The Unspoken World of Male Body Dysmorphia: Ultrarunner Tim Tollefson's Journey To Healing

27:56if you don't have an adequate diagnosis. So like to say disordered eating is sort of a catchall umbrella for anything else that might fall between the cracks. Yeah, because I think eating disorder versus disordered eating is like, maybe this is a bad analogy. A clinical diagnosis versus something's fucked up over here, but we just don't have a name for it. Yeah, and maybe this is a bad analogy, but like a binge drinker versus an alcoholic. Like, okay, I went on a bender and like I displayed some of these behaviors, but you can choose to stop. You can like go on with your life. The alcoholic can't, you know?

28:34So maybe there's some sort of parallel there. Yeah, I get that. So, you know, with someone suffering from an eating disorder, like, you know, an anorexic, it's not that they don't want to eat or they know they can't eat, but there's something like in their brain that's like basically gone haywire that they aren't able to. and even as they deteriorate. But I based, and through my experience in the medical model, like I'm thankful that my therapist knew how to, I don't know, not game the system, but like treat it appropriately. We were like, I was probably gonna get denied cause I didn't fit one of those three big ones.

29:11And for all intents and purposes, I'm a healthy white male, a pro athlete. Yeah, you're not like, I don't fit the bill. You're not stumbling in at 85 pounds with your hair falling out. Yeah, so why would an insurance wanna pay for my eating disorder treatments? So I think that's a bit of the disordered eating. I think everyone probably experiences disordered eating at some point. And as you said, the fad diets, that promotes a lot of disordered eating behaviors. I think though, if you have someone that's predisposed to developing an actual eating disorder, that's where those fad diets are dangerous.

29:51Right, because you can just hide behind it and perpetuate. I'm intermittent fasting for 22 hours a day. Right, actually you're just not eating. You're just not eating. You're not eating and you're doing it out in public in a way where nobody can say anything, but in reality, what is actually going on here, right? Yeah. Right. And so how does OCD and other kind of compulsive disorders, perfectionism, people pleasing, all of that, like how do these things, because it's all a soup, right? And on some level, you know, it's, the longer I've been doing this and the longer I've kind of been in this world, like it all feels like the same thing.

30:27It just shows up in different ways, whether you're a heroin addict or an alcoholic or a gambling addict or a love addict, there's something inside of you, something happened to you, or you're wired in a certain way where you feel not at ease with yourself and you don't like how you show up in the world. And it's so uncomfortable that you develop these little things that you do to make you feel safe and okay. And often they're about trying to regain or exercise some level of control in a situation in which you feel out of control and food plays a big part in that. But really it's rooted in a sense of feeling different than everyone else, of being insecure, or like you don't measure up and you in and of yourself are not okay.

31:17Yeah. So how does that work? And like, how do those other kind of, like what is the OCD piece and the people pleasing and the perfectionism aspect of all of this? OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, body dysmorphic disorder, I think it's classified as an obsessive compulsive related disorder. So there are like two separate things, but they're kind of in that soup of compulsive behaviors. And from my understanding, the big difference is they share the same basically obsessions, compulsions linked with anxiety, but body dysmorphic disorder is directly linked just to your body, where OCD has like very kind of clear pathways of like harm OCD or germ OCD or just right OCD, all these like religious OCD, they fall into these little categories and like body dysmorphia is almost like, it's just the body OCD.

32:09Right, I see, I got it. So whether you're checking the lock on your door 10 times or however that shows up, it's a stress reducing, anxiety reducing kind of behavior. So for like the by dysmorphic sufferer, they may be checking themselves in the mirror, which we all do, but are you checking yourself in the mirror for hours a day? Like, is it impeding your ability to go to work? Are you looking at every reflective surface? Did you know you can see your reflection in a spoon? And obviously a spoon is also concave or convex. So it's gonna like distort it even more, but you will see yourself in a non-flattering way and think that's real.

32:50And so there's, I mean, I found that anything that was reflective became basically an area that I could reduce the anxiety. But the more you engage in those compulsions, the stronger the link becomes. and it just like self perpetuates. And it gets to the point where you don't trust yourself if you don't do the compulsion because the obsession is so, I don't know, it's so invasive and debilitating and unwelcomed that you feel like you have to do the compulsion to reassure yourself that it's okay. Is that, you know, checking the lock over and over or washing my hands, are my hands actually dirty?

33:26And so with body dysmorphia, it could be checking, it could be, you know, fidgeting with your hair, your glasses, making sure things are just right because your fear of maybe that rejection or the fear of other people judging you. And I don't know, I think like in my family, like we have a pretty extensive history of alcoholism. And so what you said, like, I think there are a lot of similarities between all these things. It's like, and the funny thing is like - It's the same thing that you just found a different way of expressing. And I mean, it's kind of funny. Like in, so I've had a really, really difficult relationship with food for a lot of reasons, but like I basically like did suffer from bouts of extreme binging.

34:11Again, I didn't fall into binge eating disorder criteria because I also compulsively exercise to like undo the binging. So like I kept the balances, you know, like, you know, weighted correctly. But there was a point where I'd see my friends at parties and they never ate. So I thought, why don't I just drink instead of eat? Like maybe that can replace, you know? And ultimately I just ended up drinking and eating, which is like double the calories. At three in the morning, you're a jack in the box. It's like, okay, I'm gonna add another 10 miles tomorrow on my run. So it was like, I'm very thankful that for whatever reason, despite our familial history, like I didn't seem to have the gene that latched onto the alcohol.

34:51Like, cause I was raised with that awareness that like don't touch alcohol. Like it's a really bad thing for our family. like you should not go close to it. And so like the first time I took a drink of alcohol, I think it was my sophomore year of college. And I was terrified. Like I asked my friends like, what's gonna happen when this touches my lips? You know, like, and I was just like - The devil's brew. I was so scared. And I think, but I don't know, like, so there definitely is a component of just that, like overall anxiety, you know, around a lot of things. But like with my compulsions, I have a hard time remembering some things about like my childhood or my life and that's probably pretty normal.

35:31And I think what I've realized is over the last, you know, 10 or 15 years when I was really just like suffocating in my own thoughts, there wasn't room to entertain the past, you know, of experiences that were positive or amazing. Like, you know, cause I've had a great life, but I think I just got so focused on trying to get through the day or that moment. all I could think about was numbers and food and my body and these different compulsory checks that I would perform. But I guess I first started to kind of notice this when I was a kid. Like I had kind of a, I guess I had like a challenging or troubling experience at like a church camp growing up.

36:15And like, I must've been eight or nine. Yeah, I must've been eight or nine. And my mom, I was raised very religious and like we were sent away to a boys camp, to learn how to, let's just say hunt fish, tie knots, all that fun stuff. And my mom was pretty nervous. Cause like I'm eight or nine. She's like, oh, he's too young. And all of our church lady friends are like, no, no, this is great. Like we'll send all the kids, all the boys are together. And so, they send me to upstate Minnesota. That's where I grew up. And I mean, it was, it was a great experience. We gotta do all that stuff. But it just so happened that like our counselor, he was this recovering addict.

36:56And I think he was six months sober and he was a born again Christian. He had found God and he wanted to basically just share it with everybody. You know, like he had to profess what he had learned and he wanted to share it with everyone. And someone thought it was good for him to be in charge of a nine-year-old, you know, boys at a church camp. And so, and one thing with that experience was he was big on the book of Revelations. And I don't know, have you ever read Revelations? I can't remember the last time that I did. I know the story. Yeah. I think I know enough about - You know, it's about end of time.

37:32Fire and brimstone and what's gonna happen. It's like a Stephen King novel to an eight year old. The end of times. Yeah, and basically like really instilled in us that like, unless you're a good person, you lead a perfect life. and unless you also like ask for, you know, Jesus come into your heart, you will go to hell and you'll burn forever. And that was like, I definitely, you know, had a hard time with that. And I think I, so I ended up to this day, like my mom will, you know, bring her to tears on this, but like I wrote her a postcard from camp that said, and I didn't send it, I tucked in my bag and she found it a long time later, but it said something like, I don't wanna die here, please come get me.

38:20Like I'm having this thoughts again. Oh my God. And I don't know what that last sentence was, but like, you know, I may have already been dealing with some sort of intrusive thought, but this basically like definitely kind of kicked it into high gear. And following that experience, like she tells that like the story that I then was really afraid of everything. Like everything was gonna kill me. Like I wore clinging gloves, goggles, and walked around with a Kleenex like spray bottle, just like disinfecting everything. Cause I was afraid that if I got germs inside, I would die. And then if I hadn't already asking for forgiveness for that one thing I just did, I'd end up in hell.

38:59Eternal damnation. And so reflecting on all of this, well, and I guess, yeah, it led to compulsively praying and asking for forgiveness basically with everything. Like, am I a good person? Did I do that right? Am I perfect? Because I was learning that love was conditional and that it was dependent on basically something else granting me that. And I'm not here to say those are like beliefs that shouldn't be taught or, but in my personal experience, maybe it wasn't the right time or the right place or the right person to like really instill these things. And that was my first experience with a psychologist.

39:38My parents took me to a child psych And again, I don't know why this is because I'm sure they never said anything, but like I was terrified of going. Like something in my head told me, this is not normal. Like you're broken. And I had a huge tantrum, begged them not to tell my siblings that I had gone to a therapist, like something in me at that age knew that wasn't right. And I don't know where that came from, but the psychologist from what my mom describes, like said, you just have a really smart boy. like he's really in tune to his surroundings. He's struggling with the home environment. My parents were going through a separation.

40:16Like I, you know, and I was, I had a hard time with that, but he said, you know, it's gonna find its way through. And as far as I know, like I didn't really have any lasting issues from like those compulsory things and I didn't actively try to get rid of it. It just kind of disappeared. But that was my first experience with kind of that stuff.

40:42I own a bunch of spectacles, and I made the grave error the other day of donning a normal non-Roka pair on my indoor trainer when I was riding my bike indoors. And I got to tell you, it was a disaster. Every three to five seconds, I had to take my hands off the handlebars and push my glasses back up my nose until I got so frustrated, I just tossed them aside. This is the dilemma of every active but optically impaired person I know. And as someone who has relied upon eyewear every single day since I was five years old, it is also the source of endless aggravation. Thankfully, now eradicated thanks to Broca, the stylish performance eyewear company founded by two former Stanford swimming teammates of mine who have gifted everyone like me and, quite frankly, the world with their fashionable line of super lightweight prescription glasses and sunglasses with patented no-slip nose and temple pads that are just impervious to sweat.

41:45And no matter what you do, remain locked on your mug, no matter how intense your workout. Without the dork factor, these things go everywhere with me from the trail to the dinner party. Put them on, feel the difference, and wear without limits. Unlock 20 % off your order with the code RITUAL at ROKA.com. That's R-O-K-A.com.

42:15Wow, that's so interesting. I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, basically you survived a trauma and you found these coping mechanisms that I don't know that you outgrew, they just became latent and found their way, to different paths that kind of, and they served you, like they allowed you to survive and excel as an athlete and all these other areas. I recently had this guy, Richard Schwartzen, who's got this modality called internal family systems, which is super interesting. It's the idea, the basic idea is we're not one personality, we're the composite of like, all different kinds of personalities that are acting up and vying for attention.

