Thrilling Tales Of Modern Men: Danny McBride On Ego, Grievance & The Stories Men Tell Themselves

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29:16When did you first know that this is going to work out? You know, I don't, it took a while to realize, even when it started to work out, there's still just the idea of like, there's no way that this will continue to work out, you know? So I think there's been a level of always sort of being apprehensive of, oh, it's all working. I think that, you know, once Foot Fist Way got made and everything, we started getting all these opportunities. It was really like a whirlwind. But even that didn't go exactly to plan, right? Wasn't the original idea you're going to go to Sundance and light the world on fire?

29:52Yeah. And then we went, it didn't sell there. Like, uh, you know, we, we made that movie for 75 grand. We shot it in, you know, less than three weeks. And, uh, Jody Hill and myself had been out in LA for a while at that point, all just trying to make a living. And I think both of us were at the point where we're both realists and we're like, we've been out here for a while, but I'm not, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, we're in our mid twenties. I don't want to look, I don't want to be here in my forties, like, just like pretending, like I'm trying to make movies. Like I want to, you know, we got to, there's still time to pivot.

30:22We're young. So we, you know. Did you have a plan B or not? You don't seem like a plan B guy. You know, I didn't really have a plan B. I was, I felt like if we, if we really stuck with it, that we would be able to eventually find that success. And so I think for a while we got out here and I think you're kind of like waiting for someone to find you. And I think Jody and I had been out here long enough that we were like, I think it's just, I think it's time to show them what we can do. And then hopefully, you know, opportunities will come from that. And so Will Ferrell and Adam McKay, like the movie circulated, some interesting people saw it, those guys jumped on it and decided to distribute it.

31:01They decided to distribute it. And then that, uh, that really launched everything. I mean, I was, you know, doing these interviews for this book and just thinking about being walked through the history of it. It's really sort of insane because when that, you I went from not having a job to that movie coming out in Sundance in 2006. And in the next year, basically in one year, I booked Hot Rod, then Drillbit Taylor, Heartbreak Kid, Pineapple Express, the pilot for Eastbound, and then Tropic Thunder. And so it was going from never having any experience in this industry at all to like that's what the next year looked like.

31:38It happened like in such a compressed period of time. Because I think when you did Tropic Thunder, I mean, you were only, you were like a year into this. I was a year into it. I had met Ben on The Heartbreak Kid and he showed me the script and wanted to know if I wanted to play. And I mean, even just meeting Ben Stiller was awesome. I mean, I always loved Ben Stiller and I really loved him as a director too. I thought that, you know, I had, you know, I loved Cable Guy when it came out. I remember thinking like how dark and awesome it was. And so the idea that he was making a movie like that and I remember reading it and just like, this is awesome.

32:09I love the scope of it. It's so funny. And he's going to direct it. And yeah, it was just a real pinch me moment to be involved with that. I mean, I, I remember going to the table read for that. And you're just like, I mean, every, it was, that was insane. Yeah. It was just a murderer's bro of talent, man. It was like, what am I doing here? He was trembling every time my guy had to speak. Like, oh, Jesus. I mean, that's an all timer. And that really was this golden age in, you know, feature comedies. Like it's, they're, they're so rare and few and far between these days. Like the culture has shifted.

32:40It seems like all the comedic sensibility is now in television. And obviously that's your, you know, that's your, that's your sweet spot. Why do you think that is? Why aren't we, why don't we see, like, what happened to the Wedding Crashers and something about Mary's and all of that, that we used to see pretty consistently coming out? You know, I, I, you know, I'm not, you know, I think there's probably a bunch of reasons. I do think that TV has allowed, you know, comedy really works well when it's niche, you know, like when people get really specific about their sensibilities. And there is always something about you and your friends finding that like weird comedy that speaks to you guys, you know, and it becomes your shared language.

33:19And I think TV has allowed that. It's allowed you to have all these really unique voices from the Nathan Fielders, the Tim Robinson to Eric Andre. And, you know, this stuff is is really specific and it's really funny. And if that stuff had to be boiled down to like a four quadrant, you know, movie in the theaters that like worked for everyone, like who knows if those voices would would be as funny by the time it did that, you know. So I definitely think that that has given an opportunity for comedians to get really specific and find their audience and have success in it. But I also kind of think it just kind of happened that like that group of all the guys who had the power, they all just got rich and all stopped making comedies at the same time.

