The King of Moab: Ultrarunner Max Jolliffe On Winning Moab 240, Recovery From Heroin Addiction & Why Suffering Is His Greatest Teacher

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32:47It's an interesting kind of conundrum when you know you need to change. You know it's inevitable that at some point you're gonna have to like, you know, give up this thing and start doing something else. But that's not enough to get you to do it. There is something very specific about pain and suffering that gives birth to the willingness. It's all about willingness. It's like, you know what you need to do, right? But are you willing? And until you're willing, you're not going to make that choice and you're going to continue to slide and your life's going to get worse until you reach that point where enough's enough, as we say, you reach that point in jail.

33:28But willingness is such a fickle kind of energy. Like you can't, you can't will somebody to be willing and you can't just decide to be willing. It's almost like this weird thing that, that descends down on you when you're in enough pain and gives you this burst of energy that you didn't have five minutes prior to finally do that different thing. And I think for me, I was just like quite literally like beaten into a state of willingness. Like I share about this in meetings all the time. Uh, the, you know, weeks and months leading up to the day that I got sober, like truly every single day felt like the worst day of my life.

34:04it was like groundhog's day on repeat of just like just the worst day ever and um yeah when you know the cops showed up in my door you know like they always do when you're on probation they just show up at any given time and they showed up one morning and I was like this like this is it this is my one opportunity like I know they're taking me to jail so like I'm just this might be my only shot to get sober. So I was, you know, quite literally beaten into a state of willingness and reasonableness. And, uh, I, you know, had a moment of clarity where I saw that like, Hey, this might be, you know, where the stars align and I might only have this small window of opportunity to like actually get sober and stay sober.

34:47These fleeting moments. Cause you know, if you don't act in that moment, it will pass and you'll be back to your bullshit, And I think for people that don't really understand addiction, they struggle with this idea of like, well, clearly, you're going down the wrong path here. Look at your dad. There's the blueprint. This is where you're headed. How come you can't just make this different choice? you know, but you're stuck in this cycle of, you know, compulsion and, you know, craving and reward that is so cunning, baffling and powerful. It's near impossible. It's, you know, when people take hits at AA and 12 step all the time, like, oh, it doesn't really work.

35:29The sobriety rate is very low and all of that. And they don't, they miss the fact that like, you know, when somebody relapses or goes out, it's like, oh my God, somebody drags. Like, no, what the miracle is that like, all these other people didn't drink today. You know, it's so pernicious and challenging to overcome. And it requires those moments of clarity where willingness descends and you realize you have this brief moment of time to like make that different decision and set something in motion that's gonna move your life in a new direction. And then through working those steps, you know, you end up developing a relationship with God and, you know, getting, I mean, the by-product is like, I've just like been gifted this like super amazing life now that I like never thought would have ever been possible.

36:19It was just, it looked like scorched earth just all around me. Yeah, it's pretty crazy, the arc. And so that was 2012, right? Yeah, I got sober April 6th of 2012. So I'll have 14 years on April 6th, yeah. That's amazing. And like, yeah, I just like, I can't really take any credit for it. It's all like what God has done for me and the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and like all the people around me. Like I could go on and name a hundred different people that like have done so much for me in my life. But I just like, I just like quite literally like grew up in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

36:55And like finally for the first time had like real men around me who were like solid role models and like learned valuable life skills and how to live a life. Like I, I had no skills of any kind. I wasn't good at anything. I had nothing going for me. And, um, all I do is like show up to these meetings and like, listen to people talk and like get my hand held as I figure out how to be a normal human being, you know? Yeah. And you had no solid, stable male, uh, role model in your life up until then. I mean, it's like so weird. Like my dad was, he's like been around my whole life, but not really ever super present.

37:34And like, I really don't feel like I even know the guy. I mean, especially in the last, you know, seven or eight years that we've been estranged. Like I haven't spoken to him in many, many years. And yeah, he's, you know, chosen a life that I can't be a part of, you know, that involves drugs and alcohol and crime and mental institutions and jails and hospitals and a life that doesn't involve his family, which, you know, is fine. that's it is what it is and as much as it hurts it uh i don't know it's tough yeah yeah are you able to find some level of compassion because he's the you know he's the alcoholic who's out there you know sick yeah totally and like i i don't i don't ever like harbor any resentment or anger towards him.

38:30I mean, obviously, you know, it's like, that does no one any good is like the resentment is only killing me, but like, yeah, I just like genuinely like feel sorry for people who are just like suffering and just cannot get it. Cause I've, I've been there. I like, I've so badly wanted to just stop getting high and stop drinking and stop using, but just not being able to like for the life of me. So, um, yeah, I just, you know, I just really feel for, um, him and I still do love him, but I just have to separate myself and like for my own, um, mental health and sanity. It's just like, I've, I've done this dance over and over where, you know, I let him back in and give him an inch and he takes a mile and just it chaos ensues.

39:17And it's just, yeah, it's, uh, it's just really complicated and messy, you know? So you're this skater kid basically, right? Like I'm trying to imagine, you know, you in high school, uh, like, like punk rock, like, what are you listening to? Like, who are your influences? Like, what are you thinking about? And then let's like lead it up into like how you get introduced to running. I think I was just, I mean, super into skating and surfing was always like my two loves. I'm like decent at both, never good enough to be, never good enough to end up being on the surf team or skating in contests or anything.

40:00But just always really loved, you know, both surf and skate culture. And, you know, growing up in Orange County, Costa Mesa, like all of the big brands are there, like Volcom, Quicksilver, Ruka, Hurley, like you name it. That's kind of where surf and skate mecca was. So, you know, being a kid, I just like loved going to the skate park and loved going to the beach and surfing. And that was like kind of my whole life and idolizing dudes like Andy Irons and Kelly and skaters, like all of the Baker guys and Tony Hawk. I mean, I, dude, I was just, my friend sent me an old photo of me and a bunch of us little Groms as kids.

40:41And I'm like in every single photo, I'm wearing like a Tony Hawk shirt and like old Volcom shirts, which is funny. But that was just like me. I just, I just was a little skate surfer at. um and what was the vision like do you had did you have an idea of what you wanted your life to be or were you thinking about like what you might want to do not really i mean i don't know i think there was just so much going moment i think there was so much going on at home that i like really didn't have an opportunity to envision a life for myself um and like i remember being like a little kid like i mean young like almost a toddler and like wanting to be a trash man just because i saw the trash.

