The Multiplicity of the Mind: Dr. Richard Schwartz On A Systems Approach to Healing the Self

29:58Like when I was trying to understand what you meant by that, for me, like trying to recollect some of those incidents in my own life and how I moved forward or failed to move forward in the healthiest way. I almost feel like those parts are not necessarily an exile but perhaps too present. Like what I've actually exiled are all the memories or experiences where somebody made me feel good or affirmed me or told me that I was worthy or that I should keep going or gave me encouragement or mentorship. And instead, you kind of lock onto those negative experiences that occur and you create narratives around them that end up driving your behavior well into adulthood.

30:50So, haven't I exiled like all the good things and overly emphasized these sort of a few incidents and turned them into much bigger deals than they should be? Yeah, there are parts that do that. So, what I was calling the critic has a habit of doing that. For various reasons, and we can get into that, it doesn't want you to feel good about yourself. And so, it will lock away any information that counters its narrative, like you said, of who you are and how bad you are, how nobody likes you or how dangerous the world is. But if I were to have you focus on that part, get curious about it, ask what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do that job, there's one of three different answers you commonly get.

31:40Either it's trying to keep you small so that you don't shine and get hurt, or it's trying to motivate you, like you said, to work harder and do better. And given your life, that it's probably the one or I can't remember the third, but yeah. Well, I think I checked both those boxes. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, I mean, we can get into all my voices and all my parts, but certainly there is a voice that's telling me, you're not good enough and the love and acceptance that you seek can only be earned through accomplishments and external validation, et cetera. Of course, like you never quite get there, chase that forever.

32:31And I have my theories about why I feel that way. But that critic is definitely powerful. And I had the same part. I came out of my family. I'm the oldest of six boys, and my father was a very prominent physician researcher, and I was supposed to be that, and I had ADD, so I wasn't a good student, and it drove him crazy. And three of my brothers are big-time physician researcher types. And so I came out of that relationship with a lot of burdens of worthlessness because he gave me that message directly or indirectly many times. And with that burden of worthlessness, the part who carries that would be the exile that I tried to get away from all the time.

33:22But there's also a critic who is saying, echoing his voice and is trying to goad me into achieving to counter the worthlessness and to constantly get more and more achievements. And IFS wouldn't exist if that wasn't true. Cause I wouldn't. That's what makes it so difficult to overcome, right? Because this is on some level of superpower. It's an unsustainable one and it's not a healthy one, but to ask somebody to let go of that or disentangle themselves from that is a threat. You know, that probably activates another part, which is saying, if you let go of that, then this whole house of cards is gonna cave on top of itself because this is where - This is how you got where you are.

34:12This is the locus of your drive. That's right. And I totally bought into that until various circumstances made me actually do the work. And I'm here to tell you that it's probably been 20 years, but that critic has got a totally different job. That exile worthlessness is all unburdened. and I'm still cooking. It's not, it didn't. Yeah, yeah. And actually - What job does a critic have now? Let me finish. Actually, it's much more effective because I'm a much better leader. I'm leading from what we call self now. And so part of what happened was, that critic leaks out toward other people. And so when I became the leader of a community, it wasn't helpful.

34:59I was alienating people and polarizing. And so I was lucky I had people come and say, you gotta do your work. And so having done that now, the critic - You gotta walk your own walk. You gotta walk your own walk. And the critic is now, he helps me discern what's good and valuable and like this podcast and what I should stay away from. He's just a discerner. And the former worthless part, the shame part, now is a playful little guy. And so I don't ever anymore, I can say this honestly, it drives my wife crazy because she feels like I should yell at myself a lot more than I do. But I really don't.

35:45I don't hear that nagging critical voice anymore. Mm-hmm.

35:56The shame piece I think is huge for a lot of people. It certainly is with me and it's on my list of voices in my head, deep shame for things I've done in the past that I can't change that I'll fixate on and how that relates to all these other aspects of all these other parts in my personality, that love is conditional and based on accomplishment, excellence is mandatory, you're never gonna be good enough. And when you fall short, it's more than guilt. It is a feeling of shame, like that drives that sense of worthlessness. And in my case, it links up with an imposter syndrome meets perfectionism, control issues.

36:49And also like a big part is fear, like dread. Like you should be very afraid. Catastrophe is just around the corner. It's only a matter of time before they find out that you don't know what you're doing and they're gonna pull the mic away from you and lock you up for good. Yeah, I appreciate your disclosure about all of that. And what I can say is that you're not alone. There's many people who, and I was that way. And shame is a real motivator because the shame and worthlessness, especially when you're a child and you get that message, is terrifying. Because we're born as children knowing that if my parent doesn't like me and thinks I'm worthless, I'm going to die.

37:40And many children all over the world die because their parents don't value them. So whenever you have that burden, it's gonna be very motivating to get away from, or it's gonna shut you down so you don't even try. So you're right. Shame is a really powerful burden. Yeah. So in addition to the exiles, we also have the managers and the firefighters. And I tend to kind of look at these things through my own experience with addiction and recovery as just kind of a operating example of how to illustrate this. But it seems to me that yes, I've exiled these certain parts of myself. And the firefighters are the kind of extreme parts that flare up when you get really threatened in a very particular way.

38:34And in the case of substance abuse, that turns into kind of like the binges that you were talking about, right? That allow you to disassociate with whatever pain that scenario or situation was producing generally unconsciously in the person. And then recovery is sort of a process of having the manager take over and get everybody in line so that you can function as a responsible human being in the world. Well, that is the current state of the art of addiction work, is to get the manager to sit on the firefighter as well as the exile. I'm trying to change that because I'm trying to help people in the addictions world actually listen to and value the firefighters.

39:25Even though they've ruined their lives, they're really just trying to protect. and then learn what they protect and heal that and then help those firefighters out of their extreme roles rather than trying to control them all the time because, you know, either you don't succeed and you just feel worse and worse because you're still binging, you can't do your recovery, or you do succeed and then you become something of a dry drunk who's gotta be careful all the time to not have that get triggered again. And so the alternative is to go to these firefighting addictive parts. And like I said, learn about what they're protecting and heal that.

