What Happened To The Vegan Movement? Rich & Simon Hill On The Rise & Fall Of Plant-Based Eating

35:06You don't have to worry about it. Protein has never been something that I've had to be too concerned about. And maybe I'm just like some kind of hyper-adopter or some adapter or something like that. Like I can work out hard and it hasn't historically been an issue for me where I have to be hyper-vigilant about my protein intake, but I've come to appreciate that this is not the case for everybody and i think a lot of the messaging um at that time was that protein is just something you don't really have to worry about if you're just grazing on plants it will take care of itself yeah the message really was like everything takes care of itself other than b12 you know even some people may may have been saying that you didn't need to supplement vitamin b12 but the reality is let's just say you start with like a Mediterranean diet which arguably is in a lot of the dietary guidelines and promoted by a lot of dieticians globally because it's a health promoting dietary pattern that also reduces the risk of nutrient shortfalls but if you take that pattern and you say okay now we're going to eliminate sources of of animal protein there are some things that you need to be aware of and depending on what you swap the fish and the chicken and the meat for that will affect whether you're getting enough protein and micronutrients in particular like omega-3s and iodine and vitamin b12 and zinc and so i i think the message that protein just takes care of itself was oversimplified i think for some people who work out a lot and are eating a lot of calories and they're swapping the sources of animal protein for legumes, then you probably end up getting enough protein.

36:59But if you're removing these animal foods and instead just eating fruit and vegetables, there is a reality of under consuming protein. So yes, you need to be sensible and eat tofu and tempeh and edamame and chickpeas and beans and lentils and et cetera. that group of plant foods that are higher in protein are gonna be better swaps when you take the animal protein out than eating more fruit, for example. And at the same time, I think there are a range of micronutrients, many that I just listed off, plus omega-3s, that most people eating a plant-exclusive diet will benefit from supplementing with a multivitamin.

37:44Now, it's not everyone, because some people follow their diet very closely and are measuring out the amount of chia seeds and flax seeds that they're having and are having different types of seaweed for iodine and sure those people are strategically getting some of those micronutrients like plant-based omega-3s and iodine and they may not need to supplement with as much but for the average person who is super busy with work and kids and all the things when you should shift to a plant-based diet particularly if it's overnight a multivitamin is a great insurance policy to make sure that your body has an optimal status of those micronutrients which are really important and are going to affect how someone feels and are going to affect someone's ability to feel good and want to sustain that diet past two months three months a year you know into you know you've been following this diet now for what 15 years or so yeah and if you're eating uh plant-based burgers and plant-based chicken nuggets and plant-based lasagna with like you know some like processed dairy alternative cheese and like all that kind of stuff and thinking well like i'm eating a plant-based diet like i'm eating a healthier diet like this is not a healthier diet and i think we would have benefited from a little more caution in the communication around not confusing that with what you're talking about which is eating this plant predominant diet with these plant foods in great diversity close to their natural state i think again the a lot of the the educators in the space because they were coming from the ethical kind of side of this conversation the the assumption was that if you're telling people they need to be aware of protein and that protein is important they're going to keep eating the animal foods because society very much sees the you know animal foods as as protein and you We've been having the conversation around, do plants contain protein?

39:58And is it incomplete for decades now at this point? And this coincided with an increase in people's obsession with protein, motivated in no small part by the meat and dairy lobbies who invested a lot of money in making people concerned about this at the same time. And I have mixed feelings about that because, I mean, we've spoken about this ad nauseum on this show but protein is important and sarcopenia and loss of muscle is a real problem it's affecting metabolic health it's affecting physical independence but if you look at what's driving that in in america it's not a lack of protein it's a sedentary lifestyle and we don't need to unpack that because we've done it before and gone through all of the clinical trials, but the stimulus isn't there from the resistance training for most people, which is what's required to build and maintain muscle mass.

41:01And the average person has more than enough protein to do that. The problem isn't the protein, the problem is your lack of moving your body. But over the last, say, three years, with this kind of protein obsession that you're you're talking about a lot of that message has been a doubling down on the importance of animal protein and i've pushed back on that a lot because i think it is a distraction it's a distraction from if if someone really wants to reduce their risk of sarcopenia and have better metabolic health they they need to start moving their body against resistance they don't need to be focusing on eating more animal protein because they're already getting enough protein yeah There's a pretty good chance you've cottoned on to this channel and pulled up this podcast because you've got goals.