33:59You know, and so then it was like I think it was like left where there was suddenly like everybody was wanting to get into serious movies. But ultimately, and, you know, it's not like anybody could make Tropic Thunder. You know, Ben Stiller could make Tropic Thunder because he had put in the work and he was respected in the industry and he had a record of success. And that was a moment in time. Like, you know, I think people are like, well, they wouldn't make that now. But I don't think they were looking to make that then. I think it was because Ben wanted to make that then. It's insane that movie got made at all.

34:28Yeah, it really is. But again, it's like you wouldn't have if it wasn't him. If it wasn't him with his track record pushing something so provocative and so cool and competent at the end of the day. It also feels like when you're making a feature film, there's so much money involved. And that means that studio executives are going to start asking questions about likability of the protagonist and stuff like that. And when kind of simultaneously shows like The Sopranos are really, you know, gaining traction in the cable television space, you're seeing an opportunity to explore more anti-hero type figures.

35:08And, you know, I don't know if you would consider your protagonists anti-heroes, but, you know, you're certainly not thinking about how likable they are when you're making them. I mean, there's a humanity to them and you have obviously have an affection for these people and you're not judging them. But, you know, it's it's you're you're you're you're really pushing people to get on board with these guys. That 100%. And I think it would that that that way of telling stories with those kind of guys, I think, was an answer to that very note that everything was, you know, we were being told that, you know, how likable characters needed to be.

35:43and Jody and David and myself, you know, going to film school, we really responded to like those seventies movies where you would have these complicated characters, you know, Jack Nicholson and five easy pieces or rip torn and payday or even De Niro and taxi driver. You know, these were not likable guys and those movies, uh, were awesome and they were having an impact on us. And they were telling stories that, um, that felt distinct and they felt unique and it didn't feel like something you'd seen before. Um, so I think when we started kind of getting into it, you were like, especially at that time too, I feel like in the nineties, in the early two thousands, a lot of the comedy was just so like, he doesn't want to grow up or he's unlucky in love and, you know, which, you know, can be fruitful for comedy, but it also just felt like it had been well traveled that it was like, you had to find a comedic engine that wasn't just a guy looking for a girl, you know, that there needed to be more.

36:36And so I think when we started turning that lens on to, oh it's somebody who's at a crisis in their life and it isn't just centered around like whether they'll find love or lose their virginity it's sort of like their entire worldview is shattering or they're not who they think they are it just started to feel like it was more dangerous area to tell a story or something that you could do a little more unique it feels like there's a lot of white space for the back rooms cane parsons of comedy to suddenly appear right now and like rewrite that whole narrative and come out with something like we never thought of before i i think it will it's only a matter of time inevitably i think that is exactly what will happen because right now it's sort of horror sci-fi um but horror horror and comedy are are i think are more aligned i mean you've obviously written in horror and you've made these horror movies but they're they're they're like bedfellows i think more than people realize i think they definitely are and i don't think it's like a coincidence that you have, you know, guys like Jordan Peele and Zach Kreger who are, you know, their start was in comedy and then now they're successful horror guys.

37:43I think ultimately, like my opinion on it is that you're creating a ride for people and whether the outcome is you're making them jump or you're making them laugh, you're thinking about your pace, you're thinking about how to sleepwalk them into thinking one thing's going to happen and then hitting them with something else. And I think that when you're looking at stories through that mindset of like architecture and structure, you know, it's I don't know, it's a fun way to tell a story. How does the process work for you? Does it begin with, you know, you see a guy or you overhear a conversation at Costco or something like that and you make a little note or is a narrative appearing in your mind or is it a character?

38:23And then how do you take that and then flesh that out into something that's going to work on on the screen? You know, whenever I have an idea for something, I kind of just will open up a document on my computer and I'll just like free write anything like, all right, I'll just, you know, and it won't even have to be fully formed. It can be a scene that I run out of steam on and just draw a line and just jump to something else. And I'll just peck at a concept like that for a little bit. And then usually if you get like a scene or two, that's like, oh, I like what this is. I like what this is doing.

