Touch Grass: Andrew Yang Returns To Talk Phone Addiction, AI's Cognitive Toll, & The Fight For Your Attention

29:26Like maybe even read a book. Yeah, I do. Like that's something that I think many of us can do. Um, I, I'm not able to do it in the morning. I wake up and think I'm a very important person and I need to see what's going on. So that's not, that's not a good habit. But these are spaces that we need to carve out more and more. And now I've started a company to try and help people move in that direction. And I'm thrilled that you like what we're building with Noble Mobile because I think we have a chance to help a lot of people. Yeah, I love it. I mean, it is such a unique business proposition, the idea that you can like your cellular carrier and that the business incentive is to reduce your phone usage.

30:14Like, how does that even work? Like, do you actually pay people back? Like, how does that even make sense from an entrepreneurial point of view? So I was inspired by a company called Cost Plus Drugs that Mark Cuban started. Are you familiar with this company? I am. Has Mark been on? No. Oh, we should have to have him. Yeah. We should get him on. I mean, you guys would get along great. Um, so for those people who haven't heard of this company, cost plus drugs buys generic drugs in bulk and then sells them to the American public at a very modest markup of 15%. And not now hundreds of thousands of Americans are getting their drugs from cost plus drugs and it's saving lives.

30:54It's saving people millions and millions of dollars. so I'm friends with Mark I'm trying to get him to run for president go Mark Cuban 28 what about you? Cuban Yang 28 you heard those words go ahead sorry no no it's fine so you know I'm talking to Mark and I'm like Mark this is genius we have to try and figure out how to cost plus other things in Americans lives so that we're not getting gouged as much Um, so I went through the average American's cost structure and it goes unsurprising housing, healthcare, education, food, fuel, transportation, media, and then wireless. And so I thought, which of these could we actually cost plus?

31:43So Mark took a shot at drugs, which is in, uh, you know, category two. And I landed in category number eight, wireless. I was a Verizon customer for 20 years, paying them$150 a month just for myself. So that's high. The average American is spending$83 a month on their wireless. So if you're spending more than that, you're above average in a bad way. Honestly, honestly. But what shocked me was that the average European is spending$35 a month or less than half of what we're spending. And so I started to dig in and wondered, could we get Americans a better deal? So I went to Verizon AT &T and T-Mobile to see who would want to build something better for the public.

32:30T-Mobile said we're interested. And so what we did is we bought all this data wholesale from T-Mobile. But we realized that if someone used less data, it would enable us to return half the savings to them. So what we're doing really is we're cost-plussing all of your wireless data. And if you were to use less data in a given month, then we will actually send you cash back. What we've done is we built a rebate system that is like a friendly angel that rewards you for doom scrolling a little bit less. Yeah, nobody likes their cell phone carrier. I think I've been with AT &T since I moved to Los Angeles, like 1996, 1997.

33:1397. It's a constant hassle. It's a nightmare. But until Noble came along, like I never thought like, well, you know, how do you change? There isn't any other option. You just have to tolerate it. They have all the leverage. And then to realize, like you explained to me, their margins and just how much they're gouging you and how difficult they make it for you to make any kind of switch or take back any of that power. Yeah, that delta between$83 and$35 a month, I don't know if that sounds like a lot to people, but that adds up to$100 billion a year in extra spend on our wireless data. And of that$100 billion, $11 billion is going to Verizon shareholders in just straight cash.

34:00Verizon takes$11 billion of their profits and pays it to their shareholders as a dividend. AT &T, your former carrier, took$7 billion last year and sent it to their shareholders as a dividend. And then T-Mobile was another three or so. So that's$21 billion of the$100 billion in extra spend. One of the reasons I'm so passionate about Noble Mobile is that I firmly believe that saving money actually makes you feel better about your life, your prospects, your future. where if you feel like time is working for you, then you feel better. Whereas if you feel like the walls are closing in and your bills are higher than your income, let's say, then you start to feel more pessimistic.

34:48So with Noble, the most you can pay in any given month is$50. And I will confess to everyone, that's what I pay a lot of months because I'm a heavy phone user. $50 is still, you know,$100 less than I used to pay. But if you don't use a whole lot of data and Wi-Fi doesn't count in this, this calculation. So if you're at your home or your office, you're probably using no data because you're just on your Wi-Fi. The least you can pay us is$30 a month. So the average Noble user is paying$42 a month and using their phone 15 to 20 % less than they did before they started with us. And I think for a lot of people here, that would be an appropriate target.