41:20Right. When you're in high school and things are going sideways, it's like, Hey man, like I don't, you know, I'm not really seeing like a path for myself. So I'm just going to enjoy. I mean, I got good grades in school and I just like knew I was never going to make it to college. Like there was just no way that I was going to be able to financially be able to afford or pull it off or even just like apply for a loan or a scholarship. Like I just like, that was, it was never even like in the cards for me. I was just like quite literally trying to survive. Like I was, you know, homeless in high school.

41:51So I knew that it, yeah, I was just like trying to survive, just barely making it, you know? So you're plugged into meetings post 2012, you're dialed, you're starting to put the, you know, pieces back together and figure your life out. I get a job at a surf company. Yeah, no, I worked it early for - Until like this past year, right? Yeah, up until just last year, November, left. I was there for almost 15 years, but yeah, just started off at the company, sweeping floors and cleaning screens, like t-shirt printing screens and doing artwork with a friend of mine and, you know, weird little marketing activations.

42:34But yeah, it was just like, kind of like a hang around Grom and worked my way up through the company going from, you know, just a 1099 freelance contractor just contracted help to getting brought on to the graphic design team and then designing t-shirts and board short prints for a couple years and you know acquiring more skills and hunting my craft and then becoming an apparel designer for multiple years after that like i you know at the beginning when i first got brought on like i was a nike employee at the time hurley was a uh that surf category for the nike organization so was you know affiliated with nike But this is like your college for learning how to be an effective storyteller and kind of public facing content creator.

43:18And it was cool being part of such a big, well-oiled corporate machine. I saw the inner workings of how focused Hurley and the Nike organization was on brand and storytelling. And we'd have these big town hall meetings where it felt almost like a broken record on repeat. It was like storytelling, storytelling, storytelling. and um yeah just like getting to work with like john florence you know um he was you know a huge part of the brand and i'm still super tight with uh a lot of the the hurley family that's uh gone on and started florence marine x john's company um so yeah just being really plugged in with very talented and creative people and um just kind of being brought up and learning from the people around me, but it never been like a quote unquote, like a athlete, like an athlete, as we understand an athlete, like in high school, you can play sports or anything like that.

44:14No, I played, I played water polo for like the first two years of high school and was like on the swim team. Is that required when you live in Newport? I mean, I just like, I always kind of like loved the water and like, wasn't good enough to make it on the surf team. So like, what's the only other water sport that you can do? It's like water polo and swimming. And I was just like really small, um, in the beginning of high school, uh, and was never going to make it onto the varsity team. So my sophomore year, swim season was coming, and I was like, I don't want to go through the hell of just being on swim team during swim season.

44:47It's just so grueling and so much hard work, which is funny that I was like - That's hilarious. Avoiding hard work. So I was like, I'm just going to - And then I ended up getting recruited by the coach of the wrestling team. So I ended up wrestling my sophomore year of high school, got brought on straight to the varsity team because they didn't have a 103 pounder. So I was like the lightest weight and already was in pretty good shape just from being on the swim team. So you weren't like a total burnout in high school then? No, but I was like the worst player on the swim team and the water polo team.

45:18And then, you know, because I'm so small, I'm in this weight class where I'm like, because I have decent cardio, I was, you know, immediately put onto the varsity team and like had, I don't know, I had some wins, but mostly losses. Like I wasn't a gifted or talented athlete, but I did always have the ability to like put in the hard work. Like, yes, I wasn't like genetically gifted to like ever get big or be talented or have any skills in any sports, but I always was able to work hard, if that makes sense. Yeah. But not on the cross country team or the track and field team. No. Yeah. I didn't even ever run once until I was 25 or 26.

45:55So yeah, where is that first touch point with running? So once I got a job at Hurley, they had a skate park in one of the warehouses. They had this huge campus, like probably 10 or 15 buildings. And one of the buildings was this dedicated warehouse that was just a skate park in it. So I get a job there. I'm a couple years sober. My life's starting to get good. I'm starting to piece things together. I'm starting to do things that I had, you know, completely given up, like surfing and skate. Like I'm getting back into skating. I'm getting back into these things that I love doing. I got this nice crew of people.

46:32Like we're going to the skate park at night. Like I'm getting better. I'm, you know, progressing. And, uh, you know, when you're skating, skating is one of those sports where like you do it, like you're just bound to get injured. And, um, I ended up breaking both of my ankles like a year apart. Um, so had a couple injuries. and at the time I was living with a friend of mine who, uh, he was just like a, he was like really into the gym. He was a bodybuilder. So he was just really into the gym at the time. And I was in a boot for a while and, or a cast and then a boot for a while. And I just got like really out of shape.

47:08And at the time I was just, you know, eating junk food and smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day, just NAA, just drinking coffee, smoking cigs, like the only two vices that I have. And, uh, you know, over that year, just like got really out of shape and just felt like shit, uh, a lot. And once I started to finally be able to move around and walk again and felt like I got to the point where I could work out, my roommate at the time was like, dude, just come to the gym with me. Like it's the best investment in your health. Like, just I'll show you what to do. Just, we're going to just work out every single day.

47:44So started going to the gym with him and um that was great and i love lifting i just like wasn't really trying to be a bodybuilder like he was and i found myself going to the gym and i would just like gravitate to the cardio section and the the stair climber was actually like my entry my gateway into uh running and then ultra running but i would just like go to the gym and just do an hour on the stair climber and that was like all I would do and then after a while at that point just going being on the stairs like my ankles were still like just too messed up to be able to run at that point and then I remember one day trying to go for a run on the treadmill and then I was like oh this feels good and then I you know started running on the treadmill and then doing the the stair climber and the treadmill and then eventually I found myself just going to the gym to only run on the treadmill and I'm doing this for you know a couple weeks or a month and I'm like why do I have this gym membership I'm just going to run on the treadmill.

48:40Like I can do this outside. And then, uh, yeah, just started running outdoors. And, um, I like, I never really enjoyed or liked running, but when I finally started doing it on my own, like we always had to run for wrestling and I mean, even water polo and swimming, they would have us run and soccer and baseball and sports that I played as a kid. Running was always involved, but I just like never really thought that I liked it. And it wasn't until I started running on my own and like doing this thing that was like very easily and rapidly producing like tangible results and progress for me. I think that's when I was like, oh, this is like something that's hard.

49:27It makes me feel good. And I'm like getting these like small little wins. It was like the first time in like so long in my life where I was like, actually felt like I was starting to make progress and I was, I was winning, even though I was just like completing a five mile run. Like that was a win for me or like running a mile, uh, at eight minute pace. Like that was a win. Like those things were so hard. And, um, yeah, I just, uh, somewhere along the line, just like fell in love with running and just ran more and more. I remember I do like an hour long run and be so wrecked. I couldn't run for a week after, but just kept with it.