43:00And when something like OCD or a fear response happens, that's one piece of your personality that was constructed specifically to protect you in a certain set of circumstances. And it works, it does protect you. But then you grow up and you're not five years old or eight or nine or 10, and it's not serving you anymore, but it's still just as powerful because it thinks that you're nine years old and you're still at camp, right? And making peace with that and trying to quell it and be like, it's cool, I'm good now, thank you. I don't really need you anymore, but I appreciate all the hard work that you've done for me.

43:37It's like this process of like understanding all of those different triggers and aspects of your personality to reconstruct a healthier one for yourself. And as you were sharing that, I was thinking about that. And also just the idea that, I mean, first of all, credit to your parents. they like realized that you needed some help and sought out help, which is great. But you being so young and pathologizing that and that just exacerbating your sense of being broken probably wasn't great. Yeah, and that's like, my parents are amazing. You know, like I feel like I had the best parents ever, you know, provided a loving household, always reassured us that, you know, we were welcome, accepted like, and so it's weird that like suddenly, like some of these things I deal with, with this like, oh, well obviously it probably came from like just like your immediate inner circle.

44:26Like you were, you know, whatever, something happened in that relationship breakdown. There is a trauma. But it's not about vilifying them or anything just because something might've happened and maybe it wasn't managed or dealt with, you know, in the best way possible. Doesn't mean that they're bad parents or not good people. It's they were doing the best that they could under the circumstances, but it doesn't, you know, it doesn't undercut the fact that certainly, you know, something happened or a set of things happened that set you on a path to kind of everything that happened and where you are now.

44:58And I think probably this again is a generational thing. Like each generation tries to provide a better household and experience for their kids. Cause like my parents had like what I would label as like traumatic childhoods, whereas like I had it bougie, it was chill. But there are just things that happen. And I think with, I don't know, and maybe it's a bit of a cultural thing, but it's like, you know, that Minnesota nice, you know, Lutheran Norwegian, you show up on Sunday with a hot dish and a smile and everything's always good. Like, you know, it's still like, I don't think I ever, and no, I know I never really started to talk about things that happened.

45:44And then at different stages in life, like you said, okay, maybe it kind of disappeared and then it resurfaced in experiences with bullying, or then it resurfaced in my competitive running, you know, once I got to college, and like that's where suddenly the eating disorder like surfaced up and like dealt with other things. So I think it was the fact that I never truly processed or, you know, kind of even like teased out what was happening, it was just lurking under the surface for something else to trigger it off. It's also further complicated by the fact that, I mean, you had mentioned earlier, like you were lucky that alcoholism runs in your family, but you sidestep that.

46:22But with alcoholism, you stop drinking and then you're on a path to sobriety. Like you set it down and you don't have to contend with it anymore. Whereas food, you have to eat every day. So it haunts you forever. Yeah, it's like looming over you all the time, which I actually think makes it more difficult. And then on top of that, all of these traits that over time metastasized to become problematic enough to address. In the meantime, help construct a personality, a lens on the world that fuel exceptionalism, success and results. So while you're in that buildup, you're winning races, you're getting better as a runner, you're a professional, you're doing all of these things, quietly, these things are your superpowers.

47:14So your relationship to them, even if you know in your heart of hearts, like this is not good, I shouldn't be doing this, but like, look what's happening. I'm on these podiums and this, so I'm gonna keep doing this. And this is like working for me, makes it even more difficult when you have to break up with them because they are your best friends. There are times that I have been at my sickest and podiumed at UTMB. And so it's really hard to decouple those two. Right, and if you do break up with them, then no more podiums. Yeah, that's what your brain tells you. When in reality, it was a coincidence or it was, it wasn't causation that because I held onto these certain things that happened that then I podiumed, arguably you probably could have done better if you weren't dealing with all these other things.

48:07But I do agree with you. I think that something like obsessive compulsive disorders, it is a bit of a superpower in the sense that it's really hard to manage living in your own head when it's basically you're dealing with intrusive, suffocating thoughts and you learn a lot of resiliency, endurance, patience, which I mean, you need that in an ultra, right? So, there are times where it's like, I almost feel thankful for, I feel thankful for those like, the skills that were developed. I wish they had developed in a different way. Because I think the more I learned about even sports psych, you can start to nurture those skillsets through much healthier outlets.

48:56It doesn't have to be pathological. But it doesn't create the same kind of hormonal brain spike. It's very unfamiliar and feels not right, right? Like it's like, no, I need to feel like I'm in pain or suffering or in this sort of, I have to conjure up a certain kind of state that I can manufacture through these behaviors to do it in the more graceful way that requires a surrender and a letting go and more of an allowing feels like walking on Mars compared to a lifetime of a certain way of doing things where you're getting the result that you're seeking. And you definitely like anyone that's run before, the more you run, the better you get, you know?

49:39And there's that direct correlation for a long time, you know? Okay, I'm gonna put in more, I get more out. And obviously there are tipping points and, you know, roadblocks that happen, but yeah, you start linking that and it becomes so strong that you can't imagine performing without doing the things that got you there. And I think there is that like, yeah, just being stubborn is a really good asset until it isn't. Right, right. It's a short-term strategy. It will get you to a certain point, but if you wanna have longevity or reach that, kind of get off that plateau and get to the next level, what got you there isn't the thing that's gonna get you to the next place.

50:15And there's a discomfort with that. And then on top of it, being a runner and with the food piece, it's a weight weenie sport. Like, you know, the lightweight chassis is gonna navigate those mountains a little bit more gracefully, right? So for any athlete who's in a sport like that, whether it's wrestling, running, ultra running, cycling, triathlon, where there's a power to weight thing, or even more aesthetic sports like bodybuilding, it's just, they're like, they're just rife environments for kind of cultivating these unhealthy relationships with what we put in our mouth. Totally, and I think that is a, we're starting to see conversations change on that, which I love because when I was growing up in high school and college, it was the era of either explicitly saying you should look emaciated or it was implied, you know, from some of the classic books and other things that like I would, you know, just, you know, ingest.

51:15And, you know, what people on the team would talk about and, you know, your peers or rumors, a lot of that, you know, or you'd see people. but I think you have to acknowledge that weight is a variable in running. And as you said, like, okay, like you can just do the simple physics on this. However, it's a low hanging fruit that we latch onto because we can manipulate weight pretty quickly. So we think if I'm this powerful or stronger and like have that much endurance, and if I just weigh less, I will perform X better. And that just isn't the truth because there are a lot of other variables that go into it.

51:51And I think it's easy for anyone to look at in one of their running idols, cause I did this, and you'd forget that they may have been training their body for 10, 20, 30 years to adapt into that specific like body type. It didn't just happen overnight. And there are genetic anomalies out there where someone is just like, they don't have to manipulate their body and they're going to have this particular frame. You know, like I have very broad shoulders. Lindsey and I joke that I have birthing hips. Like I will never - For a runner. For a runner. I mean, I'm looking at you, you're a pretty slight dude.

52:30You know, and it's just, that's the dysmorphic piece too. Oh, it definitely is. Just you thinking like, I'm too big to be a runner. And I'm looking at you and I'm like, you have a runner's physique. Yeah. And which is the crazy thing is like at my worst, when I was battling with anorexia in college, I was almost 35 pounds less than I am right now, which I don't - Wow. Like I can acknowledge my brain still says you have 35 pounds you could lose, but I know that's not true. Like I can just like start to acknowledge that and move on. But like in college, like I don't have 35 pounds to lose. Like, and it became a point where coach, my coach, my teammates, they were worried and bringing it up.

53:07And then you go into that defensive angry method of like, I got everything fine. Like why are you accusing me? And you know, it's just that immediate, you know, kind of self-preservation. When you were 35 pounds lighter, or in addition to just the training and the mileage, like what was a day in food for you then? Like, what did it look like?

53:29I was restricting an incredible amount while training very heavily for a distance runner. Cause I just had this very arbitrary and reduced thought that I should always be consuming less than 2000 calories a day, even if I'm running 90 to 100 miles a week. And so over time you build up a huge deficit where your body starts to cannibalize itself, because you need nutrients to fuel normal brain function, hormones, your bone density, all these things. But you're like, great, cannibalize away because I'm trying to get smaller. Yeah, I mean, and I hate to say this, but probably the highest high I've ever had is that euphoric feeling of like feeling like my bones or clothes hanging off of me or seeing the number on the scale.

54:26Like that was like, it's - It's the needle in the arm. It's better than standing on the top of UTMB's podium. Like, and which is a weird, really strange thing to say. But I also know at the same moment, I was so unhappy, lonely, isolated, like terrified. So, I would never wanna go back to that, but it was something that was powerful. And what was your level of self-awareness around, you know, the disease or disorder aspect of what you were doing? Because I just know from my own experience, it's like, you know, this isn't right or good. You just kind of push that down and you're like, it's fine.

55:15I got this, I'm under control. It'll be cool. I definitely knew it. I mean, I think when you engage in certain behaviors where... Like you immediately have shame around what you just did. and you wouldn't be able to tell a friend what you just engaged with, I think you know that you're doing something that's not right. If you couldn't tell your grandmother that you were just like eating out of the trash or like whatever you just did, like some sort of purging behavior, like that's not okay. Right. And I think that's where like, probably the components that I built as an adolescent of like really being hyper-cognizant of my appearance and of the way I carry myself, everything from my voice to my hair, to my posture, all these things.

56:06Like I was just hyper-cognizant of being judged. I think that led into, okay, now I'm an athlete and I see all these other athletes. And it's a very reduced view. You see athlete X perform and you think it's because they look a certain way. And again, you don't know what the training was that went into that. that you don't know their individual biological differences. And what I noticed was I was very fortunate. Like I was never the best or even close to the best runner in high school, college, even pros like as a marathoner. But I had opportunities because I had friends with really fast people to like get into these training groups like in Mammoth and like run and do easy runs for MEB and do long runs with them.

56:49But like my brain's comparing me with MEB. Like that's not a fair comparison. Like that's just not like, that should have never happened. Right, I mean, just to kind of drop into mammoth, like if comparison is the thief of joy, like you're in an environment where, you know, that comparison that you're running in your mind is gonna drive you insane. Oh yeah, I was broke. Because you're amongst - Stole all my joy. Like - And was that, was Ryan Hall still, you know, doing his marathon thing at that time? Like, cause he obviously he was like, I mean, and he got so lean or whatever to the point. And then whether he over-trained or whatever was going on at that point, I mean, now he's a completely different human being, but at that time, it looks like he kind of took that all the way to the wall.

57:32He definitely, I think he would say he got everything he could out of himself. He had transitioned out of Mammoth right when I got there. Like Lindsey and I moved there in 2011 for an internship at the hospital for my therapy. And at that point, Terrence, the coach, which he was still in charge of the Mammoth Track Club. Ryan and Sarah had just left, but like Sarah came back and I did some training with her. But like it was Meb, Dina, Morgan Eustony and Anna Willard or Anna Pearson. So it was kind of track heavily focused with a few really stud marathoners like Dina and Meb. Right, I've had conversations on this podcast with Amelia Boone about her analogous adventures adventures in this world of like struggling with relationship to food.

