Bella Ramsey Is British Vogue’s April Cover Star | PLUS Jonathan Anderson Exits Loewe

0:05This is The Run Through. I'm Chloe Mal, and today I am joined by Vogue's living editor, Liam Hess, and fashion news editor, Jose Crealis Unzueta. Liam, do people ever make a joke like, you're really living? People are confused as to what living entails. It makes it sound like either all of the other editors have died or... Vogue's living editor? That's kind of fabulous. Well, it's not as good as Elise being the senior living. She's in charge of retirement communities. I make that joke like once every six months on the podcast. She loves it.

0:41Anywho. Good morning, angels. Liam, it was just announced that Bella Ramsey, the British actor, is British Vogue's cover star, and you and Shoma got to talk to them all about it. Tell me everything. We did get to speak to them. I should probably start by saying that I had nothing to do with this cover. This was a British Vogue production. But you're a fan. But I am a fan and it was a fabulous cover. It's a really great story. And there are some beautiful images by the brilliant, legendary Italian photographer Paolo Reversi and styled by I.B. Camaro. And the photos are gorgeous. They have a real regal quality to them.

1:28Bella has such amazing kind of presence and poise in the images. And the styling is really beautiful. They're wearing Barbary on the cover, a custom look, I believe. so it's a really special story and it coincides with um the impending release of the last of us the post-apocalyptic zombie tv show which i am quite a big fan of actually it's not usually so good okay it's not oh you're a fan as well jose yeah i love i've never actually played a video game but i'm me neither based on a video game yes yeah interesting but i'm a huge fan of the show my only cultural connection to the show is that I feel like Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey both had great red carpet looks around it no they looked amazing and they have amazing like coaster chemistry in the show they really like a very great duo so I'm I'm super excited for the season and of course Bella was a breakout in Game of Thrones right that was kind of like their breakout role which we were also all living for Bella also got nominated for an Emmy for the show which is fab Headlines of the week.

2:36I feel like a lot is happening over here. Poor Nicole Phelps and Sam Sussman got back from like working 24-hour days in Europe. And the next day was the Demna leaving Balenciaga, going to Gucci. Dario Vitale. Dario Vitale and Versace. Formerly of Mimmi going to Versace. Jose, why did all of this happen? Bang, bang, bang. So every few years, there really is like, you know, a few six months to a year where like there is a big readjustment in the industry. So this isn't out of the ordinary. It also happens a lot at the beginning of the year. It happens a lot right after fashion month. Like it's a good time to sort of break some news for a lot of these brands because they've just had their big public push for a show, whatnot.

3:22This is also, it's the beginning of the year, right? A lot of these brands are kind of like setting themselves up for September. You know, former Vogette, iconic legend, Candy Pratt's Prize used to say that September is a January of fashion. And, you know, she's right. That's kind of where our kind of like school year resets when we really start. Also, there has been a really big readjustment period in fashion. I mean, it feels unprecedented, frankly. It is. It does feel unprecedented. I think a lot of it has to do with the market, right? The U.S. alone has lost like millions of luxury consumers.

3:53So there's a lot of questioning of like, what the hell do we do now, right? Yeah. You know, Gucci had its own readjustment period after Alessandro Michele. They hired Sabato de Sarno. That was a change in direction. It didn't work for them. So now they're readjusting once more. So, you know, Demna had been at Balenciaga for just under a decade or just over a decade, I think. So now it also feels like it's time to maybe shake things up over there. The winds are turning. Exactly. But you're not going to let him go because he's the star of the caring establishment, right, next to Anthony Bacarello of Saint Laurent.

4:26So they kept him and they put him in Gucci. Jonathan Anderson just left Loewe also after a decade. Yes, that was the big news yesterday. First thing Paris time, Monday morning, on St. Patrick's Day, was announced that our Northern Irish star was leaving Loewe officially. Yes. This has been the worst kept secret in fashion. Jose, tell us what this augurs. So basically, I mean, it is really interesting to sort of see Demna, Alessandro Michele, who was, you know, a Gucci, left in 2022 and is now a Valentino, and Jonathan Anderson, who was a lawyer for just under 11 years, I think. The three of them have sort of helped define the second half of the 2010s in fashion, right?