50:04And every time I'd run, I'd try to, you know, either run a little bit further or run a little bit faster and just continued to push myself. And at one point was like, I just did, I just ran 10 miles without stopping. Like I could probably like sign up and train for a marathon and signed up for my first marathon in 2019, OC Marathon. And the rest is kind of history. 2019 was your first marathon. Like that was not that long ago. Yeah. When did you realize that you were actually good at this? Was it that first marathon? I think it was that first marathon. I, um, after like talking with some people and I, I, dude, I knew nothing going into it.

50:47I just had heard from some people that maybe four hours is a decent time goal, which for the average person, I think four hours is a very, very good and very achievable goal. Um, and then I ran three hours and 27 minutes. Like I ran, you know, over 30 minutes faster than I was even expecting. And without knowing what you were doing. Yeah. Without knowing what I was doing. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then, you know, signing up for another marathon. I think my second one was LA marathon ran a 306. You know, it was like that kind of kept happening to me where I'd have this maybe like just too conservative goal for myself.

51:25And I would just blow my expectations out of the water. And then that carried on into, uh, you know, my third marathon, I ran, uh, two 40, two 48 or two 47 or something, Boston qualified, got like 14th or something at the race. Um, and then, you know, my first ultra, I mean, it was a super competitive, uh, ultra race, 50 K broken arrow sky race. I, I, I, it wasn't, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't that good of a performance, but I did beat all of my other friends that I was doing it with who were like fairly accomplished runners and had been, you know, running ultra races and running for a long time.

51:59And I'm like brand new in this thing. And I'm like, okay, I'm like actually surprising myself at every turn. And, um, it really wasn't until, uh, I ran my first 50 miler, which was in 2020, the end of 2022 or 2023. And I signed up for this race saddles, 50 miler. It's in Arizona. It's a satisfy sponsored race. Michael Versteeg puts it on. And I was out there just hanging out and they were like, hey, we got a bib for you if you want to run, uh, just the night before the race. And I was like, I don't really have any nutrition or electrolytes or anything, but I, you know, I got my vest and, you know, there's some like old expired gels that are like in this like Tupperware thing.

52:41I'm like, I could just pee somebody. I'll just run the race for fun. And, um, ended up jumping into the 50 miler the next morning and ended up winning, which was like, and then after that i was like okay like there might be something here and you know i'm really am starting to feel um the success um that i'm having and i was like i'm just like really gonna lean into this thing like maybe this running thing is my thing you know that i've been looking for for so long like i've i've just never really ever been good at anything and then i find this thing where I'm starting to have a little bit of success.

53:17And I'm like, maybe this is it. I'm just gonna go all in on this thing. So that was it. Like, okay, now, whether or not this is my thing almost doesn't matter. I'm deciding that it is, and I'm gonna just focus on it. Yeah, exactly. Take all of my, you know, kind of like, you know, addict obsessiveness and just like Like, apply it to this. Like, invest it in here. Yes, exactly. And do this thing that also, not for nothing, is pretty good at emotional regulation. You know what I mean? Like, when you're, you know, like that antsy kind of addict-y feeling of like not feeling comfortable in your own skin.

53:53Yes. And like, this is pretty good at managing that. And if you're training super hard during the day, it's like, I always say, it almost feels like you just have - You have to exhaust yourself. You're so exhausted. To feel okay. You almost have this like force field around you where like anything that like someone might say to you that might like irritate you or piss you off. It's just like that stuff just seems to like bounce off you. You're just like more content with life. It like almost does the same thing that like drugs and alcohol will do for you, you know? So do people, I'm sure they do, like say, oh, well, you just transferred your addiction.

54:23Like you're just, you're out of control, Max. Like you're just, you're just a dry drunk, like with all this ultra running stuff. How do you answer that? Well, I mean, for, I mean, for, you know, over 10 years, I was like super involved and plugged in with Alcoholics Anonymous and, you know, have had a sponsor and sponsees. It's not until like maybe the last couple of years where I've just I just have been blessed with this path that I just have to go down. And my time is very limited. And, you know, I'm doing so much traveling and training that I haven't been able to like make it to AA and be like super active and involved with meetings in a group in a little while.

55:00But yeah, I mean, I would totally agree. Like I take everything to the extreme and running is definitely one of those things, but at least it's, you know, a healthy outlet that's become a very fruitful part of my life and brought me so many blessings and so many friends and so many experiences that I never would have been able to experience if it wasn't for. I mean, it's certainly expanding your life aperture, not like narrowing it in the way that drugs and alcohol do. But there is also the kind of warning signs or the danger zone of making these races and this sport your higher power. Yeah. And I totally know where you're coming from.

55:40And there's something that happens with training and sometimes during races where I feel closest to God during those times. And, um, I like have a stronger relationship with God today than I ever did, um, being super involved and plugged in with AA. And I don't know if that's just, uh, a product of, you know, seeing the blessings that he's given to me in my life. But yeah, I'm, I'm very cognizant of the fact that like, I can't rely on racing and training to be my everything. I do still have to be carrying the message and being of service and surrounding myself with good people who are on like the same path as me and invested in the same lifestyle as me.

56:33And just like also on the pursuit of bettering their lives and being better people.

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59:38When you think about the tools of sobriety, how do they inform or how have they made you like a better runner? Like I'm always interested in this relationship between these two worlds, right? Like you come into this recovery community and you're introduced to all of these tools for life that are obviously going to make your life better, but are pretty applicable as an athlete and the decisions that you make about what's important and where to focus your energy and your time and how to hone your mindset and, you know, kind of push your body. I think the biggest thing is, uh, like just knowing that nothing is ever going to be as hard as getting sober.

1:00:20Um, that will forever be the hardest thing that I've ever done. And no matter what, like, no matter how hard training or how much pain I'm in during a race, like nothing is worse than kicking heroin in jail. So like just knowing that having that in the back of my mind, um, is, you know, a big kind of like motivating factor that I can, and I am able to do these really hard things. But, um, I think more so is just like, just being able to surrender to circumstances and situations that are out of your control, which a lot of ultra running is just like problem solving and dealing with these things that just pop up and are out of your control and being, um,

1:01:09being, uh, you know, able to just roll with the punches and, um, I mean, even more so just being a public figure or a person on social media. I think the tools of AA have helped me navigate this weird world that is social media and, you know, putting my story out online and just dealing with people, you know, in person. it's like it's always great there's never any issues at races like the community is amazing i've only ever had good encounters or interactions with people it's you know online where uh there's can be some resistance or uh just like weird shit that goes on with people online and i i that's where i really have to lean on the tools of aa to you know not fire back at people online and not make comments, you know, and, uh, just keep my mouth shut and, you know, take an inventory and admit when I am wrong, when I do something stupid or fire off something, you know, a comment that hurts someone's feelings, like take a step back, do a 10th step and reflect on like, okay, what is my part in this?

