Zac Clark on Addiction, Recovery and a Life of Service

29:14I was going to have four kids and I was going to recreate the same life that my parents gave me and give that to the next generation. Yeah. And just find whatever job would allow you to pay the bills and have the house with the car. That's what I did. Have the kids. That's what I did. I got out of college and I got my first job as a recruiter. It was like your classic boiler room environment. There's a cube farm and a bunch of phones. And if the number next to your name is good enough, you can do whatever the hell you want. and I learned that very quickly. Like I knew how to work a system. And so in a sales or commissions job, I found the guys in the office that partied and got my numbers up and that fed my ability to.

29:57Sure. As long as the numbers are up, then you can do whatever you want. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. You still are able to be on the mound and throw the pitch, you know, or show up on time at work and make the calls and get your numbers where they need to be, then you can drink as much as you want. And that's what's so confusing to parents and family members. Because? If Zach is showing up, he's getting a degree, he's performing well on the baseball field, he's now got a job, he's got this beautiful girlfriend, there's no possible way that he's an alcoholic and so when the wheels start to come off it's very very confusing that's why i always say like the person who's got it hardest after me and you is the family because they are there is no playbook on how to approach this yeah but these are all motivated by denial like the the the need and the desire to be able to perpetuate the drinking and the using will create enough energy to make sure that everything is all those boxes are checked because you know that if they're checked nobody can say anything to you and you can give yourself permission to go crazy and the family's happy or at least they're you know they have their own denial mechanism around what's happening.

31:21And this will allow you to perpetuate your relationship with substances in a way that if those boxes aren't checked, you're going to have to confront it and face it. And that's, that's something you don't want to do. Right. And I don't, I mean, you asked the question, would I have been able to kind of drink like a gentleman or kind of drink, you know, the great obsession of every alcoholic is to drink like a normal man. Right. And And my answer was very quickly, no. But I do - But keeping it together just enough out of the need to preserve that relationship. Yeah. And what happens is I end up - So it's kind of the beginning of the opiates.

32:06Opiates are starting to kind of show up. Some of your buddies are kind of, hey, I got some of these PERC-10s or these PERC-5s or these Roxaset, which are the 30 milligrams with no Tylenol in them. And, you know, I had experimented with them a couple of times just being out on a Friday night. And I remember one time I got sick, I swore off, like, I'll never do those things again. And then it is Memorial Day weekend. If I graduated, so it must have been like 04 Memorial Day weekend. And me and my buddies historically will pack our cars up, beer, meat, whatever it is, go down the Jersey Shore and spend a weekend.

32:45And so we're out kind of the night before that trip at a bar in Philadelphia, which is South Jersey, right over the bridge. So we used to go out in Philadelphia a lot. And I actually wasn't drinking. And I had been seeing kind of these kaleidoscopes when I would close my eyes. And I never told anyone because I felt like it was probably just a product of the way I was living. I was embarrassed. So I fall over and this bouncer, I almost get in a fight. He kicks me out. I said, dude, I'm not drinking. Like I'm actually, there's something wrong with me. doesn't believe me proceeds to kick me out i go back to my parents house that night i sleep in i wake up the next morning i say there's something wrong with me and no one believes me mom and dad are like you're full of shit it's just another hangover and i don't know why and this is probably my first spiritual experience i took myself to this like side of the road x-ray imaging spot I don't know if I called, but somehow I got an appointment and I go in and this lady does a scan Memorial Day weekend.

33:52And she basically says, you're not going anywhere. The only place you're going is right to the hospital. I said, what are you talking about? She said, there's something on your brain that we need to get out like yesterday. And so within 24 hours, I'm at this bar getting kicked out, waking up my parents' house to that night being at University of Penn Hospital with my parents by my side, going into surgery the next morning and my surgeon coming in and saying, like, do you know what's happening tomorrow? I said, I think so. I'm having brain surgery. And there was no time to process. There was no time to talk about it.

34:25It's just we are doing this and we are going to figure the rest of it out later. A brain tumor, like a glioma? So it was a cavernoma. so basically your hypothalamus so if you if you look my hair is actually cut short now um you can we can show a picture of it but i had this kind of crater on the back of my head and so there was this growth it ended up being non-cancerous growing on the back on all my hypothalamus which was contributing to the balance the kaleidoscopes all my motor skills were kind of going and so they had to go in it had birds nested and it had kind of like started to grow and it was at risk of rupturing or whatever was next and so and they didn't know that they didn't know it was going to be benign they they had to go in and this is 20 some odd years ago so they had to get in there and kind of figure it out and i just remember the doctor came in and kind of said this is a really serious surgery is there anything you'd like to say to your parents before you i'm like am i gonna to die what are you guys not telling me right and and and i i don't think there's any bedside manner or way to perfect that conversation and the doc just said he's like it's a really serious surgery and you're what like 25 26 24 that's terrifying terrifying now what happens is i get the surgery i come out of it i remember like waking up in the icu and like the catheters in and your butt naked and you're kind of like i was in the hospital for about 20 days because the way it affected i mean i was like occupational therapy making grilled cheese playing memory up one step down one step but the thing that i remember the most is whatever this woman is putting in my arm this is the most painful moment of my life and this medicine she's giving me is completely wiping out that pain and that was a feeling that i was going to remember and go chase as hard as i could yeah it's so interesting you which is the opioids if you're wondering that's like she was it was dilaudid it was more yeah the non-addict would come out of that experience with a greater appreciation for every moment of life like i'm so grateful to be alive like i just want to get the most out of my limited time i've been given a second chance blah blah blah the addict is like oh this i'm gonna do i'm gonna go i'm going in this direction yes you know yes which is very difficult for somebody who isn't an addict to get their head around like how could you make that decision exactly what you said if you ever i don't know if you're like me like i've pictured my funeral at times like what that would look like and i kind of got to see it because this hospital room was just filled with people day after day bringing soft pretzels and water ice and watching the phillies game and the whole time all i'm thinking about is i get to get out of here and have this cape right or this mask or this shield to hide behind and go drink like i really want to drink.

37:48And whatever this nurse is putting in my arm, I'm going to go find and I'm going to use as much of it as I can because I feel fantastic. And the thing that I think people misinterpret about opioid use is the initial high actually gives you energy and makes you, it allows you to focus. So when you're dosed properly and you're on opioids, it's not this nodding out overdosing presentation. It's actually someone who's like really alert and awake and focused. And I experienced that. And then I became convinced that I needed it to do everything in my life. This episode is brought to you by Gusto. If you run a business, you know what it's like to have an endless to-do list of tedious, but important tasks that you have to manage.

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41:05particularly for someone who doesn't really understand addiction or doesn't have somebody in their life who is suffering in this way like the reason the initial impetus for using is because it works like it works and it makes your life better in the beginning you feel better you can be more productive. You have eliminated whatever emotional pain was causing you to feel a certain way that maybe even unconsciously you weren't aware of prior to that. It's a survival strategy for functioning better in the world. It's just that it always turns and it always ends badly, but it doesn't begin badly. Nobody starts drinking because it's not working for them.

41:51it works it's a medicine that works and it's predictable yes and it's never going to be the same high as the first high but you're damn sure you're gonna chase that all the way to all the way to the grave you know without uh without some kind of intervention preventing you from that yeah i mean you think about the adolescent kid who gets stoned for the first time and they're running in the field and little do they know that is the highest they're ever going to get. And guys like me are going to go chase that feeling for as much as I can. I don't know you that well, but you're a resourceful motherfucker.

42:32You've got a hustle game to you. And so, I can just see that young person out there with the hustle on. I hate the drug addict jackpot. I get out of the hospital. Okay. So, I'm a hero now in the town. I've survived a brain journey. You have a get out of jail free card. I have an image that I can take. And this is during doctor shopping. I can go to any crooked doctor and say, I need painkillers because I have this very, very real image of this thing getting cut out of my head. And all I have to go say is, oh yeah, my neck, my back. You know, like. The timing is perfect also because those crooked doctors were everywhere.

43:11Purdue Pharma, Oxycontin. And it's sad to me. How do you even begin that process though? But how do you find the first – I was never an opioid person, a pill person, so I never had to play that game of chasing scripts and stuff like that. How does that work? I don't think I even had to work that hard. I don't even know that the non-crooked doctors really understood what we were looking at. I think doctors that were pretty well-intentioned were writing scripts for a lot more painkillers than they should have been. So you're just opening up the phone book and calling doctors and making a play. Yeah.

43:49There's no computer systems at the time. CVS isn't tracking how many scripts are being filled all over the place. I mean, this is the stone age in terms of. Yeah. And I used it, but I was careful. Like I didn't, people were starting to get caught. People were starting to get found out and I wasn't sharing. So I kind of had my stash. You can keep that shell game going for a while, right? Before that house of cards starts to fall on top of you. Yeah. How long did that go on? I mean, the deeper I got into it, the sloppier I got. And eventually - And it's oxy mostly? So there's a progression that we know about and that I talk about a lot.

44:30So I get out of that brain tumor experience. I am now - And you're fine. There's no recidivism or anything like that. Today? I've never been healthier. Back then, I mean, I was fine in the sense that they got it out. It fueled my drug addiction and I was very unhealthy. I wasn't working out. I was not doing anything really other than working, chasing drugs and drinking and trying to maintain this relationship with my college sweetheart, which the first thing that I decided to do once I was healed is get on one day and say, will you marry me so this is like this is like june you know i'm 24 when i get this surgery and so it's like memorial day of 08 i guess and i'm i'm like in it like my wife her girlfriend at the time is starting to see like the half frozen vodka bottles because like i'm starting to do the water and the thing i think i'm starting to hide and hustle and still she says yes i get down on one knee, like a good alcoholic, you know, managing my life.