58:22I had Mary Kane in here and certainly there's no shortage of running institutions, especially when women and girls are involved where the powers that be are kind of issuing an edict of not so healthy, you know, dynamics around food that have led to, you know, a lot of problems. And there's been a lot of spotlights, you know, shown on that world. But what does that look like when you're a male athlete? Do you have coaches that are saying you need to drop weight or what is the, you know, kind of the power dynamic when you're underneath somebody who's guiding your career and the kind of ripple effect on your relationship with food?

59:09I was very fortunate that my coaches never had those conversations in terms of like, we need to manipulate things. It doesn't seem to be a thing with guys. No. And I, I mean, to, to my coach's credit in college, like Gary, he pulled me aside and said, I'm worried about you. Like, are you eating enough? Like, and so he noticed something was happening. You know, I think in fact that was 2006, you know, it was quite a while ago now. I think at that time it was much more taboo. He recognized it, but I don't know if he knew what to do with it. Where I think now we have much better systems in place where it's like, okay, let's get you in touch with our school nutritionist or the school psych, or let's talk to the GP.

59:56And I think those types of things have improved a lot. Because as a coach, you're kind of like the gatekeeper. You're not the expert of everything, but you are dealing with the athlete the most. So you should be able to acknowledge and then pass you off an athlete off to someone that needs that expertise. And as you said, like in the worst case scenarios, like with a Mary Kane or NOP, you had bad actors playing roles they shouldn't have been playing under the guise of I'm guiding this career. And that's tragic. Like that's really a horrible situation. And I think the more things are talked about, we can start to undo some of that negative, you know, those negative pathways.

1:00:38And then also the stigmatizing or the like de-stigmatizing that like, okay, like it's not a male thing because I'm sure there are plenty of men in all those sports you listed that have had some sort of experience or at least thoughts on this stuff. And then worst case, and that goes back to what you said at the very beginning. And, you know, and I was talking to another pro marathoner about this. Like, you know, there are people in sports that like engage in disordered behavior for a season. Because they're like, hey, my nutritionist or someone in my medical team says, I do need to cut weight for this boxing match.

1:01:11And so that stuff happens and it could technically be done like with proper guidance, but the addict or the person that actually suffering, they can't turn it off when it's over. And so it will just continue. It'll keep going despite the season being over. and it doesn't end until something intervenes or you hit your proverbial rock bottom. Yeah, and I think that lives on a spectrum. It's not a light switch, right? No. Like right now, I've got a lower back condition. It's really got me benched and I can't move the way that I would like and I haven't been able to run. I've just been way more sedentary than I have in a long time.

1:01:55And so put on a little weight, a little flabby, you know, looking in the mirror, not, that's not really how I wanna look. And, you know, I can feel myself like, you know, how does that impact how I, first of all, then I don't feel as good in the world and I don't feel like myself and my brain doesn't work. And that alters my relationship with food in a way and I'll avoid, you know, like some of that's fine and perfectly healthy. And some of it I can feel myself being a little compulsive about, like, I'm not, I wouldn't consider myself to have an eating disorder, but I noticed that compulsive kind of obsessive tickle on the back of the brain.

1:02:36And it was weird, we were tired, I was at this Strava event yesterday and it was all these super fit people. It was just like, and like everyone's looking at me, oh, you're the guy with the pod. And I was like, and I'm like, yeah, but I'm kind of like, yeah, and I go through all of that like insecurity. And I wanna acquit myself and be the guy, like could people are projecting onto me because they think they have a relationship with me because they've listened to the podcast or whatever. And all of that is spinning in my head. And it's like, it's really hard to just get quiet and realize like, no one gives a shit.

1:03:03Like, you're cool. Like everyone's happy you're here, it's fine. And I think - You don't have to go on the group run in the morning and like, you know, be in the lead pack and all of that. Like, but that's what's looping. And I've heard you say like, you're not worried about racing against the best at UTMB and how long you're gonna be out there and the suffering and how hard it's gonna be. you're freaked out about the fun run two days ahead of time. Yeah, which is, it's a really strange thing to, like, it's almost like a both and. I know I'm a competent and accomplished runner, but at the same time, I don't think I'm worthy, like I'm worthy of being called a runner or showing up in the world with people because I didn't feel thin enough or I didn't, like it was terrifying.

1:03:51So, if someone says to you, congrats, or like, wow, you know, what you've done is amazing. Like, do you kind of contract and feel unworthy of receiving nice things being said about you? Yes, and maybe a good example is in 2017, arguably probably the best race of my career. That's when you got third at UTMB. Yeah, shared the podium with Francois. You were under 20 hours. Yep, with Francois and Killian. And like the moment, like approaching the finish line, like it was pure joy. Like I'd just done something I'd dreamt of. Like I had like silenced the haters and the voices in my head. I just like was triumphant.

1:04:32But the half-life of that happiness didn't even make it to the podium the next day. Like that next morning I hopped on a bike and I was like trying to spin out my legs. I showed up and thankfully like we had podium jackets that I could wear, but jackets or shells that I would always cover my body in. So I wore pants and jacket on a hot day, staying on the podium, like super uncomfortable, but like afraid of what people might think of me. 12 hours ago, I had just run one of the best races like ever at UTMB, but it didn't last. And it seemed like the more I got into my career, especially the last couple of years, that happiness half-life got shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter, or it needed more and more to like trigger something as being worthy.

1:05:21Yeah, the insanity of that, right? Yeah, like, and I say it and it's like - I know, and even more like for people who are trying to wrap their heads around, like just to inhabit the mind, the insane mind of this, you've talked about one of the reasons why you like UTMB and you would dismiss Western states, it's not technical and blah, blah, blah. But the real reason you liked UTMB is that you start in the dark and you got a good 12 hours of hiding in darkness to sweat enough to drop a little bit of weight so that by the time people actually see you, you feel like you look the way you would like to look.

1:06:02And that is like, that encapsulates like everything you need to know about the insanity of this disorder. And because I literally see myself as overweight. Like, even though the, you know, we might have objective augmented feedback that says otherwise, like, I would see myself differently. So like, but once I cross that threshold of exercising enough, something flips in my brain, and I start to feel that, okay, the scales are balancing appropriately. And it's just pretty unfortunate that you have to go to those lengths to achieve that. And then it doesn't last. Yeah, and then with the half-life shrinking or your inability to like be present and experience joy at your own accomplishments is a situation in which you can make peace with that because your job isn't to be joyful and happy.

1:06:59Your job is to perform, right? And if this set of behaviors gets you on a podium, even if it doesn't produce joy, that's a deal you're willing to make because you need to excel because love is conditional and you can't get that love unless you do these things out in the world. And whether you're able to experience that or not for yourself is almost beside the point or irrelevant. I think that's well encompassed. Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:35So where does it, I mean, obviously, there's a percolating awareness like that you're doing things that you're not proud of or not willing to kind of share with other people. And I would suspect it's building, there's a pressure cooker aspect to it, but where does it start to really flare up in a way where you realize like, at some point, maybe soon, I'm gonna need to address this as you're kind of careening off the edge or nearing your bottom? I probably really started to notice some cracks like in the exterior shell that I like, because I held everything together really well. And I think there was almost like a pride aspect of that.

1:08:16That's part of it too, the control. Definitely like, and that's all the reassurance seeking behaviors of like a compulsive disorder is trying to establish and sort of control. Like, how do I know I didn't eat too much? I'm gonna count. Like, how do I know that wasn't too much? I'm gonna weigh that, you know, whatever. And so I started to see it really, I think part of it was Lindsay went back to school in about, it must've been right around that, like UTMB 2017 or so. Like, so we lived apart for about 18 months and she was away at school. And I think, you know, I started to realize how much I relied on her for, you know, some grounding and some stability.

1:08:56And for a long time in our relationship, I really, I felt like I was the rock, you know, like, you know, I helped her get through things and probably at the expense of my ability to share anything, you know, so when I started to talk to her about things, it was a bit of a shock. Like, you know, she always knew there were some things going on, but not the extent of what was happening. And then, cause I could internalize it that well. And, but I think starting to see how much it was impacting our relationship was a bit of that, like big crack in the, you know, in the vase where it's like seeing that my actions and, you know, the things that I'm, I thought I had under control are hurting other people.

1:09:34I think that was a big turning point. And then when she left for school, it was also like, I think that was probably the first time in my life that I maybe like, you know, kind of dabbled into the depressive state where again, I, I'm a pretty happy person. Like, even though I dealt with all this stuff, it felt like I still liked life, but like when she was gone, I think I started to feel more isolated and lonely. And I think probably a combination of seeing how much some things I was doing was impacting her and hurting. And then like scaring myself that I was having a hard time seeing, you know, a future.

1:10:08Like if you wake up or I would wake up at 5am, 6am and just be terrified of getting out of bed because the thoughts would already have just crashed on me. And I knew the moment I went downstairs, I was going to kind of like numb those thoughts with food. And then by 6am, I would have consumed all the calories I need for a day. And then I know I have to somehow survive the next 14 hours in the world, knowing I can't eat because I've eaten too much. It was just like a life of terror. And it's exhausting. It's exhausting. And as what you said earlier, I think is, is fascinating where, you know, if you think about communities historically from beginning of time, like we come together around food, food's an amazing thing and you can't live without it.

1:10:58You have to have it. That sustenance feeds us, fuels us, allows us to grow. But there were times where food felt like it was this enemy and I I couldn't be trusted around it. You know, you go into a grocery store and it's like, I don't know, the pharmacist just gave you the keys and he left and he's like, go have at it. And again, this also comes from a place of privilege where like I have the ability to purchase what I want. So like, I'm not in a starved state. I am not in a true deprived state. Like for some reason, my brain's making me do these things, but that's kind of just what I was living in.

1:11:36And so I think it was day-to-day struggling to get through where you just want tomorrow to come. Like you can't wait for tomorrow. And when you're living in that like state of, you just want the next day, you're not living. You're not ever present. You're missing out on life. And I think there was a degree of that where it's like, hey, you don't have it as put together as you thought you did. And this isn't a way to live. And that's where, I mean, in that Coros film, I'm really thankful Coros chose to support that film. You know, I had approached some other sponsors and they weren't as interested, but Coros thought it was a powerful thing to talk about.

1:12:18And so I'm very thankful to Coros for that. Essentially, it was like, you're not okay anymore. You know, like something needs to give and it's not a fault to ask for help. And I think I was still latched onto that. Like, I can just tough through this. Like, I can do anything. Like, you know, it's - Right, because self-will is in your arsenal of superpowers because you don't achieve excellence as a marathoner or an athlete in any field, if you're not somebody who has the capacity to deploy your self-will to procure a certain result. So why shouldn't that thing that I'm so good at, why can't, that should be able to solve this problem.

1:12:58I'll just redirect it here and we'll take care of it. And you have to go through the journey of trying that until you realize that, yeah, it's just making the whole thing worse. And meanwhile, that I wanna talk a little bit more about that journey from denial to acceptance and understanding that your behavior, because the thing is you covet this behavior and you're like, it's not harming anyone else. I'm just gonna do this, like fuck off. but then realizing it is impacting others negatively. What do you mean by that when you started to realize that it was having a negative impact on her? The first time I really noticed it was actually when I was in grad school.