38:50And then you kind of, I'll start building things out from there and figuring out what works and kind of the, you know, I, so I feel like that's in my mind. past. It's been finding things that way. But then once I'm committed to a story, everything I'm taking in ends up just being me looking into the world of how the stuff I'm seeing can inform what I'm trying to write. So if it's on gemstones and we're working on that, suddenly everything I'm seeing on my day-to-day is all sort of processing, like how can this factor into what I'm doing? And I don't know, that's kind of like it creates a weird alchemy because you start kind of looking at life and your situations you're in of like, I'm working on this story and then I happen to be in this grocery store the same time this random person is and the pants they're wearing is making me laugh.

39:34So now the pants that my character in the show are going to be that. And like that moment would have never happened unless I wasn't paying attention in my life and seeing how things around me can influence what I'm working on. For gemstones, did you like drop in on megachurch services or did you interview some of these pastors? I interviewed a few different megachurch pastors. And this is before I had really written anything. When I moved to Charleston, there was a big adjustment to go from Los Angeles to Charleston. Growing up in the South, I knew what I was getting into, but it was just a lot different.

40:10I mean, even just driving around, I would just oftentimes just get in my car, just trying to figure out the town. And I would just go on these long drives, just cruising around, getting lost, trying to figure out all the roadways and where everything was and what was around. And I really couldn't shake the idea of like how many churches I was seeing. I'm like, oh, this is kind of crazy. I hadn't really thought about that. But in LA, I just wasn't, you know, it wasn't as prevalent as it is here. Like they were everywhere. And even on the radio station, it was like every other station was a religious station.

40:36And it just got me thinking about, you know, church and about my upbringing and how I went. And it made me wonder like, how was it different than when I went? And so I started just looking into these mega churches and seeing how these things functioned and what the services were like. And yeah. And then from there, I was like, I kind of want to talk to people who are a part of this world and learn about the process and how these things are structured and how they're built and how they do it. Also, it's just another one of the pillars of American society is sports, education, and now like religion.

41:08Yeah. What's left? We have politics. Your veep is waiting for right now. Although we're just watching episodes of it every day already. That's cool, man. It's such a keen insight into what's ludicrous about how we live our lives. And I would imagine on this press junket that you're on right now, it's like, okay, you're illuminating the foibles of the modern American man. Are people like, all right, Danny, so what's the solution? this is your this is your uh self-help guru moment you know you know what i have no answers i i am uh i feel like you know we've been pointing out this we've been pointing out this type of dude for a very long time you know that this is that this you know i think we uh yeah we just saw where culture was going and where um our ideas of what it takes to be a solid dude like you know i don't know like how what was expected and in what the outcome is and you know i don't have what the answers are for it i mean i uh you know in these stories the answer usually always kind of like lands on the person themselves you know coming to terms with who they are what they want and being okay with the idea that like life isn't always going to be about what you think you need with that how do you make sense of like the quote-unquote manosphere and like these characters like Andrew Tate and like clavicular and like looks maxing, you know, as a parent also like the impact that, you know, these people, the sort of influence these people wield on, on young people.

42:47Yeah. You know, luckily like my kids haven't gravitated towards any of that stuff. And, uh, I don't really even know much about any of it other than what I like, you know, hear, you know, these, these, these people are speaking directly to your characters. Yeah, totally. Yep. I, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, in my house, I really have, I try to like limit my kids having access to all this stuff, you know, and being, uh, and I just try to be present in their lives. So if they're listening to anybody's take on the world, hopefully it's mine and my wife, my wife's and not a stranger online. But inevitably, it's going to be harder and harder.

43:20But even outside your house, just on culture, you know, writ large. Yeah. You know, I think maybe that's part of the benefit of being in Charleston is like we live on a creek and the kids in our neighborhood are into fishing and they're into, you know, getting out in the water. And I don't know. It doesn't, I don't see it as, it's not as pervasive there, I guess. It is pervasive, though. I think it's just a reaction to the existential crisis that these people have. There's an emptiness in their lives and then so-and-so comes along and says, I'm going to solve this problem for you. This is what you got to do.

43:57You have to sign up for my academy or whatever it is. And here's the 12 steps. And then you can be in your full expressed masculinity. Yeah. And it's always and it's it's it's always rooted in grievance. Also, you know, it's somebody else's fault. It's not your fault. And you have to claim your power. Well, it's preying on the vulnerability of it kind of feels like that's what everything does. Right. I mean, isn't that that's like that could be that's kind of what religion has done for years and years for, you know, generations of people is that everyone is always like looking for the answers outside of themselves.