35:35Like you're not trying to throw your phone into the ocean. Maybe some of you are. I would enjoy that. But if I were to say to you, hey, you know, you're going to reduce your screen time by 15 to 20 % and get paid for that, most people would be thrilled. Well, it's acknowledging an incentive that actually works. You know, The onus is on us, sort of this bottom-up thing as the end user to figure this out. And there's all these apps. We can grayscale our phone. We're sort of acknowledging, like, we need these things in order to function in modern society, even though our relationship with them is unhealthy.

36:11And so we try to protect ourselves with creating boundaries that we are constantly breaking. and these apps to carve out time or block out our, you know, social media apps for periods throughout the day so that we can focus. And that's fine. But like money? Yes. Like, oh, you're going to pay, like, I'm actually going to save money or you're going to refund my money or, you know, like that is speaking an entirely different language. Yes. Like we're simple creatures. We like measurements. We like rewards. We like money. We like getting paid for doing something that we kind of want to do, but haven't really had this kind of nudge or incentive.

36:54And we've seen it among our users. I mean, our users have changed behavior because when you're doom scrolling at the margins, you're like, oh, wait a minute. I'm actually costing myself money if I'm out to dinner with my friends or family and I've got my phone out. And then you get reminded, I should not have my phone out. Like I'm here to hang out with my friends or my family. So it's been an awesome success thus far. And it's great to do something that both saves people money, which I love. But Hasan Minhaj, the comedian I'm friendly with, calls these guys our rectangles of sadness. It's like, you know, imagine getting rewarded for using your rectangle of sadness a little bit less.

37:40Mr. Andrew Yang, would you say that your relationship with your phone is intentional or reactive? Mostly reactive, unfortunately. You could even say abusive, where it just sends me pings and notifications and vibrations, and I just run to it and respond saying, what is it? What's the matter? Well, I got good news for you, Andrew, because there is a cellular company that's going to help you with that very problem. And it's actually going to pay you to use your phone less. Well, I do like money. What's it called? It's called Noble Mobile. Have you heard of it? I have in a dream. It came. If you want to learn about Noble Mobile, the company founded by the great Andrew Yang sitting next to me right now, you can do that and you can sign up and you can change your relationship with your phone entirely.

38:32Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go to noblemobile.com And you can try it for just$10 for your first month when you use the very special VIP behind the Velvet Rope code. Rich Roll. Make your relationship with your phone less abusive, more deliberate, a little more distant. And we'll all be happier. There is all this emergent evidence-based science coming out about the benefits of light therapy for skin health, which I have to say is something that I've been increasingly interested in, especially since I'm nearing 60. And I got to say that I've fallen in love with the iRestore Illumina Face Mask.

39:13And the reason why I like it so much and why it stands out against the many competitors that are out there is because it uses three different light modes simultaneously. You got red light to boost collagen and elastin production, infrared to calm inflammation, and blue light to reduce acne and prevent breakouts. And it has 360 LEDs, which is more than twice the number in most of the popular devices. It's simple to use. It's convenient. I pop it on when I'm doing something else, like answering emails. Just 10 minutes, a few times a week, that's it. And my skin just looks better or even a little more alive.

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40:23How do you think about these platforms, our relationship with them, and how you're trying to message people about developing a healthier perspective on all of this. Yeah, it's good fun, but I mean, working with folks like you and Scott Galloway and Arthur Brooks and Chelsea Handler, like all of whom have embraced Noble because they realize it's going to help people, they're using it. And one of the revelations I had, switching from Verizon to Noble, even I was like, is my stuff going to work? And then when it does work exactly the same or better, then you get really fired up. You're like, wait a minute, I was giving those guys an extra$100 a month for what?

41:06Yeah, I didn't realize how easy it is to switch. And you just basically toggle a few switches on your phone and it takes care of it. Every device manufactured from 2018 on has an eSIM in it that just you can direct it to talk to another network. So for the average person, And you can switch in like five or six minutes. And that's what most people don't realize. Most of us Gen Xers, we think we have to go to a store and stand in line and do all this stuff. But we're much freer than that. Well, the best way to make data work for us is to use it to schedule IRL experiences. And I know that's one thing that Noble does.