1:13:48So this would have been like 2009, 2010. Like Lindsay is a saint. She was, she's always been very financially insecure. Like she's worried about finances, you know, like that's kind of like, it scares her. And I think that, you know, so as I was going through grad school, her goal was she wanted me to finish without student loans. So she did not want me to take out a loan. And she worked two jobs to support us throughout school. And we only had one car. So she was run commuting to work while training as a marathoner so I could take the car to the university. And I didn't understand this till years later, but like I was dealing with some of that anxiety I had in other areas of my life, in school and all these things still through food.

1:14:38And we would get into fights over me spending money at school on food because she had us on a very tight budget. You know, and it was a budget that was, you know, it was realistic. We could do it. and the ultimate goal is we wanted to get out without loans. And so she was very adamant on that. And like, you know, she's working hard in all these other areas. I was struggling and starting to suffocate, dealing with these emotions. I didn't really understand why. So I would end up buying these things to make it temporarily like, you know, quell that anxiety. That would lead to arguments or fights and, you know, something I didn't wanna do.

1:15:16So that led to me starting to lie and hide those things which is not a good thing in a relationship. Yeah, so the intimacy gets eroded and the trust. I ultimately, I ended up taking out a student loan privately that I didn't tell her about. Yeah, you did. So that I could fund like these purchases. Now we're getting to the good part. Yeah, this is the shit I wanna hear about. So I could go out and like, you know, have a binge or whatever it was. And she didn't know about it because like I hated making her angry. That was the last thing I ever wanted to do, but I also didn't know how to not do these things.

1:15:53Right. There was some link where I was experiencing so much suffocation. The only thing I knew how to get through that was - The hungry ghost has to eat and you're gonna find a way. Yep. You're gonna have to be crafty. And then I would have so much guilt around what I just did and or shame of lying to her. And so that - The only solution to that being either starving yourself or eating, right? Like, so it just the vicious cycle perpetuates and you dig the hole deeper and deeper until you're alone in a dark room. Yeah. So she, needless to say, she wasn't real happy when she found out about the private loan, but then it was kind of like earlier, it's like, oh, I go on and like thing, like I somehow piece it back together and things are okay and never really addressed it.

1:16:35Again, I think it was a pride thing and it was an embarrassment thing, acknowledging that I was struggling, like, and I didn't wanna ask for help because I thought I could deal with it myself. I guess the next real big one was one of my compulsions with all the food related stuff was the counting. So I have this obsessive thought that invades my head, causes an incredible amount of anxiety. So I then count to reassure myself that what I was afraid of isn't happening. And for years, that compulsion was more of a physical. I had to like add it up on my phone's calculator. so I'd actually like just physically do that.

1:17:14And that actually started back in like 2004. Back when I was on a cross country trip with my coach and I don't know if you remember these days, but like you had to pay per text message back then. Like, and like my coach was like, man, you're just blowing up. I was like, no, like, yeah, you know, kind of popular. But I was so mad at people when they texted me because like I didn't have the money to pay for each text. So like I was actually just adding up on my phone's calculator, I wasn't texting people. but like I played it off as I was just on my phone all the time, I was just texting. But there were times over, I mean, it's happened numerous, but where, you know, I've almost wrecked my car cause I'm adding up on the calculator cause I can't not know where I am in the count.

1:17:57And the worse are if Lindsay sleeping in the passenger seat. Like, you know, we're coming down highway 50 on the windy road through the mountains of Tahoe. You know, she wakes up. Because you're like doing this weird OCD thing on your calculator on your phone that you can't put down while you're driving. I could not know. No, I understand. That's the powerlessness part of it, right? Yeah, and it makes you feel horrible. And the unmanageability. Like, so you think you're just doing this thing and nobody should bother you about it. And it takes a while before you realize that the chaos that you're creating all around you.

1:18:31Yeah. And then it doesn't matter whether it's drugs or alcohol or gambling or relationships or whatever, shopping. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like you say, replace X. And there are similar themes probably through a lot of this stuff. And then I found actually through therapy, starting to open up and talk about things also was hard because that made me realize how the things I would say about myself were hurting other people. Because obviously if I'm saying these things about me, I'm judging others indirectly through those types of comments. You know, like you said, like, I am a athletic built dude. Like if I think I have weight to lose, what does that say about you?

1:19:12Like, so like there's that like reflective piece that was really also hard. Cause I always thought it was just, you know, I'm dealing with myself and what I'm struggling with, but it's actually hurting other people. The judgment that you have towards everybody else as well. Which is a fascinating thing like - And nobody's judging, but nobody's judging you that way. Certainly not the way you're judging yourself. And I didn't find myself judging other people the way I judged myself. Of course not. And I think that's where, that's the secret. Like no one actually cares. We all think everyone's looking at us.

1:19:40No one is, like no one's actually paying attention to you. Just reflect for a moment on your own level of self obsession. Yeah. And just realize like, even if they took your 10 and you tune it down to five, people are just still walking around thinking about themselves. So like relax, dude. Yeah, and I think that's where, that's an important like turning point in anyone when you're struggling with something is that acknowledging that. And I poke fun at Lindsay all the time on this and she'll just kind of rouse me and say, you're not special. And it's like, it's true, I'm not special. Like we all have something going on.

1:20:13Like we internalize it. But that's the other attic thing, the sense of terminal uniqueness. You have no idea how different I am and how complicated and special my problems are and you'll never understand. and I can't ever talk about it with anybody because they wouldn't understand. And it's not until you're in that recovery process and you realize like, the person you're working with or the community that you're sharing with, like it's all, they're all like, yeah, of course, duh. Like exact, the facts of the, your story are gonna be different from the other person, but the thoughts and the emotions and the feelings are exactly the same.

1:20:50And this is something I hope does change is just resources for eating disorders or OCD improve and are more readily available. Because in some of those periods that I was describing when Lindsay was away at school, I considered attending AA because I couldn't find a support group. Like I couldn't find anyone to talk to. But in a small community like Mammoth, I was terrified that I would know every single person in that meeting. And some of them would be my patients. And it actually, the meeting was held in our clinic in the conference room. And like, so it was like too incestual that I didn't.

1:21:26And then there was that sense of like, well, I don't deal with alcohol. Like I can't show up there. That's not respectful to other people. And, but there, you know, I was seeking someone to like, hopefully like, you know, give me tools to work with, you know, and then eventually it led to actually getting therapy one-on-one, but in this country that's very cost prohibitive for a lot of people. Like it's challenging. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if I was secretary of that AA meeting, I would have let you in. I would have given you permission to. But yeah, so it is a weird thing and that's why it's anonymous, right?

1:22:01There's the stigma and the fear and the self judgment and the fear of others judging you. And how does that reflect? I mean, when it's in your clinic where you work, like it's close to home, it's scary. So was it just a daunting realization? Like, okay, I have to deal with this. How am I gonna deal with it? Or was there like a bottom where something bad happened and you're like, okay, like Lindsey's like, pack your bags, dude, or get help? Or, you know, how did it kind of go down? Thankfully that never happened, but I think it was more that realization that I don't see a future living this way in my head.

1:22:41You know, just getting through moments in a day or an entire day was so exhausting. it was hard to imagine actually being a partner to her. Like definitely we would never have kids. Like we would never have a dog. Like I couldn't handle any of that stuff. And I think that started to scare me that I just didn't, I didn't wanna be around basically. Like, so there wasn't like a particular moment or an action, but I saw where it was heading. And around those same, you know, in 2017, when she was away, we had a close friend. He had lost his life to suicide. And then I'd lost a few friends to the mountains.

1:23:25And I think there was this compounding thing of like the fragility of life where I had a pretty privileged life and I didn't lose anyone other than some grandparents that I started to really kind of like sit with how, yeah, like how fragile this existence is. And I think that really started to scare me that I didn't trust myself in terms of like, knowing I can't live this way. And so that was the impetus to finally, you know, seek out and start treatment. And Lindsey was very encouraging of that. I did cancel multiple my first visits because a combination of that still shame, like being embarrassed that I would have to talk to someone about it.

1:24:08And then also in the small community, my therapist was downstairs from my clinic. and in the waiting room were my patients. You're gonna see the guy in the bathroom. So like I'd go in and like the mental health services were with orthopedics. So I would be in the waiting room and patient X, what are you doing here, Tim? I'm like, oh, you know, I'm just, I'm checking up on you. You know, I'd spend some story. And so there was a lot of that just like embarrassment and shame where it probably took me almost two years before I actually told people in the waiting room, oh, I'm here for myself. Like I no longer had that story.

1:24:42It's so interesting that the help that you found was literally downstairs from where you worked the whole time. Yeah. And you could have, I mean, you could have gone to inpatient somewhere, you could have gone to a treatment center or something like that, but you found it in your own building all along. And that's been your recovery modality ever since? It's been the main one. I mean, there are times where I wanted or still want to go to like an inpatient facility, but I think there's part of my brain is like, no, no, you don't need that. Or like, oh, that's too expensive. And like worried about all these other collateral things.

1:25:20But what I realized is like, so it's been over three years now. I think the first, and so actually this is, I think important, like I was very resistant to trying medication. Like it was another one of those like, well, that's not me. I had some internal stigma around it, even though I never passed that on to my patients like when I learned they were taking meds like, cause it's therapeutic. You know, there are reasons why you might take a med. But three months ago, I started fluoxetine, which is an SSRI. And I was resistant for probably two years. And the nice thing is my therapist never pushed it, just said, hey, these are tools that are available, but let's try these things.

1:26:05And, you know, just if we might need to. And when it was maybe kind of suggested, I was very hands off on it. But I think that for me personally, really stalled a lot of my progress because in the last three months since starting this, I've actually been able to start to think a little clearer because like this like cloud of, we'll call it cloud of counting was so dense. I would go through a therapy session like every week and I'd leave feeling like I just got out of church camp, You know, like, you know, I'm filled with the spirit. I'm going to go preach to everyone. And then like five minutes later, I had forgotten it and reality struck me in the face.

1:26:45And I just was in this kind of cycle of back into it. And I eventually kind of connected with, okay, maybe that component of like the compulsive behavior or like, you know, the behaviors is preventing me from actually getting into these other things. So I would say I'm very grateful for where I'm at now, but I know there's still a lot to be done because I immediately just fall back into, you know, the old patterns. Like I raced, I was at a, actually, yeah, I was in Spain 10 days ago for a race. And like I almost derailed my entire like buildup because of a trigger that shouldn't trigger me anymore.

1:27:26And so it highlighted that, hey, you're still in this vulnerable state where your quiver is getting more robust. And like, I'm very proud of that, but I need to refine that and continue to work on it. And it seems it has to be like a daily practice. Yeah, I mean, you're three years in, you know, on some level that's early recovery, right? And you speak about it very eloquently and you have a grasp on the condition and how it's impacted you and the way forward, but the brain and its rewiring takes a little bit longer and those triggers don't go away. The recovery is about noticing them as they arise and having that extra moment to not act on them and to take a contrary action.

1:28:12And to the extent that the SSRI can function as a pattern interrupt or be another tool in that quiver, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's probably good that you didn't do it right away. Like you're, cause then you can sort of just divest, well, I'm taking this drug, I've dealt with it or whatever, but to shoulder the responsibility for your own recovery and realize that, you know, you're three years in and it's still, this is still, you know, it's like, you're not over it. Like this is something you live with and you develop these tools and those tools become rote and routine, but they need to be practiced.

