yeah, and so I was the type of person that would fight back.

1:32:03It partly came from so much determination. Maybe that was in my family that taught me that, never give up. If you're not that kind of person, then it gets very difficult. You need to be beside someone who has that determination. As I said, I think you need to keep testing along the way. I mean, we never set out on day one to say we're going to make a probiotic for women's health. We were going step by step and step. I think that you have to try and break it down into steps. Like we were pioneers, but we're not entrepreneurs. I didn't go and form a company. That's not my strength. I wasn't interested in it.

1:32:37I get probably a lot of people slag me off, think, well, he's not a real scientist because he worked with surgeons and he's not a great molecular biologist. I know what I'm not good at, but I make sure that I collaborate with good people who are good at that. So you have to complement what it is you have with what other people have in order to answer the question that's in front of you. And that way you get inspired by your colleagues and that sort of picks you up when you're down because they're saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, we believe in this and look what this showed. If you don't have that reminder or that inspiration from others, it's very tough.

1:33:22Andrew Bruce, my colleague, is a wonderful person. He's positive and he's a fighter. So that was easy for me to fight with him. Oh, so many times you should have given up or I would have given up, So young people have to believe in what they're doing, test it. And if it gets to the point where they say, well, you know what? This isn't going to work. Then they have to have the courage to say, okay, it's not going to work. We're doing something else. You are a change agent. What are the lessons that you can impart about how you go through difficult times and continue to persevere? Just generally, it doesn't even have to have anything to do with probiotics.

1:34:01Your journey is very much one of staying in the game and basically maintaining this conviction, having faith, working hard. There is this spiritual layer as well where you have this sense that you are being taken care of, which I love and I appreciate and relate to. Yeah, I'm getting to the stage where you have to, you see these adverts on television about, come and plan your funeral with us. And there's a song that, I forgot the lady that sang it. He's always been faithful to me. And whatever we call God, whatever it is, God's always been faithful to me. I think you have to look for signs that you're on the right path.

1:34:45Sometimes that's not easy and it's not obvious. But I've tried to do that. When the days are tough, I remember if I'd really, you know, people get at you and stuff, I'd go and buy like three records, you know, LPs, right? That was my sort of thing. Do something positive for yourself because otherwise you'll be down all weekend or whatever. And I've always wanted to help people. And so that's a good thing to drive you on. And I remember because Dr. Bruce, the urologist, he'd be in the operating room and I would go in the operating room with him to talk about research because he didn't have time.

1:35:18Otherwise, you know, so I'd dress up, go in and the patient's there. and you think, this is who I'm trying to help. It's a person. It's not a scientific experiment. It's a person. Once you get that, you're more determined. And it's like people who are passionate about honeybees, they love those bees and they're passionate. They want to help them. And so I think if you have that as a driving force, it's amazing what can't stop you, right? You're a humanitarian. I think it's fair to say. at the end of the book, there are all these sort of tales of travels that you've gone on. And my first reaction when I got to that point was like, what does this have to do with anything?

1:36:03Like, why is he telling these stories? But I think what's instructive about it is that those travels and those experiences in so many communities, in so many places of the world that most people don't visit has given you that sense of being a humanitarian, and a level of empathy that comes with that type of travel that has made its way into your work. It feels like that's the real why behind what you do. Like, I get the sense that you really deeply care about people and the planet. I do. Yeah, I mean, you go to Mwanza, Tanzania. I took my daughter when she was 14 and she remembers the roads. I mean, you're banging your head off the ceiling and it's, I mean, terrible.

1:36:50These women dressed well and smiled every day and they had nothing. If that doesn't impact you, then nothing will. And so I have a huge admiration for people. You go to India, India, the women are beautiful in the sarongs. They have nothing. And so it makes you want to help other people and makes you think you're not any better than anyone else. and I like the surgical table example. If you're a surgeon, the person on that table, you're not looking at their color, their religion, their sexual orientation. You're looking at them because they have the same blood as you. And the more the world starts to realize that we're all the same and we're all on this amazing planet, the more we should be trying to help the planet and help each other.

1:37:39And so, yeah, that definitely drives me. You know, I've got some examples of meeting rock stars in my book. At the end of the day, that's just a normal person like you and I. It's actually quite funny and sweet. Here's where I met Frank Zappa and here's where I met Diana Ross. I was like, what does this have to do with anything? But I was very charmed by it. Well, the thing was that Diana Ross was because I was at a conference in urology. And so it was the science that took me there. And then I'm of the opinion that let's do something really fun or creative because, I mean, science can be pretty boring and tedious.