41:45Like you have these phone-free events. And if there's, you know, another silver lining to this moment that we're all weathering, it's a greater appreciation for connection and community. Like these things were meant to foster that. They put distance between us and other human beings. And now we're kind of like in this moment where we're craving it more than ever. And you're seeing even, you know, young people, especially like. Like, yeah, some of the things we're messing around with, for example, would be everyone puts their phone in a box at the dinner table out at a restaurant. And then if no one actually takes their phone out, then you get 10 % off your bill like paid for by Noble.

42:31More money incentive. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, we do tend to traffic in money. but data is money and that's one of the interesting things here and another idea that i had was that if you go you get together with a friend in real life and you take a picture and then you'd like send it to send it to us or post it then you get like a you know discount off your cell phone bill that that um month so that there are these um these positive ways that we can use a billing relationship. Um, but totally agree with you that, um, it's all meant to spur in real life experience and connection relationships.

43:12We've had over 10 ,000 people attend these no phone, uh, offline parties, um, including the hundreds at an event here in LA. Um, we have one in New York in May that the New York events tend to be pretty well attended because, you know, like everyone likes to you know take a break and party and i will say for folks like you and i rich it is so much fun attending a phone free party because you have no choice but to look at each other and converse and maybe buy someone a drink and it feels like a college party in the 90s again yeah and one person actually tried to get someone else's phone number and but no one had a phone so they wrote the number down on a napkin just like we used to do the 90s were the best in the 90s and but it makes you realize how this phone has become such a like a crutch and a barrier between people in those kinds of settings because if you're bored or lonely at a bar or club today what do you do you bust out your phone like a second later and then you're like oh and then you're like soothed and you're seeing what's going on But if you don't have that recourse, then you're like, all right, who's here?

44:24What's going on? Yeah, you're forced to get out of your comfort zone and interact with people. I think a lot of it also has to do with the fact that nobody has them. And that kind of mirrors Jonathan Haidt's research with schools. It's not that kids are against a no phone policy. They just don't want to be the only one. Like, so if you take the phone away from everyone, they're actually a lot happier and everybody's kind of flourishing on a whole new level. So these phone free parties or whatever, these IRL events, like the fact that no one has it, that that's the real appeal. Yeah. Yeah. You can check it out at offlineparty.com.

45:07We've now had maybe 22 of them. And I've been to virtually all of them. So I've partied a lot this past year without votes. Which also is kind of liberating too, because no one's taking photos or recording anything digitally. We walk around with those old school film cameras, like the disposables. Yeah. You talked about, I want to get into other solutions. So you mentioned like, oh, no phones for dinner, or you can do these, you can set up boundaries. This is my deep work time, et cetera. Yeah. or institute some kind of digital detox. Like, do these ever work, or are you just rubber band back to, like, your bad behavior?

45:54I mean, it's sort of like an intermittent fast, I suppose, if you use food as an analogy. But we still find our way back to that compulsive behavior where we're just being impulsed almost, you know, against our will. You know, there was a study, and I think it was even run by Meta, that if you spend a week off of social media platforms, your mood improves significantly. uh and that's true too if someone takes your device away so because like the first day you're freaking out but then by the second or third day you're like oh this is actually kind of nice um so i'm with you that the guidelines or the um time restrictions that are self-imposed tend to have real limits um in their effectiveness and utility because you know it's always there you know that you know, after the meal ends, you can rush to your phone and be comforted by it.

46:50But I think what Jonathan Haidt established is really the answer, which is if no one has it, then you're fine. It's just, if you're the only loser who doesn't have the phone in your school or at the party, then you feel deficient. And so that's the norm that can be established within a family environment within a company or organization within a school district within a friend group maybe even within um you know a locality uh and that's something that noble wants to be helpful to and in our own lives i mean i i think we're our best accountability buddies and i suppose that i don't know if that's a technical addiction term but um one thing i did when i was a kid I was very profane as a kid because I was one of the only Asian kids in my town and I didn't want to be a nerd.

47:48So I just swore all the time. So then I got to college and was still swearing all the time. And this cute girl I liked said, why do you cuss so much? And then I said, like, I don't know. And so I gave a couple of guys I hung out with at that time license to punch me in the arm as hard as they could anytime I said fuck or shit. Because you like this girl? Because I like this girl and I wanted to clean up my, you know, my act to date her. And so, of course, my friends rejoiced at the ability to like pound me anytime I cursed, which I did all the time because I just did it like every, you know, third sentence without thinking about it.