44:33And, you know, I think when you have the Internet, obviously, there's like there's more people that you have, you know, the ability to reach that you can give the answers to. And, you know, I think that that's just, you know, that is just what we're up against. Right. I mean, that people are always looking to find out the answers. And it's a matter if they align with the right person that's going to give them the real answers or if they're going to, you know, get up wrapped up in something that ends up turning them upside down. here on the pod optimizing our lives is something that comes up a lot how to hone our habits our routines our health but what's wild is my car is doing that too because a rivian is essentially the most powerful computer you'll probably ever own constantly learning adapting improving and the crazy part is you barely notice it the system is taking in information from cameras and sensors making real-time decisions to help keep everything smooth and safe.

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47:25How does the evangelical community perceive you when you run into people? You know what's funny is I think that because we – I was really adamant when we made that show that I didn't want the joke to ever be religion. I didn't want the joke to be about people's beliefs. You know, I really wanted the joke to be about this family and about their level of hypocrisy, but I didn't want to paint it like this is what everybody who's religious behaves like or acts like. And I really didn't want it. No jokes about like, isn't this crazy? These people believe this. Like I didn't, I never wanted that to be part of what that story was.

47:58And, um, and I think because of that, we were able to get religious people watching that show too, because I don't think they felt like they were the butt of the joke. I think if you're really religious, you see gemstone people in your world, and I don't think that you necessarily like it. I think that false prophets have been around for a long time, and it's something that people can identify. And so I feel like that actually worked in our behavior, in our benefit. I had spoke to this one megachurch pastor early, early before there was even a concept out in the press about what the show was. And this family was very kind to me.

48:40And they showed me kind of how, just very basically how this operation worked and what their thought process was behind church planning. And it was really enlightening. It was a cool conversation to have with them of how they approached building churches and where they decided to put them. And I made the show. I didn't see that pastor again for years and years. Then I ran into him one time and I was like, oh, God, this is after the show was done. And I was thinking like, oh, God, what's this conversation going to be like? And he came up and whispered to me, he said, you know, I can't tell people that I've seen it, but you nailed it.

49:15You're like the secret guilty pleasure of the hardcore evangelical, you know. That's hilarious, man. The book is 10 stories. It's sort of an anthology, the misadventures of the modern male. Why do it that way? Why not write a novel? Did you just have too many threads spinning around in your mind? You know, I think it was a little bit just creatively as an answer to what I was trying to kind of like change up is that, you know, gemstones I wrote on for seven years. And so I loved writing on that show. I love writing those characters, but it's seven years of every time you sit down to create, you're doing it through the lens of these characters in this world.

49:57and I think there was just a lot of ideas and so for me it was kind of I liked the idea that I could think of something you know a lot a lot of different ideas a lot of different characters and with each story I wasn't having to like you know tv writing is so much that every episode is a part of the story and then they're all connecting to tell a larger story and and then each season is telling an even larger story yeah yeah this was kind of nice to be able to like launch into a story and take it to its completion. And then that's what it is, you know, and then you can jump to the next one and, and start from a completely different place.

50:30And so there was something that was fun about that of not committing to just one story, but being able to really explore a lot of different ideas and different types of people. They all occupy the same world though. I feel like all of your characters live in this, they could all be, you know, they could be interacting with each other. You know, There is a universe that could be expanded upon in there. And the stories are great, man. Thank you very much. It opens with the frustrated divorced guy who decides he wants to be a magician. And he's going to put himself in a cube in the mall hanging on a crane.

51:04And it's just like insane. The former sitcom actor. And they all have these weird turns. And then everything goes insane. It's really well done, man. It's super enjoyable. I mean, and, and there is something durable about writing a book, you know, that's different from, I mean, it's cool that younger people are, you know, kind of cottoning on to Eastbound and Down and et cetera. And there's a extended lifespan for some of the work that you've done, but a book is a whole different deal altogether. It's, it's really been interesting because, you know, I was talking to my wife about it. It's like, it's not like I haven't done things that people have seen before, but this does feel different.