1:38:15Life isn't. So they make the most of life. When I went to Victoria Falls, I'd given a talk in Zambia. I thought, well, Victoria Falls is right there. Why don't we go and, you know? And so I went to the devil's pool and it was crazy. But that was part of that whole experience which started off as science, right? And then you learn, you look, and you see other people and how they live, and you start to get ideas of, you know, different things. And for example, I didn't know anything about the Muslim religion and prayers and things like that. And a woman from Egypt asked if she could come to my lab.

1:38:54I said, sure, you come as a fellow. So she came in the lab. And it turns out that before her Muslim prayers, they would clean their teeth. I didn't know this. and she said that we use this thing called meswac and it's the bark of a tree to clean our teeth. So I said, I wonder if we could design a probiotic mouthwash using meswac. So sure enough, we got the meswac, we got some mint, we got lactobacilli and we made a mouthwash. And I learned so much, not just about her and the practices, but hey, maybe this could be an inexpensive way for people to have better oral care in these countries. So you just never know what's around the corner.

1:39:37I've always been open to things. And I think we have to be. Yeah, following your interest and your curiosity from being a PhD student in New Zealand, getting obsessed with microbes and leading you all the way to all the adventures that you've been on by staying true to that. I think there's some real wisdom and truth in that. Well, being true to yourself, As I said in the book, Margaret Bruce always said, be true to yourself. That's tough, but I like to do that. Speaking of truth and wisdom, I have a litmus test to discern real scientists from the naysayers or the real scientists from the costume scientists.

1:40:18And that is when I present a question to a real scientist. It's never quite the satisfying answer that you want because it's complicated. and it's nuanced and it's about, you know, context and all of these different things that is orthogonal to kind of the way our media culture and our culture in general operates. So I'm interested in, and you talk about this in the book, like truth versus the misinformation that gets propagated on social media and through the clickbaity headlines in the media in terms of science reporting. That's a whole podcast. Yeah, I mean, we're driven to be successful. There's pressure on scientists to be successful and to get the messages out.

1:41:06I think sometimes the press releases are completely overblown and then the media picks it up because it's an easy sell. Robotics are useless. No, they're not. Robotics are many things. It's like saying all drugs are useless. We have to try and avoid that, just the same as we have to avoid probiotics will cure this and this and this. No, no, certain strains will. Probably as scientists were learning, when I really, 1990 to 95, it was tough to get a scientist to talk to the media. I think now social media is making it easier and probably forcing a lot more interaction with the media. And we just have to make sure that what we're saying is factual and can be backed up by the experiments we perform.

1:41:56and try not to have the sensationalization. It's like, I'm not going to sit here and tell you what probiotic you should take. Now, that might be an easy sell because then you can go out and say, buy this product. No, no, no, that's not going to happen because it's different things for different people and different reasons for it, right? There's something that goes on psychologically in our reptilian brain when we look at our phone and somebody's looking directly at us with great conviction and saying, don't do this and do this, that we just can't help but respond to versus someone like yourself who's like, well, you know, is it this or is it this?

1:42:36And I'm not quite sure until I understand this. And we're just, we get flummoxed and we're like, well, that guy isn't, you know, like he's not guiding me. So I'm just gonna, this guy seems sure of himself. This is the way our culture operates for better or worse. And I don't know what the antidote is, But I do think that there is a place for teaching young scientists and medical students public speaking skills. Because I think just because you're into science doesn't mean that you're going to be a gifted speaker or be able to communicate very complex ideas in a way that the public can understand.

1:43:10But I think more and more there's a need for that to sort of rebut or contravene a lot of the bad ideas that seem to get traction much more easily than the harder, more truthful ideas. I like to tell audiences when I speak, don't believe me, believe the data. That's tougher because it means you have to look at the data, but I could be super convincing and that's not right if there's no data to back it up. In terms of speaking, public speaking, I think you're right. There are some people very good at it. Some people, it's just they're uncomfortable with it. But I was in a position of administration for that 1995 time and I would look at probably hundreds of grants every year, and they put a lay abstract, some of these lay abstracts.