40:16And then they totally, they change, they take on new roles. So it's a different paradigm for understanding addiction. Yeah, it is. And it's provocative for me to hear that because I am a product of traditional 12 step and it's benefited me in miraculous ways. So maybe I can push back a little bit and then you can give me your response to that. I think there's a difference between recovery and abstinence and the dry drunk scenario is a, would fall into the abstinence category. But if you're properly working these tools,

41:01you are then moving to a place of peace with yourself that I think transcends that dry drunkness and allows you to function. I totally agree. Yeah, like, so there is like, it's more than a armistice with your parts. Like there is a relationship with them of understanding, I guess, right? I overstated my case because I'm really trying to bring something different. But 12-step is great at certain things. I heard you talk to somebody recently about how it de-shames people, just being able to disclose what you're feeling ashamed of and have a group be very accepting of that and talk about their own.

41:51So there is a certain amount of healing in your exiles that takes place in that context. and then that makes the job of the firefighter that much easier. I mean, less intense. It can actually stand down better. And it also gets the critic off your back who's before you did the 12-step was saying, you're the only one. You're the only one who can't control it. You're just bad. And now sees that it's so common. And so, yes, there's a lot of benefit to 12-step. I didn't mean to. Right, so is there a logic in your approach in combination with 12-step? Yes, and there are people doing that. Being efficacious, sort of like mindfulness plus, sort of 12-step plus on top of it, like they can work in parallel?

42:41That's right. I'd say the only difference, at least in the beginning, is to change the view of the addictive part, to really listen to it and honor it for its service like you might the military, rather than see it as the enemy. Right, to try to understand this was an aspect of, or I was gonna say an aspect of yourself, but you see it, this is a part that is being activated to protect you in a certain situation because it felt that you were under threat. And with that, we can be compassionate about why that part flares up in its firefighter role from time to time, because it really did have your best interest at heart and it didn't realize that it was actually harming you.

43:34Yeah, so as you start to do that and you change your relationship with that part, and even before you've healed what drives it, just letting it know you understand it better and you can see how it's really trying to help, even though it's not sometimes and that it's stuck in the past. Just that shift in relationship, the part starts to relax a lot. And then if you get triggered and you have that big impulse right away, you can just remind it, I know you're trying to take care of me right now, but just trust me, I don't need that right now. And you'll find a lot more cooperation inside because you have this sort of loving relationship with the part that that ordinarily you were really afraid of or angry at.

44:22It feels very esoteric. I'm imagining myself in a situation of vulnerability where suddenly there's an overwhelming kind of craving or desire. And as they say in the parlance of 12 step, like the train's already pulled out of the station. Like you're already in a crisis at that point. Like, I don't know that a conversation with that part at that point would be adequate to mute that incredibly powerful overriding impulse. It wouldn't in the current state of the art. But if you've worked on it and you've built this whole new relationship with it and it knows you now and it knows it doesn't have to protect you in that same way, then you have that C word choice in the moment much more than you do when it just acts automatically and does its job that way.

45:17Yeah, I think one qualitative difference between your approach and 12 step would be the value in peering into your past and trying to understand it. Like there is this sort of premise in traditional recovery models that it doesn't necessarily matter why you are an alcoholic or became an alcoholic. like you can cast your gaze into your past and try to grapple with that. And maybe you come up with an answer, maybe you don't, but right here today, this is what you need to worry about. And here are the things that you can do, very practical tools that can keep you on the rails and move you in a better direction, as opposed to your perspective, which is it's all about what happened to you in the past.

46:04And rather than averting your gaze there, being curious about it and really exploring it helps you to have not only a better understanding of the driving forces that led you to behave in this way, but to make peace with them and to be in relationship with them in an honoring way almost, right? So that they don't act out. Yeah, and to what I call unburden these parts that are stuck in the past. And in contrast to maybe psychoanalysis or other kinds of more cerebral therapies, I wouldn't be having you try to figure out and go through your history from a rational place and try to identify the key trauma in your life.

46:52I would have you focus on the pain or the shame or the terror or the sense of rejection or just what you described earlier, the part of you that feels like, why would anybody want me? And I would have you find it in your body and I would have you just ask these questions of that place in your body and wait for the answers to come rather than think of the answer. So it's a very different approach. And people start to see themselves often as a child stuck in a bad situation in the past or a whole series of bad situations. And then I would say, how do you feel toward that boy? and if he were himself, you'd say, I feel sorry for him.

47:40I want to help him. A lot of times you'd say, well, he's a wimp. He was too weak. He shouldn't have gotten hurt like that. So I said, can we get that part to give us a break so we can actually help him and get him out of where he's stuck? So it's a much more limbic kind of emotional experience experience than trying to figure it out from this cerebral part. Yeah, how is that different from inner child work? Is it different just because you're recognizing all of these parts and their interplay? That's one of the differences is I'm seeing this as an inner ecology. And so for example, before I would have you go to that boy, I would have you work with the part that doesn't want you to go there.

48:28He was afraid you'd be overwhelmed by what he feels. And we'd spend time going over those fears, and I would be addressing those fears and getting permission before I went. Because I learned the hard way that if I just had you go to that inner child and you did feel overwhelmed, these protectors will backlash and they'll make you feel terrible and ruin our relationship. so that's how it's an ecologically sensitive model um i'm both working with these protectors beforehand and getting permission and then having them come in to see the change after afterwards so that's all one difference the other bigger difference is in what i call self so that yeah there's a lot of people that do inner child work they're the one the therapist is doing the talking to the inner child.

49:25And the child is forming a relationship with the therapist that can be healing. I'm not trying to say it's not healing. But for me, it's better if yourself is the one to take care of that child and get it out of where it's stuck. So the child comes to trust you as it's the attachment figure or the good parent inside rather than me. Right, right. How does this operate in other contexts beyond addiction? I mean, I know there's a variety of different conditions in which you've had a lot of success. So maybe we could talk about, like let's just talk about depression. Like is that, have you noticed because you're a systems guy, like, okay, in addiction, here's what it kind of always looks like with everyone between the cacophony of these various parts and the roles they're taking on, like what does it look like with depression?

50:23With depression, so again, you've got an exile who's very hurt or very sad and the protector is trying to keep you away from it. In depression, usually there's a part that kind of numbs you out and flattens you out so you don't have much affect. And it's really, really afraid of that exile. It's afraid of the pain that would overwhelm you. And so it makes you kind of apathetic and inert a lot of the time. And then you've got the critic who's nailing you for being depressed. And why can't you get over it? Why can't you just get out there? And so it's a version of that. And yeah, we have a lot of good luck with depression.