48:30And it totally worked. and then I stopped swearing because it got to a point, Rich, where when I swore and these guys weren't around, I would flinch because I was so used to getting pounded. Negative incentives work. Yeah, like positive incentives work. Noble, as you guys can tell, is very, very benign and positive. But if you give someone in your life license and one of Noble's ads, which is funny, meant to be funny, is me smacking phones out of people's hands. Yeah. But if you give someone in your life, like the ability to, let's say it's like, Hey, anytime I bust my phone out, um, during a meal, like, you know, you get$5 or whatever for like your kids or whatnot, they'll call you out like every chance they get.

49:12Like, uh, if you can establish some kind of norm or culture that might be, um, fun or rewarding or punitive, like I think, uh, you know, that, that can give you hope. yeah it's tough man like i'll create these rules like well there's a difference between uh using my phone to create something and using it to consume but that's also just artifice like i can be in denial about that yeah and i will take my phone into the gym and realize that a workout that should take 45 minutes ends up taking two hours and i'll justify oh i'm making notes or I'm having creative ideas and I'm like writing them down.

49:55And so I'm kind of multitasking or I'm preparing for a podcast. Same, same. But like, no, this is not the way. You and I are kindred spirits. So two things we've done to try and be helpful. So number one, everyone will appreciate this. Everyone wants to know what their baseline is, what their current behaviors are. So if you download the Noble Life app, it's totally free. Just takes a minute to download. And all it's going to do is it's going to monitor how many times you pick up your phone and how much doom scrolling you're doing. And so we said a hundred as like the reasonableness threshold.

50:34If you're above a hundred, you get these, you know, cheeky messages being like, your brain might be running a little bit. And then if you're below a hundred, then it's like, oh, you're, you're good. And that's free, easy. It's meant to be a fun resource and tool for people. Now, one of the things, obviously, because we're a business, if you have the Noble Life app, anytime you're below 100, then you develop cash rewards because that's the way we roll. We roll. And then the cash rewards then can be used as a credit for Noble Mobile. so that's the second thing is that if you have an interest uh in actually getting your behavior aligned um to your wireless plan then check out noble mobile um we save you money just about like you know everyone's saving like almost 50 or more off their cell phone bill but then we'll in all likelihood reduce your screen time by 15 to 20 yeah i mean the the function the aspect of that that i like the most i mean the money's fine and that's great but it's it's showing you those metrics so that you can break the grip of denial and actually objectively see how you're behaving because it's we all lie to ourselves man we all lie to ourselves this is the deal like the stakes are high this thing is eroding our ability to think clearly to focus it's changing our neurology It's impairing our physical health, obviously our mental health.

52:04We can't concentrate. Like it is truly coming for all of your time and your life is on the line. And the only resource that we can't renew in our lives is time. And we squander it without thinking about it. It really is tragic. And so I think it's just, if I could say anything, it's just incumbent upon all of us to really rethink this and not be so cavalier about it. I think we're just like, oh, well, or, well, everyone's doing it and it's just kind of the thing. And to understand that we have agency and that you're actually financially incentivizing people to do this. This is serious business.

52:45Like, your life is truly on the line. The stakes could not be higher. And I implore everyone to rethink this relationship. And if you think it's okay, even if your screen time is high, if you do an inventory, like write down what you do every 15 minutes throughout the day and do that for a day or a week, I think pretty much everybody will be shocked at how much time they're wasting. And then we walk around saying, well, I don't have time for this, that, and the other. And the things that are most important in life end up coming last because this becomes first. because we're addicted to it. And it is insane from pillar to post.

53:25And we're all just, you know, kind of accepting it. It's crazy talk. Yes. Amen, brother. And it's interrupting our actual in real life relationships. I mean, studies have shown that you do a digital check-in and you're like, oh, I'm good with this person. And you're less likely to see them face-to-face, catch up with them for coffee or lunch. This includes close family members. and these screens are not a substitute for actual human contact and all the science bears that out yeah if i could say anything especially to young people like the good news is the bar is so low right now like everybody is so distracted that if you could just develop a modicum of focus, like maybe 20 % of what you were doing when you were 23 years old, that puts you in the 99.99 % time.