1:44:03I always say, look, can your grandmother understand that? Because if your grandmother can't, it's not a lay abstract. We have to learn how to say things that people can understand. And I know I'm not necessarily all that great at it, because when you first ask what's a probiotic, I maybe didn't break it down into something that a grandmother could understand, because they're not going to look at a definition. but we have to try and not pull the wool over people's eyes. And I think that happens a lot. Influencers and I've seen lots and lots of books and they say probiotics are inside us. No, they're not.

1:44:38Probiotics are in fermented foods. No, they're not. And so they're trying to make it simple, but they're getting it wrong. I give credit to people. Tell them the truth. Don't try and simplify it and say it wrong. If you can't simplify it, don't say it the wrong way. They're not inside us. Well said. I wanna end this discussion with some practical advice, given the constraints and the nuances, et cetera, that make it challenging. But to provide people with perhaps a few things that they can take away in terms of thinking about probiotics, prebiotics, and what they can do to optimize their gut microbiome.

1:45:20We all know about more fiber, more diversity of plant foods, fermented foods, etc. What are a few other things that you might be able to share? So there's a couple of websites that I put in the book. Proboticchart.ca is the Canadian one and usproboticguide.com where a group of physicians and pharmacists have looked at the literature and said there are papers in human studies on these products. I think that's a good starting point for people because then if they have an issue with IBS or an issue with something else, they can look and say, okay, here's three options and I could try these three.

1:45:58Now, there's probably some products that are not in that guide, but one day they will be in the guide, but they're not right now. But that's at least a place that you're getting help without doing anything yourself. I think there are probiotics that, as I say, I take them every day and so I think that there's a reason to take them. But if you're not taking them and you're taking fermented foods, that's great too. These are not magic bullets. There's lots and lots we still need to find out about them. But it should be part of our daily life, I think, to enhance our beneficial microbes. Because as I say, how else are you getting them in your body?

1:46:39What is the role that you play as scientific advisor to seed? What does that entail? Well, because I joined early on, it was to advise primarily Raja on the attributes of the organisms and to start to look at what they might do. And that's led to some experiments in our lab. It's led to them bringing on board some super, super scientists from Boston who are now leading the primarily clinical trials. Because at the end of the day, you need to do the human studies. And so they're going to do that. We've got papers coming out, a fantastic paper that's coming out and it's frustrating waiting for it, but so I can review it and advise and help the people writing it.

1:47:25I had offers to sort of do this with other companies. They're just so talented and they look at life differently. I've never seen a company do what they do. And so many creative people, it's a joy to be part of it. and if I contribute a little bit, then that's great. But I also criticize. I mean, if I see something that I don't like, I'll tell them and Raja welcomes it because there's no room for bullshit. No, there isn't. And I get the sense that, yeah, he wants that. That's sort of why you're there. And as a lay person, I was just so impressed with both of them and speaking to them on the podcast and the more that I learn about what they're attempting to do in a world that is so complex and challenging.

1:48:16I'm betting on them. Like, they're the good ones, in my opinion. And as I said earlier, I've interacted with many, many companies. It's nothing like what they're doing. They are light years ahead of the messaging. I mean, the Instagram accounts are on information. It's not pushing the product, it's information. I think that's the way of the future. I think these big companies could learn from that. Yeah, I agree. I'm really proud to be associated with them. That's great to hear. That makes me even feel even better. Yeah, I mean, I went yesterday and saw Aaron. Some of the creative people in that firm, it stimulates me.

1:48:58I'm a great admirer of people who are good at what they do. And I love to learn from them. I mean, someone designing something, I want to know more about it. almost want to be part of it because it's so exciting and I'm not a designer. So I'm loving watching them and also learning from them. So it's a stimulating environment. I think microbes are our teachers and I think we have much to learn from them. We've only begun to flirt on a very surface level with what I think they can teach us. And you're certainly at the vanguard of making that possible. So I appreciate the work that you've done and the message that you carry and for coming and sharing with all of us today.

1:49:39Well, honored to be here. But, you know, the message really is for the young people, the next generation. They've got the talent and the ability and the technologies. They're the ones that are going to make an amazing difference. And if we have laid some groundwork for that, then that's fantastic. But it's over to them. And I think the future is going to be exciting. Hear, hear. I think we did it. Did we leave anything out? I don't think so. I think we covered it. The book is called Probiotics, A Story About Hope. Gregor, thank you again for your time. It was wonderful to meet you. It's a true honor.

1:50:11And again, I appreciate you. Thank you. Cheers. Peace. Plants. Microbes.

1:50:30That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

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1:52:23Thank you.