1:28:49And, you know, cause in that dark, you know, lonely room, that disorder is doing its pushups, so to speak, and just waiting for a vulnerable moment to leap. Yeah, and I think that parallel with sport is really impactful where I didn't get here overnight and I cannot run it as quickly. Just like we didn't get to these levels of achievement overnight. It took year after year after season after season of building and it became a habit. And so, I think recovery is a habit. You have to continually practice it. and like you said, flex that muscle and get it stronger and be kind with yourself when you mess up.

1:29:29And that's something I am not good about. And I don't think a lot of people are is that self-compassion. Like the things we say to ourselves are horrible and you would never say that out loud. Like I don't even tell my therapist the things I say to myself, you know, like, but it's like, how do we, like, you can't live that way. You have to be compassionate towards yourself. That's a tough one. Like what are the tools that you practice to get over that piece? Cause I struggle with that. Just acknowledging that something is and try not to place judgment on it, good or bad. Like, okay, I overate today, that happened.

1:30:09Like that doesn't inherently mean it was bad. Like, but I have to accept it. I don't have to like what happened, but I can acknowledge that I'm human, that did occur and what am I gonna do next? And not get hung up on that good, because - Revelations. Yeah, exactly. Careful there. Because no amount of guilt will ever change the past and no amount of anxiety can shape the future. You really need to kind of bring it back into that present moment. And that's where I'm kind of starting to realize like I'm relearning all these things. like I still don't trust myself with food. Like I'm relearning my relationship with it.

1:30:53But in that, I'm also relearning like what it is to have fun. You know, like it's like, it's almost being like a kid again in terms of like all these new experiences of like, oh, like having a meal where you're not thinking about every micronutrient or macronutrient that's in your food and counting and being worried about all these things off in the future or what you just ate. Like, and actually listening to someone talk is a pretty cool thing. You know, like being truly immersed in a conversation and present, like, I mean, I think you facilitate like this really nice space because I don't know how long we've been going, but I haven't counted once.

1:31:29Like that's not, like I was counting this morning. I was worried about coming in and seeing you because like I haven't been running much. It's been a week off from my race, you know? So all these things, and I think that's part of the compassion thing is like thoughts are automatic. You can't control them. That's huge progress if you can sit and have a meal and not be doing the thing that you've done for decades, obsessively and compulsively, and get to the other end of the meal and realize you didn't do it. That's like massive progress. So I'm interested in the experience of going into a grocery store or entering a restaurant, like what was going on in your mind previously in terms of the foods that would find their way into it, like what you're thinking about when you're pushing the cart down the aisles then versus like what it's like now.

1:32:13and how, cause you gotta eat, right? And you're still trying to, you know, perform as an athlete. Like all of those are triggers that you can't avoid in your life. No. You have to confront them and find new strategies. So that's really tricky. The short answer is I fell into the cost, convenience and comfort choices. Like what could give me the fix the quickest? and that's normally something high sugar, high fat that I can just devour, just takes no prep. So it's processed foods. And again, like this is one of those, like I curated this notion that like, I'm the donut guy. Like I love donuts and I do, but like.

1:33:00Like how Scott Fable is the burrito guy. The burrito guy, like donuts and dirt were my thing, you know, like, and that is something that I still like, you know, but a donut is great. a dozen donuts is excessive, like probably for anyone. And so I think with the food stuff, I didn't know how to control. And there were times where like the, like the, like binges have a very clear diagnostic kind of criterion, but like the, you know, the uncontrolled, you know, kind of consumption would occur a lot. And it kind of just felt powerless. So one of the, you know, Strategies was just elimination, trying to keep things out of sight or out of our house.

1:33:43And the unfortunate thing, like you said, as an athlete, you have to train, so you have to fuel. And this is where I'm thankful that my bout with anorexia was in college. And over the last decade plus, it's been more of this, like I said, the OSFED, the Other Specified Feeding and Eating Disorder, where it's kind of like a mashup of a lot of different components. Because if I was still actually restricting to the point of weight loss, I would be perpetually injured. And as a distance runner, you have no career if you're continually injured. And that's where other people that have suffered or they suffered long enough in that critical time period of their adolescence or early twenties, their bone density could permanently be damaged.

1:34:22Like I feel grateful that I didn't have that occur because I've never thought of myself as talented, but actually my biggest superpower is my durability. So like, I've hated myself for never being thin enough or skinny enough. But the durability is - But the durability has allowed me to - And having a little more meat on your bones. And bigger bones. And I'm doing this 20 years later without injury because of that durability. And so that was never a deficit, but I think acknowledging our inadequacies aren't things that make us less worthy of acceptance or love, but you should celebrate that. But I ended up using running as really a mask to hide behind where if I lost my control around food or a meal or events, I knew I had this secret weapon.

1:35:16I could just go out and run four or five, six hours without eating or drinking. And I also would chalk it up to, I'm working on fat adaptation. Like, you know. I heard Killian talking about how he would go So like all day and like, so this is what we're supposed to be doing. Yeah, so, but then when you do that every day or every big training block, that's not how it's done. Like you have to be selective and you have to be thoughtful and really precise and recognize that the recovery is important. Where if I went out and ran for five hours without food or water, I wouldn't come home and then eat everything.

1:35:48I was in that euphoric state and I would not recover the way I should have. And I don't think any of this stuff, like I'm not of the belief that had I figured this I would have been a better performer. I just think I would have been happier throughout my entire career. Like, and I do, well, I do think there would have been more consistent performances. Like I could have avoided a lot of the huge pitfalls, failures or blowups I had, because a lot of those were mental or physical because I wasn't treating my body well. You know, I wasn't nourishing it. And that is hard because I'm in it to perform.

1:36:26And it has real life consequences of like, you can lose your job if you don't perform. Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly. So, there are amazing pressures on top of all of this, outside of just how you're interacting with your peers at work and your partner at home. We're like an hour and a half into this, we haven't even talked about running. It's like, we should probably point out that like, Tim's pretty good at running. Yeah, like - Or I can run my mouth. You have this, you're kind of like average in high school, you go to college, you start having some success. You take your shot at marathoning. I think you're like a 218 PR marathoner, two time Olympic trials qualifier.

1:37:13But recognizing you're not gonna kind of get to that next, you know, super elite level. You find the trail world, you have success. I think your first ultra, you won the 50K US championships. That's true. So like right out of the gate, distinguished Nike contract. And then UTMB in 2017, that was your top race, right? When you got third? Yeah, I got third in 2016 as well. Right, but that was 22 hours. And then the following year under 20. So the world is looking very bright. Everybody's looking at you. the next big thing. And you went a lot of races after that, tons of races, but you couldn't quite recapture some of those, you know, high highs or whatever.

1:38:03You've had, you know, some disappointing results over the years. And I'm sure a lot of that is wed to everything that we've been talking about today. So I'm interested not so much in going back and rehashing old stuff, but how you're thinking about your training and your racing now. I heard you say at some point that a big part of your motivation came from a place of anger and certainly in recovery, that's gotta be replaced with something better and more sustainable. So what does that look like for you now? Like it's gotta be a totally different relationship with the thing that you do professionally.

1:38:42It is. And to what we spoke about earlier, like thinking that maybe these things I battled were actually a superpower, there's been that fear of letting it go. And then when you pair it with subpar performances, you start to connect those dots and think, oh yeah, it's because you're not doing these things anymore. Sure, it would be so easy to go back and do that, yeah. And like, I have to fight that thought, but I always remind myself of how lonely and isolating and unhappy I was in those moments. Even when outwardly I was having success, like I was pretty empty. and there was never gonna be enough.

1:39:22So like if I had one UTMB in one of those years, I honestly think it would have been worse because I would have doubled down on everything because that was pre-starting therapy. I think my life would have really struggled as a result. If everything I basically am afraid of then was amplified to an 11 because of that success or notoriety, I would have completely crumbled. But I think some of what I'm really working on is making sure I acknowledge that, okay, I am very proud of the steps I'm taking in terms of recovery and separating that from my performances. So just because, you know, the last couple of years, I've had some pretty tough breaks on the biggest stage at Western States and at UTMB.

1:40:09And it would be easy to say, okay, you're past your prime, you know, you're washed up or you just don't have it anymore. or linking it, okay, it's because I'm not doing these things. But I'm confident that I just have had a string of bad luck. You know, and that's the sport. Ultra running is hard. Like, unless you're Courtney or Jim. Like, and I always wanted to be that, but I have to acknowledge I'm human. Like, I'm of this earth. And the reality is I'm gonna lose 99 % of the events I line up for. But I'm like, I still hold onto that one big dream that I'll eventually get it. and that's what keeps me showing up.

1:40:47And starting to see that like my individual success doesn't have to be the top of the podium. Like there's so many ways for me to achieve like my best result, even letting go of what other people do, which is hard. Yeah, one of the things that I got out of the KOROS doc, which also chronicled you running Western States, was the fact that even though you had a disappointing result, you were kind of fast out of the gate, things didn't go quite as you planned, that there was a joy and a sense of connection and like community that was really buoyant for you and very different from reaching the heights of being on the podium at UTMB and going under 20 hours.

1:41:37Like even though the result wasn't what you wanted, the lived experience of that that was somehow more meaningful and important. For sure. And that was, I think the community part was huge because in the past I've always prided myself on this lone wolf mentality. And which is laughable because no one does anything alone. We always have help from the moment we're born to any achievement, but there's something in that, is this like self-made athlete or X or entrepreneur or whatever it is and like that I can do it alone. and asking for help is a weakness or asking for help shows that I, like vulnerability is something I shouldn't lean into.

1:42:20And so I think with that first experience with States and even last year, yeah, last year, I welcoming my inner crew and actually letting them in to help me was so much more powerful and meaningful because I do feel like we created something more beautiful as a result for having been broken and then coming out the other side than if I just knocked it out of the park. You know, and what was fascinating is the amount of people that reached out afterwards and like shared their stories or wanted to connect because I hadn't given up on myself and I finished was far more reaching than if I had won the race.

1:42:55You know, and I think that was a like another important reminder that people aren't going to remember the races you won or the records you set or, you know, the IPOs you hit and like all these things. It's more like, hey, how did you make them feel? How did you connect on that personal level? what were you able to do together as a community? And that's something I'm really trying to lean into, which is hard because I'm still afraid of people's opinions. Like I can't shake that fully. Like I still find myself doing a body checks and all these things, but I'm getting better at confronting it and letting that anxiety kind of course through me and realize that my fears aren't matching reality.

1:43:33And then it starts to like, almost feel like, okay, that demon's starting to like, you know, become more of a whisper. Yeah, that's really beautifully put. I mean, the antidote to the isolation and the habitat in which the disease can really kind of linger is community, right? Like being with people, being transparent and open and vulnerable and trusting, letting people in. Like so much of it is just like allowing yourself to open the door to those people who already wanna help you, who've been waiting for you the whole time and are finally grateful and thankful that you're giving them that opportunity.

1:44:11And it's hard when you're stuck in that desperate cycle, but you've walked through that. And what I love is that now, like recognizing that and realizing that that is not only important, but maybe that's the whole thing, you end up starting this trail series, which is really just like an entrepreneurial, external manifestation of your recognition of how important it is to cultivate community and share the things that you love. And now like you're doing that. So it's one thing to just say, I'm gonna start a race series or start a race, but here it's like, it's so wed to your recovery in a really beautiful and authentic way.