54:22Like if you could just carve out some degree of deep focus throughout the day, you can leapfrog over everyone because everyone is so distracted now. So you could actually distinguish yourself and accomplish quite a bit because everyone is so locked in on they're doom scrolling. And when you talk about accomplishing something, Rich, what I think about really is quality time with my kids. Because all too often, it's not high quality, unfortunately, you know, like you get together with them. And instead of actually having a heart to heart, real conversation, it's just very practical and activity based.

55:00And like, I'm distracted, and they're distracted. And then it's easier, you know, like you take them on a family trip, The easiest thing to do is give your kid an iPad or screen and then they'll let them sedate themselves like on the plane ride instead of trying to, you know, tell them about where they're going. Yeah. So what's your message to parents and how do you do that as a parent yourself? yourself you know i mean i think most people know the aphorism that kids respond to what you do not what you say um and it's one reason why like uh you know i need to do better and be a better role model because they see right through if you're like hey don't use your screen so much and then you bust yours out like uh you know at the dinner table or on the family trip or whatever it is so then you have to lead and then you have to be good human and good spirited about it when it doesn't work the first, the second time.

55:49And then that like third or fourth time, like maybe they'll actually enjoy it and be attentive to, you know, like the Picasso Museum or wherever I drag them to. That's a real story. I did drag them to a Picasso Museum. When you were running for president, what did you learn about the digital information ecosystem that the average person might not understand or be aware of? I was competing. So you try and get attention any way you can. And so I joke with my wife, or she jokes about it being like the like presidential event Olympics, where it's like, oh, what talent do you have that translates well online, whether it's dancing the Cupid shuffle, or getting on a skateboard, or like all these things.

56:38And, and so I think that's something that I've inhabited and lived in a way that most people don't fully understand. Um, and, and you know what the downsides are of that too, where like, it's, uh, it's just a tension. It's like, if you can do something that's snazzy and, um, grab someone in the first three seconds, um, then you have a better chance to compete, uh, in this economy. Um, but then, you know, if you have like a substantive message, then you're at something of a disadvantage. The election process then mirrors, you know, every kind of digital creator's experience. I mean, it's same is true in podcasting or anyone who's trying to put a message out there.

57:23Like if you want to capture attention. Same, same again, man. You've been running for president this whole time. Bridge role for president, 28. No way. What about, are you, first of all, how are you feeling about the state of liberal democracy right now? And would you consider running again? I don't feel great. People reach out to me all the time, freaking out about AI. And I'd consider running again if I thought I could be constructive and generative and helpful and actually advance real solutions. You know, one of my jokes is I'm almost too young not to run again. Yeah. Because I'm under the age of 77 or whatever the age is.

58:01All right. Well, you heard it here. I'll interpret that as a yes. Yang roll 28. Huh? Running me? The Yang gang is getting back together again. Yang gang plus rich roll. Right. Unstoppable. Noble mobile. Freaking get off that bone. Look up. Touch grass. Except people are going to need to see you on their phones if you're going to run for president. This is the conundrum, Andrew. Maybe I'll show up to everyone's door physically. We can't live without them. And that's actually the summary, Rich. It's like, look, we know these tools are indispensable, but also that they're eating our brains and mental health.

58:41So let's do better. And, you know, I mean, I try and be good humor about things, but this is like a, you know, like multi-million dollar business that wants to be a counterweight on the human side. And right now you have this, you know, series of tech giants that just want to extract and like ring value from us. We want to build something everyone's excited about and happy to be a part of. Last thing. Leave people with one actionable takeaway that they can practice today or tonight around their phone hygiene. Other than signing up for Noble Mobile. No, no, this is the most practical one. And it's even kind of catchy.

59:23don't sleep with your phone don't make love to it but what it means is really just put it in another room just plug it in in another room that physiologically will help you sleep better will help you actually wake up in a better state of mind and this that's science like just the phone in your room some part of your brain knows that it's there and wants to respond to it so just put it to bed in the living room. And some people, when they hear this, say like, then how am I going to wake up? There's something called an alarm clock. It costs approximately$12. You can have one function. You need to set that alarm.

1:00:04But do not sleep with your phone in the same room as you. Amen, brother. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate you.