1:02:21Like, where was I wrong? Like, this is a human being who has real feelings and emotions. And like, I just want to keep my side of the street clean and not have someone, And, you know, with their feelings hurt because of some stupid shit that I said. So, yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, a real person. I'm, you know, am emotional. I struggle with the same things that everyone else does. I'm not perfect. But, you know, being brought up and learning from the principles of AA has helped me be able to, like, just deal with that shit and be a man, you know? Yeah. I'm glad that you mentioned surrender because I think that that's like a key piece in all of this.

1:03:00You can't get sober if you're relying on your self-will. You're going to just relapse and relapse and relapse. If you think that you're going to be able to figure it out on your own, it's only when you get to that point where you are willing to let go, let people in, and understand that you're not the center of the universe and don't have all the answers and that you're more powerless than powerful. And in the context of running ultras, you have to be in a state of surrender. There's too many variables. It's too long. The distances are so mind-boggling. You have no control over the elements or the other competitors.

1:03:40I mean, that's true in any athletics. But the only way you're going to be able to get from the starting line to, you know, 240 miles later is if you are, you know, in that state of, like, surrender. Like, okay, God, like, you know, help me get from here to there. And, like, I don't know what's going to happen. But, you know, I'm not going to be able to do it completely under my own power. And I certainly have no control over all the things that might happen along the way. And to like always remain being teachable, you know, like always trying to learn the lessons. And a lot of these races, like I'm just like, I'm learning as I'm going.

1:04:18Like I'm still very new to this thing. Even the 200 mile distances are a very new world within ultra running. So yeah, just trying to, and it's like a lot of it's uncharted territory and trying to learn from the mistakes that I made. and I've made so many mistakes. Like I really honestly haven't felt like I've had a good 200 mile race yet. Like I've won one, I've DNF'd another and had a decent podium performance at another race. But I really feel like I haven't cracked the code at that distance. I've had some - Dude, you've only been doing this a couple of years. No, right. You're still like so new.

1:04:54I mean, the idea of these 200 mile races is new. You're new to it. You're also super young. And the other people that are excelling at those distances are like 20 years older than you and have been like running for, you know, most of their lives. Sure. Yeah. But I mean, it's I think it's more so just all of us like learning together on this new thing. You know, like what's the brand new? What's the best way to handle sleep in a 200 mile race? You know, like no one's really cracked the code or figured it out. So just, yeah, me, I always try to like take valuable lessons and learn from these races and be able to apply it into future races.

1:05:35So, yeah, that's just like another principle of, you know, the program is like learn from your mistakes. Try not to do it again. Be teachable. I mean, I think when I think of the ultra world, like we forget, like it's so new, you know, the idea of this being a competitive landscape. And to the extent that people are like, well, this is how you train for a hundred and this is how you do it's like, is it, you know, like, I think like we're at the very beginning of trying to figure out, you know, what the best way to approach these kind of races are. And that's what makes people like David Roche so interesting, you know, like they're trying different things and like, who knows what's, what's gonna, you know, pan out or not, but like he's sort of approaching it like a scientist in a lab.

1:06:17And I think that's real and sharing it transparently, which I think is really cool. I have much respect to him for sharing everything publicly. It's like. And that's like at the 100 mile range. Yeah. But then you get to the, I think people equate these things like, oh, 50, 100, 200, it's all the same. Like these things are wildly, the universe is a part. And I think when it comes to like the distances that you're excelling at, like this is just the wild west right now. Yeah. I was out to dinner the other night with some friends and Molly Seidel was there. I never met her before. For people who don't know, she won the bronze medal in the Olympics in 2020.

1:06:55And she's now moving into the ultra world. And to me, that's super exciting. I think that when you start to see Olympic gold, Olympic medalists and people who are in the top, top, top of the kind of international marathon world decide to move into the ultra world, we're going to see a lot of innovation and a lot of records being broken because they're bringing kind of an elite legacy into a world that's really untapped right now. Yeah. And she, I mean, props to Molly just earning a golden ticket at I think her second ultra race ever. So she'll be in Western States, the most competitive 100 miler in the US.

1:07:42to see. Yeah. Um, super excited for her. I've, I've met her, um, before she's an amazing human being and yeah, I would love to see more of those kind of higher profile people coming into trail. I mean, it's great for the sport and, uh, trail running is booming. I mean, maybe I'm biased, but I feel like trail running and ultra running is growing at a faster rate than maybe any sport out there right now. Yeah. What do you foresee for the future near and far in the sport? Just the sport generally, not yourself in it, but like, where is this heading in terms of like, is the popularity going to continue to grow?

1:08:17Do you think like you're going to see more? I mean, it seems to me like there's going to be more money coming in. We already see what happened with UTMB, like that's going to continue. And as soon as there's more money there, more of the Molly Seidel's are going to, like, if you're on the world marathon circuit and you're coming in, you know, eighth or 10th in these races consistently, you're like, I don't know, 10 minutes off the pace or whatever, like, why not move? Like the, the ultra world is like wide open for you. Yeah. And I think, you know, as more eyes grow on the sport, you know, the brands are going to be forking over more money.

1:08:54Um, we will get some of those athletes that are crossing over and we're starting to see it. Um, so I envision the sport just growing as a whole. Um, it's really is a very accessible sport. Like you can essentially do it in so many different places in the U S and throughout the world. I mean, it's a worldwide sport. And yeah, I think also just a lot of people just really crave and have a desire to do hard things. And there's nothing more simple and challenging than just running really far. Yeah. All you need is a pair of shoes too. Paul. And now with these like, you know, these backyard ultras and all these, you know, unique formats that are popping up and people designing their own challenges.

1:09:38Like there's no barrier to entry to this. And then like how, I mean, there's, you know, the monster 300, there's a 300 mile rate. Like, what are we going to say? I mean, I've heard people, I've heard people talking about, and I mean, it does kind of exist in this whole other world of ultra running. Talking about doing 500. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, even so you can go, you can race the John Muir trail or, you know, the Pacific Crest Trail, like doing FKTs. Like that's a whole nother world of ultra running that there's almost like there's people who do that, that don't even really run races. They just are focused on setting records and setting times on like super long distance.