5:11Jonathan, of course, this fashion has a gossip problem at the moment. Because there are a lot of movements, everyone just kind of loves to break embargoes or just kind of speculate. Jonathan's departure at Loewe was, of course, the worst kept secret in the industry for the past, I want to say, three months. I don't know about you guys, but I feel like when I saw the announcement, I was like, didn't that already happen? Very much so. And it's sort of, I'm losing track at this point of who's coming, who's going. and especially all of that noise on social media of people speculating. I can't make heads or tails of who's where right now.

5:47I need everything to sort of settle down and then I can take stock of it all. What's also really interesting about this, Liam, is that because so many people on social media, kind of the moment there's a strong enough rumor, they're like, oh, that's happening. For example, Eddie Zemont going to Gucci was sort of like a very strong speculation. But people just kind of assumed that that was happening. So when the Demna news happened, everyone was like, wait. Like, no one kind of speculated that this one would happen. So it was the biggest shock, right? With Lueve, I think Jonathan turned that brand, you know, it was like a small Spanish leather goods label that LVMH had had for years.

6:20I mean, before he got there, I feel like 80 % of the world were pronouncing it Lowe's. Yeah, it wasn't a household name, right? And all of a sudden, Jonathan goes there and 10 years transforms it into this kind of blockbuster label that's dressing Rihanna for the Super Bowl, right? Like, it's something, it's really something wild to see. So wherever he takes his influence next, he's rumored to be the next designer at Dior, should be really interesting. But it's also more interesting to see who's going to step into the Louisville shoes now. Yes. I mean, if I didn't work at Vogue and know certain things, and I was just a fly on the wall who happened to have been in Paris and read Puck or, you know, Business of Fashion or Women's Word Daily, I would say that maybe the Proenza Schooler, former designers Jack and Lazaro, were heading to Loewe.

7:09So that is currently the biggest and the strongest rumor in a sense. I think also what happened is that Jack and Lazaro left their own label, Proenza Schooler, which they founded, is named after their mother's maiden names, right? Like that is like a very strong move to make. They left their label right before New York Fashion Week. So you only leave something like that if you're going somewhere, right? It's kind of like the assumption. So they seem to be poised to be the next ones, but we'll see. Indeed. I was interested in the nostalgia and the sort of quite emotional reminiscences people were sharing about Jonathan at Loewe and what he had.

7:51You know, Jose was talking about how he had really changed the perception of this brand. But also he had such a personal output on it. And it was so – it so went beyond fashion to me. It really was an example of fashion defining the culture. And Liam, I feel like you've written about the Loewe Craft Prize a bit. But what are some of the other ways that Jonathan's sort of dipped into the culture at large rather than just making clothes? Well, I think from the very beginning, he was quite adamant about the fact that he didn't just want Loewe to be another luxury brand. And I think he even referred to it as a cultural brand as opposed to a luxury brand.

8:37And I think, you know, the craft prize was a very important facet of that, working with these amazing artisans, makers from all around the world to really kind of lead culture as opposed to follow it as a brand. And I think it comes through in, you know, he would always have the most exciting, most unexpected celebrity sitting front row during fashion week. Everyone, you know, from Jennifer Coolidge to Daniel Craig. Yeah, exactly. Daniel Craig and the campaign last year. And I guess as well, his kind of forays into costume design are an important part of that over the past few years. He's worked with Luca Guadagnino on challenges, of course, and queer.

9:22I feel like so many brands right now, it feels like they're constantly chasing what their customer, what their consumer wants or what they think their customer or consumer wants. Whereas Jonathan has never been afraid to sort of dictate the terms of what his customer might want. You know, he's never he's never chasing. He's always he sees it almost as a kind of responsibility to, like, introduce his fans, his followers, his community to these artists, to these writers, to these cultural figures that, like, they might not be familiar with. And I think. It's a kind of respecting of his customers intelligence that people really respond to.

10:03and you know you buy even if you're just buying a Loewe bag you're buying a Loewe keychain whatever it might be it's like you're sort of buying into that world and that is incredibly appealing you know Laird and the rest of the runway team are publishing their trend reports which I always look forward to because I feel like it's such a comprehensive distillation of what we saw for the past month on the runways and Laird's puns obviously delighted me Her suit pursuits really made me lol. And there was a lot of fur on the runway. Also, so many feathers. I forgot when she compiled them all, which really brought me back to my beloved pigeon walking the runway at Chanel.