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44:23All right, let's move on to factor number two. And that is that vegans can be their own worst enemy. Nobody likes a scold. Nobody enjoys being in the company of somebody who's carrying themselves with an air of moral superiority. And I think the movement has suffered from the fact that so many people who are carrying this message are doing it in an off-putting way that makes people turned off and not want to have anything to do with this. In some way, the labels create that, don't they? They just create a wall and a division. We all want our community. We want to have an identity or an association with some kind of group that makes us feel like our life has meaning.

45:11And I think there is, I would say at the outset, something really beautiful about the ardent animal activist sensitivity. I think some people are born with a higher degree of sensitivity and they just walk the planet like just aghast that this reality is going on all around us and nobody is talking about it. Like, why aren't we doing anything about the fact that billions of these animals are being slaughtered and treated so horribly? And it's so uncomfortable for them that they feel they have no choice but to talk about it. And the fact that like no one else is seeing it the way that they see it or feeling it as deeply as they feel it is frustrating for them.

46:02And so when they do their best to communicate it and that message is not received in the way that they would like, it creates even more like anger and resentment and it becomes this vicious cycle. But the fact of the matter is this is not an effective communication strategy or campaign strategy. You're not going to recruit people into your cause by taking their inventory and telling them that they're living their life wrong. And so the movement could use a little training in human psychology and rhetoric if it wants to survive and thrive. In other words, if you want people to be interested in what you're interested in, then you have to show an interest in them and stop judging them and pitch a big tent and put out a very big welcome mat and allow people in and model it as aspirational rather than some kind of martyrdom.

47:05yeah i mean this is this is not my primary area of expertise but i would say just from a human perspective we all want to feel understood and heard and we we don't want to feel as though we're being lectured to right or be made to feel that we're wrong and and you're right um and so the interesting thing is though that you said that it's ineffective i would say i would agree with you i think that it is it is ineffective at scale but it's it is effective for a minority so everyone has the the kind of example of where that approach that more staunch approach it you know quote unquote has converted some people for whatever reason but in the net how many people is it alienating for the one person that it recruits a lot i mean sanctimony and shaming is not an effective rhetorical strategy no so what would your what would your suggestion be for the person who is currently uh finding themselves in that place that you're talking about where they just feel so frustrated that people are going about their life as if this is not even happening and are completely disconnected from the food they're eating and where it's coming from.

48:34What would your advice be for more effective communication? Well, the first thing that I would say is I would couch what I just said by saying that we need all types of advocacy. And there's something about the very ardent, revolutionary, hardcore rights activist that is important and essential in the democratic process because we need people out there who are willing to show us where the line is and where we've crossed it. I think they play a vital role. So I'm not saying we shouldn't have those people or nobody should be that. And I think if you're wired in a certain way and that's the way you feel most passionate about carrying your message, then you should be that.

49:22I'm just saying in the whole, to your point, this is not winning hearts and minds. What you're doing is sounding an alarm and we need to hear that alarm. And we can dismiss it or disagree with it, but those people, whether it's whatever wrong they're trying to right, this is not just with respect to animal rights activists, with anything that is going on out there. I think these people are vital for a healthy society. So I'm not disparaging them or dismissing them. And certain people are wired for that. And if you're wired for that, then you should go do that. I'm just saying that it's not a great campaign strategy for winning hearts and minds.

50:01And if you're thinking about how you want to carry the message or what feels right to you. I mean, my way, which suits me and my personality is to not get into judging people or being alarmist, but to rather model it as aspirational and make it appealing to people so they're attracted to it. Like there's a phrase in AA, which is attraction rather than promotion. Like don't promote your idea, make it attractive by modeling it in a certain way that makes people want to know more about it and they come to you and then you say, well, I'm not out there like trying to convert people, but if you're interested, I'll tell you all about it.

50:43And this is how I do it. And this is how I've been able to do these things. And you could do it too. And if you're interested, I'll help you do it. And people feel seen and heard. They feel respected. They don't feel like they're being sold something. They feel like their curiosity is being honored and respected, I guess is what I'm saying. And there's something to be said about how you leave someone feeling. So I know that when someone leaves me feeling good and uplifted and that's the energy that they're bringing to our relationship, I want to spend more time with that person. Yeah. I want to spend more time with that person.