1:10:13I mean, an FKT can be any little route that's, you know, 20 miles up to, you know, the Pacific Crest Trail that's 3 ,000 miles, you know. The amazing thing about your story is the fact that it's such an unlikely story. Like you've been living your whole life with this like reservoir of potential you had no idea about. And, but for like a couple things that happened, you might've lived your entire life, never going to on a run or realizing that you have this capacity. And when you reflect on that, you can't help but think, well, how many, like, is this something that is like, how many millions or billions of people are walking around with capacities and capabilities that they're not aware of because they never are in a situation or presented with an opportunity to kind of do the math and, you know, like square that equation.

1:11:07Right. I think like, yeah, if you're a person who's listening or curious about ultra running or just running in general, like maybe just like, maybe just try it, you know, maybe it could end up being that thing for you. And, or like, maybe it's not even running, maybe it's playing guitar or artwork or whatever. Like, I just, I hope that people, just like find something that they're into and just pour everything that they have into it. And I think about this all the time. Like back when I was younger, I used to think it was so cool seeing people who just like effortlessly were good at things. And I think now I have so much more respect for people who actually care and people who actually try hard and people who like fail at things over and over and over and they dedicate their lives to, you know, going back to maybe a race or whatever it is.

1:12:07But like, I really like watching and hearing stories of people, um, just overcoming adversity and really trying hard. Like I thought it was so cool to like, not care or not give a fuck about anything. But like nowadays I'm like, I love people who like give a shit and like want to dedicate everything in their life to one specific pursuit like i think that is so sick and so cool when you think about your life now and reflect upon you know where you were not that long ago like it must just be mind-blowing astonishing yeah it seems like an almost an entire lifetime ago like i like i haven't had the urge or the thought of drinking or using in like a very long time.

1:12:53Like I was blessed with the gift of, um, the obsession being lifted like quite a long time ago and it's never came back. And I'm super grateful, um, for that. I think there's something that people say that every 16 years or something like all of the cells in your body, uh, quite literally are replaced. So it, I, I really do feel like it was an entire lifetime ago. And my life is so different now that, um, I, you know, every year on my sobriety date, I do a lot of reflecting and I just try not to get, not to forget what it felt like that day before I got sober. And like, that's something that I always need to remember that, um, this whole thing really is a daily reprieve.

1:13:40And if I, you know, slip up and make the mistake of putting something in my body that can cause the allergy and the craving of alcoholism, I'm right back to square one. And I don't ever want to go back there again. As much as my life is different today and I have so much to lose, I'm really one bad day away from being right back at square one, trying to get sober again. And it's so much easier to just stay sober than to try to get sober again. I don't ever want to have to do that again. What do you say to the person who looks at you and says, oh, well, you know, Max is different from me. Obviously, he's this gifted runner.

1:14:22I can see how he was able to, you know, pull himself up, you know, from his with his bootstraps and change his life and, you know, become this runner. But like, I don't I don't really see how I'm going to be able to make that change. What have you learned about just the nature of change itself or the power that we all have to make a significant life change? I mean, I felt the same exact way for a long time. There's no way that sitting in meetings, listening to people tell their stories, it's like, well, yeah, that's true for you, but I'm different. Terminally unique. I'm terminally unique. Like I, you know, what, what, what you suffer from and what you feel in your head is like, just not what I'm feeling and I'm different.

1:15:07And, um, just like, you know, I just would love to be an example. Like I'm, I'm no different than anyone. Like I'm not talented. I'm not special. I suffer from the same thing that like literally millions of other people suffer from. And, um, you know, there is a solution if you want it, um, as long as you're willing to do the work. And that's true for getting sober. That's true for, um, you know, getting good at anything like running. It's like, if you make the conscious decision that this is something I want to do or go after and achieve, and you do put in the work, uh, anything is possible. Yeah.

1:15:46That's the great thing about running. I mean, you said it earlier, like if you put in the work, you see the results and when you start seeing the results, then you feel more connected to it. And as we say in the rooms, self-esteem is built on the shoulders of performing esteemable acts. And going out and running is an esteemable act on behalf of yourself, right? You know what I mean? The more you do that, the better you feel about yourself. And then you see that progress and you want to do more. And it doesn't have to be running. It can be whatever, whatever your curiosity is fascinated by. That's almost exactly the inverse of the more I drink, the worse my life gets, the worse my life gets, the more I drink and use and do drugs.

1:16:27And the more I do drugs, the worse my life gets. So it's exactly that same thing. But you don't understand my problems, Max. And when I wake up in the morning, it's so bad that I have to drink. And then there goes the cycle around and around and around. On a mindset level, I've heard you say, you're just a never quit guy, right? How do you think about mindset and what are some of the ways that you try to, um, you know, foster a growth mindset? Yeah. The never quit mindset. I mean, that's a tough thing. I almost, uh, invested too much of like my identity into, um, being someone that's like never going to quit or going to die before I quit.

1:17:09And then when I'm finally presented with a situation during a race where I'm like, quite literally about to die, you know, at mile 238 of a 250 mile race. And I have, you know, and endless amount of problems going on with me and people around me are very scared for me in my life. Um, and I have to make that hard decision of like letting my ego go and like, okay, this race is over. I'm going to drop, I'm going to have to quit this race and I'm going straight to the hospital, which is what happened to me at Cocodona last year. Um, it's kind of like changed my perspective and, um, I've kind of let go of the, like, I'm not like invincible.

1:17:52I'm really not that tough. Like, and, you know, I'd rather, I'd rather just fight another day. You know, like we all, you know, have these situations and points within races or any part of our life where like today is just not the day. And I've experienced that. And I now look back and think like, Oh, I was a little bit naive to think that there's never going to be a situation where I'm ever going to give up. But, uh, I think for the most part, like I try not to make quitting an option. And I think that just kind of goes back to, uh, just sobriety. There was like, like drinking and I had to in my head make it like absolutely mandatory that I was never going to use again, like no matter what.

1:18:39And, um, with running, maybe I just tried to borrow that, um, philosophy with racing. Like I'm just never going to quit when in reality, like there are going to be situations where you quit. And as much as I would have loved to have gone my entire career, never having quit or dropped from a race, it's like, I'm doing some of the hardest races in the world. Like it's bound to happen. Yeah, of course. Right. But that binary is helpful, especially in the early days. Like the, when you're in the room, it's like, it's very clear. Like you read, you're either sober or you're not, you know, it's like, there's no gray area, you know, but life is full of grays.