45:32And she says yes. And then we get married one year later. So June of 2020, 2009, it's a weekend that Michael Jackson dies. So my wedding, if you could picture it as like me and all my other 25 year old friends, probably one of the first like open bar weddings, Michael Jackson music everywhere. And it's just a party. I mean, it's just debauchery and there's no there was no ceremony behind it there was no emotion there was no love i mean i i feel bad she was a beautiful woman and her family was awesome but she was public enemy number one to my to my addiction yeah but you're just checking boxes i mean i have a similar sort of story a little bit different but similar in that way like you're just you're just doing what you're supposed to oh this is the age when i'm supposed to do this and i'll get down on the knee and I'll check this box.

46:28There's no sense of like, is this the one for me? You're just moving forward with your life. No purpose. Yeah. No curiosity. That's why I always talk about that word so much, curiosity. I didn't have a curious thought until I think I was in rehab the second time. And so what happened was we got married. We took our honeymoon to St. Thomas. i remember going on this honeymoon and saying to myself i'm not gonna do drugs i'm gonna like detox myself and i kind of did how aware is she at this point she doesn't know about the drugs she sees the vodka bottles and stuff but not the not the pills based on just like sex life alone i mean the opioids kind of take that away so she has to know something like i'm unhealthy right like i'm unhealthy physically i am 235 you know like it's just not a good life but she thinks that's just what she signed up for yeah life of the party right you know just cocktail hour at the at the country club bullshit get people together you know go to the eagles games go to the phillies games always tailgating always running around but that's just who Zach is.

47:48Yeah. So we go on this honeymoon and I remember the second that plane landed back in Philly, I, I think it was like flip phones at the time. I like cracked it open and texted my drug dealer and I was immediately, you know, and they talk about in recovery, like no human power, right? Like if love could have gotten me sober, I would have gotten sober at a very young age but here i am newly married great job house dog a couple cars in the driveway like i actually did the thing i set out to do but i'm miserable and i have no desire of stopping there no intention to stop what eventuated the first first rehab treatment stint you went to rehab right i did yeah i would go to rehab tomorrow it's the best yeah now it's like amazing you mean i can just hit pause on everything and go and like talk to people and sort out my shit workout be fed i know you know oh god if only i knew so whatever it progressed i was i got to a point where i was smoking pills so basically like it's caught you like you're chasing the dragon so you're putting these oxycontins on this tinfoil and you're like, you're heating it up below.

49:05And it's like the pill slides down and there's like a trail of smoke and you're just chasing it, you know? I'm like - I've never even heard about that. I didn't know people did that. Wow. I don't know. I mean, I know about chewing them up. And it was a very intense, quicker high. But I just remember like my lungs and like I was coughing up. Like it was bad, you know, it was bad. And the paraphernalia starts to kind of be like popping up all over. Like my wife found a straw one time and said like, what's this? But it wasn't long. I got married June of 09. I'm in rehab for the first time, November of 10.

49:42Was there an intervention or how did that happen? No. My mom and wife were at a local bar, classic like suburban story, drinking, having a glass of wine, catching up. I had just visited my dad because I had owed some money to a bookie. so this is back before online gambling and i had to it was like i was down five thousand dollars to this guy who was threatening to break my kneecap my dad agreed to pay him off so i'm now back at my house you know waiting for my wife to come home and this is in addition to all the drugs and everything else i'm doing my buddy matt went up to my mom and wife at the bar and basically said to them zach's in trouble and i'm gonna be the one to tell you the funny part about that is this guy ends up going to rehab like five years right he you know like spot it you got it kind of shit yeah so he was like a hero in the moment but i got him back um so my mom shows up at my house that night i'm like what the hell are you doing here she goes and we know everything we know you're doing drugs you need to get help and i said fine you're right i'm gonna get help i shit you not i get in my car this bad old like chevy malibu and i had seen a billboard for this treatment center in South Jersey.

51:02And I drove that night to the treatment center. And I was think that I was like their first walk in customer. I knocked on the detox or said like, hey, I'm here. I need help. You can't just walk into a rehab. You need an appointment. You got to like, so I stayed, I slept kind of like overnight in the parking lot or whatever. And then I was able to check in the next morning and I stayed there for 28 days and I was just completely full of shit. I was not ready. It was just, let's get everyone off my back so I can get back to doing what I want to do. Keep the job. I'm going to do what I've done my entire life, which is I'm going to be the president of the rehab and I'm going to do this thing perfectly so that no one can question me.

51:44I did that. Become the leader of the community. It's hilarious. I don't know if I thought it was going on my resume or what, but the one thing that happened in that treatment stay, and this is a nod to Lois Wilson, who is the wife of Bill Wilson, who created Al-Anon, which is a support group for family members. My wife had started going to Al-Anon meetings. And so she showed up there at the treatment program for a weekend of like, they called it the family matrix program. And we wrote this contract, you know, that they had probably done a thousand times like this bullshit if zach drinks again and um i signed it i was like okay great like well you're not gonna kick me out you're not gonna like you know who i am kind of shit it's two weeks two weeks i made it that was it and i woke up on a tuesday morning and i had i had heard about heroin in rehab and so back to when i was telling you about the dime bags that we would buy and pick the seeds and the stems out.

52:49So Camden, New Jersey is about 15 minutes from where I grew up in Haddonfield. And Camden is one of the largest open air drug markets out there. So I woke up on a Wednesday morning, my wife's a teacher, two weeks out of rehab, had the thought I'm going to go drink. I went, I bought one of these$10 pints of vodka, drank the whole thing down. And within a half hour, I'm going right back into Camden where I had bought weed 15 years ago or 10 years ago in high school and asked the guy for dope. And he had it. And before I even did that bag of heroin, that night, my wife went to bed and I went out to go get it out of the car.

53:30And she heard the car like beep, beep. And she came in and I had it on the table. She said, what the hell are you doing? And I started crying and she started crying. And that was the last night I slept in that house. Like kudos to her. She had done some work. And she said to me in such a beautiful way, I'll never forget it. She was like, I love you, but I don't love this. And I love myself a lot more than this. Good for her. Yeah. Saved my life. Most people don't have that level of self-awareness or self-respect to make that kind of move. Strong woman. And she's, I mean, I don't, I think part of like, I went back and made amends to her.

54:17And it was funny when I went on The Bachelorette, some outlets reached out to her and she had some quotes and I didn't, I just let her, you know, like I think my sponsor and some people in my lifetime said like, let her live, let her do her thing. And I'm grateful for her. And she definitely saved my life. I think my mom and sister are still like in touch. And it's cool. like sobriety has given me that, like they, they can do that. And so that was January of 11. And I ended up in rehab the last time, August of 11. And that eight months, Rich was, I mean, I could sit here for two hours and tell you all the stories.

54:51You talk about being like a hustler on the good side. Like I was a hustler on the very, very bad side. Did you start smoking heroin? And then did Did you become an IV user also? Shooting heroin, smoking crack. Shooting heroin, smoking crack. What's interesting is you went and you got dope without being indoctrinated into it, like being around people and watching them do it. Well, I mean, having them hand it to you or. People ask me all the time, can rehab be counterproductive? And in some ways, my first time in treatment, I was around some guys who, it piqued my curiosity and i'd be lying if i if i if i told you that it didn't yeah once you're introduced to the the open-air drug market and you don't need a drug dealer and you don't need anything but a car and a couple bucks in your pocket it's game over because now i can just totally isolate i don't need anyone to feel this thing so eight months of insanity and just an acceleration of the whole thing and no one knows i'm doing heroin i never did drugs with anyone.

55:57I kept it to myself. There's also a lot of misconceptions around the heroin user, this idea that, you know, they're gaunt, you know, people with like open sores on their arms, lying in the gutter, like heroin is tricky. Like there are a lot of people who can use heroin and you would have no idea. Yeah. I was in a lot of pain. And I always talk about, you go to any hospital in the country right now, they're basically legally injecting people with heroin all day long you know and this is i've never had cancer i know some people that have and i understand the pain there is like very significant and the thing that they're giving them to try to like give that person some relief is is opioids is is injecting dilaudid into their soul and at that point in my life like i am in so much pain the only thing giving me that warm hug or that relief is injecting heroin yeah i had this back surgery about a year ago and i was on a lot of dilaudid you know for for four days did you try to be the hero and like get through it with that like or you knew no there was no way i mean this surgery was i mean even even on that like the pain was insane you know so i wasn't really getting you know the the high version of it because of the pain uh and then i was on oxy for like two weeks uh after that which i needed but i could start to feel the pull like i i got off it no problem and opioids weren't really my thing anyway um but you can just i could just you could feel the like the inner addict awakening you know like that like compulsion of craving and then that and then the kind of covetous like oh how can i like extend this or make it last longer.

57:46All of those thoughts start to come up, which is really scary. It was terrifying. I mean, look, I went, the story I'll give you, and I'm just so grateful to be sharing this time with you. I woke up, I don't know, I was at a Phillies game or whatever, somewhere in that eight months, I had gone to some event and I'd woken up the next morning and I had blacked out. And as a good drug addict, always saves one dose for the morning so you don't get sick. And I woke up in a panic because I couldn't find my medicine. And my wife went off to, or whatever happened, maybe I was living at home or wherever it was.

58:26And I panicked and it wouldn't have been my wife at the time, but I guess it was my dad. I was living at home and he went off to work and I called my friend and I said, there's something wrong with me. Like, there's just pain in my side. And I went through, I got my appendix out. There was nothing wrong with me. No way. Chasing, chasing, chasing the high. Cause I had known that like, you don't actually need your appendix. So you talk about hustle. That is one of the all time great stories, like incredible. So incredible stuff, Zach. You went and had your appendix removed so that you could get hot.