51:27I want a bit more of what they have. Whereas Whereas if someone that I'm relating to is frustrated and angry and upset and bitter and leaving me feel shamed or guilty, it makes sense. Like I'm probably going to want to lessen my time around that person and probably not want to be part of the community or group that they're a part of. I think you can marry these two sensibilities, like being somebody who has a very strong belief around an ethic and also is smart and sophisticated on how they communicate that message. And when I think about that, I think about what Billie Eilish is doing. She kind of went viral when she said, you can love animals and you can eat them, but you can't do both.

52:16I'm sorry. like she's just very like clear this is how i feel about this and like you know people can be mad or whatever but that's my position at the same time she uh and support and feed the organization that she has with her mom uh is feeding millions of people plant-based meals at some of the biggest concert venues in the world like every concert that she plays they're making these foods available to people as an offering. Like, hey, check it out. It tastes good. Like, we're not telling you you have to eat this going forward or you can't eat these other things. We're just feeding you. Right.

52:53You know what I mean? Without any kind of condition around it. And so, not just a big tent, like the biggest tent, a big welcome mat, while also basically having a lot of clarity around what you stand for. She's being unapologetic. Yeah. In her truth. If you find yourself judging somebody else or attacking their point of view, maybe do a little bit of reflection. We're all flawed and nobody is going to live up to whatever purity test you've set for them. And nobody wants to take that test either. and people want to be to your point like around people that make them feel good and you can make people feel good and seen and heard and honored while also like without thinking that you're transgressing your like moral point of view um so i think it's just a matter of taking that sensitivity that compassion that comes so easy for the animals and understanding that human beings are animals too, and maybe channeling that compassion towards the person who disagrees with you.

54:07And then finally, I would say, let's stop with the vegan on vegan crime, like the vegans who are attacking other vegans because they're not as vegan as they are or not living up to the absolutely impossible to live up to vegan purity test. it's not helpful to see people within the movement attacking each other for not doing it the way that they think it should be done. Yeah. There's a lot of people that are ostracized within the community. Yeah. So outsiders see that and then they like, well, these people can't even like, they're not even like on the same page and they want me to get on their page or that page when they're still trying to sort it out amongst themselves.

54:52That is not an effective message of attraction. If you got 80 % of the population to do meatless Mondays, that's way better than convincing 1 % of the population to go 100 % vegan. You know what I mean? So understand the value proposition at play and know that when you've got somebody who is interested in what you're saying, that person potentially represents sparing animals their lives. And don't alienate them and destroy that opportunity because there are stakes to these conversations. And so when somebody isn't entirely on your page, Like find a way to communicate with them compassionately rather than alienate them unnecessarily.

55:51Yeah. Don't be a dick. Don't be an asshole and stop being annoying. Perfect. So the third and final factor in my mind are the cultural and political shifts that have happened in the aftermath of 2020 and COVID that have changed the landscape and people's perspective on diet. And these shifts are in some part a reaction to wokeness and veganism is associated with wokeness. And so in order to be red-pilled, you can't have anything to do with veganism. And the last thing any young man or male wants to be called is soy boy. This is like the favorite slur of the red pill. And so soy boy became like basically a slur word, an attack.

56:42And being vegan became the opposite of masculinity. In order to be a man and be masculine, you had to be eating meat. And there was just no argument to that. And that has become really an entrenched idea. It's not a new idea, but it has resurfaced with a great deal of strength. Yeah. That interests me though, the idea that being called a soy boy would threaten your masculinity. How frail is your masculinity? I mean, that's pretty fragile, right? Yeah. That's a construct of masculinity. Well, it's playing on this idea that masculinity being associated with being the hunter and the provider who's going out into the wild and bringing back the animal and providing for your family, your tribe, your village.

57:38This is not how we're living in this day and age. And to the extent that the foods that we're eating are contributing to chronic lifestyle ailments, we're all best to revise our diets and think more consciously about the food choices that we're making and understand that many of these choices are contributing to the detriment of the planet and the environment and a degree of suffering. and we can make another choice. And just because we're eating a different food, it doesn't say anything about who we are as a man. A man is a provider and a protector. And being a protector means that you speak up for the voiceless and the people that can't take care of themselves.