10:50And I'm very into the harlequinade sort of clown collars that were at Altazar, McQueen, Chanel. and I liked that the way that Laird spun the sort of Grecian draping that we saw everywhere was that it was similar to Christo and Jean-Claude. Love. Which it's true. There's a revival right now, Liam, in New York at The Shed. That's an exhibition with all the sketches and images from The Gates, which was the installation in Central Park 20 years ago, which I have such specific memories of being so magical. I remember going when I was in college. Marley was like, oh, yeah, I went as a child. I was like, okay.

11:31But and then Margot wrote a really funny piece this weekend on the Mew Mew bullet bras and how to source them and buy them. And very popular on Vogue.com. Apparently many people want to wear the bullet bras. Also a big moment for the fashion team over the weekend was that Timothee Chalamet is really taking method dressing one step further. He bought Bob Dylan's jacket at auction. And so, you know what? A complete unknown continues to be known. I know. I love that Oscar season's over, but Timmy's still. Timmy's not done. It's going. He's not done. I do feel like everyone came back from shows or ended Fashion Week and sort of tried to take a break and caught up on TV this weekend.

12:16And I want to know, Liam, what you are watching. I will say, if Liam says watch it, I will watch it. Oh, I'm so flattered. He's one of the only people who I actually listen to. That's true. So what are you watching? What am I watching next weekend is a better question. That is the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. Really? First of all. Well, I'm so flattered. Honestly, I take that as a huge compliment. I did love Rivals, but you told me to watch Rivals. I know, me too. I told Chloe as well. Adolescence, it's been a huge hit in the UK, and I feel like it's already making its way over the pond to be a big hit in the US as well.

12:55It's a British show? It's the number one on Netflix. It's a British show and it's made by a British team and it stars and was co-created by a brilliant actor called Stephen Graham who was in This Is England, the film and the TV shows. And it's about, I still haven't watched all of it yet. It's about a 13-year-old boy who is accused of murdering a schoolmate of his, a girl. And I think one of the really astonishing things about it is the way it's filmed. Each episode is one take, and it's obviously very wild. Cleverly and carefully choreographed because it moves through multiple locations. The camera work is pretty insane.

13:41The acting's phenomenal. It also stars Erin Doherty, who I personally loved as Princess Anne in The Crown. She's amazing in The Crown. Yeah. I mean, her outfits in The Crown were everything. But also, like, the delivery. Anyway, everyone, yeah, adolescence is what everyone's talking about right now. I have yet to finish it, but I've heard amazing things. So I would definitely say that that is the show to check out right now. All right. Spoiler alert. The Brothers Kiss on The White Lotus. And honestly, I'm bored. I will say, I think I read somewhere, someone pointed out that everybody remembers, I think because The White Lotus is an anthology series and every season it's in a completely different location with pretty much an entirely new cast.

14:25Your memory of the previous season is always the memory of the whole season, if that makes sense. You're remembering the season from beginning to end. And so you're a few episodes into this new one. It's like starting a whole new show. So you can only really judge it when you've got to the end of the show. And I will say that having seen a couple of episodes ahead, it really hots up in these final episodes. I mean, if Liam says it, it hops up. Yeah, I'm like, if Liam says it, then I'll believe it. The pace accelerates. It gets more exciting. You know, it's a bit of a slow burn the first half of the season in a way that I don't think is unearned the further you get into it.

15:01I mean, it is getting really interesting. I think my one note, I love the show. I think Mike Wyatt is brilliant. I think the way it's written is incredible. But I do also think that now it is very aware of the fact that it goes viral and that it is very aware of the fact that we all collectively love the one liners. Yeah. So now there's I do think I do sense or perhaps it is my own awareness of the fact that it does go viral. Right. Maybe it's a little too meta. But like when Parker Posey is like, you're moving to Taiwan. I was like, well, this is just a one liner. We're going to see closed captioning on.

15:36That's a great impression. It is. Yeah. You really told me. I'm sort of not that far.

15:45But I do think some of it, and to be fair, I felt the same way about the latest season of Industry, for instance. I was like, why do we keep mentioning Net-a-Porter? Or like, you know, like to some moments I was like, oh, we're making this for the internet. And I think that's fair. I think that's fine. You know, we all have to sell things. But I do think it's one thing that I've sort of become very aware of while watching the show. I'm like, oh, was this made for entertainment or is it made for reality? I do find that it's the three, you know, blonde biddies who I find is the most obviously personally relatable.