59:06So like, you know, I started down the road of this plan and I remember because, so I get put in this hospital bed in Voorhees, New Jersey, and the nurse comes in and it's my brother's college sweetheart. Her high school sweetheart. Jen, she's like, oh my God, Zach, you're here. I knew right away, this is great. She's going to believe me. And then the doctor ends up being from my hometown. And when you have, I'm sorry, not appendix, my gallbladder. I have a gallbladder. Oh, wow. Yeah, gallbladder, gallbladder. That's even more severe to me. But the gallbladder really, I mean, it helps you process fatty foods, I guess.

59:47But like, I haven't needed it. The gallbladder seems more important than the appendix. I haven't needed it. I mean, I haven't needed it. so so i make the decision that i'm gonna i call my buddy he picks me up he drives me to the hospital i have i'm like in my mind okay gallbladder and they can't you can't really test for it like you can drink some of the liquids and you can see uh-huh but essentially it's kind of you know that going in i mean i'm learning as i go it's kind of self-diagnosed and this is an all-time hustle and i remember so they're pumping me with dilaudid up till the surgery there was like a little period where I had to stop because I had to drink the thing.

1:00:24And I started withdrawing in the room and fought through that. And then it was anticlimactic because I get the surgery. It's not a major surgery. It's laparoscopic. They kind of just suck the thing out. I remember before going under the guy, Dr. Graviak says to me, do you know what you're doing today? I said, yeah, I'm getting my gallbladder out. He said, okay. So, I feel like there was like a hint of him and knowing that I was full of shit, but I went under, I woke up, and I remember they maybe gave me one or two more doses of Dilaudid and sent me home with some weak-ass Percocet. And so my plan kind of backfired.

1:01:00But what it did is during the time I was in the hospital, a paycheck hit, and so then I was able to get out and get back to - You were just bridging the gap between paychecks. Yeah. The lengths we will go. Yeah, the lengths we will go. So that's one of the stories. And then my last day, I mean, I've heard you talk about rock bottom a lot. And so if that wasn't it, I don't know what is. But I made it to like August of that year. And my family and I, we go to the Jersey Shore every summer. We still do. It's a really special time of year. And so we were in Avalon, New Jersey, and we had rented a house.

1:01:42and my brother had just welcomed my nephew Jack into the world. So I'm coming up on 15 years over. He's a senior. So he's like two or three. It's the first nephew. My family's all together and I am just, I'm in it. And this tropical storm, Irene starts kind of like coming up the coast. And I know in my head, I have to get out of there because if I don't get out of there, I'm going to get stuck with this tropical storm and I'm going to get sick. I'm going to go into withdrawals. And so I take off, I take seven of like - But you need a good excuse to leave, don't you? I was going to go to the Eagles preseason game.

1:02:18I see. On a Thursday night. So my dad gave me this, it was actual paper tickets back then. And you would sell tickets on Craigslist. So I went and I sold these seven tickets to some guy in Philly for like a hundred bucks. And I went and copped drugs and I parked my car on the side of the road and threw a surprise party for one and cops came up on me. And I remember the cop I kind of had known or been around. And I thought, this is great. I'm going to be able to talk my way out of this again. And he said, Zach, you're going to jail. There's crack pipes and there's some scratching lottery tickets.

1:02:55I mean, it's a really gnarly scene. And they arrest me. They give me a DUI. They give me possession charges. I go into this jail cell. I tell them I don't want to call anyone. I don't Like, I don't want to use my call. I have no interest in doing anything other than just like sitting in this jail cell and starting to feel like crap, I guess. They let me out the next morning. I walked back into Camden where I'd been kind of hanging out. And the story is I went, I broke into my dad's office. My dad, you know, runs a pretty good company. I was able to get in to his office, made out a check for myself for$5 ,000.

1:03:32And I had two drug dealers and we were going to start a business, you know, like we were gonna I was gonna cash this check and we were gonna go you know do something and I'll never forget I walk into this PNC bank in Camden New Jersey I have this check in my hand at the time I'm probably like 250 pounds so I'm basically smoking crack and shooting heroin all day and then I'm taking anti-psychotic medication at night Seroquel and just ordering Papa John's and just eating food to go to sleep. Like it was a disaster of a cycle. And the story gets me every time I, I went into this bank and there was the bank teller behind the counter took one look at me and she knew something was up.

1:04:17So I handed her this check and she kind of looks me up and down. And at that moment she could have had me arrested, right? Like she could have called her manager, but instead she said like one minute Mr. Clark and she left and she went and called my dad And I always joke, like it wasn't a therapist. It wasn't a sponsor. It wasn't a psychiatrist. It wasn't my mom or dad that saved my life. It was his bank teller, Rhonda Jackson. Cause she went and she called my dad and my dad happened to be in his office and like answer the phone call from the unknown phone number. And they had filed a missing person report.

1:04:52And he just said, Rhonda, please keep my son there. Like, just please do whatever you can. Like we were hoping to get this phone call. and I just kind of I remember sitting in that bank kind of looking around it's this cavernous bank it's this old old building and Rhonda would check out just a minute sir like I'm working on getting your funds or whatever it was and my dad white as a ghost came through the doors of that bank and I get I get goosebumps and he walked up to me and it was like this you know long moment and this long embrace and he kind of just whispered in my ear like son we're going home and home meant I was going back to rehab, but more importantly, it meant I was leaving that life.

1:05:31I was leaving that existence at 27 years of just pain and debauchery and lying. And I always say like, yeah, I had a pretty privileged upbringing, but there was a shitload of pain those last couple of years. What was it about that experience that made it different and instilled you with the willingness to change? I wish I could give it to everyone. I don't know. I don't know why I'm so lucky. And that's probably the thing I struggle with the most, just being around this stuff so much. Why me? Yeah. Why? Willingness is a mystical, spiritual energy. You can't conjure it. it visits you when you're ready to receive it, I think.

1:06:24That makes it tricky, especially with family members. There's this saying in AA, be willing to be willing, but that's like asking somebody to want something they don't want. I guess you can sort of inhabit this willingness to be willing, but for me, I sort of take issue with that. That's not really how willingness operates like it is handed down by god at a very specific period of time you can't make yourself ready until the universe god your higher power of your choosing decides it to be so i don't get it yeah i don't get it i agree with you that was a very spiritual moment that was a very energy aligning moment.

1:07:16Rhonda Jackson is someone who's still in my life. Like I still am in touch with her. I was going to ask, do you go visit her? Yeah. She's fucking awesome, man. And just like such a good person, hardworking. And here I am, like I grew up in this white angle, like this waspy ass town. And there's this black woman who's like showing me love and kindness. And like, it just, it was just such a beautiful life moment for me having lived somewhat sheltered upbringing, you know, and that's why part of why I love New York and my life today is I've just been exposed to so many beautiful humans. So you end up in treatment a second time.

1:07:57Yeah. I went to treatment. I went to a place in Pennsylvania called Karen and I stayed for four and a half months, which was what I needed. Yeah. I think you need that time. The whole 28-day thing, I'm curious around you as somebody who lives in this world now, the idea that you're going to go someplace, especially if you're not going in with that real willingness to do the work. Is that a sufficient solution to set you on creating a foundation of sobriety? For some people. Yeah. Not for me. I mean, I went for 100 days, so close to that, but I needed that. I couldn't have done that in 28 days.

1:08:42It was not enough. Yeah, I did it once, 28 days. And the thing that I just remember about that experience is that no one wanted to hear from me. I was at a point in my life where people were not picking up my calls. And so that, I think, fueled a little bit of my willingness, just in the sense that, and they weren't being mean about it. They were just like, you got to figure your own shit out. And I remember I tell this story a lot. I was in detox. It was me and this kid, Matt, who was a really kind of good looking kid from North Jersey. And then these two girls that were kind of age appropriate.

1:09:20And I just realized the first couple of days in detox, I mean, we're all a mess. But these girls keep paying all this attention to Matt and not to me. What's going on here? I completely lost every ability to pick up a girl. I'm in a detox and I can't pick someone up. And it was the second night or third night there. I remember looking in the mirror and I think it was the first time I'd really seen myself in 10 years. Like really actually seen, like looked back at the person and it scared the shit out of me. And I'll never forget it. And I just remember making a promise to myself in that moment that like i don't ever i don't want to feel this way again was there a sense of relief that you could finally just give the game up yes i knew it's one thing to achieve sobriety and realize like oh this is the most important thing in my life and it's another thing to then decide You're going to devote your life to serving others to the extent that it's going to be your career and your profession.

1:10:33Where did that come from or how did that come about? Yes. I mean, so I always joke, I went to rehab for four and a half months and then it's classic. It's like time to pick aftercare. And I really, I was not welcomed back home in South Jersey, Philly area. My brother was living in DC. They didn't really want me there. and for some reason I think my counselor put Portland Maine and New York City on the on like on the map for me and I went and I visited New York on a pass to kind of I guess be introduced to whatever I was going to be introduced to and I never really partied in this city and I had the opportunity to go to a meeting on a Saturday morning out in Brooklyn and there was probably like 150 people in that room and I'd never experienced anything like it then they said we're going to go to a show of hands right like we're going to let people share now and hands I mean 30 hands flew in the air for people that wanted to proudly announce their alcoholism and then share whatever they were going to share and I fell in love with that energy I just I fell in love with the idea that I could have this every day if I choose to come here and so I made the decision to come to New York.

1:11:47And I moved here in January of 2012 and I haven't left. Moved here without a job. Even though you're from Jersey, you'd never lived in New York City. South Jersey. Yeah. Like most people, this is where the end of their using, this is the end of the line, part of the using story is somewhere in an after party in New York City, but that was not your experience? I showed up, man. And I've been showing up every day for like 15 years now. Like it's the one thing, I'm not the smartest guy in the room. I'm not the fastest. I'm not the strongest. I'm not the best looking, but the thing that no one, you've never missed a Monday.