51:08So untangling that knot involves a variety of conversations with these various parts and getting them to retreat or chill out basically. Yeah, getting them to buy in. I'm what I call a hope merchant. So if I went to that flattening part of you, I would say, Rich, ask what it's afraid would happen if it lets you feel much. And it would say, you'd be overwhelmed and you'd be pulled into the abyss and I can't let that happen. but okay, if we could heal that, so it wasn't such a threat, would you have to keep them so flat? And the part would say, no, but I don't think you can do that. If I thought you could do it, I wouldn't be doing this because then none of them like their jobs.

51:57I'd say, could you give me a chance to prove that we can, because we can heal that part. So you don't have to do this job. You can be freed up to do something entirely different. Do you then give those parts a new job, like a specific new job? Like don't you have to direct that energy into something specific? No, I would say, Rich, ask this flattening part what it would like to do instead if it really didn't have to do that. You'd be amazed at the answer. It's often the opposite. It wants to get you out and give you a lot of life. Yeah, so I don't have to assign any jobs. We just, the concept is they're all valuable.

52:36They got stuck in these roles and we're allowing them to return to their naturally valuable states. The more I learn about this work that you do and the more I'm cognizant of the various parts and how they're impulsing me in various ways, the more I realize you can kind of see it in other people too, especially people you know well, like when they're behaving in a certain manner, if you know them well enough, you can almost see like, oh, that's that piece, that's not really their self, they're activated right now for this reason or that reason. So I can imagine that there's a lot of benefit in the context of intimacy here, right?

53:23This new book that you have, you're the one you've been waiting for is really kind of all about that. Like in a couples therapy context, having a shared understanding of each other's parts and how they function can be extremely beneficial in creating healthier communication because we're all, anybody who's been in a relationship, like your buttons get pushed or you say something and they say something and then you're reacting to the various parts as opposed to seeing the self beneath all the activity that's kind of hanging over the whole dynamic that goes sideways. Yeah, exactly. So on a good day, I'm a guy and I trigger my wife and she's Italian.

54:10So she's got this big, angry part. And it's startling to me because it would remind me of my father when he would get so angry. And it would originally hurt these little parts that were hurt by my father. And so I would come back with trying to match that energy and we would have these big fights. And it wasn't always, you know, she's probably gonna listen to this. So I want to clarify, it wasn't always her that started it. But now both of us can kind of say, okay, I can see she's in that part. And when you're in what I call self, it's like you have x-ray vision. You can see behind the protector to the exile that's driving the protector.

54:54You can actually have compassion in the face of the anger. and if I can stay in self and not take the bait because self is contagious and protectors are contagious so if I react from a protective part it's going to escalate and we're both going to get more and more extreme if I can, like I said, see the pain that's driving her stay in self and speak in this very different voice she'll calm down pretty quick And again, I want to make it clear it's both ways. And yeah, so that's one very valuable aspect of IFS in couples. But let me go back to something I was saying earlier, because most of us come into relationships with this exile part that feels worthless and is looking to our partner or feels terrified and is looking to our partner to take care of that part of us.

55:57Right, right, right. And our partner can't do that. And our partner, at some point, will trigger those same parts in the same way. And we might even be looking for a partner who resembles the person we got it from because we're still desperate to get dad to tell me I'm valuable. rather than so somebody resembles dad and they love me. Oh, that's so, you know, I just feel wonderful after I feel that from somebody. But then she yells at me like dad and oh, I'm back. So she can't be the one. It's got to be somebody else out there that I got to find. So what I try to do is a U-turn in couples focus so that each partner becomes what I call the primary caretaker or attachment figure for their own parts, which frees up the partner to be the secondary caretaker.

56:53Because most all of us have that reversed. We want our partner to take care of our parts or we want some affair to do it or that it's gotta come from an external person. Yeah, because we don't wanna take responsibility for our own shit. Come on, who wants to do that, right? It's much more fun to get into a relationship with somebody and project onto that person of a fantasy or an idealized version of who you think they are, who you would like them to be, and then charge them with the responsibility of healing all of your wounds, right? And when two people are doing that simultaneously, it's combustible, right?

57:34It's a setup, yeah, it's a setup. Yeah, so it becomes tricky. I would imagine when you have couples come in two people, you have, it's a very complicated knot to untie and to gain some level of clarity. And then beyond that, once you have that understanding, those buttons are so deeply ingrained, right? Like to not react when it gets pushed in the way that you have historically your entire life. I feel like an intellectual understanding of the dynamic will only get you part of the way there. Like I think mindfulness and meditation play a big role in just giving you that extra pause. So you can kind of calculate your environment a little bit better and calibrate your response.

58:24But that identification piece that you're talking about, like, oh, that's the critic or that's the this and that's what's operating here. Yeah, on a good day, we get into it. We both say, okay, timeout. we get away from each other we both go inside we find the parts that we're doing the talking we try to get them to tell us about the parts they're protecting we go in and let them know we get that that felt bad but let me handle this you guys don't have to handle it so from self I'm saying that and I feel this shift I feel that rush of anger just kind of separate and I'll say, we'll talk to you later.

59:11Let me go back. And so I go back in a very different place and she does too. And things that used to take days to get over, take out most of an hour. Yeah, yeah. How do you work with somebody who has compartmentalized that piece of themselves so completely such that, you know, the request to bring it into the light or be in conversation with it is equal, is almost like a death threat, right? Like they're holding on so tightly to this thing that makes them, you know, they think makes them who they are and to relinquish control or to have a different relationship with whatever it is, makes it literally feels like you're going to die, right?

1:00:02because that is part and parcel of how they've constructed their identity to keep themselves safe. That's right. And again, you're using pronoun they, but it's just a part. So there is a part that's been running their life and thinks it's them and is very attached to being in charge. And so the idea that there are other parts is very threatening to it. The idea that it's not who Rich is, like you said, it can be terrifying. They're going to die if they really even look at that. So there are some clients like that that come in, and I'm very gently just connecting with them. I'm not bringing up parts.

1:00:44I'm just helping them trust that it's a safe environment. And then at some point, I might say something like, I noticed that there's a part of you that really has gotten you where you are now, and it's been terribly valuable in many ways. And I'll bet it's really tired because I bet it's just constantly striving and working. And we love that part. It's so valuable and it's done such a good job. But just check and see if it might want a little bit of a break and might want to check around and see if it's totally alone in there or if there might be other parts of you or even you who could be helping it.