51:48Even just my friends who sort of will roll their eyes at whatever new thing I have out like, yeah, sure. Another TV show. Great work, Danny. This one is sort of like, there is like, you wrote a book, man. Like it's an accomplishment. Yeah. I don't know. David Gordon Green said, uh, that your, your media diet is basically being a voracious reader of great books and then watching the trashiest reality television. So it's this like high-low approach. But people might be surprised that you are such an avid reader and this is what you spend most of your free time doing. I've just been enamored with stories and storytelling.

52:27I always have. And so I just read because I love watching how people construct stories or how people tell stories to take the ride that someone has constructed and, and take that journey. I love it. Um, yeah. And with TV, my TV viewing is really crazy because I just, I have a really hard time just kind of like investing in TV shows. And usually I'm always behind on all the stuff that everyone says is amazing. Cause you're fucking busy. You're making it. It is. And then when I sit down at night too, I just don't want to, uh, I don't want to be trapped where I have to watch something like so that reality tv is i can half pay attention uh and i and all of it honestly though is like great character work it's like you're just seeing all these train wrecks you're seeing all these ways people position themselves in group dynamics and i just find it really entertaining do you feel like any of the stories in the book could be fleshed out into into film or television projects or is that you're just this is what it is you know i was approaching it where this is what it is.

53:26But definitely now that I'm past that point now, there are a few stories in here that I'm like, oh, I'd like to do more. And one thing that was a lot of fun with this is we did the audio book for this. And I'd never done anything like that before. I'd never read on an audio book. And that process was so much fun. And I was able to get a bunch of really talented people to come in and read these stories. You had people voicing the different characters. Yes. Like Walton Goggins reads and Goodman, some of our Adam Devine and Edie. But then I got Sam Rockwell and Billy Crudup and Sturgill Simpson and Eric Andre and Shane Gillis and everybody, you know, reads these different stories.

54:02And I even got my composer, Joey Stevens, who does all the music for our shows. He created a like, you know, a score for each of the stories that kind of like takes you in and out. And I think it's a really fun way to experience this book. It really is. And just hearing actors bring these characters to life, it definitely inspired me into thinking like, yeah, it might not be bad to see some of these things pushed further. You're also an entrepreneur. I mean, you've started this company and it allows you to do what you want to do with like working with the system, but sort of outside of it, it's kind of like a dream situation, but you're running a business also at the same time.

54:39You got all these people that you're, I guess, semi-responsible for their salaries. I mean, there's so many projects that you guys have done, but it's a whole enterprise on top of this whole thing. It really is. And especially moving to Charleston, part of the idea of that was we had always shot eastbound in the South. We shot vice principals in the South. We provided a lot of jobs year after year for a lot of people in that region. So being able to bring something like gemstones there and give the really talented people in that part of the country steady work in their backyard where they weren't having to travel to another state to find jobs.

55:14Uh, it was really awesome. Um, and then like, you know, when gemstones wrapped up and it was time like to write this book, I really felt the weight of that, of like, you know, there's a lot of people that are like looking for gigs now. Like we need to, we need to come up with. And they're not, they're not working when you're writing a book. Yeah, exactly. And I felt that for sure this last year, I definitely felt, uh, that I wanted to, uh, I didn't want, I don't want people to start looking for other jobs. You know, there was a lot of really talented people that we've worked with for years and you know so much of the production is going overseas or into other countries and um yeah i just think it's important to keep things here and to give people in this country a chance to work on these projects and i loved that we could make things in south carolina you have people who probably feel like they're so far outside of the entertainment industry showing up to be extras and it's their first experience ever fun for being around something and you know who knows what that inspires in them.

56:08And I like trying to create those situations for people. How do you think about the future of media? I mean, here in Los Angeles, it's just a constant conversation about like AI and how, you know, production has fled Los Angeles and the economy is cratering and all these people that, you know, we're basically like middle-class employed people within the studio system in their various jobs, like that's disappearing and, you know, what's going to become of this industry. You're in a whole, like your own little bubble out there doing your thing. And it seems like it's all going fantastic, but we feel it even out there.

56:46I mean, it's, you know, it's people aren't buying as much stuff. There's not as much action out there. I mean, we, we definitely feel it too. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I, you know what, I have no clue. I mean, I definitely think it's a scary time in the industry, but I really would think at the end of the day, people aren't going to get tired of seeing stories and hearing stories. And, uh, You know, the business is just going to have to sort itself out. But it's really amazing to see something like Obsession that's made for 750 grand and the reach that can have, you know, and hopefully that inspires more people to approach filmmaking that way.