1:44:54Thanks. Yeah. It's cool. And it was terrifying also. Have you ever seen that documentary, Fire Festival? Yes. I was 100 % convinced that was, they were gonna like do a docu-series on Trail Fest. How bad? And it was gonna be like people out in the woods. Well, it's kind of like, you know, just because you're a trail runner doesn't mean that you can be a race director and create a race. It's sort of like an actor in a movie thinking they can write, direct, and produce, or, you know, like you compete at UTMB. that's like a guy who shows up to do two days on the Avengers movie where there's a million moving pieces and thinking, well, I can do this, right?

1:45:37And then going and making your little indie movie, right? But you're on the second, you have the second one coming up? How many? It'll be our second one this September. And yeah, I mean, it was an amazing experience and I definitely credit all the people involved that helped make it happen. You know, all my local partners in Mammoth and it was beautiful. But I think what I've really recognized is as much as, as a kid, I dreamt of being that superstar sports athlete, naming the stars, you know, kind of like, you know, being a professional, I think it's a common dream for a lot of kids. You are a professional, you know that, right?

1:46:14Okay. It wouldn't matter how, like, if you had beaten Francois and Killian, there'd still be somebody else. Like you wouldn't, you would never feel like you actually There's never enough. That height that you had set for yourself. It's true, touche. But go ahead, sorry. No. And I think what I've recognized though is the impact I really wanna have on the sport or our community is giving other people those opportunities. And I learned from so many people that came before me, like reading their blogs, talking to them. And I know that the next generation of trail runners are gonna supersede anything, Killian, Francois, myself, Courtney, Rory, any of those people have done.

1:46:53And I hope that we just facilitate and give them opportunities and help foster them to achieve those things with a little bit less of the sidestepping that we may have occurred because they're gonna encounter some kind of fork in the road and they're gonna struggle. But hopefully they can learn from these experiences and recognize, hey, you don't need to change your body to meet sport. Through training, your body will adapt to what you're doing And if you're nurturing it and taking care of it and providing, you know, love to it. And I think the ultimate act of self-compassion would be to fuel your body properly and to actually recover.

1:47:31But I think those are the types of things that led me into Trail Fest where I see it as an opportunity to have a platform to welcome people to the majestic place of Mammoth, which is absolutely stunning. Like it's a beautiful place in California and allow them the opportunity to then go have this kind of self-discovery in a majestic place with a very supportive community. Like, I mean, last year was amazing. We had a woman from the Midwest. She showed up, had never been on a mountain in her life. She said that she had just heard me talking on a podcast and thought it was a good idea, so she signed up.

1:48:07And she finished her first ultra. Like, we had a guy from Florida. He was training on a treadmill with an oxygen mask. And when he crossed the line, he wept in my arms. Like he was just like, couldn't believe what he had just done. And I think that's the type of stuff that really fills me up where I wanna share those experiences with people. And what I told all of our runners last year was, this is gonna be hard. You will suffer. Like no one, I mean, that's life, right? There's no way of avoiding suffering, but what better place than in a supportive community like this, where if you do stumble, if you do fall, if you fail to make the cutoff, we're gonna pick you back up.

1:48:45You're gonna be okay. You're gonna have an amazing weekend and learning, watching, being inspired by other people. And then hopefully that excites you to go do another race somewhere. Right, like removing the veneer of intimidation from the thing that's already intimidating and like creating a welcome environment for all comers. I've had periods where I've definitely thought my life would be healthier without running, which is a strange thing to say because inherently running is not bad. Like running is an amazing gift to have, but my relationship with it was so kind of like skewed and twisted that it was leading to unhealthy behaviors and experiences.

1:49:29But running has also changed my life in so many positive ways. And that's what I want to share with other people. And I mean, I am all about the community, but I also love competition. Like I'm still that athlete. And I recognize that we need, and that is my job. I didn't perform for a couple of years and I basically was at risk of losing my job. And that's a hard thing to swallow. But I think there's that both and. You can celebrate the top level competition and strive for big audacious goals and foster community, individual wins and recognize that we all can have something to better ourselves as a result, even if you didn't top the podium.

1:50:12Well, not only are those two ands not mutually exclusive, they feed each other. Because I think the more that you serve this community of people through the series that you've created, the more fulfilled you'll become. And it will just make you feel more whole and a better version of yourself to approach the competitive side with the races that you're competing in. I mean, what does that like, Like, does that, you're still competitive, you're in the game, like, how are you thinking about like the big races that are coming up? Like what's on the calendar and what is your relationship to, you know, the buildup and you're, you know, how you're imagining your participation in them versus what it was like a couple of years ago.

1:50:58It's definitely shifted where, as you said, for a while anger drove me. And there've been times where I think, can I even perform if I'm not angry or if I don't have that like, you know, built up, you know, doubt that I'm trying to prove everyone wrong. And I think there are, and this might be, you know, that big question, what is your why? You know, like in life and sport, I think whys shift, they change. And mine has definitely been shifting and changing. And I think I don't, I've recognized I don't need that anger or that doubt or that insecurity to drive my good performances. I need to lean more into that community, that love, that self-acceptance.

1:51:38And that's gonna allow me to self-actualize. And I do understand that that's a bit, maybe it's kind of a privilege and indulgent to be able to be at that place. But I'm really thankful, especially right now, I switched sponsors this year and that was hard. To be honest, I thought I was gonna grow old with Hoka. I thought it was gonna be, I was gonna retire and we had a longstanding relationship. But several years of underperforming, like it caught up to me, you know? And that's the reality of sport. And I have a great relationship with everyone there. I just saw him a couple of weeks ago at a race and saw my manager and marketing director.

1:52:15And I understood that. And going back to earlier, I had some friends that top of their game, Meb loses his sponsorship. Then he goes on to win the Olympic trials, medal at the Olympics, win New York. and, or no, he won Boston. And so I, you know, it was hard though, recognizing like, hey, I'm no longer valued, but that was business. And my goals, my dreams, and what I believe I'm capable of are still there. And that's where I'm really thankful, you know, with Kraft coming in. When I started talking to them, they had, it really reminded me of like my early days talking with, you know, the small, you know, the co-founders of Hoka.

1:52:55And they're excited about the sport. they're kind of creating this misfit group of athletes and inspiring people that want to change the game, you know, from the footwear to the stories we tell to the ways we engage with the community. I mean, the way they stood by Tommy was unbelievable. Yeah, it's amazing. It just like, it reminded me that, hey, these are the people I wanna surround myself with. And they most importantly believed in me. You know, they said, hey, we don't think you're done. We just think you've had a tough string. And that's really what I've leaned into is my inner community with the brand and with our team and myself and my therapist and everyone that's in my circle of recognizing I still have these big goals.

1:53:40I know what it takes to achieve them. And I'm working towards that. And I don't have to have this sense of humility anymore. Like for a while, I thought it was bad to say I wanted to win UTMB. So like I'd skirt it and say, I'm just out here to have fun. I'm gonna, you know, enjoy the vistas. And the reality is you wouldn't do this type of training, put in the hours, see like year after year, or, you know, destroy your body through the Alps if something wasn't driving you. And it's okay to want to win, but I'm separating that like, I don't need to win anymore to complete myself as a person, but I want to win and I'm training with intention to win.

1:54:20And I believe I can win and that I will win, but I don't need that to validate myself anymore. And I think I've never been able to authentically say that. I may have said it, but I didn't believe it. Like I still thought my acceptance and love was contingent on achievement or something external where, and as you said, there's never enough. That's massive growth. I mean, in this evolution of your why and how you define your why and what motivates you as you pivot away from these old behaviors and patterns that don't serve you into this different, more nourishing way that involves the trail series and the community and understanding that you don't have to earn love and all of that.

1:55:08You don't get the dopamine hits that anger is gonna give you or these other spikes that you've come to rely on over the years and have mistakenly associated with performance. but what you're doing is building a really solid foundation for a healthier approach to being a competitive athlete and you are taking out an insurance policy on your longevity, but it takes a while to build that foundation, right? So you're still, you haven't emerged from the foundation stage yet to actually show people what you're capable of, which I think makes it a very exciting time for you. And that's where it would have been really easy to default where dropped out at UTMB the last two years again.

1:55:55Like last year I had COVID finally caught me after two and a half years. I'm gonna mindfully relapse into my food, you know, idiocy just so I can extract this one performance and make sure that I'm holding onto these sponsors. And then I'll go back to the recovery stuff. And then it'll be fine. And I'm really proud that I didn't do that. And I think it's just that like affirming and a reminder that just because you do everything right doesn't mean you're actually gonna get the outcome you wanted. Like life isn't fair. Like you're not gonna get what you deserve, but you keep showing up. You know, you keep trying, you keep giving the effort.

1:56:30And at some point I am a believer that things will work out in a positive way, but you have to go through a lot of shit to get there. You know, and that's where I love that saying, I think it came from vanilla sky. You know, the sweet is never as sweet without the sour. and it's like, we all have sour in our life, you know? And instead of trying to numb that sour, you know, let it fuel you into something else. Cause once you get the sweet, it's gonna be really good. It's still a pretty new sport, right? And we've, there's been a lot of growing pains and, you know, it's sort of emerging out of this phase of dirt baggery into like real money.

1:57:07And, you know, we saw Ironman take over UTMB. And like, these are big changes and I'm sure not everyone's happy about them, but they're a reflection of growing interest in the sport, more people participating in them, money coming in, sponsored, like all of this stuff, right? And meanwhile, athletes getting more and more sophisticated and savvy about how to race and train. So prior or in maybe the flight or the generation that preceded yours, there were a lot of people who would come, they would arrive on the scene and they would just destroy everybody and be unbelievable and then would be completely unable to ever replicate those performances and are never to be heard from again.

1:57:56Only a couple outliers had any type of longevity in the sport. Now we see, there's Killian and I mean, Courtney, people like that, I'm interested in why you think I think they're so good or so much better than everyone else. But, you know, what are you learning about what's required to have that kind of longevity or to maintain an elite level of performance over the course of, you know, a respectable amount of time as opposed to a flash in the pan. And also as a kind of side note to that, we saw what happened with Anton Krupika, right? Like he was like, he was the dude gone forever back, like had an incredible performance last year.

1:58:38like that's very cool. Like I think that, you know, just because maybe to your point, like you've had a downturn, you know, there's still sweet to be mind on the other side of sour. Yeah, in any endurance endeavor or sport. I feel that the patient will ultimately be rewarded. Like it's consistency is key. That is the underappreciated skillset in endurance. Like it's about stacking hours, season after season, year after year and keep showing up. You know, I talked to a close friend one time and I said, you know, or he kind of asked a similar thing. Like, you know, what sets people apart? And I, like my response was, it's hard to beat someone when they don't know when to stop showing up.

1:59:28Like, is that like Rocky Balboa? Like you just - It's true in anything. Like you just, you gotta grind. Right. And I think that's something I really hope to do in our sport is set the next generation up to have more consistency and have the ability to not only self-actualize, but avoid burnout. You know, and so if we can do that collectively as a community, I think we will have won. So that if, you know, your kids wanna get into ultra running they know that the healthy way to do that is to nurture their body or if they wanna get into marathon or sport or anything, like, you know, don't try to manipulate your body to mirror some idealistic version you've seen of X because you don't know what's actually behind that.