1:19:13But when you get into running and you're like, okay, well, I'm going to use that rule that works so well for me in this context and apply it over here, there's value in that initially. But then as you grow and evolve, like you have to, you know, you have to amend these rules. And I think a lot of that just boils, boils down to ego, you know, it all comes down to ego. So when you're, when you, you mentioned, you know, doing inventories, uh, when you are like doing, whether it's a daily inventory or more formal inventory, like what are the, what are the patterns that continue to, to kind of recur that, that trip you up that, you know, that you still need to work on?

1:19:51I think a lot of it just has to do with, uh, patience, you know, having patience with people. um a lot of it has to do with you know fear like i may react a certain way because i'm just i'm just afraid of people not liking me or you know things not working out um or yeah just like getting angry over stupid shit you know um i think just like having real human emotions that all of us, uh, all of us have. And like, I dude, it's like, I am so a product of my parents. Like I see the things that I suffer from are like character flaws that have just been passed down to me and like me being impatient or me, you know, getting angry or upset or, um, Just all of those things are just, I mean, almost a part of my genetics.

1:20:51And at least, you know, being aware and cognizant of those things and addressing them when they happen and immediately like trying to figure out, okay, what's the part that I played in this? Like, where was I wrong? Let me, you know, fix this, whether it's, you know, an apology. Like I always try to, um, and it's almost like I am a confrontational person, but I will like, if anything happens or comes up, I will immediately like try to squash it and, you know, fix things. Like, yeah, I just a human being like everyone else. Like I have, I have, I'm not perfect. How's the, uh, how's the imposter syndrome going?

1:21:35Oh God. I mean, yeah, I definitely have it. people when you, cause you're very, you're, you're, you're, you talk about it a lot. I don't know. I think I came up in an era when like self-promotion and self-glorification was like very frowned upon, you know? And I think, I don't know, I'm just like so hyper critical of myself. Um, and almost kind of like my own worst enemy. And like another thing with, you know, just shit that comes at me online, it's like nothing that anyone can say is like any worse than what I actually feel about myself. I am very self-deprecating and feel like I'm not good enough and I'm not enough.

1:22:19And, you know, that's just, you know, a pattern of thinking that's just existed within me for a long time and, you know, a work in progress to feel any different. But, um, yeah, the, I mean, I feel like, I don't know. I think a lot of it boils down to like, I just feel like there's a lot of people out there that maybe don't respect me or my accomplishments or don't want to give me the credit that I feel like I deserve. And that's okay. You know, I'm like not running the most competitive races in the world. Like I'm just like carving my own path and doing stuff that intrigues me. And I really actually don't like competing.

1:22:59Like I don't like the racing. I don't like the competitiveness of it. I just like really crave the challenge and it's really easy to find the challenges within these races, especially like that super, super long distance stuff. Like you're not racing against anyone else anyway. And those, I think the Barkley marathons is the sickest race ever. Cause none of the people are racing against each other. They're racing against the race. It's like, no one wins. It's just finishers, you know, like I, I love that. I just really crave the challenge. And, um, yeah, it's like, I, I see shit that people say about me online and maybe, maybe I shouldn't even ever look at any of it.

1:23:38You keep coming back to this thing. I think that's where your work is. The, like finding a way to detach from all of that. Obviously this is like agitating you, you know, this, this, this thing, and it has nothing to do with you. No, no. It's just, it's other stuff, but it's renting a lot of space in your mind. But, you know, I'm, I'm aware of it. And it's like, you know, somehow it just always seems to get to me. So, I mean, but it's all good. I mean, I'm grateful for everything. I know I'm just like only getting better. I'm only making progress. And I'm like not even close to where my potential could be.

1:24:13So - No, I think you're just beginning. But I think to the extent that you have some degree of imposter syndrome or have an attachment to being perceived in a certain way, like these are all human traits, obviously. But at the same time, you have to have incredible self-belief to toe the line at a race like Moab and say, I'm in the hunt for this thing. Or I have a chance to win this thing. Those two things are in conflict with each other. I mean, this is a very kind of alcoholic trait. Right. And it's interesting how they can cohabitate with each other. Like I'm an imposter. They're going to come and tell me like, you know, we figured you out at the same time thinking like, I'm going to win this fucking race.

1:25:00You know what I mean? Because I'm better than these guys. You know what I mean? It's insane. Like, how does that work? Yeah. I mean, hating yourself, but thinking that you're the go at the same. I mean, yeah, it's, you know, it's, that's alcohol. That's the ism of alcoholism is the, the ego and self-obsession. And yeah, it's, you know, it's a blessing and a curse. And what's the key race this year? What are you focused on? I'm really excited to go back to Cocodona and just get a finish out there. I just got so close last year that I really want to cross the finish line. That's like my main goal and objective of that race.

1:25:41But then a couple months after that, I'm running Badwater 135. Yeah, which is a exciting challenge. Yeah. Yeah. But you are somebody who does well in the heat. Yeah. So this is playing your strengths. Some of my best performances. And it's pavement. Yeah. It's a road. I'm okay at road running. Yeah. How are you changing your training to make sure that you're ready for that race? So, I mean, I'm lucky that I live here in Southern California and Death Valley is really only like a four hour drive. So I'm actually just planning on spending a bunch of time out there. Like I'm unemployed now. I don't have a job.

1:26:21So I can quite literally - You do have a job. I don't have a corporate job. This is your job. This is my job. Imposter syndrome again. But no, I just plan on going out there a bunch this year and just doing a ton of training out there, especially in the summer once it starts to heat up. But yeah, that's a really exciting race that's intrigued me for a really long time. I think I first found out about that race watching Sally McRae win it back in, God, when was that, 21, 22? when I first kind of started discovering ultra races. And, you know, I grew up going out to Death Valley and doing camping and Boy Scout stuff as a little kid out there.

1:27:03So just having a, you know, a connection with that area and then being able to, you know, race my way into the race, like winning Sean O 'Brien, which got me a ticket into AC 100. And then I went AC 100, which got me a ticket into Badwater. So it's kind of been this cool, like, progression of races to to get me there but i do really well in the heat um i've actually been working with satisfied to help create some heat specific product that will be that i'll be wearing for the i mean it'll be coming out and i'll be wearing it for the first time at badwater so um it's been like a really the response to the nike acg like mesh shirt that what's his name wore at western states last year It's a bit different.