57:19It's made young people psyched about going to movie theaters. 100%. You know, I think about when I went off to film school in 95, you know, it was like that, that like year was sort of like Pulp Fiction had come out. It was all happening. Yeah, Clerks had just been out. Desperado was out. Brothers McMullen, like Billy Bob Thornton was making Sling Blade. There was just all of these movies in that short period of time that were coming out of left field. And that definitely inspired my friends and all of us. And so it doesn't take much, I think, to light the fire for a new talent. You know, I think you just you have to see those examples of those kind of stories breaking through.

57:57And then it inspires a whole new batch of people to try their hand at it. Yeah. The old guard is always going to lament the way that it used to be. But I think I'm like 10 years older than you, but I remember distinctly when Sex, Lies and Videotape came out and Reservoir Dogs. And it was like, there was so much excitement. It was like, this is new. This is different. These guys are rock stars. And then everybody wanted to be an independent director. And it made people believe that they could so that Kevin Smith could cobble together five cents and like make clerks. And people like you who are even younger could start to, you know, marinate in that dream.

58:34Oh, we like, you know, we're sitting there in film school watching those movies, watching Wes Anderson and Owen Wilson and Luke Wilson make Bottle Rocket, you know. And to us, we were living and breathing that stuff. I mean, it was, for us, it was like, this is exactly what we want to do. And here's some young guys doing it. And yeah, it's not to be underestimated the value of even one thing, finding success, what that can generate for other people. And that was a period of time where it's still even at the lowest budgets, like you needed film and you need to can't is like you don't need any of that now.

59:05And you don't even necessarily need distribution because we all have YouTube. And, you know, we've seen what Kane has done by building his audience over time with the work that ultimately found its way and kind of matured in the back room. But, you know, it's a whole different time right now. And I think there's so much to celebrate and be excited about. That's what I think, too. I think that it's never been easier to find an audience. And now we just need those artists that take advantage of that. Yeah. So what is next for you then? Like, how do you think about the next project? I mean, you're coming off like, I mean, I'm sure Gemstones was exhausting.

59:40It was exhausting. It was so much fun. But yeah, it was definitely exhausting. And so I definitely needed to decompress after that. And that's why this book was honestly perfect is because my hobby is writing. And so once I finished Gemstones, it was like, I need to take a break from that level of work, but I still want to write. I still want to create things. And so this was like a perfect thing to drop into and dedicate my time to. And, you know, it's been fun to now this is out there in the world and people can enjoy it. But, yeah, you know, I've got a few things over at HBO that I'm developing now.

1:00:15And the thing I'm the most stoked about is that John Couturier and Jeff Raleigh, two of the other of my collaborators on Gemstones, we sold our pitch to Paramount to relaunch G.I. Joe. And so we got them a script that we're really fired up about. And we're trying to shoot that next year. Yeah. You were a G.I. Joe guy growing up. Massive G.I. Joe. Yeah, I read that. I read that. I'm not going to be the guy who's going to ask the artist to explain his work, but if you did have to kind of crystallize, you know, this guy that, you know, that it's like every one of your characters is a different version of kind of the same guy on some level.

1:00:54like who is that guy and why does he mean so much to you why do you keep kind of um returning to this exploration of uh the modern american male and his you know frailties and and fractured relationship with his masculinity you know i don't you know i'm not sure why it is i mean i think that in my brain where it goes is you know like i said growing up in a town like spotsonia virginia where it's just like you're in the everyday world. That's the world where stories that appeal to me take place. But you want those stories to resonate with people. So I love the idea of characters that live in our world, but have sort of this epic imagination of how they fit into the world and what they're doing.

1:01:42It's almost like all these guys have read Joseph Campbell and they're assuming that they're the hero and uh and then the reality is that they're not you know and that i just think there's something interesting about uh about taking a character on that journey and maybe that's because that's the ultimate thing that maybe uh we're all quietly up against and like what you were saying with people searching for you know clavicular or any of these influences like everyone is trying to figure out how they win and that's what it is and you have to walk a tightrope to portray these characters in a way where they're not um cartoon figures or or people that you're making fun of like there's always this like heart and compassion like how do you do that how do you infuse them with that so that we're kind of on board with them and despite all their bad behavior we still kind of want it to work out for them i think it's just like treating them real like giving them depth i think that's what all of it comes to you know i would find myself a lot of times when I would watch like traditional comedies that I would always like be laughing in the first 30 minutes.