2:00:18Like, I mean, if someone was modeling me, they were modeling after a very sick, unhealthy person, like, and I wouldn't want that to happen. You know, so I hope that we change those conversations. And then I think through that discourse and discussion, we can get more people to basically adhere to, you know, the values and norms that are going to allow for healthy, like relationship with a sport. And that's going to just trickle down into all aspects and make the community stronger. I think that's probably, you know, going to be the most important thing. And you mentioned the, you know, big players coming in and kind of, you know, maybe changing, you know, the face of the sport.

2:00:55And that's happening. Change is hard. Like it's a growth is not, does not come easy. It, I remember back in school, undergrad, we, we had to read this book, Omnivore's Dilemma. Sure. And yeah, you would, you would know, right? You know a little bit about nutrition. It's, and like, I believe he talks about like, you know, our choices, like we vote with our dollars, vote with our choices. And I feel like the same is true for our community and sport. You know, people are always going to show up and support, purchase, and align themselves with people and brands and companies that share similar values.

2:01:36And we have collectively a lot of power to do that. And I think our group of trail runners can do that. So, like, if we don't like things that are going a certain way, you know, we just can make those choices on our own. But I think that I am excited to see where it goes because as we get more opportunities for athletes, I think we're gonna see, you know, even more transcendent performances. Like we're gonna get more Courtney's and Jim's out there in the next generation as we make trail winning cool. It's inevitable. In the same way, you know, if you look over the history of Ironman or triathlon, the people that would win were people who were really good at one of the three.

2:02:14And if you happen to be good at two of the three, you were like, you know, beyond, you know, so you would be, you know, a marathon runner or a collegiate track and field athlete could do well. Now you have to be unbelievable at all three and that's not a guarantee of anything. And now in the world of ultra running, we're seeing you Walmsley, like people that are Olympic trials qualifiers in marathon going into trail running, like you're only gonna see more and more elite performers, especially when the money comes in. Like, you know, it's like, if you're an elite track and field athlete or marathoner, why are you gonna fuck around in the trail world when there's no money and you could just get hurt or whatever, there's too much risk involved.

2:02:55But, you know, that's changing. And I think it's only gonna attract a higher caliber of athlete and who's approaching it, you know, not from, well, I eat granola bars and do whatever to like being very precise and intentional about what they're doing. You know, I think there's a lot of room for growth here. Oh, for sure. I mean, that's where I feel lucky that I came up when I did, because if I had been this athlete, and this goes back to even high school, like I wasn't recruited out of high school to go to college. I walked on. I wasn't an All-American in college. I left without that athlete that every collegiate athlete wants, but I kept going.

2:03:31And like, I just didn't give up on myself. But I think with the sport, like, and I was fortunate because like when I was in high school, we aren't where we are 20 years later in such good guidance for high school kids. Like the level of training they're getting is next level. And we're gonna see that in trail running. If I'd come up into trail running 10 years from now, I couldn't have gotten away with all the shit I did with starving myself and not treating my body well. And I hope that people recognize that the only way to really self-actualize or get the best out of yourself is to do these things properly.

2:04:04No shortcuts. There aren't any hacks out there that are gonna get you there. like a hack is the quickest way to get you on the injury list. Like you're going to end up with stress fractures, you know, a whole host of things. And there are times where I wonder like, was all of that abuse I did to my body over the last 15 years, like, is it finally catching up on me? It's like, maybe. And if that's the case, like I had a good run and like, I'm not going to like let that deter me from what I want to do next. Like, but I'm confident that that isn't the case. Like, I think that that is my superpower is the durability and I just have been fortunate to have messed up so many times and still had second chances.

2:04:45So that's kinda - Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah, I get it. I think like you're describing like, oh, if I starve myself or do this, this thing that I know is not in my long-term best interest, but probably will help me short-term performance-wise. And when you're like young and you're a gunner and that race is everything, you'll take that bargain every time. And I'm sure tons of athletes do that. It's like, who cares? I never sport. I'll deal with the whatever, my bone density, 10 years from now, I don't care about that. What I care about is what's gonna happen in six weeks. So it's really hard to overcome that, especially with younger people who have a hard time thinking long-term about anything.

2:05:26Like these are decisions that start to make sense when you're in the twilight of your career and you're trying to keep going, right? We're in that rocking chair moment where we can just reflect on everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's where like in the social media age, we are rewarded with instant gratification. So like undoing or not undoing, but like acknowledging that's one path, not the only path and learning to pleasure delay, I think is really important to instill with anybody in any endeavor. Like, because that's where the greatest, you know, benefit's gonna come. Sure. Is if you can display some emotional control to then at some point reap the rewards.

2:06:07And I think a good way to kind of, I wanna close this with a little bit of guidance and help for either people who are in the midst of suffering from some version of what you've gone through and the alarm bells are going off in their minds because they're relating to what you have to share or people who have people in their life that they are confused around how to best help them. and for the teachers and the coaches and the parents to understand how to look out for this and what the warning signs are. So if you're a basketball coach or a track and field coach or you're a seventh grade teacher, or you're a parent whose kids are now adolescents and you're noticing, hey, this thing around food doesn't look quite so right.

2:06:53Like what have you learned about what to look out for? And once you have a sense that maybe something might be awry, like how do you navigate that? How do you address that with that person? How, you know, what is the way, and this is obviously not, there's no easy way to answer this, but you know, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who are like, I know this person needs help. I don't know how to help them. What should I do? That's another two hour podcast. We could go, can you spend hours on this? I think Lindsey was out walking. That was like eight questions, so. I'm good, I got my coffee still.

2:07:25I think it's important to let people know that you love them. Like that's at the heart of it. Like you are there, you love them, you know, for who they are. You aren't gonna be the one responsible to fix someone. And that's what I think a lot of us try to do is we want to be the fixer. And in reality, with anyone that might be suffering from something, like they need to be, they need to autonomously make that decision to seek help or get treatment. But you need to show that you support them. Not enable them, but support them. And I think then it's about collaboratively reaching out to people that are the professionals.

2:08:05So if you're a coach and you see this kind of behavior starting in someone that you're worried about, I think bringing in a professional to help would be good. Getting the school psychologist or the nutritionist, but I think it's important to really not approach people as you're doing something wrong. You need to come to them from a place of love and let them know that, hey, like, you know, we're worried about this and let's, you know, talk about what's going on. Because I think conversation is the root of everything. Like, I wish I had been strong enough to have conversations with people when I was growing up or in college or with Lindsay early on.

2:08:42Like a myriad of reasons I didn't, but I think not talking allowed me to basically build unchecked narratives in my head that just ruminated, got deeper, the roots got deeper. and eventually like it just, you know, started to strangle everything. But talking and conversation also aren't light switches. You didn't grow up in a household where you learned how to do that or where that was modeled or practiced. So if there isn't a habit or a practice or an environment where trust and kind of open dialogue is already kind of in place, that takes a lot of time to build and establish. You can't just, you know, come to somebody who's never, who has no, who's not used to that and say it's time to talk and expect that person to be open with you.

2:09:28Yeah, no, not at all. And I think that's where you just have to approach like all these conversations or people kind of with the grace of recognizing, meet them where they are. Don't expect a quick fix. You know, it's not a light switch. We're dealing with dimmer switches. You know, it's gonna be a slow up and down. And that's the thing with recovery is we expect it to be linear and it's anything but, right? Like I'm sure you have felt that or you, you know, and it's very circuitous. And it's, you know, what we think it looks like is, you know, this A to B, you know, vertical line or, you know, like, you know, going up on the graph, but it's just convoluted.

2:10:06It's messed up. And being kind to yourself or others when they aren't making the progress we expect because each person's timeframe is going to be different. But I think, you know, it's probably important. But, yeah, having the conversations is not going to be easy. And that's the hardest thing. Like, I've seen people suffer and I can't reach out to talk to them because I'm afraid I don't have the right words. And I think that's what prevents a lot of us from doing a lot of things is the fear of not having the right thing to say. And sometimes just being there or saying something is what someone needs to hear.

2:10:36You know, I think, I don't know, I really try to tell myself like, you know, stop measuring and start living. You know, life's too short to count all your Cheerios. You know, it's like, you really need to get out of that model and realize that the beauty that is in life is if you're actually in the game. You can't just be a spectator in your own life and window shop while everyone else is feasting on the goods of what being alive is. And I think anyone that might be suffering or has questions, just know that the ultimate act of courage would be just to talk to someone. And it's never gonna be as bad as you think it is.

2:11:19Like we said, no one's watching us. Like no one, well, people might be watching us on YouTube right now, but it's, you know, no one cares the way we care, you know? I think that's very well said, yeah. I mean, obviously, certainly if you're listening or watching to this and you're having a sense that maybe you need to talk to somebody about your own behavior, it would be absolutely key to reach out to somebody you trust, somebody who you feel will receive you with grace and not judgment. I mean, the judgment piece I think is huge, but you're not gonna be able to solve the problem in your head despite what you think.

2:11:55And it's not going to go away because you're pushing it down. The only solution is going to come by raising your hand, inviting people in and not only asking for help, but receiving that help when people offer to help you. And that is much harder than trying to grit your teeth and figure it out yourself. Because, well, if I figure it out myself, then I don't have to tell anybody about it, right? That's the thing. And I think if you're somebody who's bearing witness to somebody suffering, whether you're a parent or a friend or a colleague or a teacher or a coach, it can be very confusing because if you don't have any personal familiarity with this, it defies logic.

2:12:40Why can't they just fix this? Or why don't they stop doing that thing? Can't they see? and I can see what they need to do and they can't. And so with that, like when you're kind of thinking of it in that context, when you approach that person, you're gonna be coming at them like pretty aggressively or with a lot of judgment or confusion. And that's gonna put that person on their heels and defensive. So you gotta find a way to broach it in a compassionate way, by draining it of any judgment and just coming at it with love and curiosity. And to your point, like not being codependent, I'm not here to like enable you.

2:13:19I'm not gonna keep your secret. And, you know, maybe I can't even be your friend right now, but like when you're ready, I love you. And when you're ready for help, like, I want you to, I want me to be your first call. Like just, and it's hard, man. You know, like when people who care about the people who are suffering, they're suffering themselves and they can't help that person unless they're taking care of themselves. So, you know, whether it's Al-Anon or finding their own community with people who have, you know, navigated that same thing, I think becomes really key. That's spot on. And I love what you said, it's that like non-judgmental awareness of the situation.

2:13:55Like you don't have to place judgment on what they're doing. You could say, I don't even need you to stop. I'm not telling you to stop. I'm just saying like, I know what's up. Yeah, exactly. Like, cause that's gonna disarm people. Like all of us are conditioned where if you come in, I'm gonna immediately like, you know, be resistant and, you know, lie my way out of something, you know, because there is that shame component that you're wrapped up in and that will lead you to do things you don't want to do. But I think that, you know, coming in with that non-judgmental kind of awareness of the situation and then also educating yourself.

2:14:29You know, I think a lot of that, you know, the misconception of what OCD or eating disorders are, like with OCD, it's like, like, oh, I'm compulsive. Like, you know, like I like to arrange my pen certain ways. And like, so it kind of gets maybe reduced into like something that's more like a personality trait versus like an actual disorder. And I think just educating ourselves on, no, this is something that's actually leading people to suffer. Like it's intrusive, it's unwelcomed and it's debilitating. And progressive. And progressive. Like, and what we said earlier, if you think about anorexia nervosa, which is one of the major eating disorders has the highest rate of mortality out of any mental health illness.