16:18But I do feel like they're like the new Sex and the City cast where it's like, oh, she's such a Carrie Coon. Yeah. I'm obsessed. I also love the fact that nobody knows, can remember all three characters' names. Everyone is referring to them as like Carrie Coon, the actress, and the Republican, you know. Sam Cochran, my friend, was like, oh, you're totally a Lori when she's drunk. And I was like, from Little Women?

16:42And I was like, oh, Carrie Coon. I'm screaming. Well, speaking of the Last Living Editor, we are now on to The Last of Us conversation. I'm screaming. With Liam Hess, Chomenotti, and Bella Ramsey. And we'll be back in a moment.

17:12you come to the new yorker radio hour for conversations that go deeper with people you really want to hear from whether it's bruce springsteen or quest love or olivia rodrigo liz cheney or the godfather of artificial intelligence jeffrey hinton or some of my extraordinarily well-informed colleagues at the new yorker so join us every week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, wherever you listen to podcasts.

17:48Bella, congratulations on your British Vogue cover. We are so excited to share it with the world. I remember being on set with you and Paola Reversi, incredible, iconic photographer, Ibi Kamara, who styled it. tell us a little bit about what it was like working with paolo because obviously paolo has such a specific way of shooting it's all natural light his studio is so special like how did it compare to other other editorials that you've done before it was so amazing it's like nothing i've ever experienced before if everything it was very like still the whole time everything was very measured and very like thought out and still and gentle and like soft um yeah it was really amazing I've never experienced anybody like him or a shoot like that he did the thing where he like turned all the lights off pressed like I guess it was like a slow shutter speed and then lit me with like torches from behind and in front and then the image that's created just as like painting.

18:52It was so cool. He's, yeah, he's so special. I feel so lucky that I got to work with him. It was a really special day, actually. Yeah. And I felt the fashion was pretty good. I mean, you're wearing this incredible Burberry, custom Burberry suit on the cover. How did you like the clothing? When I first saw the pictures and stuff and saw them on the rack, I was like, whoa, this looks like nothing I've ever worn before. I don't know how this is going to, I was a bit nervous. I was like this, I don't know how this is going to feel. And then tried it on and felt like a, almost like a little like Prince.

19:27And so everything was very, I really wanted it to be like romantic. And in the zooms I had before with him, he was saying this like romantic, romantic, romantic. And then I really understood what he meant when I got there and I tried it on and just, yeah, everything was like really elegant. But with really interesting shapes. It felt, yeah, it felt really cool to wear. His vision was amazing. It sounded like it was a really special day. Yeah, it was. It was. I always, it's not really nervous in lead-ups to shoots, but I never really want to do them, no matter what it is. I'm like, I don't feel, it feels quite uncomfortable, the whole lead-up.

20:08But then the actual day was absolutely incredible, and just I was taken care of so well, and everyone was just the, it was one of the most creative days, I think, ever. And to be like sort of the canvas for everyone's creativity was so special and such an honor. Thanks for having me. Oh, my goodness. That's so, so lovely to hear. It's just really, really honored to have you. When you're doing a shoot like that, do you step on set as Bella or do you build a character in your mind and approach it with the mentality of that character wearing all of these fabulous clothes? I definitely step on as Bella because the connections that I make and stuff on the day, I want them to feel genuine and like they're me.

20:50And like these connections that I'm making with people like Paolo are like, yeah, just genuine and real. So I'm definitely Bella. But there's an element of when we're actually like taking the photos and in the outfits, then there's sort of this character sort of just naturally comes out of depending on the outfit. So like costume and film is such an important thing. it can really like change the game and just change like posture and stance and this like princely vibe definitely came out there were certain ones that felt it felt very deep the whole day and all of the photos and the way that paolo worked and the way that we worked together doesn't use any any light lighting wow yeah it's all natural light just angled towards the the windows it was quite fascinating watching amazing i guess that's how they have that beautiful texture to them all of The images, right?

21:37Yeah, and in his studio that he's had for like 30 years in Paris. Oh, really? So cool. Yes, the space is amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it was really special. There was also an element of like me and Paolo. I didn't, I don't speak, I wish that I did any like French or Italian really, which were like his main languages. So we didn't, we chatted a bit, but I feel like most of our communication wasn't verbal, which was really special to have that with someone like him. just I think we definitely just like felt each other and each other's presence in the room and then it was almost like this silent dance it was yeah really he's really amazing what a legend and obviously I have to ask about The Last of Us because I am personally a very invested viewer and I'm very excited about season two I was lucky enough to watch the first episode um and it's out on April 13th, which is very exciting.