1:02:48And then in the second act, you kind of like, they start introducing reasons of why you should care. And then usually the third act, you're kind of like checking your watch. It's like, okay, it's done. I've got the joke. Um, and so I think all of this stuff is ultimately like, let's make these characters, not just, uh, you know, vehicles for punchlines. Like let's do that and let's make them as funny as we can, but like, let's inject depth into them and layers into them so that once you get to the third act, there's actually something for the audience to care about or to root for or to want to see resolve.

1:03:18And I think you get that from depth. I think you get that from treating them like they're real. And the people that I really have enjoyed working with in front of the camera, like Walton Goggins or Edie Patterson, John Goodman, these are all great, great actors. And the thing I love about them is they don't get excited about just the jokes. they get excited about the idea of how to inject the humanity humanity the like goodman is just oozing pathos and no matter what he's doing you know you know he's going to bring that and so when we when i find those kind of collaborators that's the perfect recipe for what we're trying to do because at the end of the day that's what we want we don't want uh we want people to laugh want them to be entertained but at the end of the day you do want people to care about these people and imagine that they could be real and i don't think it's about justifying that type of person or what that person does.

1:04:10But I do think it has to, we're all capable of like empathy and we all kind of want to understand the people around us, even the worst examples of the people around us. I think it's better to try to have understanding of why they tick that way as opposed to just write them off. Do you think you can still find the satire in like our incredibly satirical world? I think you still can. Yeah, I really do. How did you learn how to do that? Was it just through experience, like just the many years of banging, you know, banging it out, script after script? I think so. I think that all of the, every project I've done, there's always been a sense of when you approach the next one, like you just, I'm never satisfied with what we've done.

1:04:54I'm always sort of, I like this and I like that, but I'm always very like, but next time I would do this or I would do that or I would have a character that does this instead. So I think with all of it, it's just trying to push myself to refine it, to make it better, to push myself to try something different. And on the day-to-day basis, is it more Steven Pressfield, War of Art? I'm a pro and I sit down and this is the time and nobody bothered me. Or is it like you and your buddies getting stoned and fucking around? No, it's definitely, you know, it used to be that for sure, but it definitely has, uh, you know, it was really easy to do this job when I didn't have kids, you know, and I, you know, even just my, you know, it was just a girlfriend at the time before my, before Guy and I got married, uh, you could be really selfish with your time and you, I could, you know, I could work all fucking day long until four o 'clock in the morning.

1:05:44And like, you know, I could just, I just would give all my time to the job, you know, to creating. Um, and then once kids came around, it started to be like, I don't, I don't want to give that much time to this. I want to get the result, but I also want to, I have other jobs now too. I want to be there for these kids. I want to be a good partner for my wife. I don't want to like, you know, push all these things off just because I'm making a TV show. You know, I got to find the balance of it. So, you know, it just, you kind of just end up adjusting. And I found what worked for me is just, I just get up at the ass crack of dawn every day.

1:06:21Like I get up at like five in the morning and I just jam in the morning before everybody else is awake, you know? And then by the time the kids go awake, I already have started something that's got my mind working that has me excited. I can sit down and be present for those guys and get them to school and I drop them off. Then I come back home and I jam more. And then I just, yeah, I just try to find the time that works that doesn't like make me sequestered off while the rest of life is happening and I'm hammering away nonsense and dick jokes. You've worked with so many brilliantly talented people.

1:06:57What lessons have you learned from, I don't know, Will Ferrell, Ben Stiller, Judd Apatow, Seth Rogen? What are some of the lessons that have translated and found their way into your work that have been meaningful to you? You know, one thing that I admire about all those guys is everyone that you mentioned, they're all really nice people. They really are. And I think that even, you know, you hear these horror stories of how like how people can be divas in Hollywood or how they can, you know, it's cutthroat. And with all of those guys, there is always a sense of camaraderie, you know, Judd and Seth and their camp.