1:01:30So it's a kind of a sales pitch really. But to do it in a very gentle, non-judgmental, non-pathologizing way. Loving way, we love this. Instead of, you know, that thing that you do is hurting everybody around you all the time. Like that doesn't work. And that's a relic of the 12 step movement too, where you're to confront people about how much damage their activity has caused. And that's a big mistake in general. I mean, sometimes it works that like shakes people out of there, but a lot of times people just get more entrenched in their protector. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, there is, you know, a core piece obviously is the inventory, right?

1:02:14Which nobody really tells you what you can and can't write, but you're meant to go on this inward journey to really tabulate your behavior over time. And I think there's a lot of value in that because it does snap you out of whatever identity mode you're in about who you think you are and sheds light on the reality of how you actually behave. And that allows you to then see how that impacts other people. And then in lockstep with that, you make your amends into the world. So explain to me what's missing in that piece. Is it the sense that it's like there's a harshness to it or what would you? There can be.

1:02:57I think there's 12 step approaches that aren't harsh that really just do try to do that inventory from a mindful place and the shame isn't so involved in it. And even if you do it softly, I mean, a lot of times the addiction is a way to stay away from even looking at all the stuff you've done in your life. So just pushing somebody to go back and look can be very, very triggering for them and bring forth all kinds of shame. So I don't have an argument with what you just described. It's more when somebody's in denial, the aggressive approach to that denying part, rather than I can see there's a part that doesn't want to look at any of this.

1:03:48Let's get to know that part and see what it's afraid would happen. And then I would reassure the part that there's a lot we can handle and I'd be right there to help it with that. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I understand that. And it's all founded on this idea that there are no bad parts, right? The title of one of the other books, having a compassionate relationship with all of these parts. But is there an argument to be had that maybe some of these parts are bad? Like what about the person who has the part in them that makes them go shoot up a school or perpetrate a violent crime on another individual?

1:04:26Like, is it your argument that we should have compassion for that piece and try to understand why it drove the self to act out in that way? Or can we not label that as something pernicious that we need to override and overcome? You can, but it hasn't been working that well. So I believed that, okay, maybe these critics are good and maybe these binging parts are good, but what about those kinds of people that you just described? And to test that, I consulted to a treatment center for offenders, sex offenders, for a number of years and worked with a lot of those perpetrators. and we would find the perpetrating part and they of course felt totally ashamed of it and so we had to work a lot to the point where they could get curious about it and then started asking these same kind of questions and it would show them scenes in their childhood when they were being perpetrated not necessarily in the same way and that this part decided I've got to protect this kid looked around the room and said, who has power in this room?

1:05:44It's the person who's hurting me. I'm going to take in that energy to try and protect the kid from that parent and then get stuck with this desire to hurt people, the desire to hurt little kids even, get stuck with that burden and then the person goes into life and tries to keep it at bay and lock it up and it just gets more extreme. Right, right, that tends not to work, right? Yeah, so the point of all that is once I got that, that's when I could start saying, okay, maybe there are no bad parts. And I would go to other, I've been in prisons, I've been working with murderers, I've been - Does that work?

1:06:32Or have you noticed whether that works in a case of true sociopathy or somebody who is completely lacking in empathy altogether? Is it a case of understanding why they lack empathy, getting to know those parts and getting them to a place where their self can experience empathy again? Yes, yes, it's a case. I mean, that's revolutionary in terms of how that contradicts a traditional model. It's very revolutionary. And if you see them as a sociopath, you're gonna have one response. If you say, oh, there's a part that protects them that doesn't let them feel anything or care anything about anybody and just tries to get whatever they want, even if it's destructive to other people, and it's a protector.

1:07:19And let's get to know it and see where it's stuck in the past and help it, which is what I've been doing with a lot of these kinds of people. I know that this modality is, like we said, kind of at odds with traditional methods. So what is the, like, how is this being received in the broader scientific community in your field? Has that changed? I mean, there is, because it's so different and what you're proposing is at odds with so many of the kind of principles. It's very radical and I told you this is our 40th anniversary of the beginning of it. So for probably 30 years, I labored in obscurity and I got attacked by those kinds of people and seen as dangerous.

1:08:11And for whatever reason, the last decade, it's caught fire. And I don't really know why. I've tried to figure it out. But not as much like I was in academia, I was in the department of psychiatry, and then tried to present there and got attacked and just decided, okay, I'm going to go grassroots. So since then, I've been, the last 30 years, I've just been trying to bring it to therapists. And now it's everywhere. Now, I don't know why. It's being embraced. Yeah. And is there a different narrative within that more traditional culture that's changing or is there still resistance? No, it's not. No, they're still very wedded to the DSM and seeing all these things as diseases or disorders and still very simplistic.

1:09:05In other words, diagnose, prescribe without understanding like when you, like what is the emotional experience of diagnosing a patient when they hear that diagnosis and what that does to someone's awareness of like who they are and what they're capable of and what they're not capable of? Well, some diagnoses people attach to and they feel like, okay, I've got this condition. That's why I'm doing this stuff. And it's a relief in a sense. And some of that 12-step does that. You know, you're an addict and all that. But it doesn't really help you change your relationship with the parts that are making you do this.

1:09:54It just kind of, it helps you with your shame about it. But you still feel like a broken person. You feel like there's something wrong with you. And that it's not, you know, very pessimistic about changing it other than medication. or 20 years of talk therapy. And your perspective, there isn't that immutability, obviously. In the diagnostic stuff? These diagnostic categories just represent clusters of protectors usually that they're pretty good descriptions of common clusters of protectors. but that's all they are. And so instead we go to the protectors and we start to help them trust they don't have to keep doing this.

1:11:00How does the ego work within all of this? The ego as we sort of conventionally understand it, but is there a locus of that in this model or you think differently around that? Like explain your - Yeah, so what people traditionally call the ego for me is a cluster of little managers. They're the parts that you're most identified with. Some think they are you like we were saying, and they run your life and they're the voices in your head that are trying to figure out when you're in a dilemma, Well, which way to go? It's often these two different managers both trying to protect, but in opposite ways.

1:11:42So that's what both psychology and also spirituality see the ego as, as often a pest that gets in the way. And so I'm trying to also bring this compassionate awareness of the ego, because it's the parts of you that jumped into those roles to just manage your life when you were young and they've been doing it ever since and they're tired too. And they get a bad name all the time. So instead of maligning them, again, it's the same thing. Like go in, understand it. Why is it behaving? Why is this part showing up in this way? Yeah, what's it afraid would happen? That's one of the big questions for protectors.