2:15:12That's scary. Like, so it's not just a, oh yeah, we all overeat or we all have like problems with food. It's like, yes, that's true. But let's educate ourselves that some people really are suffering. And I think that's the important piece where like, then we can come to them with compassion. It's not just, oh yeah, like I don't like how my legs look in the mirror or, you know, how my shirt fit today. Like, cause all of those are true. And I think it's just recognizing that, okay, like this is a serious thing and not to like, you know, belittle it or, you know, kind of reduce it in your mind. I think that's a huge step.

2:15:45Because then the person that's suffering will feel a little more welcomed that, okay, like you actually understand, you know, it's not like, oh yeah, like I count my calories. It's like, well, did you count 300 times today? Like, did you? I'll win that game. You want to go to war over like this? Like, So it's kind of like, you know, but it's all a spectrum. And I loved what you said earlier. It's like, it's about us managing our feelings and our triggers because we're not gonna live in a world and I don't want a world where everyone's tiptoeing around and like they can't say certain things. You know, I wish I'd be respectful, but I need to manage myself in the world.

2:16:19That's an open environment that people are gonna say, do and act in different ways. And I can't expect them to always like coddle me. Right, Tim, is it okay if I eat in front of you? Exactly. Exactly, so it's about like finding that balance point, but like just being respective of where people are. Yeah, and understand that it's a disorder, it's a disease, it's not the person, like decoupling the identity or that person you know from the behavior, I think is really important. And realizing that it's a coping strategy born out of a feeling of being less than or out of control or being incapable of giving yourself the level of self-love that we all deserve, right?

2:17:06And that recovery is that journey towards self-acceptance and self-love as the antidote to that darkness. And it can feel like I'm broken. I'm the thing that's wrong, not acknowledging it. Oh, I do have this illness. And it's kind of like the computer is glitching. We don't just throw the computer away. Like you upload the software better. You just like give it a patch. And it's like, we just gotta like, you know, kind of work on the, you know, how we're dealing with things. Like, but I think that prevents people from asking for help or mentioning, cause it feels like they're broken. If you knew just how bad I am and how broken I am and how beyond repair the situation is, like that's the mentality.

2:17:49And it's, I mean, I'll be honest, letting go of the reassurance seeking behavior is very scary. Like I've had times where I don't know where I am in the world. It's so unsettling because I'm trying to actively fight whatever behavior was going to reassure me that it was okay. And that's a terrifying thing. So it's like, you're caught in this massive storm out in the ocean and you had this shitty little life raft and like arm floaties and you were terrified, but you felt some sort of comfort with your little rafting your arm floaties compared to when you have the calm open sea and you're all alone and there's nothing else there.

2:18:30Like what am I supposed to do with all this like serenity? I'd rather have the noise in my head and like grip on white knuckling these little things. Then that, but eventually you recognize that the calmness and the serenity is a state you can live in and trust. But as you said, it's gonna take time. And also it's gonna take resources and it's not easy like to get those resources. Like when I left my job as a full-time therapist, I lost my health insurance. So the best thing for me to deal with some of these anxiety inducing things was leaving that full-time employment. And by doing so, I lost access to my healthcare.

2:19:11Right, you couldn't pay for the recovery resources that you needed, yeah. Which, you know, that was a shame. That's fucked up. Yeah, that sucked. And I mean, again, I'm at a place where, I mean, I had two other careers going, a pro athlete and a race director, like, you know, building something. So I was really like burning myself out with three things, just filling the void. But it shouldn't be that way. I wish we had access to resources that, you know, because people are struggling. And it's always gonna be that way. But there is, like you said, everything is impermanent. And there was something I came across in my recovery is the term wabi-sabi.

2:19:53And it's this Japanese philosophy taken from nature that everything is impermanent, imperfect, and incomplete. And I think it's a beautiful way to kind of look at ourselves, our situations, the world. Things are imperfect. They are impermanent. It will pass. And we know that in ultras, Whereas you could be in the lowest low you've ever had. And somehow you went 70 more miles after that because you didn't give in yet, you know, it'll pass. But then it's also incomplete. Like our recoveries aren't complete, you know, our careers, our relationships. And I think just like me leaning into that and accepting that, oh, like someone that wanted control on everything, someone that like was tied up in like perfectionism and thinking that that was the way to, you know, salvation or, you know, being loved or accepted.

2:20:45and recognize that everything is impermanent, imperfect, and incomplete. Like it helped me kind of like start to like settle in to the muck and just be like, oh, okay. Like I can live with that. Like, you know, cause I'm chasing this figment of something that doesn't exist. It's theoretical perfection. You've convinced yourself it's real, but it doesn't exist. Yeah, it is an impossibility anyway. Yeah, so. And there's a relief in that. Yeah. But also discomfort. And that's what we like to numb ourselves, Rich. Like we, I have really learned and I continue to remind myself that like learning to let go is far more powerful than holding on.

2:21:27And that's not easy, but I'm trying to let go of more and more things and trust. And that's a very counterintuitive edict in and of itself, but to tell a hard driving, very competitive athlete or business person or just ambitious person in general, that the better way is in the surrender and the letting go. You might as well be speaking, you know, Mongolian. Like it just doesn't, it's like, what are you talking about? Like the whole reason I'm here and what fuels me is my ability to like double down on that self will and hold on even more tightly and push, push, push, push. So the subtlety or the kind of being in that state where you're untethering yourself from results and floating in that calm body of water is like, yeah, it's like being on Mars.

2:22:23Like that is not, it takes a long time to really understand what that means and to grok the fact that it's not about, it's not about like giving up. Yeah. It's just tapping into a more powerful and more sustainable fuel source that not only will lead you exactly towards the same things that you're ambitious about, although your goals may change, you know, you might be ready for that. But also, yeah, you'll be able to do it with joy and with others and all of these things that you have decided are indulgences or distractions. Totally. And that's, I think that was key. what you said is the, you don't have to like it.

2:23:07Like, you know, is that like acknowledging this the radical acceptance idea of, hey, this is what's occurring. You don't have to like it, but what are you gonna do about it? You know, what's that next step? And I think that's where people get stuck sometimes. Well, that's why, you know, the universe is wired to, you know, create these bottoms. So you can have these reckonings and these realizations, which are gifts, right? Like, so you crashed into the wall and now you're on the other side and you've had, you're like, oh my God. And now we're talking about it. But the fact that somebody listening to this might be struck and short of hitting their own bottom is gonna say, I'm gonna do that.

2:23:42Like that's unlikely, it's probably not gonna happen. You know, you have to, it's an experiential thing. You might have to suffer a certain kind of pain that's different than the pain you suffer when you're running an ultra marathon, a psychic pain, a spiritual, emotional pain. And those tend to be levers and motivators to do things a different way. For sure, without a doubt. And I think you're spot on, like you have to go through that resistance. And I don't know, thinking about running 100 miles through the Alps doesn't seem as scary or daunting as like living with your own thoughts when you're like really in that.

2:24:22Which is the source of all of man's suffering, of course. His inability to sit alone for five minutes with his own thoughts. We're gonna fill that void with something. Yeah, I'm gonna go like the suffering in the mountains is really just an elaborate distraction from having to sit alone with yourself for a couple of minutes. And how often do people now take their phone or their podcasts or whatever, while a lot of people will be on their run or their bike listening to this. And something I've actually done that I think is really great for where I'm at is I've unplugged when I go run, no more stimulus.

2:24:54I was almost using that, like I forgot what running felt like. Cause I was like, there was always something I was trying to get out of it outside of, and like I was just overstimulating. And I went for a run and I literally was just listening to my breath, my footfalls, the birds. And it was, it like reminded me of me as a kid running. It was like, oh, like that's what I love about running. Like moving through space quickly, you know, kind of feeling effortless and floating. And you described the flow state just a little bit ago, like, you know, letting everything go, letting go of the control, not thinking, getting rid of that analysis by paralysis, that's where you're gonna get produce your best work, whatever it is, if you're an artist or an athlete, or if you're in medicine, or I feel like you do have to let go of that control, stop thinking and trust the process.

2:25:44Well, to be continued, man, I can't wait to see what you're gonna manifest and do. I'm excited about the trail series. I'm excited about the performances on the horizon, but more than anything, I think just this message that you're carrying has a very kind of important vibration to it. You're an amazing vehicle to speak about this thing. And my goal for this podcast really honestly is to just make more people aware of what you went through so others don't have to. And for that message to ripple out and transcend beyond like the trail community to a larger population of people. Because I do think, as I said at the outset, it's important when men speak up about this, because I do think that there are just so many men out there who are suffering in silence with this because there isn't a culture of permissiveness around talking about it.

2:26:45So I applaud you for the courage and the vulnerability that you've demonstrated in kind of shouldering the responsibility like in a public service announcement way to talk about this stuff. So it was really cool. And I appreciate your openness, man. Thank you. And thanks for sharing those stories because it makes a difference. Someone out there will hear one of your podcasts and it'll save them. So yeah. We'll see, man. All I do is I put it out there and then it's up to them, right? Yeah. I'm surrendering. I am surrendering this podcast to the world, Tim. Wait, can we do the piece? We're gonna do it, we're not there yet.

2:27:22I was gonna get, this was like my big opportunity. Oh, did I jump the gun? Yeah, like his is like, I'm gonna softball, I'm throwing you, I'm tossing you the softball for the plug. Like, where do you want, you're on Instagram, you got the, like, what are the URLs? Where do you want people to go? I'm sure people are gonna wanna learn more about the Mammoth Trail series in September. So where can they find out more about that? MammothTrailFest.com would be it. It's pretty cool, we have over a thousand people signed up for this year. And there aren't too many spots left. So if anyone's interested in joining, they should get on it.

2:27:57And someday I'll learn how to do thoughtful merch. But right now we don't really have much. You brought me some swag, but yeah, you gotta up your... We don't do that either. We probably should do that. It's like, do people really want coffee mugs? I guess they do as I take a sip out of my branded coffee mug that I can't sell because this is the only one we have. But I would just encourage people if they were interested, like, and they aren't gonna run, like, just come join the party. Like, we're looking for, like, what we're terming the Sierra Soiree. Like, it's just gonna be this big gathering of our community at the end of September before the snow hits the Sierra.

2:28:31And if you can't make it, go out to one of your local trail events. Like, volunteer, join in. Just see how powerful it is watching people overcome, you know, their doubts, their fears, these incredible, you know, endurance feats. And just go be part of it. I think it's gonna make all this a little bit better. So, I would really just encourage people to get out there and join the trail community. It's the best place in the world. Cool, man. Yeah. Right on. Thank you. Well, thanks again for sharing. I'm gonna let you, now here it is. You do it, you take it. Peace, plants.

2:29:13That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change in the Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube and leave a review and or comment.

2:29:58Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake.

2:30:35Portraits by Davey Greenberg Graphic and social media assets Courtesy of Daniel Solis As well as Dan Drake Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting And website management And of course our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt And Harry Mathis Appreciate the love, love the support See you back here soon Peace Plants Namaste

2:31:09Thank you.