58:26The meat on the plate is not the signal that it once was, as you just alluded to you know previously the meat meant hunting which required some strength and physical fitness and brought security to the tribe today meat means shopping so hunting shopping very different so it's not the signal i think that young i think young men today are really struggling with like what is masculinity and why is it so hard hard for them to find a a partner to be a good prospect in the in the dating market and they're looking at ways to enhance their kind of uh their dating uh uh success their viability in the dating market right and looking back to the traditional ideals to do that thinking that it's it's like um to to be the provider and the protector it's things like eating more meat and eating less soy foods um but to your point i actually think things like physical fitness uh very are important for initial attraction but in terms of long-term mating when when we use the words like strength and and being a provider a lot of it is actually to do with your emotional capacity and so much of the conversation right now around how to become more masculine i believe is over indexing on these kind of external signals like eating more meat instead of being the signal to to be a provider and to create safety requires a lot of things we've been speaking about can you sit with your friend or your partner and listen to something that they've been through and not make it about you and and understand and show them that they're that you understand so they feel seen and not be defensive or reactive and so if i was speaking to a 20 year old dude right now who was like, hey, let's just simplify this because sometimes this language can seem a little intellectual.

1:00:49He just wanted to make himself a more viable prospect. Yes, go out and get fit. Focus on your physical fitness. Focus on having purpose and drive. But those things are almost commoditized. Everyone's doing that. The biggest leverage is the emotional capacity, which is what really provides the safety for the partner is are you emotionally equipped to create that space where she feels heard and seen and you're not reactive and defensive and so to kind of bring this back 360 i just think that that a lot of the the cultural conversation right now around what does it mean to be a man and and what can you do right now to be more masculine is uh slightly uh distorted and sometimes those things that i've just explained there can seem kind of soft and feminine or emasculating in in and of themselves but i don't think we have to look at them that way i think i think sharpening your ability to listen and to receive feedback and not be defensive and not always want to be right.

1:02:06I actually see that as a skill that's very similar to going into the gym every day. It's also the white space. Nobody's doing that. People are terrible listeners. People are self-obsessed and they are challenged to just be with somebody else and ask them, what's going on with you and be totally present for that answer and not thinking about what they're going to say next. And if you can develop just a modicum of that capacity, it puts you in the top 0.01 % of people. So that is a really smart way to think about it. It just doesn't light up the lizard brain in the same way that the kind of hardcore message that appeals to young men that you're seeing out there.

1:02:57So to drill it down to an example, you're a young male, you're somewhere in a set of circumstances where you look around, you don't see a lot of opportunity. You don't see a lot of potential mates. You're lacking self-esteem. You don't feel like your life has agency. You open up your phone and you start scrolling and you become very vulnerable to the kind of aggressive manosphere message that is telling you like you need to go throw out around heavy weights that's fine you should do that right like go to the gym uh but you need to go out no one's going to give it to you you got to go out and you got to claim it for yourself and here's how you're going to do it you're going to be aggressive and you're going to tell people the way that it is and don't let any of these women push you around.

1:03:44That is fundamentally a message that comes from a place of insecurity and fear. It's very effective at selling courses or entrenching you in deeper levels of the manosphere. And part and parcel of that whole messaging is start eating steak. That just gets woven into that like this will make you feel more primal in your male essence uh but essentially what you're saying is true like if you actually want a partner like learn how to listen learn how to be with somebody and be curious about them and stop obsessing about like how you're coming off and start thinking about like how how um that person can can feel seen and honored and you literally are then like in the top tier of of male candidates and in that process you're gonna become it doesn't matter what you're eating you're gonna become so what's on your plate is irrelevant you will become comfortable in your own skin so the insecurities that you're talking about uh you know someone said to me this was a little while ago they said like um security feeling secure in yourself is is like the residue it's it's it's what's left over and so if i was again if i'm speaking to a young man right now that's like a little bit confused the thinking outward to whether it's me or the tribe you align yourself with or if the girl is attracted to you or did you get that high paying job that that's not going to bring the security that you're looking for the security that you're looking for and having high self-worth is going in and saying who do i want to be okay these are the things that that are important to me i want to be trusted i want to be loyal i want to be dependable accountable you know traits that we would say are strong masculine traits human traits really and then when the rubber meets the road and you get out in the in the world and you live, are the behaviors, the things you're doing consistent with those?

1:06:03And the bigger that gap, the less self-worth that we tend to have, the more insecurities we tend to have. But as you progress through life and you work at kind of minimising the gap between who you think you are and who you actually are, then you're inevitably your masks are coming off you're living in integrity and when you're living in integrity you know you're you're showing up as as as someone to others the way other people are experiencing you when you're in integrity is like this person's not wearing any masks they're authentic and that is incredibly attractive much more attractive than whatever your flex is or the watch that's on your wrist or the job that you're talking about or the car that you're driving, all of those things are masks in and of themselves.