1:12:29What's it afraid would happen if it didn't do this job? And in answering that, you're gonna hear either about the exiles it protects or about some firefighters polarized with and is afraid it'll take over if it doesn't keep you busy writing books or whatever. Right. No, I get it. And then there's the saboteur, right? So talk a little bit about that. I mean, that's the part that is always undermining you. at just the opportune moment. Yeah, if you happen to have that part, we could ask it what it's afraid would happen if it didn't. And generally it's afraid you would succeed. And if you succeeded, you'd be seen.

1:13:18And if you're seen, you'd be attacked or some version of that. So it's keeping you small. It's keeping you small. Yeah, to keep the risk level like low, the stakes being low. Yeah. One of the things that's cool about all of this is once somebody has had experience with sessions and sort of been led down the path of having an experience with yourself or one of the other practitioners of IFS, there's a whole sort of set of tools that then can be practiced by the individual itself. Like it becomes a very practical kind of habit-based tool that one can use on a daily basis. Yeah. I said earlier, it's become a kind of life practice.

1:14:07So when I wake up in the morning, I'll spend a little time in bed, just checking in with the parts that I've been working with and seeing how they're doing today and do they need anything? And have any of them reverted to their past roles or brought their burdens back? And I'll just make sure they know that I haven't forgotten about them. Because for me, these are real. These are not imaginary. This is a real inner family that we all live with. And just like your external family, if you neglect them, they're going to get extreme. So there's an ongoing, it doesn't take long usually, maybe 10 minutes, but just staying connected, reminding them, okay, today I'm going to be doing this interview with Rich and I can handle it.

1:14:59You guys don't have to jump in. You can just let me stay because it always goes better if you let me stay. And we might even rehearse a little bit. And so when I get here and having lunch, I'm talking to them about, it's okay, it's going to be okay, just let me stay. And then I stay with those C-word qualities. You probably have sensed, I'm pretty calm, I'm pretty confident, I'm pretty clear and compassionate. And there's like eight C words that describe what I'm calling self. I'm creative, I'm connected. I forgot, I think I just found one. Calm, compassionate, curious, clear, connected, courageous, is that eight?

1:15:54That was the one I missed. Yeah, I think that's eight. Yeah, so. And every self in its purest state, those eight C's kind of are prominent qualities. Yeah, there are other qualities like joy and perspective, and, but they don't begin with the letter C, I like, you know, alliteration. And these eight are the ones that are most relevant to the healing endeavor. So, you know, I can check very quickly how much I'm in my body and self versus there's some part that's taken over. And you get a real palpable sense of the difference. And if I feel like, you know, if you said something that triggered me, I would notice and then I would just say, just let me stay.

1:16:44Just relax a little bit. And now my parts trust that it's better if they do that. It's taken a lot of work, a lot of those morning connections and a lot of unburdenings, but now they basically trust me most of the time. Yeah, that's interesting. I think there's something really beautiful about the idea that the unencumbered, unadulterated, uncompromised, pristine self that lives within all of us is characterized by all of these laudable traits, right? Like within that, there seems to be a certain spirituality, right? Like if all human beings have this within them and that's somewhat of a natural law from your perspective and something that shares and unites all of us and our path really, or our journey is to either, is to rediscover that within ourselves and express that.

1:17:43Like, I think that's a, you know, there is a, you know, a sort of, you know, non-denominational, you know, spiritual beauty in all of it. Thank you. It's true. And when I entered all this, I was a scientist, non-spiritual person. I come from a atheistic father. And the big challenge for me was as I started to see self in people that had no business having any of those qualities given their histories, I couldn't explain it from traditional psychology, which believes in attachment theory. And attachment theory says for you to have any of those C-word qualities, you needed to have a certain kind of parenting during a critical period in your childhood.

1:18:31and if you didn't get that, then you got to get it from a therapist or you got to get it from a spouse or it comes from a relationship. It's not inherent in us and I was finding people that had been abused on a daily basis just by getting some parts to open space, the same person would pop out in them that was popping out in all these other less abused clients so I couldn't reconcile that until people started saying, well, maybe this is like Buddha nature or maybe this is like Atman, or maybe this is like Christ consciousness. Or it seems like every spiritual tradition has a word for it, whereas almost no other psychologies do.

1:19:11So then I started to say, okay, I can ground it over there. And it turns out you don't have to meditate 10 years to get to it. It's right beneath the surface. And of course, once you create a healthy matrix matrix of relationships with all of these parts and the self can emerge and express those eight C's. Not only are you becoming a more fulfilled, self-actualized, healthy human being who can contribute positively to the world. There's a whole downstream series of implications to that because it ends up, obviously you're affecting all the people that you're interacting with in a positive way as well.

1:19:57Yeah, and as I'm getting older and trying to figure out what I want as my legacy, I'm moving this to larger and larger systems because I think the world needs, isn't just my system, but this is one of many systems that can actually make a difference. And so I'm trying to bring more self-leadership to the world basically. and having some success doing that. Because I do, like I said earlier, self is contagious. So for example, we're working on now training for executive coaches so that CEOs will be more self-led and that will spread throughout the company. and I'm working with a lot of the top social activists in the country now.

1:20:53So they're not doing their activism from righteous parts, but - Right, martyrdom, like basically an expression of their pain body. That's right. Yeah. And it often is. And as we heal those painful parts, then they can lead from self and they are much more effective. How does one gauge their progress? Like I've found that often it's others who are the more reliable, effective mirrors of one's personal growth because on a day-to-day basis, it's hard to really know that within yourself. How does one know when they're moving in the right direction or is there a situation in which you've arrived at a place of wellbeing or is this just layer after layer until you expire?

1:21:45Well, I've been at it 40 years. I'm still finding parts that need to be healed. But to answer your question, I don't get triggered like I used to by so many things. So some of how you can judge it are the same things triggering me and it's just not the case anymore. So that's one measure. There seems to be a sort of anthropomorphizing glorifying of all of these parts, right? Like, do you have people give them names? Do you have them conjure faces and personalities for them? Like I'm reminded of, I think it was Elizabeth Gilbert who was talking about, like you hear a lot of this in the context of creatives going to war with their like resistance or writer's block and kind of giving names to that and saying, Elizabeth Gilbert's example is we're going on a road trip, we're gonna drive across America.