1:27:48I mean, that's kind of one item, but this is like a full kit. I mean, when you see people at Badwater, just like how everyone's decked out in white sleeves, I don't want to give away too much of what the product is. Like white beekeeper suits. Yeah. Everyone's just all kitted out in everything white just because it's so hot and the sun is so harsh. But it was a really cool opportunity getting to work with them and present them with Like, Hey, this is like, I live in, I live in this area where I'm running all these like super hot races. It would be really cool and fun to develop some heat specific, uh, products and, you know, presented the idea to them.

1:28:25They worked on creating some stuff, sent me prototypes. I've been wear testing. Um, um, and then we were just in, uh, South America and shot the campaign for, for all this stuff. So it was a really cool, like kind of full circle moment. And I'll be able to wear and race and use the product at Badwater this year. So that's been like really fun and exciting. And you're putting the treadmill in the sauna, like some of these guys have over the years. I think Harvey Lewis used to do that. So I have like a stair climber machine, a stepper stair climber machine in my garage. And in the summer, my garage will get like 85 to 90 degrees.

1:29:01So I'll do that. And then I saw David Roche doing all his heat suit training. So I just bought like this Tyvek painter's heat suit and cut the feet off of it. Um, so I'll do the stair climber with the heat suit on in the summer. Um, that's kind of like one way that I'm doing active heat training, but I'm also like toying with ideas of like, do I build like a tent in my backyard and get like a cheap little treadmill or a bike trainer and just throw my bike and some heaters in this thing and be able to do some active heat. I just feel so bad going to the gym and being like that guy in the sauna that's like doing squats or lunges or something.

1:29:37It's just like kind of obnoxious. So I'm, I'll, I'll do the, you know, the passive heat training in the sauna at the gym and then i'll do you know the active heat training in the garage maybe i'll you know do another but like my whole year this year is very focused on uh like building durability and volume and heat training because all my races this year cocodona is tip i mean not last year was freezing cold which was a freak year but usually cocodona is a very hot race bad water hottest race in the world and then uh ac 100 right here in the San Gabriel's is typically very hot. They did move the race from August to October going forward.

1:30:14So hopefully it'll be a little bit more mild temperatures. But I mean, last year when I won it, it was over a hundred degrees during the day. Have you met David Roche? No, I haven't. You gotta talk to this guy. You guys should compare notes. I'm a fan. I'm a fan, yeah. What is a day in the life of training now that you're liberated from having like any kind of day job and you can just focus on this. Yeah. I still feel like weirdly, like I'm still as busy. I got, you know, quite a few things going on in the works where I'm working on, um, some collabs and doing some freelance stuff and working on building my personal brand.

1:30:54So as much as I thought that I was, you know, I got let go from my job and I was like, I'm just going to run 200 miles a week now. Um, didn't, didn't really work out like that, nor would that be a smart thing to do. But, um, yeah, my, my mornings are typically, uh, wake up, have a coffee, chill with my dogs, um, maybe take them for a run four to five miles and then, um, have a little bite to eat, maybe hop on a call or two and then, uh, do a midday run, maybe 10 to 15 miles. So trying to hit 15 to 20 miles a day. Um, also So my fiancee, Mackenzie, she's a personal trainer. So I've been getting into the gym with her quite a bit more now that, you know, I don't have to be in the office at 8 a.m.

1:31:40I can, you know, two to three days a week in the mornings, uh, go work out with her. Um, and then, yeah, just getting to travel and run pretty much any race that I want anywhere in the world has been super cool and fun and exciting. And just last weekend going to Austin marathon and running Austin marathon was super fun. Um, so yeah, just kind of getting to do whatever I want and, uh, really focused on getting all of the training in with a lot less distractions has been really nice. How many miles did you run the week leading up to the Austin marathon? This probably wasn't smart, but I like, I didn't really plan on racing the race.

1:32:24I kind of was just going into it. That was more like you're there for this brand and it's a bunch of dudes or we're going to hang out. Oh, and there happens to be a marathon. And I haven't been doing a ton of marathon specific training. Like I'm training for Cocodona. And you're not like on the track throwing down like intervals, are you? Like speed work and stuff like that, are you? I had been a little bit here and there. Like I do know that that is still a very important part of ultra training. Being in the best shape that you can and being as fast as you can is great running shape. So I do, uh, you know, I try to be consistent with throwing in speed work, speed workouts and doing longer tempo and threshold workouts, um, which I kind of had been doing.

1:33:06Cause I was toying with the idea of running a surf city marathon, which is in Huntington. It's around the same time as the Austin marathon, but BPN had reached out and they were like, Hey, we're, I mean, they're the main sponsor of the, of the Austin marathon. They were like, Hey, a couple of you athletes, like, we want you to come out. If you want to run the race, cool. If not all good. And I was like, I'll just like jump into the full, um, use it as a training run for, uh, Antelope Island 50 miler, which is another race I got coming up in March. Um, but yeah, I didn't even know what I was going to do up until the morning of the race.

1:33:39Like I was like, should I, should I run hard or should I just cruise or should I be like a pacer for like a two four? I thought I was going to run like maybe two 45 or something. Um, I didn't know what kind of shape I was in. I haven't raced a road marathon in over a year. I mean, hadn't specifically trained for a road marathon or PR in over three years. So I, yeah, I just ended up showing up to the start line and my friend, Matt Lanahan, teammate of mine on satisfy, he just ran a Olympic trials qualifier at CIM in December. And I was out there and during the race, I thought it was so cool. He just, he set his watch to time of day mode and just didn't pay any attention to any splits didn't look at his heart rate just nothing just ran what he felt like was sustainable for him on that day and was right there with the lead pack and uh ran his personal best and otq'd i was like so stoked for him and i thought that was like so sick and cool so at austin marathon i was like i'm just gonna do what matt did i'm just gonna set my watch to time of day mode and um use this run as just a solid, steady, hard run workout and ended up PR-ing the race.

1:34:52Yeah. Well, that is sort of a surrender lesson also. You're like, I'm just here, I'm gonna be present for the experience and let it tell me what it wants to be or whatever. And relax. Yeah, and whatever my fitness is today is what it is. So just do that. I don't need to over-exert. Which is the opposite, sort of an antidote to the kind of fitness culture, like optimization, like obsession that people have of like, you know, with every little metric being dialed in and, you know, athletes at your level, like you have that connection with your body. Like, you know what it feels like, you know what you're capable of.