22:34Take me back to the beginning of your relationship with Ellie as a character, because obviously she's a very intense character, very dialed in, and your performance in season one earned you an Emmy nomination. So congratulations. Thank you. And given the character already existed within the world of the video game on which the show is based, how did you go about making Ellie your own? Well, I think my relationship with her definitely started through, even in the self-tape, I felt a real connection to her. Like her skin almost was already within me, which was cool to have. Sometimes it's really special when that happens with a character where they just feel like a part of you already.

23:18And obviously there's this incredible source material of the game. So I watched a bit of that just to get like a feel, I think, for her. I actually end up watching quite a lot of the gameplay. I didn't play it because I'm not a gamer. I don't know how. And I've tried since, and I spend way too long in a room that's completely irrelevant in the game, and it just takes me hours to get through it. But yeah, I mean, she is very different for me in a lot of ways. Her emotions are much closer to the surface. She has a real sort of aggression to her and a violence that's definitely just a part of her, not all of her, But that side of her was quite unfamiliar to me.

23:59And it was so cool to get to play that and explore that. It's also weird talking about a character as if they're not you, because they kind of are. I'm playing her, and it gets muddled quite easily, which is really fun. I mean, I had a great time. She's a really fun and exciting character to play. Yeah, I can imagine you feel that overlap between yourself and the character, and especially in season two we reconnect with Ellie five years later and you were filming it three years after filming the first season. And, I mean, obviously the character has changed during that time. How did you change during that time?

24:39Were there parallels between the way that Ellie had grown up and you had? Yeah, massively. I mean, I think most of the growing up things happen, like, during, actually during filming is such a way for me to really look back and like almost visually see how much I've grown in in the outline of like I started in January and finished in August and over that time so much happened like it's so much easier for me to visualize it in terms of like a season so yeah no there were definitely parallels I mean I was I turned 18 during season one and was was 21 the whole time during season two so yeah there's a bit of a bit of a gap like these are formative years for anyone I feel so it's really cool to have that preserved film TV setting for life.

25:27It's kind of cool. Were there any choices that you made to age your character? I think trying to lean into her sort of almost adopting like a more of a Joel role and leaning into that was definitely helpful in terms of bringing her older. There'd be times where I'd worry that I was too much like season one Ellie during filming, which was actually never a note that I was given. was one that I just more gave myself. I was like, oh, I'm worried that this feels too similar. And so would just lean into like when I feel my most adult, and yeah, stepping into this more like caretaker, Joel, I'm in control sort of vibe, which she definitely wanted to have in season one.

26:09But Joel was ultimately like, well, I'd say Joel was the boss. I do think she's sort of maybe the boss of him in lots of ways. Yeah, I'd say so. obviously the first season was a huge hit and there's lots of amazing new actors in the show this time i personally was very excited to see the iconic katherine o 'hara make an appearance in episode one um but also uh caitlin diva is joining the show playing abby and i know that was a really important casting decision for fans of the game and i mean can you tell us a little bit about her character and and also was there any advice that you were able to give her in terms of like taking on a character that fans are so invested in because this show has a a very loyal fan base yes caitlin yeah is absolutely incredible and was such a perfect addition to this season and i thought her casting was especially genius because if she was sort of in talks for she was fan cast as Ellie lots of people really wanted Caitlin Diva to be Ellie in the screen adaptation but she was already in her mid 20s I think it was the age just didn't quite work out so it was really cool for her to come and be Abby in this I just thought it was so clever and she's perfect for it just really embodies the the like darkness and depth of of abby um and in terms of joining a show with yeah like a very loyal fan base with all the new cast members just try to be like it's fine like you're you're here for a reason like you got casted in it so you're right for it and you're here and like it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks like it's going to be loud and there's going to be going to be a lot of opinions but they're they're not for you to like look at and digest just know that you're here and doing a good job and like here if you want to talk about any of it because it's hard But it is hard because you can't help but, of course, you look to see what people think.

28:11It's just human nature. Of course, you do a little Google. And when the results of that Google search aren't very positive sometimes, that can be hard. And so I think I've really stopped doing that now for the most part, which is good. But I think you sort of have to do it to start with. And then once you've done it once, like for season one, now for season two, I'm like, ah, no, I'm good. I don't want to do that anymore. It's a bit like Ellie again. In season one, she's the rookie. And in season two, you're able to take everyone under your wing and give them all of your wisdom that you've acquired.