1:06:59And the attraction comes with removing the masks, not layering yourself with more of them. And it's hard because we, I think particularly like men haven't had the role models that make a lot of these things intuitive so the skills that we we've been talking about being a better listener and not being defensive and not trying to be right all the time and just just listening to understand these haven't necessarily been modeled in households so we're gonna fumble it's not gonna be perfect and at least in my experience it's having like a degree of grace with that but also not accepting the same patterns over and over and like standing strong and being committed to to doing better and that's how over time you start shedding those those masks and you know i sit here as someone right now that has many masks to still shed and absolutely a huge work in progress but i can just speak to that as someone that's that's that's in it and i think i kind of wish my 20 year old self heard that and so i would would have invested more time earlier in my 20s into some of these things to bring it back around like what you're eating is not contributing or antagonizing uh your identity as a male you know what i mean like that is a red herring and irrelevant it's no more relevant than the kind of car you're driving or the watch that's on your wrist but it's incredibly powerful we just saw this whole uh narrative around james tallarico's girlfriend who apparently is vegan and now he's being pilloried as you know weak uh i think trump called him vegan and this is like a this is a slur word this is like a you know this can like A barrier political career, just being called this word.

1:09:05Because if you want to be a leader, you got to be eating meat, preferably steak. And this conflation of ideas, this conflation of masculinity with eating meat, it's deeply embedded in our culture and very resistant to logically being deconstructed. Like there's something deep within ourselves that holds onto that. as true, even though if we look at it even on a surface level, we realize it's kind of nonsense. I think most of us are moving at such a pace that we're not stopping to kind of deeply examine that. And it is so deeply rooted in culture and society and marketing and now politicians. And so it's accepted at face value.

1:09:56Yeah. But the interesting thing is the fundamental philosophy of the red-pilled is that the institutions are broken and they're lying to you. But this idea that meat is equated with masculinity is basically a talking point of the meat and dairy industry who wants you to believe that. They're very heavily incentivized in that idea remaining exactly where it is. And so it's kind of the opposite of being red-pilled to buy into that notion. i mean that's interesting in and of itself because i feel through through covid i feel like there there uh was and and i think rightly so in part a pushback against control and and regulation and i i think the meat industry did a good job of kind of positioning this message of eat more plants as control or overreach from companies and organizations you'd hear people saying you know bill gates is is investing deeply into plant-based meat yeah he wants you to be eating all these and the food sovereignty message was attached to meat not to eating more plants um and so that was that's another i guess piece of this kind of change in in culture that has has led to that that vibe shift where we started this conversation where certain people have felt that the plant-based community or plant-based message is a very far-left message and is associated with control as opposed to freedom.

1:11:40But from the perspective of control, who benefits or profits from this idea that meat is is equated with masculinity well the bit the meat industry right and it's the big meat companies not the local farmers and so part of that story i think people are led to believe that food sovereignty message eating more meat is is supporting local ranches but when you dig into it it's really the the big meat companies that benefit the other thing that i might circle back on here is you mentioned that part of of masculinity is protecting the vulnerable and protecting the the voiceless and i would say i personally i identify with the the pursuit of of living in a way that is as beneficial for the environment and other animals and other humans as possible.

1:12:50And I find that to be not a weakness or a soft trait, but a strength. And I think it takes temperance and it takes some courage to step aside from what most of society is doing. And I'm not saying, again, I don't think people need to do this perfectly and there's not one way of doing it. But I think questioning that and saying I'm gonna have some discipline and strength to make some choices here that I think are not just better for myself, better for the world around me. You were talking earlier about adhering to your values, like aligning your actions with your values to live a life in integrity.

1:13:41And so when I think about masculinity and manhood, rather than looking at meat as a proxy for those things on a surface level, instead looking at yourself and going beneath the layers to try to identify what your ethics are, what do you stand for, what's important to you, what are you willing to take a stand for, and then making the hard decisions around your actions to make sure that you're living up to that ethical standard, whatever it is. And this is very much in alignment with the stoic notion of life, which is essentially that life is difficult and there are going to be obstacles. And being a man means you accept all of these things, you make the difficult choices, and you make the hard choice when it's not convenient.

1:14:35So instead of caving to your cravings or being manipulated by a marketing message that wants you to believe in order to be a man, you need to buy this thing or do that other thing, checking in with yourself and getting very clear, like this is right and this is wrong, at least to me. These are my rules. And life is gonna throw challenges at me where what I wanna do and what is consistent with that ethic are gonna come into conflict. And the man is the person who does the hard thing and makes the choice they don't want to, that isn't convenient and doesn't feel good, but is consistent with that ethical perspective because that is what living a life in integrity is.