1:07:32Like there were so many guys that were always on those sets that were around from freaks and geeks. And there were all, you know, friends and buddies. And, you know, Stiller has his crew and, you know, Will had, you know, there were so many friends that were in that circle. And so I liked that. I felt like that spoke to what my experience was with my friends, of that you can do this job and it's more fun to do it with friends. And it's more fun to give buddies opportunities and to be loyal to people. What's the advice that you give to young people, young filmmakers, aspiring writers? you know the advice i got when i first moved out to los angeles was it was from like a guy who was uh i had like had a meeting with he was like he was like you know working out of his like toyota corolla and he was you know he was like looking at me to see if he wanted to manage me as a writer and he didn't want to but the uh the the advice he gave me is i was like well what do you think like what how do i get going here he's like look at you're not going to do what you want to do for a very long time find a job that you know you'll be okay with in the meantime that doesn't make you want to kill yourself.

1:08:38And then he drove away and I was like, shit, this is going to be harder than I thought. And, uh, but I think that that was really solid advice because I think sometimes, you know, not relying on your art to pay the bills. Yeah. And to know that like, it's going to be different seasons of your relationship with your art, you know, and maybe in the beginning, just getting that proximity, that could be, even though it seems like it's the right move, like, Oh, I got to live in LA where it's happening. But if to afford to live in LA means that you got to like work 16 hours a day and you're, you know, living with four people in an apartment, you know, that might not be the most conducive way for you ultimately to like write or to achieve what you need to do.

1:09:14So I think it's like finding a position for yourself where you can actually live a fruitful life and you can find inspiration and you can figure out to pay the bills. And it might mean not being in the heart of a expensive city. It might mean like, you know, living somewhere that's cheaper and figuring out how to create your masterpiece outside of the system. And what's the feeling that you want people to have after reading your book? I hope that honestly that they're entertained. I mean, reading has been something that I've been passionate about since I was a kid. I mean, I started reading Stephen King when I was in elementary school.

1:09:47I've always loved books. I've always loved being in the middle of stories. And I think in this day and age when these screens are so present and there's just this constant flood of information coming to us and seeing everything. For me, books have been a good antidote to that. Every time I feel like I want to scroll or I want to look at something I have no control over and get angry about it, I find that it's more useful to put that thing down and to pick up a story and to pick up a book. And I think in general, it just chills you out. It just puts you in a mind space that, I don't know, my life always feels healthier when I'm in the middle to love a good story.

1:10:26Who are your guys? Like other than King, I grew up, I grew up on all the horror stuff. Like that was, I think what got me into reading, uh, because it didn't feel like homework. I was always with, with the horror and the thriller. I always was curious of what was going to happen. And that was the way where I, as a kid, wouldn't just like be, uh, intimidated by the page counts, like the pages I would stop paying attention to. Cause I just wanted to know what was going to happen. But as I got older, um, I mean, I love Larry McMurtry. I love Cormac McCarthy, George Saunders. I love Jack Vance, this fantasy writer.

1:11:00I love Jim Thompson. You know, yeah, I really go through so many, so many different writers. When you started writing horror, you did Exorcist, the Halloween movies. What did you have to learn or unlearn from being so, you know, kind of comedy brained? You know, it's interesting because even when we write our comedies, we don't write them like their comedies like we will write them like they're serious you know and then we'll find ways to inject humor but a lot of times we'll strip jokes out of the scripts just because like oh this is like pushing it too much so i think in that regards we approach that first halloween the same as we would approach anything you know just like what's the story how do we land it who are these characters how do we make them real same principles same principles yeah um this was great man oh thanks for having me out here yeah weather is a delight yeah thank you thank you for traveling all the way out here uh all the way from spottsylvania yeah originally to be here today with me um it's a treat to talk to you and uh congrats on the book man you did a bang up job it's fucking awesome and uh i'm sure people are uh gonna love it i mean just came out this tuesday right yeah yeah so we'll see like a week and a half from now when people have finished reading it they're like what's this dude think he's doing but the audiobook when is the audiobook coming out.

1:12:19The audiobook is out now. Oh, it's out now. I didn't know that. I thought it was still being worked on. Yep. No, the turnaround time on that is fast. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. No overhead either. No shipping. No, no shipping. All right, man. Well, best of luck to you and win in your sales, my friend. Thanks, dude. Thank you very much. Cheers. I appreciate this.