1:35:29And like, you don't need to be dependent upon all of these things because there's like intuit, like there's a, there's a integration, you know? And sometimes it is just better to listen to your body and to run intuitively and just give the best that you can on that day. Like the numbers don't really matter. So you must've been happy with a 234. Oh, I was stoked. Yeah, I was, I had no idea. I, you know, the only split that I saw was when I crossed the, there was a timer at the halfway point and I saw 117.40 something. And I was like having flashbacks of CIM where I went out too fast and ran, you know, a 116 half and just absolutely blew up in the second half.

1:36:07And Awesome Marathon isn't known for being a PR course. like it's a thousand feet of gain. And on like, on the day, it was like 20 mile an hour. It was like super windy. So the conditions were not ideal. The course was not ideal. And I saw my split at the halfway point. And I was like, Oh no, here it comes. I'm going to blow up. And you're hanging out with the BPN guys. You're probably like, they're making you like lift weights the day before. We were lifting weights the day before, but to get back to your, what was my training the week? So the week before I ran out 146 mile week. Um, you ran 146 miles the week leading before Austin before Austin.

1:36:42Yeah. Just because I was more focused on the 50 miler that was coming up and I was like, ah, the rate, like running the marathon doesn't really matter. I'm probably not going to PR anyway. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to keep my volume up and use the brace as a hard run workout. And, um, ended up running also a hundred miles of the week of the race. So the race ended on Saturday. So I ended up finishing the week with a hundred miles. And then this last week I ran another a hundred miles. So I'm like really just focused on like the ultra training and just keeping high volume and keeping my mileage up and uh building the durability and doing tons of heat track i mean dude we were out there sitting in nick sauna and sauna at the bpn hq and that those are like the hottest saunas in the world like 200 degree over 200 degrees just absolutely cooking in there but um yeah it was a really fun and amazing trip and i honestly just had no expectations going into the race i just kind of sent it for fun and but that's a nice boost going into the season.

1:37:40What is motivating all of this? What is the source of your motivation? Do you have a sense of what that is? Like what's the animating energy behind all of it for you? I think just the desire to push myself to whatever this potential is that I have and just my desire to do hard things. I just love training and I love the process of prepping for a race and I love putting in the work. And as much as I don't love a lot of aspects of the competitiveness of races, I do love the adventure of races. I think it just really boils down to I just like a challenge. I just like doing hard things and I like pushing myself and I like seeing the tangible results of my hard work, which is, you know, what you can get if you put in the work and race really hard and pour your heart and soul into this thing.

1:38:44Like if you put in the work, you will get results. When are you getting married? June. And she's like your crew captain, right? Yeah, she is too. She's the essential team member in this whole thing. She's like kind of like my coach, my strength and conditioning coach. I was going to ask you, like, you don't have, you don't have a proper coach. No, but I'm like, I'm very obsessed with, uh, like, I mean, training and product and every, like, I'm always like learning things. And I like, I just like see, like, it's pretty easy to see what a lot of elite athletes are doing. And, um, it's really not that hard to research, you know, training philosophy.

1:39:25And I just like, I, I do a lot of research and, um, I just kind of like copy what a lot of people do, you know, and borrow workouts from people. And I, I know the recipe and the formula, maybe I don't have a lot of the structure that may be, uh, like the day-to-day structure that maybe having a coach would give me. But, um, I don't know. I, I also think it's, I'm pretty good at listening to my body and knowing what I need to do. And, you know, someone can lay out a plan for you, but you still need to like be able to show up every day and execute that plan. And I think I'm, you know, I can create a decent plan for myself and just do it on my own.

1:40:06As we're coming to the end here, obviously you're this incredible avatar example of the power of changing your life. Like you've made these dramatic changes in your life and it's just this incredible 180 turnaround. What can you share about what you've learned about the capacity we all have to make changes in our lives? I think everyone has the potential to do amazing things. And a lot of times it's just really hard to take that first step to start on a path of pursuing a crazy dream that you might have or just dedicating everything in your life to one specific thing. I love people who are just obsessed and just truly dedicated to whatever it is.

1:41:01I mean, it could be running, it could be surfing or skating or artwork or any other thing. But I think everyone has the ability to do amazing things, but it's just sometimes a little bit difficult to find what that thing is for you. and also to have the knowledge and the awareness to really lean into that thing when you do discover it um which is kind of just what i've found with this whole running journey but um yeah and aside from that like i don't know i just feel insanely grateful to be able to live this life and share my story and, um, inspire people like that's the most satisfying thing, um, that I get from, you know, putting out content and running races and telling stories is, uh, when I hear people say that like, oh, this inspired me to lose weight or this inspired me to get into running and I love running and it's a part of my life now.

1:42:08Like that's where I get maybe some of the most satisfaction in my life and something that I'm kind of like most grateful for that I've kind of discovered on this weird, crazy journey. And what is the message that you want to say to the kid, Max, who is sitting in a jail cell in 2012, knowing what you know now? Man, just hold on tight, stick with it, put in the work. As long as you just do the right thing and continue on the right path, try to better yourself, everything will work out and good things will come. Yeah. I mean, when I reflect on your story, there's just no way that you can script this.

1:42:57When you're that kid in jail back then, if you told that kid like, hey, one day, You know, it's like, what are you even talking about? Like, so the notion of even like, well, set a goal and work towards it. And this is how it's like, it's not even that. It's like bigger and more mystical and magical than that. Like by you just doing the next right thing, like taking a contrary action and then the next right action after that and repeating that and repeating that and repeating that your life, the trajectory of your life, you know, starts to alter. and then it leads you to these little opportunities that you say yes to and you make these little discoveries and then you wake up one day and you're like winning ultra, like you're living a life that like you just, it wouldn't even like compute to that person.

1:43:45So to me, what I gather from that is like hope and possibility. Like no matter how far down the path you have gone, right? Like there is always the opportunity for hope and possibility. if you can just do the next right thing in front of you to do. Magical things can happen. And you're this incredible example of that. Like it's the most unlikely story. And yet here you are sitting across from me. And in my mind, like you're just at the very beginning of this incredible journey that you're on. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And just stay the path, focus on today. All we have is today, you know? So yeah, I'm just gonna keep putting in the work and doing my thing and hopefully good things will come.

1:44:31Well, I'm a fan, man. And keep making like awesome, you know, content and docs and all of that. It really is cool. Thank you. I really appreciate it a lot. And I think when you do that, everyone else sees it and then they have to up their game and it's just up leveling the quality and the caliber of, you know, what's available to the public to like be inspired and learn about, you know, these subcultures and these, you know, ways of life. So thank you for that. Yeah, man. All right. Well, come back and share more adventures from the trails. Yeah, sweet. All right. Thank you. Peace.