1:15:21And if you wanna be more self-actualized, more integrous, where your actions are in alignment with your ethics and your values and you know what those values are and you stand up for them that is the ultimate flex of strength and that's a very attractive thing somebody who stands up for what they believe in even when it's not convenient even when it might irritate other people or even when it compromises like the thing you really want to do, the comfortable thing, the thing that's going to make you feel good, that is what being a man is. That's what being a self-actualized human is. It's making the hard choice when it's not convenient.

1:16:04And back to what we were saying earlier about the judging that comes in the vegan community, this is where I think the absolute message of someone must be vegan in order for it to be successful tick. I think what you're talking about there, someone's value someone values animal welfare they value the environment they also value their health and so i think the aspiration to eat as plant exclusive as possible based on looking at those three different things myself that's that's where i've landed and so it's difficult from the outside to judge someone based on the way they're eating because only they can do that reconciliation only they when their head hits the pillow at night are they are they eating as as kind of plant-based as possible in a way that leaves them feeling healthy leaves them feeling nourished leaves them feeling good in their body and is also great for the environment and and so to me that seems like that is the strongest message to communicate outwards and then let every individual assess what what feels right for them and where they land All right.

1:17:17So to bring this to a conclusion, hopefully we've rearranged some thinking around how to approach this lifestyle or how to conceptualize it. But let's leave people with some practical ways to get started. So if you're encouraged by what you've heard and you're curious about how you might begin the process of eating a more plant predominant diet. What is the best way to do that, Simon? And I'll highlight, I want people to know you can have the physical fitness and the body that you want and eat in a way that's good for your health, good for the environment, animal welfare. So you can have it all and have your values aligned.

1:18:03And it doesn't have to be complicated. I think sometimes we run the risk of overcomplicating this. It's not eating as much red meat and white meat and processed meat to start with and instead starting to eat more legumes what i mean by legumes tofu tempeh lentils beans chickpeas and yes those foods by themselves like most animal proteins pretty bland so season them use the flavors that you currently like in your cooking and you can make them taste really good they're really just a flavor vehicle you you do need to pay attention to protein so So don't just take the animal proteins out and not consider what you're replacing them with.

1:18:45Get 1.2 grams per kilogram at least. If you're really physically active, get 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram and throw in a protein shake in the morning or afternoon after you train and put peanut butter and whatever milk you're using and berries and dark leafy greens in there. And then all of a sudden that contains another 40 grams of protein and a lot of nutrients. Above that, I think at a high level for someone that's dipping their toes into this, take a multivitamin as an insurance policy. You could refine that later and go more strategic on individual supplements, but start with the multivitamin and a DHA EPA omega-3 supplement, which is fish oil or algae oil.

1:19:32That's really as complex as it needs to be as a starting point. and across the week trying to eat lots of fruits and vegetables and whole grains and nuts and seeds. That's a good way to start. If you want to get deeper into the weeds, you can pick up Simon's book, The Proof is in the Plants, and tune into Simon's podcast, The Proof, where he sits down with all of these nutrition scientists and they go deep into the weeds on the research and what we know what we still are trying to find out. Also, you can pick up Finding Ultra, my memoir in the appendices in the back of that. I have like 50 pages of like how I do it and how I've made it work as an ultra endurance athlete doing double Ironmans and all kinds of crazy challenges.

1:20:21We also have two cookbooks, The Plant Power Way and The Plant Power Way Italia. And I too have I've hosted many research scientists on my podcast over the years, but you can go back and just search Rich Roll Simon Hill and you'll find the many episodes that we've done. We must have done like a dozen at this point or something like that. So there's plenty there for you, for those who are eager to learn. And the water's warm over here. I would say that Simon has done an admirable job of modeling an aspirational lifestyle. You're very fit and successful and have a beautiful partner. You're in a loving relationship.

1:21:02I've been married for a long time. And I'm a parent with children and running a business while also acquitting myself as an athlete in my later decades. And so this is not only possible. I actually find it to be an aspirational way to live. And if it wasn't, I wouldn't still be living it. Thank you very much, Rich, for having me again. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. I appreciate you and always appreciate coming on. And I love the feedback I get from your community. So it's a pleasure. Cool. And to be continued. All right. Peace. More plants.

1:21:56You you