1:22:44And like, okay, buddy, you know, like the part to use your phraseology that is telling her she's worthless and can't write and has nothing to say and you know, blah, blah, blah. Her way of explaining it was like, you can come on, you're gonna come, like you're with me. Like we're in partnership, right? Like I'm not, you know, like pretending you don't exist. Like you're here, but you just can't sit in the passenger seat. Like you gotta get in the back seat. And if you start piping up, like then I'm gonna put you in the trunk or whatever. Like, so there's a recognition. I hope she didn't say the trunk, but yeah.

1:23:19Yeah, so it's like we come up with all these creative ways of saying something sort of similar to what you're talking about, right? That isn't repressing or denying or ignoring or compartmentalizing this aspect that we're very aware is looming in there, but finding a way to communicate with it. So it feels heard, but not empowered to exert itself in a way that's gonna be damaging. Yeah, and she's been using IFS for a number of years now. So that's why she talked about it that way. Oh, interesting. Oh yeah, that's cool. In fact, I'm gonna interview her for a thing I'm doing, I think in a week or two.

1:24:00So it is her, yeah, I think I'm remembering that story right from - Yeah, except the trunk, I don't think she would say. So maybe, yeah, maybe not. But I just do, I do remember that idea of like, I'm not saying you can't come. Like you're coming, just shut up or like - We like you, but you can't drive. We just not gonna let you drive. Right, right, right, right, right. Or maybe it was like, you can come, but you can't like choose the songs on the radio. Could be that. Something like that, I can't remember. And then of course, Steven Pressfield calls it resistance. And then the flip side is the muse.

1:24:34And that made me think about sort of the converse of that idea, which is adopting an alter ego to go kind of do the thing, right? Like almost, you put on your armaments or your battle ready by adopting a persona that is kind of an extreme extrapolation of who you are in order to go put yourself in a challenging or difficult situation. Does that mesh up with like your model at all? No, that kind of violates the spirit of it. Interesting. It's really to help those armored parts trust. There is this other person in there who can handle like three of those eight C words are courage, confidence, and clarity.

1:25:20So that's all you need. Myself can be totally fierce if necessary. I don't have to rely on an armored part. and if I'm going into a dangerous situation, I can ask my exiles to just go into a kind of waiting room. They don't have to be here even and let me handle this situation. So we're really trying to help these protectors trust self and not feel like they've got to - Yeah, interesting. Cause yeah, I'm wondering like, so it was Kobe Bryant who had the Mamba mentality or David Goggins becomes Goggins and the Iron Cowboy becomes the Iron Cow. Like they're sort of trying to channel a larger than life version of themselves.

1:26:06So what's wrong is the wrong word, but maybe. Well, that's different. That's kind of what I'm getting at though. Yeah, so I played college football at my size. And so there was a part of me that I just hated. My father was full of rage and loved running full speed into guys twice my size. And I would call on that part and it kept me alive. It kept me from being damaged. So in those kinds of situations where it's fine to call on those parts. Right, like an athlete who's trying to channel a superhuman performance. Yeah. Unless in doing that, you're perpetuating this sense that they don't know you and that they don't trust you and they feel like they have to protect you all the time.

1:27:01Right, you're the wizard of Oz, right? He's behind the curtain. Yes. He's feeble and incontinent compared to the alter ego, right? At my age, that's not funny.

1:27:19So we're helping them become like volunteer fire department rather than firefighters that are on duty constantly. Right, right, right. But you're able to call, summon them as needed. I still have that part. And when I'm, now I sometimes play basketball. It can still, I still like it when it takes over. Sure, sure. But it doesn't have to protect me all the time. Yeah. Well, I think it would be cool to, We talked about you maybe taking me through an exercise or you want to do that? Totally. All right. Well, let's try this out. How do we do this? Do you have something you wanna explore? We've talked about a bunch of different parts of you.

1:28:00Yeah, I mean, I think, I've done so much work and in so many different modalities over the years and have grown tremendously, but I still get tripped up by certain things that I feel I beat myself up then for not having grown more. I still am driven, but well, I'll just give you kind of a bunch of stuff and maybe you can extract from that what might be worthy of focusing on. I mean, I still, I've gotten a lot better, but I still externalize this sense that my value is calibrated to my value. my accomplishments or that love is conditional as opposed to something that I should just be able to receive.

1:28:54You know, that no matter what I do, I'm never gonna be good enough that, you know, you should be very afraid because it's all gonna fall apart. All these stuff, these things I've already mentioned. I think I have a,

1:29:09you know, I walk around with a little bit of a self-conscious protective shell around me. And on some level, I'm still the scared kid at the bus stop that used to get beat up a little bit. And I know that I've heard you do this exercise with other people. And often it starts with communicating to that five-year-old version of yourself. And I was reflecting on that a little bit and realizing like, I don't have any memories. like I don't remember being five. Like some of my earliest memories are much later than that. Yeah. And you may not have visual memory, but you may have sense of memory. We just don't know until we get in there.

1:29:54But so far you mentioned four or five different protectors we could start with. So you think you mentioned the critic and then there's the striver that's trying to get achievements so you feel better about yourself. And then there's that shell. And there was one other. I don't remember. I don't know, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, control. Okay. I can keep going by the way, but like. Just pick one of those. It's like, it's that thing of like, I've got a lot, I feel like I have a pretty good level of self-awareness around all this stuff. But self-awareness by itself doesn't help them change.

1:30:30Yes, of course, right? And I did just do some pretty intense work around family of origin stuff. And so I feel like I'm better armed around a lot of the childhood trauma issues. And I've been able to give myself a little bit more leeway and compassion than I was able to earlier. And also view my parents in a much more forgiving and compassionate way. Cause I do have like sort of latent anger that flares up that I think is related to that in certain ways that still comes up from time to time. Okay, all we need is a starting point. So among all those protectors, is there one you'd like to start with?

1:31:13I think the one that is probably the most important is the protector that won't let me receive or give love or has that conditional relationship around it. Okay. That has to do with worthiness, of course. We don't have to figure it out right now. We're just gonna start by focusing on that feeling or however you experienced that protective part and find it in your body or around your body. Yeah, it's hard because there's cameras and there's lights and I'm sitting across from you and I'm caught up in my head around like, this is a public thing. And it's like, there's a lot of layers here that maybe might prevent me from being able to - It doesn't work at all.