1:12:25Like I show up. And when I showed up in New York city, like I made a promise to myself that I was just going to do the things that I was going to being asked to do. And that started with recovery, but that translated into business that translated into relationships that translated into really every facet of my life. And that's why when I speak about recovery, it almost feels silly because the things that I've learned here apply to everyone. And they're so simple. Sit in the front row, get to the thing early, introduce yourself. All the little things I started to learn those first several months in New York City, I still do today.

1:13:02Not to mention, hold yourself accountable for your actions, make amends, do a daily inventory. All of these principles, all of these practices and tools, they really are tools for life that anybody and everybody could benefit from. They're particularly applicable to the addict and the alcoholic, but they have broad appeal for anybody who's going through anything. Yeah, I mean, there's a whole movement right now with some of these folks that are choosing not to drink just because they're choosing not to drink. And, you know, I encourage those folks to make other changes too. Because just putting the drugs and the alcohol down for me was, I could kind of do that, I feel like.

1:13:47I mean, like, to a certain degree. But there's a huge canyon in between abstinence and emotional sobriety. So maybe talk a little bit about that. Because I think also in the digital space and in the podcast space, with this kind of amazing resurgence of people putting the bottle down, not enough emphasis or education around that distinction. I would be terrified of what they call being a dry drunk. which is someone that does not drink or do drugs and also does not work on themselves. That sounds worse than drinking to me. It's tempting because that person will think, well, I put that down. Now that I've made that change, I'm good because that was the problem.

1:14:41Not understanding that that actually was a solution to a problem, problem that without that extra work is a problem that is unaddressed. Yeah, I think for me, it's the honest self-reflection. Can I actually lay the sword down and understand that I am not perfect and I do not have all the answers and I've certainly harmed some people and the point of this whole thing that we call life is not about doing it perfectly. There is something that the person who maybe isn't willing to explore what emotional sobriety is or to actually do the work is holding on to. And that's sad to me. It's pride, it's ego, it's control.

1:15:26And that was the thing that when I got sober and I moved to New York and I started to work steps and I started to go to therapy and I started to understand and give myself permission to actually do some of the work and really heal, that I was introduced to a life that I actually didn't know was possible. And they talk about it a little bit, right? This fourth dimension of existence. And Bill Wilson uses this really wild language, but it's true. And it's a big canyon, man. It's a big canyon. Yeah. The program really teaches you the power of humility and vulnerability as connective tissue like your sense of connection to other people in the room is a function of this kind of shared openness of kind of owning your past and being liberated from it which gives you the ability to kind of share it openly and vulnerably and when you hear that, you can't help but feel connected and closer to these people.

1:16:33And it's so powerful. You want to take that into your everyday life. At the same time, this is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. I'm curious your thoughts on this. There is this thing in the program where because it is about action-based tools, this curiosity around like, why did I start doing this in the first place? What made me an alcoholic? We're actively discouraged from looking in the rear view in that way. We're told to take the contrary action, make the amends, et cetera. It's very forward-facing in that sense. But the longer I've been in this world of mental health through the podcast, the more aware I've become of the importance of trying to understand what gave rise to this in the first place.

1:17:25I think we know a lot more now about the genesis of addiction. There was this idea like, well, it was in my family or it's genetic and it's the disease model, right? But we now know that early childhood experiences are inextricably linked to how our brain gets wired and these patterns of thought and behavior that we begin to kind of perpetuate and are hamstrung by as adults so where are your thoughts around how that works as somebody who supplements their 12-step program with therapy yeah i mean i think for me what i learned early on is that there's a lot of this talk in in the rooms around like giving this power away and turning our power and like there's also this element for me of like taking my power back and saying to my like, I'm going to actually give myself the ability and permission to go figure out why I am the way that I am.

1:18:27And I don't believe when I sit down with someone who's newly exploring recovery, or they end up being a patient in our program, I don't try to figure out whether it was hereditary or manufactured or where their substance use disorder came from. I try to help them come to grips with the fact that they have it. Sure. Right. The house is on fire. Right. You have to deal with that. You did not. Typically, if you're sitting across from me, you know, life is not like I'm the bad guy. We don't need to get to the why part. We need to deal with the what the immediate what. If I show up in a blazer and a white t-shirt and I'm delivering some bad news, it's probably not like your best your best day and and even that's changed like we don't do intervention like when i first started working in this field i would do these interventions where we basically bring the family together and we'd read the letters and we'd pull them out of the home and there'd be this cataclysmic moment and you know in a lot of ways that's trauma sure you know and so like when you start to talk about some of the things you're asking me about our our clinical director you know often says and it's not hers it's just recycled content but you know trauma is something that happened to you that shouldn't have or something that um should have happened that didn't you know and that's very very applicable to most humans i would say your pain is your pain yeah and you can compare it to somebody else's but it doesn't matter because when it happened to you it's just what happened and these early experiences that we have become formative but when the house is on fire you got to put the fire out but to your point around interventions like the recidivism rate has to be super high with that because it goes back to this conversation around willingness like you can't instill willingness you can scare people into agreeing to go into treatment but whether or not it's going to stick is really uh about that person's relationship to themselves and to their higher power yeah i mean look i believe more than ever that folks struggling like i struggled substance use like are just they say that you are the age of your first drink and like i i actually believe that and so if i'm really approaching this thing through the lens of like, this is a child sitting next to me, a child, it makes it a little bit easier.

1:20:58And I had this experience this past weekend, I was at the shore with my nieces and nephews, and I am an asshole. Like I am the uncle that spoils the shit out of my nieces and nephews. And we had gotten back from the beach, and I was kind of hosing some shit down. And my one nephew, Liam came back. He's like, Uncle Zach, can I help you? I said, absolutely. Spray this hose and hose this thing down. Then the other one came back and he wanted to start washing some stuff. We proceeded to have this two-hour hang in the driveway, which was so beautiful. My phone was away. There was no big toy. There was no sexy thing.

1:21:41It was just me and my nephews. We ended up giving each other showers and we put the goggles on and we were saying it was a car wash. And my point in telling me that the story is like, it's not about the nice toy. Like those kids just want to be seen. They just want to be seen. And that's what I believe is true in substance abuse. Like most people that I sit across have this deep feeling that they have not been seen and that their feelings have not been validated. And so even if I don't, even if I think they're full of shit am i willing to say like tell me more about that and and like have a response like i'm sorry you feel that way just to move them a little bit closer to this idea that they might be willing to put their hand up and ask for a change where in the past you used to be like get in the fucking car dude we're going right well what ground are we starting on and so it's just this whole thing And you've probably experienced in 15, 20 years of being sober, like what works, what doesn't like, I don't, do we really know?

1:22:45So much of it goes back to parenting. I think parenting is so essential. You know, I grew up in an era where, you know, sort of, you know, I'm Gen X. I'm the, you know, we're the latchkey generation. Nobody I knew had emotionally mature, sensitive parents who were attuned to the vicissitudes of their child's kind of interior lives. It just wasn't a thing. And so you learn to be self-sufficient in those situations and you develop this kind of protective shield that allows you to function in the world in a situation in which you know you're not really being seen and validated. And opening up about your emotions is not going to be reciprocated, so there's no point in doing that.

1:23:36So it's no surprise that then you're going to find devices to make you feel better or put yourself in a situation that makes that pain go away, whatever that is going to be. Yeah, I mean, recovery, and it's the thing that I wish everyone could experience, gave me this opportunity to say, I'm not okay, and then receive this giant hug from the world. and be told like what you're gonna be like you're actually you're actually gonna be okay and it's why i take this shit so seriously you know going back to that question about my mission like my mission is that people don't have to live in pain and suffer anymore and and i do believe there are multiple ways there's multiple pathways to recovery i can tell you exactly how i did it you can tell someone exactly how you did it.

1:24:37You can go out and try some other ways. Yeah. But like the bullshit around 12 step for me, it's like when I get someone that wants to fight 12 step, I say, all right, dude, that's fine. But that's not an excuse to do nothing. And that's the thing that I see way too often is like 12 steps are cold, fuck those people. And I'm just going to kind of like do it my way in this like lonely endeavor which never ends well. Yeah, that's a version of saying, well, all right, you just need to go out and you need to gather some more evidence for yourself. You know, I have a version of this conversation all the time.

1:25:17You do every single day. And I'm on the receiving end of countless emails and DMs every single day. I'm suffering. I can't stop drinking. I can't, whatever. You know, I don't know what to do. Tell me what, it's like, if you're on my channel, like you already know what to do. you want somebody to either tell you it's okay to do that or you're looking for an easier and softer way because you don't actually want to do the work and a lot of the discourse around like well a doesn't work or you know i tried it and blah blah blah like you're not actually availing yourself of the work you're not going in with an open heart and an open mind and with a degree of willingness in order for all of this to function in the way that it was designed to.

1:26:01You want to just be able to do something else or tell you it's okay to not go do that so that you can not have to take full responsibility. Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite lines I hear in people that try therapy for the first time is I didn't get anything out of it. And my response is, what'd you bring to it? Did you actually show up there in earnest and share and get vulnerable and do the things that you're being asked to do in a therapeutic setting. Because if you didn't, nothing's going to change. Sure. What is the advice that you have for family members and for parents who are watching a loved one spin out and suffer?

1:26:36Yeah. Because this is so difficult and it goes back to willingness also. You're watching this train wreck happen in real time and there's that sense of powerlessness. You don't know what to do. You don't know how to be helpful. Should you intervene? Should you let them hit their rock bottom. But it's terrifying because the stakes couldn't be higher. Every day you wake up, you're waiting for that phone call, your worst nightmare. This is something that you're just on the front lines of every single day. Yeah. I mean, in a very succinct way, I feel like the family member, the identified patient is the drug for the family member.