1:32:02So there's no pressure. And I assume we can edit some of this out if it goes to places you don't want it to. It's not so much that. It's more about whether I'll be able to, again, it's like I have to perform now, right? I gotta be a good performer for you and for the audience. It's more about like that self-consciousness of being watched that is preventing me from. Well, maybe we should start with that one. Why don't we start with that self-conscious part? All right. So see if you can find it in your body, around your body. I don't know. I also feel my skeptic coming up here too. Maybe we should start with that.

1:32:45Yeah. And I wanna be a good test case. I wanna tell you where it is, even though I'm not sure where it is. Just any sense of - I would say in general, probably around, you know, my heart, my sternum. So focus on it there and tell me how you feel toward it. Are we still talking about the self-conscious part or what are we talking about? I think the worthiness of love part is probably more at the heart of things. So that's where you find him. Yeah. And as you notice him there, how do you feel toward him as you sense him? I mean, there's a sense of,

1:33:32there's competing feelings. On the one hand, there's sadness that there's this person that feels like they're not worthy unless they're doing things that people approve of and how exhausting that must be. Totally. And then there's the other side of it, which is, yeah, but this is what makes you, you. And look at all the amazing things that you've been able to do as a result of it, this is your best friend and your superpower. And you should hold on tightly to that. And it's okay because it's okay, it's okay if you're not able to receive love because you're putting something good into the world and that can be your legacy and that's enough.

1:34:28Okay. So we're going to ask the part that just said all that to just give us a little space for five minutes to actually get to know this one in your heart. And we get that it feels really dependent on that to do what you're doing. But let it know that if it lets us help this one, you're not going to stop doing what you're doing. You'll just do it more effectively. I promise. I've heard that before and I don't believe it. That's fine not to believe it, but just ask if it would give us a chance. And it doesn't have to if it's too determined that this would be too threatening to your system. But if it's willing to let us go with compassion to this one, you can lead the system more effectively than this part.

1:35:27So, I mean, do I say that out loud? Don't have to, you can say it inside. Okay. But if it's willing, you'll notice a shift and you won't have that same need to keep it going. I would say it's holding on pretty tight. Okay, then we could shift to it. The one who really thinks you have to have this other to get anywhere. So in other words, have me speak for that part? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I might even, I could talk to it directly for a second if you want. Sure. Okay. So you're the part of Rich that really thinks he needs to feel all this bad feeling to be motivated to do his job. And that that's enough.

1:36:18He doesn't need to have love in his life otherwise because he's bringing this to the world. Is that right? You're that part? A little bit. I would say, yeah. I mean, I think. Just let it speak, don't think. Speaking, yeah. So you're the part that tells me that. Rich is, he's got issues. Let me tell you, right? He's weak. He's a little too sensitive. And if I didn't show up, this guy might've not ever moved out of the house. And so I boost him every day. I get him out in the world, I get him to hustle and like, look what I've been able to manifest as a result of that. And just keeping him shy of that prize that he's reaching for gets him out of bed every day.

1:37:08Okay. So I do believe you deserve a huge amount of credit for all you just described. Are you tired though? Is it the part now or is it the self? As the part, stay with the part. The part is indefatigable. Okay. I think the self is tired. Just let the part speak though. Is that true that you're not tired? You just could keep going forever? Or are there times where you get a little tired? It's a drag, but I got a lot of endurance and I get a kick out of the suffering. You get a kick out of Richard's suffering? Yeah. And what's the kick about?

1:38:01Because through that suffering, he learns more about himself. Okay. So you're afraid if he gave up the suffering, he wouldn't be learning much. The suffering is the engine. Oh, well, that's different. It's not just learning, but he wouldn't be motivated in the way he is without the suffering. If he's not suffering, then he's not working hard enough. Yeah, okay. All right, and how old do you think Rich is? Don't think, just let it come. Probably 15. Yeah, okay. So, I get that when he was 15, you really had to do this for him, but would it shock you to learn that he's considerably older than that?

1:38:51He might think he's older than that, but I know that he's still 15. You know that he's still 15. And he's still as vulnerable as he was then or what's your sense? Yeah, it's hard to parse the self from the part. Just let the parts speak. But the part probably, the part is operating under the assumption that nothing's changed. Right. That he's still in that kind of vulnerability. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. So I understand why you're still taking this position that was so necessary back then. But if you really trusted that he wasn't so vulnerable now as he was then, would that make a difference in your attitude?

1:39:36It would, but you're gonna have to prove to me that he's trustworthy. Yeah, so tell me more about why you think he's not trustworthy. Yes, that's a hard one to answer. Because you don't wanna disclose something or just - No, not because I don't wanna, because I'm trying to identify like if, so the part, so that part - It doesn't trust you. He doesn't trust me because at 15, I had a lot of vulnerabilities and weaknesses that were exploited by others. And I can't see the person, the self that is operating today. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, he still lives back there. He doesn't know you. He doesn't know who you are.

1:40:30He still thinks you're 15 and as vulnerable as you were and that you couldn't protect him back then.

1:40:39So we can keep going or we can shift, but if you wanted to keep going, I would ask how you feel toward that 15-year-old boy. I feel really, I have deep sadness for that. Like compassion sadness? Yeah, yeah. Could you let him know that? and just see how he reacts to your compassion. There's a gratitude, I think just for being seen. That's right. Because the feeling of being invisible. Totally. So let him know you get back then he was feeling very invisible, but that you see him right now. I see him too. Yeah. and that you care about him. Just see if there's more he wants you to know about what it was like back there for him.

1:41:38You know, I think a deep loneliness and sensitivity and feelings of being misunderstood and not being heard or recognized, but instead sort of being shouldered with expectations that didn't really meet, that didn't really honor or recognize like the person. Yeah, yeah. So as you're getting this, how are you feeling toward him? There's a feeling of calm. sort of a catharsis. Yeah. So it's really helping him to have you witness him this way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And do you see him right now or you just sense him in there? No, I can see him. And how close would you say you are to him in terms of feet away?

1:42:43Oh, just right next to him. And how's he reacting to your proximity? I think he's

1:42:53unsure, not necessarily trusting. This is new for him. Yeah. So we're not going to push this. We're just going to be with him in this caring way until he starts to trust it a little more in whatever way feels right to you, Rich, to let him know that he can trust you and just take your time. He can trust you and he doesn't have to perform for you. You're just there with him because you care about him. Yeah, I think that he's comforted by that. He's scared and uncertain, and feels alone in that and very private in that. Yeah. Yeah, so ask if he would like you to show up this way for him more than you have.