1:27:16So the same way that the identified patient, so me and my story is going out and seeking heroin and seeking alcohol and seeking crack cocaine and this like relief, the parent is going to that person. And it's almost that that's what's kind of getting them high almost, right? Like this story, this cycle that they're trapped in, that they just can't get out of. So they're almost active in an addiction the same way that the identified patient is. In a lot of ways, it's similar and just as insane and insidious as it is talking to someone who, again, is the identified patient talking to the family member because I can make suggestions about some things that you should do, I don't know that you're actually going to do that.

1:28:01And what I can say is that having done this work for many, many years, the families that come into our program and the data suggest when the family is willing to jump in and do the work with the patient, the outcome typically is better. What about the earnest family member when the patient isn't willing to do the work? Yeah. So the first thing I'm going to say, and probably the most important thing is I can tell you all this stuff. If you have fear that your loved one's life is in danger, death by suicide, overdose, concerning behavior, you should never feel embarrassed to call the authorities because you are not going to be able to live with yourself if something was to happen and you didn't pick up that phone.

1:28:57So that's the first thing that I always kind of coach families on. And that's a fine line to walk. I get that. I fully understand how loaded that is. but the old adage, better safe than sorry, absolutely applies there. Once you've kind of moved past that first layer, I believe that one, you need to do your own work. So you need to get your own therapist. Hopefully you'll go to some Al-Anon meetings. You'll find your own community, anything that you can do to stop thinking about that person all day, every day because what we need to do is show that person that you're actually willing to change so the family member starts to change and i noticed this with my own parents you know i remember the time i asked my mom for twenty dollars in between my first two rehabs and she said no and she didn't say no in a mean way she said zach i'm doing my own work and i'm trying to protect myself so I can't give you this$20.

1:29:54This is new. And I was like, fuck. You know, like, okay. Like, we got to go back to the drawing board here. That makes a difference. I mean, when my parents started doing some work and the pattern was interrupted, the expectations were, you know, derailed. So the conversation wasn't me saying what I always said and getting what I always wanted. it. It was, we're, we love you. And, uh, you know, we're available to you when you're, when you're ready to receive help. Um, but until then, like we, you know, we don't really want to talk to you. I was like, Whoa. I don't think the family realizes that they can skill build.

1:30:37If they can learn how to do motivational interviewing, they can learn language that is going to feel good to them. It doesn't have to be so chaotic. And if you've been living in that cycle for an extended period of time, why wouldn't you try an alternative approach? But a lot of times the truth is the family's willing to write, you know, contact at richroll.com an email or DM you or write me. And then when we respond and say, Hey, here are some things that you might want to look into. Oh, but it's not that bad. Well, the general misconception is that's the person with the problem. I'm trying to solve the problem rather than this problem is a family dynamic.

1:31:19And the person who is terrified of their child or their relative or partner, whoever it is, of something bad happening to them, they have to understand they're actually a participant in the problem. And the solution requires them to receive help in the same way that it requires the person who is actually involved in the substance addiction to receive help. Yeah. And there's a whole nother layer to that. I mean, I think about this word relapse, right. And, and I don't, I don't love the word. There's not a better word for it, but families are terrified of relapse, right? So when the person finally does get into a program, what happens if they use again, you know, and learning how to respond to some of those moments and learning how to, um, a lot of this stuff is so nuanced.

1:32:06I mean, the question we often get is like, hey, it's my first holiday home being sober. How should I treat my, or it's my kid's first holiday home sober. Like, hey, how about you call them and ask them what they want and then just honor whatever their response is. So if they want you to take the booze out of the house, honor that response and take the booze out of the house. If they say to you, hey, it would make me really uncomfortable if it's my first holiday home and everyone else is not drinking because of me, then you can honor that as well. And so oftentimes it just comes back to communication.

1:32:39There is a violence around this word and this idea of relapse. Sobriety is not a linear concept. You mentioned earlier, like being a competitive person, like I'm a competitive person. I keep score of everything. And so this idea that my sobriety is something that needs to be tabulated in a way that allows me to develop an ego around how much time I have versus somebody else really isn't in service to me. And this is another thing that I've been thinking about a lot lately, kind of transcending the violence that I perpetrate on myself for having relapsed and for not having perfect sobriety and how it impacts my ego in a not great way.

1:33:23Trying to have a little bit more humility and regard for myself, like a gentleness and a softness. I don't want to keep score in any aspect of my life. I don't want to look at how many people watch or listen to this podcast any more than I want to judge somebody in a room for how much time they have or don't have, or think of them differently because last week they went out after accumulating 10 years of uninterrupted sobriety. Yeah. I mean, I've seen people die, not being dramatic, but I've just seen it. And I'm sure you have, who have relapsed and the guilt and shame. It's the most shame inducing thing you can imagine for somebody in recovery.

1:34:09Like this sense of profound failure that is only going to make you hide and prevent you from availing yourself of the solution. You don't want to call anyone. You don't want to go back into the rooms and have to contend with that. Yeah. I just try to tell that person, this does not discredit the three or five or 10 years of work you've already done. There was something obviously out of whack and you picked up, but it does not. Because that's the first thought, right? This discredits everything I've done. It's erased. It didn't mean anything. I'm back at zero. And maybe this is the gateway or the experience you needed to finally look at that traumatic experience and truly heal.

1:34:50I don't, I don't have that answer, but you brought up trauma earlier and, and, and that it's exciting because I do think clinicians and our field as a whole are starting to get more sophisticated with the way that we look at, you know, like my trauma is like, my mom didn't hug me as much as I want her to hug me. That was very hard for me to say, you know, like, well, it's, it's, it feels so indulgent. You're like, are you serious? Like, give me a break. I had all my needs met and now you're telling me I suffered. In the same way that we need a better word for relapse, we need a better word for trauma because it's so loaded.

1:35:26And so when I reflect on my upbringing, it's like, I can't honestly tell you that I suffered trauma. but whatever happened happened that made me feel a certain way about myself and that is inextricably tied to these patterns of behavior that become intractable in adulthood and even as somebody who's been in the program for a very long time and been in therapy for decades is so persistent you know it's a very this this whole like trauma piece this whole early childhood piece is a knot that's very difficult to untie. Yeah. It's just the willingness. Again, it just goes back to that. So when you ask about the family member, you ask about the IP, the identified patient.

1:36:11When you ask about myself and my story, it's just the folks that are willing to do the work historically have a better shot to recover. And I don't know where that willingness comes from. Other than willingness, in your experience working with so many people and just being this available resource. I mean, you're a guy who just says yes every time. When somebody calls you and says, hey, my cousin is this or whatever, you're like, all right, we're into the solution. You're Johnny on the spot. It's unbelievable. It's so inspiring. What have you learned about the difference between the person who then comes in and is able to establish a foundation of sobriety and sets himself up for a long-term relationship with recovery versus the person who's in and out or can't can't get it give me the guy that comes in or the girl that comes in kicking and screaming saying screw you i don't want to do this 10 out of 10 times because at least they're being honest and you have a shot, they have a shot.

1:37:20The person that terrifies me is the one that comes in knowing everything. And I've seen that person way too many times. Is that a performance or a mask? It's a performance, it's a mask, it's an unwillingness to really just be honest about. Like for me, I truly believe that my word, my life depends on me and my word. And I don't do it perfectly, but I try pretty damn hard to. And so when that person comes in and they are telling me that they know what to do and they have it all figured out, or they're unwilling to take a recommendation being made by clinical and medical professionals, it's really, really scary because in no other healthcare would you see that with diabetes, with cancer, with heart disease, they give you that prescription, they give you that RX, they give you that treatment plan.

1:38:14And most people are going to follow it because they know that their life depends on it. In this world that we're talking about right now, it's like, yeah, therapy though, really? Every week? I'm going to do it twice a month. A meeting every day? Like that's - No, that's way too much. And that's the guy that I see and that's the girl that I see struggle time and time again. The person that comes in and says they don't want to be there and says it's hard and cries and it's painful, like that's real. That's raw. We can work with that. Yeah, there's that adage, that 12-step adage, like over here, you've got jails, institutions, and death.

1:38:52Or you can go this way and it's just gratitude and love and a beautiful life. Do you know why you got it? I mean, can you quantify that? Why I ended up as an alcoholic? No, why you recovered. Oh, why I was able to get it? Yeah. No. I mean, I can say, you know, I was broken and I was willing and I was terrified. and all of those things. But I know other people that have shared that sensibility and have been unable to get it. It was given to me as a gift. And I try to honor it every day by being of service to other people in that regard. But no, I can't quantify it. It's not something that can be distilled down to some kind of equation.

1:39:39Just do this and everything will be okay. It doesn't operate like that. It's just messy and complicated. Yeah, I mean, I've been doing this. I mean, I've had release for nine years now and been working in behavioral health care for 14. And, you know, that's created some challenges just in my psyche and the way that I approach things because it is my livelihood. It is, you know, a business and we try to do it really, really well. And it's hard to do well. Treatment is hard to do well. We are not going to make everyone happy, you know? And we were talking about it a little before we started here.

1:40:13There's a lot of these programs popping up. They have people that are really smart on the front end, and they're creating these really nice healing environments, and they're charging families$150 ,000,$200 ,000 a month to come get all the psychological testing and world-class therapeutic support, and they're leaving there and dying. I don't know why, because probably there's no community. There's no humility. There's no willingness to kind of take that recovery and then actually apply it to the real world. Yeah. There's a lot of private equity and real estate plays out there that are predatory because they're preying on people's deepest fears.

1:40:52Well, the thing I see is - And they can charge a ton of money to get people into these beds and they staff these mansions in the hillsides of Malibu. There's so many of them with clinicians or supposed clinicians who really don't know what they're doing. And some of them are - And you're playing with people's lives. Yeah. And some of them are okay, but it's not regular. I mean, to the degree that it should be regulated, it's not. And look, I get to work with the most unbelievable group of humans every day. And I have tons of colleagues from programs that you're probably familiar with across this country that are truly doing really, really special work.

1:41:31But if you look at treatment as a whole, there's no big brands. like the program like release for example we're 140 employees we have you know 80 some odd beds throughout new york and texas you know we're trying to grow and do some interesting things and set a higher bar for the you know standard of care but there's no nike there's no reebok of treatment there's hazelton people know that and i guess there was betty ford yeah there's Hazelden, there's Karen, there's these big nonprofit boxes that are still doing good work and probably need to get their shit together a little bit in terms of what's actually happening in the year 2026.

1:42:13Rather than operating on a model that was established in the 70s or the 80s. I think that's a lot of what's swirling in this conversation, Rich, is that we're sitting here as byproducts of a program that was started in 1935 by a drunk doctor and a drunk wall street trader and it's free and they don't want to know your last name you know and in 2026 there's thousands of programs and thousands of people myself included that are their livelihood is connected to behavioral health care and that can be really confusing in a lot of ways. Because it conflates your living with your program of sobriety.

1:43:02Yeah. And there's been times in my career where I just want to say to the person, dude, just work the steps. Just work the steps. Just shut up and work the steps. And I've had to pause on that because I don't know if that's actually the thing to say in that moment. And so, you know, what we try to do, and I think what a lot of good programs try to do is a lot of what I've learned by tuning into you and your channels, wellness, movement, when we think of behavioral healthcare, one behavior is removing the drugs and the alcohol. Are we talking about sleep? Are we talking about nutrition? Are we talking about hydration?

1:43:43Are we talking about the actual wellness movement, the wellness component, finding purpose to life. And so, there's a part of AA that I think sells short in the recovery process, which is like - Yeah. We're just going to just hammer nails in front of the door before we go in and as soon as we get out. Never got arrested for eating a pint of Haagen-Dazs. I get it, dude. But if I ate a pint of Hagen-Dazs or two a day for a year, I'm going to be diabetic. Yeah. But the flip side of that is the person that thinks that if they're really focused on their marathon training, that that is going to solve their addiction problem.

1:44:21And I get a lot of messages around that. And it's like, dude, you got to put the running aside and focus on solving the recovery piece first. The running can wait and it will come, but you can't solve every problem at the same time. But that also doesn't mean that you shouldn't be eating healthy foods and tending to your physical well-being while also tending to your mental well-being and your recovery. Yeah, I mean, it's like that warm hug we talk about that we get from heroin. It's like the way that I get that warm hug in recovery is from being around the community. And I didn't know that. And to your point, I have this buddy, Kellen, who's down in Philly, and he's a former heroin addict and he went to AA and 12-step.

1:45:04He's very open about it. And he's fallen in love with running. He's trying to qualify for the Olympics and he's really attacking it full force. And we've talked a lot about that, where running has really become his purpose and his identity. The thing I think he does differently than folks who maybe stop going to meetings, and I'm not sure where he's really at with meetings, but is he continues to lean into a community and be of service and pull from a lot of the things we get to learn in 12-step differently than I've seen other guys kind of lean into running. And I'm just using him as an example who do it and then it becomes their entire identity.

1:45:43Sure. Anything that you're attaching your identity to is going to create suffering and problems. And that includes the identity attachment to who you are in AA. who you are in AA. I mean, I went through the whole television thing and how polarizing that's been for me because I was, and I don't talk about it on podcasts a lot. And I should probably look at that in a therapeutic environment. I don't know if it's a part of my life that I'm trying to compartmentalize or keep separate or that I feel like people won't take me seriously. Yeah. I mean, in some ways I'm held accountable to the entire universe.

1:46:26and that's not to say that's going to help me abstain from drinking and drugging but it certainly is there i've heard you talk about uh the show and saying like they they you always speak very highly of the producers and your experience on the show we have this notion like oh they tell you what to do it's all scripted it's all set up you know to create and spin certain narratives but that really wasn't your experience of it according to you. I can't speak for other people. They tried to tell me to do some things and I very kindly or not so kindly said, I'm not going to do that. And I just carried myself the way that I wanted to carry myself.

1:47:06And so they can certainly ask and try, but at the end of the day, I'm an adult and I get to make my own decisions. And so I don't ever feel like I was forced to do anything. there were suggestions made of course they're making a television show i also know what i signed up to go do and so maybe i'm just too pragmatic about it or i just think about it in a way that just hey it takes two to tango here and a mutual respect is going to go a long way but yeah i don't i don't take issue with the production i don't take at the end of the day they can't air something on television that i don't say so if i don't say it they can't air it yeah all right running we got to talk about running we're two hours in we haven't even talked about the thing that we both are obsessed with if you think i'm a nerd about recovery based on the first two hours of this conversation running has completely changed the trajectory in my life how so it's hard to describe and i'm one of these guys that this running boom that's happening i'm all for it like i think people should all have access to the joy i mean just from a mental health perspective from a movement perspective from a i can do hard shit perspective and it's something that i just i hated it as a kid growing i never could run running was a punishment right if you're play if you played sports as a kid that's what you had to do if you didn't do the drills properly or you weren't paying attention so you learned to associate it as like something to dread yeah they used to call the sprints where you like suicides which is like obviously very poorly named and someone I was talking to was like yeah I made the kids do some suicides I said you might want to rethink what you're talking about punishment right I mean yeah it was like the worst when did it start how did you get into rehab rehab.

1:49:07There was this hill in the rehab center that I went to and I was overweight. And so I basically just started kind of like walking up that hill one day. And then one day I started like jogging. And so that was like a very small taste of running. And then I moved to New York and I started just jogging around the city. It was a great way. That and meetings was a great way to kind of see the city or if I would travel, I'd go for a three or four mile run. And then I really fell in love with it I moved here 2012 the marathon was canceled that year because of Sandy and so then I watched it in 2013 and I remember just sitting on the sidelines on first Avenue New York City Marathon and crying just I lost it watching all these people together and I just thought to myself like there's no race religion creed like they're all just kind of moving towards the same thing which in today's world is so rare it's the best day in new york city of the year amazing just to watch it let alone participate in it i swear to myself i would run every new york city marathon from that day forward and i've done that which has been cool and i've been able to create kind of a whole non-profit out of my love for running which we raise money at the release foundation to provide scholarship funds to folks who you know can't afford behavioral health care services so treatment intervention therapy whatever it might be you don't have commercial insurance you don't have the research so that's been really cool but um i just i fell in love with it man yeah and i had this experience where the first so i've run like you know like 18 or not you know like i think you know about the marathon distances like once Once you've done a bunch of them, you can probably, like, I could go run one today.

1:51:04It's not going to be my best. But I remember, like, my ninth or 10th marathon, I crossed the finish line and I felt nothing. And I said, I got to change. So, I got a coach. And that has been a whole nother unlock of just fucking awesome, dude. I mean, dude. Going for, like, so, like, I was a four-hour guy. And, like, you get a coach and you start, like, what's a 40-mile week? what's a track workout like i was just slogging the most just going out and running and like i have an hour i'll run yeah i'll run as hard as i can in that hour it'll be fine not understanding that just like everything else in life if you approach it methodically scientifically and intentionally uh you'll you'll get a better result that's just it you just said it and that's what my so my coach is this guy mario fraile he's actually ken i know him yeah yeah mario's the best it's great and he's the perfect temperament for me because i can get like way way fired up as you can tell by my smile right now as it pertains to running and uh i remember he took me from like like like the first block we did together i went from like a 345 to a 321 in the marathon and i'm like this is great i'll be running a 230 in like two years you know like Not knowing that every minute thereafter becomes exponentially more difficult.

1:52:31There's this interesting relationship between people in recovery and running. I mean, I've had no shortage of ultra runners. It's just like, you know, it's like honey for the person in recovery. There is this relationship with voluntary suffering that becomes very appealing to the sober person. Do you have an operating theory of mind on that? I know what's on the other side of suffering, which is joy and happiness and sense of accomplishment. Nothing I've ever gotten in this life, and it sounds very cheesy, has been without a lot of hard work. As I embark on these 20-mile runs or these marathons or even just the whole trying to raise more money around it and build more community and get more people involved, It's, you're going to have to be told no, you're going to have to be relentless.

1:53:27You're going to have to experience training runs that really suck. But at the end of the day, like you said it, I don't need to say it. You said it perfectly. It's like most things in life, when you apply the thing that's like showing up and taking direction and following the plan, you're going to suffer a little bit because it's work. But at the end of the day, you're going to get a result that you're really fucking proud of. you also have to be careful though because the attic will use anything as a means to escape dealing with where are you actually where are you at with that like well it's you know it's an ongoing relationship that i'm always trying to calibrate like i think you have to acknowledge and admit and accept on some level that um that it does provide a kind of relief like an emotional relief that on some level drugs would reliably deliver.

1:54:23Running does produce a version of that. You get high. Yeah, you get the runner's high and there's a calmness to being in that elevated heart rate state that makes your problems seem less urgent in a way that drugs and alcohol do. And that can be problematic if you're using running to run away from something as opposed to running towards something. And I think on some level, it's always operating to serve both of those. So for me, I just have to be careful because I can use it to make an argument for deprioritizing other important values in my life if I'm not careful. And I've done that in the past.