1:43:53There's a resistance to that. Yeah, not from him, from some other part, just ask. It's more of a, you don't understand. From him? Yeah. So ask him about that. Man, where does that come from? Yeah.

1:44:15And it's a lot of, it's all about like legacy burdens really. Great. Which you talk about. Great, yeah. So what's he saying about the legacy burdens? I have to be this person. Okay. I'll make it work. Yeah. You know, it'll be fine. Just leave me alone. So he carries all of that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And ask, since he got that from other people, It's not his. Does he like having to carry all that? No, but it doesn't feel safe for him to be who he wants to be. In that context, in that time period. Is that right? Yeah. So ask him if he'd like you to take him out of there to a safe place. Yeah, that's what he wants.

1:45:04Okay. So are you ready to do that or is he ready to go? Yeah. All right, so let's take him, could be the president, it could be to your house, It could be a fantasy place, wherever he'd like to go. Specifically? Yeah. Just ask him. I don't know that there's a specific place other than away from where he is. So just take him, just bring him here for now. All right. And tell me when he's here. Okay. How does he like being here? I think he's confused. Okay. What's he confused about? Well - Why are there lights and - It was 1980 a second ago. And now there's a lot of stuff that is unrecognizable. Yeah, that makes sense.

1:45:50He'd be confused. A lot of this didn't exist in 1980. Right. Okay. But does he trust that he's not out and not in that time anymore? Yeah. And how's that for him? Relief. Yeah. Does he trust you care about him? I think so. Just ask him. Because it was just demonstrated. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay, just ask him now. Yeah. So tell him he never has to go back and you're gonna be looking after him and ask with that, if he's ready to unload this legacy burden that's made him feel so bad. I think there is a welcoming of that, but also at that age, the legacy burden or expectations weren't something that I was fully conscious of at the time.

1:46:54I mean, it was operating in my unconscious, but I wouldn't have been able to label it or understand it. So I think he's not quite understanding the proposition. Let's put it this way. Ask him to scan his body and see if there's anything he carries that doesn't belong to him. Yeah, there's a lot. Where does he carry all that in his body or on his body? I think it's almost everything. It's a sense of feeling trapped in the wrong life. Okay. Yeah. And now that he's here with you and you're gonna be taking care of him, would he like to unload that? Yes. All right. and ask him what he'd like to give it all up to.

1:47:39Light, water, fire, wind, earth, anything else? I think the water. Okay. So set that up, take him to water and tell him to just let all that out of his body, off of his body, let the water take it. There's no need to carry that anymore because he's not living back there anymore. Mm-hmm. And just do that until it's all out of him. Okay. How's he feeling now? Lighter, freer, liberated. Good. Hopeful. Good. And tell him now if he wants to, he can invite qualities into his body he'd like to have to replace all that stuff. You can just see what comes into him. Yeah, I think an empowering sense of agency and self-efficacy and permission really is a big one.

1:48:41That it's okay for him to be who he is. That's right. So how's he doing now? He's doing better. Good. Yeah. So now let's invite all these protectors that we met to come in and see they don't have to protect him anymore. There might be other parts. but that he's doing well, particularly the one that led us to him and just see how they react.

1:49:13I think it's a situation of like confusion, like, okay, what are we gonna do now? But also like, all right, like, I guess this is cool. It seems like he's doing all right. well what are we going to do now is a really good question so they can all start thinking about new roles if they want what would they like to do if they didn't have to be these guys a source of empowerment there you go that's right so thank them for letting us do this actually quite a big piece of work yeah and just check and see how it's feeling in there if there's anything else we need to do before we come back out. No, I feel like the reassigned roles need to be just providing him with not just support and encouragement, but with the tools that he's going to need to be able to stand on his own two feet and explore his own way.

1:50:17Yeah. Are you willing to do that for him? Mm-hmm. So let him know. Okay. Does that feel complete for now? Yeah, that was pretty good. Come on out and how are you feeling? I feel good, I feel good. No, it was, it was surprisingly meaningful. I think it was a little bit impacted by just, you know, the construct that we're in right now. Like I probably would have been more emotional if I was sitting in your office and no one was watching. So I had a self-consciousness around that, I think. Yeah, I could tell. And also it just being a newer exercise of trying to really get a handle on like the parts and how they're operating and separating that voice from my voice.

1:51:18Yeah. Yeah. Given that this was your first shot at it, you're really good at it. Yeah. I mean, we went to an exile that many people takes months to get to. Yeah. Well, we'll see. I mean, what's the tail look like on this in terms of how many sessions you have to do or how do you have to, like what is the kind of protocol that maintain those breakthroughs. Maintenance simply means what I was saying earlier. Tomorrow morning, wake up, see how this 15-year-old's doing, if he's still feeling good. If not, why not? What happened? Did some other part throw him back? Because it was threatened to not have the power over him.

1:52:09And so just maintaining it on your own now It helps to map it out in some form, but take it as real. Right. This is a real inner system that needs maintenance. Thank you. Thank you. Before we close it all down though, I think it would be cool if there was some kind of, like is it okay to give the audience some type of practice? I mean, you talked about what the thing that you do in the morning, but is there some kind of takeaway that they could start to wrap their heads around and do themselves? Well, the closest I can think of it to that is I did a series of these kinds of things, exercises, meditations for Sounds True.

1:53:02And I forget what it's called, but they should be able to find it. All right, we'll find it and link it up in the show notes. Yeah, and there are in the book, No Bad Parts. I think in that book too, there are also exercises. Yeah. Yeah. All right, good. Any place other than those two places and picking up your books, particularly the latest one that you wanna direct people towards? There's another book that just came out last month called Introduction to Internal Family Systems, oddly enough. That feels like that should have been the first book. Yeah, well, these are actually second editions of them.

1:53:43And so all of that's coming out through Sounds True. And yeah, otherwise, if people go to the website, which you can post, there's a bunch of other stuff. Cool. Well, I really appreciate the work that you do. I know that it's been transformational for many people, including people that I'm close to. and I was moved by what you just took me through. So I appreciate that as well. I was honored that you trusted me enough to do it, honestly, and really happy we could do that bigger piece. All right, well, thank you very much. You're very welcome. Cheers. You too. Peace. Peace out.

1:54:39That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner. at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment.

1:55:23Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

1:56:01Portraits by Davey Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, as well as Dan Drake. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love. Love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.

1:56:40Thank you.