1:55:16Now I can't, you know, I'm forced to be still, which has its own challenges and gifts. But, um, I'm just curious about how you think about that. I mean, it's a little easy. You're single. I think you're single. Maybe you're not. I don't know. You don't have kids, things like that. But you, you're running a, you know, a complicated business and you have lots of responsibilities and demands on your time. I prioritize it because it is so important to me. I absolutely get high from running. I can be very honest about that. The same way that when I would snort a 30 milligram Roxaset and get a lot of work done the next two hours, I'm super productive after a 15 mile run while I'm still in that elevated kind of dopamine rush state.

1:56:11And I do try to pay attention to that. I do have significant fear around being injured, which is why I've been so inspired by the way that you've handled your surgery and kind of coming out of that. And I don't know, there's like the Ken ride out, like, you know, this is a healthy addiction, you know, like leaning really hard into it. And then there's like, probably where I fall like a little short of that, which is like, I need to be aware and mindful of the way that this is impacting my life, both for the good and the bad. I don't want to ever feel like I'm going to miss out on a life experience, which I have, because I have to do this training run.

1:56:52And so as I start to look at relationships and I have responsibilities at businesses that I run, I am not a professional runner. I have to understand that. The qualitative difference is that the rocks are easy. Picking up is easy and it makes your life worse ultimately, whereas running is hard and makes your life better. But it can make my life worse. Yeah. If I get really selfish with running and I start to miss out on social gatherings because I worked late and now I have to run 10 miles and sorry, I have to cancel on you, it can have a similar effect as my drug use did. And all I'm saying is I have to be aware of that.

1:57:38Yeah. You mentioned the resurgence in running or this surge in popularity. I think most of that is around all of these run groups. now. It's a community approach to running, which feels new. I mean, New York City has always been a running city and there's always been like run clubs and all that kind of thing. But now we're seeing like there's almost too many run clubs and they're competing with each other and cannibalizing each other. But I think it speaks to this human need that we get sated by going to meetings of being with like-minded people who share a common set of values. And these run communities and run clubs are filling that void in the aftermath of COVID that we need as human beings to be around other people, to be engaged in an activity, a shared love of something, and to do that communally.

1:58:33Yeah, it's a net positive. I mean, it's the same way run clubs, you've talked about it with podcasts and how there's been this like, everyone's got a podcast thing and I can poke holes in all of those things and be upset about a lot of it. And some of the run club stuff is annoying and frustrating. And you've heard like horror stories about kind of bullying or like, you know, time shaming and that stuff. I'm like, that's not for me. And not all this fashion etiquette, you know, like the apparel industry is like really, you know, kind of showed up in a way that like now you have to have a certain kit and there's like almost, it's like gatekeeping on some level, which I'm not crazy about.

1:59:12I like the fact that like there's a fashion sensibility in running now, but that's the not. It's going to level set though. I mean, don't you think it's going to come back down to this like simplistic, you know, you have like the satisfy running company, right? Like with these shirts that are$400 and they have the holes in them and like, you know, people have a couple of pair of, you know, it's like, I like that, but I also acknowledge like that is controversial and like, you know, it's not accessible for everyone. It's something that is fun and available, but yeah, there's all of that, you know, that, I think anything that's intimidating somebody from getting involved in running or feels like they're not good enough to be in a run club or something like that, that part, that has to get solved.

1:59:56I think if the run club is communicating clearly what they are doing, like this is actually a club for serious runners, then it's the consumer's job to go find a run club that is you know more suitable like like we have a little run club that we do on monday nights in central park and we have a one mile walk option and that's more just to bring people together around mental health and the most someone's doing is the six mile loop in central park and no one's timing it but then there's you know yeah it's like you gotta know where you're showing up yeah all you need is a pair of shoes. But all you need to do a podcast is a pair of microphones.

2:00:40Maybe that's not the best. Yeah. It's like in the same way that you're saying, oh, we'll all just remember that running is a very basic thing. I keep thinking, well, eventually we're going to remember that the value proposition of podcasts is that it's a portable form of medium that you put into your ears and you can do something else while you're doing it but culture seems to be saying that this needs to be a television show you know it's wild so it's wild yeah and we haven't even talked about the zach clark show and the podcast that you're doing now and how you think about like your place in this whole ecosystem of content creation yeah i mean i just i had to start with gratitude for you voicing change taking a shot on me like i'm very late to the podcast game and i feel like it's been a slower burn for us as we try to not figure it out but really create something that has that's a resource that has purpose and the conversations are real and that's all we want to do it's like that question you asked me which rocked me at the beginning around mission that's everything that I do is kind of driving towards that.

2:01:53And there were certainly moments early on where we wanted to quit, you know, and then I would get the DM or the message or the email from someone who, you know, was 90 days sober because they heard an episode. And that truly is, you know, what makes it all worth it. And so, yeah, storytelling and really like taking a lot from, you know, it's funny, Rich, sitting here. I always tell people there's two books that I've read front to back several times. One is called Alcoholics Anonymous. That is our big book. And the other is Running Ultra. And so, for me - Except it's called Finding Ultra. Finding Ultra.

2:02:31I'm sorry, Finding Ultra. I keep calling it - You need to read it one more time. That's okay. Yeah. Finding Ultra, Running Ultra. Anyway, thank you for the correction. Maybe I should have titled it Running Ultra. You're not the first person to think about it. But anyway, you guys took a shot on me and welcomed me into your network. And there's some cool people doing cool things. And that's really what it's about for us. And hopefully some of that collaboration and community that you're building, we can kind of benefit from and vice versa. Well, I'm super proud to be working with you. when we started Voicing Change, the idea was to identify and the people that I think are very worthy voices doing good work and being very intentional and conscious about what they're sharing with the world and being able to step in and hopefully amplify and sort out whatever kind of like learning curve the creator has to put them in the best position to have their message broadly heard.

2:03:35And as I mentioned to you before we even started, like you're, you were at the top of this list always. And yes, maybe you're a little later in this, you know, kind of evolution of this medium, but it's still early days here. Everyone thinks it's, yes, it's, there's a, everyone's got a podcast, very saturated, But that doesn't mean that there isn't room for really good voices who have something important to say. And you're somebody who's doing that. And so for anyone who is new to Zach and his story and to what he's doing with release recovery, like check out the Zach Clark show. Like, I really think that these recovery oriented podcasts are important and we need a diversity of voices.

2:04:18Like, I love what Dave Manheim is doing at Dopey. Like it's fantastic. He has a very certain flavor to him. And he's cultivated an incredible audience. But we also need like guys like you who are speaking the same language, but maybe reaching a different aspect of, you know, a different audience that needs to hear what you have to share. I appreciate that. And I'm just grateful. I really am, you know, and I don't know where, This thing goes, I feel like... It's very clear to me why I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm just going to kind of stay at it.

2:05:06And I know I referenced it earlier, but that whole idea that you've never missed a Monday, for me, that is my most important quality that I just keep showing up. And it's something that I think a lot of people discount and discredit in this world. with all the new technology and new ways of doing things. You don't have to be the smartest guy in the room to just keep showing up. Recovery taught me that, but more importantly, I've learned that in my business dealings and in life. I feel very blessed and just grateful that you're sharing this time with me, honestly. Congrats on 1 ,000, by the way.

2:05:41I have to be honest. I listened to you when I run, full disclosure and i got a little choked up when they went back and we're playing a clip from episode four and just thinking about the moments that have transpired since that it's pretty cool it's surreal it's been a surreal journey it hasn't been easy uh but it's it's been such a gift i mean the the gift is twofold one uh i it it keeps me curious and interested and it's just the ultimate device to meet people who inspire you in various ways and continue to learn from them. But the service piece of being able to share that and know that it's benefiting other people, like there's no greater gift.

2:06:26And you're somebody whose your whole life is about service and the meaning that that has and the purpose that that has given your life is very inspiring to me. it's the most important thing to serve others and just to because if i don't i'm just sitting there thinking about myself and i think for me and you we understand that having been at this thing for a while the obsession of the mind is not a good place it's not where you want to live no and people don't understand that they think it's if i could afford to just sit around and think about myself and and not give give give i i probably would but my life depends on the opposite.

2:07:05Yeah. You think that indulging that would move your life forward, but it's actually regressive. Yeah. It moves your life in the wrong way. Yeah. I don't get out of bed when I'm thinking about myself. I have to get out of my self-obsession in order to function. And ironically, shockingly, I'm much happier when I'm invested in the welfare of other people. I'll never forget my sponsor in early days said, you're going to call three other alcoholics a day. So why the hell am I going to, it's like, was this some kind of dating? So I go, I don't have, I don't need friends. And he, he see like hit me right between the eyes.

2:07:43He said, if you call three other guys a day and you ask them how their day is going, you can't possibly be thinking about yourself. And those are just like the little nuggets I got in the rooms and recovery. And I don't know. One of those things that, uh, you think early on, what does this possibly have to do with me staying sober? Like making coffee, showing up early, introducing yourself, sweeping the floors, all that bullshit. It's only in retrospect when you look back and you realize like, oh, that is recovery. That is the foundation of sobriety. Did you reach a point where you decided to start talking about it kind of openly and the anonymity piece?

2:08:23Because I think I struggled with that early on and now I'm just like, I've lost the... I made a decision early around that. but it's not an easy decision to have made. And it's also one that I still reflect on quite frequently because every time I'm behind a mic and talking to somebody about their recovery journey, I'm thinking like, am I transgressing the tradition that tells you not to talk about this, the level of press, radio, and film? I mean, my whole career is sort of premised upon violating that tradition. But I think when I started the podcast or even before that when I wrote Finding Ultra, I just thought if I had known about this earlier in my life, I could have, or there's a possibility that I would have gotten sober earlier.

2:09:10Like when I came in to the rooms, I didn't know anybody who was in recovery. I didn't know anything. All I knew about AA was what I saw on TV or in movies. And my experience completely defied all of those expectations, but I had to learn that firsthand through direct experience. And so to the extent that I could save somebody, some of that consternation, it seemed like worthy of potentially being criticized for violating that tradition. And it hasn't been without that criticism on some level, but at the same time, I feel pretty convicted about it. I know that it's been beneficial to people. And I think culture has changed since the 1930s and the 1940s when the big book was written and the world was very different than it is today.

2:10:04And this was one of the questions that I had written down for you. How do you think about that as somebody who's a very public facing figure in the recovery space? It's been hard. It's something I I love AA. I love AA. I love the history. I'm a total nerd for the whole thing. And so I respect it. And I feel like that's one of the reasons I've stayed sober. But there is this glaring kind of piece of my existence that's confusing. And I'll give you a story. Last night, I am running some errands to get ready. I'm heading down to the all-star game in Philly today after this interview. And this guy stops me, which happens from time to time.

2:10:50And it's either bachelor or it's recovery. It's one of the two things. It's not just someone that randomly, you know, knows me. Do you know in advance? Can you just tell, oh, this is a, I know this is going to be about the bachelor. I mean, women are typically bachelor. The guys, there's usually something else behind it. But there are, there's a certain level of fandom from the men as well. You just got to drag it out of them because they don't lead with that. But this kid stopped me dead in my tracks. He's like, Zach, right? I said, yeah, I'm Zach. Nice to meet you. What's your name? He said, my name's Keith.

2:11:21He goes, I just celebrated 17 months sober and I got sober because of you. Thank you for all the work you're doing in the recovery community. This isn't a guy that came through any of my programs. This isn't a guy I've ever met. I've never been in a meeting with him. he saw something somewhere along the lines and felt moved to move towards a life that was going to suit him better. And so just when I want to stop and maybe pull a little bit closer and be a little bit more private, I get an experience like that and I have to trust it. Yeah. For those that don't know, the purpose of this tradition, there's 12 traditions in AA and one of them is around the anonymity piece, which is really important to protect people's anonymity so that they feel free being open.

2:12:09Because if you're not open in the rooms, you're getting in the way of your own recovery. Also, sharing it on a public level, what goes on is trepidatious because if somebody relapses, then the public perception will be that this program doesn't work. And I think there is a sort of perception out there in culture that AA is an outdated modality. And, you know, we know better now. We know so much more than we did. And, you know, AA doesn't work, blah, blah, blah. I think you and I are aligned in the fact that we believe deeply in the 12-step program. It saved both of our lives. How do you think about that when people kind of confront you with that argument.

2:12:56The argument about anonymity and why - No, the argument that AA is an outdated modality and it doesn't work. I've heard so many people who've gone in and they struggle and they don't stay sober. John Kelly at Harvard ran the study. I mean, the recidivism rate, if you stick around AA long enough, I believe it works. If you work it, it works if you work. I mean, if we're going to go - You could be a tourist. Right. If you're going to get into the traditions, the one that is most important to me is that third tradition, which basically says, if I identify as an alcoholic, the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

2:13:35So if I have a desire to stop drinking, I can walk into an AA meeting. The only requirement for a gym membership is that I pay it every month. If I just look at the equipment, nothing's going to change. So once I get to AA, there's a shitload of work that I have to do. And that was explained to me very early on. And I still, to this day, take that very seriously. I have come to the other side of it where AA worked for me. I also, you have to remember, run a business that is focused on behavioral healthcare, substance abuse, mental health. Not everyone comes into our program fired up to go to a meeting.

2:14:12In fact, it's quite the opposite. And so I have had to really understand what has worked for me personally and what works for the masses and kind of filter through that in a way that works for me and so to the person that wants to say that aa is outdated or it's in a cult or maybe it is i don't i don't know i don't i don't care to embark on that argument i will say to them my experience is that it saved my life. Yeah. We're in a culture right now that incentivizes a lot of bad behavior, and that certainly applies in the digital space. By dint of the algorithms that favor a lot of crazy talk and contrarianism and outrageous thinking, it takes discipline to play the long game and operate from a place of integrity.

2:15:07But you're a long game player, I'm a long game player. Sobriety is about playing the long game. And I think the kind of silver lining in all of this is that what really matters long-term is reputation. And when you get caught up in what the algorithm wants, you're sacrificing your reputation and your integrity for these short-term gains without really understanding or seeing the damage that it's doing to you long-term. And when I see what you're doing, you're clearly operating from a place of integrity. And I think in time, that becomes undeniable when you are continuously showing up in that way.

2:15:46And people can't help but value that because I think there are a lot of people out there looking for who to trust. Who can I really trust? Oh, my brain can't help but scroll these crazy videos. But when it comes to making decisions about my life, I think everyone's looking for those people that they feel safe with. And you're certainly somebody who's doing that. Well, that was beautiful. And that's all I try to be. I think the way I want to end this is with two questions. The first being there's a lot of discussion right now around this epidemic of loneliness and this dearth of meaning that people seem to be having in their lives.

2:16:29and you're somebody who's very anchored in purpose and meaning. You mentioned gratitude. So for the person who feels like they're suffering in the midst of one of these epidemics, how does that person begin to engender their lives with a little bit more meaning and purpose and direction? Yeah, I mean, I'm big on that word permission. So for that person, like giving themselves permission to acknowledge and understand that they're not feeling great and that they need a little help and that's okay. You know, it's a question I get asked all the time, Rich, and I can give a million answers to it. Go to therapy, find a run club, and still yourself in change careers, move.

2:17:09All these things, in theory, could potentially work. But it goes back to this thing that we've been circling time and time again in this conversation. It's just, is there a level of willingness to actually change? Because the word change is loaded. that means i'm committing to not being the way that i've been for a certain period of time and what i know is that i get a lot of phone calls about people that are no longer with us and when someone dies by suicide or they die by overdose historically those people are dying alone

2:17:48and for me the most obvious way to combat that is to like throw yourself into the middle of some community. Get out of this cycle of just being in your four walls. And for me, I've been able to do that through AA and through running. Those are two really vibrant, awesome communities that I feel blessed to be a part of. And it's amazing what peer-to-peer support can do, like really being seen by someone who has been through what you are going through. And it's hard, but it's achievable for that person who's sitting out there and feels really alone and feels really scared and feels like there's no hope.

2:18:35Simply putting that hand up and walking into a room and saying, I need help. And I'm not saying a meeting, I'm saying any room. You know, show up to a yoga class and pull the girl aside next to you and say like, hey, that was a great class. Can I like share something with you? Just start practicing asking for help. Yeah. It can be hard. to be on the receiving end of being told, like, raise your hand and ask for help. It gets to this willingness piece. So I think the question is always like, well, what are you willing to do? Maybe you're not willing to check yourself into treatment or to show up at a run group with a bunch of people you've never met before.

2:19:13But what is the one thing you are willing to do that is a little bit different? Like, what is that contrary action that you can take today to just drill it down from from the abstract into something super tangible. Well, it gives that person autonomy too. Like it gives them the ability to actually name it and then they're actually held accountable because it wasn't someone else's idea. So I love that. I love that approach. What are you willing to do? And I say that to the family members. What are you willing to tolerate here? Are you willing to tolerate your son stealing$20 from you once a week or not?

2:19:46And so it's all about this communication. All right, last question. And this is just your message to the person who is struggling out there, you know, in the midst of a cycle of addiction that they feel trapped in and hopeless. What is it that you want to say to that person? Yeah, I mean, even you just asking that question, like, I feel the emotion. It's crazy. And I think that's what this whole conversation kind of circled back to, is this idea that I can't explain why I'm here. I have no real reason. And I can tell you that I have a beautiful life that I'm very grateful for and that is available to you too.

2:20:38And it sounds very mainstream and cheesy, but it's just the truth. and that person needs to know that they're worth it and that they are valued and that we see you and that um there's a lot of people in this world who are really good humans and would be willing to you know bring you along for the ride yeah um because that's just what people did for me it was therapists it was peers it was co-workers it was my family and 15 years later like i still experience that even in meeting you today like sure we had a nice conversation but at the end of the day like i get to walk out of here with a with a fellow which is really powerful yeah this was great man uh let's do more cool shit together yeah i mean i think we can i think like voicing changed i think we can actually do some cool shit and you know you hook them with a run or a cool event and then tell them that there's an easier way to live yeah and that's accent yeah Yeah.

2:21:38Speaking of which, if people want to learn more about Release Recovery, where do you want to send them? ReleaseRecovery.com is really where you can learn about our services. We're doing some really cool work within New York City and Westchester and Austin treatment. We've really evolved as a program and as a team. And that's been really under the belief that I think good programs have really strong medical and clinical professionals along with coaches with lived experience and a community that kind of lifts folks up. So certainly if you or someone you know is struggling, like Rich is not joking, I respond to DMs about that stuff, pretty much nothing else.

2:22:19It's crazy. Yeah, you can email me, zac at release recovery.com, like I will respond. You're going to get a lot of emails, I think. That's fine. And if somebody wants to get involved in the 501c3, do you still have bibs available for the marathon if people want to raise money for the foundation? We got 50 for London this year, which is like – we have 140 for New York. We're like pretty much at capacity for that. We usually have one or two floating based on injury, but I can't make any promises. People launching political campaigns to get these. yeah it's crazy these bibs uh no but yeah if you want to get involved there's volunteer opportunities we have our runs in the park like we have a lot of people who have reached out and said like we actually don't want anything from you we just want to do an event like in your honor so that stuff's like super cool like people will just have golf events and write us a check which is we're grateful for um but yeah run a race with us come to an event we have fun yeah awesome man you're legit dude thanks i appreciate you sharing so openly today man you're a force for good in this world and i'm proud to be associated with you and really appreciate the time today thanks man i feel the same way about you congrats on a thousand hopefully there's a thousand more cool awesome until next time